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williwaw

Mike Sanderson leaves team origin

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According to Twitter Grant Simmer will be replacing Mike Sanderson at Team Origin, so that Sanderson can join Alinghi...

Origin has good relations with Alinghi so it does all sound very plausible...

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There is also another rumor hinted at in the comments section for that article on VS. Interesting indeed if true. ;)

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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All the talk in Auckland during the LV Trophy was that Moose would be eased after that regatta. At one point the afterguard nearly came to blows on the boat - very professional in front of both the ETNZ boat captain and the on board observer (youth from RNZYS). It won't be long before any other kiwis involved with Origin also exit stage right. The team wants to be british and seem to have decided that they don't need any southern hemisphere influences. Would be good to see Moose do another VOR.

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Doesn't sound so nice to me. From the Stuart A story. Insiders say Moose might not have gotten on all that well with Ian P...

 

 

 

 

Sanderson sacked as Origin team director

By Stuart Alexander

 

 

Tuesday, 18 May 2010

 

 

 

 

 

The surprise sacking of team director Mike Sanderson was announced by Britain's Team Origin challenge for the America's Cup tonight.

 

The Kiwi who won the Volvo round the worldgrey_loader.gif race in 2004-05 had been with his family, including solo round the world racer wife Emma, in the Sardinian island of La Maddalena for training with the team, skippered by Ben Ainslie, ahead of the Louis Vuitton Trophy regatta which starts this weekend.

 

In a terse statement, Origin said that Sir Keith Mills, boss of the Origin team and deputy chairman of the organising committee for the London Olympicsgrey_loader.gif, had taken the decision as part of a restructuring exercise which is expected to include other departures.

 

"The decision has been taken to ensure that the team functions as effectively and efficiently as possible in order to improve the team's performance and ultimately win the America's Cup," said a spokesman.

 

It appears that Sanderson has paid the price for disappointing results at the Louis Vuitton regatta in Auckland in March and last week in its brand new TP52 at the Audi MedCup regatta in Lisbon.

 

Sanderson said he was feeling "a bit beaten up" but he did not want any ill feeling with Sir Keith and wished the team the best of luck. "It came as a bit of a surprise," he added.

 

 

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All the talk in Auckland during the LV Trophy was that Moose would be eased after that regatta. At one point the afterguard nearly came to blows on the boat - very professional in front of both the ETNZ boat captain and the on board observer (youth from RNZYS). It won't be long before any other kiwis involved with Origin also exit stage right. The team wants to be british and seem to have decided that they don't need any southern hemisphere influences. Would be good to see Moose do another VOR.

 

Tsk, tsk ...

 

Shades of ..... err, ah hem .... dare we mention it?

 

Gallipoli!

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Tsk, tsk ...

 

Shades of ..... err, ah hem .... dare we mention it?

 

Gallipoli!

 

I thought you were hinting at possible issues with wife swopping. :lol:

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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According to Twitter Grant Simmer will be replacing Mike Sanderson at Team Origin, so that Sanderson can join Alinghi...

Origin has good relations with Alinghi so it does all sound very plausible...

 

 

That is potentially even bigger news, since it could suggest some things about the state of affairs at Alinghi. But I can't find it anywhere besides only there.

 

"According to Twitter Grant Simmer will be replacing Mike Sanderson at Team Origin, so that Sanderson can join Alinghi..."

 

The logic doesn't read quite right, since apparently Sanderson got surprised by his dismissal. If his joining Alinghi was a part of some plan to 'swap' for Simmer then it wouldn't be a surprise at all, he would already have agreed the Alinghi / VOR path and would likely have mentioned that to Stuart A instead of coming off as 'hurt.'

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"According to Twitter Grant Simmer will be replacing Mike Sanderson at Team Origin, so that Sanderson can join Alinghi..."

 

The logic doesn't read quite right, since apparently Sanderson got surprised by his dismissal. If his joining Alinghi was a part of some plan to 'swap' for Simmer then it wouldn't be a surprise at all, he would already have agreed the Alinghi / VOR path and would likely have mentioned that to Stuart A instead of coming off as 'hurt.'

 

If it is true that Simmer is going to Origin, that will be the final nail in the coffin for Alinghi as an AC team. Question is, will JuanK also get the boot and be replaced by designers who have a more successful track record in the AC?

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All the talk in Auckland during the LV Trophy was that Moose would be eased after that regatta. At one point the afterguard nearly came to blows on the boat - very professional in front of both the ETNZ boat captain and the on board observer (youth from RNZYS). It won't be long before any other kiwis involved with Origin also exit stage right. The team wants to be british and seem to have decided that they don't need any southern hemisphere influences. Would be good to see Moose do another VOR.

 

Tsk, tsk ...

 

Shades of ..... err, ah hem .... dare we mention it?

 

Gallipoli!

 

 

yes it's pretty much exactly like Gallipoli..Mike leaves Team Origin and 100,00 soldiers died..

 

fucking crazed prof..

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All the talk in Auckland during the LV Trophy was that Moose would be eased after that regatta. At one point the afterguard nearly came to blows on the boat - very professional in front of both the ETNZ boat captain and the on board observer (youth from RNZYS). It won't be long before any other kiwis involved with Origin also exit stage right. The team wants to be british and seem to have decided that they don't need any southern hemisphere influences. Would be good to see Moose do another VOR.

 

Tsk, tsk ...

 

Shades of ..... err, ah hem .... dare we mention it?

