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J/111 Goes Sailing...

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Ragbag - from sitting on deck at the helm position and looking over the cockpit everything feels just right. As I posted way earlier on this thread the 111 is the boat I wished the 109 had been. I test sailed the 109 and 105 in 2004 and went for the 105, if the choice had been 105 vs 111 then I think I'd have paid the extra for the 111.

 

If I bought one I'd spend a little extra and have the jib track bolts /washers covered with a padded headlining, I'd look at a backrest for the chart table as in a seaway there isn't enoug support for the navigator, then also covers for the forepeak hatch to keep the light out, a separator curtain between forepeak and heads (I donrt think the boat had one) and an oven instead of the standard grill. I don't think the upper sea berths are useable as is. I'd change the lights as they are going to get broken.

 

The 109 was designed for the European Market, people like a multi-use boat. I think the 111 has been designed for a degree of multi use as it's much better fitted out than is the Archambault M34 which very kittle below, the M34 is a lot cheaper.

 

It's a lovely boat, for me it needs a few tweaks to justify the price. It's nearly double the price a very nice used 2/3yr old 109, its the same money as a decent used 122.

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Has J-Boats put out a sail plan with dimensions; I P E etc...?

North Sails North America has posted some specific dimension information relative to the J-111 Class Sail Development Program. Link:

 

http://www.na.norths...03/Default.aspx

 

It is interesting to note that in North America the spec is for 3DL 860 (Carbon/Aramid); on the North UK Site (link below) they are referenceing 3DL 580 (Carbon/Technora).

 

http://www.northsail...US/Default.aspx

 

Thanks for the link. THe one thing I find interesting is the crossovers on the headsails. I just don't see many owners wanting the H-1 when it's design range is only 18-22. The sail below it in the range goes to 20 and above it starts at 22.

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Ragbag - from sitting on deck at the helm position and looking over the cockpit everything feels just right. As I posted way earlier on this thread the 111 is the boat I wished the 109 had been. I test sailed the 109 and 105 in 2004 and went for the 105, if the choice had been 105 vs 111 then I think I'd have paid the extra for the 111.

 

If I bought one I'd spend a little extra and have the jib track bolts /washers covered with a padded headlining, I'd look at a backrest for the chart table as in a seaway there isn't enoug support for the navigator, then also covers for the forepeak hatch to keep the light out, a separator curtain between forepeak and heads (I donrt think the boat had one) and an oven instead of the standard grill. I don't think the upper sea berths are useable as is. I'd change the lights as they are going to get broken.

 

The 109 was designed for the European Market, people like a multi-use boat. I think the 111 has been designed for a degree of multi use as it's much better fitted out than is the Archambault M34 which very kittle below, the M34 is a lot cheaper.

 

It's a lovely boat, for me it needs a few tweaks to justify the price. It's nearly double the price a very nice used 2/3yr old 109, its the same money as a decent used 122.

Jambalaya, To your and Ragbag's point earlier, the J-109 and the J-111 are clearly differentiated platforms (see Jeff Johnstone's comments in the SA video (link below)). In alignment with your thoughts, JJ does comment about "adding creature comforts to the 111 later."

 

Additionally the J-111 is sporting the most current technology relative to hull and foil design (for the boat's design brief), Hall's latest nano tube carbon spar (it is impressive...don't think Arabella had her mast in for the London show), low profile Facnor tape drive furler, newest Harken winches, etc. Having the latest technology (and a brand new boat) does come at a cost premium. This of course is just one perspective and quite admittedly a cost justification as we have #17 coming to SF (late March).

 

After Ragbag graciously invited us out sailing on #4 in conditions ranging from a typical SF 25 knots (TWS) one day to a 5 - 7 knot drifter on another; there is no doubt that the 111 hits our objective of exhilarating performance, but also a boat that is a very stable and managable platform for short handed racing and daysailing (helm / cockpit layout is impeccable). Having the overnighting capability is a plus. Like Ragbag we do not want to be dragging around "extra" furniture at the cost of performance; having the essentials works in our application. We even opted not to get the forepeak berth/cushions option as we will use this area for sail and line storage...less is more ;). The 111 aligned perfectly with our mission statement on paper; after sailing her the confirmation was undeniable.

Here is the JJ video link (first 3:30 is realted to the J-111).

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[ We even opted not to get the forepeak berth/cushions option as we will use this area for sail and line storage...less is more ;). T

 

In hindisght, I could have done without the removable v-berth as well. It shows nice, but we have already taken it out, easy to do, and won't race with it. Easy weight reduction. You can use the space for sail storage when in port but not while racing. Bow is the last place you want to have any avoidable weight.

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True.... I haven't sailed on a 111 yet, but I do have a Melges 24 and a 36.7. I get the best of both worlds right now, but I have to have two boats in order to smile in the big breeze, and sip cocktails with clients while on the hook.

 

I think they could have done better.

 

DG

 

I also think they could have done a little better, but not by that much. I think the SC37 while equally spartan has just a tad better finish below than the 111. There is room for improvement but I am not for adding material weight to the boat to make it more cush.

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Really, though... would doors, an oven, the headliner, better lighting and a better designed head layout have really turned the 111 into a displacement hull? I don't think so.

 

Additionally, what's the story with being able to see the wiring run along the interior?

Why the exposed boltheads?

Why are the interior portlights fixed and not able to be opened?

Why can I see the fiberglass pattern in the finishwork on the bulkheads?

Why not a little more wood in the interior?

 

DG

The answer to the ten questions above is, "you could do that, but it'd be heavier."

If you did any one it probably wouldn't kill the boat, but you'd be headed down the 109/105 path.....

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Really, though... would doors, an oven, the headliner, better lighting and a better designed head layout have really turned the 111 into a displacement hull? I don't think so.

 

Additionally, what's the story with being able to see the wiring run along the interior?

Why the exposed boltheads?

Why are the interior portlights fixed and not able to be opened?

Why can I see the fiberglass pattern in the finishwork on the bulkheads?

Why not a little more wood in the interior?

 

DG

The answer to the ten questions above is, "you could do that, but it'd be heavier."

If you did any one it probably wouldn't kill the boat, but you'd be headed down the 109/105 path.....

 

I had a 120 and 35, I look at the 111 as a modern version of the 35. The J120 has all that comfy stuff and part of the reason I like the 111 is it doesn't. If you want all that stuff, get the 109. THe 111 is a completley differnt beast.It's also a foot narrower than the other designs, It's not even comfortable to put a table in the salon - this boat isn't meant to be converted into a cruiser, and it's not in the design spec. IMO.

 

I agree that the interior finish could be a little cleaner but on the other hand, I think it's still a great weekender just like the 35- which is fine for what it is intended to be used for. It's certainly not the boat to be taking guests for a comfy weekend cruise - it' built for sailors.

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ragbag - I'm not for adding material weight, just a few things here and there.

 

edasner - I wouldn't hose down my 105 (European build), it had more interior than the 111.

 

I like doing longer races 200-600 miles and passage race events where the crew sleep aboard each night in port. Hence, the interior factors. Also we sail the boat from event to event so turing that into a mini-cruise is fun. Like dickiefor outright fun the 35ft cruiser plus sports-boat combo gives more fun for the $ than a newer/larger boat.

 

JJ, the French builder and the UK agent were at the show the night I was there talking to the UK owner (ex 105 owner) - I suspect European boats may have some minor cosmetic tweaks.

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I like doing longer races 200-600 miles and passage race events where the crew sleep aboard each night in port. Hence, the interior factors.

 

 

Well, come March we will be in the Newport to Cabo race, 800 nm, so will let you know how comfy these aft berths are, they look good to me though! Not sleeping on the boat in port though.

