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want2be

Lowrider Moth - fast, fun and fogiving (NOT??!!) to sail??

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I am thinking of buying one. A friend know someone with lowrider (may be around 16 years old) for sale.

 

I did some internet research today and not much go on. I read that they are very difficult but fast and fun to sail. These 'old lowriders' are still up to speed with MPS or RS600/700? I have good dinghy sailing skills and about 145lbs.

 

Please let me know what you guys think? Thanks.

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I am thinking of buying one. A friend know someone with lowrider (may be around 16 years old) for sale.

 

I did some internet research today and not much go on. I read that they are very difficult but fast and fun to sail. These 'old lowriders' are still up to speed with MPS or RS600/700? I have good dinghy sailing skills and about 145lbs.

 

Please let me know what you guys think? Thanks.

 

Forgiving NOT fogiving!!!! Sorry!!

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They are bloody good fun, if you can sail one you can sail anything...

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aussie yardstick is about 102 which is faster than a Contender.Look for a U.K. portsmouth number to verify

 

Hard to sail ! but a good challenge for the determined, not a 'part time' prospect

 

Scow is easy but a fair bit slower (115-18)

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aussie yardstick is about 102 which is faster than a Contender.Look for a U.K. portsmouth number to verify

 

Hard to sail ! but a good challenge for the determined, not a 'part time' prospect

 

Scow is easy but a fair bit slower (115-18)

 

 

Thanks very much! My friend race a contender and it's a good benchmark in term of performance. Will be tough I know....

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aussie yardstick is about 102 which is faster than a Contender.Look for a U.K. portsmouth number to verify

 

Hard to sail ! but a good challenge for the determined, not a 'part time' prospect

 

Scow is easy but a fair bit slower (115-18)

 

The AUS yardstick never caught up with the fastest lowriders. The likes of Mark Thorpe and Chris Dey were sailing as fast as VYC 95. I watched Mark match race one of our best B14s all weekend one winter regatta, just before he went to France in 2004 for his third WC win. A few years earlier, in a good breeze and surfing swell he started 5 minutes behind a fleet of FDs including their WC, and almost caught the leaders by the finish.

 

The last generation of low riding moths were equally as remarkable in performance as the modern foilers. The class has a long history of thinking outside the square. Thats why it has always been a few steps ahead of the one designs.

 

Learning to sail them was not easy and it will be harder now as there is no-one practicing the art who can teach you. Lots of unique techniques especially downwind in a blow, but well worth the effort and certainly a bonus in handling any other boat better. Very rewarding when you get it mostly right.

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I've tried one a few times, first time there was not enough breeze (<10kts) which meant I was trying to balance the thing most of the time. Another attempt in around 15kts of breeze found it much easier, could sit on the wing and play the sheet. I struggled downwind though, anything less than a tight reach and I was tipping over, think a bit less vang would of helped here. Good fun though when you get going, but you never get to rest, it's physical all the time. A few tricks like buoyancy in the wings and a shock cord on the tiller to self centre makes starting off a bit easier.

 

There used to be a guide somewhere giving a rough timeline of learning the moth, I think it suggested 3 months before you finish a race, 6 months to finish a race without a capsize...

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The thing with lowrider Moths is that, in general, the newer they are the easier they are to sail. This is because they boats got lighter, as they went from alloy tubes to carbon tubes for wings, mast and boom. Even the lightest alloy mast has a lot more inertia than a lighter carbon mast and this plays a big part. I would also say that the later boats are, generally a lot stronger than the earlier ones.

 

As for speed, what Phil says, plus more! Even earlier boats were impressively fast. In my Magnum 5 (around 1982 I think!) I was able to beat top 470's around a course when I was sailing well (which wasn't often enough!). In the UK, the Moth handicap has never been a tue reflection of the speed of the boat because it is made up of the returns from club racing and therefore reflects the average sailor. There is a huge gap between the average and best Moth sailors, bigger than in any other class I have ever sailed. However, even an average sailor can go really fast in one - it's normally turning corners or out of control downwind rides that messes things up.

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Thanks for your replies!! What makes/models are the 'late' lowrider moths? Around 5-6 years old?

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Thanks for your replies!! What makes/models are the 'late' lowrider moths? Around 5-6 years old?

I don't know what will be available round your way but the dominant design was the Hungry Tiger.

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Thanks for your replies!! What makes/models are the 'late' lowrider moths? Around 5-6 years old?

I don't know what will be available round your way but the dominant design was the Hungry Tiger.

 

 

Thanks for that. I may hold off buying this older model and look for later version....IF I can find one.

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Thanks for your replies!! What makes/models are the 'late' lowrider moths? Around 5-6 years old?

