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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Blur

SeaCart 26

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==================

Tim, what an extraordinary tri! Great job! Do you know what the takeoff angle of heel is- with the main hull just flying(1" or so above the water)?

 

I can't take any credit for the design of this boat, but I am most certainly enjoying being a part of the project and am now having fun sailing it. We're all looking forward to racing it as a One Design! This photo serves as a pretty good reference, although difficult from side on maybe you can deduce your own answer as to the angle of heel, as you can see it's not that great.

 

post-47508-066832300 1316020993_thumb.png

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As part of the project my qualified guess is around 12-16 deg. heel depending on displacement, speed and curved foils in or out / with foils fully down (more righting moment) it make you lift the mainhull higher up in the wind range and speed but at lower heel angel.

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looks like you pretty much leave the boards down all the way, all the time?

 

Actually no, we've always been lifting the windward one to keep it clear of the water. Looks like it may have been forgotten in the photo I posted above.

 

Last weekend we had both down for a while on a hard downwind, the boat starting lifting out of the water. There's room left for experimentation that's for sure.

 

Here's a fun video of last weekend with a couple of Aussie mates onboard!

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As part of the project my qualified guess is around 12-16 deg. heel depending on displacement, speed and curved foils in or out / with foils fully down (more righting moment) it make you lift the mainhull higher up in the wind range and speed but at lower heel angel.

===================

I'm curious why you say that there is more righting moment with the foils deployed than with them retracted? With a curved foil the center of lift of the foil is inboard of the ama center of buoyancy so the combined vertical lift of the ama buoyancy and foil would be slightly inboard, slightly reducing the righting moment, correct? Therefore, with the foils retracted the ama would sink more but the righting moment would be slightly greater.

The difference, with the foil deployed, is that the ama is higher out of the water with significantly less wetted surface and the takeoff angle of heel is less, correct?

I appreciate your help here-thanks!

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From an earlier post on another forum:

 

Just did a very rough but accurate couple of sketches illustrating what happens with and without foils on a tri that can fly the main hull with or without foils:

 

1) top sketch shows main hull just clearing water and ama foil deployed.

Righting Arm(RA) is 7.71', angle of heel is 16 degrees.(slightly less RM)

-

2) bottom sketch shows main hull just clearing the water and ama foil retracted.

Righting arm is 8.25', angle of heel is 19 degrees.(slightly more RM)

===============

With a trimaran that can fly the main hull with or without lifting foils, these rough but accurate sketches illustrate the following:

a-- the take-off angle of the foil equipped boat is less,

b-- the wetted surface of the foil equipped boat is less,

c-- the Righting Arm, and therefore the Righting Moment of the foil equipped boat is less than that of the boat with no foils.

d-- The portion of the ama hull available for pitch control is greater on the foil equipped boat, which, along with foil placement, will reduce the potential for pitchpole.

=======

The same princible is apparent on boats like the NACRA 20 which has less RM than a cat with the same beam w/o curved lifting foils.....

Both sketches show the main hull at the same height above water ,just at takeoff....

post-30-034801900 1316041565_thumb.jpg

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looks like you pretty much leave the boards down all the way, all the time?

 

Actually no, we've always been lifting the windward one to keep it clear of the water. Looks like it may have been forgotten in the photo I posted above.

 

Last weekend we had both down for a while on a hard downwind, the boat starting lifting out of the water. There's room left for experimentation that's for sure.

 

Here's a fun video of last weekend with a couple of Aussie mates onboard!

 

Yes Tim is right; the bord is normally up on the windward side – But the photo nicely display the length of the curved foil.

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The SC-26 looks like a fun ride.

 

The question I continue to have regarding trimarans that fly their main hulls is....why a tri? If the boat is designed to be sailed with the main hull flying, then it seem to me that a cat would be much lighter, and more efficient, especially in a boat this this size.

 

I can see how having a main hull makes folding the boat possible, and therefore more user friendly in terms of storage and towing, however wouldn't a cat this same size be significant;y faster?

 

***Robert Thompson***

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Perhaps a tri is faster in a wider range of conditions? i.e. light air?

also, structurally a tri can be built much wider allowing a more powerful rig?

 

 

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Tri or cat?

One can compare the Seacart 26 to the Marstrom 32 - the later is a 20% more expensive:

Weight: SC26 800kg M32 450kg

Beam 5,6m 5,8m

Length 7,92 9,75m

Sail upw 37m2 48m2

Gennak 43m2 70m2

 

Both are the latest design and production and quite affordable boats - for pure sailing.

For the figures the M32 should be the clearly fastest. Fun is that we may see these boats competing

next year in Sweden.

 

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Tri or cat?

One can compare the Seacart 26 to the Marstrom 32 - the later is a 20% more expensive:

Weight: SC26 800kg M32 450kg

Beam 5,6m 5,8m

Length 7,92 9,75m

Sail upw 37m2 48m2

Gennak 43m2 70m2

 

Both are the latest design and production and quite affordable boats - for pure sailing.

For the figures the M32 should be the clearly fastest. Fun is that we may see these boats competing

next year in Sweden.

 

 

I think you'll find the M32 is closer to 50% more expensive. The great thing about a trimaran in this size range of boat is more than a wider/stiffer platform. It is also far more forgiving in stronger conditions when you have the larger volume of the main hull to rely on, we've had the SC26 racing in over 30kts TWS and have found it safe. That's a great asset as we work to convert many mono sailors to multihull sailing. The SC26 has a roomy cockpit that is great to work from and provides a nice place to rest between races and offers ample storage. Folding is also much quicker than dismantling, very important, we're looking good for a strong Scandinavian SC26 fleet and circuit next year! It's a One Design boat, designed to be versatile and sailed all over the world in varying conditions and to have fun with when it gets windy, not just optimised for lighter airs.

