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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

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NacramanUK

Nacra F20 Carbon

957 posts in this topic

Nacra F20 Carbon takes line honours ....Nacra take 3 out of the first 4 places on handicap....

http://www.roundtexe....asp?navid=live (check under corrected results....)

 

This start to look like a historic break in the sailing world - when did a new boat owned like this thing ?

 

Great point. Would make for nice discussion.

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What happened with those results, I saw that Pols had won by 25 seconds [On handicap], now he is second?

 

Nacra F20 Carbon takes line honours ....Nacra take 3 out of the first 4 places on handicap....

http://www.roundtexe....asp?navid=live (check under corrected results....)

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I think there was a mistake in the software or something.

They should have doublechecked before telling Pols though.

The N20c is impressive out of the box, no need to have raking boards etc. ;)

 

Good decision from the organizers to let the race be held on sunday, which turned out to be in perfect conditions as well. (10-14kts and sun!).

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Is there a tuning guide out for the F20C yet?

 

What is the latest advice on mast rake, diamond tension, rig tension, mast rotation and board height in different levels of breeze etc.

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Tuning guide is on www.nacrasailing.com

 

Here's a link - http://www.nacrasail...nuals&Itemid=91

 

-M

Thanks Krash, are you finding this is working out well for you? I think the board situation is never ending and everyone will have their preferences I guess depending on where you sail etc.

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We're using the tuning guide as a base and making adjustments on the water depending on the conditions. Regarding the board positions, we carry as much board as we can without loosing control of the boat. Flat water - we can carry more board, In big waves, we have to reduce board because the angle of attack is constantly changing. We've actually done wheelies surfing down the back side of big waves offshore.

 

-Mike

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Tuning guide is on www.nacrasailing.com

 

Here's a link - http://www.nacrasail...nuals&Itemid=91

 

-M

Thanks Krash, are you finding this is working out well for you? I think the board situation is never ending and everyone will have their preferences I guess depending on where you sail etc.

 

Rumour has it your new F20 is almost here Readie, make sure you get some pictures up once you've got it together.

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Remember those 2 Oracle F20Cs that Jeremy was selling? Well, here they are, being assembled in Sdot Yam, Israel.

We now have a fleet of 4 F20Cs, plus a Ventilo 20 Carbon, based in Sdot Yam, that will be vying for line honors in our upcoming distance race to Achziv next month.

F20Cs have basically replaced the N20 (which replaced the N6.0) for the larger active crews here.

 

 

post-42941-098860700 1339838463_thumb.jpg

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wow, quite the shipment

 

4's a nice number for racing

 

is that J in the surf city T?

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Next time I am over there I will come visit, knowing exactly where you guys are. Have fun!

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That's Ronny, one of the proud new owners. I believe J is busy in Texas...

Geff, you are more than welcome to come sail with us year round, as are any cat sailors visiting Israel

post-42941-059104000 1339860977_thumb.jpg

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That's Ronny, one of the proud new owners. I believe J is busy in Texas...

 

he didn't look big or hairy enoughtongue.gif

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I'm truly impressed by the boat.

 

I sailed out today in light air. The lake was flat. We were doing less than 6 knots for about half an hour when the wind picked up all of a sudden.

 

I assumed hiking position about 1 foot aft of the shroud. The crew went on the trapeze wire behind me (that's what we always do now). Both foils were all the way down.

 

We crossed the lake twice sailing to windward at 14-16.4 knots.

 

We had a great Father's Day!

 

PS: I did a 45 degrees wheely in a bad gust and the wind picked up the underside of the trampoline. Felt like we were airborne for a while until the boat came down and crashed dead in the water.

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Tuning guide is on www.nacrasailing.com

 

Here's a link - http://www.nacrasail...nuals&Itemid=91

 

-M

Thanks Krash, are you finding this is working out well for you? I think the board situation is never ending and everyone will have their preferences I guess depending on where you sail etc.

 

Rumour has it your new F20 is almost here Readie, make sure you get some pictures up once you've got it together.

 

Yeah should be here in the next week or two...!! Can't wait to get her out on the water!!

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tuning her for strong wind

 

When sailing her according to the NACRA tuning guide i have experienced several times spin-outs which resultated in a sudden drift towards leeward.