I don't know what will be available round your way but the dominant design was the Hungry Tiger.

 

 

Thanks for that. I may hold off buying this older model and look for later version....IF I can find one.

You won't regret it. A Moth with carbon wings and spars is so much better to sail, and, IMO, they tend to be a lot stronger.

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save your money... buy a foiler so you have someone to race with (not to mention a much cooler boat)

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You will find it easier to find a used foiler.

In the 4 or 5 years when Hungry Tigers won all the WCs there were only about 30 built. They were all carbon, very light and very strong but at least half of these have been converted to foilers anyway. Compared with the 300 + foilers built by Bladerider and Mach2 alone its easy to see why finding a good lowrider now is not an easy proposition.

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You will find it easier to find a used foiler.

 

 

Yes, but a good low-rider will be about $2,000 whereas a reasonable foiler will be about $10,000.

 

Most people I know who bought a low-rider in the last few years did so because they either wanted the experience before trying a more expensive foiler, or to convert to a foiler.

 

I think the only reasons to get a HT specifically are either to convert it or be the fasted low-rider around. Not much point in the latter as there are very few still racing. In general, any decent low-rider with a carbon rig will suit if the main reason for purchase is to get experience, there seem to be quiet a few people looking for them at the moment. I don't think carbon wings have many advantages over alloy in terms of weight, though a carbon mast is a must.

 

Yes, they are bloody hard to sail downwind in anything over 12kn or so, but doing it successfully is a blast. And always heal to windward in anything over 5kn, work the mainsheet and tiller constantly to stay on the edge of control.

 

If you finish a race without capsizing either you're world champion material or you weren't trying hard enough. biggrin.gif

 

--

Rob

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You will find it easier to find a used foiler.

 

 

Yes, but a good low-rider will be about $2,000 whereas a reasonable foiler will be about $10,000.

 

Most people I know who bought a low-rider in the last few years did so because they either wanted the experience before trying a more expensive foiler, or to convert to a foiler.

 

I think the only reasons to get a HT specifically are either to convert it or be the fasted low-rider around. Not much point in the latter as there are very few still racing. In general, any decent low-rider with a carbon rig will suit if the main reason for purchase is to get experience, there seem to be quiet a few people looking for them at the moment. I don't think carbon wings have many advantages over alloy in terms of weight, though a carbon mast is a must.

 

Yes, they are bloody hard to sail downwind in anything over 12kn or so, but doing it successfully is a blast. And always heal to windward in anything over 5kn, work the mainsheet and tiller constantly to stay on the edge of control.

 

If you finish a race without capsizing either you're world champion material or you weren't trying hard enough. biggrin.gif

 

--

Rob

 

Thanks Rob!

 

Yes my problem is $$$$ and there is a good chance that I will be moving around for potential work, which was why I was thinking of buying a lowrider for easy of shipping/car roof top etc. For my budget a lowrider ticks lots of boxes. I am sure the alu rigs are single section but are the carbon rigs are multi sections? Like on a 29er?

 

Thanks guys.

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Yes my problem is $ and there is a good chance that I will be moving around for potential work, which was why I was thinking of buying a lowrider for easy of shipping/car roof top etc. For my budget a lowrider ticks lots of boxes. I am sure the alu rigs are single section but are the carbon rigs are multi sections? Like on a 29er?

 

 

The two are about the same for transporting, the only difference is that hydrofoils are bulkier than low-rider c/b and rudder (and foilers weigh less, but that's not really an issue).

 

I think all modern Moths have a two piece mast, probably because it's much easier to ship , older ones were often one piece. You can convert one piece to two, there are others who can give good advice how to do that if you need to. My previous Moth was an Axeman II, heavier and slower than a Hungry Tiger but still lots of fun and great to learn in, and faster than nearly any other skiff in the right hands. If you can get one for around $2,000 and look after it, you'll get about that when you sell it.

 

For transport, look for a trailer. Car topping is not recommended and may be illegal due to the width - Moths are about 2.2m wide and may be too wide for your vehicle (in most Australian states the load can only exceed the vehicle width by about 150mm on each side), I use a 7'x5' box trailer purely for the width, the extra width of the wheels and mudguards make it just legal, a 6'x4' is too narrow.

 

I am about the make a trailer with a friend who is good at that sort of thing as I want something lighter to tow. Total cost is only a few hundred dollars.

 

 

 

--

Rob

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Yes my problem is $ and there is a good chance that I will be moving around for potential work, which was why I was thinking of buying a lowrider for easy of shipping/car roof top etc. For my budget a lowrider ticks lots of boxes. I am sure the alu rigs are single section but are the carbon rigs are multi sections? Like on a 29er?

