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J/111 the J/109 replacement?

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Was the J/111 designed because the J/Boats doesn't own the molds of the J/109? The J/109 is a pretty nice boat. The design is only 7-8 years old (right?)The J/111 seems to really cannibalize their existing 35' market.

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Was the J/111 designed because the J/Boats doesn't own the molds of the J/109? The J/109 is a pretty nice boat. The design is only 7-8 years old (right?)The J/111 seems to really cannibalize their existing 35' market.

 

 

Who owns the 109 molds?

The 111 is a total different boat 2300 pounds lighter, 2 feet more water line and way more sail area.

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Were any 2009 J109's sold in North America or on order for 2010?

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From what I understand, there are two sets of J/109 tooling, one in France, one in Warren RI. The lawyers who put together the contract between J/Boats and TPI apparently screwed the pooch, and the ownership of the tooling in RI is ambiguous. Last I'd heard, it's in negotiation. I'd also heard about some negotiations with the new builder, C&C Composites (NOT = Fairport Marine), but obviously a moot point until the issue of tooling is settled. Obviously, the weakness of the US$D to the Euro prices the J/109 out of the market under present circumstances. There might have been one or two sold in the past year in the US (more in Europe).

 

The J/111 is a completely different boat aimed at a different market than the J/109. The 109 is a racer/cruiser, seakindly, fitted with enough amenities (and options) to make for a couple of weeks of decently comfortable coastal cruising, while offering something like a big boat racing experience. The OD class didn't work out as well as hoped, but there still is good OD racing in a few areas. And they've done well in IRC.

 

The J/111 is being targeted at serious racers. No way to know yet whether they'll be able to build an OD class on the scale of the J/105 or J/80, but the J/Boats crew have been pretty consistently good at getting classes started and on a solid footing.

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I think the J/111 will fill the J/125's boots as a downwind planning sleigh 'unlike' the J/109 which certainly doesn't plane, unless you have 35kts of wind and a big ass kite. The J/111 isn't aiming for OD.

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I think the J/111 will fill the J/125's boots as a downwind planning sleigh 'unlike' the J/109 which certainly doesn't plane, unless you have 35kts of wind and a big ass kite. The J/111 isn't aiming for OD.

 

The J109 was designed for IRC and the European market and has done very nicely.

 

The J111 is an OD boat and more focused towards the US market - a modern replacement for the 105. The 109 hasn't been so popular in the US. I am sure they'll sell some J111's in the UK but the 109 is in the driving seat in terms of numbers.

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its going to be £200,000 with sails and instruments, ouch

 

The money for the new J/Anarchy forum has to come from somewhere. :D

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From what I understand, there are two sets of J/109 tooling, one in France, one in Warren RI. The lawyers who put together the contract between J/Boats and TPI apparently screwed the pooch, and the ownership of the tooling in RI is ambiguous. Last I'd heard, it's in negotiation. I'd also heard about some negotiations with the new builder, C&C Composites (NOT = Fairport Marine), but obviously a moot point until the issue of tooling is settled. Obviously, the weakness of the US$D to the Euro prices the J/109 out of the market under present circumstances. There might have been one or two sold in the past year in the US (more in Europe).

 

The J/111 is a completely different boat aimed at a different market than the J/109. The 109 is a racer/cruiser, seakindly, fitted with enough amenities (and options) to make for a couple of weeks of decently comfortable coastal cruising, while offering something like a big boat racing experience. The OD class didn't work out as well as hoped, but there still is good OD racing in a few areas. And they've done well in IRC.

 

The J/111 is being targeted at serious racers. No way to know yet whether they'll be able to build an OD class on the scale of the J/105 or J/80, but the J/Boats crew have been pretty consistently good at getting classes started and on a solid footing.

I would strongly disagree with the bolded statement.

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I think the J/111 will fill the J/125's boots as a downwind planning sleigh 'unlike' the J/109 which certainly doesn't plane, unless you have 35kts of wind and a big ass kite. The J/111 isn't aiming for OD.

I doubt it, and here is why.

