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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

NED 27

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About NED 27

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    Member
  • Birthday 04/22/1965

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  • Location
    Netherlands
  • Interests
    High performance sailing. Foiling. A-class catamarans.
  1. If the non rule 8 boards are a failure then that is the best proof we do not need rule 8. The lower COE only works on foiling boats. These boats do not need a marginal wilthing option for which you need max power at the hounds. For the topdogs it is either full floating or foiling. This rig is there to stay. If the boards may have extra span the rigs do not have to be so full. Mischa's rig has more dept then Glenn's. Glenn, Stevie and Mischa can already foil upwind over 15 kts of breeze but loose too much height to get it up the foils. Slightly longer foils will make it easier ad will improve foiling for all in marginal conditions. Mischa and Glenn can get the boat earlier on the foils due to a better technique, others will he helped with slightly more lift. Removing rule 8 does not open a can of worms. It just brings back the rule to the original boxrule and will give room for further incremental change. Older boats can easiliy adopt the new sails and the boards with more span. The status quo is not changing that hard. Mischa is using the same boards as last year. What is new is just his sail and his rudderwinglets.
  2. The Melvin and Goodall rig (I did one with PJ too) in the late 80ties as well) were used on non foiling boats. Mischa sails his traveller much higher than a boat going flat or doing the wildthing and keeps his foot quite close to the centerline. If you are doing the wildthing on traditional boats you could not really speed up the boat and to go for more depth. The curved boards and trapezing downwind improved that. We already lost the utra wide 1,0 meter heads and we are going now to the Mischa rig for all foiling boats. Mischa was just as quick upwind in the light as some lighter people with conventional rigs. When he cannot foil he is slower downwind but he only needs one gust to get it up and then he can keep it foiling in as low as 5-6 kts. Mscha's brainwave was that he decided to use max luff length this time and not shorten the mast. That provided a more allround solution. It will be hard to decide for Glenn and Stevie if they should switch to this kind of rig for the Worlds. With so many fast non foilers they might be beaten in the really light stuff and with only discard this will be big risk. If Mischa wins 7 races and gets 2 30's and Glenn or Stevie sails constant in the top 3, they will beat Mischa. Mischa has only one option: Go for his latest rig and pray for a decent see breeze all races. If we get some 15 kt plus races we might even see some competitive upwind foiling by him.
  3. The mast is a Fiberfoam produced DNA mast. For prices yo have to ask MIscha, Fiberfoam or Holland Composites.
  4. Even Dario thinks that Z and L foils can be both competitive. The Z's have the edge in handling and the L/uptipfoils in the heavier breeze. Both options can be feasible and will attract different sailors. People with older boats seem to prefer the L boards. If we allow theL boatrds too we keep them in the class. L/V foils are not ideal nor perfect. They suit wide high righting moment boats best.They work well on the AC72 and the C-class but The FP, The NACRA FCS and the AC45 F are not that quick upwind. More span will lead to more efficient foils, which will both increase performance and control. I prefer put in from the top foils myself and do see the significant benefits of 4 foil solutions especially for small and very light cats (will not work on a AC45!). I do not want to deny the L board option to te retrofitters. The met foiling boats we have, the better for the class. The best thing about foiling is that it makes people smile so much. Whatever developement in the end Stevie ror Glenn do still win.
  5. It was not breezy at all. The first day 2 bft and the second day a decent 3 bft. Last day was cancelled.
  6. I do fully agree with rawhide. Simon you get lost in your arguments. Moths are foiling upwind, so are foiling kites and foiling surfboards. My point is that if we allow foiling, we better foil all the time. That PJ supports rule 8 is kind of understandable (still siilly) as he does not want to keep investing in new boards and stuff. My calculations make sense especially if you compare foil area with other foiling classes. The Dario L's which make the boat fly upwind are quite big and show that upwind foiling is no illusion. If Stevie is right that upwind foiling and foiling gybes are possible then that is no reason to keep rule 8 either. I fail to see why you are stuck to your position. I can understand people who object full foiling, I can see PJ's reluctance to invest when he is selling less boats but else ??. Keeping rule 8 only delays the class' road to full foiling boats at the risk of becoming obsolete when others jump in. I do not like to be accused of giving wrong information. I just share my gps data and some basic foil areas. You ask at what cost? even with rule 8 development will continue. Even Stevie is already talking about new boards and a new rig. If you like downwind foiling, why wouldn't you like to do upwind foiling too?
