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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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Everything posted by Gantt

  1. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    In the wild, the sunfish is also know as the mola. Also, I like this:
  2. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    What Torrid is saying makes sense if there is a contract or license agreement that LP/FR is bound by - I haven't seen what Torrid is referring to - however if FR/LP are wanting to expand production or change production to Asia (and they do for the Laser), they may be referring to their agreement. What Torrid said later was correct about Kirby setting up the agreements for Europe, North America and Oceania (New Zealand / Australia). It was a successful model so far as the ISAF (WS's old name) was concerned, so its not surprising to see similar elements in other class associations. When a class became international, the ISAF stepped in to try to make sure that everything was set up correctly - which included contracts with builders and the various rights holders. Here's some relevant clauses from the Sunfish class rules: So the big question is, who authorized or licensed the Sunfish? What, if any restrictions do the builders have? The Kirby vs LP court case was decided on a technicality - the court found that Kirby did not have legal standing to bring the case as he had sold his rights. Importantly, the court didn't get to test the validity of the contracts - so the matter sits unresolved with different contractual viewpoints for Laser Performance (North American / European builders) compared to Performance Sailcraft Australia (Oceania builders). Last I heard (2016) PSA still recognizes Kirby as the rights holder and pay a small amount of royalties to him. Most legal experts whom I respect agreed that the builder contracts were binding for the ILCA, ISAF, the builders, the trademark holders and the rights holders. This was (is?) disputed by FR/LP for a variety of reasons, a lot of which would not have been heard as it did not meet the necessary legal standards. PS: I'm super busy right now, so probably won't be contributing much here. I hope the above helps.
  3. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    What makes you think I'm not here, watching Mr Tilliarman?
  4. 2016 Olympic Games

    Just 21 days to go to the Rio Olympics opening (racing starts August 8.). And the results are in. At least the 'results' being discussed by those in the know are the odds being posted by http://www.sportsbet.com.au/ Top 5 for each class: Men's Finn Giles Scott (GBR) 1.35 Ivan Kljakovic Gaspic (CRO) 5.2 Jorge Zarif (BRA) 8.1 Josh Junior (NZL) 10.2 Jake Lilley (AUS) 10.2 Men's 470 Mathew Belcher / William Ryan (AUS) 1.62 Sime Fantela / Igor Marenic (CRO) 2.4 Stuart Mcnay / David Hughes (USA) 7 Luke Patience / Elliot Willis (GBR) 7 Paul Snow Hansen / Daniel Wilcox (NZL) 15 Women's 470 Hannah Mills / Saskia Clark (GBR) 2.4 Jo Aleh / Polly Powrie (NZL) 3.1 Lara Vadiau / Jolanta Ogar (AUT) 3.6 Camille Lecointre / Helene Defrance (FRA) 5.5 Anne Heger / Briana Provancha / (USA) 6.5 Men's Laser Tom Burton (AUS) 2.7 Nick Thompson (GBR) 4.33 Tonci Stipanovic (CRO) 5 Robert Scheidt (BRA) 6 Sam Meech (NZL) 7 Women's Laser Radial Marit Bouwmeester (NED) 2.1 Evi Van Acker (BEL) 2.7 Anne-Marie Rindom (DEN) 5 Josefin Olsson (SWE) 8 Alison Young (GBR) 11 Men's 49er Peter Burling / Blair Tuke (NZL) 1.33 Nico Delle Karth / Nikolaus Resch (AUT) 4 Nathan Outeridge / Iain Jensen (AUS) 4.5 Jonas Warrer / Christian Lubeck (DEN) 17 Jorge Lima / Jose Costa (POR) 23 Women's 49erFX Martine Soffiatti Grael / Hahena Kunze (BRA) 1.67 Jena Mai Hansen / Katja Salskov-Iversen (DEN) 2.7 Giulia Conti / Francesca Clapcich (ITA) 7 Lisa Ericson / Hanna Klinga (SWE) 13 Tamara Echegoyen / Berta Betanzos Moro (ESP) 14 Men's RSX Byron Kokklanis (GRE) 4 Donian Van Rijsselberge (NED) 4.5 Ricardo Santos (BRA) 10 Makoto Tomizawa (JPN) 18 Cheng Chun Leung (HKG) 51 Women's RSX Bryony Shaw (GBR) 2.88 Charline Picor (FRA) 3.6 Lilian De Geus (NED) 4.33 Marina Alabau Neira (ESP) 6 Peina Chen (CHN) 6.5 Mixed Narcra 17 Jason Waterhouse / Lisa Darmanin (AUS) 1.67 Billy Besson / Marie Riou (FRA) 2.7 Vittorio Bissaro / Silva Sicouri (ITA) 5.5 Mandy Mulder / Coen de Koning (NED) 6 Ben Saxton / Nicola Groves (GBR) 8 According to this, the likeliest gold medalists are Peter Burling / Blair Tuke (NZL) in the 49er, followed closely by Giles Scott (GBR) in the Finn. Projected Medal Tally GBR 3 x gold, 1 x silver AUS 3 x gold, 1 x bronze NED 1 x gold, 1 x silver, 1 x bronze NZL 1 x gold, 1 x silver, BRA 1 x gold, 2 x bronze GRE 1 x gold CRO 2 x silver, 1 x bronze FRA 2 x silver AUT 1 x silver, 1 x bronze DEN 1 x silver, 1 x bronze BEL 1 x silver ITA 2 x bronze USA 1 x bronze Be interested to hear thoughts!
  5. 2016 Paralympics - Rio