 

Tale of the Tapes:

 

BOAT - LOA - LWL - BEAM - DRAFT - DSPL - BALAST - BALAST/DSPL - SA up - SA down - max chute - SADSPL up - SA/DSPL down - DSPL/LOA

J/111 - 36.5 ft - 32.7 ft - 10.77 ft - 7.00 ft - 8600 lbs - ????? lbs - ???% - 656 ft^2 - ????? ft^2 - 1410 ft^2 - 28 - 69 - 110

J/125 - 41.0 ft - 37.0 ft - 10.60 ft - 7.90 ft - 8350 lbs - 4646 llbs - 57% - ???? ft^2 - ????? ft^2 - ????? ft^2 - 43 - 74 - ???

 

J/125 is significantly LONGER, LIGHTER, SLIMMER, and STIFFER, with MUCH MORE SAIL AREA both upwind and downwind.

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I think the J/111 will fill the J/125's boots as a downwind planning sleigh 'unlike' the J/109 which certainly doesn't plane, unless you have 35kts of wind and a big ass kite. The J/111 isn't aiming for OD.

 

I have to disagree...there is nothing in the J Boat pipline that will fill the 125's boots (they are big boots to fill).

The 125 is a sweet ass ride.

The only boat that comes close was the J/90, but only 6 or so were built.

 

The J/109 does not and never will plane...neither will the J/111.

 

In my opinion, the J/111 is well suited to pick up where the J/105 left off.

It has the headroom 105'ers have been missing for 20 years without the furniture store you get with the 109.

 

Looks like a sweet package on paper...we'll see if they get the critical mass the 105 has enjoyed.

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I think the J/111 will fill the J/125's boots as a downwind planning sleigh 'unlike' the J/109 which certainly doesn't plane, unless you have 35kts of wind and a big ass kite. The J/111 isn't aiming for OD.

 

I have to disagree...there is nothing in the J Boat pipline that will fill the 125's boots (they are big boots to fill).

The 125 is a sweet ass ride.

The only boat that comes close was the J/90, but only 6 or so were built.

 

The J/109 does not and never will plane...neither will the J/111.

 

In my opinion, the J/111 is well suited to pick up where the J/105 left off.

It has the headroom 105'ers have been missing for 20 years without the furniture store you get with the 109.

 

Looks like a sweet package on paper...we'll see if they get the critical mass the 105 has enjoyed.

 

I say make it a furniture factory. If the thing won't achieve lift-off, make it usable for the dual purpose market, I say.

 

I'm a bit dissapointed with the v-berth and the fact that it looks like the privacy of multiple berths won't be matched with doors (?) from what I can see. And, the berths look small.

 

I'd rather have a full v-verth without having to walk through the pooper.

 

Looking forward to walking through one someday.

 

DG

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I think the J/111 will fill the J/125's boots as a downwind planning sleigh 'unlike' the J/109 which certainly doesn't plane, unless you have 35kts of wind and a big ass kite. The J/111 isn't aiming for OD.

I doubt it, and here is why.

 

Tale of the Tapes:

 

BOAT - LOA - LWL - BEAM - DRAFT - DSPL - BALAST - BALAST/DSPL - SA up - SA down - max chute - SADSPL up - SA/DSPL down - DSPL/LOA

J/111 - 36.5 ft - 32.7 ft - 10.77 ft - 7.00 ft - 8600 lbs - ????? lbs - ???% - 656 ft^2 - ????? ft^2 - 1410 ft^2 - 28 - 69 - 110

J/125 - 41.0 ft - 37.0 ft - 10.60 ft - 7.90 ft - 8350 lbs - 4646 llbs - 57% - ???? ft^2 - ????? ft^2 - ????? ft^2 - 43 - 74 - ???

 

J/125 is significantly LONGER, LIGHTER, SLIMMER, and STIFFER, with MUCH MORE SAIL AREA both upwind and downwind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

it wont be as fast as the 125 but it will be the most 'downwindy' boat since the 125, it should still hit 20kts regularly. should piss all over the SC37e although that is also a nice boat

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it wont be as fast as the 125 but it will be the most 'downwindy' boat since the 125, it should still hit 20kts regularly. should piss all over the SC37e although that is also a nice boat

e ?

