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SNG writes to GGYC regarding the ongoing litigation

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AC05.03.2010 (23:09 CET) - Geneva, Switzerland - Société Nautique de Genève

 

SNG writes to GGYC regarding the ongoing litigation

 

Société Nautique de Genève writes to the Golden Gate Yacht Club requesting that - for the good of the sport - the GGYC agrees to end all litigation concerning the 33rd America’s Cup and all prior Cups...

 

The SNG reiterates that it stands ready to withdraw its challenges to the Deed compliance of GGYC’s boat, and to exchange a mutual release regarding all claims arising out of the 33rd America’s Cup and all prior Cups. To read the letter in full, please click here.

 

Alinghi - http://multimedia.alinghi.com/multimedia/docs/2010/03/100305_SNG_letter_to_GGYC.pdf

 

SAAC - 100305_SNG_letter_to_GGYC.pdf

 

Ms. Melinda Erkelens

BMW ORACLE Racing

5 March 2010

 

America’s Cup

 

Dear Melinda,

 

I write to request, once again, that GGYC agree to end all litigation concerning the 33rd America’s Cup and all prior Cups. We previously made that request to you by letter dated February 18, 2010, in which we asked GGYC to covenant “that all litigation shall now end,” and affirmed our intention to “cease litigation against GGYC

and to assign, transfer and deliver the Cup, and all related rights, to GGYC as soon as possible.” Similarly, by letter dated March 3, 2010, our New York counsel reached out to yours to follow up on their many attempts made on behalf of SNG “to determine whether the parties could resolve all litigation.”

 

To date, GGYC has not agreed to end the litigation that has now been pending for over two years. To facilitate bringing our disputes to an end and the transfer of the Cup, I reiterate that SNG stands ready to withdraw its challenges to the Deed compliance of GGYC’s boat, and to exchange a mutual release regarding all claims

arising out of the 33rd America’s Cup and all prior Cups. I hope, for the good of the sport, that GGYC is prepared to do the same.

 

I look forward to learning your position as soon as possible.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Fred Meyer

Vice-Commodore

Cc: Marcus Young, Commodore GGYC

Pierre-Yves Firmenich, Commodore SNG

 

--------

 

NOTE:

 

This letter is aimed at the BOFD yet the above SNG letter at the time I posted is only found on the Alinghi site.

 

Also, why are they writing to Melinda and not Marcus directly. Bad blood or Alinghi is running the show?

 

Further SNG hasn't completed their duties and obligations as a Trustee "to assign, transfer and deliver the Cup, and all related rights, to GGYC as soon as possible"

 

Let's remember race 2 that never happened according to SNG. Now are they going to say GGYC stole the Cup after the presentation???

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I reiterate that SNG stands ready to withdraw its challenges to the Deed compliance of GGYC’s French boat.

 

Yours sincerely,

Fred Meyer

Vice-Commodore

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This is really rich, what planet does Meyer live on. Oh hell, we tried to screw you for two and a half years, cost you millions in legal fees, but since you beat us on the water and it looks like you will once again beat us in the court room, lets just call it quits. We'll withdraw our suits if you'll do the same. "Can't we all just get along?"

 

I hope no one at SNG is holding their breath waiting for a reply from GGYC, the only reply I would send would be a bill for legal fees and a note saying "pay these in full and then we will talk about the outstanding legal actions".

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Yeah right - as if SNG, and specifically Fred Meyer - have done anything for the good of the sport.

 

I just wonder how hard Larry laughed when he read this.

 

Fred, is what you did during Race 2, and your pathetic letter, "good for the sport"?

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Anyone else heard a rumor that SNG is dragging its feet on executing the turnover of whatever dubious intellectual property ACM owns?

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Anyone else heard a rumor that SNG is dragging its feet on executing the turnover of whatever dubious intellectual property ACM owns?

sure seems that way.... almost sounds like they are trying to use the turn over to end the court stuff.. I guess they don't exactly understand they lost.

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Translation.

 

You kicked our ass in court.

We got a brief view of victory in winning one appeal which was over turned.

You kicked our ass at the design table.

You kicked our ass in the Construction phase.

You kicked our ass in the on going development phase.

You kicked our ass in deed interperation.

You kicked our ass on the water.

You kicked our ass in boat handling.

You kicked our ass in speed. (Maybe we should have used American made wings instead of American made sails.)

You kicked our ass around the race twice easily.

The PRO kicked our committee's ass.

Our cartoonist quit.

But we think we can win something now and will drop that if you stop kicking us while we are really down.

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Not so much ACM but America's Cup Properties Inc who have all the IP like americascup.com, trademarks etc.

 

From these letters it certainly sounds like they haven't handed it over yet, possibly trying to hold it ransom?

affirmed our intention to “cease litigation against GGYC and to assign, transfer and deliver the Cup, and all related rights, to GGYC as soon as possible."

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Translation.

 

You kicked our ass in court.

We got a brief view of victory in winning one appeal which was over turned.

You kicked our ass at the design table.

You kicked our ass in the Construction phase.

You kicked our ass in the on going development phase.

You kicked our ass in deed interperation.

You kicked our ass on the water.

You kicked our ass in boat handling.

You kicked our ass in speed. (Maybe we should have used American made wings instead of American made sails.)

You kicked our ass around the race twice easily.

The PRO kicked our committee's ass.

Our cartoonist quit.

But we think we can win something now and will drop that if you stop kicking us while we are really down.

 

In the immortal words of Sir Charles Barkley, " Sometimes you just need to take your ass whoopin' and go home"

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This letter is quite intriguing for what we don't see on it:

1: The lack of respect for GGYC as the new trustee, by not communicating directly to them. They don't even have the manners and etiquette to address the letter properly!!

2: The form of the letter is the same as Meyer's "Open Letter", suggesting it's a personal attempt by Meyer to get things settled. The initial "open letter" was setting the scene for this letter. must be under some painful pressure from SNG to sort out the shit he's been responsible for.

3: The tone of the letter is one of pleading with GGYC, and by default Larry, to call off the legal actions. My guess is they have not prepared a response to the CIC action to be filed by Monday, probably assuming/praying that Larry would call the CIC action before then. The same way they assumed Race2 was going to be called off.

4: The letter implies that they have not completed the assignment of the trusteeship to GGYC: holding it hostage as leverage over the CIC and BoFD actions would be counter-productive for SNG, but not at all surprising given everything else they've engaged in thus far.

 

Things must be getting terribly warm up in Lake Geneva for this time of year...desperation time!!

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On first read and first impression, if I were M.E., this would whet my appetite. But it seems that more reasonable heads are prevailing and they are hunkered down right now, planning their plan. And there's a lot to think about.

 

What do you think the decision process is around how to proceed? I imagine they are taking great pleasure in watching FM & Co pull out all the stops with these threatening letters and at the same time ask for a 'covenant.' Ernesto couldn't even offer a simple "Congratulations" to the team after he lost. Do they really expect BOR not to tease them out to the last moment?

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Anyone else heard a rumor that SNG is dragging its feet on executing the turnover of whatever dubious intellectual property ACM owns?

 

Yes, amongst other things

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Anyone else heard a rumor that SNG is dragging its feet on executing the turnover of whatever dubious intellectual property ACM owns?

 

AND THE ACCOUNTING IS STILL OVER DUE

 

 

AC PROPERTIES ARE TRUST CORPUS

 

NO NY FILINGS EITHER

 

NYAG STILL STALLING MORE SOON CHEERS

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Many laughed when I said Freds letter was a legal maneuver, and not PR. I think this pretty much settles it.

 

Indeed, they are holding the orderly transfer of the trusteeship as ransom for a release.

 

The question is how much that "uncertainty" of the trusteeship matters to Larry. I doubt very much. He'll just forge ahead and force SNG to rack up millions in legal fees to try to stop him.

