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J109Guy

Add a #2 for a J109?

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I an the co-owner of a J109 that does A LOT (over 50 races last year) of PHRF racing in Massachusetts Bay. There are only 2 other J109s within a 10 hour sail that race in our area, so no one-design options for us.

 

The vast majority (75% or so) of our races are in 10 knots or less. We have a good Light #1 for the drifters (good from 4-8 true) and an excellent medium #1 (6-12 true) for those conditions. Both of these sales are 155% LP. For the occasions when the wind is up in the high teens and above we have a HEAVY #3 105% that does the trick. I own a #4 that I have NEVER used in the six years I've had the boat! Good thing that was a "free" sail...

 

Every year, however, we have 6-10 races where we are somewhere in between the #1 and the #3. It might gust up to 18 but then bottom out at 12, so I don't want to beat up the #1 but the #3 will be underpowered in the lulls. Or, it's blowing 15 but it's been blowing all night so the sees are lumpy as shit, and I could use the extra horsepower the #3 doesn't provide. In addition, out Wednesday night beer can races are in Boston Harbor, where we usually end up with a reaching type course with some very puffy conditions, which takes it out on the #1.

 

My thought is that adding in a #2 will give me a sail I will use in 10-20% of my races, plus it will extend the life of my #1. But what I am struggling with is what the size of the sail should be? I am thinking somewhere in the 125-140 range??? But what is the "right" number. I know in discussing with my sail maker that the sheeting angle can be a concern with some of the different options. A 125 puts your sheeting point at the beam of the boat, versus 140 which will get you closer to the #3 angle. But will that be too much sail area for the conditions, and what is the difference in IRC for carrying a 105 versus a 125 versus a 140LP?

 

The piece of the puzzle I am missing is related to possible use of this sail in IRC, because I have no experience. If I use the sail 5-10 times a year, I expect the sail will last me 4-5 years. There is no IRC racing in my immediate area, but opportunities do exist in Newport or Buzzards Bay for IRC racing (especially now that the OD racing has petered out), and there may be more in the future. A lot of the J109 IRC talk on this forum has been just use your #3 and that gets you your optimized rating, but in 12 and less you will suffer. So is there anyone out there that has an IRC cert with a #2? Has the sail been helpful? If so, what is the LP of your #2?

 

I've searched through the forum on J109 and IRC, and there is some helpful info, but nothing that really addresses this head on. So any input from 109s (or similar boats) using a #2 would be greatly appreciated. And thanks in advance...

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How many crew do you sail with? The 109 I sailed on had a heavy #1 that was used up to about 18 true. But we had 9 people on board, 7 of who were hiking their guts out, 5 of whom were 200lb +.

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We almost always race with eight: four men and four women, with our total weight usually a bit under 1,400. Sadly, one of the heaviest crew members is usually turning the wheel...not a lot of rail meat on the boat, more like rail candy!!!

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We have a #2. It is a North Dacron sail, nothing fancy. Like you said, the wind range is small, 14 to 16 true. I like it better then the #3 in this wind range when the seas are lumpy. Used only a few times in the last 2 years but each time the speed was there.

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Take a look at your local PHRF sail size credits too - up on Lake Champlain there is a credit for smaller LP sizes.

 

HEAD SAILS (LP ADJUSTMENT)

135.0 or less +6

135.1-145% +3

145.1–155% 0

155.1-165% -3

165.1-175% -6

Over 175.1% -9 +

 

Perhaps for some races or series (fall series, etc) it would be worth sailing with just the smaller sails for a rating credit. (Off shore, etc). I would also factor in how much power you would want the boat to have vs heel.

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The 109 I have sailed on just uses the Heavy #1. It seems to work well. And with the limited range you really get out of a #2 it doesn't seem to cost effective to me to buy the #2.

 

You said you sailed a bit light on weight. Buy a sandwich for one more person and adding a little weight on the rail will be alot cheaper than buying a #2.

 

Just my $.02.

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The 109 I have sailed on just uses the Heavy #1. It seems to work well. And with the limited range you really get out of a #2 it doesn't seem to cost effective to me to buy the #2.

 

You said you sailed a bit light on weight. Buy a sandwich for one more person and adding a little weight on the rail will be alot cheaper than buying a #2.

 

Just my $.02.

 

I would agree. Didn't spend a lot on our #2. With a new boat its nice to have a utility sail for deliveries or pleasure sails. A Dacron #2 fits this roll and sees the odd race.

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The 109 I have sailed on just uses the Heavy #1. It seems to work well. And with the limited range you really get out of a #2 it doesn't seem to cost effective to me to buy the #2.

