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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Rapscallion

plywood protos

27 posts in this topic

I have been pricing Minis along with some (single handed larger designs) and it looks like a used production model is pretty reasonable compared to many home builds... My question is: assuming you have the chops to build, is there a home build design out there that would give you a better bang for your buck than a reasonably priced production design?

 

And considering the new scow mini,and the use of chines, the fast hull shapes are looking easier to pull off by a home builder... Imagine a 650 opti hull????

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A fault in the mini rules is that a home built plywood mini is considered a proto. I spoke w/ a plywood designer and he felt that a well built plywood design could be built within about +15% of a custom proto. You would have to decide with that compromise would be competitive against lighter protos.

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A fault in the mini rules is that a home built plywood mini is considered a proto. I spoke w/ a plywood designer and he felt that a well built plywood design could be built within about +15% of a custom proto. You would have to decide with that compromise would be competitive against lighter protos.

 

Ya, I don't get that either... If you are building in ply it obviously means you are budget conscious. I think in some ways the spirit of the class has lost it's roots.. granted, compared to other classes the campaign costs are lower. And if that was the goal then mission accomplished. I would like to see the all out carbon protos in one class and plywood derby racers in another. But, what the current arrangement does is add value to production boats, which is a good thing.

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Earlier this year there was some talk of adding a third division for pending series builds and older protos. While the idea was generally liked as a means to get more boats onto the water, the adminstration of it looked to be tough and the idea was shelved

 

For the Dix boats, if the mast height, boom length and sprit length don't fit in the Series rules plus if they are made with expoxy I am not sure how they could fit into the Series rules regardless of how many are built. Plus the matter of how to determine if they are all the same. Possilbly what is being advocated is a lower tech proto division?

 

 

 

A fault in the mini rules is that a home built plywood mini is considered a proto. I spoke w/ a plywood designer and he felt that a well built plywood design could be built within about +15% of a custom proto. You would have to decide with that compromise would be competitive against lighter protos.

 

Ya, I don't get that either... If you are building in ply it obviously means you are budget conscious. I think in some ways the spirit of the class has lost it's roots.. granted, compared to other classes the campaign costs are lower. And if that was the goal then mission accomplished. I would like to see the all out carbon protos in one class and plywood derby racers in another. But, what the current arrangement does is add value to production boats, which is a good thing.

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Earlier this year there was some talk of adding a third division for pending series builds and older protos. While the idea was generally liked as a means to get more boats onto the water, the adminstration of it looked to be tough and the idea was shelved

 

For the Dix boats, if the mast height, boom length and sprit length don't fit in the Series rules plus if they are made with expoxy I am not sure how they could fit into the Series rules regardless of how many are built. Plus the matter of how to determine if they are all the same. Possilbly what is being advocated is a lower tech proto division?

 

 

 

A fault in the mini rules is that a home built plywood mini is considered a proto. I spoke w/ a plywood designer and he felt that a well built plywood design could be built within about +15% of a custom proto. You would have to decide with that compromise would be competitive against lighter protos.

 

Ya, I don't get that either... If you are building in ply it obviously means you are budget conscious. I think in some ways the spirit of the class has lost it's roots.. granted, compared to other classes the campaign costs are lower. And if that was the goal then mission accomplished. I would like to see the all out carbon protos in one class and plywood derby racers in another. But, what the current arrangement does is add value to production boats, which is a good thing.

 

 

 

Ya, I think that is what I was getting at... but if the needed interest was there it probably would have happened already.

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segmenting the class would never end... if you're on a budget, go buy a older mini! less than 15K euros! A new Dix would cost you a lot more.

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segmenting the class would never end... if you're on a budget, go buy a older mini! less than 15K euros! A new Dix would cost you a lot more.

 

 

That sounds interesting. So, where does one look for a used mini?

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segmenting the class would never end... if you're on a budget, go buy a older mini! less than 15K euros! A new Dix would cost you a lot more.

 

That sounds interesting. So, where does one look for a used mini?

Go to the official Mini Class and the unofficial mini class web sites. They're easily found on Google.

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I've been lurking for a while on this thread. I don't really understand why alot of guys don't like protos. It's almost like when the Tbirds came out and kicked the crap out of all the overpriced 1/4 and 1/2 tonners years ago.

