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Windy6327

Moth Wing #2 Bora

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Yeah I got one too. And Bora's story is late, but it'll be here by Wednesday morning's front page, and you won't find it on Sail-World ;)

 

Anyone wanna try a guess at why it looks so familiar?

10_29257_Moth_Wing.jpg

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Yeah I got one too. And Bora's story is late, but it'll be here by Wednesday morning's front page, and you won't find it on Sail-World ;)

 

Anyone wanna try a guess at why it looks so familiar?

 

It was built by some familiar Canuckistanians...

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Clean,

 

this isn't a pissing contest, no need to get defensive. They just had it up before you had shots of yours and i thought it to be in the interest of the anarchy masses to see a photo of the beast.

 

Looks clean, 2 element? and yeh Magnus Clark designed it so should prove to be powerful and "light" (hopefully more robust than the C Class stuff).

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Other images I've seen of it make it look like a 3 element job...

 

Would like to know it's rough weight, and most importantly if Object2 would consider going into wing production, seeming as it took them with bora and kotoun's help a little over a week to make this one...

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It needs to be a two element to comply with the July IMCA exec rule interpretation which goes something like:

The bit which is held up with the stays is measured as the mast, the bit which attaches to the mast is measured as the sail and the class only allows one sail.

 

What might be there is an attached flap on the mast trailing edge, so long as there is no gap then its not an extra sail.

 

Its early days of moth wings and how the rules will be interpretted, and how they will be measured will undoubtably mature with time.

 

There is some serious planning underway in Aust, so Adam and Bora may not be alone in wing land come Belmont. Some of the ideas are quite different.

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Apologies to Bora/whoever took the photo - this one shows the wing details a little bit better.

 

It does look like a flap on the 1st element, no slot. Still, does this make it a sail because last time I checked it's pretty hard to have a mast that can change it's section shape...

post-7689-095741800 1286863102_thumb.jpg

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Nathan Outridge topped 31.1knts according to his facebook post 2days ago.

 

Perhaps this is why a wing is been developed for the worlds on Nathan's home waters, no chance of beating the aus sailors without one?

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There is no gap between a mast and an ordinary bolt rope sail either. Wouldn't of said having a gap was the issue, just separately trimable should be enough to consider it the sail? Then what ever the thing off the back is becomes the problem.

 

Cant wait to see it on the water though. Very cool.

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Apologies to Bora/whoever took the photo - this one shows the wing details a little bit better.

 

It does look like a flap on the 1st element, no slot. Still, does this make it a sail because last time I checked it's pretty hard to have a mast that can change it's section shape...

 

There are not any rules that state that a mast is not allowed to bend for the specific task of changing the shape of the sail.

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Apologies to Bora/whoever took the photo

i'ts Thierry

 

Photo ©: ThMartinez / Sea&Co / www.thmartinez.com

Class: International Moth

Club or Area: Toronto, Canada

 

In the AUS & UK media early ( yachtsandyacting.com)

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There is no gap between a mast and an ordinary bolt rope sail either. Wouldn't of said having a gap was the issue, just separately trimable should be enough to consider it the sail? Then what ever the thing off the back is becomes the problem.

 

Cant wait to see it on the water though. Very cool.

 

 

The gap is a non-issue, under the moth rules you could sail with a jib or spinnaker if you wanted, as long as you only had one sail and one mast.

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Yeah I got one too. And Bora's story is late, but it'll be here by Wednesday morning's front page, and you won't find it on Sail-World ;)

 

Anyone wanna try a guess at why it looks so familiar?

 

Since I have inside info I'll abstain from answering. But I will say I laughed when told about the design process and how simple it was and was also told that the stays are there to both hold the mast upright and because it is lighter than air and would float away otherwise.

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It would also look familiar because it's essentially the top piece of Canaan's rig with some modifications.

 

Full piece from Bora tonight, along with another huge surprise from the Canaan program, on the front page.

 

And it's 3 element AFAIK...it goes swimming today...

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Yeah I got one too. And Bora's story is late, but it'll be here by Wednesday morning's front page, and you won't find it on Sail-World ;)

 

Anyone wanna try a guess at why it looks so familiar?

 

me, me, .... sir sir, me pick me....

I know.......

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It would also look familiar because it's essentially the top piece of Canaan's rig with some modifications.

 

Full piece from Bora tonight, along with another huge surprise from the Canaan program, on the front page.

 

And it's 3 element AFAIK...it goes swimming today...

 

bugger, i knew that one.....

 

It is interesting that he article on front page talkes about cats being the new revolution, whilst the real revolution is happening right here, right now! Adam or Bora, which one is the new Che Guvara?

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Cats are the new revolution.

 

Lets not forget where the wing idea started and was revitalized this year... I do believe that was by the catamaran fraternity...

 

And as clean said this is a donor section of Canaan's rig... (cough... from a catamaran).

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And as clean said this is a donor section of Canaan's rig... (cough... from a catamaran).

 

Wouldn't quite call it a "donor", though the family resemblance is uncanny - Canaan's '10 LAC wing is still hanging safe and sound on the island.

 

-Skaf

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Whoever started this thread, a little "not work friendly" warning would be nice next time. Boss walked in and wing pic was on full screen, luckily R&D guys love tech porn of all kinds. That's some hot shit Bora, can't wait to see how it rates.

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It would also look familiar because it's essentially the top piece of Canaan's rig with some modifications.

 

Full piece from Bora tonight, along with another huge surprise from the Canaan program, on the front page.