    Just three days until the start. http://www.sailing.org/rio-2016-paralympic-games.php
  6. LP contact info

    (203) 663-7300
  7. None of the posts appear to answer the above, and though my opinion doesn't really count (I'm over 40), it seems like a very good question to ask. I do note that the cost for a new, state of art race winner is $25K, but a second hand foiler - to get you started - can be had for as little as £2750. (The cost for pre-loved foilers is coming down). See here for a cheaper foiler (there are other adverts on the site): http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/mistress-for-sale-possibly-the-cheapest-foiler-ever/
  8. 2016 Paralympics - Rio

    Here's a link that contains where to watch, including live tracking and TV: http://www.sailing.org/paralympics/rio2016/news/40749.php?utm_source=Making+Waves&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Para+World+Sailing+News+-+12+Sept#.V9c2jJgrJOa Australia is off to a great start being in the lead of two of the three classes (2.4 metre and the Sonar): http://www.sailing.org/paralympics/rio2016/results/index.php
  9. ....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

    100% agree, and it's a pretty good design as a feeder class. I think over time, it's going to have a more solid second hand market than the moth if one design principles are adhered to. Also, in mixed club fleets, I predict there will be a healthy amount of bragging rights if a Waszp beats an Int. Moth, much in the same way that happens when a Laser Radial sailor beats Laser Standard sailor (Maybe even more so). I can see the Waszp establishing as a class quite quickly! I think 'junior' is a misnomer - rather as a beginner class - and I can see some sailing both - particularly if a separate class is established and they hold separate contests at different times.
  10. What is the secret of upwind planing

    The following was written for Tasars, but can be adapted for most similar classes: http://www.tasar.org/media/3307/manual_4.pdf The section on planing to windward is on page 7 near the bottom of the first column and continues on pages 8 and 9. I'm not sure I'd sail exactly the same way - the text seems a little dated, for example, I wouldn't pull the foil up halfway - but there is a lot of detail that will certainly get you thinking in the right direction.
  11. 2016 Olympic Games

    Not actually correct. Even if Aleh and Powrie had not been chucked from race 1 and their 6th place had counted, they would still have gone into the medal race behind Mills and Clark. Surely you realise that Mills and Clark only came 8th in the medal race because all they had to do was make sure they finished and with no penalties and therefore their strategy was simply to stay out of everybody's way. If they had a team closer to them, they would have sailed a very different medal race. To say that Aleh and Powrie would have won gold without the DSQ is simply wrong. They would have needed to finish 3 places ahead of the Brits in the medal race in order to win gold. Who knows if they could have achieved that. Using the same logic, Aleh and Powrie would have sailed differently in races 5 & 6, where they bombed in race five with an uncharacteristic 12, then mucked up race six for their second DSQ. Both admit to having a few head issues before getting it all together from race 7. It's all conjecture and speculation about the what if - including not just the medal race but other races prior. On points - if they were allowed to carry their 6th in race on and their first in race six, then they would have secured gold. Statements like this are not meant to address that subsequent races would have been sailed differently - they would have been for sure. In the end, they carried 21 points - and the gold was won by 10 - and I know there could be many spins on it - what can't be disputed was that it took a huge amount of mental toughness and sailing skill to claw back to second.
  12. 2016 Olympic Games