 

Yes, SNG is a rich club, but I would love to see the letter where they ask the members for a special appropriation for the "Wonderful new legal campaign we are going to build next to the dock for the children to play in"

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.

 

Just watch.

 

The only doubt I have is whether the settlement will be private under NDA, and whether it will be between SNG and LE, or EB and LE directly.

 

This discussion is only about who has to eat the crow.

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SNG suddenly going public is very interesting, after being such strong secrecy advocates about everything for so long. SNG has completely ignored their responsibilities as trustee for 2 1/2 years, caused more problems than can be imagined, and now that Alinghi has lost the cup, Fred suddenly wants everything to "just go away".

 

And Fred seems concerned why GGYC has not responded. Fat chance Fred, take a glance in the rear view mirror and recognize who your dealing with. My guess is that you're not looking at Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Correct, you and Ernesto have jerked around one of the most powerful and wealthy men in the world for over 2 1/2 years repeatedly and unsuccesfully trying to cheat in a frigging sailboat race. Yes, a sailboat race. In case you've forgotten how LE and RC deal with ultimatiums, maybe this will refresh your memory.

 

Adding insult to injury, SNG has threatened to not reassign trusteeship and all related AC rights to GGYC unless all lawsuits are dropped for the 33rd and all previous cups. I wonder if their is anything else Fred forgot to ask for.

 

For starters, given the gravity of the claims made in the BFD complaint, I'd ask Fred to issue a formal retraction for the comments made by Alinghi regarding the Singapore negotiations, along with a formal written and unreserved apology from Butterworth to Richard Slater, Russell Coutts, Tom Ehman and David Kellett and David Tillitt of ISAF for the false statements made about the actual circumstances under which the negotiations fell apart, as requested in this letter, which Alinghi totally ignored.

 

Second, I'd request SNG provide a formal written response to why they ignored GGYC's concerns over SNG's irresponsible actions as trustee on behalf of Ernesto, which were clearly stated in this October 15th 2009 letter to the President and Members of Comite Central/SNG, with reference to the non-deed compliant venue selection of Ras Al Khaimah.

 

Third, I would state that the BFD complaint is being revised to include among other things, the mutiny of SNG race committee members at the start of the second race, along with SNG's threats to withhold assigning, transferring and delivering the Cup, and all related rights to GGYC, as stated in SNG's letter of March 5th, 2010.

 

Fourth, I would demand full reimbursment for all legal fees, court costs and related expenses incurred as a result of SNG's irresponsible actions as trustee, in the form of an immediate wire transfer or certified bank check drawn against a U.S. bank.

 

And fifth, GGYC should demand that SNG petition the NYSC to be removed as a past AC trustee, and that SNG, Ernesto and his heirs be banned from any future participation in any and all America's Cup events, in any capacity.

 

SNG and Ernesto are probably the best examples I've ever seen of people that "just don't get it".

 

May they wallow in their failure of the 33rd AC forever.

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What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.

 

Just watch.

 

Popcorn is ready.

 

Next to the design / build / unveiling process and the races themselves, this could be the most enjoyable part of this whole Cup cycle. Man I hope you are correct, and this all unfolds as publicly as possible.

 

GRAB THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES!

PitchforksandTorches.jpg

 

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Yes, SNG is a rich club, but I would love to see the letter where they ask the members for a special appropriation for the "Wonderful new legal campaign we are going to build next to the dock for the children to play in"

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

You really show a total lack of understanding of the situation at SNG. The one thing the club does not have is very shallow pockets. I asked a member what would happen if LE went after the club directly and EB didn't pay the costs. His reply was that the club had no financial worries and could handle an action of that size out of its reserves but that it would never come to that as the costs would be covered by a few very rich individuals who wouldn't think twice about providing the financial support needed.

 

Your idea that the club would ever write to members asking for money is simply wrong. It would never happen.It's not the way things would work.

 

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.
Again, you show a total lack of understanding about SNG. There will never be a mutiny against EB, just like there will never be a problem over who pays for legal costs. This isn't some tin pot little club in, say, San Fransisco, that needs the benevelence of some big shot billionaire in order to survive. ;)

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Yes, SNG is a rich club, but I would love to see the letter where they ask the members for a special appropriation for the "Wonderful new legal campaign we are going to build next to the dock for the children to play in"

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

You really show a total lack of understanding of the situation at SNG. The one thing the club does not have is very shallow pockets. I asked a member what would happen if LE went after the club directly and EB didn't pay the costs. His reply was that the club had no financial worries and could handle an action of that size out of its reserves but that it would never come to that as the costs would be covered by a few very rich individuals who wouldn't think twice about providing the financial support needed.

 

Your idea that the club would ever write to members asking for money is simply wrong. It would never happen.It's not the way things would work.

 

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.
Again, you show a total lack of understanding about SNG. There will never be a mutiny against EB, just like there will never be a problem over who pays for legal costs. This isn't some tin pot little club in, say, San Fransisco, that needs the benevelence of some big shot billionaire in order to survive. ;)

 

Simon,

 

Thanks for your clarification of the financial resiliency of SNG, which I don't doubt.

 

Now through the BFD LE can proceed to charge SNG with all his legal fees and related expenses knowing they'll be paid promptly. That doesn't explain Fred's wimpering letter though.

 

My guess is that after 2 1/2 years of EB's bullshit they are north of $8M.

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Yes, SNG is a rich club, but I would love to see the letter where they ask the members for a special appropriation for the "Wonderful new legal campaign we are going to build next to the dock for the children to play in"

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

You really show a total lack of understanding of the situation at SNG. The one thing the club does not have is very shallow pockets. I asked a member what would happen if LE went after the club directly and EB didn't pay the costs. His reply was that the club had no financial worries and could handle an action of that size out of its reserves but that it would never come to that as the costs would be covered by a few very rich individuals who wouldn't think twice about providing the financial support needed.

 

Your idea that the club would ever write to members asking for money is simply wrong. It would never happen.It's not the way things would work.

 

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.
Again, you show a total lack of understanding about SNG. There will never be a mutiny against EB, just like there will never be a problem over who pays for legal costs. This isn't some tin pot little club in, say, San Fransisco, that needs the benevelence of some big shot billionaire in order to survive. ;)

 

Simon - I agree, SNG is made up of very wealthy people - but what is the number that is assumed here that would be picked up by some members?

 

Is it $1 million, $10 million, or even as much as $50 million?

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Many laughed when I said Freds letter was a legal maneuver, and not PR. I think this pretty much settles it.

 

Indeed, they are holding the orderly transfer of the trusteeship as ransom for a release.

...

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.

 

Just watch.

 

The only doubt I have is whether the settlement will be private under NDA, and whether it will be between SNG and LE, or EB and LE directly.

 

 

my much earlier attempt to post went sour as my ISP has server problems at work. Wonderful.

 

The letter is curious as it is partially addressed to ME at the BOR team, and not the GGYC yacht club, hoping for a friendlier audience?

Or as noted is some earlier letter from 2/18 addressed to whom we do not know, Mr. Meyer is out of the loop and hoping to get some info on how to mop this up. Or has Fred been cut out of some discussions?

As this letter dovetails with the "open letter" that many questioned, that was authentic too.

 

They have:

Withholding the properties of the Cup. (Good question here is has GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the Deed? I bet they would if it has been presented yet.)

Willingness to drop the cross motion if GGYC drops Everything.

 

With the very recent events of the RC attempted mutiny and the poor trophy presentation behavior of the SNG flag officers, which LE got to experience some of first hand rather than just in report form, this flurry of transmittals will not go far.

 

There Might be a secret agreement, an out of Court settlement, but if one is close, Fred is out of the loop.

 

I go back to my earlier opinion, the objective for some time has been to get SNG and eB out of the Cup business for good, as the goal. The Breach suit will drag out, if SNG does not have a reply I would think the last set of lawyers will fire their client for not authorizing them to do their job, or like in California, if the client lies to their attorney they can fire their client very quickly.