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The 109's tend not to put their kites up in much over 20 knots.

 

The 111 isn't going to "piss all over" an SC37 downwind.

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The 109's tend not to put their kites up in much over 20 knots.

The 111 isn't going to "piss all over" an SC37 downwind.

 

 

What are you basing this on? I can assure you that if I didn't put a kite up in 20kts then I would walk as soon as we came alongside. 20 - 40kts is were you start having the fun on a 109.

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Numerous regattas over the past 5 years most recently Dartweek (J-Dream and Jahmali plus the rest miles behind) .... 25-30 knots true downwind the 109 is all over the place .. it doesnt have the stability and downwind performance of a typical asym J-boat

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Numerous regattas over the past 5 years most recently Dartweek (J-Dream and Jahmali plus the rest miles behind) .... 25-30 knots true downwind the 109 is all over the place .. it doesnt have the stability and downwind performance of a typical asym J-boat

 

 

Sounds like you don't know how to sail a 109. I have sailed on the past NA Champ 109 and it was rock solid in breeze. And that was with the large(non OD) kite up.

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Numerous regattas over the past 5 years most recently Dartweek (J-Dream and Jahmali plus the rest miles behind) .... 25-30 knots true downwind the 109 is all over the place .. it doesnt have the stability and downwind performance of a typical asym J-boat

 

 

Sounds like you don't know how to sail a 109. I have sailed on the past NA Champ 109 and it was rock solid in breeze. And that was with the large(non OD) kite up.

 

I test sailed the 109 and 105 in 2003 and bought a 105 - I can recount many stories of new 109 owners, experienced sailors from other classes inc 105s - who have found the boat less than glamorous downwind in a blow ("we put the kite up in 20 knots and thought - 'is that it?'"). The 109 is a very nice upwind boat and is much more the IRC typeform hence her success in the UK, but she don't go downwind and is prone to spin out (IIRC UK OD 109 kite is 110sqm)

 

This leads us back to the forum topic - the J/111 will I suspect be a strong downwind boat - better than the 109. In the UK (and elsewhere under IRC) I don't think the J/111 will feature strongly in W/L against 109s and other IRC typeforms. In the US where IRC is not so important (and hence the 109 hasn't featured strongly) the J/111 is a more compelling alternative.

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Why didn't J Boats make the J111 rate well in IRC It doesn't conflict with the possibility of establishing a one design fleet. The initial boats in an area will start by racing under handicap, until enough boats are sold to get a one design start. I doubt that good IRC results will hinder sales. Just look at how the Beneteau First 40 did in the Sydney-Hobart race. Does anyone think that will stop someone who wants to race against other First 40's in a one design fleet?

 

Does anyone know what th J111 will rate uneder IRC?

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Numerous regattas over the past 5 years most recently Dartweek (J-Dream and Jahmali plus the rest miles behind) .... 25-30 knots true downwind the 109 is all over the place .. it doesnt have the stability and downwind performance of a typical asym J-boat

 

 

So numerous regattas over the past 5 years? You must know me well then. So what boat were you on for the nationals? Cowes week? Winter series? Vice admirals cup? Spring series? Cork week? You know, were the serious racing takes place.

 

Actually how many regattas have you done on a 109 and where did you come in the rankings?

 

Me thinks that you are, as usual, the expert on j boats from behind your pc but when it comes to racing them you are full of shit.

 

As for not having the stability downwind in 25 - 30 knots. If you practice in the higher winds you may actually learn how to sail them and find out how easy it is.

 

Can't wait to see you on the race course next year.

 

x

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Ha Ha - Happy New year to you too ! EDIT: BTW the way I think we were moored next to each other for the 2007 Season at MDL.

 

I don't like the handling of 109 so don't race on them. When J-Dream was a 105 we always had very good racing with them so my feeling is I'd be pretty good in the 109 fleet if I were to buy one. However as I now live in Singapore that's another reason it's not going to happen.