    I spent a day on the shoreline of the medal race course at Weymouth 2012 and what you didn't necessarily get from the TV was that you wouldn't run a Nationals on that course let alone a World Championship. It was small, breeze coming off a shoreline, shifty as hell. The medal course in Rio was much worse. No I don't like the medal race concept. It's not a fair way to decide an event. Very cool that you were at Weymouth. I grew up with very shifty small lake sailing - and to this day love many short legs, shifty gusty winds and flat water. It makes for close racing, can recall 50 plus boats of different classes trying to round a buoy in 0-2 knots - bedlam. In spite of the conditions, the same people keep doing well - this is because of skill and fitness (both mental and physical). The medal race is fair in the sense that it is the same for everyone - however I completely get what you are saying. It's unusual, most other sailing championships are not sailed that way - though there is a tendency to copy the Olympics. Double points are kind of compensated by the reduced fleet size. For the most part, the medalists still finished near the front - there were exceptions. And for several classes, the medals were decided before the start of the medal race - for several classes DFL in the medal race meant less points than when the whole fleet sailed. It's just a little different. There's a big part of me that wants upwind finishes - these newfangled downwind finishes are different - but having competed with both - they are fine - it's still a race, and the tactics are much the same - and it's the same for everyone - the good sailors just adjust and get on with it.
  13. 2016 Olympic Games

    http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/womens-49erfx-medal-race-video-highlight-rio-olympics Yup boring. Dawg Gonit thinks that racing is going to be chopped from the Olympics because it it's too boring. Here's nearly 3.5 hours of racing (the marathon): WHich is more exciting? Which is more exciting, a discussion on tactics for the marathon, or sailing? How about equipment? Or the conditions? The sailing commentary does need to improve - and it seems to be getting better over time generally - though I don't think Rio was as good as London.
  14. How Often Do Ya'll See Sharks??

    I once had a gecko stow-away on a catamaran I was sailing in Fiji. Once I got into some waves, it came running aft - so I caught it and took it into shore. There are Orca in the Pacific - here's a dude mad enough to make friends (filmed Monday a few days ago): http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/destinations/nz/83945845/drone-captures-army-bay-orca-encounter
  15. 2016 Olympic Games

    The changes made for TV are OK - while I liked the old Olympic course (Triangle - windward - leeward - triangle - beat to finish) it was more of a marathon - I love the shorter race formats - more races - and double points for the medal race with the best 10 only is an interesting development. It's not the only sport to be changed for TV / the Olympics. For example, table tennis increased the ball size and changed the scoring for TV. I agree, and the last race was particularly good. Jo Aleh and Polly Powrie had possibly one of the biggest clawbacks I've ever seen - nobody seems to be talking about the two DSQs they carried anymore - the first was dubious - they would have secured gold without that first DSQ. (And I have no problem with more medals heading south). The other racing that was great to watch was the 49erFX - with 1 point separating the first four boats heading into the medal race. It made for excellent TV - I was absolutely captivated. What's needed is a lift in the TV commentary. To forget about trying to pander to those who are watching sailing for the first time - and get into the tactics - and just call it. I missed the NZders blowing their lead in the 49erFX medal race by not covering - assumed (wrongly) that they were covering other boats - but they weren't and allowed the Brazilians to go left, get more pressure and take gold - they were lucky to come away with second. What gets me is that the commentators made very little mention of the mistake. Pretty sure that Peter Lester would have been aware (he's an ex OK dinghy world champ) - they did comment when the Brazilians got more pressure.
  16. Los Angeles Dingy Sailing

    The have an interesting setup, no ramp at the club. Instead they have a single crane where they hoist boats in. Seemed like there were more Lido 14s than Coronado 15s when I looked. BUT - yes - the Coronado 15 offers trapeze sailing! Fleet captain is John Richardson. Fleet seems a little stronger than I first thought, but don't expect big turnouts.
  17. 2016 Olympic Games