  7. Mischa tested in Takapuna a decksweeper too with a shorter mast. That one was too vulnerable in lighter winds. Decksweepers have been used earlier in the A-class, but were never fast. It was always faster to have more cloth higher especially in marginal wildthing. With the foiling boats we do not have a marginal wildthing, just floating or full foiling. The breakthrough of Mischa is that he kept max luff length and moved the draft in the sail forward (= more depth downwnd) The Swiss found a long time ago that upwind a smaller square head is actually faster. With the big square heads foiling in gusty conditions is tricky. If you open the sheet too much the boat jumps out of the water and the weather hull will come down. The Mischa solution has much better roll stability and it is the way to go if more and more people are foiling. If most people are foiling all rigs will be optimized for medium winds and you will not be hurt in floating mode. The surprise was that in floating mode it was not too bad either.
  8. Simon is becoming an internet troll himself. Dario's clients are foiling happily with L foils. In Europe the minority is foiling due to the uncertainty in the class. Maintaining rule 8 will only elongate the transition time. Latest A cat foilers do foil great, but just downwind without foiling gybes. That might be atractive for the moment but cannot be seen as sustanaible option for the class. If the class does not abolish rule 8, a new snglehanded foiling cat class will emerge. The floaters have already created their own class and what will remain is a handful of semi floaters in the A-class. What we need is a breakthrough design, One like Bim in the early eighties, The Flyer in the nineties, the Nikita in the 2000's and the DNA in 2010. This time no new hulls, just new daggerboards. Rule 8 is not part of the original box rule and can therefore not be compared with the other box rules. It was a lousy political compromises which might kill the class I love so much. The evidence argument is ridiculous. If rule 8 is maintained the class does that because real innivation is possible else it would have no function. If no performance gain is possible as Simon is suggesting there is nothing to be afraid of. What we need is an foiling A-class which people can buy of the shelf and can race competively. Current status is a project in reluctant development. The class should not ignore relavant developments outside the class. It is up to the class to decide if the class wants to keep earning its state of the art class status.
  9. Glenn did excell on the DNA last year at Bordeaux, he could make the DNA fly earlier than anyone else. I do prefer Stevie's set-up over Glenn's, but Glenn can squeeze so much extra out ot the DNA. This year's DNA is better than last year's due to the new rudders and the autoclaved daggerboards which seem to have a much better definition. The new rudders help to fly earler as well, as Mischa has already shown at Garda. It will be an epic battke between these two guys. Mischa might throw in some great races too, but with only one discard I do not consider him a title candiadte as there might be some races with fluky winds too and he tends to pick up at least one bfd in a series. I am curious how many more sailors have mastered the art of flying this year. Last year only a handful who were competitive over the whole windrange.
  10. Top three: Glenn, Stevie, Landy. Best European: Sascha Walmer I expect Stevie to be the fastest but he might be beaten by Glenn in the races with lighter winds. Sascha will do well in marginal foiling conditions. I do not expect any non foiler in the top 10, even if there are many light weather races. The sub top guys will do well with non foiling boats, so some non foiling boats in places between places 10 and 20.
  11. Simon, The evidence thing is really really a BS argument. The boats with the uptip foils of Dario go really well. These boats foil upwind and can do foiling gybes with an expert sailor. (both boards down) (Why is Dario not allowed to race in an A-class event, just to see what is possible?) The latest daggerboard designs within rule 8 have bigger tips, but the effective projected area is still small. A foiling kite has a main foil of 600 cm2, a DNA daggerboard is 400 cm2 (800 total). To be able to foil upwind we need a lift off speed of 12 kts or less (a kite foils at 12 kts too) for that we need 500 cm2 (projected horizontal area) Z boards. (which is just 50 cm by 10 cm). A better aspect ratio leads to a much lower induced drag. You see that the latest Exploder daggerboard can almost make the boat fly upwind. Just a bit longer foil (more span) will do that. If we make bigger foils within rule 8 you get Flying Carpet like boards which are very very wide, even these work but do limit end speed and the windward board has to be raised in non flying conditions. If you want to preserve the put in from the top, you can also propose that we just allow extra span. Uptip boards are more efficient than Z boards will ever be though (once you are foiling) but with the extra span Z boards you do not throw all potential performance away. For foiling upwind we do not need Veal heal, just a canted board. If you have an active L board and you can cant that with the use of a slider,you are there. Some Moths already use canting masts to set the mast straight if they heel the boat to cant the active board, therefore rig cant isn't essential and actually reduces performance. Active boards can be simple too, see the latest Whisper solution. Active flaps can be used on L boards too. Current A-class foilers suck, they