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So this is what happens when somebody has an idea, and somebody else doesn't think it is such a good one. Apparently back in 2002 at the Annapolis Boat Show, Flying Scot Boats was approached by a Chinese builder to see if they would sell a set of tooling to establish the class in China. Royalties to FS Boats and the FS Class were to be included. They declined. So Red Dragon Boats, who have built a number of power and sail boats over the years in China, and are also builders of the S-20, built the D5.8, which was clearly based on the FS. Some would say a rip off. It did incorporate some changes, including deck non-skid and modernized centerboard uphaul system, and it sold well, but...

 

Now, in an effort to build an affordable "do-everything" boat for emerging markets with higher performance, the D5.9 is ready to roll. So copy or not, improvements or not, export price is USD $10,000 complete ready-to-sail. It is also available for fleet purchases to sailing schools and yacht clubs worldwide and sales are direct from the Red Dragon factory in Xiamen, China. Dealer inquiries will apparently not be considered as at 10k a pop, they have pared margins to the bone.

 

So is this a great offering and opportunity for sailors, or is it a classic Chinese copy/rip off? We know David Winter at Red Dragon and we lean very much toward the former. What do you think?

 

d 59 2_sml.jpg

 

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Im working in a chinese yard. They obviously wanted to do something of the sort and, trust me, they could have easily just gone ahead and copied it. However they tried to go the legit route and buy out the technology but the other party weren't interested.

 

So they went ahead and did what they originally wanted to do and good on em for doing it alone with the limited resources we have in China.

 

If everyone else doesn't like it and can't compete then tough shit, this is the new world and it's about business.

 

This being said, if aspects of the boat infringe directly on copyrights of the other then the other party has the right to take legal action or blow the whistle on them so people can stay away. This boat isn't exactly rocket science so probably don't have a legal leg to stand on...

 

One more thing to think about is that historically foreign brands have much more sway in the marketing size of things. No matter how how close a Chinese brand is to a foreign one they have mountains to climb before they can establish their name and their high quality reputation.

 

Well done for getting this in the water! Do the girls come with the $10 000 package?? :)

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we dont need another dog.

So this is what happens when somebody has an idea, and somebody else doesn't think it is such a good one. Apparently back in 2002 at the Annapolis Boat Show, Flying Scot Boats was approached by a Chinese builder to see if they would sell a set of tooling to establish the class in China. Royalties to FS Boats and the FS Class were to be included. They declined. So Red Dragon Boats, who have built a number of power and sail boats over the years in China, and are also builders of the S-20, built the D5.8, which was clearly based on the FS. Some would say a rip off. It did incorporate some changes, including deck non-skid and modernized centerboard uphaul system, and it sold well, but...

 

Now, in an effort to build an affordable "do-everything" boat for emerging markets with higher performance, the D5.9 is ready to roll. So copy or not, improvements or not, export price is USD $10,000 complete ready-to-sail. It is also available for fleet purchases to sailing schools and yacht clubs worldwide and sales are direct from the Red Dragon factory in Xiamen, China. Dealer inquiries will apparently not be considered as at 10k a pop, they have pared margins to the bone.

 

So is this a great offering and opportunity for sailors, or is it a classic Chinese copy/rip off? We know David Winter at Red Dragon and we lean very much toward the former. What do you think?

 

we dont need another dog.

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I wish there could be a cheap builder for all small OD boats.

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"Hey, we tried to make a deal, the other party didn't want to so we went ahead and ripped them off. Its business"

 

"Hey, mind if I buy your car? No deal? OK, I'm driving off with it anyway. Its business."

 

The only comforting aspect is that the Chinese yards have such a well earned reputation for turning out POS boats that the Copycat 9.5 will probably "unsell itself." Check out the post by the guy who bought a Scandanavian Cruiser 20.

 

Hey, the entrepreneur might be a great guy. But a diploma from the Mr Clean School of Ethics only gets you so far. Hey, so long as its cheap everything's cool.

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From the photo's looks like they replace jib cleats with two Chinese women !!! Not thinking of where to cleat rope jokes at all

 

The idea of stealing doesn't seem to worry the chinese

 

chinacars.jpg

 

Rip Offs

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Does it have wire halyards?

 

 

 

I wish they would start building some cheap laser and opti's next.

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One more industry the US will give away in the name of profit for the ruling class. Hope you have fun in your boat built by 12 year old uneducated slave labor. Yeah, I know this company may not use child labor but supporting companies in a country that does is just as bad. Hope the bottom paint does not contain lead. And oh, by the way, where will the Chinese actually sail once the rivers, lakes and even oceans are too polluted by toxic dumping? Who cares as long as we can get a boat to sail here for next to nothing. This is the same old story that seemingly will never end. Guess its our fault for wanting the lowest possible cost ignoring the consequences.

 

Keep buying Chinese products and maybe your job will be next to go!

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It a rip off. It's also know what boat number was sold to them that they used to make the copy.

 

It's also FlyingScot class and builder showing it stuppidy for not wanting to lic's them to build.

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probably get a quality Rolex to go with your new boat!!

 

Chinese can built what they want, I won't buy the POS. Bad enough I have to buy all their other junk.

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supporting an oppressive, backward oligarchy is a good thing?

 

wrong.

 

If I could make it through life without buying anything made in China, I would.

 

"Hey we like your product. We want to offer you a great deal to make the same thing a lot cheaper than you possibly could because of your worker and environmental protection laws. If you don't accept our $5 offer we'll do it anyway."

Business is business? Can't have it both ways. You like the protection that the U.S. system offers you, and then crap on it by buying from a country that does the twisted stuff China does? Seems pretty demented.

 

There's a reason Chinese products are cheaper. And it ain't because the Chinese are inherently better at manufacturing.

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There's a reason Chinese products are cheaper. And it ain't because the Chinese are inherently better at manufacturing.

 

 

 

Bravo!

 

 

my sense is that most FT owners are pretty happy with their boats, in spite of a few issues of the sort that are not uncommon on new boats no matter where they are built.

 

also, if the history other low-priced manufacturing countries tells us anything, it is that the relatively low standard of some of the current products is unlikely to stay that way.

 

china has a few billion people who want a more comfortable life, and if they have to figure out a way to increase the quality of their products, while maintaining low prices, my bet is that they will manage it.

 

they also have a growing middle class, with the disposable income for boats right there in china - a growing portion of these boats will be built for local buyers.

 

so, here do you think their boat building industry will be in, say, 10 years?

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"Hey, we tried to make a deal, the other party didn't want to so we went ahead and ripped them off. Its business"

 

"Hey, mind if I buy your car? No deal? OK, I'm driving off with it anyway. Its business."

 

The only comforting aspect is that the Chinese yards have such a well earned reputation for turning out POS boats that the Copycat 9.5 will probably "unsell itself." Check out the post by the guy who bought a Scandanavian Cruiser 20.

 

Hey, the entrepreneur might be a great guy. But a diploma from the Mr Clean School of Ethics only gets you so far. Hey, so long as its cheap everything's cool.

 

 

LLO! That ist funist thing.

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This is pretty classic. An opportunity was offered to have the Flying Scot be a force in driving the Chinese one design sailing movement. Flying Scot declined. Unless we are privy to the actual offers and possible back and forth, we do not know if it was a financial issue or a tactical one.

 

So then, the company purchased a Flying Scott and used it as the basis for their own Flying Scot like one design. Unless we have both a Flying Scott and this D5.8 side by side for comparison, we do not know how much or how little they copied the Flying Scott or created themselves. Let's face it, the Flying Scott is a very old design that may or may not actually be protected. And one that has been copied in spirit at least many times in the past.

 

What the Chinese company wanted to use was the name more than anything else. As they were apparently successful in their home market without the name, it seems like Flying Scot made a tactical error, assuming the financial issues could have been worked out.

 

Now this similar boat is being offered to the US market for a low price. It may hurt companies like American Sail, but I doubt it will do anything to the sales of Flying Scots as it will not be a Flying Scott and so will not be eligible for one design, which I suspect is the only reason people are still buying new Flying Scots.

 

As far as buying a Chinese product like this, if anyone can figure out how to buy an all American product, let me know. It seems everything we buy is somehow touched by a foreign product in some fashion. It is the result of living in a global economy.

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It a rip off. It's also know what boat number was sold to them that they used to make the copy.

 

It's also FlyingScot class and builder showing it stuppidy for not wanting to lic's them to build.

 

 

The builder was nuts not to participate. I don't think there is anything they can do legally either.

 

The builder should have simply said - here, build all my boats, and I am the exclusive NA channel. Oh yah, plus royalties on the entire production.

 

Is it a nicer boat to boot? I bet it is.

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The builder is an American so why blame the Chinese?

 

An American who decided that chinese labor and materials were needed to build an american design that he basically ripped off? You're right, we shouldn't blame the chinese, we should blame the ex-pat who is stealing jobs from americans, stealing IP from america, and who will be pumping even more money into the chinese economy when it's the us economy that needs the influx.

 

you can buy a flying scot with trailer, sails, and dues paid to the flying scot association for $16,500.

 

As for the comment about the flying tiger, what number are they up to? I think they're on the second owner of the company. I'm not saying the owners aren't satisfied with their purchase, but there are a whole lot more new boat owners who *didn't* buy an FT10, or 7.5.