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i agree with Tim above

 

i sail a wide 12' x 14' weta tri with lots of carbon

 

and a narrow 8' x 17' beachcat with lots of alloy

 

i imagine new they would cost about the same

 

the longer, narrower cat can be sailed faster by being literally sailed on the edge by trapeze

 

but being on the edge, it can and does go over and is a bear to get back up...

 

i generally don't feel comfortable taking non-sailors out on it as all on board need to be at the right place at the right time

 

the tri in comparison being wider doesn't need a trapeze to master and the center hull gives a great place to park non-sailors, in 1 case even a sleeping child

 

for the money a cat can always be built to go faster at the expense of being more tender

 

but a well designed and built, (read expensive) tri can be almost as fast, more forgiving and more welcoming to the majority of sailors and non-sailors

 

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The SC-26 looks like a fun ride.

 

The question I continue to have regarding trimarans that fly their main hulls is....why a tri? If the boat is designed to be sailed with the main hull flying, then it seem to me that a cat would be much lighter, and more efficient, especially in a boat this this size.

 

I can see how having a main hull makes folding the boat possible, and therefore more user friendly in terms of storage and towing, however wouldn't a cat this same size be significant;y faster?

 

***Robert Thompson***

===============

It depends on the "mission" for the boat: if cost is not a factor and you compare two boats the same length a tri can be substantially oversquare(beam=1.2-1.3 times length), carry more SA, make better use of lifting foils,and be faster. The best example is USA-17 vs Alinghi where there were almost no restrictions. Also, almost all the current record breaking ocean going multihulls are tri's-and that says a whole lot about seaworthiness max out. I think the Sea Cart 26 is one of the coolest new multihulls ever produced-and one of the few that takes advantage of being able to fly the main hull-max RM,minimum wetted surface.

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why all this expectation that flying the main hull on a consumer tri is faster

 

all reports from owners seem to say it slows the boat

 

a cat tries to only just fly the windward hull, which means maybe a 5-7? degree tilt to the platform and so rig, which spills minimal air

 

a consumer tri with a deep main hull AND some dihedral is going to need to tilt the rig something like 10-15? degrees or MORE to fly the main hull

 

quite probably more rig pressure is lost at that higher angle than can be made up for by the reduction in wetted area

 

remember dogzilla had a canting rig to solve this issue

 

very few consumer tris are going to go that far

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why all this expectation that flying the main hull on a consumer tri is faster

 

all reports from owners seem to say it slows the boat

 

a cat tries to only just fly the windward hull, which means maybe a 5 degree tilt to the rig, which spills minimal air

 

a consumer tri with a deep main hull AND some dihedral is going to need to tilt the rig something like 10 degrees or MORE to fly the main hull

 

i would think more rig pressure is lost at that higher angle than can be made up for by the reduction in wetted area

 

remember dogzilla had a canting rig to solve this issue

 

very few consumer tris are going to go that far

==============================

Thats a very good point. The takeoff angle is important for the boat to develop max power, max pitchpole resistance and resistance to capsize.There are some tri's that claim to be designed to fly the main hull with 19-26 degree takeoff angles! USA-17 was 13 degrees and ,as you said, had a canting mast. One of the Sea Cart guys said their takeoff angle was 13-16 degrees*.The question is does the increase in RM and reduction in wetted surface trump the angle of heel? Thats where more beam could be handy. But every design is a compromise-looks to me like Sea Cart has it close to right...

 

* interestingly, the logo on the Sea Cart site seems to show a canting mast.... http://seacart26.com/ look at the logo on the upper left corner

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The great thing about a trimaran in this size range of boat is more than a wider/stiffer platform. It is also far more forgiving in stronger conditions when you have the larger volume of the main hull to rely on, we've had the SC26 racing in over 30kts TWS and have found it safe. That's a great asset as we work to convert many mono sailors to multihull sailing. The SC26 has a roomy cockpit that is great to work from and provides a nice place to rest between races and offers ample storage. Folding is also much quicker than dismantling, very important, we're looking good for a strong Scandinavian SC26 fleet and circuit next year! It's a One Design boat, designed to be versatile and sailed all over the world in varying conditions and to have fun with when it gets windy, not just optimised for lighter airs.

 

My 2 cents:

 

The tri is wider argument only applies of the tri designer actually makes the tri wider than similarly sized cats. The enclosed sketch shows my 25 year old cat (black) and the Seacart 26 (red). Comparing with a Firebird cat would maybe be better since the technology level is closer to the Seacart 26. My old strip-planked cat weighs in on par with or even below the Seacart 26 while the Firebird is lighter. Both cats have more interior room than the tri. There is simply more laminate and more hard points on a tri so weight is higher for the same money/tech level. There are of course benefits with tris. One not mentioned above is the better aerodynamics of the jib -- the foot is sealed by the deck. At the end of the day it boils down to a horses for courses choice (or more likely personal preferences).

 

post-12801-055216400 1316195278_thumb.png

 

/Martin

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Heaps of breeze at Cowes Week again today - 25kts plus. The SeaCart 26 was leading the SeaCart 30 on the first upwind. Off the start line it was clear that the 26 was the faster boat in the conditions, being able to press more and drive a bit harder. Very solid and bumpy conditions with wind against tide. Great to get out in front of the 30 and really show what the 26 is capable of. During a tack about 8nm into the first upwind a deadend pulled through in the jib halyard purchase system so we had to call it a day unfortunately as we are keen to take a line honours away from the 30. We made the most of the long downwind ride home and set the gennaker and blasted through the big monos on the way back down to Cowes. Boat was safe downwind, foils work great and when on a couple ocassions float bow went through a wave there was minimal deceleration and it came back up. A great cruise at speed when quite of number of monos lost their rigs!