With the following setup i have made good experience to sail her fast which i would like to share here.

Reaching: When sailing in windforce >5 i found it's more efficient to have leeward board app. 1ft up and windward board fully up. Mastrotation nearly fully open so mast shows good flex/bend characteristics and is self-responding on gusts. Keep jib cleated to the middle position and traveller full released. Mainsail at all times full sheeted but traveller 0.5ft out. Work with traveller instead of mainsheet to depower. Position of crew around shroud/trunk to weight-balance her especially when she becomes airborne. In general she sails (with this setup) leeward higher out of the water which reduces spray and drag.

 

let me know your thoughts

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Nacra F20 Carbon - Class Racing

Hi All,

Just wondering what plans people have in Europe for some F20C class racing in 2013? It would be good to get as many boats together as possible at something like Texel Week. 3 days of windward/leewards followed by the long distance race on the Saturday!

Would be good to get the ball rolling now to try and get as many boats there as possible and enjoy some good class racing.

Cheers,

James

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James, i like the idea and would like to add that we already had the three german boats all together at lake como in northern italy together with a bunch of tornados for early season training. We will have this in 2013 as well. I would greatly appreciate if someone would like to join us. To get more boats together we are flexible on schedule and location. Any proposal is appreciated.

have fun sailing her fast

Ludger

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James, i like the idea and would like to add that we already had the three german boats all together at lake como in northern italy together with a bunch of tornados for early season training. We will have this in 2013 as well. I would greatly appreciate if someone would like to join us. To get more boats together we are flexible on schedule and location. Any proposal is appreciated.

have fun sailing her fast

Ludger

Ludger

Sounds amazing, these boats so deserve some good class racing now there is enough of us. There is no reason why we cannot get 15/20 boats at Texel. I hope Nacra will put some marketing into this and help us out with organisation, it is the 'flagship' model after all. We could do three events to constitute a mini circuit e.g. Eurocat - Carnac, France / Texel Week - Texel, Netherlands / one other location in Northern Europe like Erquy or St Lunaire.

What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else?

James

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I experienced stripped threads in the hull beam connections twice this year. At the beginning of the season I had to repair the thread for the outer port front beam bolt. Last weekend I had to repair the thread for the inner starboard rear beam bolt.

 

Once can be bad luck. Is twice a trend? Anybody else has had this problem?

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Krash had a bolt strip in his front beam at the GT300 last year - Ended up getting fixed with a helicoil insert.

 

I had a front beam bolt strip shortly after. I drilled and tapped it out to 7/16", and used a stud and nut insted of a bolt.

 

I think it is fair to say that it is a design weakness...

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We do indeed have 2 boats with this problem on the front beam. We solved ours (hopefully) by inserting hellicoils. Another boat was not as lucky, and after consulting Nacra received larger inserts from Nacra, and are currently fitting them out. We took advantage of the situation to seat our beams with epoxy, and are quite happy with the results. Now we only have to hope that the hellicoils hold...

We also had problems with severe cracks on the front beam, near the hull. One boat almost sheared through the beam before discovering it while inserting the beach wheels. We subsequently checked ours and found smaller cracks. Nacra sent us new beams with reinforced inserts near the dolphin striker connections.

Add to that having rudder grudge owns shear off while sailing, and rudder screws bending (so steering becomes harder as the rudder locks higher)...

Bottom line - huge stresses on these boats, and where they used existing 18/20 hardware as is, expect problems... I strongly recommend checking the beams, rudder gudgeons, rudder screws, main block connections etc. periodically

Absolutely fantastic boat to sail, which we do twice a week almost every week, but still quite a few teething problems that are causing us quite a bit of down time

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We do indeed have 2 boats with this problem on the front beam. We solved ours (hopefully) by inserting hellicoils. Another boat was not as lucky, and after consulting Nacra received larger inserts from Nacra, and are currently fitting them out. We took advantage of the situation to seat our beams with epoxy, and are quite happy with the results. Now we only have to hope that the hellicoils hold...

We also had problems with severe cracks on the front beam, near the hull. One boat almost sheared through the beam before discovering it while inserting the beach wheels. We subsequently checked ours and found smaller cracks. Nacra sent us new beams with reinforced inserts near the dolphin striker connections.