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It a rip off. It's also know what boat number was sold to them that they used to make the copy.

 

It's also FlyingScot class and builder showing it stuppidy for not wanting to lic's them to build.

 

 

The builder was nuts not to participate. I don't think there is anything they can do legally either.

 

The builder should have simply said - here, build all my boats, and I am the exclusive NA channel. Oh yah, plus royalties on the entire production.

 

Is it a nicer boat to boot? I bet it is.

This is one side of the story. Why did the US builder not accept the deal?

  • They could not come to terms on license fees?
  • The US builder did not believe that the boat would be within class tolerances?
  • The US builder did not believe the offer was in good faith and that they would loose control of the quality?
  • The US builder was simply protecting market share?

Looking at the picture, the boat is a blatant rip off. The US builder should contact their Congressman and Senators and explain the situation and have a tarrif placed on any that are imported. Even if the company rejected the deal to protect market share it does not give the Chinese the option to steal a design. They could have made a similar dimensioned boat with stability and the characteristics that make the Scot appealing, instead they chose to cheat and they should be punished for it by denying the US market to them.

 

Will Museler

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I love seeing so many people say it's the builder/Flying Scot's fault.

 

The Chinese are notorious for getting a license to build something there for less only to turn around and start building in violation of the license, for cheaper, competing with the people who's IP they stole.

 

It's not FS's fault for wanting to avoid helping this company do what they did; it would have been stupid not to see the writing on the wall that licensing the Chinese build would have spelled out. I also applaud them at least trying to keep some jobs on this side of the world.

 

Profit margins do not make decisions ethical, no matter how great.

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When did ripping off someone cease to be stealing?

 

Would we feel the same way if the boat in question was a J24, a Viper 640, a Sydney 38? The boat is clearly an updated Flying Scott.

 

Red Dragon should be ashamed.

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it is just sad. Period. To everyone who thinks it is just "business" and that Flying Scot got what they deserved, I can only wish that you never have to face such extortion. Are you seriously insane enough to believe they would have profited by the transaction? Do you really think accurate production records would have been kept, royalties paid, warranties honored? Any country willing to poison its own children (remember the baby formula) has no scruples about ANYTHING! International patent & copyright law developed as a reasonable means to both protect genius, thus encouraging innovation, and limit (pricing) abuses, also thus encouraging innovation. China Inc. just committed theft. I feel badly for the folks at FS.

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As far as ripping designs from people see post number 16 in This thread by Bob Perry about where one of his colleagues gets his new boat designs.

 

It's just too easy to change a tiny detail to make a new original design.

BUT also this boat can't really damage the Flying Scott as it'll never

Be enter-able into the class.

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I learned to sail on the Flying Scot and love the boat no matter how much of a pig it is.

 

No matter how many improvements and how much cheaper, this is still a rip-off.

 

I don't see how the Flying Scot association could win in this scenario. If they sold tooling and took liscencing fees, they would still be undercut on their production / distribution network. Only if the product was restricted to certain markets could it have worked.

 

With the improvements and lower price, this is clearly a better value than a Scot ... what does it rate?

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From the photo's looks like they replace jib cleats with two Chinese women !!! Not thinking of where to cleat rope jokes at all

 

The idea of stealing doesn't seem to worry the chinese

 

chinacars.jpg

 

Rip Offs

 

China has joined the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), so these kinds of copies should soon stop. The treaty requires that they enforce international patents, trademarks and copyrights. But, policing several billion people is probably not a simple job.

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One more industry the US will give away in the name of profit for the ruling class. Hope you have fun in your boat built by 12 year old uneducated slave labor. Yeah, I know this company may not use child labor but supporting companies in a country that does is just as bad. Hope the bottom paint does not contain lead. And oh, by the way, where will the Chinese actually sail once the rivers, lakes and even oceans are too polluted by toxic dumping? Who cares as long as we can get a boat to sail here for next to nothing. This is the same old story that seemingly will never end. Guess its our fault for wanting the lowest possible cost ignoring the consequences.

 

Keep buying Chinese products and maybe your job will be next to go!

 

The Chinese are just doing the same thing that America did 100 years ago or so, and what Great Britain did earlier too. People have been copying each other for centuries. Some people call it "inspiration" and "cross cultural development" and others call it "ripoff" and other things. Hell, the Japanese did this for decades and no one complained.

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One more industry the US will give away in the name of profit for the ruling class. Hope you have fun in your boat built by 12 year old uneducated slave labor. Yeah, I know this company may not use child labor but supporting companies in a country that does is just as bad. Hope the bottom paint does not contain lead. And oh, by the way, where will the Chinese actually sail once the rivers, lakes and even oceans are too polluted by toxic dumping? Who cares as long as we can get a boat to sail here for next to nothing. This is the same old story that seemingly will never end. Guess its our fault for wanting the lowest possible cost ignoring the consequences.

 

Keep buying Chinese products and maybe your job will be next to go!

 

The Chinese are just doing the same thing that America did 100 years ago or so, and what Great Britain did earlier too. People have been copying each other for centuries. Some people call it "inspiration" and "cross cultural development" and others call it "ripoff" and other things. Hell, the Japanese did this for decades and no one complained.

 

Not true. the american car companies complained hugely when the japanese were buying american scrap steel and returning it to the country as "subaru" and "toyota." at a fraction of the price. I may be wrong, but I think there were trade tariffs applied to keep american car companies competitive.

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From the photo's looks like they replace jib cleats with two Chinese women !!! Not thinking of where to cleat rope jokes at all

 

The idea of stealing doesn't seem to worry the chinese

 

chinacars.jpg

 

Rip Offs

 

China has joined the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), so these kinds of copies should soon stop. The treaty requires that they enforce international patents, trademarks and copyrights. But, policing several billion people is probably not a simple job.

 

That's a joke, right? From an article Sep. 28 2010:

 

"As for other challenges posed by China, such as its practice of demanding the intellectual property of foreign companies in exchange for access to the market, I'm less confident about Western backbone. Last week, the Financial Times' Jamil Anderlini and Mure Dickie had an excellent feature on how Western makers of high-speed trains gave their know-how to China as part of various rail deals, only to have the Chinese, using virtually the same IP, now undercut these same companies for business around the world."

 

This practice is ingrained in the Chinese government. Being a member of WIPO isn't going to change anything any time soon.

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Copying is nothing new. China is just the current big copycat.

 

I would have to sail one to know if it is any better or worse than a Flying Scott. Though that is like saying one retard is better than the other in the special Olympics, the Flying Scott is not the most modern boat afloat.

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Having grown up sailing wooden Lightnings but also having been forced to endure years of Flying Scot exposure, I have to say the D 5.8 looks...well, it looks better to me. The idea that they moved the mainsheet from the top of the rudder to a bridle tells me they're not complete knuckleheads. That one change alone would lead me to believe they've thought some things out. Helmsmen won't be required to look like linebackers sailing this boat. The fathead main also looks like it's more better. And as far as construction goes, my father and I made enough money over several Wisconsin winters tearing up Flying Scot balsa core cockpit bottoms and rebuilding centerboard trunks to know that any improvements in materials and techniques would be good things. Of course I don't know if the D 5.8 is built better- just differently. But really- could it be a whole lot worse? I'm not slamming the class so don't get righteously indignant. The last time I heard the class didn't build the boats. Simply put, the FS is very popular and those who love it have their reasons regardless of the build quality. The fact that I still itch in my dreams and take cold showers by default from all those rebuilds is experience enough to know that the construction methods and standards were certainly lax back in the day. Better now? Couldn't say...I'm too busy rebuilding my recently rescued wooden Lightning. As far as the world economic climate and how it has affected business goes, I know my IT job is going over there sometime soon. I can't change that. And yes...I agree ripping off the Scot is definitely a bad thing. I can't do anything about that either. If the D 5.8 turns out to be a popular boat I still won't buy one. Oh sure...I could stop buying anything Chinese-made in protest. Sure I could. Tried that lately? Let me know how that works for you- if you can find some non-Chinese manufactured way of doing it!

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I avoid buying Chinese products whenever possible. I would never buy a boat made in China. This is clearly a ripoff. The Chinese are big polluters, they pay their workers crap, and they rip off ideas. Why would SA support them?? I guess for the same reason that they support Obama--stupid asses!!

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Business ethics aside........

Of all the boats they could have picked to copy, they pick the Flying Scot? That says more volumes about their business sense than any accusations of double dealing ever could. They're producing a slow, ugly boat that doesn't have the ONE thing going for it that the real Flying Scot does.....the one design class. So what if it's "only" ten grand- that's pretty steep for an ugly knockoff, when there are 5000 or so of the real thing that could be had for less money in many cases.

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This being said, if aspects of the boat infringe directly on copyrights of the other then the other party has the right to take legal action or blow the whistle on them so people can stay away. This boat isn't exactly rocket science so probably don't have a legal leg to stand on...

 

 

Well, on first look this is a design which is long past its best-before date, i'd even say it's a generic school-boat design, so anybody saying it's a rip-off would really have to show that anything was directly copied, and not simply "inspired by". I wonder why anybody would buy something as unexiting as this.

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Rip off, sure they can build what ever they want but i know of a lot of people that would never buy a piece of shit like that.