So Tim what is your production capability, and when are we going to see one in Aus? There is no doubt that the SC26 is at the top end of the market and to sell you need to have a boat on the water that blows us away and has us reaching for our cheque books. There is nothing I like better than beating up on bigger boats, so can't wait.

RH

 

Tim what hull# is currently in build ? How many are sold ? What would the time frame be to get one delivered to San Francisco if a deposit was given this month ?

 

The boat looks Sick.....

 

 

 

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Heaps of breeze at Cowes Week again today - 25kts plus. The SeaCart 26 was leading the SeaCart 30 on the first upwind. Off the start line it was clear that the 26 was the faster boat in the conditions, being able to press more and drive a bit harder. Very solid and bumpy conditions with wind against tide. Great to get out in front of the 30 and really show what the 26 is capable of. During a tack about 8nm into the first upwind a deadend pulled through in the jib halyard purchase system so we had to call it a day unfortunately as we are keen to take a line honours away from the 30. We made the most of the long downwind ride home and set the gennaker and blasted through the big monos on the way back down to Cowes. Boat was safe downwind, foils work great and when on a couple ocassions float bow went through a wave there was minimal deceleration and it came back up. A great cruise at speed when quite of number of monos lost their rigs!

So Tim what is your production capability, and when are we going to see one in Aus? There is no doubt that the SC26 is at the top end of the market and to sell you need to have a boat on the water that blows us away and has us reaching for our cheque books. There is nothing I like better than beating up on bigger boats, so can't wait.

RH

 

Tim what hull# is currently in build ? How many are sold ? What would the time frame be to get one delivered to San Francisco if a deposit was given this month ?

 

The boat looks Sick.....

 

 

Hi USA35018

 

Floats for boat #7 are in build at the moment so we're progress nicely. I'm in talks with another West Coast owner at the moment so it could be a good chance to double up in a container and half that cost and have a SC26 for Christmas!

 

Drop me an email to discuss this further tim@oceanlakemarine.com

 

Cheers

Tim

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The great thing about a trimaran in this size range of boat is more than a wider/stiffer platform. It is also far more forgiving in stronger conditions when you have the larger volume of the main hull to rely on, we've had the SC26 racing in over 30kts TWS and have found it safe. That's a great asset as we work to convert many mono sailors to multihull sailing. The SC26 has a roomy cockpit that is great to work from and provides a nice place to rest between races and offers ample storage. Folding is also much quicker than dismantling, very important, we're looking good for a strong Scandinavian SC26 fleet and circuit next year! It's a One Design boat, designed to be versatile and sailed all over the world in varying conditions and to have fun with when it gets windy, not just optimised for lighter airs.

 

My 2 cents:

 

The tri is wider argument only applies of the tri designer actually makes the tri wider than similarly sized cats. The enclosed sketch shows my 25 year old cat (black) and the Seacart 26 (red). Comparing with a Firebird cat would maybe be better since the technology level is closer to the Seacart 26. My old strip-planked cat weighs in on par with or even below the Seacart 26 while the Firebird is lighter. Both cats have more interior room than the tri. There is simply more laminate and more hard points on a tri so weight is higher for the same money/tech level. There are of course benefits with tris. One not mentioned above is the better aerodynamics of the jib -- the foot is sealed by the deck. At the end of the day it boils down to a horses for courses choice (or more likely personal preferences).

 

post-12801-055216400 1316195278_thumb.png

 

/Martin

 

Very interesting. I'm gonna have to see wtf a firebird cat is.

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Not to hi jack the thread, but what is CMI. I researched to see they are a large manufacturer of many types of different performance sail boats but I could not find any direct information about them.

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My 2 cents:

 

The tri is wider argument only applies of the tri designer actually makes the tri wider than similarly sized cats. The enclosed sketch shows my 25 year old cat (black) and the Seacart 26 (red). Comparing with a Firebird cat would maybe be better since the technology level is closer to the Seacart 26. My old strip-planked cat weighs in on par with or even below the Seacart 26 while the Firebird is lighter. Both cats have more interior room than the tri. There is simply more laminate and more hard points on a tri so weight is higher for the same money/tech level. There are of course benefits with tris. One not mentioned above is the better aerodynamics of the jib -- the foot is sealed by the deck. At the end of the day it boils down to a horses for courses choice (or more likely personal preferences).

 

/Martin

If you are trying to make the boat transportable by road or container then the tri allows for a 2.4m wide main hull, compared to 1.2m for the cat. The cat will have more volume in its two hulls, but the tri will have more usable volume and provide a better living environment, in my opinion. Bridgedeck cats are better than both (for usable internal volume, not sailing), but not transportable in the same way.

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i would imagine that the vast majority of trimarans

 

are in the 20' - 40' range

 

below and above those limits they are greatly outnumbered by cats

 

 

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Very interesting. I'm gonna have to see wtf a firebird cat is.

You could start here:

The color scheme and canting rig is not standard Firebird stuff though :-)

 

/Martin

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If you are trying to make the boat transportable by road or container then the tri allows for a 2.4m wide main hull, compared to 1.2m for the cat. The cat will have more volume in its two hulls, but the tri will have more usable volume and provide a better living environment, in my opinion. Bridgedeck cats are better than both (for usable internal volume, not sailing), but not transportable in the same way.