Add to that having rudder grudge owns shear off while sailing, and rudder screws bending (so steering becomes harder as the rudder locks higher)...

Bottom line - huge stresses on these boats, and where they used existing 18/20 hardware as is, expect problems... I strongly recommend checking the beams, rudder gudgeons, rudder screws, main block connections etc. periodically

Absolutely fantastic boat to sail, which we do twice a week almost every week, but still quite a few teething problems that are causing us quite a bit of down time

 

Rudder bolts and springs were always an issue on the N-20s also. May be a spot that's worth a Titanium bolt. The bolts used to bend almost immediately upon replacement.

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Hi Everybody,

 

As today Nacra F20 Carbon is fairly priced compare to F18 and A Cat, I guess it should be an alternative to be considered for anybody who wish to sail a modern boat, but one question remains:

 

How much is this boat physically demanding, compared to an F18 and a Tornado ?

 

I know already that a Tornado is very demanding, at least too much for me.

 

I have little illusion, the F20C is as wide as a T and has similar sail area, so should be little difference with a T, but I d like to have the feedback of experts.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Cheers All

 

W

 

 

 

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W,

 

I'm curious where this "fairly priced" F20C is located, or what dealer can offer such pricing? I don't really think the boat is excessively priced for what it is, but I don't think it is competitive with F18 pricing, everything I've seen says F20C is 50% more than an F18.

 

-Sam

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In Europe the F20C is around 25000€ a DNA is around 24000€ and a C2 is around 21000€ VAT included,

 

at least afew months ago, I did not check recently

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New F20C is closer to $35K USD stateside, F18's are typically $10K-$12K less than that. That's a large leap for most and tough to convince those that sail in fleets to make the switch.

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I never sailed a Tornado, but the F20C definately requires more strength than our previous Nacra 20, and of course F18s. The spi is harder to raise and way harder to sheet, in fact almost impossible to play freely in strong winds. Getting the mainsheet tight is not a casual one arm pull. The width and sensitivity to weight placement means that you are moving about quite a lot. The pace things happen is that much faster, so you have to react quickly...

But OH, what a great ride !! The thing that hurts most after a long day out are the facial muscles from the huge grin as you race down the back of big waves with the windward hull 3 stories high and drive the leeward bow straight through the next wave without faltering... Not to mention the looks from the F18 driver as you pass him and outpoint him... Our 4 boat F20C fleet usually starts our informal distance sails after all the other boats are long gone, just for the pleasure of blasting through the entire fleet...

And on a more serious note, in addition to the greater physical demands, the F20C speeds require higher concentration, relaxing in medium to high winds can be hazardous to your health.

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i bought a new one this year in germany. actual price is 31.500 € including race package. discount is around 5% here. that's not a bargain boat but alot of fun to fly her.

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Thanks,

 

So it is probably as physical as for a T.

 

For the price it was at Saint Malo but a Belgium dealer I think, probably the basic one without racing package, or maybe a special discount?

 

Anyway it is clear that is a bit too much for me; Too bad

 

Cheers

 

W

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A Tornado has 12:1 on the mainsail. We have a bigger main and only 10:1 on the sheet. Relative to a T, the main sheet will be more work. I don't complain. The sheet uncleats easily when the gusts come in. The boat is stable enough that I can pull it in with two arms when the time comes.

 

The jenniker has 3 extra square meters. It makes a big difference.The folks who crew with me all wear gloves and complain after long downwind legs that their arms are dead.

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I take it the blocks are the same Harken auto-ratchets as on the standard N20 or F18? An extra 3 m^2 over the size of the N20 kite isn't going to help the crew out of the purchase system is the same. Guess that's why they invented the gym...

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CloudSSpin said "The jenniker has 3 extra square meters. It makes a big difference.The folks who crew with me all wear gloves and complain after long downwind legs that their arms are dead".

 

 

The addition of a ratchet block with a becket and single block at the spin clew would half the load on high wind days. I have done this on my F18 to help out my sister, we only rig it this way if its blowing.

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Thanks,

 

Just Sail, as far as I understand, you set up a 2:1 puley system ?