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Really, though... would doors, an oven, the headliner, better lighting and a better designed head layout have really turned the 111 into a displacement hull? I don't think so.
No, but it would be heavier.

 

Why are the interior portlights fixed and not able to be opened?
Not sure what your are talking about since both the side and aft facing ports open.

 

Why can I see the fiberglass pattern in the finishwork on the bulkheads?
Because resin and filler are HEAVY.

 

Why not a little more wood in the interior?
There are plenty of wood highlights, all the edges have then..... not sure what more you are after.

 

The boat looks great from the exterior, and I'm confident that she sails like a rocket, but WTF..... this could have been 'the one', that gave everyone the best of both worlds... something that you could sail like you stole it, yet weekend like it's a personal condo
It does give the best of both worlds with the nod going to RACER/cruiser, not CRUISER/racer. This is not the boat to buy if you want a 'personal condo' on the water. Get a Bennie.

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ragbag - I'm not for adding material weight, just a few things here and there.

 

edasner - I wouldn't hose down my 105 (European build), it had more interior than the 111.

 

I like doing longer races 200-600 miles and passage race events where the crew sleep aboard each night in port. Hence, the interior factors. Also we sail the boat from event to event so turing that into a mini-cruise is fun. Like dickiefor outright fun the 35ft cruiser plus sports-boat combo gives more fun for the $ than a newer/larger boat.

 

JJ, the French builder and the UK agent were at the show the night I was there talking to the UK owner (ex 105 owner) - I suspect European boats may have some minor cosmetic tweaks.

 

 

By the way, the order form has an option for "interior trim package". I dont know the details of what you get with that, since we ordered ours close to base (no v berth in ours, just the composite wheel option and the fold up berths). Im guessing the interior trim package is more wood trim and cabinets for those who want a more 109 like interior.

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By the way, the order form has an option for "interior trim package". I dont know the details of what you get with that, since we ordered ours close to base (no v berth in ours, just the composite wheel option and the fold up berths). Im guessing the interior trim package is more wood trim and cabinets for those who want a more 109 like interior.

 

I didn't order it either. It is exactly what you said.

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It does give the best of both worlds with the nod going to RACER/cruiser, not CRUISER/racer. This is not the boat to buy if you want a 'personal condo' on the water. Get a Bennie.

 

Already got the Bennie and the Melges. Looking to fold both, potentially, into one simple fast and comfy ride.

 

Money stays in pocketo.

 

DG

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t I have to have two boats in order to smile in the big breeze, and sip cocktails with clients while on the hook.

 

 

I've sailed on everything from a TP52 to an Open 60 to Speedboat, and nothing has ever made me smile like a 24 in the breeze. Most top pros will tell you the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Additionally the J-111 is sporting the most current technology relative to hull and foil design (for the boat's design brief), Hall's latest nano tube carbon spar (it is impressive...don't think Arabella had her mast in for the London show), low profile Facnor tape drive furler, newest Harken winches, etc. Having the latest technology (and a brand new boat) does come at a cost premium. This of course is just one perspective and quite admittedly a cost justification as we have #17 coming to SF (late March).

 

After Ragbag graciously invited us out sailing on #4 in conditions ranging from a typical SF 25 knots (TWS) one day to a 5 - 7 knot drifter on another; there is no doubt that the 111 hits our objective of exhilarating performance, but also a boat that is a very stable and managable platform for short handed racing and daysailing (helm / cockpit layout is impeccable). Having the overnighting capability is a plus. Like Ragbag we do not want to be dragging around "extra" furniture at the cost of performance; having the essentials works in our application. We even opted not to get the forepeak berth/cushions option as we will use this area for sail and line storage...less is more ;). The 111 aligned perfectly with our mission statement on paper; after sailing her the confirmation was undeniable.

Here is the JJ video link (first 3:30 is realted to the J-111).

 

Christ, who knew I had almost 7,000 views of that video?

 

Can you share how the Facnor handles? I know some of the FT-10s had issues with theirs. What about this model?

 

 

 

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ragbag - I'm not for adding material weight, just a few things here and there.

 

edasner - I wouldn't hose down my 105 (European build), it had more interior than the 111.

 

I like doing longer races 200-600 miles and passage race events where the crew sleep aboard each night in port. Hence, the interior factors. Also we sail the boat from event to event so turing that into a mini-cruise is fun. Like dickiefor outright fun the 35ft cruiser plus sports-boat combo gives more fun for the $ than a newer/larger boat.

 

JJ, the French builder and the UK agent were at the show the night I was there talking to the UK owner (ex 105 owner) - I suspect European boats may have some minor cosmetic tweaks.

 

 

By the way, the order form has an option for "interior trim package". I dont know the details of what you get with that, since we ordered ours close to base (no v berth in ours, just the composite wheel option and the fold up berths). Im guessing the interior trim package is more wood trim and cabinets for those who want a more 109 like interior.

The "interior trim package" includes varnished wood trim along the bottom and top of the main bulkhead (salon side) and a varnished wood main bulkhead door. Here is an image from hull #3 in SoCal (JK3 Ent.) that provides a good representation of the option. Without the option both the trim and door are white.

post-23683-043101700 1295290511_thumb.jpg

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for those that keep complaining that the market wants a dual purpose boat with an interior... the rate at which the boat is selling indicates otherwise...

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for those that keep complaining that the market wants a dual purpose boat with an interior... the rate at which the boat is selling indicates otherwise...

 

It is a matter of degree. Coming from a sport boat, I just needed a more friendly people cockpit, some decent berths and an enclosed head. But I am stopping well short of the floating couch/condo concept. Comment was made that a ceiling liner and a little wood won't turn the 111 into a displacement sled. It is not binary. I think about it as giving up seconds a mile with each of these 'niceties'.

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for those that keep complaining that the market wants a dual purpose boat with an interior... the rate at which the boat is selling indicates otherwise...

 

It is a matter of degree. Coming from a sport boat, I just needed a more friendly people cockpit, some decent berths and an enclosed head. But I am stopping well short of the floating couch/condo concept. Comment was made that a ceiling liner and a little wood won't turn the 111 into a displacement sled. It is not binary. I think about it as giving up seconds a mile with each of these 'niceties'.

 

We are coming from the other end of the spectrum (moving from a heavy displacement cruiser/racer); however arriving in a very similar place (in the 111) for the same reasons.

The 111 is "spot on" for our intended applicaiton of performance short handed racing and day sailing (SF Bay and NorCal coastal (with occasional overnight)).

To Ragbag's point it is a matter of degrees. For us left behind is the teak interior, stand up shower (albeit you can get pressure hot water on the 111 as an option), air conditioning and an electric fresh water head...that is being traded for the latest technology, perfect & very open cockpit layout, light weight planing hull that produces double digit speeds off the wind, and loads so light (relative to what we are used to), we are in disbelief. Per Mustang's comment, J-111 sales indicate the design brief for the boat is hitting "the target" for many sailors. It certainly is for us.

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Can you share how the Facnor handles?
The jury is still out. The flat furling strap/line didn't feed at a god angle into the drum until we lead it through the cleat close by. Personally I wished they would have used that nice open space in the bow anchor locker for a below deck Harken or such.

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It is interesting to watch the Key West results. The J/109 at 75 has beaten the J/111 at 42 for the first three races. Not sure what happened in race 2 but the 111 beat the 109 then the 109 got redress for something to move her into #1. In race 1, the 111 beat the 109 boat for boat by only a couple seconds. It is light and shifty so tactics are probably more critical than boat speed so far. Lots of racing to go.