 

Gallipoli!

 

 

yes it's pretty much exactly like Gallipoli..Mike leaves Team Origin and 100,00 soldiers died..

 

fucking crazed prof..

 

they don't need any southern hemisphere influences.

THATS HOW IT STARTED EXACTLY LIKE THAT

AND TELL SIR MILLS

 

SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE DOESNT NEED HIS INFLUENCES ----- EITHER

 

LETS DO A GOOD OL PILGRIM --NORTH VS SOUTH SAILBOAT RACE

 

FOR THE 1851 TROPHY SIR MILLS HAS

 

 

BTW HAS ANYONE SEEN THAT TROPHY YET

 

CHEERS MSP

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All the talk in Auckland during the LV Trophy was that Moose would be eased after that regatta. At one point the afterguard nearly came to blows on the boat - very professional in front of both the ETNZ boat captain and the on board observer (youth from RNZYS). It won't be long before any other kiwis involved with Origin also exit stage right. The team wants to be british and seem to have decided that they don't need any southern hemisphere influences. Would be good to see Moose do another VOR.

 

Tsk, tsk ...

 

Shades of ..... err, ah hem .... dare we mention it?

 

Gallipoli!

 

 

yes it's pretty much exactly like Gallipoli..Mike leaves Team Origin and 100,00 soldiers died..

 

fucking crazed prof..

 

they don't need any southern hemisphere influences.

THATS HOW IT STARTED EXACTLY LIKE THAT

AND TELL SIR MILLS

 

SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE DOESNT NEED HIS INFLUENCES ----- EITHER

 

LETS DO A GOOD OL PILGRIM --NORTH VS SOUTH SAILBOAT RACE

 

FOR THE 1851 TROPHY SIR MILLS HAS

 

 

BTW HAS ANYONE SEEN THAT TROPHY YET

 

CHEERS MSP

 

 

loony professor formaly known as hastings, joined at the hip with the crazed indian...

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Clearly a kick in the teeth for Mike Sanderson.

 

There had been some unhappiness in the team for a few months, a spokesman said, with a difference in opinions and management styles between Sanderson and the crew, skippered by Ben Ainslie, a main bone of contention.

 

Sport on television Sanderson, who won the Volvo Ocean Race in 2006 and has campaigned three America's Cups for New Zealand, was shocked and disappointed to be released.

 

"A British America's Cup team stands its best chance with a fully supported Ben Ainslie campaign and I have given it my very best shot over the past few years," he said.

 

"The team has not been doing as well as it should have been and it was always going to be hard with the characters we had in the team to manage that underachievement. It has been a tricky few years. At the end of the day, if we were not performing, it was my fault. That was what I was being paid for."

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All the talk in Auckland during the LV Trophy was that Moose would be eased after that regatta. At one point the afterguard nearly came to blows on the boat - very professional in front of both the ETNZ boat captain and the on board observer (youth from RNZYS). It won't be long before any other kiwis involved with Origin also exit stage right. The team wants to be british and seem to have decided that they don't need any southern hemisphere influences. Would be good to see Moose do another VOR.

Speaking of blows, anybody here know who gave Ben the shiner during the LVT?

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"The team has not been doing as well as it should have been and it was always going to be hard with the characters we had in the team to manage that underachievement.

 

I just can't think who he has in mind here.

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It would be no small surprise that Ben was in the middle of this. I've seen it before, If you ever spent any time around him on the water during training sessions and regattas, you'll see he get's what he wants and if you don't agree or get him what he wants your going to find out in a hurry without any politeness and it will be loud, at least till his coaches (nannies) arrive and quiet him down or whisk him away in a coach boat or car before it gets ugly. It's different with Percy, he's way more pleasant to be around; he's a good guy and he doesn't act like the only child Pom mentioned above.

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Plenty of great sports people are incredibly single minded and you only have to read Ben's autobiography to know where he stands. The afterguard of Ben, Perce and Bart have to be the backbone of the TO challenge, not only because of their ability but because of the strength of their friendship, and any individual who fails to gain the support of these 3 is going to be in for a hard time.

 

I am surprised that so many here seem to view TO's performance as dissappointing. Admittedly they haven't has a storming result in the LVWS but on the WMRT they have had some very credible performances and they would surely have been crowned champions last year had they done a couple more events.

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Plenty of great sports people are incredibly single minded and you only have to read Ben's autobiography to know where he stands. The afterguard of Ben, Perce and Bart have to be the backbone of the TO challenge, not only because of their ability but because of the strength of their friendship, and any individual who fails to gain the support of these 3 is going to be in for a hard time.

 

I am surprised that so many here seem to view TO's performance as dissappointing. Admittedly they haven't has a storming result in the LVWS but on the WMRT they have had some very credible performances and they would surely have been crowned champions last year had they done a couple more events.

 

There is no 'I' in TEAM! its a boat full of rock star individuals that are clearly having issues working together. Moose is on Olympic medallist like but knows about running a team... probably better to be off the sinking ship now......

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It would be no small surprise that Ben was in the middle of this. I've seen it before, If you ever spent any time around him on the water during training sessions and regattas, you'll see he get's what he wants and if you don't agree or get him what he wants your going to find out in a hurry without any politeness and it will be loud, at least till his coaches (nannies) arrive and quiet him down or whisk him away in a coach boat or car before it gets ugly. It's different with Percy, he's way more pleasant to be around; he's a good guy and he doesn't act like the only child Pom mentioned above.