 

Anyone else think the Breach case will be enhanced in new filings on Monday?

 

 

 

 

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Yes, SNG is a rich club, but I would love to see the letter where they ask the members for a special appropriation for the "Wonderful new legal campaign we are going to build next to the dock for the children to play in"

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

You really show a total lack of understanding of the situation at SNG. The one thing the club does not have is very shallow pockets. I asked a member what would happen if LE went after the club directly and EB didn't pay the costs. His reply was that the club had no financial worries and could handle an action of that size out of its reserves but that it would never come to that as the costs would be covered by a few very rich individuals who wouldn't think twice about providing the financial support needed.

 

Your idea that the club would ever write to members asking for money is simply wrong. It would never happen.It's not the way things would work.

 

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.
Again, you show a total lack of understanding about SNG. There will never be a mutiny against EB, just like there will never be a problem over who pays for legal costs. This isn't some tin pot little club in, say, San Fransisco, that needs the benevelence of some big shot billionaire in order to survive. ;)

 

 

I'll wager that my total lack of understanding is much closer to reality than yours.

 

First, if the general membership finds out that they are spending 5 or 10 million of their reserves on a lawsuit to defend FM and EB's honor and checkbook, I assure you of the mutiny I describe. Unless you think the members are stupid.

 

In terms of actual cash flows, you are actually agreeing with me however. You say the check will be written by a select few lucky members. I'd say those members are FM and EB. The remaining members will demand it if they don't offer it. The only reason there wouldn't be a mutiny is if the perpetrators get ahead of the curve and cover the costs.

 

This is not an SNG specific thing. It is how clubs and their shared finances work. If you think that these guys got rich enough to be SNG members by being stupid, then I think your opinion that they will support financing a new lawsuit is internally consistent.

 

 

 

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SNG suddenly going public is very interesting, after being such strong secrecy advocates about everything for so long. SNG has completely ignored their responsibilities as trustee for 2 1/2 years, caused more problems than can be imagined, and now that Alinghi has lost the cup, Fred suddenly wants everything to "just go away".

 

And Fred seems concerned why GGYC has not responded. Fat chance Fred, take a glance in the rear view mirror and recognize who your dealing with. My guess is that you're not looking at Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Correct, you and Ernesto have jerked around one of the most powerful and wealthy men in the world for over 2 1/2 years repeatedly and unsuccesfully trying to cheat in a frigging sailboat race. Yes, a sailboat race. In case you've forgotten how LE and RC deal with ultimatiums, maybe this will refresh your memory.

 

Adding insult to injury, SNG has threatened to not reassign trusteeship and all related AC rights to GGYC unless all lawsuits are dropped for the 33rd and all previous cups. I wonder if their is anything else Fred forgot to ask for.

 

For starters, given the gravity of the claims made in the BFD complaint, I'd ask Fred to issue a formal retraction for the comments made by Alinghi regarding the Singapore negotiations, along with a formal written and unreserved apology from Butterworth to Richard Slater, Russell Coutts, Tom Ehman and David Kellett and David Tillitt of ISAF for the false statements made about the actual circumstances under which the negotiations fell apart, as requested in this letter, which Alinghi totally ignored.

 

Second, I'd request SNG provide a formal written response to why they ignored GGYC's concerns over SNG's irresponsible actions as trustee on behalf of Ernesto, which were clearly stated in this October 15th 2009 letter to the President and Members of Comite Central/SNG, with reference to the non-deed compliant venue selection of Ras Al Khaimah.

 

Third, I would state that the BFD complaint is being revised to include among other things, the mutiny of SNG race committee members at the start of the second race, along with SNG's threats to withhold assigning, transferring and delivering the Cup, and all related rights to GGYC, as stated in SNG's letter of March 5th, 2010.

 

Fourth, I would demand full reimbursment for all legal fees, court costs and related expenses incurred as a result of SNG's irresponsible actions as trustee, in the form of an immediate wire transfer or certified bank check drawn against a U.S. bank.

 

And fifth, GGYC should demand that SNG petition the NYSC to be removed as a past AC trustee, and that SNG, Ernesto and his heirs be banned from any future participation in any and all America's Cup events, in any capacity.

 

SNG and Ernesto are probably the best examples I've ever seen of people that "just don't get it".

 

May they wallow in their failure of the 33rd AC forever.

 

Attn: David Boies...see attached.

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First, if the general membership finds out that they are spending 5 or 10 million of their reserves on a lawsuit to defend FM and EB's honor and checkbook, I assure you of the mutiny I describe. Unless you think the members are stupid.

 

In terms of actual cash flows, you are actually agreeing with me however. You say the check will be written by a select few lucky members. I'd say those members are FM and EB. The remaining members will demand it if they don't offer it. The only reason there wouldn't be a mutiny is if the perpetrators get ahead of the curve and cover the costs.

 

This is not an SNG specific thing. It is how clubs and their shared finances work. If you think that these guys got rich enough to be SNG members by being stupid, then I think your opinion that they will support financing a new lawsuit is internally consistent.

 

 

The key dates are approaching too fast to avoid the legal train wreck that is approaching. There will be a later opportunity to escape but Fred's letters indicate that the afterguard is not in control right now. Reminds me of the discussion observed on board A5 before the protest flag went up and just before it came down.

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my much earlier attempt to post went sour as my ISP has server problems at work. Wonderful.

 

The letter is curious as it is partially addressed to ME at the BOR team, and not the GGYC yacht club, hoping for a friendlier audience?

Or as noted is some earlier letter from 2/18 addressed to whom we do not know, Mr. Meyer is out of the loop and hoping to get some info on how to mop this up. Or has Fred been cut out of some discussions?

As this letter dovetails with the "open letter" that many questioned, that was authentic too.

 

They have:

Withholding the properties of the Cup. (Good question here is has GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the Deed? I bet they would if it has been presented yet.)

Willingness to drop the cross motion if GGYC drops Everything.

 

With the very recent events of the RC attempted mutiny and the poor trophy presentation behavior of the SNG flag officers, which LE got to experience some of first hand rather than just in report form, this flurry of transmittals will not go far.

 

There Might be a secret agreement, an out of Court settlement, but if one is close, Fred is out of the loop.

 

I go back to my earlier opinion, the objective for some time has been to get SNG and eB out of the Cup business for good, as the goal. The Breach suit will drag out, if SNG does not have a reply I would think the last set of lawyers will fire their client for not authorizing them to do their job, or like in California, if the client lies to their attorney they can fire their client very quickly.

 

Anyone else think the Breach case will be enhanced in new filings on Monday?

 

I believe as you that the BOFD will have some late additions thanks to these pleas and some more to come probably from FM and SNG. IMO the biggest item on the list for EB and FM is getting any agreement or settlement with LE and GGYC to be non-public. I don't believe LE is going to let these guys get away with saving any face nor $ in the areas they play and do business in....rightly so. When push comes to shove EB and FM will do all in their power to avoid SNG being dragged into this. Hence I fully expect to see EB and FM roll out the PR machine to warp the moral high ground for anyone who is still left to listen to them....internal SNG letters that get leaked. Like before EB and FM are going to BS as much as possible once again to try and get themselves through the eye of the needle.

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As a final thought before I go out drinking.

 

Think about who is in a hurry. Larry or FM and EB?

 

I would argue that formalizing the ttship is of little value to LE. He can get going on AC 34 without it by petitioning the NYAG.

 

The only way SNG gets defence time for the BofD is if they spend big bucks on an aggressive campaign.

 

That puts them at a distinct disadvantage, and it makes the financial shitfight at SNG immediately real.

 

Popcorn!

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As a final thought before I go out drinking.

 

Think about who is in a hurry. Larry or FM and EB?

