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holoino

The french and their sailing

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This is what the ed says about the RdR and France in general :

"In order to replicate what the French have done to create a national passion in sailing, we must first understand it - so check it out."

 

I've experienced both, (grew up in France and lived 10 years in the US), and the difference is quite clear. In my mind it comes down to one thing :

-In France, there are sailing schools everywhere, federated, with a national curriculum, state-run teaching programs and state-sponsored high performance sailing training camps (bunch of commies...).

Coming out of that, the best sailors, no matter how broke they are, can find boats financed by a wide range of sponsors (Insurance, real estate agency, meat or bread brands etc..). Just check what the brands of the various boats in the RdR actually are.

-In the US, if you're racing a sailing yacht, it's because you're a rich white dude, and you drop 1000s of $ in your YC membership.

 

I'm obviously oversimplifying, but i m sure you see my point...

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It's also been suggested that the state run teaching and training centres provide enough employment for the guys that nearly made it that it's worth taking a shot. Where as else where you are totally pissing your career down the brane chasing the sailing dream.

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An other thing is the talent of some french navigator (Tabarly, Moitessier, Colas, Terlain, the Peyron bros, Joyon) to make people dream with their navigations...

 

In the US it seems to be only success that grows people interest, Tabarly never won any real race but his acheivements where great enough to interest people who never had a foot on a deck..

 

But, even if it cost 1000's of $, you have some of the greatest YC in the world...

 

Loic

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Tabarly never won any real race

 

Seriously? The 76 Ostar was not a real race? What with hand steering most of the way after his self-steering broke?

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An other thing is the talent of some french navigator (Tabarly, Moitessier, Colas, Terlain, the Peyron bros, Joyon) to make people dream with their navigations...

 

In the US it seems to be only success that grows people interest, Tabarly never won any real race but his acheivements where great enough to interest people who never had a foot on a deck..

 

But, even if it cost 1000's of $, you have some of the greatest YC in the world...

 

Loic

 

Sounds you are a bit young Loïc ;)

 

If winning the 2nd OSTAR in '64, could be considered so-so, when looking at it from a "pure performance" point of view, one has to relate it to the standard of offshore racing at the time, when flying the spinnaker all night was considered as "hard drive" - incidentally it actually was, given the type of boats used ;)-

Winning the '76 OSTAR was definitely no small feat !

 

In between, Pen Duick III successive wins in all 7 Rorc classics including Channel race, Fastnet -overall-, the Fehrman regatta, The Round Gotland and last but not least Sidney-Hobart were no small achievement when one think that before the French had not secured more than 2 or 3 RORC race wins.

The Sidney-Hobart win went onto all major newspapers front page.

He later did extremely well in Capetown-Rio and Los Angeles-Tahiti.

 

When the '64 OSTAR Pen-Duick II had been rebuilt to experiment P-D III schooner rig, she got what should still be the best ever french result in that race so-far, and was still overall leader 20 hours before the arrival.

 

At the end of the 60s, in France, there were very few pools of superior crews, the Bic AC challenge and the Pen-Duick stable were certainly the prominent ones.

 

Regarding the impact of these "classic races" on the general public. Suffice to say that the French TV channel commissioned a film onboard Pen Duick III for Cape-Town/Rio which was then aired for 50 mn on prime time !

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The French do not have the NFL, NBA, Baseball NHL, College Ball, giant flat screen plasa tv's in every room and every wall of every bar. How many native langauge TV channels do you get at home?

 

Get over it the culture is different. Sailing is and should be a hobby.

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The French do not have the NFL, NBA, Baseball NHL, College Ball, giant flat screen plasa tv's in every room and every wall of every bar. How many native langauge TV channels do you get at home?

 

Get over it the culture is different. (snipped).

 

this much he's got right.

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The French do not have the NFL, NBA, Baseball NHL, College Ball, giant flat screen plasa tv's in every room and every wall of every bar. How many native langauge TV channels do you get at home?

 

Get over it the culture is different. (snipped).

 

this much he's got right.

 

And it's so disappointing.:(

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NFL, NBA, Baseball NHL, College Ball are all sports that we watch, we do not participate on any of them. The question for me is "why sailing is growing everywhere else other than here".

 

In 2008 we did a survey, only 9% of the US fleet was been use (just take a look to each marina around the country, with few examples), 1% will ever see a starting line, I will assume is even less now. On the other hand I just came back from South America where sailing is growing, 78% of participation, high levels of participation are also common in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and all over Europe. No reason why it should not be the same in the USA.