 

And it's 3 element AFAIK...it goes swimming today...

 

bugger, i knew that one.....

 

It is interesting that he article on front page talkes about cats being the new revolution, whilst the real revolution is happening right here, right now! Adam or Bora, which one is the new Che Guvara?

 

going by looks alone bora's well ahead ernesto-che-guevara450x.gif

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So does anyone happen to know an easy way of getting in touch with Object2 skiff works - clearly if Bora's wing is largely a section of C-cat rig, they have the tooling available to build more of these things... people want to know what it would take to get one made.

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Bora talks all about his shiny new toy, how he got it, and how his first sail went today. Listen on the embedded player below, or download the MP3 here.

 

<div> <div style="text-align: left; color: #595653; font-size: 11px; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; padding-top: 10px; padding-right: 5px;">The Sailing Anarchy Innerview - Bora Gulari's New Moth Wingsail </div> <object width="550" height="100"> <param name="movie" value="http://s3.amazonaws.com/stlth/static/production/swf/audio_controller.swf"></param>'>http://s3.amazonaws.com/stlth/static/production/swf/audio_controller.swf"></param> <param name="wmode" value="opaque"></param> <param name="flashvars" value="song_label=Bora Wing Innerview 10-13-2010.mp3&music_track=http://drop.io/download/public/w2vg4l5k7s9cbkvjpyjm/38d91ebf71323008cfafa66f8a66f9df5982620d/Asset/48492847/v3/web_preview&autoplay=false"></param> <embed src="http://s3.amazonaws.com/stlth/static/production/swf/audio_controller.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="opaque" width="550" height="100" flashvars="song_label=Bora Wing Innerview 10-13-2010.mp3&music_track=http://drop.io/download/public/w2vg4l5k7s9cbkvjpyjm/38d91ebf71323008cfafa66f8a66f9df5982620d/Asset/48492847/v3/web_preview&autoplay=false"> </embed> </object></div>

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So does anyone happen to know an easy way of getting in touch with Object2 skiff works - clearly if Bora's wing is largely a section of C-cat rig, they have the tooling available to build more of these things... people want to know what it would take to get one made.

 

Listen to the innerview - Bora covers it pretty well. Long story short: You ain't gonna have one this year, though construction isn't all that complicated if you have the basic skills and a good design plan.

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Thanks Clean. That interview is great, answers a lot of non-technical questions very well.

 

Might just send fredo a PM and see what the deal might be in the future, because Bora's not wrong in that time is rapidly evapourating for Belmont.

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So does anyone happen to know an easy way of getting in touch with Object2 skiff works - clearly if Bora's wing is largely a section of C-cat rig, they have the tooling available to build more of these things... people want to know what it would take to get one made.

 

PM Blunted or Lawnboy. Object 2 Skiffworks is owned by Fred Eaton and Jason Lemieux. It's called Object 2 as the 2nd objective of our YC is to promote Canadian yacht architectre and building. Lawnboy (aka Rob Paterson) is carbon man there, as is Rossi but I don't know what handle he uses here. Blunted draws the pretty pictures in concert with Steve Killing. But if you email Blunted or Lawnboy, you'll get what you need. They make Fredo's C Class cats along with some sweet looking i14s.

 

EDIT: saw your note about emailing Fredo. He's not too speedy on the email and I do believe at the moment you would more likely find him in Duck Hunting Anarchy. Blunted is around this week and on the road all next week.

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Geez! And I just want to try and sail a moth, just once or so. The tech and hardware is going so fast and by leaps and bounds so much...who can catch up with this arms race? Gotta love it and sail it like you stole it Bora! Just amazing...Thanks for the great innerview Clean.

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Big credit to Steve Killing on this project. I don't think it's been said enough.

 

Steve is instrumental in making this all happen.

 

Good job to all the boys for pulling the project together so quickly.

 

MC

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Adam or Bora, which one is the new Che Guvara?

 

 

post-27731-071286300 1286990691_thumb.jpg

 

Had to be Bora, look at the Raptor Sails beret.

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So will a the wing increase the competitive weight range for this class? It would be great if it does! I'd love to sail a moth but being 90kg I'm too heavy to be as competitive racing as I would like.

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So will a the wing increase the competitive weight range for this class? It would be great if it does! I'd love to sail a moth but being 90kg I'm too heavy to be as competitive racing as I would like.

 

Weight range currently seems to be pretty broad. Unless we were in Dubai again or another marginal wind venure / event, you would be fine at 90kgs even without a wing!

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Adam or Bora, which one is the new Che Guvara?

 

 

post-27731-071286300 1286990691_thumb.jpg

 

Had to be Bora, look at the Raptor Sails beret.

 

OK may be a little off topic, but this is getting funny.

 

Photos today and Cleans interview were really awesome, thanks for doing that. The real info on how fast is this, both Bora and Adam are keeping under their hat (or beret!). I could imagine that a wing would really help in the sail transition changes you need to make between getting onto the foils and being on the folis ie.the need for max power mode to the need least rig drag mode. If you could do that without pulling 4 stings (sheet, d haul, vang, outhaul) to say 2, then you could transition between the gusts more effectively and hold speed. This is only my very limited 2c worth, but it seems this is a big deal on a Moth and something that already separates men from boys out on the race track! All is going to be revealled in next few months and I'm sure there has now to be a few Aussies and Euros rushing into build mode.

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So will a the wing increase the competitive weight range for this class? It would be great if it does! I'd love to sail a moth but being 90kg I'm too heavy to be as competitive racing as I would like.