    Sailing is on the chopping block (for the Olympics) because the classes selected have closer racing than the 18 footers? Really? REALLY??? Apparently, this means I am thinking in the past - and there is a possibility that I may not catch up in the future. (With respect Mr Einstein, I clearly don't know what I'm thinking so next time I think I'm going to have a thought I better consult you? Sheesh. Come on. Your deductive reasoning is underwhelming. Perhaps the reason you don't like tactics is because you don't understand it? You seem to be suggesting that sailing will be dropped from the Olympics - and that thinking like mine is the reason. You seem keen to cast stones, but offer no constructive way forward. A foiling class? Which one?) In the mean-time (in the real world), Olympic Sailing has a strong following, and the oldest Olympic class, the Finn, does not appear to be close to being replaced for 2024 - I think 2016 was a success for the Finn. The other classes look OK - the weakest class so far as international depth is concerned is the 49erFX. My thoughts is that stability is good for the sport - and development needs to be concentrated on giving depth - including building national fleets, while being open to developing classes. In order to do this, they should announce the classes for 2024 and 2028 now, so we know what the future holds. Perhaps being always three Olympics in advance? Instability has knocked the RSX about - as an example of what not to do.
  18. A piece of foiling perfection.

    R Class foiling skiff winning a race back in 2010:
  19. 2016 Olympic Games

    You really don't know what you are talking about, do you. Have you ever watched 18's racing. It is broadcast every Sunday in season and the racing in Sydney harbour is very, very close. I was fortunate enough to sail a JJ and a few races in the lead up and can say that it is some of the best skiff racing you could ever do, if you get bored doing that, you can't have a pulse. This "very very close" concept is not reflected in fleet sizes or finish times. The JJ series had about 30 entries from memory - which for 18 footers is great! There are very few tacking duels - simply because the boats lose too much speed from tacking. Boats are just as likely to sail lower for a bit to get clear air than two quick tacks to find clear air. Racing is more of a drag race than being tactically testing. (I've raced skiffs, boat speed and handling are more important than in other classes.) The difference between the first boat and the last boat in the JJ series always seemed to be 10 minutes or more, the difference between 5th and 20th was 5 minutes plus. Example: race 6 of the JJ series 21 Feb 2016 the difference between 5th and 20th was 5:17. It's close for 18 footers, but simply put, not as close as with many other classes. It's not exactly a procession or follow the leader, however places don't change as a result of tactics and subtle wind shifts as much to do with handling errors or outright boatspeed. I suppose that's a different kind of exciting. Mostly, the racing of 18 footers is in smaller fleets. I've sailed in non-skiff fleets where multiple boats have finished within one second. Where the finish times given are the same for two boats, so they are declared equal. (In some fleets in which I have competed, that happens several times a year). The Olympic single handed classes in particular had some very close racing, where it was common for the majority of the fleet to finish within a minute. Example, race 10 of the Finns at Rio the difference between 5th place and 20th place was 1:31. It's closer no matter which way you look at it - and closer is to me more exciting. I based my comment on the picture of a 18 footer sailing alone. I find pictures of starting line of 40 plus boats of one design yachts exciting - because it reminds me of the times I have sailed in fleets of that size. My point is that sailing fast boats like 18 footers (or faster boats) - after the initial thrill, the adrenaline tends to decline. Once you adjust to the speed - for me - it gets to be unremarkable. It would appear that you are as correct in stating that I don't have a pulse as you are in calling the 18 footer racing close. (I suppose it's all relative.) Having observed skiff racing for a few decades, my time racing skiffs was brief, only two seasons - so yeah - I possibly have a lot to learn about skiffs. As for JJ series being the best skiff racing you could ever do, I know a few Musto Skiff sailors who would be more than pleased to debate the issue with you. As for me, I will bow to your superior knowledge because on high authority (yours Team_GBR) I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.
  20. 2016 Olympic Games

    Re the 18 footer pic, for those who get their buzz from close fleet sailing, the 18 footer looks like it would be exciting for 2 minutes, then increasingly boring.
  21. Los Angeles Dingy Sailing

    I think ABYC has the best racing in the area. Not sure on Trap boat fleets. Sailing is surprisingly weak for a town of LA's size. https://www.abyc.org/nirvana-other-fleets MDR has some action - but no trap boat fleets that I can see - just Lasers, Lidos, Optimists, Stars and a few others.
  22. This topic came from the thread on the Rio Olympics 2016. I asked Counta to share figures he referred to regarding the state of the sport, here is his response: The first PDF has a diagram on page 16 that puts Olympic / high performance sailing into perspective. It's as good as anything I have ever seen.
  23. 2016 Olympic Games