 

I got my 105 in 2004 when the 109 was just getting going so we did 2 seasons of racing IRC Bowsprit Class with them - I've seen them fall over plenty when the wind gets to 20+ just when you are getting really excited in a 105 - I done J-Cups where the 109s in my IRC class don't fly kites (and when Beken Action Calendar featured us blasting downwind with the kite up and there is a white sailing 109 in the picture)

 

The quote above regarding the 109 downwind performance came form the owners of J-Dream. Also the first 109 National champions were very good sailors (husband and wife ex Etchells I recall) and when they first got their boat the wife had two back eyes from broaching in heavy air and they commented to me directly how they didn't like the boat downwind. My 2005 2-handed Fastnet crew sailed that boat when it won the Nationals and he often commented on the difference in the downwind stability of the boat versus the 105

 

The 109 is a very good IRC windward leeward boat with crew to stiffen her upwind. She's not so good offshore, two handed (ie without crew weight), reaching or running.

 

Each to their own, the 109 fleet has lots of boats on the line for OD, just not for me for the reasons noted.

 

I would consider a J/111 for the record.

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The 109's tend not to put their kites up in much over 20 knots.

Over 20 knots is when the fun starts... We tend to see the 40-footers with sym (IMX/First) have more problems than we do in a blow, but naturally it comes down to crew work. We have no problems shorthanded in 25-30, but then it's with a smaller kite (85% of OD). In this mode we're pretty fast:

 

post-5025-1262471106.jpg

 

But... and I think that's the point here... on a J/111 you'll get more acceleration in the puffs instead of loading the boat up :blink: This will make it much easier on both crew and gear.

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Ha Ha - Happy New year to you too ! EDIT: BTW the way I think we were moored next to each other for the 2007 Season at MDL.

 

I don't like the handling of 109 so don't race on them. When J-Dream was a 105 we always had very good racing with them so my feeling is I'd be pretty good in the 109 fleet if I were to buy one. However as I now live in Singapore that's another reason it's not going to happen.

 

I got my 105 in 2004 when the 109 was just getting going so we did 2 seasons of racing IRC Bowsprit Class with them - I've seen them fall over plenty when the wind gets to 20+ just when you are getting really excited in a 105 - I done J-Cups where the 109s in my IRC class don't fly kites (and when Beken Action Calendar featured us blasting downwind with the kite up and there is a white sailing 109 in the picture)

 

The quote above regarding the 109 downwind performance came form the owners of J-Dream. Also the first 109 National champions were very good sailors (husband and wife ex Etchells I recall) and when they first got their boat the wife had two back eyes from broaching in heavy air and they commented to me directly how they didn't like the boat downwind. My 2005 2-handed Fastnet crew sailed that boat when it won the Nationals and he often commented on the difference in the downwind stability of the boat versus the 105

 

The 109 is a very good IRC windward leeward boat with crew to stiffen her upwind. She's not so good offshore, two handed (ie without crew weight), reaching or running.

 

Each to their own, the 109 fleet has lots of boats on the line for OD, just not for me for the reasons noted.

 

I would consider a J/111 for the record.

 

I bet his wife got the black eyes because she commented on why her husband broached not because of the broach.............twice! :lol:

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Why didn't J Boats make the J111 rate well in IRC It doesn't conflict with the possibility of establishing a one design fleet.

 

J Boats are saying that it does conflict and that they are betting on OD for the 111. Can give them some credit for not hedging their bet.

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Why didn't J Boats make the J111 rate well in IRC It doesn't conflict with the possibility of establishing a one design fleet.

 

J Boats are saying that it does conflict and that they are betting on OD for the 111. Can give them some credit for not hedging their bet.

 

The 109 is the IRC friendly boat - and it has built strong OD in the UK on that basis. The 111 is primarily US targetted in my view and IRC is less important there currently.

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I wonder if JBoat is going to do the flush deck furler and stays on the J/111 like they did with the J/122? My guess from the web images is that the answer is "yes"... I think it looks sharp, but I have no idea what the maintenance is like. They also seem to be using the same floor mounted traveler used on the J/122. Over all, it seems like a good design, but it looks like it's going to be spendy.