 

You said you sailed a bit light on weight. Buy a sandwich for one more person and adding a little weight on the rail will be alot cheaper than buying a #2.

 

Just my $.02.

 

 

If you wanna buy me flights from CA, I could do mast for ya. I weigh in at just under 3 bills and can hike like a bastard.

 

Kidding aside, I'd think about a light 1 that is truly built light, fat, and big (155ish) and a heavy 1 that is truly built heavy, flat and slightly smaller(140-150). That's what I'd do if you wanted to stick with basically the same program you've got, but fine tune it as new sails are needed.

 

Another option would be to just run a 2 and a 3, and have a tight angle zero built for the boat. I'm becoming very much a fan of zero's since I moved to CA and started racing on a Santa Cruz50 that has one. If you're doing mostly reachy courses, this set up would be the cats ass. Depending on how the zero's built and how your PHRF committee sees the zero, you very much might be rated as only having the small uphill sails.

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The problem we had with the #1 was that in the wind ranges you wanted a #2 but could hold the #1, the boat went more sideways than forward. Skip ended up using the class jib for those conditions - boat pointed well, went well, and was still better than dousing for the #3.

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The 109 I have sailed on just uses the Heavy #1. It seems to work well. And with the limited range you really get out of a #2 it doesn't seem to cost effective to me to buy the #2.

 

You said you sailed a bit light on weight. Buy a sandwich for one more person and adding a little weight on the rail will be alot cheaper than buying a #2.

 

Just my $.02.

 

 

If you wanna buy me flights from CA, I could do mast for ya. I weigh in at just under 3 bills and can hike like a bastard.

 

Kidding aside, I'd think about a light 1 that is truly built light, fat, and big (155ish) and a heavy 1 that is truly built heavy, flat and slightly smaller(140-150). That's what I'd do if you wanted to stick with basically the same program you've got, but fine tune it as new sails are needed.

 

Another option would be to just run a 2 and a 3, and have a tight angle zero built for the boat. I'm becoming very much a fan of zero's since I moved to CA and started racing on a Santa Cruz50 that has one. If you're doing mostly reachy courses, this set up would be the cats ass. Depending on how the zero's built and how your PHRF committee sees the zero, you very much might be rated as only having the small uphill sails.

 

Haha, sorry, guess I should have clarified, we have a light #1, heavy #1 and #3. The heavy #1 works double duty to cover the wind range up to the #3. We have some big boys on board and hiking isn't a problem. Thanks for the offer though, if you are ever in Southern California let me know.

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The 109 I sailed on had a #2 which was your usual # 3 I guess.

 

About 105-110% Norths which actually needed sheeting between the shrouds to get it right for waves in the 16-20knt range it was killer in. It does well barber hauled inside the shrouds in slightly lighter winds or flat sea.

With full 'over' crew of 9 we battled with the 145% , our H1, in those nasty cold 13 knt gusting 19 once in a while days. But we cracked off and it trucked, pressing the genoa to recover from any hits. I prefered the "#2" but you know the whole change-no-change thang.

 

THis "#2" is a bigger sail than the european so called OD "jib" BTW, our -#3.

 

You need to do quite a lot with rig tension and be active with backstay to get the most out of gear changes on a 109, but it is a very forgvining boat.

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The 109 I have sailed on just uses the Heavy #1. It seems to work well. And with the limited range you really get out of a #2 it doesn't seem to cost effective to me to buy the #2.

 

You said you sailed a bit light on weight. Buy a sandwich for one more person and adding a little weight on the rail will be alot cheaper than buying a #2.

 

Just my $.02.

 

 

If you wanna buy me flights from CA, I could do mast for ya. I weigh in at just under 3 bills and can hike like a bastard.

 

Kidding aside, I'd think about a light 1 that is truly built light, fat, and big (155ish) and a heavy 1 that is truly built heavy, flat and slightly smaller(140-150). That's what I'd do if you wanted to stick with basically the same program you've got, but fine tune it as new sails are needed.

 

Another option would be to just run a 2 and a 3, and have a tight angle zero built for the boat. I'm becoming very much a fan of zero's since I moved to CA and started racing on a Santa Cruz50 that has one. If you're doing mostly reachy courses, this set up would be the cats ass. Depending on how the zero's built and how your PHRF committee sees the zero, you very much might be rated as only having the small uphill sails.

 

Haha, sorry, guess I should have clarified, we have a light #1, heavy #1 and #3. The heavy #1 works double duty to cover the wind range up to the #3. We have some big boys on board and hiking isn't a problem. Thanks for the offer though, if you are ever in Southern California let me know.