It's strange. I am not aying you are wrong but I have spent a lot of time around Ben and whilke he is the most single minded person I have ever seen in sailing, I don't recognise the behavior you talk about.

 

There is no 'I' in TEAM! its a boat full of rock star individuals that are clearly having issues working together. Moose is on Olympic medallist like but knows about running a team... probably better to be off the sinking ship now......
How little you seem to know. I doubt there is a team that has a more closely knit afterguard. They have no issues at all working with each other. However, there may be a problem for outsiders trying to break into a very tightly knit circle like that and it seems that Moose didn't manage it. It's not really suprising. These guys have sailed with and against each other for most of their sailing careers (since teenageers) and were developed in a particular team environment that if you haven't been part of, you would find hard to understand. There is so much unsaid that is understood about attitudes and campaign methods, that are simply second nature. I personally am not suprised that Moose didn't fit in with them, although I always thought it wouldn't be an issue.

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I am personally pleased to see him gone from the team, this is mainly because i think he is unsportsmanly and a cheat, at the King of Cowes regatta in SB3s i had the fortune to race against some of the worlds best, and Mike was helming sailing with Glenn Bourke, he hit the windward mark, and i hailed protest (they were 1 place in front) and knowing that it was an on the water jury and i was powerless to enforce the rules myself he just looked at me with a cocky smile, knowing full well he was wrong, this kind of attitude is not what we want in our sport, and ironically he was ISAF world sailor of the year at the time...

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Yawn.. all a bunch of 'little dicks'.. as for the VOR, Jess makes look chickens, as for AC old farts wif stink boats

 

All boring old farts chasing cash... visionless rubbish..

 

Yawn old farts in dinosaur boats dumbed down or stink boat shite..

 

Grow up..

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Sorry guys, thought you lot knew who Jubba is, seems only a few do, Jabba aka Moose aka Mike Sanderson

 

 

 

press release here

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Not knowing a lot of the gossip about what has been going on dockside at the LVs as some of the rest of you, I was genuinely surprised by this. Mainly because, I suppose, I kept hearing the concept of how it was meant to work in practice. Clearly, getting that group of sailors together, the man in charge needed to provide the "platform" and take a step back. This is exactly what Moose has been saying all along. What you don't do is step on board with Percy, Simpson and Ainslie and start telling them which direction to go in. . . but I hadn't heard anything about on-board angst in the same way some of the posters seem to suggest.

 

Clearly, there was a 3-tier management structure which may have been a bit complicated with Ainslie / Percy in charge onboard, Moose nominally in charge of the project but Mills ultimately in charge of everything.

 

I can't see Ben Ainslie forgoing the chance to become the most successful Olympic sailor in history in his home waters in 2012, so it's unlikely he'll want more responsibility. Assuming Percy / Simpson also fancy a shot at the 2012 Olympics, and knowing that Keith Mills is no more than a lively amateur sailor, you have to assume that there will be a New Moose of some kind.

 

Perhaps the "restructure" refers to a senior role for some kind of design team coordinator (like - hmmm - say Grant Simmer), a higher role for a head coach (like - hmmmm - say Rodd Carr) while leaving the Ainslie / Percy / Simpson triumvirate very much in charge of the back of the boat.

 

That might be something to do with Moose talking about Mills' "background in football" - that is, sharing out roles to discreet departmental heads.

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I am personally pleased to see him gone from the team, this is mainly because i think he is unsportsmanly and a cheat, at the King of Cowes regatta in SB3s i had the fortune to race against some of the worlds best, and Mike was helming sailing with Glenn Bourke, he hit the windward mark, and i hailed protest (they were 1 place in front) and knowing that it was an on the water jury and i was powerless to enforce the rules myself he just looked at me with a cocky smile, knowing full well he was wrong, this kind of attitude is not what we want in our sport, and ironically he was ISAF world sailor of the year at the time...

 

 

nice first post dickwad. Call Moose a cheat with NO proof but what you say. Must be a case of he said she said.

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I am not privy to all the drama but is this yet another case of the English self destructing under their own personalitys? The last time they tried the AC it was a personality contest between Law/Smith/Cudmore et al and they bombed. No one can deny the sucess of Percy/Ainslie/Bart? in Olympic classes but this is not the Olympics and interesting that they believe they can do both - no one else does. Interesting that Ainslie did not (want to) take on the ethos of ETNZ which is still the benchmark in major sailing events (TP52, LV) and either modify or expand. Who ever was in charge of the new TP is clearly accountable. What is clear is that for being away from AC for so long they clearly need someone with a shit load of experience and to be honest I would be amazed if Simmer took it on...........

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It would be no small surprise that Ben was in the middle of this. I've seen it before, If you ever spent any time around him on the water during training sessions and regattas, you'll see he get's what he wants and if you don't agree or get him what he wants your going to find out in a hurry without any politeness and it will be loud, at least till his coaches (nannies) arrive and quiet him down or whisk him away in a coach boat or car before it gets ugly. It's different with Percy, he's way more pleasant to be around; he's a good guy and he doesn't act like the only child Pom mentioned above.

 

 

is that chris ainslie we're talking about here

 

or ben dickson?