 

Weight range currently seems to be pretty broad. Unless we were in Dubai again or another marginal wind venure / event, you would be fine at 90kgs even without a wing!

 

If you want to be in the top few at a worlds it's not very broad. No matter where your worlds are you're going to get a light weather day...2-3 races on that day....if you can't perform because of your weight then you're history. To me the real advantage of the wing could be making this class much more attractive to heavier sailors, time will tell I guess :)

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Wing likely weighs more than the cloth sails and mast, its simply more material (even if carbon). This reduces its benefits for the heavier sailor as it places more weight on the hydrofoils. L/D max is drastically higher, as is CLmax, which will help the heavier sailors, but it also helps the light guys equally. In essence, weight limits are set more by hydrofoil design than sail and wing design, although like I mentioned you can tailor a wing to give you higher lift and thus more power than the soft sail. It will help, and certainly changes the game completely, but only time will tell if the heavyweights can keep up with the light sailors.

 

I also think people are overly concerned with physical weight. The higher performance the boat, generally, the better it carries weight. Yes the top spots are often dominated by crews near the low end of the scale with very good heavy air sailing skills, such that they are competitive across all wind ranges. At the end of the day, these guys are often light because they are practicing often and staying physically fit, both of which make significantly larger differences than 5-10kg of weight.

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that is some cool stuff. Bora really is the US Airforce with all those wings.

 

I wonder what AMAC thinks about the solid wing. I may ask him......

 

 

When is the capsize test? I hope it survives, and the technology proves viable.

 

 

ed

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Obviously any weight penalty should theoretically be made up for with efficiency, but for S&G's whats it weigh in at?

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For those interested in Amac's views - here they are reposted from the Mach2 forum:

 

Adam May did an amazing job to build a wing and get it working straight up mainly by himself. Bora has another on the go' date=' being built by the Canadian C Cat team. The initial questions are: Is it faster? Will it hold together? Will it be faster around a racecourse? If these questions answered in the affirmative, then more important questions are: Does it enhance the experience sailing a Moth? Will it make a class that has become the darling of the sailing world in a very short time, over technology itself so that it suffers the same malaise of the C class Cat , very small numbers and only sailed at major events? My gut feeling is if the class lets the rig become the standard then the answer to the last question could well be true.

 

My firm belief is that we need to restrict the rig to make the boat stay as a super practical, easily transportable, fun to sail dinghy.

 

But, I hear you say, what if we had done this, like many wanted, when foils were introduced? There is a serious difference between the introduction of foils and the wing and the biggest one is that foils enhanced the experience of Moth sailing to a degree that has changed not only the perception of the Moth but also of sailing around the world. Recently I found a pile of old sailing magazines; there was one from 1987, it had a picture of a C Class Cat with a wing rig not looking so different to the ones they have today. The introduction of the wing sail to the C Class did not enhance the class to the point where people were jumping into it because it was such a cool thing to do, and a will not for the Moth either.

 

So the biggest question to me is the one that I don't yet have a really good answer to: If the class decides to restrict the wing, how do we do it with a simple and elegant rule like the one that was used to ban windsurfing style rigs. (There is a point: that is something the class restricted, and obviously gained from by not being sucked into being just another windsurfer style which could have easily happened.)

 

I have some ideas for a rule, but I can't yet find one that is really elegant. Most will be controversial so I won't mention them yet.

 

The rule should be such that it does not restrict development, that makes sense for the class, but it should restrict development that makes the class too much more expensive (I know there are arguments that the wing is not expensive, but unless you have very skilled free time on your hands I think you'll find it will be), fragile and difficult to transport.

 

And we can't gloss over the fact that the wing rig will also make the boat very difficult to rescue.

 

Sure I would love to build one, but my focus has always been on doing development that enhances the experience of Moth sailing and brings it to as many people as possible. The wing for me does not do that.

 

Am I anti wing? Hell no, I'm hanging out to pore over Bora’s when he comes to Melbourne this summer. (Then send them out on a big south-westerly on Port Phillip Bay and see how it copes )

 

Should it be banned now? Certainly not. The philosophy of the Moth class should stay as before; everything is allowed until it threatens the stability or functionality of class. Hopefully someone will build one that will win some races so we can really see how much better it is. Then, we act. [/quote']

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I figure I should "weigh" in on the weight issue. I bought a moth at the start of the year, knowing full well that i was out of weight range for the boat. 105kg's is almost out of range for any 11' dinghy!

 

regardless i spent a lot of time getting my boat fitness up playing around in the moth and capsizing a lot, until my muscle response to the movements that were required to keep the boat upright was refined. Its still not there, but I can have a nice afternoon of straight line foiling at the moment, and my weight is still approx 100kg. Corners, well thats the next phase of my training!

 

The Moth will fly with a big helm, and to be honest when I have had the boat going well i've not been losing out too much on the lighter guys I sail with. I can generate a lot of righting moment when I'm out on the wing bars, and the apparent wind sailing loves this.

 

getting on the foils does take longer in light winds, but i knew that when i bought in. But as i have been told, the guys with the right technique will fly before those without, so its just practice and technique...

 

Please don't discount buying a moth because you are a bigger sailor. The fact that you will foil a little later is not worth missing out on the joy of foiling once you get up and flying.

 

And to be honest for 99.99% of us, just competing at a worlds is satisfying enough, especially when there are now full time professionals and olympic sailors at the pointy end who can and probably are sailing 7 days a week.