 

 

Ah, yer a SoCal 109 guy. You've prob raced against the boat/guys I've done time with........ Tastes Like Chicken

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I an the co-owner of a J109 that does A LOT (over 50 races last year) of PHRF racing in Massachusetts Bay. There are only 2 other J109s within a 10 hour sail that race in our area, so no one-design options for us.

 

The vast majority (75% or so) of our races are in 10 knots or less. We have a good Light #1 for the drifters (good from 4-8 true) and an excellent medium #1 (6-12 true) for those conditions. Both of these sales are 155% LP. For the occasions when the wind is up in the high teens and above we have a HEAVY #3 105% that does the trick. I own a #4 that I have NEVER used in the six years I've had the boat! Good thing that was a "free" sail...

 

Every year, however, we have 6-10 races where we are somewhere in between the #1 and the #3. It might gust up to 18 but then bottom out at 12, so I don't want to beat up the #1 but the #3 will be underpowered in the lulls. Or, it's blowing 15 but it's been blowing all night so the sees are lumpy as shit, and I could use the extra horsepower the #3 doesn't provide. In addition, out Wednesday night beer can races are in Boston Harbor, where we usually end up with a reaching type course with some very puffy conditions, which takes it out on the #1.

 

My thought is that adding in a #2 will give me a sail I will use in 10-20% of my races, plus it will extend the life of my #1. But what I am struggling with is what the size of the sail should be? I am thinking somewhere in the 125-140 range??? But what is the "right" number. I know in discussing with my sail maker that the sheeting angle can be a concern with some of the different options. A 125 puts your sheeting point at the beam of the boat, versus 140 which will get you closer to the #3 angle. But will that be too much sail area for the conditions, and what is the difference in IRC for carrying a 105 versus a 125 versus a 140LP?

 

The piece of the puzzle I am missing is related to possible use of this sail in IRC, because I have no experience. If I use the sail 5-10 times a year, I expect the sail will last me 4-5 years. There is no IRC racing in my immediate area, but opportunities do exist in Newport or Buzzards Bay for IRC racing (especially now that the OD racing has petered out), and there may be more in the future. A lot of the J109 IRC talk on this forum has been just use your #3 and that gets you your optimized rating, but in 12 and less you will suffer. So is there anyone out there that has an IRC cert with a #2? Has the sail been helpful? If so, what is the LP of your #2?

 

I've searched through the forum on J109 and IRC, and there is some helpful info, but nothing that really addresses this head on. So any input from 109s (or similar boats) using a #2 would be greatly appreciated. And thanks in advance...

 

My advice would be to learn how to sail your boat better. In BB there is a previous national champion, BIRW winner and NYYC IRC winner that sails with the one design headsail only. I sail with and against there tactician and also very good friends with him and he says that anything over 8TWS you are better off with the 1D sails for the rating. You can tack and accelerate much quicker and be more agressive on shifts.

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Ah, yer a SoCal 109 guy. You've prob raced against the boat/guys I've done time with........ Tastes Like Chicken

 

you sailed with them? i thought you were just the resident diver for them...

 

 

 

We have a #2 for our boat (145%). after blowing up our #3 (3DLtf lasts more than 3days, but 4years is pushing it for a delivery sail...) it has now become our delivery sail till we get a replacement delivery 3. However, since we got our #1 3years ago, the 2 has come out maybe twice. I was never comfortable with the way it sheeted around the shrouds. It always felt awkward trying to figure out how to sheet it. Having learned a bit since those days, i might be more comfortable with it today (seemed ok, today, actually). Most 109's that race IRC race with a 145% sail. As for how it filled the gap, im not sure we got a whole lot less power from it compared to just tuning the rig a bit tighter and easing the main a little more till it was time to go to the #3.

 

BTW, if you're doing that much PHRF racing have you considered putting on a tuf-luf instead of the furler for the ease of headsail changes and substantial weight savings? If you do, this might be a good time to start off a new sail wardrobe by making a slightly flatter #1 than your heavy #1. Until you get around to replacing the other 2 sails you could probably get away with putting a tang on the tack (lowering a sail designed for roller furling onto the deck is not all that effective...).

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you sailed with them? i thought you were just the resident diver for them...

 

 

I won't ever live that one down..... Least you know I hike hard.

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Ah, yer a SoCal 109 guy. You've prob raced against the boat/guys I've done time with........ Tastes Like Chicken

 

you sailed with them? i thought you were just the resident diver for them...