I would rather stress the ease with which you can make a tri foldable as an advantage if you are going for a lot of road transport.

 

The 2.4 m wide, homely main hull forces us to abandon Seacart 26 type of weight and performance unless you go for costly, high-tech materials. Even then it would be hard to keep weight down.

 

/Martin

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Very interesting. I'm gonna have to see wtf a firebird cat is.

You could start here:

The color scheme and canting rig is not standard Firebird stuff though :-)

 

/Martin

 

Ahhh thats cool - just what I am looking for to my 35 tri - as a windsurfer before - one have tested what kind of effect mast movement can have.

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The latest from the Seacart 26 page:

 

The prototype mast has gone down while flying two hulls under gennaker. The boat was fully loaded up with four 80–100+kg guys onboard, none of whom sustained any injuries. After stabilising the rig on deck the crew made their way back to dock under motor. The aim with the prototype mast was to test it to extremes before commencing full production, so we are happy to announce we have ticked that box and ready to move forward.

 

The reason for failure has been attributed to the capability of the boat to be sailed hard at high angles under gennaker. The boat has a stunning righting moment 15% higher than initially estimated. The One Design (A3) gennaker is a flat furling sail, (yellow, pictured above) which allows you to sail very 'hot' to power up, build speed and lift the main hull going 'wild' in medium breeze. This does however create much larger compressive and torsional forces in the mast when compared to sailing normal angles downwind. With the addition of curved foils in the floats the dynamic load goes up even more because the lift they provide enables you to push the boat much harder.

 

During the test sailing period (Aug–Oct) we have observed and recorded this and even before the breaking of the prototype we revisited the laminate plan for subsequent masts. And so concludes the test period, our goals have been acheived and now we look forward to some great class racing in the near future.

 

 

**R.T.**

 

 

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The boat has a stunning righting moment 15% higher than initially estimated.

 

So is it really that hard to get the effective beam estimate correct with curved lifting foils or is this just a creative way of admitting that they built the boat a good deal heavier than expected?

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Yo diggler !

 

You should be glad the Seacart26 is tested to the limits, few boats are - when some things break it creates a reaction which is called evolution.

 

When you buy a tested product you buy a good product, good luck with your Seacart26 investment in the future.

 

 

 

 

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Look, my comment was half genuine curiosity, as the lifting foil problem is not a trivial one, and half mild sarcasm at what seems to me to be a very heavily spun and comical way of making an admission about the weight of the boat. Look at the statement:

"stunning righting moment 15% higher than initially estimated"

It is comical. Righting moment is force times distance so either they made the boat 15% wider than planned, which is quite the whoops for the builder and I guess could be called stunning, or they made the boat 15% heavier than planned which is quite a misnomer to call stunning. The third possibility is that the center of effort of the foil being inboard of the center of ama buoyancy causes less of a reduction in righting moment then expected. Somehow I don't think this is the case but as I said I am genuinely curious.

To give them credit, at least they have the balls to make some mention of the deviation from predicted values at all, which most manufacturers never do.

 

I have the utmost respect for the Seacart guys and their vision and I very much wish to see them succeed in establishing a healthy one design fleet. In no way did I imply disapproval of the extensive testing the Seacart guys are doing, or that I disapprove of anything breaking on their prototype. That is what prototypes are for.

 

Sadly, unless I get a lucky lotto ticket for Christmas I only get to have one boat and that boat needs to have better cruising amenities than the 26 can offer so no Seacart for investment for me.

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...

It is comical. Righting moment is force times distance so either they made the boat 15% wider than planned, which is quite the whoops for the builder and I guess could be called stunning, or they made the boat 15% heavier than planned which is quite a misnomer to call stunning. The third possibility is that the center of effort of the foil being inboard of the center of ama buoyancy causes less of a reduction in righting moment then expected. ...

 

Or, as is sort of implied by the presser, the crew was heavier than accounted for? Hard to tell from what they said (the screen seemed to be spinning like a google search on barrel roll), but also there might be a 3D issue at work. While the roll stability is decreased by the curved foils the pitch stability should be increased, no? So, the RM along the true axis of rotation could be 15% greater than planned for if the foils are more effective than planned for? After all, if the foils don't give you that what's the point in having them?

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The foils do increase the loads on the boat by preventing the lee float from submerging which keeps the boat sailing flatter which prevents the rig from depowering.

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The boat has a stunning righting moment 15% higher than initially estimated.

 

So is it really that hard to get the effective beam estimate correct with curved lifting foils or is this just a creative way of admitting that they built the boat a good deal heavier than expected?

 

I thought that righting moment was a calculation made from beam, weight and center of effort of the sails. As you say, only one of these can be a variable!!!

 

[this does assume floats that will support boat weight]

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I think the boat was designed for straight boards and it makes sense that the lift generated by the curved foils could add 15% bouyancy on the immersed leeward float which would allow more sail carried at hotter angles.

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The foils will generate less drag when pushed - and the boat will stay more level - that could mean 15% ....?

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I think the boat was designed for straight boards and it makes sense that the lift generated by the curved foils could add 15% bouyancy on the immersed leeward float which would allow more sail carried at hotter angles.

 

...that's probably the most correct probability...it is the lift (!) which is the most difficult to calculate...hope,that they will get it right this (2nd) time...:P

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I think the boat was designed for straight boards and it makes sense that the lift generated by the curved foils could add 15% bouyancy on the immersed leeward float which would allow more sail carried at hotter angles.