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Not true. the american car companies complained hugely when the japanese were buying american scrap steel and returning it to the country as "subaru" and "toyota." at a fraction of the price. I may be wrong, but I think there were trade tariffs applied to keep american car companies competitive.

 

Japan and the US had VERs "voluntary" export restrictions. The Japanese agreed to limit exports to the U.S. in exchange for not having tariffs placed on Japanese products. Japan was a smaller economy and could not risk that

China is too big now (both in GDP and population terms) and too strategically important to the US for us to really do anything. The Chinese paid for the last 10 years of middle eastern wars fought by the U.S. we need their money to fund our deficits they need us to buy their stuff to fuel their development.

 

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it is a bargain, something boat owners know well. It may be more expensive in purchase price to buy from your local store, boatyard or designer but in the long run it may be the smartest financial choice because you are supporting the local economy that you live and work in.

 

When I buy my next boat, if I buy new, it will be from a local builder because putting money in their pockets puts money in mine eventually as well.

 

China does not respect its own people, let alone patents, the environment or international business standards but that does not excuse EU and US business people profiting on the dismantling of the western economy. That is war profiteering, and China is practicing economic warfare that is just as much a threat as the USSR's "cold" war.

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I had occasion to look into US copyright law for hull designs a few months ago. US copyright law only protects hull designs for 5 years IIRC, and ONLY if the designer registered the design. I think Island Packet was just about the only sailboat builder to bother. There were more US powerboat builders (mostly higher volume runabout builders) that registered their designs.

 

Is it a FS knock-off? Heck yeah. But they're probably not even breaking US copyright law. If I were a club or sailing school considering Scots would I be interested in saving 35%+ and looking at these? Heck yeah. Is it going to hurt the FS class? No, not really, as they're not class legal Scots and can't race. Might provide a bit of a kick in the pants to allow some upgrades to the FS though...

 

Would I be interested in buying one personally? Hell f*ck no.

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So is this a great offering and opportunity for sailors, or is it a classic Chinese copy/rip off? We know David Winter at Red Dragon and we lean very much toward the former. What do you think?

Why is there a mass exodus of jobs from the US?

 

This. Wal-Mart mentality. It's not evil corporations who send jobs overseas, it's the consumer who decides that cheaper is better, no matter the consequences.

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Does the 'D' in the name D 5.8 stand for Douglas? If it was for Dragon, when why not RD 5.8?

 

I think there is a problem with the business plan. Why would you have a boat like that unless you were going to join the Flying Scot class? Which you can't. There are about 1000 small boat designers world-wide who could design a better boat, probably 750 of them need the business, and there must be a few of those who don't know the sad story of S&S not getting any royalties for the Lightning. (They did get a fixed fee.)

 

On the other hand, the Chinese market can probably swallow up an annual production of 50 or 100.

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When I open SA's site up I immediately go to the forums but before I clicked on the forum I looked at the front page for one half a nano second and said "What is a Flying Scot with a little fat head main doing on the front page".Yes, Its definately a rip off. For those of you that think its ok, I consider you as part of the American problem. The lowly carpet bagger who ripped off the design could have accepted "not for sale" for an answer and developed his own design.

If you think jobs and the economy are tough, have a friend take pictures of the Port of Entry yards in Seattle, Frisco, or Long Beach. With the thousand of containers (maybe hundred of thousands)coming in from China, its easy to see that the US problems are more than taxes and housing. This should be on PA.

I personally know sail boat builders, sail makers and hardware manufactures who are having to raise their prices due to raw material costs and overhead such as property & business taxes, insurance hikes and a multitude of increased costs due to political nonsense. Believe me, every manufacturer in the sailing industry would like to sell at lower costs and keep his margins the same or even still stay in business.

As long as I'm breathing there will not be a Chink knock off POS sailing at our club.

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So is this a great offering and opportunity for sailors, or is it a classic Chinese copy/rip off? We know David Winter at Red Dragon and we lean very much toward the former. What do you think?

Why is there a mass exodus of jobs from the US?

 

This. Wal-Mart mentality. It's not evil corporations who send jobs overseas, it's the consumer who decides that cheaper is better, no matter the consequences.

 

 

 

wow what a coincidence i read this today. I work for a small IT company and we have a Chinese partner who makes some specific parts for us that here in the US would make it to expensive. I picked the owner of the Chinese company up this morning from the airport. He is uber wealthy, has over 15K employees and is willing to invest hundreds of thousands in tooling to build out products and ideas. If it can be made cheaper and there is a market then who cares if the Chinese build it, not all Chinese people are bad, ruthless or communist...they have people who want to feed their families anyway they can. I should show him a Melges 24 and tell him if he can make a quality boat for 25K then he would sell a shit ton. I buy local all the time, my local restaurants, hardware, clothes etc, but at some point some purchases make sense economically to go outside of your own town/country etc.

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we dont need another dog.

So this is what happens when somebody has an idea, and somebody else doesn't think it is such a good one. Apparently back in 2002 at the Annapolis Boat Show, Flying Scot Boats was approached by a Chinese builder to see if they would sell a set of tooling to establish the class in China. Royalties to FS Boats and the FS Class were to be included. They declined. So Red Dragon Boats, who have built a number of power and sail boats over the years in China, and are also builders of the S-20, built the D5.8, which was clearly based on the FS. Some would say a rip off. It did incorporate some changes, including deck non-skid and modernized centerboard uphaul system, and it sold well, but...

 

Now, in an effort to build an affordable "do-everything" boat for emerging markets with higher performance, the D5.9 is ready to roll. So copy or not, improvements or not, export price is USD $10,000 complete ready-to-sail. It is also available for fleet purchases to sailing schools and yacht clubs worldwide and sales are direct from the Red Dragon factory in Xiamen, China. Dealer inquiries will apparently not be considered as at 10k a pop, they have pared margins to the bone.

 

So is this a great offering and opportunity for sailors, or is it a classic Chinese copy/rip off? We know David Winter at Red Dragon and we lean very much toward the former. What do you think?

 

we dont need another dog.

+1

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what a joke...

 

if its anything like the flying turd 10M, it will take a bit of time to shake out the design/build problems...

 

on the flying turd, the rudders fell off, transoms broke, keels replaced, engine bay doors fell off, shit rigging, horrible furlers, mast steps broken...

 

it was a bad joke...and the owners ended up paying a high price for their "cheap" boat...

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One more industry the US will give away in the name of profit for the ruling class. Hope you have fun in your boat built by 12 year old uneducated slave labor. Yeah, I know this company may not use child labor but supporting companies in a country that does is just as bad. Hope the bottom paint does not contain lead. And oh, by the way, where will the Chinese actually sail once the rivers, lakes and even oceans are too polluted by toxic dumping? Who cares as long as we can get a boat to sail here for next to nothing. This is the same old story that seemingly will never end. Guess its our fault for wanting the lowest possible cost ignoring the consequences.

 

Keep buying Chinese products and maybe your job will be next to go!

 

+1000. They could give a fuck less about their people/children/environment or even worse.....ours. Look at all the recalled childrens toys that contain lead and toxins made in China!!! WTF. I'm afraid to buy my one year old anything as it's pretty much ALL made in China.

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So is this a great offering and opportunity for sailors, or is it a classic Chinese copy/rip off? We know David Winter at Red Dragon and we lean very much toward the former. What do you think?

Why is there a mass exodus of jobs from the US?

 

This. Wal-Mart mentality. It's not evil corporations who send jobs overseas, it's the consumer who decides that cheaper is better, no matter the consequences.

 

US corporations have been looking for cheaper labor for decades to both increase their profits and sell a product at a more competitive price. So, yeah, it IS evil corporations trying to stay competitive and maximize shareholder profit. They are required by law to act in a way that maximizes profits for shareholders. It's the laws that are to blame, ultimately.

 

First off, this country was founded partly on a rebellion against abuse of power by corporations. Each colony was a corporation, and the heads of the business were appointed by the king. Each colony was told how to do business by the corporation with no say from them, hence the "no taxation without representation" complaint. Second, corporations are not mentioned in the founding papers of the Federal Government on purpose. The founding fathers wanted control over corporations to be as close to the people as possible, so they put the power to grant or deny corporate charters in the hands of each state legislature. Eventually, the legislatures pawned off that authority to a "state corporation commission" that now just rubber stamps an application for a corporate charter. Third, the fact that corporations were not mentioned in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights means that the founding fathers did not intend them to have any of those rights. What has happened is that corporations have bribed various officials over the last century and a half to change the laws thus giving them the right of free speech, the right against unreasonable search and seizure and other rights that were supposed to be granted only to people. They have gone even further and established in law that corporations are people under the law. The corporate law in this country is evil and makes corporations the overlords and nobility of our society. They are superhuman people with infinite lifespans and often crush adversaries when challenged in court by ordinary folks.

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...need an attorney to chime in on this one.

 

If you are referring to a copyright violation, then the copy has to be virtually identical in order for infringement to occur. So no, there is no copyright violation in this case.

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Well its not a flying scott in the OD sense. And I can't really see it selling well in the US so what are you guys all bent about?

 

The J24 had knock offs also. Probably the closest knock off was the Merrit 25 only they redesigned all the issues the J/24 had and ended up with a much better boat. It's been happening for a long time nothing new here. If quality is an issue regardless of China or others building it low quality builds tend to surface fast in the sailing world given the boats break in ways they shouldn't and people stop buying them. China had a Day Sailor knock off years ago also though that apparently never made SA News.