 

 

 

We have a #2 for our boat (145%). after blowing up our #3 (3DLtf lasts more than 3days, but 4years is pushing it for a delivery sail...) it has now become our delivery sail till we get a replacement delivery 3. However, since we got our #1 3years ago, the 2 has come out maybe twice. I was never comfortable with the way it sheeted around the shrouds. It always felt awkward trying to figure out how to sheet it. Having learned a bit since those days, i might be more comfortable with it today (seemed ok, today, actually). Most 109's that race IRC race with a 145% sail. As for how it filled the gap, im not sure we got a whole lot less power from it compared to just tuning the rig a bit tighter and easing the main a little more till it was time to go to the #3.

 

BTW, if you're doing that much PHRF racing have you considered putting on a tuf-luf instead of the furler for the ease of headsail changes and substantial weight savings? If you do, this might be a good time to start off a new sail wardrobe by making a slightly flatter #1 than your heavy #1. Until you get around to replacing the other 2 sails you could probably get away with putting a tang on the tack (lowering a sail designed for roller furling onto the deck is not all that effective...).

 

I know they are different boats, but in many ways similar.. I had a #2 built for my 36.7 to carry on the roller furling headstay.

It too was just "not quite right" around the shrouds and I barberhauled the clew out a few times and that worked pretty well.. I think the better solution would be to install another short piece of track a few inches outboard of the existing genoa track.. I think the geometry would be very similar for the 109

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J109Guy - possibly you know this already ...

 

The UK OD spec for the 109 is a 130ish #2 and a 100ish #3 (rule available online via J-UK or class site)

 

The boat is very fast upwind with the #2 in light air - UK OD is 8 crew I think. The boat does need railmeat as the wind wind gets up.

 

The sail plan was developed with IRC in mind although a lot of UK boats now race IRC with a #3 only (rating is 1.03 vs 1.015)

 

Might be interesting to look at PHRF rating credit and cost savings with the #2 vs #1 plus all the ease of use benefits

 

A lot of UK 109 sailors/owners post here

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I an the co-owner of a J109 that does A LOT (over 50 races last year) of PHRF racing in Massachusetts Bay. There are only 2 other J109s within a 10 hour sail that race in our area, so no one-design options for us.

 

The vast majority (75% or so) of our races are in 10 knots or less. We have a good Light #1 for the drifters (good from 4-8 true) and an excellent medium #1 (6-12 true) for those conditions. Both of these sales are 155% LP. For the occasions when the wind is up in the high teens and above we have a HEAVY #3 105% that does the trick. I own a #4 that I have NEVER used in the six years I've had the boat! Good thing that was a "free" sail...

 

Every year, however, we have 6-10 races where we are somewhere in between the #1 and the #3. It might gust up to 18 but then bottom out at 12, so I don't want to beat up the #1 but the #3 will be underpowered in the lulls. Or, it's blowing 15 but it's been blowing all night so the sees are lumpy as shit, and I could use the extra horsepower the #3 doesn't provide. In addition, out Wednesday night beer can races are in Boston Harbor, where we usually end up with a reaching type course with some very puffy conditions, which takes it out on the #1.

 

My thought is that adding in a #2 will give me a sail I will use in 10-20% of my races, plus it will extend the life of my #1. But what I am struggling with is what the size of the sail should be? I am thinking somewhere in the 125-140 range??? But what is the "right" number. I know in discussing with my sail maker that the sheeting angle can be a concern with some of the different options. A 125 puts your sheeting point at the beam of the boat, versus 140 which will get you closer to the #3 angle. But will that be too much sail area for the conditions, and what is the difference in IRC for carrying a 105 versus a 125 versus a 140LP?

 

The piece of the puzzle I am missing is related to possible use of this sail in IRC, because I have no experience. If I use the sail 5-10 times a year, I expect the sail will last me 4-5 years. There is no IRC racing in my immediate area, but opportunities do exist in Newport or Buzzards Bay for IRC racing (especially now that the OD racing has petered out), and there may be more in the future. A lot of the J109 IRC talk on this forum has been just use your #3 and that gets you your optimized rating, but in 12 and less you will suffer. So is there anyone out there that has an IRC cert with a #2? Has the sail been helpful? If so, what is the LP of your #2?

 

I've searched through the forum on J109 and IRC, and there is some helpful info, but nothing that really addresses this head on. So any input from 109s (or similar boats) using a #2 would be greatly appreciated. And thanks in advance...

 

Sounds like a good email to forward to a good sailmaker/s in your area. I'll bet they'd have all the answers to your questions...

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J109Guy - possibly you know this already ...