 

 

The two are about the same for transporting, the only difference is that hydrofoils are bulkier than low-rider c/b and rudder (and foilers weigh less, but that's not really an issue).

 

I think all modern Moths have a two piece mast, probably because it's much easier to ship , older ones were often one piece. You can convert one piece to two, there are others who can give good advice how to do that if you need to. My previous Moth was an Axeman II, heavier and slower than a Hungry Tiger but still lots of fun and great to learn in, and faster than nearly any other skiff in the right hands. If you can get one for around $2,000 and look after it, you'll get about that when you sell it.

 

For transport, look for a trailer. Car topping is not recommended and may be illegal due to the width - Moths are about 2.2m wide and may be too wide for your vehicle (in most Australian states the load can only exceed the vehicle width by about 150mm on each side), I use a 7'x5' box trailer purely for the width, the extra width of the wheels and mudguards make it just legal, a 6'x4' is too narrow.

 

I am about the make a trailer with a friend who is good at that sort of thing as I want something lighter to tow. Total cost is only a few hundred dollars.

 

 

 

--

Rob

 

 

Great help again Rob.

 

I imagine that after cuting down the mast you would put internal sleeve and some kind of anti rotation pin? Am I right?

 

I really like this little moth I have seen and it's abute $2000 too. But 6m+ single mast design is kind of putting me off! Can you or others you know can help me on how I can do this (cut and join) myself?

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I have a low rider hungry tiger sitting at home and its for sale.

has foils for a conversion aswell when someone is ready to step up.

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No need for anti rotation pin, cut the mast at a little bit of a diagonal.

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I have a low rider hungry tiger sitting at home and its for sale.

has foils for a conversion aswell when someone is ready to step up.

 

 

What price are you asking?

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Yes my problem is $ and there is a good chance that I will be moving around for potential work, which was why I was thinking of buying a lowrider for easy of shipping/car roof top etc. For my budget a lowrider ticks lots of boxes. I am sure the alu rigs are single section but are the carbon rigs are multi sections? Like on a 29er?

 

 

The two are about the same for transporting, the only difference is that hydrofoils are bulkier than low-rider c/b and rudder (and foilers weigh less, but that's not really an issue).

 

I think all modern Moths have a two piece mast, probably because it's much easier to ship , older ones were often one piece. You can convert one piece to two, there are others who can give good advice how to do that if you need to. My previous Moth was an Axeman II, heavier and slower than a Hungry Tiger but still lots of fun and great to learn in, and faster than nearly any other skiff in the right hands. If you can get one for around $2,000 and look after it, you'll get about that when you sell it.

 

For transport, look for a trailer. Car topping is not recommended and may be illegal due to the width - Moths are about 2.2m wide and may be too wide for your vehicle (in most Australian states the load can only exceed the vehicle width by about 150mm on each side), I use a 7'x5' box trailer purely for the width, the extra width of the wheels and mudguards make it just legal, a 6'x4' is too narrow.

 

I am about the make a trailer with a friend who is good at that sort of thing as I want something lighter to tow. Total cost is only a few hundred dollars.

 

 

 

--

Rob

 

 

Great help again Rob.

 

I imagine that after cuting down the mast you would put internal sleeve and some kind of anti rotation pin? Am I right?

 

I really like this little moth I have seen and it's abute $2000 too. But 6m+ single mast design is kind of putting me off! Can you or others you know can help me on how I can do this (cut and join) myself?

most masts are about 5.3 to 5.4m long if your is 6m+ there is somethign strange going on

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Great help again Rob.<br /><br />I imagine that after cuting down the mast you would put internal sleeve and some kind of anti rotation pin? Am I right?<br /><br />I really like this little moth I have seen and it's abute $2000 too. But 6m+ single mast design is kind of putting me off! Can you or others you know can help me on how I can do this (cut and join) myself?<br />

 

A one-piece mast should only be about 5.5m long, not much longer than maximum luff length (5.185m). Max. mast length is 6.250m, but that includes the king post so a stayed mast will probably never be that long. I used to strap my one-piece mast under the rear wing bar, sticking out a little further than the rudder gantry (add a small red or orange flag for safety). The other end went up over the top of the front compression strut, as near the centreline as I could manage with some old towel for padding.

 

It stuck out less than 2 metres past the bow and was high enough to clear the back of my car but low enough to fit through my garage door (about 2.3m high). It never caused me any issues. For a lower profile (if you really do put it on roof racks), run the mast over the rear bar and lower front bar so it's roughly parallel to the gunwale.

 

If you need to ship your boat, then a two piece will be more convenient. Otherwise, why bother? The sleeve adds weight and complexity that you may not need.