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Business ethics aside........

Of all the boats they could have picked to copy, they pick the Flying Scot?

... ...

 

+1

 

I'm glad somebody said it. Look at the Flying Tiger and the Pixel... with those examples, why make a monkey-copy of a FS? <_<

 

Putting a square-top main on a Flying Scot is like putting lipstick on a cement mixer.

 

Except that cement mixer is faster & more fun to sail.

 

And they will be competing against the used boat market, just like every other "new class" boat.

 

FB- Doug

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Why is there a mass exodus of jobs from the US?

 

This. Wal-Mart mentality. It's not evil corporations who send jobs overseas, it's the consumer who decides that cheaper is better, no matter the consequences.

 

 

 

wow what a coincidence i read this today. I work for a small IT company and we have a Chinese partner who makes some specific parts for us that here in the US would make it to expensive. I picked the owner of the Chinese company up this morning from the airport. He is uber wealthy, has over 15K employees and is willing to invest hundreds of thousands in tooling to build out products and ideas. If it can be made cheaper and there is a market then who cares if the Chinese build it, not all Chinese people are bad, ruthless or communist...they have people who want to feed their families anyway they can. I should show him a Melges 24 and tell him if he can make a quality boat for 25K then he would sell a shit ton. I buy local all the time, my local restaurants, hardware, clothes etc, but at some point some purchases make sense economically to go outside of your own town/country etc.

On the consumer and business, sure, it makes sense to source overseas and I can't fault people too much for that.

 

On a national level, turning the US into a nation of nothing but service industry jobs has pretty dire long term consequences.

 

I instituted a personal "Don't Buy Made in China" policy a few months ago and I still haven't had to break it yet. The only thing I haven't been able to find from an alternate source is an oven mitt (go figure).

 

Chinese respect for intellectual property:

22072.jpeg

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I don't understand why people continue to buy Chinese imported garbage for use in basically every aspect of their lives....food.....clothes....tools....toys...appliances......etc. to save a few bucks here and a few bucks there with the resulting purchase being much lower quality than something that was produced domestically more often than not. And then they have the short sightedness to bitch about our economy and how badly we're done by, your brother got laid off, etc. etc. Maybe if you were buying the suit that your neighbor makes in town rather than the Chinese shelf piece from Wal Mart, he'd be more inclined to have the new front door for his house made at your shop rather than head down to home depot to get the Chinese unit for 40 bucks less.

 

For the past decade or so, the trade deficit between imports from China to the US and exports from the US to China was around $200 billion.....the difference. You think the economy might be a little healthier if a large percentage of that TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS stayed shoreside?

If the Chinese made a cheap enough freighter we would buy it to decrease the cost of hauling all of our money overseas…..sickening. I personally go out of my way to avoid products made in China, and yes I will absolutely pay more money to buy something domestically produced…every-single-time.

 

Rant over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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. And I can't really see it selling well in the US so what are you guys all bent about?

 

The J24 had knock offs also. Probably the closest knock off was the Merrit 25 only they redesigned all the issues the J/24 had and ended up with a much better boat.

The Inter Club 24 was also a knock off of the J-24.

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The Inter Club 24 was also a knock off of the J-24.

Not quite. My understanding is that the IC-24s were all J/24s at some point. Donor hull with a redesigned deck and cockpit. At least thats how they started out. Not sure if there are "new" IC-24s. Someone who knows more will chime in.

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I don't understand why people continue to buy Chinese imported garbage for use in basically every aspect of their lives....food.....clothes....tools....toys...appliances......etc. to save a few bucks here and a few bucks there with the resulting purchase being much lower quality than something that was produced domestically more often than not. And then they have the short sightedness to bitch about our economy and how badly we're done by, your brother got laid off, etc. etc. Maybe if you were buying the suit that your neighbor makes in town rather than the Chinese shelf piece from Wal Mart, he'd be more inclined to have the new front door for his house made at your shop rather than head down to home depot to get the Chinese unit for 40 bucks less.

 

For the past decade or so, the trade deficit between imports from China to the US and exports from the US to China was around $200 billion.....the difference. You think the economy might be a little healthier if a large percentage of that TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS stayed shoreside?

If the Chinese made a cheap enough freighter we would buy it to decrease the cost of hauling all of our money overseas…..sickening. I personally go out of my way to avoid products made in China, and yes I will absolutely pay more money to buy something domestically produced…every-single-time.

 

Rant over.

 

+1 and don't forget the effect Chinese manufacturing is having on the environment

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I don't understand why people continue to buy Chinese imported garbage for use in basically every aspect of their lives....food.....clothes....tools....toys...appliances......etc. to save a few bucks here and a few bucks there with the resulting purchase being much lower quality than something that was produced domestically more often than not. And then they have the short sightedness to bitch about our economy and how badly we're done by, your brother got laid off, etc. etc. Maybe if you were buying the suit that your neighbor makes in town rather than the Chinese shelf piece from Wal Mart, he'd be more inclined to have the new front door for his house made at your shop rather than head down to home depot to get the Chinese unit for 40 bucks less.

 

For the past decade or so, the trade deficit between imports from China to the US and exports from the US to China was around $200 billion.....the difference. You think the economy might be a little healthier if a large percentage of that TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS stayed shoreside?

If the Chinese made a cheap enough freighter we would buy it to decrease the cost of hauling all of our money overseas…..sickening. I personally go out of my way to avoid products made in China, and yes I will absolutely pay more money to buy something domestically produced…every-single-time.

 

Rant over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it's extremely hard to find many products that are not made in China. Sometimes I just don't know. For example, I purchased RTA (ready to assemble) kitchen cabinets from a US supplier in the Midwest. They didn't say where their products are made. It looked like a domestic manufacturer. So, I placed my order and the boxes arrived with "Made in China" in large letters. The difference in price between what I bought and the US made RTA cabinets is huge. It is so big that I cannot afford the US stuff. When Americans had much more buying power, avoiding foreign products was easier and made more sense. Today, the cost of US made stuff is so high in many cases that I have no choice but to buy foreign.

 

Most of the parts that go on a Harley Davidson motorcycle are made abroad. It's only assembled here. This goes for much of the US made automobiles too.

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In the global economy over 20% of all goods are counterfeit, illegal, or some combination of the two. For example -- 1 in 3 cigarettes is thought to be a knockoff. Most of these goods come from China/SE Asia -- and this underground, illegal economy is paid for in an incredible variety of ways. From the knockoff stainless steel bolts holding the engine on the wing of the plane you are about to fly on, to melamine in your dog food, and God knows what in those cigarettes -- its not just about cheaper; its fucking deadly. And lets look beyond our health -- China and SE asia are absolutely poisoning their countries. Their manufacturing cost advantages don't stop at cheap ass labor that they don't even enforce the meager regulations they have on -- toxic chemical disposal? Disability pay for work related injuries? Nope. no worries there.

 

But the issue here is a more significant one. In the move towards the "information economy" -- value isn't in the produced goods, its in the ideas behind them. The R&D, the designs, the words and musics -- all of it is really the only value adding commerce of the future. In other words, it ain't the bag you are carrying that gets all the girls around you envious -- its the little fucking logo that says you are rich enough to afford to buy this bag, and therefore a better catch than the rest of you po' hoes.

 

In the case of the flying scot, some people invested a shitload of time, energy, and capital developing the design, getting it built, convincing people to buy it, and building up fleets around the world. They are protected from competition because they don't have to certify the chinese hulls -- but its still a slap in the fucking face and basic theft. If the Scot people wouldn't license -- then the Chinese should have moved on to another design till someone said yes. Or built an open source design off the internet. Or hired a friggin designer like with the FT or the Pixel.

 

But lets put all that aside and work on the immediate problem: who the fuck is going to pay for our friggin western governments and handouts. Or, as I said to my Dad when he bought an AGM motorcyle battery from China instead payin $20 more for one made in PA -- "no problem Dad, they will just raise my taxes to pay for all your brand name meds -- and you will be dead and guilt free by the time I am old and can't retire and am eating catfood because you and the rest of the baby boomer generation saw fit to steal all my money to fund your 30 year, 2-home, snow bird retirements while buying products made not by your own children but by our competitors overseas". And that is a fucking quote....but I forgot to add "buying products whose designs were STOLEN from your own children"

 

If you got have a fucking brain, you start worrying about why the balance of trade matters a shitload more than just the extra $20 you pay for something.

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In the global economy over 20% of all goods are counterfeit, illegal, or some combination of the two. For example -- 1 in 3 cigarettes is thought to be a knockoff. Most of these goods come from China/SE Asia -- and this underground, illegal economy is paid for in an incredible variety of ways. From the knockoff stainless steel bolts holding the engine on the wing of the plane you are about to fly on, to melamine in your dog food, and God knows what in those cigarettes -- its not just about cheaper; its fucking deadly. And lets look beyond our health -- China and SE asia are absolutely poisoning their countries. Their manufacturing cost advantages don't stop at cheap ass labor that they don't even enforce the meager regulations they have on -- toxic chemical disposal? Disability pay for work related injuries? Nope. no worries there.