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It is interesting to watch the Key West results. The J/109 at 75 has beaten the J/111 at 42 for the first three races. Not sure what happened in race 2 but the 111 beat the 109 then the 109 got redress for something to move her into #1. In race 1, the 111 beat the 109 boat for boat by only a couple seconds. It is light and shifty so tactics are probably more critical than boat speed so far. Lots of racing to go.

 

Worth remembering that Bill has been racing Rush for 8+years IIRC. Its a great program. J-111 crew is brand new to the boat...even if Stu is onboard and they are a 105 crew...

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It is interesting to watch the Key West results. The J/109 at 75 has beaten the J/111 at 42 for the first three races. Not sure what happened in race 2 but the 111 beat the 109 then the 109 got redress for something to move her into #1. In race 1, the 111 beat the 109 boat for boat by only a couple seconds. It is light and shifty so tactics are probably more critical than boat speed so far. Lots of racing to go.

 

Worth remembering that Bill has been racing Rush for 8+years IIRC. Its a great program. J-111 crew is brand new to the boat...even if Stu is onboard and they are a 105 crew...

 

In Race #2, Protest Committee gave RUSH a 00.03.03 credit, which amounted to 183 elapsed seconds.

 

Race #1 results are unreliable since the delta between the 1st and 2nd place was about 33 seconds per mile.

 

It is my opinion that the KWRW PHRF Consortium should have rated J/111 level with the 1D35.

 

The very first well sailed J/111 will prove that 42 is a gift rating.

 

 

Since my 111 rating is under review, I am loving the action in Key West! I also think another J boat of similar size is a good benchmark off set.

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It is interesting to watch the Key West results. The J/109 at 75 has beaten the J/111 at 42 for the first three races. Not sure what happened in race 2 but the 111 beat the 109 then the 109 got redress for something to move her into #1. In race 1, the 111 beat the 109 boat for boat by only a couple seconds. It is light and shifty so tactics are probably more critical than boat speed so far. Lots of racing to go.

 

having raced with Rush a couple years ago at KWRW, they are a great program. Bill knows how to handle his boat for sure.

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lat21 - interesting indeed, as you say cannot read too much into things.

 

The 109 is very handy on W/L, you'd think the lighter 111 would step away though. More time in the boat for 109 is a big advantage. Doing a quick check under guesstimated IRC the results would have been identical between the boats with the 111 win being tighter at only about 30 seconds on corrected. The 109s wins are by such a large margin it's got to be down to better sailing in the conditions (7mins, 3 mins, 2 mins under guesstimated IRC)

 

EDIT: Are IRC 2 sailing the same course, there are a lot of boats in that division which would be typical J111 competition over here.

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It is interesting to watch the Key West results. The J/109 at 75 has beaten the J/111 at 42 for the first three races. Not sure what happened in race 2 but the 111 beat the 109 then the 109 got redress for something to move her into #1. In race 1, the 111 beat the 109 boat for boat by only a couple seconds. It is light and shifty so tactics are probably more critical than boat speed so far. Lots of racing to go.

 

J/111 has rederssed the protest committee for giving 00:03:03 (183 seconds) elapsed time credit to the J/109 for a minor collision with the Beneafast 44.7 (3 bullets so far) that occurred prior to the start of race #2.

 

"minor collisions" scratch paint or gelcoat. This one was big enough to punch a hole through the boat (high on stbd quarter)...Not saying it was a major collision, but sure wasn't minor. Hard to say how much time/position was lost acessing the damage and getting back into the race....given no of us have any of the details of the protest, its premature to judge the redress as inappropriate or too benevolent.

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It is interesting to watch the Key West results. The J/109 at 75 has beaten the J/111 at 42 for the first three races. Not sure what happened in race 2 but the 111 beat the 109 then the 109 got redress for something to move her into #1. In race 1, the 111 beat the 109 boat for boat by only a couple seconds. It is light and shifty so tactics are probably more critical than boat speed so far. Lots of racing to go.

 

J/111 has rederssed the protest committee for giving 00:03:03 (183 seconds) elapsed time credit to the J/109 for a minor collision with the Beneafast 44.7 (3 bullets so far) that occurred prior to the start of race #2.

 

"minor collisions" scratch paint or gelcoat. This one was big enough to punch a hole through the boat (high on stbd quarter)...Not saying it was a major collision, but sure wasn't minor. Hard to say how much time/position was lost acessing the damage and getting back into the race....given no of us have any of the details of the protest, its premature to judge the redress as inappropriate or too benevolent.

 

Not only did the 109 have a large hole punched through, the Bene broke the wheel of the 109 and they had to sail the rest of the race with a crumpled wheel(they are now racing with a 105 wheel). That boat is full of my good friends and they said they started over three minutes late due to the collision. Seems like reasonable redress to me...

 

As to why they are beating the 111? That boat has sailed at the top level for a long time with a great crew. I would rather be JBoats and have their hot new racer come in second place to another J-design with a who knows how good J/105 crew on board that be Santa Cruz and get their ass kicked the first year the SC37 went to KWRW with a fully pro crew packed with designers and such. Just sayin'...

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I would rather be JBoats and have their hot new racer come in second place to another J-design with a who knows how good J/105 crew on board that be Santa Cruz and get their ass kicked the first year the SC37 went to KWRW with a fully pro crew packed with designers and such. Just sayin'...

 

 

Seriously?

 

J/Boat's puts their "hot new racer" in a... wait for it... 5 boat PHRF class???

 

Sailing with a crew that includes Stu and was the best crew the Sail Magazine contest could produce. Including beating out Espo who as we all know has a Rolex 'cause he is the best.

 

It should be a little worrisome to the J guys that the boat is not crushing that division and is not showing bigger deltas over the 109. They can market all they want but the elapsed times are what they are.

 

Anyway, at least the SC37 guys gave it a shot in IRC, against boats loaded with other pros, knowing they had a tough IRC rating. Though they were pretty full of themselves and should have known better. One wonders what would have happened to the SC37 if they had never gone to Key West.

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I would rather be JBoats and have their hot new racer come in second place to another J-design with a who knows how good J/105 crew on board that be Santa Cruz and get their ass kicked the first year the SC37 went to KWRW with a fully pro crew packed with designers and such. Just sayin'...

 

 

Seriously?

 

J/Boat's puts their "hot new racer" in a... wait for it... 5 boat PHRF class???

 

Sailing with a crew that includes Stu and was the best crew the Sail Magazine contest could produce. Including beating out Espo who as we all know has a Rolex 'cause he is the best.

 

It should be a little worrisome to the J guys that the boat is not crushing that division and is not showing bigger deltas over the 109. They can market all they want but the elapsed times are what they are.

 

Anyway, at least the SC37 guys gave it a shot in IRC, against boats loaded with other pros, knowing they had a tough IRC rating. Though they were pretty full of themselves and should have known better. One wonders what would have happened to the SC37 if they had never gone to Key West.

 

Seriously, its a OD boat, not in anyway optimized for IRC. So they did what anyone does while waiting for enough boats to sell to hopefully become an OD. They race PHRF. Not their fault only 5 other boats showed up. IRC 2 only has 2 more boats in it then PHRF 1 does, so not sure what's your point.

 

Why do you assume the other 5 boats are wankers? Why should the J/111 crush them. If the rating is "fair" and the other boats are well crewed, they shouldn't crush anyone. OBTW have you looked at the average wind speeds? Not enough wind for the J/111 to get up and plane off downwind.

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From Sail Magazine:

 

"Introducing Best Around the Buoys, SAIL's grass-roots racing initiative to reward PHRF racers for their team's performance at the local racing level and encourage racers to set a goal of racing on the national level at Key West Race Week. A team will be selected based on its local-sailing resume to earn a free entry to Key West Race Week, Jan 17–21, 2011, on board a race-ready J boat."