 

The UK OD spec for the 109 is a 130ish #2 and a 100ish #3 (rule available online via J-UK or class site)

 

The boat is very fast upwind with the #2 in light air - UK OD is 8 crew I think. The boat does need railmeat as the wind wind gets up.

 

The sail plan was developed with IRC in mind although a lot of UK boats now race IRC with a #3 only (rating is 1.03 vs 1.015)

 

Might be interesting to look at PHRF rating credit and cost savings with the #2 vs #1 plus all the ease of use benefits

 

A lot of UK 109 sailors/owners post here

Jambalaya

 

No, I did not know that. That's the type of advice I was looking for. I'll check out their web site.

 

Z

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I an the co-owner of a J109 that does A LOT (over 50 races last year) of PHRF racing in Massachusetts Bay. There are only 2 other J109s within a 10 hour sail that race in our area, so no one-design options for us...

 

...I've searched through the forum on J109 and IRC, and there is some helpful info, but nothing that really addresses this head on. So any input from 109s (or similar boats) using a #2 would be greatly appreciated. And thanks in advance...

 

My advice would be to learn how to sail your boat better. In BB there is a previous national champion, BIRW winner and NYYC IRC winner that sails with the one design headsail only. I sail with and against there tactician and also very good friends with him and he says that anything over 8TWS you are better off with the 1D sails for the rating. You can tack and accelerate much quicker and be more agressive on shifts.

 

LOL! Excellent advice to "learn how to sail your boat better." We do all right now, but always are looking to get better!

 

Our conditions are VERY different than Ted's are down in BB. As I pointed out in my original question, we have a majority of our races were we are NOT over 8TWS; it tend to blow a bit harder down in Padanaram. I'm just trying to figure out if there is value to adding a #2 for some of those in between days.

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Ah, yer a SoCal 109 guy. You've prob raced against the boat/guys I've done time with........ Tastes Like Chicken

 

you sailed with them? i thought you were just the resident diver for them...

 

 

 

We have a #2 for our boat (145%). after blowing up our #3 (3DLtf lasts more than 3days, but 4years is pushing it for a delivery sail...) it has now become our delivery sail till we get a replacement delivery 3. However, since we got our #1 3years ago, the 2 has come out maybe twice. I was never comfortable with the way it sheeted around the shrouds. It always felt awkward trying to figure out how to sheet it. Having learned a bit since those days, i might be more comfortable with it today (seemed ok, today, actually). Most 109's that race IRC race with a 145% sail. As for how it filled the gap, im not sure we got a whole lot less power from it compared to just tuning the rig a bit tighter and easing the main a little more till it was time to go to the #3.

 

BTW, if you're doing that much PHRF racing have you considered putting on a tuf-luf instead of the furler for the ease of headsail changes and substantial weight savings? If you do, this might be a good time to start off a new sail wardrobe by making a slightly flatter #1 than your heavy #1. Until you get around to replacing the other 2 sails you could probably get away with putting a tang on the tack (lowering a sail designed for roller furling onto the deck is not all that effective...).

 

Good real life input, appreciate it! My sail maker had some of the same concerns about the sheeting angle and the interaction with the shrouds, Sounds like you guys have the same.

 

As far as ditching the furler goes, that is not really an option. We would take a hit to our rating that would push us from B fleet where we sail against other 35 foot boats to the A Fleet where are are sailing against 40-45 foot boat, which is NOT fun!

 

Thanks to all for the advice. Good stuff, very helpful!!!

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We would take a hit to our rating that would push us from B fleet where we sail against other 35 foot boats to the A Fleet where are are sailing against 40-45 foot boat, which is NOT fun!

 

 

Word. I use to spend some time on an Esse850 and we always got stuck in fleets with Navy44's, J35's, and such. Tough in big water....

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Good real life input, appreciate it! My sail maker had some of the same concerns about the sheeting angle and the interaction with the shrouds, Sounds like you guys have the same.

 

As far as ditching the furler goes, that is not really an option. We would take a hit to our rating that would push us from B fleet where we sail against other 35 foot boats to the A Fleet where are are sailing against 40-45 foot boat, which is NOT fun!

 

Thanks to all for the advice. Good stuff, very helpful!!!

 

the way you're going, you're going to need a bigger trophy case ;)

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Not all #3's are alike!

 

Typically you get a #3 with a sweet spot in ~18-20 TWS?

 

We got our sailmaker to do the 105% for 14-16 TWS. With lot's of

infucker we have no problem going from #1 to #3. Cross-over depends.

Naturally we have to depower the #3 earlier, but being in a light-wind

area, we rarely race in 20+ TWS.