 

But the issue here is a more significant one. In the move towards the "information economy" -- value isn't in the produced goods, its in the ideas behind them. The R&D, the designs, the words and musics -- all of it is really the only value adding commerce of the future. In other words, it ain't the bag you are carrying that gets all the girls around you envious -- its the little fucking logo that says you are rich enough to afford to buy this bag, and therefore a better catch than the rest of you po' hoes.

 

In the case of the flying scot, some people invested a shitload of time, energy, and capital developing the design, getting it built, convincing people to buy it, and building up fleets around the world. They are protected from competition because they don't have to certify the chinese hulls -- but its still a slap in the fucking face and basic theft. If the Scot people wouldn't license -- then the Chinese should have moved on to another design till someone said yes. Or built an open source design off the internet. Or hired a friggin designer like with the FT or the Pixel.

 

But lets put all that aside and work on the immediate problem: who the fuck is going to pay for our friggin western governments and handouts. Or, as I said to my Dad when he bought an AGM motorcyle battery from China instead payin $20 more for one made in PA -- "no problem Dad, they will just raise my taxes to pay for all your brand name meds -- and you will be dead and guilt free by the time I am old and can't retire and am eating catfood because you and the rest of the baby boomer generation saw fit to steal all my money to fund your 30 year, 2-home, snow bird retirements while buying products made not by your own children but by our competitors overseas". And that is a fucking quote....but I forgot to add "buying products whose designs were STOLEN from your own children"

 

If you got have a fucking brain, you start worrying about why the balance of trade matters a shitload more than just the extra $20 you pay for something.

 

+1000

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The Inter Club 24 was also a knock off of the J-24.

Not quite. My understanding is that the IC-24s were all J/24s at some point. Donor hull with a redesigned deck and cockpit. At least thats how they started out. Not sure if there are "new" IC-24s. Someone who knows more will chime in.

That's my understanding, Slick!

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Business ethics aside........

Of all the boats they could have picked to copy, they pick the Flying Scot?

... ...

 

+1

 

I'm glad somebody said it. Look at the Flying Tiger and the Pixel... with those examples, why make a monkey-copy of a FS? <_<

 

Putting a square-top main on a Flying Scot is like putting lipstick on a cement mixer.

 

Except that cement mixer is faster & more fun to sail.

 

And they will be competing against the used boat market, just like every other "new class" boat.

 

FB- Doug

 

 

The whole world does not appreciate flying a hull on a cat or the exhileration of 12kt reach on a U-20. I have taught newbie adult sailors on Flying Scots for many years. Sometimes with as many as 6 in the boat at a time. They don't call them Flying Sidewalks for nothing.

 

They are durable, dependable and exiting enough for most newbs. Over 6000 sold and probably 4500 or more still sailing. Don't want to get into a M26-SUX discussion but different strokes for different folks.

 

If you are athletic and adventurous, you move on quickly. If not, you quit sailing or get on a Catalina 30. Clearly there is a market for this type / size of boat.

 

I like the looks of a square top, loose footed main on a FS hull. If one of these were available in Detroit, I'd want to see what else they did to the old bird.

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In addition, how stupid and near sighted are we to be selling natural resource companies to China? Products yes, but the actual rights and assets? With all of the mining, mineral, fossil fuel, and now farming assets that are being sold to Chinese companies do people not envision a time in the near future where the increasingly resource hungry Chinese will start to refuse to sell to Americans and Canadians the very products that are produced in US and Canada? Time to take a really close look at how much these short term sales are really worth...make a few pigs fat while sacrificing so much.

 

Watching the crap going on between Canada, the States and their "trade partners" makes me want to sail away sometimes.

 

...ok now my rant is over....promise.

 

So how 'bout those sailboats?

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I was in China. I was walking around the yard with David Winter, a resonable, pleasant and knowledgable guy. He showed me the FS project, i.e. the Red Dragon. I said "David, that's a Flying Scot, an already established one design class." He told ne that he had permission to proceed with his Red Dragon version. I was dubious. I'm not going to get into the whole trade imbalance issue. I have been designing boats for Taiwan and China yards for years and in the early days I never gave a hoot about the international economics of it. I just wanted to design boats and see them built. And I can tell you we had a great time working in Taiwan. It was fun and when I came on the scene there were already boats being built in both Taiwan and Hong Kong. Remember the Cheoy Lees" They were huge in the 1960's. Pilots for Pan Am and NW Airlines had discovered you could get a boat built cheap there years before I started. The boats weren't Hinckleys but they werere good enough and they sold.

 

In the early 1970's Dick Carter had Carter boats built in Greece because it was cheap and nobody bitched. Then Dick started the Carter 30 series in Poland and nobody bitched. Then he moved the 30 project to Japan and nobody bitched. I toltally understod what was going on but I was not sophisticated enough to apply international economics to the process. I just thought we were trying to deliver a good boat at a good price. I also think that David was primarily interested in delivering a good boat at a good price. He just chose to work around the design property issue. All that said, his new boat looks like a hell of a buy and I trust that by now he has worked out the details with the FS group. I wish him the best. But like many of you I keep thinking "Why a FS?"

 

Maybe I'm one of the guilty ones. So, would I do any of it different today? No, don't think I would. I produced some nice, durable boats in Taiwan and a lot of sailors still love them.

If I had been a wealthy guy who could afford to put principle first I'm not sure that I would not have gone to Taiway even then. Dick was a wealthy guy and he tried to build boats in Poland!

God knows my own design work has been ripped off countelsss times by unscrupulous Americans and and Asians. I have always tended to give the Asians, i.e. Taiwanese a pass. Intellectual property was a foreign concept to them. The worst crooks in my opinion were the slimy Americans who knew exactly what they were doing.

 

We live in a world of imported good. The Chinese imported the FT10m design. They build a decent boat and there are a lot of happy owners. Just visit the Australan FT0m thread. Drop into tjhe San Diego fleet exchanges. People are really enjoying this boat.

 

I wish it were all so black and white as it would seem here. But when you are a yacht designer struggling to make a living it all gets pretty grey. The Ft10m was evil the Nap 30 was wonderful but we still have not seen even one Nap 30 and it appears to have dissapeared as a viable project despite all the hype. I do understand the difficulties of producing a boat overseas. We gave up on Croatia with my Far Harbor Container Cruiser. We brouht the tooling to Maine and they built a much better boat.

 

My dear old Dad had an old TV. I said "Dad I'll buy you a nice new Sony." Dad was a South Pacific WWII vet and would have nothing of anything built in Japan. The war never quite ended for Dad. I searched all over for a good TV that was not built in Japan. That was hard. I settled on an RCA that was "asembled in Mexico" which turned out to be a technicality and meant it very well could have been made from Japanase parts but "assembled" in Mexico. My dear old Dad was delighted.

 

Sometimes I just think the big picture is a little bigger than some of you think.

I apologize for rambling on.

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In the global economy over 20% of all goods are counterfeit, illegal, or some combination of the two. For example -- 1 in 3 cigarettes is thought to be a knockoff. Most of these goods come from China/SE Asia -- and this underground, illegal economy is paid for in an incredible variety of ways. From the knockoff stainless steel bolts holding the engine on the wing of the plane you are about to fly on, to melamine in your dog food, and God knows what in those cigarettes -- its not just about cheaper; its fucking deadly. And lets look beyond our health -- China and SE asia are absolutely poisoning their countries. Their manufacturing cost advantages don't stop at cheap ass labor that they don't even enforce the meager regulations they have on -- toxic chemical disposal? Disability pay for work related injuries? Nope. no worries there.

 

But the issue here is a more significant one. In the move towards the "information economy" -- value isn't in the produced goods, its in the ideas behind them. The R&D, the designs, the words and musics -- all of it is really the only value adding commerce of the future. In other words, it ain't the bag you are carrying that gets all the girls around you envious -- its the little fucking logo that says you are rich enough to afford to buy this bag, and therefore a better catch than the rest of you po' hoes.

 

In the case of the flying scot, some people invested a shitload of time, energy, and capital developing the design, getting it built, convincing people to buy it, and building up fleets around the world. They are protected from competition because they don't have to certify the chinese hulls -- but its still a slap in the fucking face and basic theft. If the Scot people wouldn't license -- then the Chinese should have moved on to another design till someone said yes. Or built an open source design off the internet. Or hired a friggin designer like with the FT or the Pixel.

 

But lets put all that aside and work on the immediate problem: who the fuck is going to pay for our friggin western governments and handouts. Or, as I said to my Dad when he bought an AGM motorcyle battery from China instead payin $20 more for one made in PA -- "no problem Dad, they will just raise my taxes to pay for all your brand name meds -- and you will be dead and guilt free by the time I am old and can't retire and am eating catfood because you and the rest of the baby boomer generation saw fit to steal all my money to fund your 30 year, 2-home, snow bird retirements while buying products made not by your own children but by our competitors overseas". And that is a fucking quote....but I forgot to add "buying products whose designs were STOLEN from your own children"

 

If you got have a fucking brain, you start worrying about why the balance of trade matters a shitload more than just the extra $20 you pay for something.

 

+1000

 

 

Extremely well put.

