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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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  1. It's not just the crew. in a quick survey of weekend warriors at the bar at my local club last night, fewer than a third of members could scrape together the $150 million for a base model AC boat. Most of us are probably going to stick to Lasers and J 105s but the AC is sure going to be fun as hell to watch.
  2. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    And finally there could always have simply been a clash of personalities..... i recommend reading the 2016 World Council minutes and contrasting them with the 2017 minutes. At the end of the day, how this is resolved will depend on the business skills of LP and not their legal skills. Brand management is not about arcane details of IP law, it is about culture and passion. It is about developing the love and trust of your customer base. Winning 1 point on IP and losing 10 points on brand value is losing. Compromising on 1 legal point and adding 10 points to brand image is winning. That is why great businesses are run by business men and women, not lawyers! Interestingly, I suspect Bill Crane might have a passion for the Sunfish. Reading the 2016 minutes he comes across as an involved builder. Somewhere along the line, that got lost. My final (and I mean final) advice to Mr. Crane is that he spend more time with the sunfish sailors and a little less with the lawyers. Advice that fortunately for billable hours, most choose to ignore..
  3. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Martin, Short answer is yes....you are spot on. Longer answer is that LP almost certainly has those protections in place already. The Class Association cannot authorize any manufacturer to use the Sunfish name or trademark. LP doesn't need to own the class name to enforce this....they already own the mark for boats and boat components. However, there is a considerable body of law that enables spare parts suppliers to be able to state that their component is compatible with a certain manufacturer or model without fear of infringing the trademark. So APS can supply a replacement mainsheet for the Sunfish as long as they don't use the Sunfish mark or imply that it is supplied by Sunfish. A spare part manufacturer could also say that the component is approved by the ISCA without infringement. As long as this is true, then LP could not deny the manufacturer that right even if they owned the IP of the ISCA name. So yes, LP could and should insist on that but I think they already have that.
  4. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    The process for amending class rules is not at issue. Paragraph 12 of the ISCA specifies rule changes require a 2/3 vote of World Council and approval by World Sailing. That has been unchanged for a long time. It has been carried over to ISCO. However, no surprises here, there was a rule change in August 2017 allowing the class to approve non builder supplied parts. See the advisory council minutes for 2017 for precise wording of the rule change. LP have gone to great lengths to tell everyone that this dispute is NOT about this rule change. But......... I speculate that there is a workable compromise to be found here: 1. If LP withdraws their demand to own the IP of the class name and allows the registered trade mark of ISCA to remain belonging to class members 2. Would the class members agree to an agreement where LP has right of first refusal to spare parts supplied at reasonable price for class approval.....and that hulls and new boats can only be supplied by the builder.?
  5. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    According to LP, they endorsed the second suggested amendment to the agreement from the class regarding independent parts. We might be skeptical. (See IPL's question on spares and parts) BUT according to LP, the reason that LP will not sign the agreement is solely due to the one clause amendment regarding the IP of the name of the Class Association. In LP's last response to the ISCA letter they emphasize that this is solely and only about Intellectual Property. So if Laser Performance are telling us that the ONLY REASON for the dispute is that they want to own the name of the Class Association, then I think it is very fair for Sunfish owners and the sailing community to ask them "WHY do you feel the need to own the name of the class association? " So far all we have heard is crickets. Rather than speculate on why they want to own the name of the class association, why don't we ask them to answer the question. The only half hearted answer we have had so far to the question is that it's very expensive to register the IP of the class name and that LP should do this for them, not the class. But the class has registered the class name. The members have paid for it. It's done. The expense is incurred. The most frequently asked question remains unanswered.
  6. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    I have not seen the agreement that LP offered ISCA. However I have read the August board minutes of the ISCA which are attached to an earlier post of mine. The ISCA board passed a motion to sign the agreement that LP offered! With just 2 amendments. 1. The first amendment removed a clause that handed over the IP of the name of the class association to LP. 2. The second amendment was an addition by the class to define class legal parts. We don't need to know what is in the rest of the agreement. These were the only two sticking points. LP's version of events conveys an impression that ISCA refused to sign the agreement, but a more precise chronology is that LP refused to sign the amended agreement. LP has narrowed this further by saying, repeatedly, that this dispute is ONLY ABOUT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. They have said this is not about parts on both their website and this thread. You might (rightly) be skeptical of their position on parts, but they have boxed themselves into this position, claiming it is only about IP. So according to LP the only reason that LP will not sign an agreement that tLP drafted and that the ISCA is willing to sign ......is because the ISCA has removed a provision that transfers ownership of the boat owners' association from the boat owners to LP. Notably, this is a new provision that did not previously exist in any prior agreement between LP and ISCA. See board minutes. So I think these remain fair questions to ask LP. Why does LP feel the need to own the IP to the name of the Class Association? What is the business risk to LP of the boat owners' class association being called ISCA? If your position is that you want to own the class association name but license it back to the Class Association, why would you limit the license to 15 years and not in perpetuity? I have referred to LP's list of Infrequently Asked Questions on their ISCO website and the answer is not there
  7. YRALIS PHRF Committee Purge