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I suspect they will go for the flush deck furler - it looks neat and gets the jib closer to the deck which a lot of pople think is important. The 122 has decent access to the furling uunit. What I don't know is how you adjust the forestay tension.

 

Floor mounted traveller is good - I guess on the J/111 they have the volume below/freeboard to be able to put it on the floor.

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P-Ed: thanks for the link - the unit looks very nice and the forestay adjustmet appears much simpler than on the above deck furlers.

 

FYI even (European built) 92's, 105's and 109's have anchor lockers

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I wonder if JBoat is going to do the flush deck furler.

Not decided yet. Pros & cons with both solutions...

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Remember the J-36? Of course you don’t. That’s because the J-35 came out. The J-36 was a great boat but the J-35 was a more racy, low freeboard with a striped out cabin boat that wasn’t designed for any rating. Sounds like a similar situation.

 

Will history repeat itself with the 109 – 111? I hope so. Not saying the 109 is a bad boat in any way I just think the 111 will be even more popular. I’m predicting a possible one design for BIRW ’12.

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The moderate experience I've had with the Harken TD furler on the 122 has been mostly pleasant. The major problems occur when you try and furl a sail with any halyard tension on it. I haven't observed the problem myself (as I'm usually trying to trim the kite as the rest of the crew furls the jib) but what I gather is that the upper swivel doesn't turn right and keeps the sail from furling.

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From what I understand, there are two sets of J/109 tooling, one in France, one in Warren RI. The lawyers who put together the contract between J/Boats and TPI apparently screwed the pooch, and the ownership of the tooling in RI is ambiguous. Last I'd heard, it's in negotiation. I'd also heard about some negotiations with the new builder, C&C Composites (NOT = Fairport Marine), but obviously a moot point until the issue of tooling is settled. Obviously, the weakness of the US$D to the Euro prices the J/109 out of the market under present circumstances. There might have been one or two sold in the past year in the US (more in Europe).

 

The J/111 is a completely different boat aimed at a different market than the J/109. The 109 is a racer/cruiser, seakindly, fitted with enough amenities (and options) to make for a couple of weeks of decently comfortable coastal cruising, while offering something like a big boat racing experience. The OD class didn't work out as well as hoped, but there still is good OD racing in a few areas. And they've done well in IRC.

 

The J/111 is being targeted at serious racers. No way to know yet whether they'll be able to build an OD class on the scale of the J/105 or J/80, but the J/Boats crew have been pretty consistently good at getting classes started and on a solid footing.

I would strongly disagree with the bolded statement.

 

Ahh - come on G. Get a grip. In the J-Boat glossy marketing it is described as a sportboat so it must be a rocket.................... :o

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The moderate experience I've had with the Harken TD furler on the 122 has been mostly pleasant. The major problems occur when you try and furl a sail with any halyard tension on it. I haven't observed the problem myself (as I'm usually trying to trim the kite as the rest of the crew furls the jib) but what I gather is that the upper swivel doesn't turn right and keeps the sail from furling.

 

That's the opposite of the normal Harken furlers - they work only with the jib halyard tensioned. The top swivel sticking is usually due to salt encrusted inside (it doesn't take much - the swivek should be washed out with fresh water after each days sailing) or the swivel not being hoisted high enough (short luff jib or a #4 without a long head tape)

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From what I understand, there are two sets of J/109 tooling, one in France, one in Warren RI. The lawyers who put together the contract between J/Boats and TPI apparently screwed the pooch, and the ownership of the tooling in RI is ambiguous. Last I'd heard, it's in negotiation. I'd also heard about some negotiations with the new builder, C&C Composites (NOT = Fairport Marine), but obviously a moot point until the issue of tooling is settled. Obviously, the weakness of the US$D to the Euro prices the J/109 out of the market under present circumstances. There might have been one or two sold in the past year in the US (more in Europe).

 

The J/111 is a completely different boat aimed at a different market than the J/109. The 109 is a racer/cruiser, seakindly, fitted with enough amenities (and options) to make for a couple of weeks of decently comfortable coastal cruising, while offering something like a big boat racing experience. The OD class didn't work out as well as hoped, but there still is good OD racing in a few areas. And they've done well in IRC.