 

I would argue that formalizing the ttship is of little value to LE. He can get going on AC 34 without it by petitioning the NYAG.

 

The only way SNG gets defence time for the BofD is if they spend big bucks on an aggressive campaign.

 

That puts them at a distinct disadvantage, and it makes the financial shitfight at SNG immediately real.

 

Popcorn!

 

A preliminary thought after having started drinking;

 

It's not as if GGYC has a pending SNG lawsuit about YCR being a valid challenger or anything.

 

GGYC can let SNG fry in the oil they themselves provided.

 

These guys have put 2 1/2 years of dedicated effort into fucking with the cup - they deserve to cook like french fires in hot grease.

 

Speaking of food, time to fire up a strip steak on the grill and ponder the temperature of grease Fred and EB will fry in:)

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GGYC can let SNG fry in the oil they themselves provided.

...and continue to provide.

If I were the judge in the BOFD case, I would look at this latest letter as the full and absolute proof of their breach - the letter basically says "we're not going to perform our final responsibilities as Trustee - the proper transfer of goods and properties to the new Trustee - unless you let us out of this BOFD suit." It is an ultimatum that, at the end of the day, points the gun at their own head.

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the letter basically says "we're not going to perform our final responsibilities as Trustee - the proper transfer of goods and properties to the new Trustee - unless you let us out of this BOFD suit." It is an ultimatum that, at the end of the day, points the gun at their own head.
Looks like that to me too.

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GGYC can let SNG fry in the oil they themselves provided.

...and continue to provide.

If I were the judge in the BOFD case, I would look at this latest letter as the full and absolute proof of their breach - the letter basically says "we're not going to perform our final responsibilities as Trustee - the proper transfer of goods and properties to the new Trustee - unless you let us out of this BOFD suit." It is an ultimatum that, at the end of the day, points the gun at their own head.

 

Summary Judgement, that would be rapid justice.

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the letter basically says "we're not going to perform our final responsibilities as Trustee - the proper transfer of goods and properties to the new Trustee - unless you let us out of this BOFD suit." It is an ultimatum that, at the end of the day, points the gun at their own head.
Looks like that to me too.

As stated in point # 3 here, which should cover most issues.

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the letter basically says "we're not going to perform our final responsibilities as Trustee - the proper transfer of goods and properties to the new Trustee - unless you let us out of this BOFD suit." It is an ultimatum that, at the end of the day, points the gun at their own head.
Looks like that to me too.

As stated in point # 3 here, which should cover most issues.

 

The letter from SNG's Fred does want me to double check that GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the terms of the Deed. I know they would have, IF it had been offered, but did SNG do so? It would have been one of the final acts of the outgoing trustee, and would render mush or most of Fred's whining moot. The follow on behavior of SNG just makes a messy exit that much more so.

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The letter from SNG's Fred does want me to double check that GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the terms of the Deed. I know they would have, IF it had been offered, but did SNG do so? It would have been one of the final acts of the outgoing trustee, and would render mush or most of Fred's whining moot. The follow on behavior of SNG just makes a messy exit that much more so.

 

The tone of Fred Flintstone's letter suggests they have not signed over the assignment to GGYC. Threatening Larry to drop outstanding legal actions or else is probably the wrong tack to use on someone whose charity they're trying to cultivate.

What hasn't been written about is what issues are being pursued from "prior Cups" Meyer refers to in his letter: any ideas anyone?

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The letter from SNG's Fred does want me to double check that GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the terms of the Deed. I know they would have, IF it had been offered, but did SNG do so? It would have been one of the final acts of the outgoing trustee, and would render mush or most of Fred's whining moot. The follow on behavior of SNG just makes a messy exit that much more so.

 

The tone of Fred Flintstone's letter suggests they have not signed over the assignment to GGYC. Threatening Larry to drop outstanding legal actions or else is probably the wrong tack to use on someone whose charity they're trying to cultivate.

What hasn't been written about is what issues are being pursued from "prior Cups" Meyer refers to in his letter: any ideas anyone?

Here is GGYC's BFD complaint filed October 26th, which provides details of Alinghi's breach of trust and questionable actions as trustee, of which their are many. If half of these claims are true, and I have no reason to believe they're not, then Alinghi pretty much fucked themselves.

 

You be the judge.

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the letter basically says "we're not going to perform our final responsibilities as Trustee - the proper transfer of goods and properties to the new Trustee - unless you let us out of this BOFD suit." It is an ultimatum that, at the end of the day, points the gun at their own head.
Looks like that to me too.

As stated in point # 3 here, which should cover most issues.

 

The letter from SNG's Fred does want me to double check that GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the terms of the Deed. I know they would have, IF it had been offered, but did SNG do so? It would have been one of the final acts of the outgoing trustee, and would render mush or most of Fred's whining moot. The follow on behavior of SNG just makes a messy exit that much more so.

I don't know now but will be able to tell you for sure tomorrow ;).

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The letter from SNG's Fred does want me to double check that GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the terms of the Deed. I know they would have, IF it had been offered, but did SNG do so? It would have been one of the final acts of the outgoing trustee, and would render mush or most of Fred's whining moot. The follow on behavior of SNG just makes a messy exit that much more so.

 

The tone of Fred Flintstone's letter suggests they have not signed over the assignment to GGYC. Threatening Larry to drop outstanding legal actions or else is probably the wrong tack to use on someone whose charity they're trying to cultivate.

What hasn't been written about is what issues are being pursued from "prior Cups" Meyer refers to in his letter: any ideas anyone?

 

Whoa up. Don't go dragging the good name of Fred Flintstone into this. He has integrity, is funny and is loved the world over. The scumbag is a very different kettle of fish.

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Yes, SNG is a rich club, but I would love to see the letter where they ask the members for a special appropriation for the "Wonderful new legal campaign we are going to build next to the dock for the children to play in"

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

You really show a total lack of understanding of the situation at SNG. The one thing the club does not have is very shallow pockets. I asked a member what would happen if LE went after the club directly and EB didn't pay the costs. His reply was that the club had no financial worries and could handle an action of that size out of its reserves but that it would never come to that as the costs would be covered by a few very rich individuals who wouldn't think twice about providing the financial support needed.

 

Your idea that the club would ever write to members asking for money is simply wrong. It would never happen.It's not the way things would work.

 

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.
Again, you show a total lack of understanding about SNG. There will never be a mutiny against EB, just like there will never be a problem over who pays for legal costs. This isn't some tin pot little club in, say, San Fransisco, that needs the benevelence of some big shot billionaire in order to survive. ;)

 

 

+1

 

But what can you expect from a bunch of NASCAR fans.

 

As I said a couple of weeks ago: The only thing worse than bad losers are BAD FUCKING WINNERS.

(although I don´t consider BOR`s entire campaign a win in any ways, at least not for the sport - but that goes for SNG as well)

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+1

 

But what can you expect from a bunch of NASCAR fans.

 

As I said a couple of weeks ago: The only thing worse than bad losers are BAD FUCKING WINNERS.

(although I don´t consider BOR`s entire campaign a win in any ways, at least not for the sport - but that goes for SNG as well)

 

Hey Boyscout...

 

What we are commenting on are the actions (letters) of the loser.... not the winner. At least not yet.

 

But if you had been made to waste some 2 - 5 million on lawyers over the past 2.5 years fighting someone you truly thought was trying to cheat, wouldn't you try to collect your money? Especially now that it is visible how necessary it was to enforce the rules?

 

I dont' thing that is being a poor winner. I think it is just not letting yourself be ripped off.

 

And Nascar... what's that?

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Yes, SNG is a rich club, but I would love to see the letter where they ask the members for a special appropriation for the "Wonderful new legal campaign we are going to build next to the dock for the children to play in"

 

Larry knows that legally the counterparty has a very weak hand. But more importantly, he knows they have VERY shallow pockets. Not because they aren't individually rich, but because the membership is very unlikely to give a shit if FM is skewered. And because the case has no upside for the individual membership who have nothing tied up emotionally in holding the cup... since they don't anymore.