...that's probably the most correct probability...it is the lift (!) which is the most difficult to calculate...hope,that they will get it right this (2nd) time...:P

It only makes sense of the leeward hull had too little volume to carry the weight of the boat plus gear and crew. If the leeward hull is big enough to not submerge the foil will 'only' lift the boat out of the water reducing wetted area. If the foil is shaped and placed in a way that makes its vertical force operate at a point closer to the boat centre of gravity than the centre of buoyancy of the leeward hull it will *reduce* righting moment. The centre of support moves to windward as the foil takes on load.

 

/Martin

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If the foil is shaped and placed in a way that makes its vertical force operate at a point closer to the boat centre of gravity than the centre of buoyancy of the leeward hull it will *reduce* righting moment. The centre of support moves to windward as the foil takes on load.

 

Will reduce transverse righting moment but may increase righting moment about the pitch axis. I think it's traditional to use righting moment about the roll axis as a proxy for righting moment. I know the term righting moment often is used synonymously with transverse righting moment. But, they are not the same thing and the simplification may not always make sense.

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It's hard to credit that in the context of the Seacart statement that they were referring to "righting moment about the pitch axis."

 

That's not what I was trying to say at all. I don't know what they meant really. I'm just guessing. I suspect they were talking about RM as the moment about an arbitrary axis that balances HM.

 

FWIW, my point is that RM is typically not all transverse or pitch but a combination of both. Often RM pitch >= RM >= RM roll. In the case of a boat with a foil that changes RM pitch and RM roll differently and dynamically actual RM of equilibrium (the sum of RM pitch and roll) could be quite tricky to calculate.

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It's hard to credit that in the context of the Seacart statement that they were referring to "righting moment about the pitch axis."

 

That's not what I was trying to say at all. I don't know what they meant really. I'm just guessing. I suspect they were talking about RM as the moment about an arbitrary axis that balances HM.

Ah. I see, thank you.

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I don't know if this would in fact work out to being 15%, but another possibility could be that dynamically, with a foil, righting moment could transiently be greater than the sailing weight times the arm.

 

At a given speed through the water, the foil isn't necessarily limited to producing a lift no greater than the sailing weight. It can't provide it for long -- it will result only in brief upward acceleration of that hull -- but it could certainly be there transiently, in response to pitching up.

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that is identical to going over a wave and results in a heaving motion of the vessel. it does cause a transient increase in RM, but all vessels experience this, it is not anything special limited to boats with lifting foils.

 

transient phenomena are relevant to a discussion about static RM.

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It offers a potential area for a mis-estimation that they have now corrected.

 

I would disagree that the behavior of a foil is identical to that of a float in this regard.

 

I don't understand your last sentence.

 

If you in fact mean that transient phenomena are relevant to a discussion about static RM, and you are convinced that static RM was being spoken about in the context of a mast breaking, then what's your point?

 

If you actually mean that they are IRRELEVANT to static RM, then why do you think the discussion of the mast breaking was necessarily static?

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Guys, do you *really* believe those 15% on the Seacart web has anything to do with engineering calculations? This is after all marketing spin trying to make a wrecked rig look like the boat is even more turbo charged than they have told us so far. The real truth is someone needs to a bit of homework.

 

/Martin

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When I don't have facts showing otherwise, I tend to not assume people, who have never given me reason to believe they are liars, are lying.

 

Now occasionally you'll get a situation as with DSS (a foil system for monohulls) where they make claims such as the system giving 40%+ plus greater speed, 10+ knots greater speed and I will indeed call their numbers into question. As an example of not everyone getting a pass.

 

But here? It may well be that they know what they're doing enough that they did some instrumented testing and are telling the truth. Maybe the wording isn't ideal: perhaps rather a specific force was measured at being 15% higher than they had expected would ever be seen. "Righting moment" would not be exactly what was measured but could be a dumb-down-speak.

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If you actually mean that they are IRRELEVANT to static RM, then why do you think the discussion of the mast breaking was necessarily static?

 

I meant not relevent. For the rest, you have missed the point of my original statement and most of the rest of the ensuing steaming pile of conjecture.

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. The SeaCart guys are gonna get her sorted, it is gonna be a blast to sail for anyone who gets to take one for a spin, and the fact that the boat is maybe a bit heavier than they had originally hoped doesn't matter much as long as the variation from boat to boat is small.

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When I don't have facts showing otherwise, I tend to not assume people, who have never given me reason to believe they are liars, are lying.

 

Now occasionally you'll get a situation as with DSS (a foil system for monohulls) where they make claims such as the system giving 40%+ plus greater speed, 10+ knots greater speed and I will indeed call their numbers into question. As an example of not everyone getting a pass.

 

But here? It may well be that they know what they're doing enough that they did some instrumented testing and are telling the truth. Maybe the wording isn't ideal: perhaps rather a specific force was measured at being 15% higher than they had expected would ever be seen. "Righting moment" would not be exactly what was measured but could be a dumb-down-speak.

====================

Trenace, can you give me a link to the DSS comments that you're referring to here? Thanks.

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The 40%+ claim: http://www.quant-boa...in_yachting.pdf

 

10 knots faster: http://www.mysailing...ms-go-fast-gear

 

An additional claim which I have seen no substantiation for - dramatically faster VMG upwind: http://www.harken.co...icstability.php

 

And this is one I hadn't seen before - up to 25% faster than a canting keel! http://www.dynamicst...ysailPartII.pdf

 

Still awaiting factual substantiation.