 

General instructions for making it a two piece are to cut it roughly in half (stay away from spreader mount and hounds) and sleeve one end. To stop the halves rotating when rigged, either cut it at an angle so pressure from the downhaul keeps it aligned (e.g. Burvill masts, about 10~15deg off square), or cut it straight and use a screw (e.g. Southern Spars). Find some Moths and have a look, I can post some pics if you want.

 

Alternatively, buy a (second hand?) two-piece and sell the one-piece for someone else to modify.

 

 

--

Rob

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Yes my problem is $ and there is a good chance that I will be moving around for potential work, which was why I was thinking of buying a lowrider for easy of shipping/car roof top etc. For my budget a lowrider ticks lots of boxes. I am sure the alu rigs are single section but are the carbon rigs are multi sections? Like on a 29er?

 

 

The two are about the same for transporting, the only difference is that hydrofoils are bulkier than low-rider c/b and rudder (and foilers weigh less, but that's not really an issue).

 

I think all modern Moths have a two piece mast, probably because it's much easier to ship , older ones were often one piece. You can convert one piece to two, there are others who can give good advice how to do that if you need to. My previous Moth was an Axeman II, heavier and slower than a Hungry Tiger but still lots of fun and great to learn in, and faster than nearly any other skiff in the right hands. If you can get one for around $2,000 and look after it, you'll get about that when you sell it.

 

For transport, look for a trailer. Car topping is not recommended and may be illegal due to the width - Moths are about 2.2m wide and may be too wide for your vehicle (in most Australian states the load can only exceed the vehicle width by about 150mm on each side), I use a 7'x5' box trailer purely for the width, the extra width of the wheels and mudguards make it just legal, a 6'x4' is too narrow.

 

I am about the make a trailer with a friend who is good at that sort of thing as I want something lighter to tow. Total cost is only a few hundred dollars.

 

 

 

--

Rob

 

 

Great help again Rob.

 

I imagine that after cuting down the mast you would put internal sleeve and some kind of anti rotation pin? Am I right?

 

I really like this little moth I have seen and it's abute $2000 too. But 6m+ single mast design is kind of putting me off! Can you or others you know can help me on how I can do this (cut and join) myself?

most masts are about 5.3 to 5.4m long if your is 6m+ there is somethign strange going on

 

Sorry, typing error! Thanks.

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Great help again Rob.<br /><br />I imagine that after cuting down the mast you would put internal sleeve and some kind of anti rotation pin? Am I right?<br /><br />I really like this little moth I have seen and it's abute $2000 too. But 6m+ single mast design is kind of putting me off! Can you or others you know can help me on how I can do this (cut and join) myself?<br />

 

A one-piece mast should only be about 5.5m long, not much longer than maximum luff length (5.185m). Max. mast length is 6.250m, but that includes the king post so a stayed mast will probably never be that long. I used to strap my one-piece mast under the rear wing bar, sticking out a little further than the rudder gantry (add a small red or orange flag for safety). The other end went up over the top of the front compression strut, as near the centreline as I could manage with some old towel for padding.

 

It stuck out less than 2 metres past the bow and was high enough to clear the back of my car but low enough to fit through my garage door (about 2.3m high). It never caused me any issues. For a lower profile (if you really do put it on roof racks), run the mast over the rear bar and lower front bar so it's roughly parallel to the gunwale.

 

If you need to ship your boat, then a two piece will be more convenient. Otherwise, why bother? The sleeve adds weight and complexity that you may not need.

 

General instructions for making it a two piece are to cut it roughly in half (stay away from spreader mount and hounds) and sleeve one end. To stop the halves rotating when rigged, either cut it at an angle so pressure from the downhaul keeps it aligned (e.g. Burvill masts, about 10~15deg off square), or cut it straight and use a screw (e.g. Southern Spars). Find some Moths and have a look, I can post some pics if you want.

 

Alternatively, buy a (second hand?) two-piece and sell the one-piece for someone else to modify.

 

 

--

Rob

 

Thanks again for your advice. A little more $$$ will help my situation but I don't have much more cash to spend!

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I'm thinking that there might well be quite a few carbon masts that might be available as the more modern boats have upgraded to skinnies.. for instance I have a CST skinny on mine, and an old regular diameter two piece one kicking around. Probably not anywhere that's useful to you (londonish), but there must be others who'd be tempted!

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I'm thinking that there might well be quite a few carbon masts that might be available as the more modern boats have upgraded to skinnies.. for instance I have a CST skinny on mine, and an old regular diameter two piece one kicking around. Probably not anywhere that's useful to you (londonish), but there must be others who'd be tempted!

 

Nice idea! Can you PM me? Thanks.

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