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I think the #2 sheets fine around the shrouds which are narrow and quite "far forward" - I am comparing that to a 105 where the sheeting of overlapping headsails is crap. However, I would defer to a sail-maker is going to know better than a punter like me.

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Ah, yer a SoCal 109 guy. You've prob raced against the boat/guys I've done time with........ Tastes Like Chicken

 

you sailed with them? i thought you were just the resident diver for them...

 

 

 

We have a #2 for our boat (145%). after blowing up our #3 (3DLtf lasts more than 3days, but 4years is pushing it for a delivery sail...) it has now become our delivery sail till we get a replacement delivery 3. However, since we got our #1 3years ago, the 2 has come out maybe twice. I was never comfortable with the way it sheeted around the shrouds. It always felt awkward trying to figure out how to sheet it. Having learned a bit since those days, i might be more comfortable with it today (seemed ok, today, actually). Most 109's that race IRC race with a 145% sail. As for how it filled the gap, im not sure we got a whole lot less power from it compared to just tuning the rig a bit tighter and easing the main a little more till it was time to go to the #3.

 

BTW, if you're doing that much PHRF racing have you considered putting on a tuf-luf instead of the furler for the ease of headsail changes and substantial weight savings? If you do, this might be a good time to start off a new sail wardrobe by making a slightly flatter #1 than your heavy #1. Until you get around to replacing the other 2 sails you could probably get away with putting a tang on the tack (lowering a sail designed for roller furling onto the deck is not all that effective...).

 

Good real life input, appreciate it! My sail maker had some of the same concerns about the sheeting angle and the interaction with the shrouds, Sounds like you guys have the same.

 

As far as ditching the furler goes, that is not really an option. We would take a hit to our rating that would push us from B fleet where we sail against other 35 foot boats to the A Fleet where are are sailing against 40-45 foot boat, which is NOT fun!

 

Thanks to all for the advice. Good stuff, very helpful!!!

 

 

Hi J109 guy

 

have a look at ditching the furler. headsail changes are a bitch otherwise, (with vertical battens) and you seem to want the option of a new headsail for each upwind leg by the look of it.

 

quite a few of the 109's go with the smaller jib option (even in light airs) and that more than offsets any rating penalties of not having a big jib that just furls.

 

also, under IRC I thought if you have a genoa that was large enough to get the furler credit (145% I guess), multiple headsails were then not allowed, as the idea is you furl to get less sail, so watch that one.

 

needless to say, a partly furled sail is crap for racing, hence the credit.

 

we have a 92s and have now switched to a twin track luff and race with no1 (110%), no 2 and no 3

 

also.....unless your furler is flush deck, you are giving up some useful foot area to keep power low down.

 

as you can see I'm a luff convert. yes we stressed about the ease of a jib furl, but our performance is so much better now, we can change gears faster, and our bow man is now more contented as he has something approaching a proper job.

 

next stop, a spinnaker pole....

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I an the co-owner of a J109 that does A LOT (over 50 races last year) of PHRF racing in Massachusetts Bay. There are only 2 other J109s within a 10 hour sail that race in our area, so no one-design options for us.

 

The vast majority (75% or so) of our races are in 10 knots or less. We have a good Light #1 for the drifters (good from 4-8 true) and an excellent medium #1 (6-12 true) for those conditions. Both of these sales are 155% LP. For the occasions when the wind is up in the high teens and above we have a HEAVY #3 105% that does the trick. I own a #4 that I have NEVER used in the six years I've had the boat! Good thing that was a "free" sail...

 

Every year, however, we have 6-10 races where we are somewhere in between the #1 and the #3. It might gust up to 18 but then bottom out at 12, so I don't want to beat up the #1 but the #3 will be underpowered in the lulls. Or, it's blowing 15 but it's been blowing all night so the sees are lumpy as shit, and I could use the extra horsepower the #3 doesn't provide. In addition, out Wednesday night beer can races are in Boston Harbor, where we usually end up with a reaching type course with some very puffy conditions, which takes it out on the #1.

 

My thought is that adding in a #2 will give me a sail I will use in 10-20% of my races, plus it will extend the life of my #1. But what I am struggling with is what the size of the sail should be? I am thinking somewhere in the 125-140 range??? But what is the "right" number. I know in discussing with my sail maker that the sheeting angle can be a concern with some of the different options. A 125 puts your sheeting point at the beam of the boat, versus 140 which will get you closer to the #3 angle. But will that be too much sail area for the conditions, and what is the difference in IRC for carrying a 105 versus a 125 versus a 140LP?