 

The J/111 is being targeted at serious racers. No way to know yet whether they'll be able to build an OD class on the scale of the J/105 or J/80, but the J/Boats crew have been pretty consistently good at getting classes started and on a solid footing.

I would strongly disagree with the bolded statement.

 

Ahh - come on G. Get a grip. In the J-Boat glossy marketing it is described as a sportboat so it must be a rocket.................... :o

I know, how silly of me!

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If the 111 is so fast, and not intended for IRC. What oes it rate? Over 1.2?

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If the 111 is so fast, and not intended for IRC. What oes it rate? Over 1.2?

 

You are on to something

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I just want the answer to the question "what does it rate"

 

This has been discussed already somewhere else. Estimates were ranging 1.07-1.1 based on comparison with similar yachts (X-35, SC37..)

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Was the J/111 designed because the J/Boats doesn't own the molds of the J/109? The J/109 is a pretty nice boat. The design is only 7-8 years old (right?)The J/111 seems to really cannibalize their existing 35' market.

got the actual price list - 229k base boat, then add 15-20k for upcharge for 110v/galley/hot cold water etc etc, dealer prep of at least 6k for bottom, 20k for sails and 10k for electronics and its up to 300k

 

can get a real good 109 for 200k so or for a few $ more a j125 so who knows - local broker says they are up to hull #16 but that may be hype.?.

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TACNI: I think the simple answer is no one has gotten an actual IRC rating yet for the boat, I am sure trial certificates will have been run but no-one is sharing those here, which is normal.

 

oil_man: New vs used comparisons are going to be favour used boats no matter what the brand/design. Not sure how you can spend $15-20k on options (who has hot water on a boat like this ?), we race our J's straight from the factory - no bottom prep other than anti-fouling which costs about $2k.

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I haven't seen the options list, but if like the J/97, I'll bet its actually pretty slim. But who said you need to get any of the options? Options sure won't make it sail better...

 

Also, cost comparison should be made to base for a 109 and 97. Compared to them, I think 229k base is pretty damn good. If you're gonna do bottom prep, it will cost that (or more) for any 35-36 footer, so thats a wash when looking at pricing. I agree with our UK SA brethern that bottom jobs are an american obsession. Not in anyway required at the local regatta/club racer level.

 

Again, sails and electronics will cost that much for any new 35-36 foot racer - racer-cruiser so those prices are a wash too. Older boats are less money to buy, but likely would have to spend at least half (as you would have for sails) to upgrade old sails, and have to decide you like (or can live with) all the other stuff picked out the the PO.

 

Every boat is a butt load of compromises...

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definitely true that some sailors (mostly americans) _greatly_ overestimate the significance of a bottom job (fairing) on boats like this..., good bottom paint is all it should need.

 

but w.r.t. the options, i think most people will get things like hot water - it's supposed to cruise too, and that means showers. in the us, very few, if any will be sold without hot water.

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local broker says they are up to hull #16 but that may be hype.?.

Next available hull would be #19 B)

 

Options

• Two Tone Deck.

• 1/2" Cove Stripe to match boot stripe

• Additional 90 amp battery.

• Opening ports on aft face of cabin house (2).

• Thurston dodger with side curtains.

• Main cabin fold-up pilot berths.

• Storage cabinet outboard of each settee.

• Wide-opening lifeline gates (P & S).

• Removable Transom locker.

• Spar Package finished in white

• 110 VAC Shore Power system with 30’ cord, 2 outlets

• DC Refrigeration (requires 2nd battery option).

 

Comfort Group Package:

Cockpit seat and helmsman cushions (4 piece set); Sunbrella covered lifeline covers for helmsman (4 piece set); mainsail cover in Sunbrella with J/111 Logo.

 

Interior Trim Package

Varnished wood slats on visible hull sides in main salon area; fixed centerline table with hinged drop-leaf design and padded cover in Sunbrella.