are fun as it is a step in the right direction but still as foilers these boats suck. We better go back to floating boats (not for me) or allow full development. The whole foiling technology is not mature yet, it needs more development and that's why we have and need development classes. Foiling A-cats are an alternative for foiling Moths as they will be more versatile. Foiling kites are even faster and cheaper but less accessible especially for the gerifoilers. If we keep rule 8 we will get stuck with current solutions which are at best mediocre. A Moth sails circles around a foiling A-cat now. With some proper development we will not see Moth style A's but proper foiling A's which will outperform Moths around the course. The windage of A-cats is not as bad as Phil S suggest. The wings of a Moth incure quite some drag too and a Moth is effectively 2,3 m wide too. The arguments used by the 'keep rule 8' defenders are quite similar as used by the confederates to maintain slavery (our economy will fall apart). Just plain BS and history will prove them wrong too. Give innovation and progress a chance. Remember that after the Europeans in La Baule in 2009 where Bob Baier did so well with the curved boards NIkita many people wanted to ban curved boards. ( too complicated, too expensive to build). See where we are now, after the curved board came the winglets, then the J boards and now the Z boards. The boats have become faster, more fun and can be sailed in more breeze. Freezing development by maintaining rule 8 is a really bad idea, it can wreck the class completely. If you want to maintain a certain status quo you better sail an OD class.
  12. The fact is that some people with older boats seem to prefer the uptip foils over the Z and J foils. See the recent conversion of some older BIM's. I agree that you still have to move the daggerboard cases and add sliders. s is true If uptip foils are better we should be able to adopt these. I am not sure as I have not sailed these myself. The class is at risk if boats as the Whisper and the new Waszp become a success. I can better spend my money on a foiling kite or foiling windsurfer than on a limped half foiler. I will rest my case heer. Clueless why creating better foiling boats can be so upsetting to some. We will wait what will happen at the AGM.
  13. I hope we can be pragmatic as a class and postpone rule 8 directly after the Worlds. Then we can see what happens and which corrective measurers have to be taken. If we can trust the process we are better off. Just trust both the development class and the class management process to take any necessary action. Foiling will be easier and not more complicated with extra span, as it takes less effort to get it up the foils, which makes sustainable flight while just sitting on the side possible and we can use other more foregiving sections. Without the extra span we have to compromise performance. With just a few improvements the A-class can be faster around the track then the Moth while being more versatile. This can be done with a four foil solution with retractable foils. If we fantasize we better fantasize about good stuff. It will be a very accessible foiler for new foilers while being challenging enough for the experts. Now the floaters have split we better focus on how we can get the best foiling A-class. Best as in high performance, good handling both on and off the water, affordable and durable.
  14. Hi Lars, The Flying carpet solution works but is not ideal within rule 8. The aspect ratio of the foils is not too good and the wide diagonal compromises performance in many circumstances. I expect to see some foiling gybes and some upwind foiling in Punta Ala, the latest Exploder set-up is pretty close. I could live with a new rule which prohibits put in from the bottom foils but allows more span. Unfortunately that is not the option we have in the AGM.
  15. Hi Simon, You keep asking for evidence, while the evidence is that the rule unnessarily restricts us. If non rule compliant foils have problems they will either not be competitive or we should deal with the issues as class. The whole idea of a development class is that you can try new things. No evidence needed. If we add some span to the Z-board, I cannot see how that complicates launching or would increase costs. Rule 8 limits are too severe and the intention of this rule failed. I agree with you that put in from the bottom foils are not ideal, but I do not wish to rob people of this option as it is a possibility to retrofit older boats. Your fear for the launching problems isn't evidence based either,as it is still to be seen if put in from the bottom foils are competitive. So far all put in from the bottom foils have been foils which needed to be raised at windward. This may not be the best and most all round solution around the racecourse. If such foils become the best performing foils we can have a discussion as a class and see if the extra performance outweighs the extra hassle. This is all hypothetical as I have not seen such foils win a race or championship. Restricting the extra span may cost the class too much. It is an easy and cheap solution which has its proven merits. We cannot freeze current developments as people will flee to other classes when the upwind foiling and foiling gybe is realized there. Rule 8 is not the way to handle might be scenario's. Are you willing to take the risk to outdate the A-class as a class? Keeping what works well makes sense and is what any sensible innovator does. The history of the class show that we have gotten better boats over time, let's continue that process.