 

 

 

I think it would be odd to not have this team in a PHRF Division.

 

 

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Nope, I had an issue with you implying the redress was too great for "only" a minor collision, when at the time no facts were known.

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It is interesting to watch the Key West results. The J/109 at 75 has beaten the J/111 at 42 for the first three races. Not sure what happened in race 2 but the 111 beat the 109 then the 109 got redress for something to move her into #1. In race 1, the 111 beat the 109 boat for boat by only a couple seconds. It is light and shifty so tactics are probably more critical than boat speed so far. Lots of racing to go.

 

J/111 has redrssed the protest committee for giving 00:03:03 (183 seconds) elapsed time credit to the J/109 for a minor collision with the Beneafast 44.7 (3 bullets so far) that occurred prior to the start of race #2.

 

"minor collisions" scratch paint or gelcoat. This one was big enough to punch a hole through the boat (high on stbd quarter)...Not saying it was a major collision, but sure wasn't minor. Hard to say how much time/position was lost acessing the damage and getting back into the race....given no of us have any of the details of the protest, its premature to judge the redress as inappropriate or too benevolent.

 

Not only did the 109 have a large hole punched through, the Bene broke the wheel of the 109 and they had to sail the rest of the race with a crumpled wheel(they are now racing with a 105 wheel). That boat is full of my good friends and they said they started over three minutes late due to the collision. Seems like reasonable redress to me...

 

As to why they are beating the 111? That boat has sailed at the top level for a long time with a great crew. I would rather be JBoats and have their hot new racer come in second place to another J-design with a who knows how good J/105 crew on board that be Santa Cruz and get their ass kicked the first year the SC37 went to KWRW with a fully pro crew packed with designers and such. Just sayin'...

 

Sounds like crash and jsailannapolis have an issue with the J Boats Sailing Editor who, in his Key West Day One report, said:

 

"... RUSH had a minor collision prior to the start of the second race, hurting their chances to score better."

 

 

The PR machine can spin whatever it likes. Call it minor, call it major, or call it a love tap as long as the redress is fair there are no issues. The "damage" to the boat in this case was not the primary reason for filing as it might be were a sail torn. In my understanding it was primarily for the time it took to become untangled and start the race. That being said, I wasnt sailing on Rush nor was I at the hearing so I can't speak to the exact particulars.

 

 

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I think it makes sense for the J/111 to be in PHRF, IRC 2 is only 8 boats vs 6 in PHRF 1 and in any case most owners will be racing PHRF before the OD takes off

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Nope, I had an issue with you implying the redress was too great for "only" a minor collision, when at the time no facts were known.

 

What you decided to describe as implication is just a figment of your imagination.

 

My post never claimed that the 183 seconds given to RUSH was "too great", too little, or right on.

 

The term "minor collision" was originally posted by the J Boats Sailing Editor who, in his Key West Day One report, said:

"... RUSH had a minor collision prior to the start of the second race, hurting their chances to score better."

 

That should clarify some of your misconceptions.

 

 

 

Escamillo,

Your right. and I apologize. I went back and re-read your original post and all it did was report the fact that the J/111 was requesting redress of the 183 seconds granted due to the collision. While I still don't think I would consider that minor were it my boat, that's not the point. I read into your post more then I should have. Again, I apologize.

Crash

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[/i) J-111 Hull #11 (Columbian) KONTIKI V Racing at Key West Race Week...Great perspective from a (crack) J-105 crew racing the new J-111 platform...

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[/i) J-111 Hull #11 (Columbian) KONTIKI V Racing at Key West Race Week...Great perspective from a (crack) J-105 crew racing the new J-111 platform...

 

I think the better boat under IRC and PHRF now is the Beneteau 44.7

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[/i) J-111 Hull #11 (Columbian) KONTIKI V Racing at Key West Race Week...Great perspective from a (crack) J-105 crew racing the new J-111 platform...

 

I think the better boat under IRC and PHRF now is the Beneteau 44.7

 

But is it more fun than the J/111 ?

 

In the breeze they had all week?(non-planing) It probably was. I wonder if they had the AC on for when the "dogs were in the house"!! Another interesting fact about the 44.7. The owners sailed the boat down from Quebec. 2500 miles. They would have won that class easily if they didn't have so many fuck ups, navigational and fouls. They posted 5 bulitts out of 9 races.

In the first race they were on the finishing leg and rounded the leeward gate and started going upwind again. Cost them several places. They were also DSQed for the collision, and in another race which they won as well.

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[/i) J-111 Hull #11 (Columbian) KONTIKI V Racing at Key West Race Week...Great perspective from a (crack) J-105 crew racing the new J-111 platform...

 

I think the better boat under IRC and PHRF now is the Beneteau 44.7

 

But is it more fun than the J/111 ?

 

In the breeze they had all week?(non-planing) It probably was. I wonder if they had the AC on for when the "dogs were in the house"!! Another interesting fact about the 44.7. The owners sailed the boat down from Quebec. 2500 miles. They would have won that class easily if they didn't have so many fuck ups, navigational and fouls. They posted 5 bulitts out of 9 races.

In the first race they were on the finishing leg and rounded the leeward gate and started going upwind again. Cost them several places. They were also DSQed for the collision, and in another race which they won as well.

 

Note that the Beneteau withdrew after the race #2 (WAR) due to the collision. There is no information as to the protest that resulted in their DSQ. As for the bullet(s) that were taken away, DSQ could have been avoided if they exonerated their foul(s).

 

I once competed in a NOOD regatta and scored 5 bullets in 7 races but dd not finish in the top tree of a large OD class; so it goes.

 

Given that there were no planing conditions, the J/111 KWRW PHRF Rating of 42 is problematic to say the least, since the J/111 would have easily won KWRW with a rating of 39 and finished a very close second with a rating of 36.

J-111 KONTIKI V wins PHRF 1 at KWRW. J-News excerpt from today follows:

"The PHRF A Class was an extremely competitive regatta, easily the closest "delta" for the any of the fleets sailing off Key West. At the end of the last race it was still anyone's guess who would win overall. After a very even start, the fleet took off and seemingly everyone "shadowed" each other around the race track. In the first windward leg of the last race (when it all counts, of course) the great yacht KONTIKI V, the J/111 sailed by Jim Sminchak's team from Cleveland, OH, somehow managed to find a "crab pot", catch it, stop, go head to wind, tack, go backwards, yet still round the first windward mark just in front of their nemesis, the J/109 RUSH sailed by Bill Sweetser. It was a crazy day. It was a goofy day, perhaps for many. Nevertheless, the 111 managed to sail cleanly for the balance of the race, stretched out in front of their competitors and win the regatta with a 2-3 on the last day. Bill's team on the J/109 RUSH sailed a great regatta to get second, fourth was Doug Curtiss's beautiful J/124 WICKED sailed by Rodney and Alan Johnstone on the team."

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IMHO, the J/105 KWRW PHRF rating of 42 was a bit of a gift.

 

I think you mean the J/111 rating, not J/105. The bigger issue here, and it is emphasized in the interview video with the crew that was posted here by Jim, is that the boat and crew were both stone cold, neither dialed in yet. Had the J/111 been sailed like the J/109 by a seasoned team tuned into the boat, the results would have been better, maybe by quite a lot. Quite good that they can come into a brand new boat like this and do this well. It is a strong 105 team but as they themselves note, a 111 is no 105. I don't think there is a 111 out there yet rated below 40. I am still awaiting my rating for #4.

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Where will you be racing it, and under what handicap/measurement rule(s) ?