You really show a total lack of understanding of the situation at SNG. The one thing the club does not have is very shallow pockets. I asked a member what would happen if LE went after the club directly and EB didn't pay the costs. His reply was that the club had no financial worries and could handle an action of that size out of its reserves but that it would never come to that as the costs would be covered by a few very rich individuals who wouldn't think twice about providing the financial support needed.

 

Your idea that the club would ever write to members asking for money is simply wrong. It would never happen.It's not the way things would work.

 

 

What this is going to turn into is a mutiny aganst EB, and a demand that he pay up for the plague he has brought on their club. And Larry is going to chuckle as the SNG members are demanding that EB pay Larry's legal fees.
Again, you show a total lack of understanding about SNG. There will never be a mutiny against EB, just like there will never be a problem over who pays for legal costs. This isn't some tin pot little club in, say, San Fransisco, that needs the benevelence of some big shot billionaire in order to survive. ;)

 

 

+1

 

But what can you expect from a bunch of NASCAR fans.

 

As I said a couple of weeks ago: The only thing worse than bad losers are BAD FUCKING WINNERS.

(although I don´t consider BOR`s entire campaign a win in any ways, at least not for the sport - but that goes for SNG as well)

Above is all so much bogus opine. We all know what is going to happen, all said and done.

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" If you want a level playing field....

then go enter some other regatta ."

 

----Brad Butterworth

 

Ernesto reminds me of presidential candidate John Edwards who in the primaries tried to make deals with Obama.

 

Before Iowa, Edwards said that Obama could be HIS v.p. if he dropped out.

 

After Obama's Iowa cacus victory , Edwards was offering to drop out of the primaries if he could Obama's v.p.

 

After getting his ass kicked in NH, Edwards begged to be Obama's AG.

 

After getting his ass kicked Ernesto is getting more and more desperate.

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---------------------------simple SimonN----

 

right right---

no financial worries------

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The letter from SNG's Fred does want me to double check that GGYC signed the agreement to uphold the terms of the Deed. I know they would have, IF it had been offered, but did SNG do so? It would have been one of the final acts of the outgoing trustee, and would render mush or most of Fred's whining moot. The follow on behavior of SNG just makes a messy exit that much more so.

 

I suspect that GGYC drafted and executed a transfer document and handed it over to SNG when the took the cup. I also suspect that they forwarded the 'half-executed' document to the NYYC (as required).

 

Any lawyers out there who can read the DoG and see if it is even necessary for SNG to sign the transfer document?

 

I don't see how they could have actually physically turned the cup over without GGYC having signed a legally binding document promising they would abide by the terms of the DoG. I also doubt that GGYC would have failed to do so before taking possession of the cup.

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And Nascar...   what's that?<br />

A place where fucking with the rules generally results in your finding yourself in seriously deep shit.  Kinda like the NYSC, apparently not much like ISAF...

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I may be mis-reading this but the word "BLACKMAIL" springs to mind. I am sure SNG have a statement about ethical behaviour and being a "gentleman" somewhere in their rules and regulations.

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It's silly to imagine that SNG will cover the legal costs; while they may recieve some spontaneous support from some patriotic SNG members EB & FM will feel obligated to cover those costs themselves.

 

In the end LE will probably come to terms on a settlement as he focuses on getting the AC back on track, meaning an end to the legal embarrassments. Unfortunately a neccessary component of the settlement will be an admission/acknowledgement of remorse for the egotistical motivations & evil intentions on the part of some.

 

post-9720-126789244469_thumb.gif

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JSK is pretty much over this. All GGYC needs to do is make their filings, attend the hearing, answer any questions she asks, and then just sit back and watch SNG's lawyers squirm. Harold Bennett's testimony about what happened on the RC boat before the race 2 start will most likely be the final nail in the coffin. This letter here will be just idle chatter.

 

On the cost issue, the SNG membership obviously have the funds to pay the legal bills, but many who have that kind of money did not get that way by doling-out for some other fools folly. Supporting SNG's AC efforts is one thing, defending the legal attack is another, but throwing money away down a rat hole on a once-again losing proposition is not going to go over well. Also, how much more do you think EB is going to flush away, especially after the what, 5 mil he had to fork over to RAK to get A5 out of there?

 

There is not the ambiguity in this case as there was coming out of the '88 match. There you had the argument of a cat against a mono-hull, pretty definitive. Here you had two multi's, each boat led and appeared to have a chance of winning, the races went-off generally per the terms of the DoG and the regatta rules. This 'French Boat Design' business is just another one of SNG's ruse's to sidetrack the main argument.

 

Just as 17 ran-down A5 like a deer in the headlights, this case will be pretty much the same come March 10.........

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

 

 

And at least a good fight once every now and then........................................

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

 

 

And at least a good fight once every now and then........................................

 

 

no doubt, then there's danica in a tight nomex suit, which doesn't exactly suck...

 

but aside from that, racing is racing whether boats, cars, bikes, whatever.......what makes NASCAR interesting is that it is a case study in sports marketing success. sailing in general as an activity could learn a lot from the management team at NASCAR without a doubt.....

 

and with that i will cease the hijack and return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of the debacle of AC33, the antithesis of the NASCAR case study in sports marketing..... :)

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

 

 

It always amuses me that nascar is even compared to sailing...

 

sailing is a sport that people actually go out and do, rather than sit on a couch, drink bud and watch tv..

 

and one is a sport where cheating has been a big part of it from day 1, the other where the racing is policed by the participants..

 

and nascar is shedding shit loads of viewers and bums on seats on a weekly basis, to the point where crashes and fights are being actively encouraged by a governing body that has decided not to police the drivers anymore...

 

I'll stay on the side of the sailors you consider idiots...

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This may not be the perfect thread for it, but had we seen lines from the Bennett email before? anyway..

--

 

 

Yachting: Mutiny creates waves

7 March, 2010

 

4 a.m. | Alinghi have written their own postscript to one of the most controversial and arrogant America's Cup tenures with a letter from Societe Nautique de Geneve vice-commodore, Fred Meyer, one of the three 'mutineers' in the second and final race last month.

 

Race officer Harold Bennett, of New Zealand, was astonished to find that Meyer and two other Alinghi/SNG men (SNG is the yacht club backing Alinghi in the Cup) refused to help start the race against BMW Oracle claiming, among other things, that the one-metre swell was too high.

 

In an email which has already found its way into yachting legend, Bennett - himself an Alinghi appointee as race officer ahead of others who were viewed as too close to other teams - said:

 

"It was a very trying day with the dying westerly taking its time to drop and then the wait for the NE gradient to slowly gain enough momentum for us to start.

 

"That is when the s*** hit the fan as two of the Alinghi club helpers on the committee boat refused to do the start. I enlisted my boat driver and the Oracle observer Tom Ehman to do flags and I started the race.

 

"They [Meyer and the Alinghi people] were telling me that the waves were too big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [The 17 exclamation marks are as written by the normally phlegmatic Bennett]. I have never seen such disgraceful behaviour on a committee boat, believe me ... trying to influence the PRO to the point of ordering me to stop the sequence. Well, I think you all know how well that went down ..."

 

The 'mutiny' has created outrage in yachting circles around the globe as most recognise that Alinghi's giant catamaran was geared up to perform better in light winds and sea conditions.

 

The accusation that has been made was that the Swiss tried to get the race called off because conditions didn't suit their boat.

 

That is like a rugby team refusing to take the ground because the grass is too long.

 

In his letter, Meyer said the Swiss committee members had warned Bennett the race should not start because there were too many spectator boats in the start area; that the race risked not finishing until after sunset; and the waves were too high.