 

rgds

 

SW

 

EDIT: having said all that the sketch book is filling up with notes on wing design and construction at the moment i agree that it could provide a heavier sailor with a wider competitive wind range

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I think Adam May's comments don't really take into account the fact that the C-class cat has always been a rarefied realm with only a handful of participants at any one time. There has never been a "fleet" of C class cats going out there to race on Wednesday nights, whereas the Moths have experienced fleets both large and small over the years. It is true that the foils have added to the experience dramatically, and they have certainly branded the class and made it very sexy to those not involved. Prior to the foils, Moths seemed like terribly bizarre boats to sail, and strangely enough, the foiling made them palatable to many who never would have considered sailing them before. One thing to remember about the foils is that they are not the easiest thing to implement. The development that has gone on in the class to make a foiling Moth available as a delivered package is quite remarkable considering how technical a piece of kit you are talking about. If builders, sailors and organizers within the class were able to make the foiling package something that anyone with the $$$ could buy if they wanted, then I think it is completely within the ballpark to think that someone could also offer a standard wing package. These aren't exactly cheap dinghies to get into in the first place, so saying that everyone will be priced out is nonsense. I am priced out at the moment with the status quo!

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Hey Object 2 guys,

 

Your innovations are putting Canadian design and production on the world sailing stage for all to see and admire. Kudos!

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Rossi, Paterson, Bora etc.

Nice wing.

Tools, time & technique all show up in the end.

I only have the pieces of a foiling moth that Dave started and hasn't gotten around to finishing.

Frankly, while all of it is pretty straight forward, buying the mast and sail were going to be the biggest cost items, and the ones that were going to gag us.

On the other hand we can and do build wings ourselves and it will cost us less to do so.

I recognize that we are not AMAC's the usual Moth customer.

 

Things change. 10 years ago we were always told that C Cats were too big and expensive. Now we are told that a 72 foot wing sail catamaran is the "cheap" option.

 

The Moth class has developed the first truly practical sailing hydrofoil. Perhaps they are uniquely positioned to do the same thing for the wing sail.

 

Keep the faith!

SHC

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Seems that logistics are the biggest thing holding wings back, and when you are talking about a 20ft Moth wing rather than a 43ft C-Class wing, the logistics get a whole lot easier.

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Anyone else get the impression that Bora, Steve, and some of the other mothies and C Class guyz will be picked up by an AC team... cool.gif

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I got a hundy on Blunted going to BMWO...........;)

 

Safe bet...

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I figure I should "weigh" in on the weight issue. I bought a moth at the start of the year, knowing full well that i was out of weight range for the boat. 105kg's is almost out of range for any 11' dinghy!

 

regardless i spent a lot of time getting my boat fitness up playing around in the moth and capsizing a lot, until my muscle response to the movements that were required to keep the boat upright was refined. Its still not there, but I can have a nice afternoon of straight line foiling at the moment, and my weight is still approx 100kg. Corners, well thats the next phase of my training!

 

The Moth will fly with a big helm, and to be honest when I have had the boat going well i've not been losing out too much on the lighter guys I sail with. I can generate a lot of righting moment when I'm out on the wing bars, and the apparent wind sailing loves this.

 

getting on the foils does take longer in light winds, but i knew that when i bought in. But as i have been told, the guys with the right technique will fly before those without, so its just practice and technique...

 

Please don't discount buying a moth because you are a bigger sailor. The fact that you will foil a little later is not worth missing out on the joy of foiling once you get up and flying.

 

And to be honest for 99.99% of us, just competing at a worlds is satisfying enough, especially when there are now full time professionals and olympic sailors at the pointy end who can and probably are sailing 7 days a week.

 

rgds

 

SW

 

EDIT: having said all that the sketch book is filling up with notes on wing design and construction at the moment i agree that it could provide a heavier sailor with a wider competitive wind range

 

I think your spot on here. Untill you can go around corners, both up wind and down, weight wont really be so much of an issue in being competitive. The ranges from Dubai if I remember correctly were Si Payne at 67kgs, Amac at 78Kgs and Bora at 83Kgs. No one from the super heavy weight division there but alreay a broader range than you would get in say the Lasers. If teh wing makes foiling easier in the marginal stuff be prepared to see heavy sailors to the for!

 

Anyone else get the impression that Bora, Steve, and some of the other mothies and C Class guyz will be picked up by an AC team... cool.gif

 

 

Yup!

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I got a hundy on Blunted going to BMWO...........;)

 

Safe bet...

I will lay you whatever odds you want that Blunted doesn't go to BMWO.

 

Adam May has already done 1 AC and was employed by TO as coach and wingman. I would guess he is already on various "hit lists".

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I got a hundy on Blunted going to BMWO...........;)

 

Safe bet...

I will lay you whatever odds you want that Blunted doesn't go to BMWO.

 

Adam May has already done 1 AC and was employed by TO as coach and wingman. I would guess he is already on various "hit lists".

 

Sorry, spelling error......I meant Hyundai. The winner can pay to have it shipped where ever. :ph34r:

 

post-27731-034058100 1287105845_thumb.jpg

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So does anyone happen to know an easy way of getting in touch with Object2 skiff works - clearly if Bora's wing is largely a section of C-cat rig, they have the tooling available to build more of these things... people want to know what it would take to get one made.

 

Congratulations, Bora, on the launch of your Moth wing.