 

Through our research we found some interesting reasons why people don't go sailing/racing:

 

A- "I don't have crew", when asked potential crew members, they will refuse to crew because owner is sailing non-spinnaker (this is one of the few countries where a establish non-spinnaker class exist, obviously unless is a One Design Class). This have an easy fix.....no more non-spinnaker classes, lets encourage all crews to fly their spis, believed or not, it will bring more people into the sport.

 

B- Not enough knowledge/training: Lets run "performance sailing programs". There are a lot of sailing schools but not enough "how to improve your sailing skills school". It needs to be recognized as a "must do program", a great way to bring sailmakers into the mix not only for the purpose of selling sails but to teach and help. Bottom line, add to your budget: training, coaching.

 

C- Get kids excited about sailing skiffs and multihulls.

 

D- Increase the number of Point A to Point B regattas with downwind starts (great photo opportunities). Not only for big events but at club level.

 

E- Do not call off races unless is blowing less than 3 knots.

 

We all love to be part of a 100 boat start, we all want to be part of a sport/hobby (if you like to call it that way) with large number of participants, so I will like to invite everybody to put our ideas together and see how we can increase participation. Even from the business point of view more participation will allow us to sponsor more events, add more services and find more ways to better support the community.

 

This invitation goes not only to every sailor in the USA, but everybody in the industry also. I am sure we can all work together and soon enjoy a sustainable growth of participation in all types of sailing (cruising, racing, offshore racing, etc).

 

Looking forward to see you on the water!

 

Juan

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No, we don't participate in the NBA, major league baseball, the NHL, or professional soccer, but many kids are attracted to those sports, which are widely accessible and affordable, and have dreams of the prestigue and fame that can come from being a professional in any of those endeavours.

 

"Professional" sailors/racers simply don't get the same attention or have a fan base in North America like they do in Europe. When was the last time you flicked through the channels and happened upon a sailboat race? That happens in France. Hell, the Grand Prix race that was part of the St. Pierre Ocean race was filmed and televised (poor french television viewers!), and that was a bunch of PHRF hacks who weren't taking it overly seriously (only racing because they had to do it to get scored, and many crew member from different boats had already left).

 

Even if you grow the participation, I doubt you will ever see sailing in North America reach the same status it has in France.

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I wonder how a 35 hr work week and a welfare state affect willingness to commit to time-intensive sports with long learning curves. Then, I consider the relative obesity rates in France and the US, and not just the fat, per se, but what the difference implies about lifestyle, tastes, and priorities. There's really not much mystery here.

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Regarding point A:

 

I've had no trouble attracting crew to sail non-spin division on my boat, for my local Frostbites. I don't think it's necessary to eliminate non-spin divisions, but I agree with your other points. There are people who want to race, but just aren't comfortable with the 'chute. In fact, most people here urged me not to race spin division on my first time out as skipper.

 

Now that I've got my feet wet, I will be racing with the chute in my future endeavors.

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I am not sure how or when it happened but sailing is a national sport in France. It only plays second to fiddle to Football (soccer) and maybe rugby.

It seems that everyone who lives near the coast has a boat of some sort. Sailing or not. All kids who live near the coast have sailed to a certain degree and even a lot of inland schools send the kids to sailing camps for a few weeks every year. It's accessible.

The whole reason why Football is the world sport is due to that fact that you only have to have a kickable object and two people and you have a basic football game. You only need four people a $5 ball and four sweaters and you have a game that you can talk about afterwards. It's seriously cheap and accessible.

 

Sailing in the US is not cheap and it is not accessible. There are lots of charity sailing centers that are free and accessible but not to the masses. If the masses haven't tried it then they don't get it. Also it is slow. The best available to watch appears to be the extreme 40's but they need start up revenue to do the US. Redbull can get some weird plane racing to be popular it can't be hard to get those cats to be popular. It just takes MONEY!!

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An other thing is the talent of some french navigator (Tabarly, Moitessier, Colas, Terlain, the Peyron bros, Joyon) to make people dream with their navigations...

 

In the US it seems to be only success that grows people interest, Tabarly never won any real race but his acheivements where great enough to interest people who never had a foot on a deck..

 

But, even if it cost 1000's of $, you have some of the greatest YC in the world...

 

Loic

 

As has been pointed out, Tabarly's victory in the 64 OSTAR was huge- awarded the Legion d'Honneur by De Gaulle. He BEAT THE BRITISH! I'd bet that Tabarly is not the product of French interest in sailing, he is the cause of it. The entire sport of singlehanded ocean racing owes everything to Tabarly's victory and French interest.

 

It would be interesting to research the history of French public sailing schools- if my theory is correct, you will see an explosion of interest after the racing developed, not before. Should be easy to prove, and I could easily be wrong. I just know that when I took my folded trimaran across the Maine/Canada border in 2000 to attend the start of the Quebec St. Malo race, (in it's day the premier chance to see these boats on our continent and experience the festival atmosphere before the start), the Canadian officer asked me if I was going to see the start- the American didn't even know it was a boat. There is no great amount of public sailing in Quebec City, but they sure knew the French racers.