 

The piece of the puzzle I am missing is related to possible use of this sail in IRC, because I have no experience. If I use the sail 5-10 times a year, I expect the sail will last me 4-5 years. There is no IRC racing in my immediate area, but opportunities do exist in Newport or Buzzards Bay for IRC racing (especially now that the OD racing has petered out), and there may be more in the future. A lot of the J109 IRC talk on this forum has been just use your #3 and that gets you your optimized rating, but in 12 and less you will suffer. So is there anyone out there that has an IRC cert with a #2? Has the sail been helpful? If so, what is the LP of your #2?

 

I've searched through the forum on J109 and IRC, and there is some helpful info, but nothing that really addresses this head on. So any input from 109s (or similar boats) using a #2 would be greatly appreciated. And thanks in advance...

 

 

 

Hello J109 Guy

 

If it is of any interest to you I have a 109 in Asia which is raced solely under IRC in the same sort of light wind conditions you mention. I have light and medium 105% jibs, but both are the same size that completely maxes out the foretriangle area. We removed the split furling drum (but kept the foil and main unit) so the jibs can be tacked to the deck and are full forestay length, deck sweeping and when fully in-hauled to the coachroof the leech of the sail is only millimetres in front of the spreaders. Sail area is about 32m², which is a couple of m² bigger than the standard no 3 class jib. We keep the light up to about 10 knots TWS, and then switch to the medium, which is good to 18 or so, depending how much weight is on the rail. At about 8 knots, flat water, properly trimmed and with a helmsman who is concentrating, the boat has proved to be very very fast and we can on occasion outsail our A35 competition.

 

I dont understand the science of it but I am told that a properly trimmed jib in sympathy with the main closes the "slot" and the extra power generated from this more than makes up for the missing 5m² of jib sail area.

 

We have no No1 or No2, but there used to be another 109 around with a 155% genoa. This boat was unable to sail faster and could only point 5 degrees lower, so that was evidence enough to me to stick with the combination we have. The boat does becomes sticky in 5 knots or less, but this is when we loose concentration, give up and start to think about going home - as who wants to sail in that!

 

A loose luff type code zero flown off the sprit completes the headsail wardrode - this sail can be quite fun as in 5-6 knots cracked off at about 70 TWA the boat sails as fast as the wind speed - which I have never quite figured out but it makes me smile anyway.

 

Finally we have a 112m² big running kite which is the dog's bollocks. This combination gives us a rating of 1.022 and we can do very nicely with it, when we put the effort in.

 

Good luck with your deliberations.

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112sqm is small mate... class kite is 108sqm, i understood most boats ran 120sqm for IRC (at least in the US), for PHRF we run a 138sqm kite.

 

The time when a #1 really makes a big difference over a 3 is in chop and waves. The extra bit of power is very helpful then.

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I an the co-owner of a J109 that does A LOT (over 50 races last year) of PHRF racing in Massachusetts Bay. There are only 2 other J109s within a 10 hour sail that race in our area, so no one-design options for us...

 

...I've searched through the forum on J109 and IRC, and there is some helpful info, but nothing that really addresses this head on. So any input from 109s (or similar boats) using a #2 would be greatly appreciated. And thanks in advance...

 

 

 

Hello J109 Guy

 

If it is of any interest to you I have a 109 in Asia which is raced solely under IRC in the same sort of light wind conditions you mention. I have light and medium 105% jibs, but both are the same size that completely maxes out the foretriangle area. We removed the split furling drum (but kept the foil and main unit) so the jibs can be tacked to the deck and are full forestay length, deck sweeping and when fully in-hauled to the coachroof the leech of the sail is only millimetres in front of the spreaders. Sail area is about 32m², which is a couple of m² bigger than the standard no 3 class jib. We keep the light up to about 10 knots TWS, and then switch to the medium, which is good to 18 or so, depending how much weight is on the rail. At about 8 knots, flat water, properly trimmed and with a helmsman who is concentrating, the boat has proved to be very very fast and we can on occasion outsail our A35 competition.

 

I dont understand the science of it but I am told that a properly trimmed jib in sympathy with the main closes the "slot" and the extra power generated from this more than makes up for the missing 5m² of jib sail area.

 

We have no No1 or No2, but there used to be another 109 around with a 155% genoa. This boat was unable to sail faster and could only point 5 degrees lower, so that was evidence enough to me to stick with the combination we have. The boat does becomes sticky in 5 knots or less, but this is when we loose concentration, give up and start to think about going home - as who wants to sail in that!