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I was in China. I was walking around the yard with David Winter. He showed me the FS project. I said "David, you can't do that. That's a Flying Scot, an already established one design class." He told ne that he had permission to proceed with his Red Dragon version. I was dubious. I'm still dubious. I'm not going to get into the whole trade imbalance issue. I have been designing boats for Tainwan and China yards for years and in the early days I never gave a hoot about the international economics of it. I just wanted to design boats ad see them built. In the early 1970's Dock Caterv had Carter boats built in Greece becuase it was cheap and nobody bitched. Then Dick started the Carter 30 series in Poland and nobody bitched. Then he moved the 30 project to Japan and nobody bitched. I toltally understod what was goijg on but I was not sophisticated enough to apply international economics to the process. I just thought we were trying to deliver a good boatb at a good price.

 

Maybe I'm one of the guilty ones. So, would I do any of it different today? No, don't think I would. I produced some nice, durable boats in Taiwan and a lot of sailors still love them.

If I had been a wealthy guy who could afford to put principle first I'm not sure that I would not have gone to Tainway even then. Dick was a wealthy guy and he tried to build boats in Poland!

 

We live in a world of imported good. The Chinese imported the FT10m design. They build a decent boat and there are a lot of happy owners. Just visit the Australan FT0m thread.

I wish it were all so blacvk and white as it would seem here. But when you are a yacht designer struggling to make a livin it all gets pretty grey. TheFt10m was evil the Nap 30 was wonderful but we still have not sen even one Nap 30. I do understand the difficulties of producing a boat overseas. We gave up on Croatia with my Far Harbor Container Cruiser. We brouht the tooling to Maine and they built a much better boat.

 

My dear old Dad had an old TV. I said "Dad I'll buy you a nice new Sony." Dad was a South Pacific WWII vet and would have nothing of anything built in Japan. The war never quite ended for Dad. I searched all over for a good TV that was not built in Japan. That was hard. I settled on an RCA that was "asembled in Mexico" which turned out to be a technicality and meant it very well could have been made from Japanase parts but "assembled" in Mexico. My dear old Dad was delighted.

 

Sometimes I just think the big picture is a little bigger than some of you think.

 

I agree entirely, I'm not saying that If somebody started making new Flying Scots in Texas that there would be this magical trickle down effect and everything would be made right, I'm just saying that what's happening is not a good situation, and I do everything I can to avoid being a part of it.

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Is it a FS knock-off? Heck yeah. But they're probably not even breaking US copyright law. If I were a club or sailing school considering Scots would I be interested in saving 35%+ and looking at these? Heck yeah. Is it going to hurt the FS class? No, not really, as they're not class legal Scots and can't race. Might provide a bit of a kick in the pants to allow some upgrades to the FS though...

 

Would I be interested in buying one personally? Hell f*ck no.

 

So if I drove around in my truck a stole a dozen Flying Scots off docks and offered them to your program for 60% off that would be even better right?

 

Might provide some people a kick in the pants to lock up their Flying Scots, so I guess it's all good.

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I'm just posting this useless reply because it transforms me from "member" to "Anarchist".

 

The victory tastes soooo sweet.

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I'm a software puke. I've been running software orgs in the U.S. and abroad since the mid-90s. When we as an industry originally went overseas it was 100% because we couldn't hire enough software engineering grads in the U.S. The colleges weren't pumping out as many as we could hire. Then we all went and BEGGED the U.S. Governement -- Billy Gates in particular -- to up the number of H1Bs so we could import the brains we needed. Better they pay U.S. income taxes than some other countries. But we got no joy because our country is lead not by people who build and create products and companies -- but by FUCKING LAWYERS.

 

So then we started opening labs in Ireland, the Eastern European countries, then finally India and China. Of course those Goverments saw the opportunity and funded the hell out of the education. Here in the U.S. we combined No Child Left Behind with the Don't Ask We Don't Pay act -- and ended up with crap. And then Business Week told Wall Street that the only way to build software was to offshore cause it was way cheaper. So, instead of educating for the world of the future -- we just gave it away. And now -- today -- India has more honors students than we have students.

 

Checkmate.

 

So where are we? Lets look:

 

US President -- Obama -- Lawyer

Chinese General Secretary -- Hu Jintau -- Hydraulic Engineer

 

US Head of Congress -- Nancy Pelosi BA Political Science

Chinese Equiv WU Bangguo Electric Engineer

 

 

Rather than bore you I will state the obvious....every single one of the Sr Leadership of China is an engineer. While over here the Rep Candidate for Senate was shocked to learn this morning that the 1st Amendment of our constitution prohibits the government from fucking around with religion.

 

 

God help us all. We are weak and stupid -- which is why people are laughing at us as they steal what good shit we have left.

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Notwithstanding any trade imbalance, copy cat, rip off issues...I'm still trying to figure out why a Scot? So there are a few improvements, a square top main etc. This fits my polished turd theory which states that you can take a piece of shit, shine it up real nice and pretty like and you still have a shiny piece of shit.

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I was in China. I was walking around the yard with David Winter. He showed me the FS project. I said "David, you can't do that. That's a Flying Scot, an already established one design class." He told ne that he had permission to proceed with his Red Dragon version. I was dubious. I'm still dubious. I'm not going to get into the whole trade imbalance issue. I have been designing boats for Tainwan and China yards for years and in the early days I never gave a hoot about the international economics of it. I just wanted to design boats ad see them built. In the early 1970's Dock Caterv had Carter boats built in Greece becuase it was cheap and nobody bitched. Then Dick started the Carter 30 series in Poland and nobody bitched. Then he moved the 30 project to Japan and nobody bitched. I toltally understod what was goijg on but I was not sophisticated enough to apply international economics to the process. I just thought we were trying to deliver a good boatb at a good price.

 

Maybe I'm one of the guilty ones. So, would I do any of it different today? No, don't think I would. I produced some nice, durable boats in Taiwan and a lot of sailors still love them.

If I had been a wealthy guy who could afford to put principle first I'm not sure that I would not have gone to Tainway even then. Dick was a wealthy guy and he tried to build boats in Poland!

 

We live in a world of imported good. The Chinese imported the FT10m design. They build a decent boat and there are a lot of happy owners. Just visit the Australan FT0m thread.

I wish it were all so blacvk and white as it would seem here. But when you are a yacht designer struggling to make a livin it all gets pretty grey. TheFt10m was evil the Nap 30 was wonderful but we still have not sen even one Nap 30. I do understand the difficulties of producing a boat overseas. We gave up on Croatia with my Far Harbor Container Cruiser. We brouht the tooling to Maine and they built a much better boat.

 

My dear old Dad had an old TV. I said "Dad I'll buy you a nice new Sony." Dad was a South Pacific WWII vet and would have nothing of anything built in Japan. The war never quite ended for Dad. I searched all over for a good TV that was not built in Japan. That was hard. I settled on an RCA that was "asembled in Mexico" which turned out to be a technicality and meant it very well could have been made from Japanase parts but "assembled" in Mexico. My dear old Dad was delighted.

 

Sometimes I just think the big picture is a little bigger than some of you think.

 

I agree entirely, I'm not saying that If somebody started making new Flying Scots in Texas that there would be this magical trickle down effect and everything would be made right, I'm just saying that what's happening is not a good situation, and I do everything I can to avoid being a part of it.

 

In my mind there are two questions. The first is the IP question, and the casual way the operators of this site just provide a pass without any kind of thought, analysis or apparent moral framework. While Chinese environmental and worker protection standards may be far behind the West, the business acumen and sophistication is cutting edge. In telecom they have long planned to skip conventional copper network buildout and go directly to high bandwidth alternatives. So, perhaps unlike the Taiwanese 25 years ago, they know exactly what IP is all about and have aggressively sought it out (trains, Boeing wing design) in any number of big commercial ventures. Here it may be a Westerner in essence sited in China going down the ripoff path.

 

Second issue is product quality and integrity. Problems can arise anywhere: Turkey, Argentina, even in a Caddy built in the USA. And the FT sailors may be happy NOW but that wasn't a simple journey from Point A to Point B. Simply put, there seems to be a pervasive national willingness to ship substandard goods and just rely on price as the justification. The examples are endless.

 

Firms with deep commitments to quality, like McConaghy, can maybe overcome this.

 

But no way would I buy an expensive product from one of the expat fly by night shops. By the way, I've looked at the Pixel and its borderline junk too, which may be way it hasn't caught fire on WLIS as it was intended to.

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Why a Scot?

 

I already said upthread that I think it was a bad choice, but I do see a case for it. It's one of the longest-lived classes of family sailboats. Back in the '50s and '60s when I started sailing, there were Penguins, Snipes, Comets, Daysailors, Sunfish, Sailfish, Javelins, Jet 14s, Albacores, GP-14s, Dusters, Celebrities, Thistles, and a whole lot more including Flying Scots and Highlanders. Of all of them, the FS has a pretty unique combination of stability for the family plus the ability to plane cleanly downwind, and it still has a big active class.

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I'm a software puke. I've been running software orgs in the U.S. and abroad since the mid-90s. When we as an industry originally went overseas it was 100% because we couldn't hire enough software engineering grads in the U.S. The colleges weren't pumping out as many as we could hire. Then we all went and BEGGED the U.S. Governement -- Billy Gates in particular -- to up the number of H1Bs so we could import the brains we needed. Better they pay U.S. income taxes than some other countries. But we got no joy because our country is lead not by people who build and create products and companies -- but by FUCKING LAWYERS.