A price list for a Didi mini from Third Coast Composites 3 years ago was like 7500.00 not including freight. So it's not a cheaper alternative. Especially when you add sail costs and spars custom made to open class specs.

 

There is nothing wrong with buying a good used hull and doing a refit. But it's like a BMW in L.A. or a Pick up truck in Texas. Usually beat to crap and overvalued.

Thoughts?

 

-Roger

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Money will always be; first the determining factor, second what are you tryi ng to ackomplish like sail where? be competitive and finally what is your timeline. Personally I would love to build a ply mini. But I want to be competitive in Europe, so that is out and I do not have the talent or desire to build a carbon boat with my own hands. For me a used late model or new carbon mini is my only option. I want to be competitive, every decsion is based on that.

 

For US sailors almost any true mini would ba a good option. I seen sevceral good used boats that can be bought very cheap over there. Buy go race a event or two and ship the boat home. That is what I'd do for US sailing. My two cents.

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I have been pricing Minis along with some (single handed larger designs) and it looks like a used production model is pretty reasonable compared to many home builds... My question is: assuming you have the chops to build, is there a home build design out there that would give you a better bang for your buck than a reasonably priced production design?

 

And considering the new scow mini,and the use of chines, the fast hull shapes are looking easier to pull off by a home builder... Imagine a 650 opti hull????

 

 

I have nothing but respect & admiration for the guys whp build their own boats & for the woodies in particular.

Yet when you talk of costs, please do not forget that your own time has market value, when you build a ply Mini and you choose to talk about costs, you are valuing your own time at less than $10 per hour! The "value" inherent in building your own boat is better considered in terms of satisfaction & skill development. Otherwise, you are probably wiser to get a part-time job & put all of your earnings into buying a used Mini.

 

Re where to buy one - just send me an e-mail.

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There is a successful plywood series mini, the Super Calin that has been sailed by people on the Med. Whenever there was more than 30 knots or less than 5, they were the ones to beat. In those conditions, few protos would go faster. The boat is not at maximum width, which probably helps it upwind. I spoke with the designer last week and he has sold the design - just not sure of what his English is like.

 

I had one for a year in 2005 and it was a very enjoyable boat to sail.

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The Super Calin is a successful series design.

Over 30 built including 803 built in 2010.

There is one boat in North America, she was built in Quebec, Benjamin # 718.

Other than this boat I believe all the others were built at the farm in Orange, Provence.

That's a great place for a vacation, very close to Avignon & Port Camargue, the French Mini base on the Med.

I visited Magnan & went for a test sail of the SC2 (Polish built glass series) & saw several SC's in Port Camargue.

The SC interior is beautiful & functional which helps explains why many of them are cruising rather than racing.

Several ( 6, 7 or 8) have done the MT & finished in the top 10 series boats.

The 2.10 m beam rather than the max allowable 3.0m gives the SC an up-wind advantage but clearly a disadvantage off-the wind.

I am curious to know who Jean-Pierre sold the boat design to & how one was built in Quebec - I will see if anyone on Leo's site knows.

post-13939-080755400 1286645471_thumb.jpg

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what are some good home build designs that are competitive and can be constructed using the foam sandwich construction?

 

Measured the garage and it will fit, trying to get some ideas together

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what are some good home build designs that are competitive and can be constructed using the foam sandwich construction?

 

Measured the garage and it will fit, trying to get some ideas together

I know Jake Jefferis in the UK home built a mini (794, Mad Dog) and it has been going pretty well, just came second narrowly in Solent 650.

 

Besides a few teething problems the boat has been doing well too.

Here's his facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/JakeJefferisMiniTransat?fref=ts

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Good evening,

A question about the DIx designed MIni. Has any of them actually competed (or completed) in the MIni Transat? There is lots of info on his website of Dix MIni's in build, but very little news of them out on the race course.

Regards,

Multisail.