 

We race out of San Francisco, so the SF Bay and coastal. We will sail Newport to Cabo San Lucas race (800 nm) in March under ORR, we just had boat weighed/measured. The rest of the time PHRF, except for Big Boat Series which is under IRC, so a little bit of everything.

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I have just put a deposit down on hull 25 and can't wait for the spring delivery. I've been watching this all week and first of all, huge kudo's to Jim Sminchak and crew. They won based on consistently well sailed races in an unfamiliar boat. The consistency of their results is largely the result of crew work more so (or at least as much as) than the boat. WELL DONE, gentlemen! Secondly, ratings will sort themselves out, but this boat seems to have proved itself a competent contender as well.

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Would someone mind rescoring the results of the PHRF division into IRC given the ratings that we know for Rush (1.042 last season), Galilee (1.140) and the J/111 which is around 1.09? I lack the software to do so and am curious to see how things fall. Yes I know there are sail choices between the two rules and such and such but a general idea would be nice.

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I lack the software to do so and am curious to see how things fall.

 

You don't have Excel nor a pocket calculator?

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Would someone mind rescoring the results of the PHRF division into IRC given the ratings that we know for Rush (1.042 last season), Galilee (1.140) and the J/111 which is around 1.09? I lack the software to do so and am curious to see how things fall. Yes I know there are sail choices between the two rules and such and such but a general idea would be nice.

Elapsed time multiplied by rating ... I did this for rush but using 1.015 which would be the us od spec with a #3. the UK 109's race od with a 140% jib which rates 1.03 going to 155 now avoided under IRC

 

When I used 1.015 for the 109 results were unchanged vs 111, I suspect at 1.04 things will be different

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Would someone mind rescoring the results of the PHRF division into IRC given the ratings that we know for Rush (1.042 last season), Galilee (1.140) and the J/111 which is around 1.09? I lack the software to do so and am curious to see how things fall. Yes I know there are sail choices between the two rules and such and such but a general idea would be nice.

Elapsed time multiplied by rating ... I did this for rush but using 1.015 which would be the us od spec with a #3. the UK 109's race od with a 140% jib which rates 1.03 going to 155 now avoided under IRC

 

When I used 1.015 for the 109 results were unchanged vs 111, I suspect at 1.04 things will be different

I'm pretty sure Rush went with their genoa (look at some of the vids).

 

If it's the same config as NYYC Race Week IRC TCC = 1.042.

 

And by the way, please share the times/spreadsheet. Will save some time for the rest of us :D

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I lack the software to do so and am curious to see how things fall.

 

You don't have Excel nor a pocket calculator?

 

Don't even need that. If you've got a computer with net access (like wot you need to post on forums), Google Docs has a perfectly serviceable spreadsheet.

 

http://docs.google.com/

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I have just put a deposit down on hull 25 and can't wait for the spring delivery. I've been watching this all week and first of all, huge kudo's to Jim Sminchak and crew. They won based on consistently well sailed races in an unfamiliar boat. The consistency of their results is largely the result of crew work more so (or at least as much as) than the boat. WELL DONE, gentlemen! Secondly, ratings will sort themselves out, but this boat seems to have proved itself a competent contender as well.

 

First of all, congrats on signing up to the boat! Boat is fast out of the box (our first race, we received a provisional PHRF of 20, and still stayed ahead of everybody on corrected), so we experienced that as well. Still room up, boat is quite sensitive to trim. Plenty to sort out, tune and dial in.

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I have just put a deposit down on hull 25 and can't wait for the spring delivery. I've been watching this all week and first of all, huge kudo's to Jim Sminchak and crew. They won based on consistently well sailed races in an unfamiliar boat. The consistency of their results is largely the result of crew work more so (or at least as much as) than the boat. WELL DONE, gentlemen! Secondly, ratings will sort themselves out, but this boat seems to have proved itself a competent contender as well.

 

First of all, congrats on signing up to the boat! Boat is fast out of the box (our first race, we received a provisional PHRF of 20, and still stayed ahead of everybody on corrected), so we experienced that as well. Still room up, boat is quite sensitive to trim. Plenty to sort out, tune and dial in.

 

I got Hull 28 coming in May so I want all your intel :)

 

T

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Warning: I need to double check this but I have so far,

 

1) re-scored PHRF 1 assuming there were just the 109, 111, 44.7 (clearly boats may have changed tactics had it been just a 3 boat division). I left the DSQ race 5 as per scoring for both PHRF and IRC

2) PHRF-modified would have been 109, 44.7 with the 111 in 3rd

3) Under IRC 4 of the races would have had different results

4) Under IRC result would have been 109 / 111 / 44.7

 

In the actual racing the 111 was more consistent and the 44.7 in particular had DFLs which hurt her overall.

 

It's hard to draw too many conclusions, in reality an IRC optimised 109 would race with a 140-ish genoa and rate at 1.03 - on a W/L it's a very good boat and I'd probably expect one to beat a J/111 in non-planing conditions. Even non-optimised as here (too big a genoa) comes out on top in this crude IRC re-hash

 

Excel/Numbers attachments not allowed (sheet hopefully self explanatory)

 

KWRW PHRF 1.pdf

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Warning: I need to double check this but I have so far,

 

1) re-scored PHRF 1 assuming there were just the 109, 111, 44.7 (clearly boats may have changed tactics had it been just a 3 boat division). I left the DSQ race 5 as per scoring for both PHRF and IRC

2) PHRF-modified would have been 109, 44.7 with the 111 in 3rd

3) Under IRC 4 of the races would have had different results

4) Under IRC result would have been 109 / 111 / 44.7

 

In the actual racing the 111 was more consistent and the 44.7 in particular had DFLs which hurt her overall.

 

It's hard to draw too many conclusions, in reality an IRC optimised 109 would race with a 140-ish genoa and rate at 1.03 - on a W/L it's a very good boat and I'd probably expect one to beat a J/111 in non-planing conditions. Even non-optimised as here (too big a genoa) comes out on top in this crude IRC re-hash

 

Excel/Numbers attachments not allowed (sheet hopefully self explanatory)

 

KWRW PHRF 1.pdf

 

Thanks. The only surprise there is that, under roughly rescored IRC, the 111 is as close to the 109 as it is (19 and 18 points respectively). I would have thought that the difference would be greater. Yes tactics and sail choices may have changed but I'd like to think that this is a good general indicator.

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Just returned to the frigid icy north after a hot, steamy, but rather light air Key West Race week. I raced in PHRF 1 on the J109 Rush. The typical conditions were light and lumpy out of the SE-S-SW, so light in fact that we as a crew never fully hiked all week. More typically, we had two to three crew down on the keel. Typically, the wind went right just enough such that starboard tack was pretty squarely into the waves - not our best point of sail in less than ten knots. We flew our 145 the entire week. While our intruments said there was occasionally wind above 10 knots at the top of the mast, we never felt it on the water. So while it was a sunny and beautiful week, we never had the breeze we would have liked. My impressions of the boats were:

 

- Galilee (Bene 44.7). The great story here is Jean-Pierre (sp??) and team brought the boat 2500 miles down to Key West on the water - sailed on her own bottom as it were. In the conditions we saw, she was untouchable. While we were struggling for power, she was fully powered up and going like hell. I don't know what she should have rated, but clearly the rating she had wasn't in the ballpark in the conditions we saw. Turns out they put on a deeper keel with no bulb (lighter) and a custom carbon rig a meter taller with masthead kites (faster) - no wonder they were powered up. For this I think they went from a typical rating of 39 to a penalized rating of 33. If they had not thought there were six legs the first race (there were only four), hit us in prestart race 2, and fouled the OD35 (port-starboard) in a later race, they likely would have had straight firsts. They were just gone. Should have / would have/ could have been headed back to Quebec with the trophy after racing on Thursday. Big bummer for those guys.