 

So then we started opening labs in Ireland, the Eastern European countries, then finally India and China. Of course those Goverments saw the opportunity and funded the hell out of the education. Here in the U.S. we combined No Child Left Behind with the Don't Ask We Don't Pay act -- and ended up with crap. And then Business Week told Wall Street that the only way to build software was to offshore cause it was way cheaper. So, instead of educating for the world of the future -- we just gave it away. And now -- today -- India has more honors students than we have students.

 

Checkmate.

 

So where are we? Lets look:

 

US President -- Obama -- Lawyer

Chinese General Secretary -- Hu Jintau -- Hydraulic Engineer

 

US Head of Congress -- Nancy Pelosi BA Political Science

Chinese Equiv WU Bangguo Electric Engineer

 

 

Rather than bore you I will state the obvious....every single one of the Sr Leadership of China is an engineer. While over here the Rep Candidate for Senate was shocked to learn this morning that the 1st Amendment of our constitution prohibits the government from fucking around with religion.

 

 

God help us all. We are weak and stupid -- which is why people are laughing at us as they steal what good shit we have left.

 

 

most of what you wrote is correct except for the education part. Only a few countries have standards like the US. A grad student from India means nothing here, 80% are useless undereducated robots. My landscape guy was a surgeon in Turkey, The US didn't recognize his schooling...he said he performed surgeries for years.

 

We are the only country I believe to honestly track human rights, education, public debt. I learned long ago to stop fighting the fight and worry about feeding me and my family.

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I'm a software puke. I've been running software orgs in the U.S. and abroad since the mid-90s. When we as an industry originally went overseas it was 100% because we couldn't hire enough software engineering grads in the U.S. The colleges weren't pumping out as many as we could hire. Then we all went and BEGGED the U.S. Governement -- Billy Gates in particular -- to up the number of H1Bs so we could import the brains we needed. Better they pay U.S. income taxes than some other countries. But we got no joy because our country is lead not by people who build and create products and companies -- but by FUCKING LAWYERS.

 

So then we started opening labs in Ireland, the Eastern European countries, then finally India and China. Of course those Goverments saw the opportunity and funded the hell out of the education. Here in the U.S. we combined No Child Left Behind with the Don't Ask We Don't Pay act -- and ended up with crap. And then Business Week told Wall Street that the only way to build software was to offshore cause it was way cheaper. So, instead of educating for the world of the future -- we just gave it away. And now -- today -- India has more honors students than we have students.

 

Checkmate.

 

So where are we? Lets look:

 

US President -- Obama -- Lawyer

Chinese General Secretary -- Hu Jintau -- Hydraulic Engineer

 

US Head of Congress -- Nancy Pelosi BA Political Science

Chinese Equiv WU Bangguo Electric Engineer

 

 

Rather than bore you I will state the obvious....every single one of the Sr Leadership of China is an engineer. While over here the Rep Candidate for Senate was shocked to learn this morning that the 1st Amendment of our constitution prohibits the government from fucking around with religion.

 

 

God help us all. We are weak and stupid -- which is why people are laughing at us as they steal what good shit we have left.

 

Dude we are consumers and we cry and stomp our feet and even put fake data on home loan papers when its clear we can't afford what we want so we cheat and still get what we want. It didn't happen overnight.

 

As for building stuff we haven't been that way for some time. Shoot my father inlaw is a Nuke engineer retired two years ago. He said all the nuke guys were Indian now and any new stuff is French. There isn't a nuke program in the US regarding training or schooling. I know a few engineer types a couple are road way guys and the other dudes work for either larger international gigs and make crap for money when in the US or super small shops and still make pretty poor money. The issue being they compete with engineers in other countries who simply make less.

 

China the GOV has been devaluing its currency for a long time to the point that Obama is getting tired of it and had a few discussions on this devaluation topic just recently. The issue is the US keeps borrowing money from China so Obama's sway is very limited given China could just say hey screw you no more loans balance your own freaking books we don't care what you think about us setting very under market value on our currency thus killing any production competition from any country with currency more accurately valued.

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I'm a software puke. I've been running software orgs in the U.S. and abroad since the mid-90s. When we as an industry originally went overseas it was 100% because we couldn't hire enough software engineering grads in the U.S. The colleges weren't pumping out as many as we could hire. Then we all went and BEGGED the U.S. Governement -- Billy Gates in particular -- to up the number of H1Bs so we could import the brains we needed. Better they pay U.S. income taxes than some other countries. But we got no joy because our country is lead not by people who build and create products and companies -- but by FUCKING LAWYERS.

 

So then we started opening labs in Ireland, the Eastern European countries, then finally India and China. Of course those Goverments saw the opportunity and funded the hell out of the education. Here in the U.S. we combined No Child Left Behind with the Don't Ask We Don't Pay act -- and ended up with crap. And then Business Week told Wall Street that the only way to build software was to offshore cause it was way cheaper. So, instead of educating for the world of the future -- we just gave it away. And now -- today -- India has more honors students than we have students.

 

Checkmate.

 

So where are we? Lets look:

 

US President -- Obama -- Lawyer

Chinese General Secretary -- Hu Jintau -- Hydraulic Engineer

 

US Head of Congress -- Nancy Pelosi BA Political Science

Chinese Equiv WU Bangguo Electric Engineer

 

 

Rather than bore you I will state the obvious....every single one of the Sr Leadership of China is an engineer. While over here the Rep Candidate for Senate was shocked to learn this morning that the 1st Amendment of our constitution prohibits the government from fucking around with religion.

 

 

God help us all. We are weak and stupid -- which is why people are laughing at us as they steal what good shit we have left.

 

Oh yeah, I agree completely. Our conservative society is going to wind up like a Western version of the Taliban eventually, with every school subject that disagrees with the "one true" religion being removed from the curriculum. We are a socially conservative society that cares more about avoiding nudity on TV than on educating our children to be scientists and engineers.

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.....As for building stuff we haven't been that way for some time. Shoot my father inlaw is a Nuke engineer retired two years ago. He said all the nuke guys were Indian now and any new stuff is French. There isn't a nuke program in the US regarding training or schooling. I know a few engineer types a couple are road way guys and the other dudes work for either larger international gigs and make crap for money when in the US or super small shops and still make pretty poor money. The issue being they compete with engineers in other countries who simply make less.

....

 

We have the best Nuclear training program in the world, bar none. it's called the U. S. Navy and it provides most of the operators in the United States. we also have great nuclear engineering schools from the likes of the University of MD (Have/had their own reactor). because of the recent energy crisis, our nuclear industry is on an amazing resurgence.

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I'm a software puke. I've been running software orgs in the U.S. and abroad since the mid-90s. When we as an industry originally went overseas it was 100% because we couldn't hire enough software engineering grads in the U.S. The colleges weren't pumping out as many as we could hire. Then we all went and BEGGED the U.S. Governement -- Billy Gates in particular -- to up the number of H1Bs so we could import the brains we needed. Better they pay U.S. income taxes than some other countries. But we got no joy because our country is lead not by people who build and create products and companies -- but by FUCKING LAWYERS.

 

So then we started opening labs in Ireland, the Eastern European countries, then finally India and China. Of course those Goverments saw the opportunity and funded the hell out of the education. Here in the U.S. we combined No Child Left Behind with the Don't Ask We Don't Pay act -- and ended up with crap. And then Business Week told Wall Street that the only way to build software was to offshore cause it was way cheaper. So, instead of educating for the world of the future -- we just gave it away. And now -- today -- India has more honors students than we have students.

 

Checkmate.

 

So where are we? Lets look:

 

US President -- Obama -- Lawyer

Chinese General Secretary -- Hu Jintau -- Hydraulic Engineer

 

US Head of Congress -- Nancy Pelosi BA Political Science

Chinese Equiv WU Bangguo Electric Engineer

 

 

Rather than bore you I will state the obvious....every single one of the Sr Leadership of China is an engineer. While over here the Rep Candidate for Senate was shocked to learn this morning that the 1st Amendment of our constitution prohibits the government from fucking around with religion.

 

 

God help us all. We are weak and stupid -- which is why people are laughing at us as they steal what good shit we have left.

 

Thank you

 

Want to fix a problem? Get a problem solver, AKA engineer.

 

Want to complicate things? Get a lawyer.

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I am not ok with this. I will be really rude to anyone I see sailing one of these. Everybody who says otherwise, wait till your job is toast and you start out every business conversation with "Welcome to WalMart."

 

There is nothing in my store that is made in china.

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BIAM:

Still bitter?

bitter? no...but very glad I didn't buy that boat

 

the story is quite relevant to the topic of this thread...

 

the illusion of a low cost boat proved otherwise when owners started rebuilding major components just to make the boat seaworthy...

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I'm a software puke. I've been running software orgs in the U.S. and abroad since the mid-90s. When we as an industry originally went overseas it was 100% because we couldn't hire enough software engineering grads in the U.S. The colleges weren't pumping out as many as we could hire. Then we all went and BEGGED the U.S. Governement -- Billy Gates in particular -- to up the number of H1Bs so we could import the brains we needed. Better they pay U.S. income taxes than some other countries. But we got no joy because our country is lead not by people who build and create products and companies -- but by FUCKING LAWYERS.