 

 

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It would be no small surprise that Ben was in the middle of this. I've seen it before, If you ever spent any time around him on the water during training sessions and regattas, you'll see he get's what he wants and if you don't agree or get him what he wants your going to find out in a hurry without any politeness and it will be loud, at least till his coaches (nannies) arrive and quiet him down or whisk him away in a coach boat or car before it gets ugly. It's different with Percy, he's way more pleasant to be around; he's a good guy and he doesn't act like the only child Pom mentioned above.

 

 

is that chris ainslie we're talking about here

 

or ben dickson?

 

 

 

Seems that way doesn't it!

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How little you seem to know. I doubt there is a team that has a more closely knit afterguard. They have no issues at all working with each other in a circle jerk. However, there may be a problem for outsiders trying to break into a very tightly knit circle like that and it seems that Moose didn't manage to eat the soggy biscuit. It's not really suprising.

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A program run by Finn sailors without education? Hmmm

 

I am presuming your name is ironic!!

 

Perce has a law degree 'Mr Truth'.

 

But then why let facts get in the way of a good old snipe eh!!!

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I read the news with concern - I think we have some great sailors on board but I think they need someone like a Dalts which I thought Moose was a perfect fit for. Maybe he was too high profile for Ben/Ian and maybe a scapegoat was needed for the frankly disappointing LV results. I'm fascinated to see who will get the role but I have a lot of faith in Mills who didn't get where he is by not being able to judge characters.

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....... The last time they tried the AC it was a personality contest between Law/Smith/Cudmore et al and they bombed...........

 

you've forgotten the Peter Harrison driven effort of GBR Challenge (GBR 52, LVT 2002)

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....... The last time they tried the AC it was a personality contest between Law/Smith/Cudmore et al and they bombed...........

 

you've forgotten the Peter Harrison driven effort of GBR Challenge (GBR 52, LVT 2002)

 

And that was forgettable there were some real egos attached to that program being in cowes at the ttime

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WOW, that was a bolt from the blue!

 

Seems like someone has blown a fuse at Team Origin - and the only reason for that I can see is the recent results from LV and Med-cup. The LV write ups I've seen told this story (from TO vs Artemis knockout race on Day 10)

 

'It was Ainslie's race until several tacks into the leg he let Hutchinson get to the right in the oscillating shifts, with 400 metres separation. When they converged again, Artemis led by 46 metres. Artemis extended on the run with a damaged spinnaker and the foot tape reinforcing fluttering in the breeze. "What a brilliant job from all our crew, getting back into the race," said Hutchinson. "In hindsight, we didn't do it right up the second beat," conceded Mike Sanderson, who handles the runners on board.'

 

and Medcup seems to be a speed issue:

 

Mike S quote - "I mean, losing places when jib reaching is unheard of, and so we have to get to the bottom of it."

coupled with some back of the boat calls, as in in race 7:

 

TeamOrgin won the first race and were serious contenders in the second heat of the day, until they had to take a penalty for infringing Jochen Schuemann and the crew of Audi A1 powered by ALL4ONE near the top mark.

 

Can't see those issues being anything directly to do with Mike S, so wondering why he was given the boot, and why it was announced in the manner it was, as opposed to a 'mutual parting of the ways'. The fact that Ainslie, Percy & Bart will all be very rightly focused on 2012 makes it even more surprising IMHO

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There is no 'I' in TEAM! its a boat full of rock star individuals that are clearly having issues working together. Moose is on Olympic medallist like but knows about running a team... probably better to be off the sinking ship now......
How little you seem to know. I doubt there is a team that has a more closely knit afterguard. They have no issues at all working with each other. However, there may be a problem for outsiders trying to break into a very tightly knit circle like that and it seems that Moose didn't manage it. It's not really suprising. These guys have sailed with and against each other for most of their sailing careers (since teenageers) and were developed in a particular team environment that if you haven't been part of, you would find hard to understand. There is so much unsaid that is understood about attitudes and campaign methods, that are simply second nature. I personally am not suprised that Moose didn't fit in with them, although I always thought it wouldn't be an issue.

 

You have outlined the point exactly, maybe the afterguard can work together but last I checked it took more than 3 people to sail these boats it takes 100's you cant have the big egos if you want to succeed, Alinghi, BMWO, ETNZ all of these successful teams do it different to Origin, you know as a TEAM

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It would be no small surprise that Ben was in the middle of this. I've seen it before, If you ever spent any time around him on the water during training sessions and regattas, you'll see he get's what he wants and if you don't agree or get him what he wants your going to find out in a hurry without any politeness and it will be loud, at least till his coaches (nannies) arrive and quiet him down or whisk him away in a coach boat or car before it gets ugly. It's different with Percy, he's way more pleasant to be around; he's a good guy and he doesn't act like the only child Pom mentioned above.

It's strange. I am not aying you are wrong but I have spent a lot of time around Ben and whilke he is the most single minded person I have ever seen in sailing, I don't recognise the behavior you talk about.

 

My comments are in regards to the way Ben has acted towards non Poms. There are several coaches (non-UK teams) who have video of his antics.

 

 

I'll agree that the UK squad can be very tight and very good, They have known each other for a long time and there has been very strong competition among themselves, all fighting hard for the few spots qualified for funding. There national pride is very strong. It's also well known that there's no point saying hi to them in the boat yard because they are also the least friendly group in the boat yard.

 

I can't say if Sanderson did anything wrong but there squad has huge expectations and think they are better than they are. It's a relatively new and inexperienced as a AC team compared to the top teams, I think they have done quite well and should be happy with what they done so far. Looking at history and there failures, there doom in results. There biggest competitor is themselves.