 

Meyer said Alinghi were penalised before the start because it was disturbed by spectator craft (other observers have said Alinghi boss Ernesto Bertarelli was helming the boat and did not do well ... ) and that it was unreasonable, unnecessary and impractical to start the race then.

 

"From a rules point of view, it is not even clear whether there was truly a race or not on that day," Meyer concluded.

 

Which doesn't take into account that both yachts started the race and finished it in daylight and without damage or incident.

 

--

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

 

 

It always amuses me that nascar is even compared to sailing...

 

sailing is a sport that people actually go out and do, rather than sit on a couch, drink bud and watch tv..

 

and one is a sport where cheating has been a big part of it from day 1, the other where the racing is policed by the participants..

 

and nascar is shedding shit loads of viewers and bums on seats on a weekly basis, to the point where crashes and fights are being actively encouraged by a governing body that has decided not to police the drivers anymore...

 

I'll stay on the side of the sailors you consider idiots...

 

good grief, are you dense!?!? I am a sailor, been doing it all my life. in addition to which i race bikes. i also like to watch bike racing and enjoyed watching the AC...the same way the tens of thousands of amateur race car drivers in the US enjoy participating in racing and watching NASCAR, or F1 for that matter...

 

my point is that those who seek to differentiate one type of racing from another when it comes to economic analysis are making specious arguments at best. at worst they are just foolish.

 

beyond that, i don't think you want to get into a numbers based dialog around relative spend in the respective categories of amateur motor sports and amateur sailing (in the US)...won't end well for you and that's before we even get to the topic of relative revenue generated by the sports re sponsorship, spectator events, etc....

 

you need to remove your emotion from the discussion and consider the real issue, which is people's choices related to their allocation of available free time and disposable income...

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All of the hue and cry to eviscerate Bertarelli and SNG is pointless. The correct answer is to do what LE & RC did after the second race: take the high road. GGYC's response should be "We can discuss the status of the various lawsuits as soon as the trust, including all accounting is completely transferred to GGYC. The two things are not related and SNG is obstructing AC34 from going forward by not completing the transfer." Then, once all of that stuff is in hand, go over it for irregularities and turn it over to the appropriate legal authorities if anything should prove out of place. As far as the outstanding suits are concerned, offer SNG the opportunity to reimburse GGYC and TNZ (remember that?) all of their legal fees rising out of AC 33, and add $2 million per AC32 team to jump start their AC34 campaigns then call it a day. I know that's not very "anarchy" but this side show has run its course and should be relegated to the history books until the next DoG match when we can all debate whether that one is more or less acrimonious than this one or than San Diego...

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

 

 

It always amuses me that nascar is even compared to sailing...

 

sailing is a sport that people actually go out and do, rather than sit on a couch, drink bud and watch tv..

 

and one is a sport where cheating has been a big part of it from day 1, the other where the racing is policed by the participants..

 

and nascar is shedding shit loads of viewers and bums on seats on a weekly basis, to the point where crashes and fights are being actively encouraged by a governing body that has decided not to police the drivers anymore...

 

I'll stay on the side of the sailors you consider idiots...

 

good grief, are you dense!?!? I am a sailor, been doing it all my life. in addition to which i race bikes. i also like to watch bike racing and enjoyed watching the AC...the same way the tens of thousands of amateur race car drivers in the US enjoy participating in racing and watching NASCAR, or F1 for that matter...

 

my point is that those who seek to differentiate one type of racing from another when it comes to economic analysis are making specious arguments at best. at worst they are just foolish.

 

beyond that, i don't think you want to get into a numbers based dialog around relative spend in the respective categories of amateur motor sports and amateur sailing (in the US)...won't end well for you and that's before we even get to the topic of relative revenue generated by the sports re sponsorship, spectator events, etc....

 

you need to remove your emotion from the discussion and consider the real issue, which is people's choices related to their allocation of available free time and disposable income...

 

 

no I'm not dense..except maybe to you, and you are the one comparing nascar to sailboat racing...

 

the thread is about YC litigation...one guy makes fun of the US with a nascar reference and you turn it into a froth job about 'numbers based dialog, economic analysis, relative revenue, real issue' ..blah.. blah

 

I have no emotion in this thread apart from thinking you're a twat..

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This may not be the perfect thread for it, but had we seen lines from the Bennett email before? anyway..

--

 

 

Yachting: Mutiny creates waves

7 March, 2010

 

4 a.m. | Alinghi have written their own postscript to one of the most controversial and arrogant America's Cup tenures with a letter from Societe Nautique de Geneve vice-commodore, Fred Meyer, one of the three 'mutineers' in the second and final race last month.

 

Race officer Harold Bennett, of New Zealand, was astonished to find that Meyer and two other Alinghi/SNG men (SNG is the yacht club backing Alinghi in the Cup) refused to help start the race against BMW Oracle claiming, among other things, that the one-metre swell was too high.

 

In an email which has already found its way into yachting legend, Bennett - himself an Alinghi appointee as race officer ahead of others who were viewed as too close to other teams - said:

 

"It was a very trying day with the dying westerly taking its time to drop and then the wait for the NE gradient to slowly gain enough momentum for us to start.

 

"That is when the s*** hit the fan as two of the Alinghi club helpers on the committee boat refused to do the start. I enlisted my boat driver and the Oracle observer Tom Ehman to do flags and I started the race.

 

"They [Meyer and the Alinghi people] were telling me that the waves were too big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [The 17 exclamation marks are as written by the normally phlegmatic Bennett]. I have never seen such disgraceful behaviour on a committee boat, believe me ... trying to influence the PRO to the point of ordering me to stop the sequence. Well, I think you all know how well that went down ..."

 

The 'mutiny' has created outrage in yachting circles around the globe as most recognise that Alinghi's giant catamaran was geared up to perform better in light winds and sea conditions.

 

The accusation that has been made was that the Swiss tried to get the race called off because conditions didn't suit their boat.

 

That is like a rugby team refusing to take the ground because the grass is too long.

 

In his letter, Meyer said the Swiss committee members had warned Bennett the race should not start because there were too many spectator boats in the start area; that the race risked not finishing until after sunset; and the waves were too high.

 

Meyer said Alinghi were penalised before the start because it was disturbed by spectator craft (other observers have said Alinghi boss Ernesto Bertarelli was helming the boat and did not do well ... ) and that it was unreasonable, unnecessary and impractical to start the race then.

 

"From a rules point of view, it is not even clear whether there was truly a race or not on that day," Meyer concluded.

 

Which doesn't take into account that both yachts started the race and finished it in daylight and without damage or incident.

 

--

 

Here goes another tidbit of color about Bennett...

 

Yesterday when I was in the Viaduct, I was talking with one of the guys that do the tours on the old AC boats. Naturally, we got into a conversation about this mutiny, and then some more of the guys came over to chime in. The mutiny is legend around here. Then one said... he can run my races any day, but keep him away from my car. I looked puzzeled... He then explained that HB manages an auto body shop here in Auckland for his 'real job'. This guy had taken his car to the shop and who signed the car in and processed the paperwork? HB. The problem is that they did a nightmare of a job. Who knows if it was HB's fault, or if the sailor guy didn't explain... or whatever.

 

I just found it amusing that this is such a small town where everyone seems to know each other.

 

Good thing the AC isn't Nascar or maybe HB would have screwed it up biggrin.gif

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

 

 

It always amuses me that nascar is even compared to sailing...

 

sailing is a sport that people actually go out and do, rather than sit on a couch, drink bud and watch tv..

 

and one is a sport where cheating has been a big part of it from day 1, the other where the racing is policed by the participants..

 

and nascar is shedding shit loads of viewers and bums on seats on a weekly basis, to the point where crashes and fights are being actively encouraged by a governing body that has decided not to police the drivers anymore...

 

I'll stay on the side of the sailors you consider idiots...