 

So then we started opening labs in Ireland, the Eastern European countries, then finally India and China. Of course those Goverments saw the opportunity and funded the hell out of the education. Here in the U.S. we combined No Child Left Behind with the Don't Ask We Don't Pay act -- and ended up with crap. And then Business Week told Wall Street that the only way to build software was to offshore cause it was way cheaper. So, instead of educating for the world of the future -- we just gave it away. And now -- today -- India has more honors students than we have students.

 

Checkmate.

 

So where are we? Lets look:

 

US President -- Obama -- Lawyer

Chinese General Secretary -- Hu Jintau -- Hydraulic Engineer

 

US Head of Congress -- Nancy Pelosi BA Political Science

Chinese Equiv WU Bangguo Electric Engineer

 

 

Rather than bore you I will state the obvious....every single one of the Sr Leadership of China is an engineer. While over here the Rep Candidate for Senate was shocked to learn this morning that the 1st Amendment of our constitution prohibits the government from fucking around with religion.

 

 

God help us all. We are weak and stupid -- which is why people are laughing at us as they steal what good shit we have left.

 

 

most of what you wrote is correct except for the education part. Only a few countries have standards like the US. A grad student from India means nothing here, 80% are useless undereducated robots. My landscape guy was a surgeon in Turkey, The US didn't recognize his schooling...he said he performed surgeries for years.

 

We are the only country I believe to honestly track human rights, education, public debt. I learned long ago to stop fighting the fight and worry about feeding me and my family.

 

"e are the only country I believe to honestly track human rights, education, public debt. I learned long ago to stop fighting the fight and worry about feeding me and my family."

 

 

Really?? that's a little short sighted, and so is a lot of this conversation... Canada, Great Britten, France, all of the Scandinavian countries, Australia, NZ ect.... you are the only Country to track human rights, education, public debt???? come on. and don't bring up debts, because on a world scale the US is damaging the world economy for generations to come as we speak. What happens when China calls in the Trillions of $'s owed for foreign goods... how much is the US Debt up to now??? can the world ever recover from that???

 

our world is not the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. and it will continue to change. to me other parts of the world are adapting much faster than some western countries... and it doesn't look like we are doing much about it.

 

 

Not that i agree with what China and the east are doing, however, what ever we are doing in NA, they are doing better, stronger and fas

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Game, set, match. Its over and we didnt even know there was a game on. But hey, lets argue over Roe V. Wade some more, or why its important to teach creationism in public school, or debate the consequences of discussing birth control with hormone raging teenagers, or ......(fill in your favorite here).......

 

In the meantime, lets not buy any fake Flying Scots....or Fryring Scrots...or whatever they will be called.

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I'm a software puke. I've been running software orgs in the U.S. and abroad since the mid-90s. When we as an industry originally went overseas it was 100% because we couldn't hire enough software engineering grads in the U.S. The colleges weren't pumping out as many as we could hire. Then we all went and BEGGED the U.S. Governement -- Billy Gates in particular -- to up the number of H1Bs so we could import the brains we needed. Better they pay U.S. income taxes than some other countries. But we got no joy because our country is lead not by people who build and create products and companies -- but by FUCKING LAWYERS.

 

So then we started opening labs in Ireland, the Eastern European countries, then finally India and China. Of course those Goverments saw the opportunity and funded the hell out of the education. Here in the U.S. we combined No Child Left Behind with the Don't Ask We Don't Pay act -- and ended up with crap. And then Business Week told Wall Street that the only way to build software was to offshore cause it was way cheaper. So, instead of educating for the world of the future -- we just gave it away. And now -- today -- India has more honors students than we have students.

 

Checkmate.

 

 

 

So where are we? Lets look:

 

US President -- Obama -- Lawyer

Chinese General Secretary -- Hu Jintau -- Hydraulic Engineer

 

US Head of Congress -- Nancy Pelosi BA Political Science

Chinese Equiv WU Bangguo Electric Engineer

 

 

Rather than bore you I will state the obvious....every single one of the Sr Leadership of China is an engineer. While over here the Rep Candidate for Senate was shocked to learn this morning that the 1st Amendment of our constitution prohibits the government from fucking around with religion.

 

 

God help us all. We are weak and stupid -- which is why people are laughing at us as they steal what good shit we have left.

 

 

most of what you wrote is correct except for the education part. Only a few countries have standards like the US. A grad student from India means nothing here, 80% are useless undereducated robots. My landscape guy was a surgeon in Turkey, The US didn't recognize his schooling...he said he performed surgeries for years.

 

We are the only country I believe to honestly track human rights, education, public debt. I learned long ago to stop fighting the fight and worry about feeding me and my family.

 

"e are the only country I believe to honestly track human rights, education, public debt. I learned long ago to stop fighting the fight and worry about feeding me and my family."

 

 

Really?? that's a little short sighted, and so is a lot of this conversation... Canada, Great Britten, France, all of the Scandinavian countries, Australia, NZ ect.... you are the only Country to track human rights, education, public debt???? come on. and don't bring up debts, because on a world scale the US is damaging the world economy for generations to come as we speak. What happens when China calls in the Trillions of $'s owed for foreign goods... how much is the US Debt up to now??? can the world ever recover from that???

 

our world is not the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. and it will continue to change. to me other parts of the world are adapting much faster than some western countries... and it doesn't look like we are doing much about it.

 

 

Not that i agree with what China and the east are doing, however, what ever we are doing in NA, they are doing better, stronger and fas

 

oh, and you can bet your ass a grad degree from China or India are the real deal. I hire these people on a regular basis -- probably 400 or so over the past 10 years --so don't kid yourself that their degrees are somehow fake; or more importantly they somehow don't have the smarts, skills and education needed to out compete us.

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I was in China. I was walking around the yard with David Winter, a resonable, pleasant and knowledgable guy. He showed me the FS project, i.e. the Red Dragon. I said "David, that's a Flying Scot, an already established one design class." He told ne that he had permission to proceed with his Red Dragon version. I was dubious. I'm not going to get into the whole trade imbalance issue. I have been designing boats for Taiwan and China yards for years and in the early days I never gave a hoot about the international economics of it. I just wanted to design boats and see them built. And I can tell you we had a great time working in Taiwan. It was fun and when I came on the scene there were already boats being built in both Taiwan and Hong Kong. Remember the Cheoy Lees" They were huge in the 1960's. Pilots for Pan Am and NW Airlines had discovered you could get a boat built cheap there years before I started. The boats weren't Hinckleys but they werere good enough and they sold.

 

In the early 1970's Dick Carter had Carter boats built in Greece because it was cheap and nobody bitched. Then Dick started the Carter 30 series in Poland and nobody bitched. Then he moved the 30 project to Japan and nobody bitched. I toltally understod what was going on but I was not sophisticated enough to apply international economics to the process. I just thought we were trying to deliver a good boat at a good price. I also think that David was primarily interested in delivering a good boat at a good price. He just chose to work around the design property issue. All that said, his new boat looks like a hell of a buy and I trust that by now he has worked out the details with the FS group. I wish him the best. But like many of you I keep thinking "Why a FS?"

 

Maybe I'm one of the guilty ones. So, would I do any of it different today? No, don't think I would. I produced some nice, durable boats in Taiwan and a lot of sailors still love them.

If I had been a wealthy guy who could afford to put principle first I'm not sure that I would not have gone to Taiway even then. Dick was a wealthy guy and he tried to build boats in Poland!

God knows my own design work has been ripped off countelsss times by unscrupulous Americans and and Asians. I have always tended to give the Asians, i.e. Taiwanese a pass. Intellectual property was a foreign concept to them. The worst crooks in my opinion were the slimy Americans who knew exactly what they were doing.

 

We live in a world of imported good. The Chinese imported the FT10m design. They build a decent boat and there are a lot of happy owners. Just visit the Australan FT0m thread. Drop into tjhe San Diego fleet exchanges. People are really enjoying this boat.

 

I wish it were all so black and white as it would seem here. But when you are a yacht designer struggling to make a living it all gets pretty grey. The Ft10m was evil the Nap 30 was wonderful but we still have not seen even one Nap 30 and it appears to have dissapeared as a viable project despite all the hype. I do understand the difficulties of producing a boat overseas. We gave up on Croatia with my Far Harbor Container Cruiser. We brouht the tooling to Maine and they built a much better boat.

 

My dear old Dad had an old TV. I said "Dad I'll buy you a nice new Sony." Dad was a South Pacific WWII vet and would have nothing of anything built in Japan. The war never quite ended for Dad. I searched all over for a good TV that was not built in Japan. That was hard. I settled on an RCA that was "asembled in Mexico" which turned out to be a technicality and meant it very well could have been made from Japanase parts but "assembled" in Mexico. My dear old Dad was delighted.

 

Sometimes I just think the big picture is a little bigger than some of you think.

I apologize for rambling on.

 

 

Thank you for your perspective, even if it must feel like being Don Quijote.

 

PS: A word to anybody who thinks "buy American!" will help: It ain't so. The gain to any individual person from buying Chinese is so much larger than the marginal negative effect on his personal income that he will always be better of buying imported stuffe (if he has a choice between otherwise identical products). The way for the US to change this situation is either to raise tariffs or to produce goods and services which can compete on the world market. Unfortunately, global demand for US financial services has rather declined. But take another perspective: You are in the lucky position to be able to pay for real products with a paper currency and finally with T-Bills, which you can devalue at will at a later point.

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