    There is a good reason that so many people race PHRF. For the life of me , I can't think of what it is......but it better be a damn good one to put up with all this BS.
  8. Out of Control Laser

  9. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    http://shopna.laserperformance.com/dealer-locator/ or for parts....Call Jeff Bezos...he stocks a lot of stuff. I just got a new tiller from him.
  10. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Asking again in hope that it becomes a frequently asked question
  11. Out of Control Laser

    Screw the Sunfish thread. This is where its at. Pearls of wisdom from the oracles of HP design. What fun!
  12. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    The relevance of the reference to the 1992 support agreement had not escaped me. If the Class Association and the Builder want to escalate the dispute I am sure there is plenty of ammunition. But the losers would be the sailors and sailing. It takes much more strength of character and skill from both sides to resolve a conflict than it does to escalate a conflict. Why trust LP? Because if they offered to step back from setting up a rival organization and sit down and have meaningful discussions with the Class.....then, in my experience, "trust" is faster and more effective than "distrust" Why trust the Class? Because if they offered to build a partnership with the builder and have a meaningful discussion....."trust" is faster and more effective than "distrust". If you start off by trusting the intentions of the other party, then the worst they can do is prove you wrong. Maybe you might even find some alignment of intention, what if the builder wants to sell more boats and provide enjoyment for their customers and the Class wants to grow and make sure their members are having fun? That would be a shocking revelation.
  13. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    It takes very little to seize on this elemental truth and build something really great on top. You (LP) have to tell them how much you value them every month of every year and its hard. Volunteer organizations are peopled by characters and personalities and the volunteers rotate in and out of different roles. It will never be consistent from year to year but over the long term...the value of an independent class association does so much for your brand that it is worthwhile. In some years it will all be smooth sailing (ugh pun), in other years it will be more time consuming . In some years, the class volunteers may disagree with you and be right, (its always worth listening to those grass roots volunteers. They are very close to your customers) . In some years they may have somewhat impractical suggestions. But its better to have a group of owners who feel they have a builder who listens to their suggestions , than no volunteers and no suggestions at all. But I think you know this already. At the heart of the matter is that you value all the volunteers. You will...no...you must... find a way to empower that association of volunteers so that they feel it is their association and belongs to their members but at the same time respects the commercial value of your IP. And honestly, setting up a rival organization is not the best way to do that. But no doors are closed and expressing the sentiments above, opens those doors wider.
  14. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    LP. That is a positive news. Why dont we pause there. As long as ISCA only uses the mark for activities provided under the ISCA constitution, would you consider a license in perpetuity? Anyone advising the Class, and I promise that I do not have anything to do with the class, is going to be concerned that if they agree to a 15 year license then they are acknowledging that you own the name and face a risk in 15 years time that you or any future owner of LP may withdraw the license unreasonably. Do you see how they might want to have a "change in control" provision or a condition that allows them to use the mark in perpetuity as long as they only use it as envisaged in the constitution.? Would that be reasonable? I bet you guys could sit down and make some progress.
  15. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Team GBR......I think innuendo escalates the tone of the discussion and benefits nobody. I have never seen the ILCA accuse either of their builders of starving them of financial support. FWIW.......I think the model of a builder supplying boats to classes for championships is waning because it depends on the aftermarket. It should be a purely commercial reality. There is either an aftermarket or there is not. Anyway back on topic. Lp has tarted to reply.