 

good grief, are you dense!?!? I am a sailor, been doing it all my life. in addition to which i race bikes. i also like to watch bike racing and enjoyed watching the AC...the same way the tens of thousands of amateur race car drivers in the US enjoy participating in racing and watching NASCAR, or F1 for that matter...

 

my point is that those who seek to differentiate one type of racing from another when it comes to economic analysis are making specious arguments at best. at worst they are just foolish.

 

beyond that, i don't think you want to get into a numbers based dialog around relative spend in the respective categories of amateur motor sports and amateur sailing (in the US)...won't end well for you and that's before we even get to the topic of relative revenue generated by the sports re sponsorship, spectator events, etc....

 

you need to remove your emotion from the discussion and consider the real issue, which is people's choices related to their allocation of available free time and disposable income...

 

 

no I'm not dense..except maybe to you, and you are the one comparing nascar to sailboat racing...

 

the thread is about YC litigation...one guy makes fun of the US with a nascar reference and you turn it into a froth job about 'numbers based dialog, economic analysis, relative revenue, real issue' ..blah.. blah

 

I have no emotion in this thread apart from thinking you're a twat..

 

Well, you're either quite dense or you have a reading comprehension problem. i'm not comparing the two activities, i'm comparing the overall economics of activities where "racing" occurs.....

 

 

Is english a second language for you?

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

Tsk, tsk... here's some of that fabled European tolerance (and smug superiority) showing itself again.

 

Please check your facts; it is the Swiss who are claiming that Race 2 never took place because of rule infractions, not the "filthy Americans." And, as to the remaining legal actions, let's wait until something happens before we decide who "love going to court."

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

 

Don't you think it's wise to finish off the legal issues rather than leave them hanging? Do you really want a bad Trustee and rule breaker like EB/SNG/Alinghi sailing? I cetainly to do NOT want them in the sport and I'm from Lotusland.

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This may not be the perfect thread for it, but had we seen lines from the Bennett email before? anyway..

--

 

Here goes another tidbit of color about Bennett...

 

....

 

I just found it amusing that this is such a small town where everyone seems to know each other.

 

Good thing the AC isn't Nascar or maybe HB would have screwed it up biggrin.gif

Great story, thanks

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

 

fred meyer has a sockpuppet :lol:

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

 

fred meyer has a sockpuppet :lol:

 

+1

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

 

Don't you think it's wise to finish off the legal issues rather than leave them hanging? Do you really want a bad Trustee and rule breaker like EB/SNG/Alinghi sailing? I cetainly to do NOT want them in the sport and I'm from Lotusland.

 

 

Both rc and le said after the race that they wanted alinghi in the next cup...

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always find it funny when people shit on nascar......let's see:

 

NASCAR: bunch of cars race around a track, shit-loads of people watch and cheer teams

 

Sailing: bunch of boats race around a "track", no-one watches, maybe 5,000 people world wide cheer for a team...

NASCAR: annual revenue somewhere between 3.5 to 4 billion

 

Sailing: annual revenue somewhere between 0 and - ..........

 

so tell me again who the idiots are????

 

 

It always amuses me that nascar is even compared to sailing...

 

sailing is a sport that people actually go out and do, rather than sit on a couch, drink bud and watch tv..

 

and one is a sport where cheating has been a big part of it from day 1, the other where the racing is policed by the participants..

 

and nascar is shedding shit loads of viewers and bums on seats on a weekly basis, to the point where crashes and fights are being actively encouraged by a governing body that has decided not to police the drivers anymore...

 

I'll stay on the side of the sailors you consider idiots...

 

good grief, are you dense!?!? I am a sailor, been doing it all my life. in addition to which i race bikes. i also like to watch bike racing and enjoyed watching the AC...the same way the tens of thousands of amateur race car drivers in the US enjoy participating in racing and watching NASCAR, or F1 for that matter...

 

my point is that those who seek to differentiate one type of racing from another when it comes to economic analysis are making specious arguments at best. at worst they are just foolish.

 

beyond that, i don't think you want to get into a numbers based dialog around relative spend in the respective categories of amateur motor sports and amateur sailing (in the US)...won't end well for you and that's before we even get to the topic of relative revenue generated by the sports re sponsorship, spectator events, etc....

 

you need to remove your emotion from the discussion and consider the real issue, which is people's choices related to their allocation of available free time and disposable income...

 

 

no I'm not dense..except maybe to you, and you are the one comparing nascar to sailboat racing...

 

the thread is about YC litigation...one guy makes fun of the US with a nascar reference and you turn it into a froth job about 'numbers based dialog, economic analysis, relative revenue, real issue' ..blah.. blah

 

I have no emotion in this thread apart from thinking you're a twat..

 

Well, you're either quite dense or you have a reading comprehension problem. i'm not comparing the two activities, i'm comparing the overall economics of activities where "racing" occurs.....

 

 

Is english a second language for you?

 

 

and just what is it about

Replying to SNG writes to GGYC regarding the ongoing litigation

that makes you think it's a thread about comparing the overall economics of activities where "racing" occurs.....

 

reading comprehension indeed..

 

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

 

Don't you think it's wise to finish off the legal issues rather than leave them hanging? Do you really want a bad Trustee and rule breaker like EB/SNG/Alinghi sailing? I cetainly to do NOT want them in the sport and I'm from Lotusland.

 

 

Both rc and le said after the race that they wanted alinghi in the next cup...

 

Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing the Alinghi team show up if EB and his brain trust finally took their beat down like men and repented. Chances of that happening are infinitely NIL.

 

Looking at EB and his posse's past performance do you really think they are going to show after this last beat down on the water and in the courts? Now they have another one on the horizon this coming week. They are going to get hammered on the CIC and BOFD plus costs. Wasn't the recent SNG letter a plea from someone in a desperate position?

 

Many here would love to see the Alinghi team there minus it's owner and his poodles but sadly the only likelihood of that happening is the team showing up as new members of other AC teams.

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Club Integrity is at play. With the Actions of the SNG Race Committee during Race Two of AC-33, I wonder how many Quality Race Events will be held at SNG in the future. I wonder how many Regional, National and World Event they will host. Thou there may be Deep Pockets $$$$$ to pay bills, I would beleive this sort of embarrassment has created some turmoil in the Club. EB has gone into hiding, FM can't Shut-up and the Pending Litigation is a NO WIN no matter how it turns out for SNG. A Clubs Integrity and The Running of High Quality and Prestigious Racing Events is important to a Clubs Identity. ISAF must act and be firm with the HAND of Justice! The Pending Issues in the New York Court System must be addressed. I would rather this 33rd Bloodshed be dealt with now with A Clear Decision. When it ends let it never come back into the event. Dole out the Punishment and Fines. May this be a painful lesson of how not to do things! Where ever you are, where ever you race, lets get back out to the Cans and enjoy what we love best!

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Both rc and le said after the race that they wanted alinghi in the next cup...

I remember RC saying it (LE may have too) and believe they meant it.

 

Alinghi is good for the sport in a lot of areas, it's just the control-freakism that rubbed people the wrong way. Being just one of the Challengers, they could hopefully focus on what they are best at. If this thing does head into multihulls I don't think EB will be able to resist it almost no matter the format details. That can only mean better competition.

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

 

fred meyer has a sockpuppet :lol:

 

+1

 

Have you noticed the nice green "+" button on the lower right corner of the posts? It's the new way to say "+1".

 

A reply saying just "+1" is soooooo passé, much like Fred!

 

Time to step into a better future, without both of them...

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Here's the pertinent language from the Deed of Gift:

 

"THAT the said party of the first part, for and in consideration of the premises and of the performance of the conditions and agreements hereinafter set forth by the party of the second part, has granted, bargained, sold, assigned, transferred and set over, and by these presents does grant, bargain, sell, assign, transfer and set over unto the said party of the second part, its successors and assigns, the Cup won by the schooner yacht America at Cowes, England, upon the twenty-second day of August, 1851. To Have and To Hold the same to the said party of the second part, its successors and assigns, IN TRUST NEVERTHELESS, for the following uses and purposes: -

 

This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries."