- Wicked (J124). Not much to say here other than they never seemed to be able to sail to the rating. Occasionally went very fast, but just were never very impressive. I was really surprised and dissappointed with their performance. Having said that it was by far the sexiest (best looking) boat on the race course)

- Revolution (OD35). I'm convinced these boats have been condemned by PHRF. I owned one that rated 27, whereas in KW they rated 36. These boat should rate closer to 45 or so in my opinion. Fantastic boat (regardless of build quality), but the most difficult boat to sail to its rating that I have ever sailed.

- Kalevala (Grand Soleil 37). Dont know alot about this boat either. My understanding is they had old sails, but they were just never fast. Not sure why, but they were way off the pace.

- Rush (J109). Lot of experience, very well prepared, newer sails, sailed pretty well for the week with just a couple snafus. Certainly we could have gone faster. Being the slow boat in the fleet (by a lot) certainly put us at a disadvantage No way we could have beat the 44.7 - they were in a different league. I felt like as soon as the breeze got above ten knots we could hang with the J111 up wind, but down wind they were always faster. When the wind went right and we were square into the chop on starboard tack, we were slow and the J111 stayed fast. That simple. In above ten knots, we may have been able to beat them. In less than ten, which was typical, they had us.

- Kontiki (J111). Pretty boat, sailed very well. They deserved the win. They were initially given a rating of 48 (!!!) by the consortium, but the rating was reduced to 42 as a result of a protest based on IRC ratings. I was disappointed with them when they protested the redress we were given when we were hit hard in the prestart by the Bene (redress was granted initially by a three person jury, then confirmed after their protest by a five person jury). The boat has beautiful lines, and looks great going through the water. Certainly the carbon rig helps reduce the hobby-horsing in the chop. Seems like a nice boat but $295,000? You could buy 6 Farrs 30's and start your own OD fleet for that. Disclaimer - I've owned a J27, two J29, and J33 and am a huge Jboat fan.. on the used market at least.

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J-111 KONTIKI V wins PHRF 1 at KWRW. J-News excerpt from today follows:

"The PHRF A Class was an extremely competitive regatta, easily the closest "delta" for the any of the fleets sailing off Key West. At the end of the last race it was still anyone's guess who would win overall. After a very even start, the fleet took off and seemingly everyone "shadowed" each other around the race track. In the first windward leg of the last race (when it all counts, of course) the great yacht KONTIKI V, the J/111 sailed by Jim Sminchak's team from Cleveland, OH, somehow managed to find a "crab pot", catch it, stop, go head to wind, tack, go backwards, yet still round the first windward mark just in front of their nemesis, the J/109 RUSH sailed by Bill Sweetser. It was a crazy day. It was a goofy day, perhaps for many. Nevertheless, the 111 managed to sail cleanly for the balance of the race, stretched out in front of their competitors and win the regatta with a 2-3 on the last day. Bill's team on the J/109 RUSH sailed a great regatta to get second, fourth was Doug Curtiss's beautiful J/124 WICKED sailed by Rodney and Alan Johnstone on the team."

 

Like I previously stated, had the the J/111 been rated at 39 they would have won the regatta with 23 points compared to 25 points for the boat that finished second.

 

At a rating of 36, the J/111 would have finished in second place, very close to the J/109 in first place.

 

IMHO, the J/111* KWRW PHRF rating of 42 was a bit of a gift.

 

__________

 

* EDITED

At 38, which is what the IRC (1.091) rating works out to, the 111 finishes 2nd with 26 points (no throw outs). My guess is the boat should rate in the mid to low 30's (32 or 35).

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Why would you conclude mid to low thirties when someone on the second place boat says that the 111 should have won, and the IRC rating (which we know the boat should rate poorly under) implies 38? Seems like a harsh conclusion that I would resent if I were the guys on the 111.

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- Kalevala (Grand Soleil 37). Dont know alot about this boat either. My understanding is they had old sails, but they were just never fast. Not sure why, but they were way off the pace.

 

 

It was optimized for heavier wind. They only had non-overlapping jibs while the boat can use 150%.

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TCWippy - thanks that's great info (and agree with you on the protest)

 

Lefthook - as I scored only 3 boats the results were likely to be close.

 

I recall Jeff J saying the 111 had the sail area of a 109 (with a #3) but the weight for a 105 - so lighter air she should power up fast.

 

There are lot of GS 37's in France/Italy in areas where the wind is lightish - I've only ever seen them with #3's, I've raced a very competitive IRC two handed 50 boat event which was won by a GS37, in the right hands they go very well and were an IRC targetted design.

 

Given the likely reaching and running performance of the 111 if it can hang in there in a light and lumpy W/L that bodes very well for more breeze and for passage racing.

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Why would you conclude mid to low thirties when someone on the second place boat says that the 111 should have won, and the IRC rating (which we know the boat should rate poorly under) implies 38? Seems like a harsh conclusion that I would resent if I were the guys on the 111.

The boat was sailed for the first time by its crew, they could not have consistently sailed the boat to full potential. That's not a knock on them just fact. The Delta between the 124 and 111 was consistently close.

 

To the genius that posted that the boat didn't have a 150, you're a moron. Have you looked at the boat? Put a 150 on that boat and you'll go upwind like an Catalina 36.

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Given the likely reaching and running performance of the 111 if it can hang in there in a light and lumpy W/L that bodes very well for more breeze and for passage racing.

 

 

Isn't that the best W/L condition for that kind of boat? It's light and has a lot of sails, thus it should be fast in light air and the big asymmetrical kite works well due to angles used. Medium wind W/L is likely the worst for it and in heavy air it has to survive the beat before showing its planing on the run. Can it take back on the run all that it has lost on a beat against e.g. First 40 (or 44.7) with similar rating in heavy air?

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Why would you conclude mid to low thirties when someone on the second place boat says that the 111 should have won, and the IRC rating (which we know the boat should rate poorly under) implies 38? Seems like a harsh conclusion that I would resent if I were the guys on the 111.

The boat was sailed for the first time by its crew, they could not have consistently sailed the boat to full potential. That's not a knock on them just fact. The Delta between the 124 and 111 was consistently close.

 

To the genius that posted that the boat didn't have a 150, you're a moron. Have you looked at the boat? Put a 150 on that boat and you'll go upwind like an Catalina 36.

 

+1

 

As good as that team is, they are new to the boat. Likewise, the boat(J111) still does not have any hard tuning data to go by yet. In contrast, Rush is a well established, very sucessfull program that knows the boat inside and out.

 

Just returned to the frigid icy north after a hot, steamy, but rather light air Key West Race week. I raced in PHRF 1 on the J109 Rush. The typical conditions were light and lumpy out of the SE-S-SW, so light in fact that we as a crew never fully hiked all week. More typically, we had two to three crew down on the keel. Typically, the wind went right just enough such that starboard tack was pretty squarely into the waves - not our best point of sail in less than ten knots. We flew our 145 the entire week. While our intruments said there was occasionally wind above 10 knots at the top of the mast, we never felt it on the water. So while it was a sunny and beautiful week, we never had the breeze we would have liked. My impressions of the boats were:

 

- Galilee (Bene 44.7). The great story here is Jean-Pierre (sp??) and team brought the boat 2500 miles down to Key West on the water - sailed on her own bottom as it were. In the conditions we saw, she was untouchable. While we were struggling for power, she was fully powered up and going like hell. I don't know what she should have rated, but clearly the rating she had wasn't in the ballpark in the conditions we saw. Turns out they put on a deeper keel with no bulb (lighter) and a custom carbon rig a meter taller with masthead kites (faster) - no wonder they were powered up. For this I think they went from a typical rating of 39 to a penalized rating of 33. If they had not thought there were six legs the first race (there were only four), hit us in prestart race 2, and fouled the OD35 (port-starboard) in a later race, they likely would have had straight firsts. They were just gone. Should have / would have/ could have been headed back to Quebec with the trophy after racing on Thursday. Big bummer for those guys.