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All, I live in Chicago and I've got the itch for a Mini 6.5. We've got some nice port-to-port races during the sailing season and a Mini 6.5 would be a blast. I also race around the buoys and I understand that the windward performance of these boats leave something to be desired. Nevertheless, it is a safe keel boat that is designed to be raced single handed. I have strip built a nice row boat (http://www.compumarine.com/projects/R_Wagner.htm), completely restored an Evelyn 32-2 that was in pretty sad shape (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1669749116545.83411.1621862082&l=0290a25c2f&type=1), and I love the process of boat building. So, I've ordered the study plans for the Dix Mini Mk3. I'm also going to consider the Leech mini 650 (http://www.leechboats.com/). Are there any other wooden designs I should consider in my quest to build this boat? Yeah, yeah, I know . . buy a used one and restore. I'd rather build it from the ground up . . . just because I like it.

 

rolf

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Looking at his site, he designs some quick looking boats, and even while a plywood mini will be slower than one of similar lines and different construction, it'll still be damn quick! I was considering building a Dix (Mk2?) with a friend of mine a few years back, but logistics fell through, as well as my wanting a canting keel set us apart.

 

I think this is exactly what the plans were drawn for, I will be personally be buying a well used mini and restoring her once I have the time and money, but this sounds like a great project for you.

 

As for the designs, these are the only two I know of (Dix and Leech), and I find the biggest question within the designs is canting or fixed keel.

 

Keep us updated on your progress, there are already some pretty well documented builds, but it's always fantastic to see more!!!

 

HW

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Lucas in France has a plan for plywood, fixed keel.

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Looking at his site, he designs some quick looking boats, and even while a plywood mini will be slower than one of similar lines and different construction, it'll still be damn quick! I was considering building a Dix (Mk2?) with a friend of mine a few years back, but logistics fell through, as well as my wanting a canting keel set us apart.

 

I think this is exactly what the plans were drawn for, I will be personally be buying a well used mini and restoring her once I have the time and money, but this sounds like a great project for you.

 

As for the designs, these are the only two I know of (Dix and Leech), and I find the biggest question within the designs is canting or fixed keel.

 

Keep us updated on your progress, there are already some pretty well documented builds, but it's always fantastic to see more!!!

 

HW

The real issue is that anything you build yourself is necessarily going to be a "Proto" and the modern protos are so high tech, you won't be competitive. And unless you build and sell 5 (IIRC) you won't count as a "Classe Mini" - where you might be competitive.

 

OTOH, if you modified the Dix design to have a "Scow Bow" you might get 5 folks to build one.

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That's what I was trying to say, in a very roundabout way. Any home builds, or even new series classes are all protos until their class is built.

 

Think so? Could be a gold mine....

 

HW

 

Looking at his site, he designs some quick looking boats, and even while a plywood mini will be slower than one of similar lines and different construction, it'll still be damn quick! I was considering building a Dix (Mk2?) with a friend of mine a few years back, but logistics fell through, as well as my wanting a canting keel set us apart.

 

I think this is exactly what the plans were drawn for, I will be personally be buying a well used mini and restoring her once I have the time and money, but this sounds like a great project for you.

 

As for the designs, these are the only two I know of (Dix and Leech), and I find the biggest question within the designs is canting or fixed keel.

 

Keep us updated on your progress, there are already some pretty well documented builds, but it's always fantastic to see more!!!

 

HW

The real issue is that anything you build yourself is necessarily going to be a "Proto" and the modern protos are so high tech, you won't be competitive. And unless you build and sell 5 (IIRC) you won't count as a "Classe Mini" - where you might be competitive.

 

OTOH, if you modified the Dix design to have a "Scow Bow" you might get 5 folks to build one.

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Home-build will never be serie class, its in the rules.

Who cares if your ply proto is not top competitive, its the experience. And if your a good sailor,you will not be slow.. and even faster then a few carbon racers.

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I totally agree with Lucas.

 

When you start sailing mini's the skipper is much more important then the speed of the boat.

 

To sail a mini competitive you have to be very talented, well trained (on a mini) and have very good tactical skills.

Sailing any mini is a challenge and can be very enjoyable if you can handle it.

Sail any mini a lot and then answer this question: Am I that good that I need a top mini to be a contender for the top places?

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I have had a few friends from Australia do the mini thing over the years and from talking to them the biggest thing is a HUGE amount of drive and motivation but the most important thing is being able to speak French. You can pick up motivation during the race but you can't pick up French!

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