 

It should have been presented concurrently when making the claims, in my opinion. But different people have different views regarding the making of claims.

 

The Quant 28 boat is doing well and I applaud the owner, the builder, and Mr Welbourn for the boat's results. But I don't see where the results prove such extreme claims. If a comparable boat (just as light, just as much sail area, similarly with racks, and up to the minute design) without DSS were winning with the same times, I don't think we'd be suspecting a 40%-plus speed increaser was involved.

 

If anything, the results support any increases as being not nearly so large as claimed. And quite possibly being entirely lacking with regard to the upwind VMG claim.

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The 40%+ claim: http://www.quant-boa...in_yachting.pdf

 

10 knots faster: http://www.mysailing...ms-go-fast-gear

 

An additional claim which I have seen no substantiation for - dramatically faster VMG upwind: http://www.harken.co...icstability.php

 

And this is one I hadn't seen before - up to 25% faster than a canting keel! http://www.dynamicst...ysailPartII.pdf

 

Still awaiting factual substantiation.

 

It should have been presented concurrently when making the claims, in my opinion. But different people have different views regarding the making of claims.

 

The Quant 28 boat is doing well and I applaud the owner, the builder, and Mr Welbourn for the boat's results. But I don't see where the results prove such extreme claims. If a comparable boat (just as light, just as much sail area, similarly with racks, and up to the minute design) without DSS were winning with the same times, I don't think we'd be suspecting a 40%-plus speed increaser was involved.

 

If anything, the results support any increases as being not nearly so large as claimed. And quite possibly being entirely lacking with regard to the upwind VMG claim.

========================

Thanks for the links. This is part marketing hype but probably factually correct in certain circumstances. I have no problem believing the foil could increase speed 40% on the right boat in the right circumstances. Hell, the speed of the Moth was increased 200%, in the right circumstances, over the seahugger version.

On the Sea Cart 26 there is no question that the foil reduces RM slightly because the center of lift is inboard of the center of buoyancy of the ama.

All you have to do is look at a Multi 23 heeled way over with the ama totally immersed and then watch the Sea Cart 26 to see how much the foil helps reduce wetted surface. The foil reduces the amount of buoyancy required of the ama in order to fly the main hull and the buoyancy of the ama then is

primarily pitch control- at least thats the way it is on the old ORMA 60's and the new Mod 70 where the curved lifting foil can support up to 70% of the weight of the boat. The Sea Cart 26 is an extraordinary design!

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Agreed, I'm really pleased with what's happening with multihulls now. I fall into what might be called the "blended lift" camp: I am going to continue to want to have hull in or planing on the water, but increase in speed and stability from foils is a great thing and probably is still advancing.

 

To get back on topic, it would be nice if the Olympic cat had curved foils. That should no longer be cost-prohibitive.

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Agreed, I'm really pleased with what's happening with multihulls now. I fall into what might be called the "blended lift" camp: I am going to continue to want to have hull in or planing on the water, but increase in speed and stability from foils is a great thing and probably is still advancing.

 

To get back on topic, it would be nice if the Olympic cat had curved foils. That should no longer be cost-prohibitive.

=================

Topic is Sea Cart 26(!).....

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Oh, sorry, I got confused... I thought the Olympic Catamaran thread got sidetracked into talking about the Seacart. (From going back and forth between threads rapidly.)

 

But, not so. Not even close to so. oops

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Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

 

So is he going to play with the RMYC boys?

Will be interesting to see how it goes against Indian Chief. Be a good benchmark for performance.

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

 

So is he going to play with the RMYC boys?

Will be interesting to see how it goes against Indian Chief. Be a good benchmark for performance.

 

That it will... My boat and the Seacart 30 share a lot of the same components out of the Mastrom factory. Our rigs and foils are the same except my rig lost 800mm off it after it broke so that gives the Seacart a bit more rig and most likely more main sail area. Since my boat was launched it has lost about 6 meters of mainsail area due to the shorter mast . i think the Seacart is a bit lighter too. it will depend on the conditions a bit. The tris are defiantly less sticky in the real light stuff which Pittwater tends to serve up a lot of. Lets hope it joins our fleet, it just helps the already fast fleet get faster and go up a gear.

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

 

 

Who are these people who get to "manage" other guys money (boat)

Sean ( ex bank Pop) said he had a boat captain........ I met Mr peet in charge of vodaphone

Mr Packer, Murdoch, Stokes - I am willing if you want ?

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

Ex Farr 40 owner? Who would have believed it, I didn't think it was possible to give those things away.

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

Ex Farr 40 owner? Who would have believed it, I didn't think it was possible to give those things away.

 

 

That one was sold well before the popularity drop. But its awesome to see some half boaters getting on the multi program.

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

Who owns the Seacart in Pittwater

it has been carving up all comers all day

looks awesome

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

Ex Farr 40 owner? Who would have believed it, I didn't think it was possible to give those things away.

 

 

That one was sold well before the popularity drop. But its awesome to see some half boaters getting on the multi program.

Not hard to see the attraction of multies for someone who has been burned by the F40 circus, or even Syd 38's in the bad old days.

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The SC30 on Pittwater is ex Thor from Thailand. It's managed by Bobby Wilmot for a former Sydney 38 and Farr 40 owner.

 

The Thai owner is taking delivery of a new SC26 this week.

 

 

There's a Seacart on Pittwater? I thouhgt they were mythical.

 

Is that the silver thing that has just apeared?

Ex Farr 40 owner? Who would have believed it, I didn't think it was possible to give those things away.

 

 

That one was sold well before the popularity drop. But its awesome to see some half boaters getting on the multi program.