 

I have highlighted the language that binds all participants to the original conveyance. I am baffled that Meyer believes he has the authority to introduce a condition to the conveyance Schuyler sought to repeat, in perpetuity. Meyer would delay a transfer of right, pending GGYC ceasing any litigation against SNG. Of course he cannot say he will not convey the Cup; that would contradict the Deed in a manner that is too stark to go unnoticed. But his attempt at delay has the same outcome: GGYC is required to continue with part of what is theirs, as the current successor. Here SNG repeats a mistake that has dogged their every effort to understand what is expected of them as a participant in the America's Cup trust. Somehow Meyer and others who have spoken and acted on SNG's behalf are convinced the obligations imposed upon them through the Deed are open to unilateral amendment or qualification. They cannot accept that their conduct as a Trustee is prescribed.

 

Meyer would write the rules as he goes along. The step that has Meyer rewrite the conveyance so as to oblige its administrator to take into account pending litigation undermines the timeless quality of the competition Schuyler sought to assure through the laws governing administration of a Trust. As Schuyler has it, all obligations imposed on the Defender convey at the completion of the competition. A partial or qualified conveyance leaves the competition unresolved and in this way interrupts what Schuyler wanted to be a successive process.

 

I haven't supported GGYC's challenge to SNG on the grounds that SNG's conduct undermines the possibility of a competition Schuyler saw continuing in the decades following his death. Meyer's letters lead me to take his as a cultivated misuderstanding, exactly the sort that is appropriately challenged as a violation of the laws governing a Trust.

 

 

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"I hope, for the good of the sport, that GGYC is prepared to do the same." - Fred 'asshole' Meyer

 

Fred Meyer would like everyone to know that in his estimation with regard to what is, and is not, 'good for the sport' - that BMWO should quit the court action. Can you believe it? This guy who was one of those attempting a mutiny about the committee boat would like to speak now aboard what is good for the sport? WTF? Fucking arrogant Swiss. What would be good for the sport is if Larry finishes the job by telling his law firm: "here is a pile of money, please go give those SNG guys hell. When it is all over, you can have 50% of what you recover".

 

What would be good for the sport is if EB and FM would be excluded for life. These guys are thieves and cheaters. It is in their genes. No medicine is strong enough to cure them of this - they are irretrievably corrupt to the core.

 

FM's letter offers nothing legitimate in return for stopping legal action. They only have left, that they will not attempt a bullshit suit about a questionalbe Race 2 start. I swear I am going to smack this guy next time I see him. I am going to smack him so fucking hard his whole family will get a headache.

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Here's the pertinent language from the Deed of Gift:

 

And here's what FM wrote, hilites mine:

 

I write to request, once again, that GGYC agree to end all litigation concerning the 33rd America’s Cup and all prior Cups. We previously made that request to you by letter dated February 18, 2010, in which we asked GGYC to covenant “that all litigation shall now end,” and affirmed our intention to “cease litigation against GGYC and to assign, transfer and deliver the Cup, and all related rights, to GGYC as soon as possible.”

 

I am quite certain that I read somewhere that there was a signing of the Trust documentation before the prize giving ceremony and Cup presentation on Sunday night. But I can't find it anywhere, does anyone else remember seeing it?

 

If that did not happen, then why not? And if it did, then by what justification can (presumably LM speaking thru) FM refuse "to assign, transfer and deliver the Cup, and all related rights, to GGYC" ?

 

Also, someone asked already but I've seen no guesses: Wtf is it about "and all prior Cups"?

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Also, someone asked already but I've seen no guesses: Wtf is it about "and all prior Cups"?

Remember, the breach of fiduciary duty suit covers SNG's actions from 2003 onwards.

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Wtf is it about "and all prior Cups"?
Remember Marian's various suggestions that the Deed had been improperly amended by Schuyler?

There have been various hints at the same topic in SNG/Alinghi statements.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if their final, outrageous spiteful hurrah will be an in-court outright attack on the validity of the DoG hoping to have it stripped from GGYC (take that Larry & RC!) & returned to NYYC under the original Deed with all post-amendment races nullified.

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race is over and done with

you filthy americans just love going to court i presume

end the bs, it has tainted the sport enough.

 

I feel your pain

I can hear it in your voice

Your disappointment must be excruciating

:lol:

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Wtf is it about "and all prior Cups"?
Remember Marian's various suggestions that the Deed had been improperly amended by Schuyler?

There have been various hints at the same topic in SNG/Alinghi statements.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if their final, outrageous spiteful hurrah will be an in-court outright attack on the validity of the DoG hoping to have it stripped from GGYC (take that Larry & RC!) & returned to NYYC under the original Deed with all post-amendment races nullified.

Yep, I was wondering about that same dark subject.

 

What pjh suggests is much easier to point to, am not sure the LM crowd have ever put that alleged 'improperness' in writing before the court.

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Both rc and le said after the race that they wanted alinghi in the next cup...

 

I heard RC stating that, I have not heard LE saying the same. Not that he did not, do you recall when LE said that in public?

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Wtf is it about "and all prior Cups"?
Remember Marian's various suggestions that the Deed had been improperly amended by Schuyler?

There have been various hints at the same topic in SNG/Alinghi statements.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if their final, outrageous spiteful hurrah will be an in-court outright attack on the validity of the DoG hoping to have it stripped from GGYC (take that Larry & RC!) & returned to NYYC under the original Deed with all post-amendment races nullified.

Yep, I was wondering about that same dark subject.

 

What pjh suggests is much easier to point to, am not sure the LM crowd have ever put that alleged 'improperness' in writing before the court.

 

While a legal move in that direction could mess up things for a period, SNG's behavior of holding the races, not protesting, and not attempting to physically holding on to the Cup and not bringing this up earlier would make it a hard sell. Also puts them forever out due to their location probably too. Is this the explosive vest option?

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Remember, the breach of fiduciary duty suit covers SNG's actions from 2003 onwards.
Hmm, so 'all prior cups' = AC32 & AC33 in that context. Certainly the less sensationalist interpretation anyway.

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Both rc and le said after the race that they wanted alinghi in the next cup...

 

I heard RC stating that, I have not heard LE saying the same. Not that he did not, do you recall when LE said that in public?

Actually ro! is correct, they do both say it in the last AC33-organized presser, here

http://www.livestream.com/bmworacleracing/video?clipId=pla_2f405787-9aca-4cb8-a940-6f13c87cb797

 

At about 31 minutes RC says, in complimenting Alinghi, that he hopes they will compete for the 34th.

 

At about 41 RC takes a question from Genny T on how Alinghi had just said they will base their decision in part on the boats to be raced and they'd said going back to V5's would be a big step back; and so what is the boat-type thinking? And RC responds he 'absolutely' wants them back competing.

 

At about 43 LE answers a question about i-forget-what (something about restoring the Cup to prominence?) and he talks optimistically about AC 33 viewership numbers, web hits, the reasons people have tuned in (wild technology, etc) and then talks about the need to grow it so that sponsorship will grow for "all teams that want to compete" then lists several teams by name, and he ~starts~ that list with Alinghi.

 

 

Granted this was a bit of a giddy event, and they had followed Alinghi onto the stage, shaking hands and even quick hugs or at least back-taps, and so in the close context everyone was happy. But still, they were both quite forward-leaning on the subject, even unprompted by any direct question on it.

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ISAF must act and be firm with the HAND of Justice!

With Jerome Pels now in charge at ISAF, I would not hold my breath waiting for that firm hand. He only uses that firm hand when assisting the Star class to retain its Olympic position over the Tornado. Having watched many of the things that ISAF have done over the past 10-15 years, I do not think that you will find justice here.

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