 

To answer people's questions about O2 building Moth wings for other customers:

 

Bora's wing is very exciting, but I think it's important to spend some time to make sure that we're all happy with how things work before we run off building lots of these things. Among other things, we need to know if it is fast, and if it holds together. I think that through the upcoming world's O2 will be interested in learning with and from Bora about how wings work out on Moths. We could not ask for a better partner to work with to learn about the application of wings on Moths.

 

Assuming the experament is a success, and the class is interested, then Object 2 will consider building wings or wing kits for Moths. We think kits are a good way to go because we believe Mothies are generally pretty handy people and home assembly could potentially reduce the cost of the finished wing by a significant amount.

 

Fredo

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The Moth class has developed the first truly practical sailing hydrofoil. Perhaps they are uniquely positioned to do the same thing for the wing sail.

Here's hoping. The challenges are:

 

  • Speed - are they faster than a pocket luff or winged soft sail? It seems very likely that they will be, but on balance that may not be enough
  • Transportability - they should be able to be knocked down to say 3 pieces. Moth masts moved to 2 pieces unnoticed, it just happened, probably because it was much easier for shipping production boats.
  • Durability - the wing has to be tough enough to survive being stuck in at +20kn, often. Otherwise the first mark of the 2009 Dubai nationals could have been the end of the regatta of a few top contenders

Wing sails look fantastic on these boats, it's a natural fit. If any class is set to overcome the challenge, it's the Moth.

 

 

--

Rob

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So does anyone happen to know an easy way of getting in touch with Object2 skiff works - clearly if Bora's wing is largely a section of C-cat rig, they have the tooling available to build more of these things... people want to know what it would take to get one made.

 

Congratulations, Bora, on the launch of your Moth wing.

 

To answer people's questions about O2 building Moth wings for other customers:

 

Bora's wing is very exciting, but I think it's important to spend some time to make sure that we're all happy with how things work before we run off building lots of these things. Among other things, we need to know if it is fast, and if it holds together. I think that through the upcoming world's O2 will be interested in learning with and from Bora about how wings work out on Moths. We could not ask for a better partner to work with to learn about the application of wings on Moths.

 

Assuming the experament is a success, and the class is interested, then Object 2 will consider building wings or wing kits for Moths. We think kits are a good way to go because we believe Mothies are generally pretty handy people and home assembly could potentially reduce the cost of the finished wing by a significant amount.

 

Fredo

 

I think the wing kit idea is a great way to go, especially if it is cheaper than the current rigs.

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So does anyone happen to know an easy way of getting in touch with Object2 skiff works - clearly if Bora's wing is largely a section of C-cat rig, they have the tooling available to build more of these things... people want to know what it would take to get one made.

 

Congratulations, Bora, on the launch of your Moth wing.

 

To answer people's questions about O2 building Moth wings for other customers:

 

Bora's wing is very exciting, but I think it's important to spend some time to make sure that we're all happy with how things work before we run off building lots of these things. Among other things, we need to know if it is fast, and if it holds together. I think that through the upcoming world's O2 will be interested in learning with and from Bora about how wings work out on Moths. We could not ask for a better partner to work with to learn about the application of wings on Moths.

 

Assuming the experament is a success, and the class is interested, then Object 2 will consider building wings or wing kits for Moths. We think kits are a good way to go because we believe Mothies are generally pretty handy people and home assembly could potentially reduce the cost of the finished wing by a significant amount.

 

Fredo

 

Count me in!

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So does anyone happen to know an easy way of getting in touch with Object2 skiff works - clearly if Bora's wing is largely a section of C-cat rig, they have the tooling available to build more of these things... people want to know what it would take to get one made.

 

Congratulations, Bora, on the launch of your Moth wing.

 

To answer people's questions about O2 building Moth wings for other customers:

 

Bora's wing is very exciting, but I think it's important to spend some time to make sure that we're all happy with how things work before we run off building lots of these things. Among other things, we need to know if it is fast, and if it holds together. I think that through the upcoming world's O2 will be interested in learning with and from Bora about how wings work out on Moths. We could not ask for a better partner to work with to learn about the application of wings on Moths.

 

Assuming the experament is a success, and the class is interested, then Object 2 will consider building wings or wing kits for Moths. We think kits are a good way to go because we believe Mothies are generally pretty handy people and home assembly could potentially reduce the cost of the finished wing by a significant amount.

 

Fredo

 

Count me in!

 

 

+1 !!!!!!!!

 

 

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don't know much about moths and their current/past setups, but has any body tried using an old A cat mast with a bolt rope?

surely that'd be a lot cheaper compared to the current pocket luff sails with similar shape but better entry too?

 

How would it compare to the wing sail, if it would get close at all?

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Most people who have tried a bolt rope sail on a rotating wing type mast (in common use in AUS in NS14 dinghy) find that the mast needs to be rotated manually each tack and gybe because the vang and leach loads tend to lock it hard out one way or the other. In a moth you really are very busy trimming and ballancing through each manouvre and the extra complication has usually been found to be too much. (on two handed boats is much less of a hassle)

 

Also the rig depowers severely when the mast is rotated the wrong way and the power comes back on suddenly when the mast spanner is pushed through to the leeward side, so that unless the moth sailor is prepared to move instantly that the rotation rope is pulled (and pulled quite hard) then he also needs to sheet off to balance the boat. Basically it just gets too complicated and prone to disaster.

 

The wing rig however tacks itself as there are no vang and leach loads at all. I think this is why the CCats adopted wings so early, becasue they had trouble in the 1960s obtaining cloth good enough to hold leach tension and sail shape under the extreme loads needed for a powerful 14ft wide boat. Wings made for lighter platforms as well once those sheet loads were gone.