Not hard to see the attraction of multies for someone who has been burned by the F40 circus, or even Syd 38's in the bad old days.

 

 

From what I saw this is a go fast sailer, if this was one of his first outings, he going to love multi's

from personal experience, he will find all the joy of racing without the argy bargy that comes with monos

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Well, did the Seacart 30 race last weekend?

 

short answer No, but last week was the sprint series - small windward leeward course, not everybody likes these, (lots of work for the bigger boats) now it is the end of the spring series with only the handicap start, stern chaser on the 26th,

then there is a week off.

After this, on the 10th of December the summer series start See website RMYC Broken bay - Multihull division

Interesting to note the owner of the Seacart is after a measure for OMR straight off. that number will raise a few comments.

 

While we are talking about OMR, there are lots of comments on unmeasured changes (mostly sail)on the Pittwater fleet,

seems its hard to keep the fleet on a even rating.

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Well, did the Seacart 30 race last weekend?

 

short answer No, but last week was the sprint series - small windward leeward course, not everybody likes these, (lots of work for the bigger boats) now it is the end of the spring series with only the handicap start, stern chaser on the 26th,

then there is a week off.

After this, on the 10th of December the summer series start See website RMYC Broken bay - Multihull division

Interesting to note the owner of the Seacart is after a measure for OMR straight off. that number will raise a few comments.

 

While we are talking about OMR, there are lots of comments on unmeasured changes (mostly sail)on the Pittwater fleet,

seems its hard to keep the fleet on a even rating.

 

This SC30 (Ex Thor, probably to be called Cydon in the future) had a 2011 OMR rating of 1,054 in Thailand.

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This SC30 (Ex Thor, probably to be called Cydon in the future) had a 2011 OMR rating of 1,054 in Thailand.

quote from Tim

 

The multis racing in pittwater now under OMR are

 

Scud F-28R Kurt Ottowa 0.928

Big Bird Grainger MTB 920 Steve Barton 0.894

Zorro Sprint 750 Alan Brand 0.850

Twiggy Twiggy Michael Finch 0.867

Indian Chief Custom Grainger 9.5 Darren Drew 0.943

Summit F-28R Barry Allertz 0.832

Voodoo Spirit Egan 9.5 Doug Cuming 0.929

Off The Rails F-24 Grahame Rivett 0.714

Dash Dash 750 David Renouf 0.852

 

So comparing the Thailand OMR of 1.054 for the Seacart, it appears we have a very fast multi joining.

 

The ORMA Kas didn't join OMR in the Lock Crowther but was given a HCP of 1.52, compare this to Voodoo who had a HCP of 1.08

All this said, and the Thailand OMR is close, maybe the Seacart will not find any competition. It will be very interesting.

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Actually Greenboat, those look like PHS rather than OMR figures

 

these are the HCP for the RMYC fleet

 

Dash 750 0.731

Sprint 750 0.734

Twiggy 0.756

F-28R 0.737

Grainger MTB 920 0.809

Nusa Tiger 9 0.881

Let's Stick Together 0.695

F-24 0.668

Custom Grainger 9.5 0.906

Egan 9.5 0.896

F-82R 0.771

Dash 750 0.763

Grainger 9.2 0.806

 

these are the OMR

Scud F-28R Kurt Ottowa 0.928

Big Bird Grainger MTB 920 Steve Barton 0.894

Zorro Sprint 750 Alan Brand 0.850

Twiggy Twiggy Michael Finch 0.867

Indian Chief Custom Grainger 9.5 Darren Drew 0.943

Summit F-28R Barry Allertz 0.832

Voodoo Spirit Egan 9.5 Doug Cuming 0.929

Off The Rails F-24 Grahame Rivett 0.714

Dash Dash 750 David Renouf 0.852

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About rating of the SC30 -in Sweden where its been sailed for some time it rates 2,17 compared to a Corsair Sprint 750 which is 1,54 -

that is the factor they use to multiple with the sailed time to get corrected time. It should be about 40% faster for the SC30....

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I know it is off topic re Seacart 26 , but it all arose because a Seacart 30 might be joining us on Pittwater, and as handicapper, I have to point out that some incorrect figures have recently been posted re OMR figures for Pittwater boats.

Definitive version of Oz boats on OMR, courtesy of Multihull Yacht Club of Queensland, can be found by downloading or looking at the OMR ratings on http://www.mycq.org.au/OMR/

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About rating of the SC30 -in Sweden where its been sailed for some time it rates 2,17 compared to a Corsair Sprint 750 which is 1,54 -

that is the factor they use to multiple with the sailed time to get corrected time. It should be about 40% faster for the SC30....

 

Are you using LYS in Sweden http://www.multihull...id=33&Itemid=76 or

Texel in Sweden or ? http://multihulls.org/ shows Texel , http://www.multihull...=202&Itemid=112

 

The Seacart 26 data point etc., courtesy of Simon_F with the MOCRA load cell on August 3, 2011,

 

 

MOCRA 2011 Measured Weight (like the OMR WM, with sails, outboard, dry condition )

854 kg [1,883 lb] Seacart 26 M-3027 (WM 08/03/2011)

 

1,000 kg [2,205 lb] Seacart 30 M-1081 Buzz MOCRA 2011 (WM 08/11/2006)

 

OMR 2011 Thailand (Texel.THA)

1,024 kg [2,258 lb] Seacart 30 Thor (WM 12/10/10) now in Australia (?)