If yes: the spinnaker line has to be much longer ? is it easy to manage, does it not create "spagettis" on the tramp, always in your feet when you tack or gybe ?

 

I know that if you put 2 ratchet blocks in "serie", you divide the holding force required to maintain the spinnaker leech, but to sheet in you need the same force.

 

So combining both could be a solution for long distance race to save crew arms ?

 

Regards

 

W

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Yea I never really analyzed it, I got the idea from looking at a rigging page on a T web site. I had the parts around because I had a pair of blocks w beckets from my old dead tornado jib sheet system and tried it out it seems to work well so I bought new autorachets with beckets. The sheets are 12 ft longer than supplied and it cleans up well when the kite is in the sock. There is a bit more line around during the take down but it has not been an issue.

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How's the release? That's what we mostly found troublesome when running 2:1, if you had to release in a hurry it wasn't quite as fast as running 1:1, lead to at least 1 capsize for us.

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Thanks, Just Sail,

 

Thjat is it, the link you post show exactly, what I had in mind, a 2:1 ratio + 2 autoratchets in serie.

 

Sam99us: Of course, if you have to release in hurry, it might be tricky, but may be you could try a 49er spinnaker holding approach:

 

According to some 49er crew, if you are in difficulties with the kite, the best solution to avoid capsize is not to release the spinnaker, instead the crew should pull the spinnaker line strongly to trigger stall.

 

After a thorough brain storming in my little brain, I realized that this solution could make sense:

 

Usually the troubles with the kite up, start with a viscious wave which slows down the boat, the apparent wind turns backward, so if the crew releases the kite line accordingly, it will maintain the air flow "laminar" around the sail, and the sail power will remain constant, instead, if you pull the line when the apparent wind is turning backward, you will trigger the kite to stall and decrease significantly the pressure on the leeward bow.

 

I should say I never try it myself, as I am more A-Cat oriented. But I know F18 crew who manage the kite like that, and they do not capsize very often in the breeze.

 

Cheers

 

W

 

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I have not had a capsize as a result of not being able to release YET. So far it has not been a problem at all. As for stalling the spinnaker by pull it tighter I have not thought of that but it does seem counter intuative to me. Perhaps it is somthing to try next year in warmer water.

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Thanks, Just Sail,

 

Thjat is it, the link you post show exactly, what I had in mind, a 2:1 ratio + 2 autoratchets in serie.

 

Sam99us: Of course, if you have to release in hurry, it might be tricky, but may be you could try a 49er spinnaker holding approach:

 

According to some 49er crew, if you are in difficulties with the kite, the best solution to avoid capsize is not to release the spinnaker, instead the crew should pull the spinnaker line strongly to trigger stall.

 

After a thorough brain storming in my little brain, I realized that this solution could make sense:

 

Usually the troubles with the kite up, start with a viscious wave which slows down the boat, the apparent wind turns backward, so if the crew releases the kite line accordingly, it will maintain the air flow "laminar" around the sail, and the sail power will remain constant, instead, if you pull the line when the apparent wind is turning backward, you will trigger the kite to stall and decrease significantly the pressure on the leeward bow.

 

I should say I never try it myself, as I am more A-Cat oriented. But I know F18 crew who manage the kite like that, and they do not capsize very often in the breeze.

 

Cheers

 

W

 

With an F20C you should be going hot and very fast, even in a strong breeze. At that point, your spi will be in very tight and you have no chance of yanking it in tighter quickly (remember, we started this discussion with how hard it was to sheet). If you drive her correctly in this state, you will be pretty high and drive straight through even big waves on one hull barely slowing. Pretty scary, but works.

If you run too deep, with the spi loose accordingly and both hulls in the water, you WILL slam into the big waves , stop and bury the bows, in which case maybe you can tighten the sheet, but I doubt it will work in time. The couple of times we were too scared to run hot in big seas we preferred to take down the spi, sit way way back, run deep and pray...

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How soom before we can order our t ruders and L curved foils, whose is going to make them and how many more banks will I need to rob to get them

 

Can anyone help me to get the required paperwork to register my boat from Nacra. Mike Krantz sold me his N 20 but he will not get me the final paperwork so that I can register it in my state. Does anyone know who I can contact to complain. Its been 4 months and he just has excuse after excuse will never do business with him again.