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...has any body tried using an old A cat mast with a bolt rope?

An A class mast section would probably be too heavy, current Moth masts of 5.4m weigh less than 2.5kg.

 

The Whisper Moth project has a wing mast and bolt rope sail (and a very light ply hull). It missed the last Aust Nats in Perth, last I heard it was planned to be at Belmont in January. I'm sure there are others being developed too.

 

<URL: http://compositecomp...ly-sailing.html >

 

--

Rob

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yeah, sorry didn't mean an actual A cat mast, i just mean't similar as per shape etc.

That's interesting that they freeze up, didn't think about that, but i can understand with the loads needed, when it blocks up it'd really destroy the flow..

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Hey you moth guys you'll get a kick out of this. My mother who is in her mid 60's was a big water skier for many years and now days really likes racing on our U20. She's a science teacher and always into the new and cool stuff. I showed her the Cascade Locks moth video. She was floored and wants a moth now! HA HA.

 

Some of those good shots of the crew getting flung off the wing she laughed and said someone needs some velcro on their ass. Got me thinking a little. She might actually be onto something. Little velcro on your ass and a strip on the outer edge of the wing would give you guys a little grip once your out on the wing maybe keep you onboard LOL.

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You first.

 

Hey you moth guys you'll get a kick out of this. My mother who is in her mid 60's was a big water skier for many years and now days really likes racing on our U20. She's a science teacher and always into the new and cool stuff. I showed her the Cascade Locks moth video. She was floored and wants a moth now! HA HA.

 

Some of those good shots of the crew getting flung off the wing she laughed and said someone needs some velcro on their ass. Got me thinking a little. She might actually be onto something. Little velcro on your ass and a strip on the outer edge of the wing would give you guys a little grip once your out on the wing maybe keep you onboard LOL.

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...has any body tried using an old A cat mast with a bolt rope?

An A class mast section would probably be too heavy, current Moth masts of 5.4m weigh less than 2.5kg.

 

The Whisper Moth project has a wing mast and bolt rope sail (and a very light ply hull). It missed the last Aust Nats in Perth, last I heard it was planned to be at Belmont in January. I'm sure there are others being developed too.

 

<URL: http://compositecomp...ly-sailing.html >

 

--

Rob

 

Recent theory does seem to say that a thinner section is better at lower Reynolds numbers....

 

P

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Some of those good shots of the crew getting flung off the wing she laughed and said someone needs some velcro on their ass. Got me thinking a little. She might actually be onto something. Little velcro on your ass and a strip on the outer edge of the wing would give you guys a little grip once your out on the wing maybe keep you onboard LOL.

 

You'll find that you're less likely to do damage if you 'get off'

 

Letting a 30kg boat come to rest by itself is a lot safer than forcing 110kg of boat to shag dive at 20+kts with the pilot still aboard.

 

Exit technique is a good skill in moth sailing - you soon learn when to eject!

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Some of those good shots of the crew getting flung off the wing she laughed and said someone needs some velcro on their ass. Got me thinking a little. She might actually be onto something. Little velcro on your ass and a strip on the outer edge of the wing would give you guys a little grip once your out on the wing maybe keep you onboard LOL.

 

You'll find that you're less likely to do damage if you 'get off'

 

Letting a 30kg boat come to rest by itself is a lot safer than forcing 110kg of boat to shag dive at 20+kts with the pilot still aboard.

 

Exit technique is a good skill in moth sailing - you soon learn when to eject!

 

And, unfortunately you only learn this after the first time you don't eject...

 

IMG_0423.jpg

 

SW

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Some of those good shots of the crew getting flung off the wing she laughed and said someone needs some velcro on their ass. Got me thinking a little. She might actually be onto something. Little velcro on your ass and a strip on the outer edge of the wing would give you guys a little grip once your out on the wing maybe keep you onboard LOL.

 

You'll find that you're less likely to do damage if you 'get off'

 

Letting a 30kg boat come to rest by itself is a lot safer than forcing 110kg of boat to shag dive at 20+kts with the pilot still aboard.

 

Exit technique is a good skill in moth sailing - you soon learn when to eject!

 

And, unfortunately you only learn this after the first time you don't eject...

 

IMG_0423.jpg

 

SW

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Some of those good shots of the crew getting flung off the wing she laughed and said someone needs some velcro on their ass. Got me thinking a little. She might actually be onto something. Little velcro on your ass and a strip on the outer edge of the wing would give you guys a little grip once your out on the wing maybe keep you onboard LOL.

 

You'll find that you're less likely to do damage if you 'get off'

 

Letting a 30kg boat come to rest by itself is a lot safer than forcing 110kg of boat to shag dive at 20+kts with the pilot still aboard.

 

Exit technique is a good skill in moth sailing - you soon learn when to eject!

 

And, unfortunately you only learn this after the first time you don't eject...

 

IMG_0423.jpg

 

SW

 

Phew ... the Mothcast branding remains intact ... biggrin.gif Look for the "wing" show with Adam May in the next couple of weeks ...

 

 

 

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Seaway, give Damien Smith (local NA) a call he's your resident expert on all things wing. While he is a little distracted at present he might be able to short circuit your development curve a little.

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ok can some one explain to me WHY a wingsail with what looks like (wild ass guessing here...) some where between 80 and 120 mm of chord depth ( i.e maximal cross section dimension) is going to be faster than the most recent sails with skinny 40mm (or thinner) spars in the pocket sleeve?