 

A loose luff type code zero flown off the sprit completes the headsail wardrode - this sail can be quite fun as in 5-6 knots cracked off at about 70 TWA the boat sails as fast as the wind speed - which I have never quite figured out but it makes me smile anyway.

 

Finally we have a 112m² big running kite which is the dog's bollocks. This combination gives us a rating of 1.022 and we can do very nicely with it, when we put the effort in.

 

Good luck with your deliberations.

 

nickjs,

 

Very good stuff. Our #3 is a shade under 30 m2. Our #1 is 43 m2. With the light stuff we have around here I just can't fathom being able to give up almost 50% more sail area.

 

For spins, we do use a larger 121 m2 jumbo PHRF chute. We did not go as big as Mustang did with his 138, as the rating hit would have pushed us out of our class. We have a reacher spin, but it is an 80 TWA sail. Again, if we go to a true code-0 70 TWA we get a ratings hit and out of our class again. That being said, the "reacher" spin is a hoot to fly in the light stuff. It is cool to be going 4-5 knots when the TWS is 3!!!

 

After all of this input I would say I am leaning AGAINST adding a #2. I could replace my 3-year old med/heavy #1 with a new med #1 and call it a day. And if I did do any IRC in the future (which is likely down in BB and Newport) I could just go with the #3 for the cert.

 

Decisions, decision, decision...But thanks to you and everyone for the info!

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I an the co-owner of a J109 that does A LOT (over 50 races last year) of PHRF racing in Massachusetts Bay. There are only 2 other J109s within a 10 hour sail that race in our area, so no one-design options for us...

 

...I've searched through the forum on J109 and IRC, and there is some helpful info, but nothing that really addresses this head on. So any input from 109s (or similar boats) using a #2 would be greatly appreciated. And thanks in advance...

 

 

 

Hello J109 Guy

 

If it is of any interest to you I have a 109 in Asia which is raced solely under IRC in the same sort of light wind conditions you mention. I have light and medium 105% jibs, but both are the same size that completely maxes out the foretriangle area. We removed the split furling drum (but kept the foil and main unit) so the jibs can be tacked to the deck and are full forestay length, deck sweeping and when fully in-hauled to the coachroof the leech of the sail is only millimetres in front of the spreaders. Sail area is about 32m², which is a couple of m² bigger than the standard no 3 class jib. We keep the light up to about 10 knots TWS, and then switch to the medium, which is good to 18 or so, depending how much weight is on the rail. At about 8 knots, flat water, properly trimmed and with a helmsman who is concentrating, the boat has proved to be very very fast and we can on occasion outsail our A35 competition.

 

I dont understand the science of it but I am told that a properly trimmed jib in sympathy with the main closes the "slot" and the extra power generated from this more than makes up for the missing 5m² of jib sail area.

 

We have no No1 or No2, but there used to be another 109 around with a 155% genoa. This boat was unable to sail faster and could only point 5 degrees lower, so that was evidence enough to me to stick with the combination we have. The boat does becomes sticky in 5 knots or less, but this is when we loose concentration, give up and start to think about going home - as who wants to sail in that!

 

A loose luff type code zero flown off the sprit completes the headsail wardrode - this sail can be quite fun as in 5-6 knots cracked off at about 70 TWA the boat sails as fast as the wind speed - which I have never quite figured out but it makes me smile anyway.

 

Finally we have a 112m² big running kite which is the dog's bollocks. This combination gives us a rating of 1.022 and we can do very nicely with it, when we put the effort in.

 

Good luck with your deliberations.

 

nickjs,

 

Very good stuff. Our #3 is a shade under 30 m2. Our #1 is 43 m2. With the light stuff we have around here I just can't fathom being able to give up almost 50% more sail area.

 

For spins, we do use a larger 121 m2 jumbo PHRF chute. We did not go as big as Mustang did with his 138, as the rating hit would have pushed us out of our class. We have a reacher spin, but it is an 80 TWA sail. Again, if we go to a true code-0 70 TWA we get a ratings hit and out of our class again. That being said, the "reacher" spin is a hoot to fly in the light stuff. It is cool to be going 4-5 knots when the TWS is 3!!!

 

After all of this input I would say I am leaning AGAINST adding a #2. I could replace my 3-year old med/heavy #1 with a new med #1 and call it a day. And if I did do any IRC in the future (which is likely down in BB and Newport) I could just go with the #3 for the cert.

 

Decisions, decision, decision...But thanks to you and everyone for the info!

 

Bad idea, The boats that run #3 size headsails have had the sails designed for the lighter winds, Effectivly their new #1 will be about same measurements as your #3 but have alot different mould shape

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