 

 

Please refer to OMR http://www.mycq.org.au/OMR/index.htm , OMR Thailand http://www.acyc-phuket.com (Texel.AUS, Texel.THA), Texel Netherlands Texel.NDL (LINK) , and MOCRA for specifics.

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to go further off topic, it is interesting to note that the ratings still have the Twiggy mid fleet in a very competitive bunch of modern boats. a design well ahead of its time, and these days offering a lot of bang for your buck!

Actually Greenboat, those look like PHS rather than OMR figures

 

these are the HCP for the RMYC fleet

 

Dash 750 0.731

Sprint 750 0.734

Twiggy 0.756

F-28R 0.737

Grainger MTB 920 0.809

Nusa Tiger 9 0.881

Let's Stick Together 0.695

F-24 0.668

Custom Grainger 9.5 0.906

Egan 9.5 0.896

F-82R 0.771

Dash 750 0.763

Grainger 9.2 0.806

 

these are the OMR

Scud F-28R Kurt Ottowa 0.928

Big Bird Grainger MTB 920 Steve Barton 0.894

Zorro Sprint 750 Alan Brand 0.850

Twiggy Twiggy Michael Finch 0.867

Indian Chief Custom Grainger 9.5 Darren Drew 0.943

Summit F-28R Barry Allertz 0.832

Voodoo Spirit Egan 9.5 Doug Cuming 0.929

Off The Rails F-24 Grahame Rivett 0.714

Dash Dash 750 David Renouf 0.852

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I know it is off topic re Seacart 26 , but it all arose because a Seacart 30 might be joining us on Pittwater, and as handicapper, I have to point out that some incorrect figures have recently been posted re OMR figures for Pittwater boats.

Definitive version of Oz boats on OMR, courtesy of Multihull Yacht Club of Queensland, can be found by downloading or looking at the OMR ratings on http://www.mycq.org.au/OMR/

 

These were the figures (both OMR and PHC) from the Lock Crowther Multihull regatta in October 2011, which was carried out in Pittwater not Queensland OMR figures of which only 1 Pittwater boat attended. ? Why so different. OK I conceed that the PHS numbers are ever changing. But why would you go with QLD numbers when you can get the numbers you race with every week at your home ground ?

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to go further off topic, it is interesting to note that the ratings still have the Twiggy mid fleet in a very competitive bunch of modern boats. a design well ahead of its time, and these days offering a lot of bang for your buck!

Actually Greenboat, those look like PHS rather than OMR figures

 

these are the HCP for the RMYC fleet

 

Dash 750 0.731

Sprint 750 0.734

Twiggy 0.756

F-28R 0.737

Grainger MTB 920 0.809

Nusa Tiger 9 0.881

Let's Stick Together 0.695

F-24 0.668

Custom Grainger 9.5 0.906

Egan 9.5 0.896

F-82R 0.771

Dash 750 0.763

Grainger 9.2 0.806

 

these are the OMR

Scud F-28R Kurt Ottowa 0.928

Big Bird Grainger MTB 920 Steve Barton 0.894

Zorro Sprint 750 Alan Brand 0.850

Twiggy Twiggy Michael Finch 0.867

Indian Chief Custom Grainger 9.5 Darren Drew 0.943

Summit F-28R Barry Allertz 0.832

Voodoo Spirit Egan 9.5 Doug Cuming 0.929

Off The Rails F-24 Grahame Rivett 0.714

Dash Dash 750 David Renouf 0.852

 

A lot has been done to twiggy by finchy, Michael has ceriously upgraded the Tri, this is not an old tired boat and is sailed hard by its owner

see video of twiggy pumping in the lock Crowther regatta, all to the owners credit

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I know it is off topic re Seacart 26 , but it all arose because a Seacart 30 might be joining us on Pittwater, and as handicapper, I have to point out that some incorrect figures have recently been posted re OMR figures for Pittwater boats.

Definitive version of Oz boats on OMR, courtesy of Multihull Yacht Club of Queensland, can be found by downloading or looking at the OMR ratings on http://www.mycq.org.au/OMR/

 

These were the figures (both OMR and PHC) from the Lock Crowther Multihull regatta in October 2011, which was carried out in Pittwater not Queensland OMR figures of which only 1 Pittwater boat attended. ? Why so different. OK I conceed that the PHS numbers are ever changing. But why would you go with QLD numbers when you can get the numbers you race with every week at your home ground ?

 

 

Mate OMR is country wide,why should your boats be measured any differant?Should be the same number in every state.Performance based handicaps are so random.

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I know it is off topic re Seacart 26 , but it all arose because a Seacart 30 might be joining us on Pittwater, and as handicapper, I have to point out that some incorrect figures have recently been posted re OMR figures for Pittwater boats.

Definitive version of Oz boats on OMR, courtesy of Multihull Yacht Club of Queensland, can be found by downloading or looking at the OMR ratings on http://www.mycq.org.au/OMR/

 

These were the figures (both OMR and PHC) from the Lock Crowther Multihull regatta in October 2011, which was carried out in Pittwater not Queensland OMR figures of which only 1 Pittwater boat attended. ? Why so different. OK I conceed that the PHS numbers are ever changing. But why would you go with QLD numbers when you can get the numbers you race with every week at your home ground ?

 

 

Mate OMR is country wide,why should your boats be measured any differant?Should be the same number in every state.Performance based handicaps are so random.

 

I know, thats why I am going on about it, why are the OMR numbers different,

check out both of the mentioned sites yourself ??????. Is this the old and new OMR numbers, has crew weight been taken into account in one and not the other. Were there other issues ????

I think I'll leave the numbers alone now and go back to breaking things on my cat :P

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