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All the talk in Auckland during the LV Trophy was that Moose would be eased after that regatta. At one point the afterguard nearly came to blows on the boat - very professional in front of both the ETNZ boat captain and the on board observer (youth from RNZYS). It won't be long before any other kiwis involved with Origin also exit stage right. The team wants to be british and seem to have decided that they don't need any southern hemisphere influences. Would be good to see Moose do another VOR.

 

Tsk, tsk ...

 

Shades of ..... err, ah hem .... dare we mention it?

 

Gallipoli!

If it is Gallipoli you want to talk about, The Lancashire Fusiliers were there too, not exactly hanging about as they won,IIRC, 5 VC's before breakfast. If it's sailing, then I think Kiwis make an excellent addition to any team.

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WOW, that was a bolt from the blue!

 

Seems like someone has blown a fuse at Team Origin - and the only reason for that I can see is the recent results from LV and Med-cup. The LV write ups I've seen told this story (from TO vs Artemis knockout race on Day 10)

 

'It was Ainslie's race until several tacks into the leg he let Hutchinson get to the right in the oscillating shifts, with 400 metres separation. When they converged again, Artemis led by 46 metres. Artemis extended on the run with a damaged spinnaker and the foot tape reinforcing fluttering in the breeze. "What a brilliant job from all our crew, getting back into the race," said Hutchinson. "In hindsight, we didn't do it right up the second beat," conceded Mike Sanderson, who handles the runners on board.'

 

and Medcup seems to be a speed issue:

 

Mike S quote - "I mean, losing places when jib reaching is unheard of, and so we have to get to the bottom of it."

coupled with some back of the boat calls, as in in race 7:

 

TeamOrgin won the first race and were serious contenders in the second heat of the day, until they had to take a penalty for infringing Jochen Schuemann and the crew of Audi A1 powered by ALL4ONE near the top mark.

 

Can't see those issues being anything directly to do with Mike S, so wondering why he was given the boot, and why it was announced in the manner it was, as opposed to a 'mutual parting of the ways'. The fact that Ainslie, Percy & Bart will all be very rightly focused on 2012 makes it even more surprising IMHO

 

Chiming in on this, Moose sounded pretty frustrated in the interview after the coastal race in Portugal (video here). Clearly that was was a disappointing day for TO and I might be reading too much into this, but even at the time I thought his comments about the team came off sounding a little strange...

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Well, It's funny really, don't think A & P are up to match racing, & S has been the fall guy.

 

Match Racing is do much a team effort,

 

Very Sad, egos just have to be worked with, mind you 2 shinners would have been betterB),

 

Oh is that why these guys are always wearing shades.

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You have outlined the point exactly, maybe the afterguard can work together but last I checked it took more than 3 people to sail these boats it takes 100's you cant have the big egos if you want to succeed, Alinghi, BMWO, ETNZ all of these successful teams do it different to Origin, you know as a TEAM

The problem is nothing to do with the relationship between the rest of the team and the afterguard. Most of the other members of the team are guys well know to the "dream team" and there is a lot of respect and they do pull for each other. However, Moose was at the back of the bus with the afterguard and from what is now being said, it seems that didn't work well.

 

The interesting thing is who to get in to run the show. If it were me makinmg the decisions, I would want somebody the guys respect but who wouldn't want to jump on the boat. I would love to see somebody like Rod Carr (maybe he is enjoying his retirement too much) or even John Derbyshire in the role. They have proven themselves while running the Team GBR Olympic set up and have developed into great administrators. Ben, Perc and Bart, plus the rest of the team would have total respect for somebody like that and that person would understand exactly how the guys work. Then all they need is Sid to coach them and the team will be complete. of course, Perc, Bart and Ben would probably prefer Sid to stay working on their Olympic campaigns but once they are over.........

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Interesting to hear talk of the "Dalton Figure". . . apparently this is one of the issues. Given the position that Ainslie and Percy hold amongst the crew, it was apparently felt that they needed a more senior figure than Moose. Mike has undoubtedly proved himself to be a talented sailor and team leader, but is very much a contemporary of Ben and Perce. Indeed, Emma Richards - his wife - was part of the Scottish Youth Squad at exactly the same time as Bart, Perce, Ainslie and all the others were part of the English contingent that together made up the British team.

 

So it's really not a comment on anyone - just that in Moose, Perce and Ainslie they had 3 people at more or less the same level, albeit with differing experiences. Moose obviously has massively more experience in putting together big boat campaigns than the other two, although you could point out that he has never been in charge of a cup campaign before, which Percy has.

 

So yes, expect a "Dalton Figure" to be brought in. Who that will be could be telling to the future success of Team Origin.

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The interesting thing is who to get in to run the show. If it were me makinmg the decisions, I would want somebody the guys respect but who wouldn't want to jump on the boat. I would love to see somebody like Rod Carr (maybe he is enjoying his retirement too much) or even John Derbyshire in the role. They have proven themselves while running the Team GBR Olympic set up and have developed into great administrators. Ben, Perc and Bart, plus the rest of the team would have total respect for somebody like that and that person would understand exactly how the guys work. Then all they need is Sid to coach them and the team will be complete. of course, Perc, Bart and Ben would probably prefer Sid to stay working on their Olympic campaigns but once they are over.........