- Wicked (J124). Not much to say here other than they never seemed to be able to sail to the rating. Occasionally went very fast, but just were never very impressive. I was really surprised and dissappointed with their performance. Having said that it was by far the sexiest (best looking) boat on the race course)

- Revolution (OD35). I'm convinced these boats have been condemned by PHRF. I owned one that rated 27, whereas in KW they rated 36. These boat should rate closer to 45 or so in my opinion. Fantastic boat (regardless of build quality), but the most difficult boat to sail to its rating that I have ever sailed.

- Kalevala (Grand Soleil 37). Dont know alot about this boat either. My understanding is they had old sails, but they were just never fast. Not sure why, but they were way off the pace.

- Rush (J109). Lot of experience, very well prepared, newer sails, sailed pretty well for the week with just a couple snafus. Certainly we could have gone faster. Being the slow boat in the fleet (by a lot) certainly put us at a disadvantage No way we could have beat the 44.7 - they were in a different league. I felt like as soon as the breeze got above ten knots we could hang with the J111 up wind, but down wind they were always faster. When the wind went right and we were square into the chop on starboard tack, we were slow and the J111 stayed fast. That simple. In above ten knots, we may have been able to beat them. In less than ten, which was typical, they had us.

- Kontiki (J111). Pretty boat, sailed very well. They deserved the win. They were initially given a rating of 48 (!!!) by the consortium, but the rating was reduced to 42 as a result of a protest based on IRC ratings. I was disappointed with them when they protested the redress we were given when we were hit hard in the prestart by the Bene (redress was granted initially by a three person jury, then confirmed after their protest by a five person jury). The boat has beautiful lines, and looks great going through the water. Certainly the carbon rig helps reduce the hobby-horsing in the chop. Seems like a nice boat but $295,000? You could buy 6 Farrs 30's and start your own OD fleet for that. Disclaimer - I've owned a J27, two J29, and J33 and am a huge Jboat fan.. on the used market at least.

 

Excellent synopsis. Thank you.

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I believe the J/Boats Sailing Editor was sailing on Kontiki

 

So J/Boats has a person on the Sailing World Staff? Or does Sailing World have an Editor with a J/Boat bias? Or is there some other conspiracy I'm missing. SW had guys riding 4 or 5 boats as I recall.

 

SA could've done the same thing if not for being so busy "ignoring" KWRW. Just saying....

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I believe the J/Boats Sailing Editor was sailing on Kontiki

 

So J/Boats has a person on the Sailing World Staff? Or does Sailing World have an Editor with a J/Boat bias? Or is there some other conspiracy I'm missing. SW had guys riding 4 or 5 boats as I recall.

 

Stu Johnstone, who was tactician on Kontiki, also writes the J/Boats newsletter

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Given the likely reaching and running performance of the 111 if it can hang in there in a light and lumpy W/L that bodes very well for more breeze and for passage racing.

 

 

Isn't that the best W/L condition for that kind of boat? It's light and has a lot of sails, thus it should be fast in light air and the big asymmetrical kite works well due to angles used. Medium wind W/L is likely the worst for it and in heavy air it has to survive the beat before showing its planing on the run. Can it take back on the run all that it has lost on a beat against e.g. First 40 (or 44.7) with similar rating in heavy air?

 

My thought was that a 109 and 44.7 with big overlapping jibs would have the power to get over the waves. I suspect the 111 is very good in light air and flat water.

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Why would you conclude mid to low thirties when someone on the second place boat says that the 111 should have won]

He said that J /111 deserved to win based on the KWRW PHRF raing, not on how well it was sailed; no one knows how well the J/111 was sailed.

 

 

 

... and the IRC rating (which we know the boat should rate poorly under) implies 38?

We don't know what that particular J/111s IRC rating would have been; and even if we did, translating the IRC TOT to PHRF TOD is at best a guestimate.

 

What we have are elapsed finish times that prove that at 39 the J/111 would have still won the regatta, and at 36 it would have finished very close to first place.

 

What makes you think that the J/111 deserved to win the regatta, especially since

"As good as that team is, they are new to the boat. Likewise, the boat (J111) still does not have any hard tuning data to go by yet. In contrast, Rush is a well established, very sucessfull program that knows the boat inside and out."

 

 

Seems like a harsh conclusion that I would resent if I were the guys on the 111.

Actually the conclusion obtained by analyzing race results is much more logical than the methodology used by the KWRW PHRF Consortium to pull the 48 and 42 numbers out of their asshole.

 

Do you know that PHRF San Francisco provisionally rated the J/111 at 20?

 

 

You have stated multiple times that the PHRF rating is too high. What basis are you using?

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Why would you conclude mid to low thirties when someone on the second place boat says that the 111 should have won]

He said that J /111 deserved to win based on the KWRW PHRF raing, not on how well it was sailed; no one knows how well the J/111 was sailed.

 

 

 

... and the IRC rating (which we know the boat should rate poorly under) implies 38?

We don't know what that particular J/111s IRC rating would have been; and even if we did, translating the IRC TOT to PHRF TOD is at best a guestimate.

 

What we have are elapsed finish times that prove that at 39 the J/111 would have still won the regatta, and at 36 it would have finished very close to first place.

 

What makes you think that the J/111 deserved to win?

 

 

 

Seems like a harsh conclusion that I would resent if I were the guys on the 111.

Actually the conclusion obtained by analyzing race results is much more logical than the methodology used by the KWRW PHRF Consortium to pull the 48 and 42 numbers out of their asshole.

 

Do you know that PHRF San Francisco provisionally rated the J/111 at 20?

 

 

I do think its interesting to look at the math to see what rating would have led to another result, but I just think that somehow assuming that the 111 deserved second place is unfair to the crew. This whole excercise is why one design is the way to go. I hope the 111 achieves that quickly.

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Do you know that PHRF San Francisco provisionally rated the J/111 at 20?

 

 

This is NOT true. My boat #4 was so rated (PHRF=20) by one race committee in one race. We are awaiting fir PHRF San Fran to rule on the boat this week. They have given zero indication thus far. The race in question should not weigh on handicap as it was in the Oakland Estuary with its nonstandard light and variable conditions. I do think that KWRC provided some good benchmark input data for the boat's handicap going forward. That said, these are performance handicaps and subject to adjustment as a function of actual perormance on the race course.

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Do you know that PHRF San Francisco provisionally rated the J/111 at 20?

 

 

This is NOT true. My boat #4 was so rated (PHRF=20) by one race committee in one race. We are awaiting fir PHRF San Fran to rule on the boat this week. They have given zero indication thus far. The race in question should not weigh on handicap as it was in the Oakland Estuary with its nonstandard light and variable conditions. I do think that KWRC provided some good benchmark input data for the boat's handicap going forward. That said, these are performance handicaps and subject to adjustment as a function of actual perormance on the race course.

 

 

Holy misquote batman!!!

 

But back to the question, Escamillo, backup your opinion with some sort of rationale beyond "its not rated right".

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Do you know that PHRF San Francisco provisionally rated the J/111 at 20?