 

However much additional power the wing provides across the raceable wind speeds, surely as the boat approaches max foiling speed the aero drag of the "frontal section" of the wing will far exceed the drag of the "recent traditional" rig. The aero drag will rise with the square of the boat speed, so in my mind unless the wings approach the 40 mm depth they are going to be relegated to "a great idea in wind speeds between 6 and 12 knots, espcially in lumpy water."

 

The fact that a lot of the design talent on this WING is coming from Toronto/ Humber Bay area speaks volumes - Humber bay is slop and light wind most of the summer.

 

As an aside, are there any pictures out there of the recent Oracle AC boat in > 20 knots actual breeze? How about with seas? Just asking because of the AC team speculation in the threads above.

 

Belmont is likely to be a lightish affair ( see http://perverted-moth.blogspot.com/2010/10/weather-at-belmont.html ), has this class morphed into a "build for one regatta site" community?

 

Would wing sails with sub 40mm of chord depth be feasible?

Will wings in the designed wind speed offer better start line acceleration - necessary in big fleets which Belmont will be?

Will the advantage be so great that "team starts" ( one guy goes in to start, makes hole and jams up fleet for the teammate with the jersey today) will be unnecessary?

 

Frankly I'd like to see someone with a two year old boat, and an 8 month old sail place in the top 5.

 

..NW

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Now what, the short answer is the wings are fat for the same reason the wings a fatter on a Cessna than they were on the Kitty Hawk. Its all about attached flow and aerodynamics.

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Now what, the short answer is the wings are fat for the same reason the wings a fatter on a Cessna than they were on the Kitty Hawk. Its all about attached flow and aerodynamics.

 

And the ratios of engine power and top speeds for those two aircraft was what?

 

"kittyhawk" :

The cast aluminum block and crankcase weighed 152 pounds (68.9 kg) and were produced at either Miami Brass Foundry or the Buckeye Iron and Brass Works, near Dayton, Ohio. The Wrights needed an engine with at least 8 horsepower (6.0 kW). The engine that Taylor built produced 12.

 

"cessna 170":

In late 1948 Cessna began sales of the 170, with metal fuselage and tail and fabric covered wings. These earliest 170s were four-seat versions of the popular 140 with a more powerful 145 hp (108 kW) Continental O-300 and larger fuel tanks. Like the 140, they were constructed of metal with fabric-covered wings supported by a "V" strut.

 

"Cessna 319":

Also flown in 1953 was the model 319, a Cessna 170A equipped with a Continental 225 hp (168 kW) powerplant and larger flaps along with the boundary layer control.

 

My point is drag related. I think the two sail form factors will generate about the same amount of power ( and the wing not exponentially more) for the same wind speed. The Wing's drag though is surely exponentially higher at higher wind and boat speeds.

 

The wing might generate more lift at lower windspeeds, but in extremis not yield a benefit.

 

You haven't explained WHY the wing is going to work better or when?

 

 

..nw

 

late edit: sources are wikipedia for quotes on engine size

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ok can some one explain to me WHY a wingsail with what looks like (wild ass guessing here...) some where between 80 and 120 mm of chord depth ( i.e maximal cross section dimension) is going to be faster than the most recent sails with skinny 40mm (or thinner) spars in the pocket sleeve?

 

However much additional power the wing provides across the raceable wind speeds, surely as the boat approaches max foiling speed the aero drag of the "frontal section" of the wing will far exceed the drag of the "recent traditional" rig. The aero drag will rise with the square of the boat speed, so in my mind unless the wings approach the 40 mm depth they are going to be relegated to "a great idea in wind speeds between 6 and 12 knots, espcially in lumpy water."

 

Frankly I'd like to see someone with a two year old boat, and an 8 month old sail place in the top 5.

 

..NW

 

shaped.gif

 

cute little pic (attributed to nasa) showing drag coefficients for a foil vs other shapes, including a circle (which is a fair assumption about a moth mast, ignoring the luff sleeve). note that reynolds numbers and areas are equivalent, but the drag coefficient is between 2x and 10x less for the foil. that means the drag is lower, all else being equal. if, as you say, the wing's thickness must be increased to generate the required lift (ie thicker than a current mast), so be it. at the end of the day, it can be at the worst twice as thick before it matches a circular mast (still ignoring all drag generated by the sails).

 

if you're looking for hard evidence of the absolute performance benefits of wing sails, look at the c-class cats. no wing, no play.

 

are wings suitable to all classes? no. are they suitable to the moth? the fast guys are looking at it, so we'll find out soon enough.

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Some of those good shots of the crew getting flung off the wing she laughed and said someone needs some velcro on their ass. Got me thinking a little. She might actually be onto something. Little velcro on your ass and a strip on the outer edge of the wing would give you guys a little grip once your out on the wing maybe keep you onboard LOL.

 

You'll find that you're less likely to do damage if you 'get off'

 

Letting a 30kg boat come to rest by itself is a lot safer than forcing 110kg of boat to shag dive at 20+kts with the pilot still aboard.

 

Exit technique is a good skill in moth sailing - you soon learn when to eject!

 

And, unfortunately you only learn this after the first time you don't eject...

 

IMG_0423.jpg

 

SW

 

Phew ... the Mothcast branding remains intact ... biggrin.gif Look for the "wing" show with Adam May in the next couple of weeks ...