 

Interesting point re. the GBR coaches and there are various candidates there who could make the "head administrator" role (or the "provider of the platform" that Moose kept talking about) their own. That would need a very senior person to coordinate between sailors and designer, and that should be someone with an engineering degree and 76 America's Cup campaigns.

 

The focus on the Olympics will either shift dramatically after 2012, or end entirely as Perce and Ben hang up their Olympic hats, so this may not be so much of a problem after that.

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Well, It's funny really, don't think A & P are up to match racing,

 

Your 1st post and it's utter b0llox!!!

 

A quick analysis of last years WMRT and you can see Ben et al would almost certainly have been World Champs had they done another couple of regattas. Not good match racers then!

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There is also another rumor hinted at in the comments section for that article on VS. Interesting indeed if true. ;)

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

You mean this bit?

 

Que hubo algún negocio raro con la construcción del TP en NZ

 

I don't speak Spanish (I think its Spanish??) but it looks to me like the version of the rumour mill I heard last night here in the UK.....

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John Derbyshire

 

You really think so? I've huge respect for what he's achieved but I can't see much relationship between that and running an AC campaign.

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Interesting interview with Mosse on "The Daily Sail" which suggests that it was friction between Moose and the others. In particular, the article sates

 

The crux of the reasons for Sanderson’s departure seem to be over differing ideas between him and other senior team members within TeamOrigin.

 

For me, this quote is most telling

 

One of the biggest disappointments for me leaving TeamOrigin is the disproportionate amount of effort put in to have this result. There are three, four, five of us who have toughed it out for the last three years while others have been able to go off and do others things and come back to it when it suited them. So that is pretty disappointing.
So Moose didn't like the idea that he had to stay at home doing the non sailing part of his job while the sailors were allowed to go off sailing. How dare Ben, Perc and Bart go off winning Olympic golds when they could have been at home helping with the admin ;)

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John Derbyshire

 

You really think so? I've huge respect for what he's achieved but I can't see much relationship between that and running an AC campaign.

Maybe because I know him so well but I really think that although its a bit of lateral thinking, its not quite as rediculous as it might seem. Team GBR involved managing something like 100 sailors and support staff and the team ran a wide range of technical projects ranging from designing boats to rig development and more. John is a really able manager, gets on very well with the sailors and has a real understanding about how they work. OIt would call for a very different style of management to RC, or even GD, but I believe that it would be one that the sailors would respond to. It would need a strong head of all design and technical and a top class coach (Sid) but I could see John doing a great job of holding it all together, managing the egos, expectations etc. And I think there is an opportunity to run the campaign in a different way from, say, ETNZ or BOR and it seems to me that the role Moose was given didn't work out so maybe the whole role needs reconsidering.

 

I know JD is a long shot, but I have seen other names being thrown up, such as one I mentioned earlier - Rod Carr. On reflection, I wonder whether Rod is now too remote from the cutting edge, although I am sure everybody would deeply respect him and he would put up with no shit from any of them!

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The problem with the TP52 is that it was designed by Juan K, a repeat offender, who instead of designing a fast boat, focused on finding any stupid loophole just to show off and assert his ego. Typically Argentinean style. Did the winglets work? Fuck no. The boat is slow.

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And, I am only postulating, the two biggest calls in Mooses remit, since the inception of TO, have been:

 

1) Who designs the TP52

2) Who builds the TP52

 

IF he got both of those wrong, is it any wonder he was shown the door!

 

And if he isn't making any big decisions then WTF was he there for?????

 

'Fait a compli'

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And, I am only postulating, the two biggest calls in Moose’s remit, since the inception of TO, have been:

 

1) Who designs the TP52

2) Who builds the TP52

 

IF he got both of those wrong, is it any wonder he was shown the door!

 

And if he isn't making any big decisions then WTF was he there for?????

 

'Fait a compli'

While this may have been a contributing factor, do you really think the guys would be prepared to make the call, after just one regatta that saw them lead at the windward mark a number of times, that thew boat is a dog?

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Pretty early in the game to call the new boat a dog - it showed good speed early in the regatta and I don't see what the problem is building it at Salthouse - The've built some of the nicest boats to come out of NZ - a quick look at their completed projects shows an impressive list. Successful track records and all fantastically finished boats.

The TP also came in ahead of schedule and under budget.

 

It seems strange that they eased Moose when many of the poor results have been contributed to by the afterguard - i.e. getting unnecessary penalties in crucial moments.

Having said that, the afterguard are undoubtably one of the more talented around at the moment.

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The interesting thing is who to get in to run the show. If it were me makinmg the decisions, I would want somebody the guys respect but who wouldn't want to jump on the boat. I would love to see somebody like Rod Carr (maybe he is enjoying his retirement too much) or even John Derbyshire in the role. They have proven themselves while running the Team GBR Olympic set up and have developed into great administrators. Ben, Perc and Bart, plus the rest of the team would have total respect for somebody like that and that person would understand exactly how the guys work. Then all they need is Sid to coach them and the team will be complete. of course, Perc, Bart and Ben would probably prefer Sid to stay working on their Olympic campaigns but once they are over.........

 

Interesting point re. the GBR coaches and there are various candidates there who could make the "head administrator" role (or the "provider of the platform" that Moose kept talking about) their own. That would need a very senior person to coordinate between sailors and designer, and that should be someone with an engineering degree and 76 America's Cup campaigns.

 

The focus on the Olympics will either shift dramatically after 2012, or end entirely as Perce and Ben hang up their Olympic hats, so this may not be so much of a problem after that.