 

 

This is NOT true. My boat #4 was so rated (PHRF=20) by one race committee in one race. We are awaiting fir PHRF San Fran to rule on the boat this week. They have given zero indication thus far. The race in question should not weigh on handicap as it was in the Oakland Estuary with its nonstandard light and variable conditions. I do think that KWRC provided some good benchmark input data for the boat's handicap going forward. That said, these are performance handicaps and subject to adjustment as a function of actual perormance on the race course.

 

 

Holy misquote batman!!!

 

But back to the question, Escamillo, backup your opinion with some sort of rationale beyond "its not rated right".

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2. Race Results, which prove that the boat would have won the KWRW even with the PHRF rating of 39 and would have finished very close to first place with a PHRF rating of 36.

 

2. The fact that the J/111 was not sailed to its full potential due to lack of time on the water experience.

"As good as that team is, they are new to the boat. Likewise, the boat (J111) still does not have any hard tuning data to go by yet. In contrast, Rush is a well established, very successful program that knows the boat inside and out."

3. My experience in comparing similar boats that are rated by PHRF.

 

That is pretty weak.

 

One small set of race results (not enough to make a reasonable judgement) and something as subjective as "they are too new to the boat".

 

Comparing to similar boats is the only way to determine the PHRF rating at this point and I've yet to see any real numbers from similar boats to dispute the rating. The SC37 is the only boat I've heard mentioned and that hasn't been established.

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Why would you conclude mid to low thirties when someone on the second place boat says that the 111 should have won]

He said that J /111 deserved to win based on the KWRW PHRF raing, not on how well it was sailed; no one knows how well the J/111 was sailed.

 

 

 

... and the IRC rating (which we know the boat should rate poorly under) implies 38?

We don't know what that particular J/111s IRC rating would have been; and even if we did, translating the IRC TOT to PHRF TOD is at best a guestimate.

 

What we have are elapsed finish times that prove that at 39 the J/111 would have still won the regatta, and at 36 it would have finished very close to first place.

 

What makes you think that the J/111 deserved to win the regatta, especially since

"As good as that team is, they are new to the boat. Likewise, the boat (J111) still does not have any hard tuning data to go by yet. In contrast, Rush is a well established, very sucessfull program that knows the boat inside and out."

 

 

Seems like a harsh conclusion that I would resent if I were the guys on the 111.

Actually the conclusion obtained by analyzing race results is much more logical than the methodology used by the KWRW PHRF Consortium to pull the 48 and 42 numbers out of their asshole.

 

Do you know that PHRF San Francisco provisionally rated the J/111 at 20?

 

 

When I said the J111 "deserved to win", I actually was referring to how well-sailed the boat was. They did a very nice job, starting well, making nice moves on the race course (their move off the race course to protest our redress was a different story entirely...), and getting faster and faster as the week went on. Their rating was what the rating was. I will say it would have been a complete joke if they had been able to race with their initial rating of 48, and the results back that up. Also, in my opinion, the results and my experience on the race course both suggest the J111 certainly shouldn't rate any higher than the 1D35. The J111 beat the 1D35 boat for boat most of the races by several minutes, even though the 1D35 was rated 6 seconds per mile faster. And this with the J111 being sailed by this crew for the first time with no tuning data to fall back on.

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+1

 

Escamillio have you ever sailed on a 111? Or even been physically on one?

 

If you claiming that that as prerequisite for having an opinion in regards to a PHRF rating necessitates sailing on the boat, then the KWRW PHRF Consortium should not have rated the J/111.

 

If you disagree with my race analysis and my opinion as to a reasonable range of initial ratings for the J/111, present your own data.

 

I accept the data in the form of the results from KWRW and commend the 111 crew on their win. You seem to want to diminish their accomplishment.

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The average elapsed time difference between the J124 and J111 was +4 sec/mi. In PHRF terms that would be a rating of 33-36. If the J124 Rating can be taken as a good benchmark.

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The average elapsed time difference between the J124 and J111 was +4 sec/mi. In PHRF terms that would be a rating of 33-36. If the J124 Rating can be taken as a good benchmark.

I agree, especially if Rod and Alan Johnstone were racing aboard the J/124.

 

This is another confirmation of the reasonable range of ratings for the J/111.

 

 

 

 

 

+1

 

Escamillio have you ever sailed on a 111? Or even been physically on one?

If you claiming that that as prerequisite for having an opinion in regards to a PHRF rating necessitates sailing on the boat, then the KWRW PHRF Consortium should not have rated the J/111.

 

If you disagree with my race analysis and my opinion as to a reasonable range of initial ratings for the J/111, present your own data.

I accept the data in the form of the results from KWRW and commend the 111 crew on their win. You seem to want to diminish their accomplishment.

I have no idea how you developed that uniformed opinion.

 

How is the fact that even with a 3 second per mile faster rating, the J/111 still wining the KWRW regatta diminishing the crew accomplishment?

 

How is the fact that even with a 6 second per mile faster rating , the J/111 finishing in a very close second place diminishing their accomplishment?

 

This is not about the J/111 crew accomplishment which was substantial, this is about an incorrect rating that is going to effect every boat that competes against a J/111 in PHRF.

 

The 124 sails in my local fleet and I know the guys onboard.

 

The 124 IS a good boat with lots of talent onboard(not even counting the Johnstones) She is well prepped with a new bottom job specifically for KW and three or four new sails as well.

 

She has been sailed by the same guys for three years now. Including Rod Johnstone at BIRW(which they won)

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Marry me espo!

 

Also, J/124 did good

 

I'll second that. I've sailed with a few of the crew onboard and they're all solid. The boat is very very well prepped and the only comment that I have is that the boat might be a little difficult to rate due to the few mods they did.

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I may have gotten the PHRF organization name wrong, but what part of "provisionally rated the J/111 at 20" is not true?

 

 

Look, let's just keep things in context. The 20 rating was one race, one race committee. Any implication that it was a broader judgement than that on the boat's perceived performance is incorrect.

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Does anyone know if Galilee (the Beneteau 44) plans on doing CRW? Hope so, as they were good competitors and a fun group. If so, though, there needs to be upfront discussion about their PHRF rating. Their most recent published IRC rating was 1.140 which I believe translates to between 12 and 13 PHRF. Not to sound like sour grapes, but kinda takes the suspense out of spending 20k to travel to a regatta and see how you stack up when the next guy gets a 20 second rating gift...

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Does anyone know if Galilee (the Beneteau 44) plans on doing CRW? Hope so, as they were good competitors and a fun group. If so, though, there needs to be upfront discussion about their PHRF rating. Their most recent published IRC rating was 1.140 which I believe translates to between 12 and 13 PHRF. Not to sound like sour grapes, but kinda takes the suspense out of spending 20k to travel to a regatta and see how you stack up when the next guy gets a 20 second rating gift...

Never question the PHRF Consortium!

They better than you, me and any owner what a boat should rate.

 

Never question the PHRF Consortium!

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I may have gotten the PHRF organization name wrong, but what part of "provisionally rated the J/111 at 20" is not true?
EVERYTHING. The 20 had NOTHING to do with the NorCal PHRF. We wanted to do a club level race so "I" gave us a rating of 20 (much lower than the ratings issued thus far). This was a race put on by the Island Yacht Club and they were nice enough to let us race with a made up rating.

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I may have gotten the PHRF organization name wrong, but what part of "provisionally rated the J/111 at 20" is not true?

 

 

Look, let's just keep things in context. The 20 rating was one race, one race committee. Any implication that it was a broader judgement than that on the boat's perceived performance is incorrect.

 

 

Do you guys realize escamillo= akagp ?

 

Trying to have a constructive convo with the guy is useless. He has an agenda regarding the J111 rating.

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I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122.