 

Systems Group Package

Hot & Cold Pressure Water system; Cockpit Shower

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Heard an interesting concept from the London Boat Show, basic idea being that some of the top UK 109's were interested in getting the 111 going as an OD class. It seems they'd swallowed a line from the UK J guys, roped in a sailmaker and electronics company and between them all were offering a deal on the first few UK hulls, which seems like a good idea. OK, its a marginal planning asym (so maybe you'll fight the rig to get downhill slightly less than on a 109) with roller furling jib, but, hey, at least its OD......

 

Then they mentioned the price - 250k OTW!!!! WTF!!!! (don't know if that includes the logo'ed Sunbrella main sail cover??)

 

Thats a Farr 40 + 2 seasons of sails, crew, flights & accommodation, or, a fleet of 10 Etchells + sails + world class coaching + accommodation for the whole of the worlds fleet, or, a top IRC 40' with a years campaigning, or, for less than 100k take your pick of B34.7, Corby something, slightly more for an A35.

 

Good luck, but if I was holding the purse strings - not a chance!

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250k on the water is not bad at all for a "fleet" buy.

 

In all your comparisons, you are assuming all the money is available up front. That's not always the case. Chances are the boat will be financed. Its not all up front money available to "blow" in 2 or 3 years campaigning a farr 40. And compare apples to apples. The cost of a new IRC 40 or a new A35 equals or exceed 250k on the water. If you looking for used that's a whole different story....there are lots of different ways to spend your money. Some want a new boat. Whats wrong with that? Besides, with no new boat buyers, there'd be no used ones in 3-5 years for guys to pick up cheap!

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Why would anyone with a mid-szied J-boat want to buy a Farr 40 - I've had the pleasure of sailing on one, ditto a M30. I can understand why they are popular but not for me, overly unstable, poor upwind in typical Solent conditions, bloody complicated with symetric kites and lots of string everywhere, lightly built as grand-prix inshore ODs. As crash says spending money on suits of sails for a Farr 40 is running costs. If the Farr 40 / M30 were any good in the UK they would be fleet there but there are not for good reason. I've seen them come and go in the Solent (M30 peak was Worlds, F40 the Europeans both more than 6 years ago)

 

Just sold my 105 to an owner who coming out of a B34.7 (he's had lots of J's and dipped into the Bene now getting out - in fact so little B34.7 demand the boat is getting shipped to Australia) - a used B34.7 instead of a new J/111 ?? I cannot see a J109 owner switching to a B34.7

 

I can absolutely understand why UK 109 and 105 owners would look at the J/111 as a potential OD

 

That would be a trade I would consider, however the Archambault M34 is much more interesting (also about USD250 OTW)

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Heard an interesting concept from the London Boat Show, basic idea being that some of the top UK 109's were interested in getting the 111 going as an OD class. It seems they'd swallowed a line from the UK J guys, roped in a sailmaker and electronics company and between them all were offering a deal on the first few UK hulls, which seems like a good idea. OK, its a marginal planning asym (so maybe you'll fight the rig to get downhill slightly less than on a 109) with roller furling jib, but, hey, at least its OD......

 

 

With the J109 Europeans in Cork week this summer I cant see this happening just yet. 2009 saw 29 J109s at the UK nationals in Torbay, 2008 saw 26 J109s at Corkweek. why would you give up this size OD fleet for a relatively small one starting off?

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My point was that if you've got 250k to spend there's a lot of alternatives that offer better value for money than a J111, either OD or rated.

Not sure about the 'upfront' argument, is spending 250k to get a 111 on the water, whether financed or not, different to spending 100k on a (say) Farr 40 then 2 years at 75k? In either case, after a couple of years you'll have a boat worth approx 100k, and some spanked sails! To compare like for like, I'd need to add some running costs into the J111 case.