 

Engineering degree, lots of AC experience.

 

And Ben crewed on his Etchells ?

 

Just guessing..

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John Derbyshire

 

You really think so? I've huge respect for what he's achieved but I can't see much relationship between that and running an AC campaign.

Maybe because I know him so well but I really think that although its a bit of lateral thinking, its not quite as rediculous as it might seem. Team GBR involved managing something like 100 sailors and support staff and the team ran a wide range of technical projects ranging from designing boats to rig development and more. John is a really able manager, gets on very well with the sailors and has a real understanding about how they work. OIt would call for a very different style of management to RC, or even GD, but I believe that it would be one that the sailors would respond to. It would need a strong head of all design and technical and a top class coach (Sid) but I could see John doing a great job of holding it all together, managing the egos, expectations etc. And I think there is an opportunity to run the campaign in a different way from, say, ETNZ or BOR and it seems to me that the role Moose was given didn't work out so maybe the whole role needs reconsidering.

 

I know JD is a long shot, but I have seen other names being thrown up, such as one I mentioned earlier - Rod Carr. On reflection, I wonder whether Rod is now too remote from the cutting edge, although I am sure everybody would deeply respect him and he would put up with no shit from any of them!

 

That seems to make sense to me - as SimonN has said before - put someone in the role of 'platform provider' that doesn't get involved in the sailing, and hasn't got an ego that needs satisfying - let the sailors get it round the course in a headline environrnent that allows them to perform, and keep them away from having to deal with the off the water stuff.

 

Would be interesting to see how that person would deal with team members having other (equally important) commitments - for the good of TO you'd think they'd be looking for 100%, but then if 2013/14 is being put forward as a realistic date for the next AC then that could work......

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I don't really get it. how do they hope to do well. IF they get rid of Moose who are they going to get who is better. They are toast. I think there fan base just got decimated as well!

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Engineering degree, lots of AC experience.

 

And Ben crewed on his Etchells ?

 

Just guessing..

 

 

 

And the if they win, JB could write a book afterward taking all the credit, and belittling Ben's contribution.

 

Oh sorry, that was 1983...

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I think there fan base just got decimated as well!

 

I think you'd find TO's "fan base", as far as one exists, would like to see a British team.

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I think you'd find TO's "fan base", as far as one exists, would like to see a British winning team.

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I think you'd find TO's "fan base", as far as one exists, would like to see a British winning team.

 

 

Dude, that is funny

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I think you'd find TO's "fan base", as far as one exists, would like to see a British winning team.

 

Actually no. I'm not really that interested in two British rich guys playing the rent-a-Kiwi game. Pretty interested however in seeing members of my club on a British AC boat. It is in any case fairly unrealistic to think any new team is likely to win the AC first time round.

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Actually no. I'm not really that interested in two British rich guys playing the rent-a-Kiwi game.

 

whooops....too latte

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Given the results and pics of the LVT, it would appear Sir Keith Mills may have eased the wrong man.

 

Team Origin seem to be good upwind and shit downwind regardless of the boat....

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I think you'd find TO's "fan base", as far as one exists, would like to see a British winning team.

 

Actually no. I'm not really that interested in two British rich guys playing the rent-a-Kiwi game. Pretty interested however in seeing members of my club on a British AC boat. It is in any case fairly unrealistic to think any new team is likely to win the AC first time round.

 

Umm ... didn't Alinghi win first time?

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I think you'd find TO's "fan base", as far as one exists, would like to see a British winning team.

 

Actually no. I'm not really that interested in two British rich guys playing the rent-a-Kiwi game. Pretty interested however in seeing members of my club on a British AC boat. It is in any case fairly unrealistic to think any new team is likely to win the AC first time round.

 

Umm ... didn't Alinghi win first time?

 

 

Right. The correct formula for winning first time round is to buy the winning team from the last cup.

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I think you'd find TO's "fan base", as far as one exists, would like to see a British winning team.

Actually no. I'm not really that interested in two British rich guys playing the rent-a-Kiwi game. Pretty interested however in seeing members of my club on a British AC boat. It is in any case fairly unrealistic to think any new team is likely to win the AC first time round.

Umm ... didn't Alinghi win first time?

Right. The correct formula for winning first time round is to buy the winning team from the last cup.

Right. That gives you a good team, and the defender a bad team. Two for one.

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Given the results and pics of the LVT, it would appear Sir Keith Mills may have eased the wrong man.

 

Team Origin seem to be good upwind and shit downwind regardless of the boat....

 

Yeah makes you wonder. 2 races and 2 stuff ups..? What about the 2nd race and they hooked a craypot their reckon, this is after they supposedly hooked something during the TP52 race.? One thing is certain to me you will not be seeing this British team win an americas cup.! Racing at this level I would think they would be doing well to get a podium let alone win. Mike Sanderson was eased because he doesn't pull punches, some home truths were pointed out and certain members of the team took offence to that. Sir Keith, god they hand out "SIR"S easily in Pommyland, is gunna run out of people to easy at this rate.!~

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Sir Keith, god they hand out "SIR"S easily in Pommyland

 

He got it for leading the successful bid for the 2012 Olympics. He also founded and built a major UK company. It was nothing to do with Team Origin or the AC.

 

If it was up to me the whole honours system would be scrapped but that isn't going to happen as it is a useful tool for all political parties. Most countries have had it in one form or another (e.g. "Hero of the Soviet Union") and even the USA is obsessed with its "halls of fame". Keith Mills was as good a candidate for a knighthood as any and better than some.