 

 

mydaddycat

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First it was 3 months, now it's 4 months??? You bought the boat on 8/1 - that's only 2 months in my calendar.

 

You called me on 9/6, and I told you that I was out of the office and travelling until 9/23. You emailed me on 9/25 and I responded to you on 9/26 that the MSO had been requested from the factory.

 

I received and mailed your MSO on 10/1.

 

You want to complain, man up and call me, instead of making an ass of yourself on the internet.

 

-Mike

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First it was 3 months, now it's 4 months??? You bought the boat on 8/1 - that's only 2 months in my calendar.

 

You called me on 9/6, and I told you that I was out of the office and travelling until 9/23. You emailed me on 9/25 and I responded to you on 9/26 that the MSO had been requested from the factory.

 

I received and mailed your MSO on 10/1.

 

You want to complain, man up and call me, instead of making an ass of yourself on the internet.

 

-Mike

 

Mydaddycat seems to have an alternative take on reality many times from what little I have read or his exploits and opinions.

 

I was wondering, has he been given the traditional SA welcome?

 

B

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First it was 3 months, now it's 4 months??? You bought the boat on 8/1 - that's only 2 months in my calendar.

 

You called me on 9/6, and I told you that I was out of the office and travelling until 9/23. You emailed me on 9/25 and I responded to you on 9/26 that the MSO had been requested from the factory.

 

I received and mailed your MSO on 10/1.

 

You want to complain, man up and call me, instead of making an ass of yourself on the internet.

 

-Mike

 

Mydaddycat seems to have an alternative take on reality many times from what little I have read or his exploits and opinions.

 

I was wondering, has he been given the traditional SA welcome?

 

B

 

Not yet, but I'm thinking leave out the tits part and leave in the "FUCK OFF" with a permanently added.

Mike Krantz does more for cat sailing promotion in the U.S. than anyone.

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Promoting and service are two different issues. I want to thank the Nacra dealer who gave me Jacks name and number and who was genuinely concerned about the lack of service I was getting. And then I want to thank Jack who after I emailed and explained the situation, the paperwork showed up. Coincidence I'm sure but all is well now and the boat is in the process of getting registered in the state of Texas. I would not venture into this forum if I did not expect a little critisism and I do not expect the critical parties to get both sides of the story because that often demonstrates intelligence and intelligence is highly overated.

 

Viva la Vida

 

Taco al Carbon

 

Mydaddycat

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i wonder if the problem is that people don't understand

 

mydaddycat's rather unique way of communicating....

 

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Hi All,

 

Are there any plans for some Nacra F20 Carbon class racing in Europe next season?

 

Would be good to organise at least one 'one design' regatta, maybe Texel sailing week, 3 days of windward leeward and then the long distance on the Saturday? Amazing fun if we could get 10 - 15 boats.

 

Thoughts?

 

James

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Yesterday I was checking the torque of my beam bolts with an electronic torque measuring device when I stripped a third bolt.

 

I am really concerned now that there is an underlaying design issue to this problem.

 

Anyone wish to share similar experiences?

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Yesterday I was checking the torque of my beam bolts with an electronic torque measuring device when I stripped a third bolt.

 

I am really concerned now that there is an underlaying design issue to this problem.

 

Anyone wish to share similar experiences?

As discussed in September, we had 3 boats with this problem. Since redoing with hellicoils and seating the beams with epoxy we have had no more beam problems.

 

On a happier note, a new F20C arrived at our club this week, making for a fleet of 5!! Will be seeing them all together regularly on the weekends, hope to post photos soon.

The new boat has improved rudder castings, so it looks like they finally realized they have a problem. We broke another one during a spectacular wheely jib reaching in big seas (-: . We have a bungee loop connecting running through the top casting and round the gudgeon, that keeps the tiller from flipping over when we capsize, and the rudder from tearing loose when a casting breaks.

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Any news to make her full foiling ?

Month ago some a couple of people (france, netherland and SF-area) were experiencing with different type of foils. Never heard of it til today. Is there a serious and durable upgrade available?

Any news would be greatly appreciated. :)

 

greetings from southern germany

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