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Why would anyone with a mid-szied J-boat want to buy a Farr 40 - I've had the pleasure of sailing on one, ditto a M30. I can understand why they are popular but not for me, overly unstable, poor upwind in typical Solent conditions, bloody complicated with symetric kites and lots of string everywhere, lightly built as grand-prix inshore ODs. As crash says spending money on suits of sails for a Farr 40 is running costs. If the Farr 40 / M30 were any good in the UK they would be fleet there but there are not for good reason. I've seen them come and go in the Solent (M30 peak was Worlds, F40 the Europeans both more than 6 years ago)

 

Just sold my 105 to an owner who coming out of a B34.7 (he's had lots of J's and dipped into the Bene now getting out - in fact so little B34.7 demand the boat is getting shipped to Australia) - a used B34.7 instead of a new J/111 ?? I cannot see a J109 owner switching to a B34.7

 

I can absolutely understand why UK 109 and 105 owners would look at the J/111 as a potential OD

 

That would be a trade I would consider, however the Archambault M34 is much more interesting (also about USD250 OTW)

 

Jambalaya - I've also sailed an F40, a Med regatta in 25+ knots of breeze, the thing that surprised me was how stable the boat was up & downwind under masthead kites. I also sailed last years 109 nationals - not dissimilar conditions- less sea state, and I know which boat I'd rather be in. The 109 just loaded up and tried to dig the bow in.

 

Do you think the Arch 34 would be closer to a Farr 40/M30 or a 109/105?

 

Why there isn't a decent Solent OD fleet of symetric planning boats, with downwind sails for competent sailors, that need 5+ crew is beyond me - maybe when some M30's start hitting the market after next years TdF they'll take off again.

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My point was that if you've got 250k to spend there's a lot of alternatives that offer better value for money than a J111, either OD or rated.

Not sure about the 'upfront' argument, is spending 250k to get a 111 on the water, whether financed or not, different to spending 100k on a (say) Farr 40 then 2 years at 75k? In either case, after a couple of years you'll have a boat worth approx 100k, and some spanked sails! To compare like for like, I'd need to add some running costs into the J111 case.

 

I agree you'd have to add running costs to the J/111 case. But I disagree the J/111 will only be worth 100k after a couple years. I bought my J/109 spring of 2003 for 217k. Raced and cruised it for 4 seasons. Added 4 new sails over the course of the 4 seasons. Sold it for 207k (Just before economic meltdown). But even now lowest priced J/109 is still listed for 154k, and one just sold that was listed at 165k. (165k was base for a 2003 J/109). So I doubt a 111 will depreciate that deeply ever, let alone in a couple of years...

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Bought my 92 new for £38 and sold it for £36 5yrs later. Bought my 105 for £95 new sold it for £80 after 6 years. I cannot complain at that and J-boats/J-UK do a great job supporting the brand and my value (/investment)

 

I see the Arch 34 as closer to the J/111 and M30. It has the advantage of instant OD and one of the best events in the World to take part in.

 

Potentially the M30 could do what the Farr 45's have done and see a resurgence. It is a memory that stays with me from 1999 when M30's were spinning out in the breeze in the Solent where we (total novices) just sailed downwind in a j92 no problems. The M30 needs good crew and I don't think enough good sailors in the Solent will be drawn to crew on them.

 

I don't think many J109 owners see themselves in a Farr 40 or Mumm 30 !

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Bought my 92 new for £38 and sold it for £36 5yrs later. Bought my 105 for £95 new sold it for £80 after 6 years. I cannot complain at that and J-boats/J-UK do a great job supporting the brand and my value (/investment)

 

I see the Arch 34 as closer to the J/111 and M30. It has the advantage of instant OD and one of the best events in the World to take part in.

 

Potentially the M30 could do what the Farr 45's have done and see a resurgence. It is a memory that stays with me from 1999 when M30's were spinning out in the breeze in the Solent where we (total novices) just sailed downwind in a j92 no problems. The M30 needs good crew and I don't think enough good sailors in the Solent will be drawn to crew on them.

 

I don't think many J109 owners see themselves in a Farr 40 or Mumm 30 !

More to the point, not many J/109 owners' wives see them in a Farr 40 of Mumm 30!

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More to the point, not many J/109 owners\' wives see them in a Farr 40 of Mumm 30!

 

My wife wants a TP 65.

Mine's more a J/65 kinda gal.

 

 

same here. My lady's done with racing and would rather lay on the bow and catch some rays. I'm all about speed. She's all about comfort. When I win the lottery, we'll compromise and get a Gunboat Catamaran

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