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One thing is certain to me you will not be seeing this British team win an americas cup!!!

 

It might take them another 10 years, they might never win nada, but to write them off this early is just plain dumb!!!

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Given the results and pics of the LVT, it would appear Sir Keith Mills may have eased the wrong man.

 

Team Origin seem to be good upwind and shit downwind regardless of the boat....

 

Yeah makes you wonder. 2 races and 2 stuff ups..? What about the 2nd race and they hooked a craypot their reckon, this is after they supposedly hooked something during the TP52 race.? ....

 

They'll be hooking a Chinese submarine next...

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What they need is a Ross Brawn/Ron Dennis/Alex Ferguson figure - a man who understands:

 

a) how to run a team

B) how to spend money effectively.

 

Sailing ability of the team manager is secondary.

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It seems Mr Sanderson has been made a scape goat and good to see the performance's have picked up since his awkward departure .................

 

When you have a team of people and then Ben A etc turn up on a part time basis as off doing other things there is bound to be frictions.

 

BA credentials to be an AC winner cannot be questioned but it is currently not happening at three (well four if you include this one) LV trophies or on the TP52 circuit. Maybe it is the afterguard that needs to be changed after two years. it would be nice to see the team on the podium by now but if anything they are going backwards.

 

There is a point it is down to team on the water and not the management.

 

If I was putting a campaign together, Moose would be at the top of my list with Grant Dalton and Russell Coutts who has done less and less sailing.

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They'll be hooking a Chinese submarine next...

 

it's those north korean subs you have to look out for

 

they scatter them all over the ocean floor in front of your path

 

shut down their engines so they are silent

 

and then give a you a tin fish up the arse as you steam overhead

 

wars have been started for less

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BA credentials to be an AC winner cannot be questioned but it is currently not happening at three (well four if you include this one) LV trophies or on the TP52 circuit.

 

There are precedents for great dinghy sailors who did not turn out to be great AC skippers. Paul Elvstrom comes to mind. At least BA hasn't sunk a boat so far. Regarding TO crew-work errors, I know that as a helm that I can make an average crew look good and a good one look terrible and these are factors that don't come into play on a Finn or a Laser. I really, really would like to be wrong on this diagnosis.

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One thing is certain to me you will not be seeing this British team win an americas cup!!!

 

It might take them another 10 years, they might never win nada, but to write them off this early is just plain dumb!!!

 

I disagree.! They will never win in 10 years as thats around 2 americas cups. To win they would have to beat ETNZ or BMWO and while my arse points to the ground that will never happen. Dumb..? Narr, realistic.! Off course if you want to have a wager I'd gladly oblige. LOL..

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It seems Mr Sanderson has been made a scape goat and good to see the performance's have picked up since his awkward departure .................

 

When you have a team of people and then Ben A etc turn up on a part time basis as off doing other things there is bound to be frictions.

 

BA credentials to be an AC winner cannot be questioned but it is currently not happening at three (well four if you include this one) LV trophies or on the TP52 circuit. Maybe it is the afterguard that needs to be changed after two years. it would be nice to see the team on the podium by now but if anything they are going backwards.

 

There is a point it is down to team on the water and not the management.

 

If I was putting a campaign together, Moose would be at the top of my list with Grant Dalton and Russell Coutts who has done less and less sailing.

 

Yes for sure they seem to be having all sorts of issues at the moment, on the water, and if Mike Sanderson wasn't allowed to manage them who will.? To me they need an experienced head in their ears all the time, I don't see that happening yet. Lets see how they go in La Maddalena I'm tipping middle of the fleet.

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To win they would have to beat ETNZ or BMWO

 

You don't know those teams will still be around in 10 years. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Same goes for TO of course.

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Grant Dalton ... who has done less and less sailing.

 

 

What are you talking about?

 

Until the most recent in Cascais, Dalts sailed in every TP-52 regatta.

 

He sailed in the LVC and AC 2007.

 

And sails in LVT festivities.

 

What else do you want?

 

Of all the syndicate CEOs, he is the only one out there turning those monsters winches.

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When Williwaw started this thread, he suggested Moose might be going to Alinghi to head their Volvo show.

 

Would Wiliwaw (or anyone else) like to elaborate on this aspect of the story?

 

If so, it would mean Moose would be telling Butterworth when to get off his arse?

 

Could be fun!

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Grant Dalton ... who has done less and less sailing.

 

 

What are you talking about?

 

Until the most recent in Cascais, Dalts sailed in every TP-52 regatta.

 

He sailed in the LVC and AC 2007.

 

And sails in LVT festivities.

 

What else do you want?

 

Of all the syndicate CEOs, he is the only one out there turning those monsters winches.

 

He was talking about Coutts doing less and less sailing, fuckhead.

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[He was talking about Coutts doing less and less sailing, fuckhead.

 

 

 

Dear Frantic,

 

I am happy to be educated on this or any other point.

 

But read the sentence again.

 

"If I was putting a campaign together, Moose would be at the top of my list with Grant Dalton and Russell Coutts who has done less and less sailing."

 

What (who) is the subject of the sentence?

 

Moose, Dalts and RC !

 

So, according to Williwaw, the subject (the three musketeers) have "done less and less sailing."

 

It might apply to Moose and RC. But not Dalts.

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