    Team_GBR - I apologise for my single error, I meant to write Belcher not Wilmot for the 2012 games. Yes I would have been wrong - had I said that. But I didn't. I said one crew at one time. I'm not basing this on reports (other people's opinions). I'm basing this on results and watching the racing when I can - and also by listening to those who competed. I guess it's a matter of perspective of exactly what a country's domination of a class looks like. 1984 Open World 470 Champs: 1st: David Barnes & Hamish Willcox (NZL) 2nd: Chris Dickson & Joe Allen (NZL) 3rd: Peter Evans & Sean Reeves (NZL) 1994 Women's World 470 Champs 1st: Ines Bohn & Sabine Rohatzsch (GER) 2nd: Susanne Bauckholt & Katrin Adlkofer (GER) 3rd: Peggy Hardwiger & Christina Pinnow (GER) Though if Australia 'dominated' by winning, then maybe we need to invent a new word to describe the open 1984 worlds and women's 1994 worlds. How about 'hyperdomination'? No single country has placed first, second and third in the 470 world champs since 1984 for men's crews, and 1994 for women. It's interesting (at least to me) that Hamish Wilcox is Burling & Tuke's coach in the 49er.
  24. 2016 Olympic Games

    Team_GBR, did you actually read what I wrote? I raised the Mackay foils (used in 2000) in response to PhilS who said he thought they were made in the UK. Exactly what part of that was PhilS right about - and what part of that was I out of date with? Methinks you are looking too closely at the foils Team_GBR - there is a bigger picture. Yes the foils are good - but that has not translated into 'Australian domination'. We can rule out the idea that Australia or Australians are dominant in the women's 470s. They are not - in spite of access to the nifty foils. That access to the foils point to the foils not being a 'huge' advantage - an absolute fact with regard to women's 470s. In the men's 470, the last time a COUNTRY was dominant in the world champs was in 1984. Since then, no single country has placed two boats in the top three. That includes 2016, 2015, 2014, 2103... and is hardly out of date. Australians have had several outstanding crews, but only one at a time. Did any other Australian men's crews have access to the foils? (I'd be very surprised to hear they didn't). Although winning the 2015, the next placed Australian crews were 38th, then 43rd. I started to check how many times Australia had two crews in the top 10. I went back as far as 2008 - they haven't. Only twice in the top 20. Australia, as a country is NOT dominant in the 470 class. At the Olympics, in 2008 Wilmot / Page famously sailed an amazingly consistent regatta (very impressive), and went into the medal race leading overall without having won a race. They won the medal race and secured the gold. In 2012, Wilmot / Page dominated, no question. In 2016, Australia won silver on countback with the same points as bronze. No medal in 2004. So far as the Olympics are concerned, one Australian crew dominated once in the last four Olympics. Maybe twice. Yes, Australia has consistently had ONE crew do remarkably well in the last ten years, but have not dominated in the same way that Burling and Tuke have in the 49er - or Scott in the Finn. These are individual crew performances, and not a country's domination of a class.
  25. 2016 Olympic Games

    The 2000 centerboards for were made for Tom King / Mark Turnbull and Jenny Armstrong / Belinda Stowell by MacKay Boats, based in Auckland, New Zealand. Jenny Armstrong is a New Zealander who sailed for Australia. Born in Dunedin (I knew her brother) she represented NZ in Barcelona sailing the Europe dinghy and got fourth. In the eight times that the 470 has been used as a women's class, Australia has won just two medals. In the eleven times that the 470 has been used as a men's class, Australia has won five medals - though four of those have been in the last five Olympics. Australia has certainly had a few strong individual performers over the years - however has not dominated. It would be like saying Sime and Igor's performance make CRO a dominant 470 nation - because at the worlds they have finished in the top three in seven of the last eight contests (winning three). In the men's, CRO and AUS can't both be dominant at the same time - or can they? The last time the Men's 470 world champs was dominated by a country was in 1984 when NZL got first, second and third. Since then, no one country has placed two boats in the top three. The last time the Women's 470 world champs was dominated by a country was in 1994 when GER got first, second and third. Since then, only twice one country has two boats in the top three. (GER - second & third in 1996, UKR - first and third in 1997). Maybe 'dominance' is a matter of perspective.