 

No worries mate. I took off the other stickers on the boat, but the Mothcast ones remained because I feel its worth supporting (Not that Harken and Zhik aren't worth supporting, but you only put stickers on your boat when you get free stuff, right?). I made my final decision to buy a moth on a Perth to Melbourne flight when I listened to every Mothcast produced in a row...

 

Scarecrow, I have bumped in Damien at times in the past (I am also a NA). Will chase him up.

 

Cheers

 

SW

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Now what, the short answer is the wings are fat for the same reason the wings a fatter on a Cessna than they were on the Kitty Hawk. Its all about attached flow and aerodynamics.

 

And the ratios of engine power and top speeds for those two aircraft was what?

 

After a further bit of googling ...

 

The "kitty hawk" had 12 hp and a flight speed of about 33 mph (30 knots) This is based on 2.75 miles in 5 minutes and change in flight number 82. (0.13 hp/kt)

 

Mid 60's cessnas ( the 172n) with 160 hp did 112 knots. (1.35 hp/kt)

 

an order of magnitude more hp needed. the difference is drag being over come.

 

As a side note it seems the "kitty hawk" was the venue, not the aircraft name; it was called the "Flyer".

 

Their design objective was : an 8-horsepower engine generating 90 pounds of thrust to achieve a minimum airspeed of 23 miles per hour. basically they were sticking an engine in a glider to make a "Flyer".

 

Interesting to compare this with Moth tank tests where foil drag is about 15 lbs, and total aero drag rising to 30 lbs at 20 knots based on a quick review of http://www.moth-sailing.org/download/CSYSPaperFeb09.pdf ( figure 16 and 32). So about 45 lbs of thrust is the minimum design objective for a moth.

 

...NW

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I think Bill Hansen (?) was pointing out a while ago that some of the small diameter windsurfing mast/sail combos weren't as effective as fatter mast/sail combos because the turn of the flow around the skinnier masts was more turbulent because the radius was less, and the flow let go sooner, and didn't reattach as soon as the flow around a fatter mast which had a bigger diameter, and therefore not such a tight turn for the flow to hold on to, which meant that there was more laminar flow on the fat mast, and the reattached turbulent flow was reattached to the sail sooner, smaller, and smoother.

 

Under re 100,000- 200,000 or so thinner and flatter seems to be better. And if a Moth sail has a chord of say 6 feet, that would give you a re of 50,400 for 1 K of wind, so you would pass re 200,000 at 4K, and re 300,000 at 6 K, so fatter (3d, not 2d sails) would be better, at least in this example.

 

just sayin'.....

 

P

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The fact that a lot of the design talent on this WING is coming from Toronto/ Humber Bay area speaks volumes - Humber bay is slop and light wind most of the summer.

 

I presume that you mean that we are pretty clueless about sailing in wind over four knots. Maybe. I'll wait for the results from Belmont to show us how dumb we are.

 

As an aside, your logic on the Wright Flyer vs. the Cessna 170 would indicate that the guys flying the human powered planes (1HP?) are pretty dumb too, to be choosing a double sided wing. Keep in mind that hollow wings produce more drag than single sided wings. By the way, good luck with your cheering for the 8 month old sail.

 

Cheers,

Fredo

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Hey now Fredo, remember that Bora won Oregon Worlds with a year-old KA sail. Not sure that's gonna...umm...fly this time ;)

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Just a quick one. No one seems to be mentioning gust response. Does it matter.... in the 'old days' it did. and wing masts on moths were poo poo'ed cause of a lack of it, talk of a 'barn door' approach when a gust hit etc etc.

So I'm reakoning that a wing sail has little gust response (unless someone's really cunning with their lamiante and built in off axis plies to 'relax' the wing section when under load) does it matter - doeas anyone care?

PS: I saw that video of dalton's leacch opening up like a cheap hooker under gusts, waves, boom movement - I'm guessing a wing sail won't be doing that!... comments?

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You could do a segmented wing, kind of a vertical version of this:

 

http://www.eng.auburn.edu/organizations/AIAA/files/papers/2009/masters/Welstead_2009.pdf

 

scroll down a few pages on the doc and you'll see a pic of the concept

 

You might be able to use shock chords to control max deflection of each section, so that the lower section(s) would still be powered up, and the higher sections would be feathering- maybe 3 sections? You could really tailor the different sections to 1) flow twist from the wind gradient and 2) induced twist from planform effects, and 3) speed differences in wind flow because of the gradient.

 

P

 

here is a nice article on wind gradient-

 

http://www.onemetre.net/design/Gradient/Gradient.htm

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You can achieve a limited amount of gust responce by having some stretch in your aft element upper control lines. The challange is getting the right amount.

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Cheese,

 

As the ribs are pretty much free to rotate down low and the upper parts of the mast are only held by control lines and the torsional 'spring' in the leading edge sections (which isn't much), I think you'll find that the ability to twist under gust loads is more that first meets the eye. Yes, probably not quite as able to blade open as the current rigs, but I don't see that as so much of a problem...

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The mythical gust response is the response of an elastic rig to changes in power or righting moment, not wind. If he righting moment is constant like in a properly sailed dinghy sailed bolt upright then the rig can not bend due to gusts because there is no extra load applied by hiking. The wind can not increase loads on a rig unless it is opposed by an invcrease in righting power from the boat and crew.

A ballasted boat which heals in a gust increases its righting moment and hence can increase the loads on the rig and hence have some gust reponse. A badly sailed wide dinghy will show some rig flex if alloed to heal and load up, but will go slower anyway.

A moth which has maximum righting moment when healed to windward (because the boat's mass is to windward of the foil lift) and less when up right