 

 

 

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An other thing is the talent of some french navigator (Tabarly, Moitessier, Colas, Terlain, the Peyron bros, Joyon) to make people dream with their navigations...

 

In the US it seems to be only success that grows people interest, Tabarly never won any real race but his acheivements where great enough to interest people who never had a foot on a deck..

 

But, even if it cost 1000's of $, you have some of the greatest YC in the world...

 

Loic

 

As has been pointed out, Tabarly's victory in the 64 OSTAR was huge- awarded the Legion d'Honneur by De Gaulle. He BEAT THE BRITISH! I'd bet that Tabarly is not the product of French interest in sailing, he is the cause of it. The entire sport of singlehanded ocean racing owes everything to Tabarly's victory and French interest.

It would be interesting to research the history of French public sailing schools- if my theory is correct, you will see an explosion of interest after the racing developed, not before. Should be easy to prove, and I could easily be wrong. I just know that when I took my folded trimaran across the Maine/Canada border in 2000 to attend the start of the Quebec St. Malo race, (in it's day the premier chance to see these boats on our continent and experience the festival atmosphere before the start), the Canadian officer asked me if I was going to see the start- the American didn't even know it was a boat. There is no great amount of public sailing in Quebec City, but they sure knew the French racers.

 

Actually there were hundreds of sailing schools in the 60s and 70s, run by clubs and booming on "I want to try that".

Those provided the early racers and cruiser owners.

In the early 80's those clubs -for cash reasons - tried and passed them on to the cities and communities on the basis "factor the cost of a football field and its upkeep, you'll see sailing is cheaper"

France was simultaneously turning into socialism, and those specific politicians were only too proud to show that they could allow everybody to enjoy the "sport of the rich". They even made it part of the schools curriculum.

Incidentally, a very small % of kids trained there later enter club-racing, but they probably fill the onlooking crowds.

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Sailing in the USA has NEVER been a spectator sport with sponsors and "heroes".

I bet WAY more people go see dirt track racing or rodeos in the USA than they do in France. Maybe France needs a program to import race cars and horses?

Sailing takes a lot of time. Those evil commie socialist pinko bedwetting Frenchies somehow get 8 weeks vacation while us manly free market studs seem to be unhappy if not working 24/7/365. Also note that other than the top of the pyramid, the USA has been going backwards in real income for a long time. "Yacht Racing" is right up there with polo ponies and restoring WW II fighter aircraft as a top concern of the average American family :rolleyes:

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Then you have things like this - the establishment of a sailing school by old resistance fighters to restore their trust in people...:

 

http://www.guardian....sailingholidays

...then heading across to the îles Glenans, the tiny archipelago where the organisation was founded by a group of former Resistance fighters soon after the second world war.

 

Those first members had decided that sailing seemed like a good method to relearn how to trust their fellow man. When a chance came to use the Glenans islands as a base, they started up with some old fishing boats and a philosophy of mutual co-operation and volunteering. By the early 1950s, they decided to extend the experience to others and the modern organisation was born. Soon a tradition began to evolve: people would start as trainees, go on to become instructors and then introduce their own children. They now own two of the islands.

 

Like many others, Claude Pesquet was brought to Les Glenans by his father, himself a former Resistance agent. Claude's three children are also instructors and he's a firm advocate of the benefits of sailing. "Out here," he says, "with the changing weather and currents and with your fellow crew, you can experience every emotion imaginable in one day. That can be very challenging, but also very satisfying."....

 

 

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Despite what the "average American" thinks - that the French are assholes and cowards and communists and they don't work enough and their country is all fucked up etc etc, ad infinitum - France is actually a pretty great country and culture. They don't have millions of obese people eating tons of really shitty food and worshipping at the altars of lousy TV series and over-hyped pro sports like car racing and US football and all the rest. Their culture reveres individual performers (sailors for instance) and that "je ne sais quoi" of French cool. The whole country "gets" and loves sailing and the sea and perhaps largely due to the fact that companies did not have the omnipresent media to sell their wares on the limited French TV (this may be a thing of the past now, dunno for sure) - they could effectively advertise and market at all kinds of levels through sponsorship of sailors and yachts. Obviously, French/European companies do not spend huge sums on sponsoring sailing at all kinds of levels becasue they are "into" it or "get" it - it is and has always been good business for them. Look at the long term sponsorship of some of the big name French singlehanders-years and years of support and big efforts.

Perhaps just as importantly is "everyman's" sailing that goes on all over France as noted by others. Small boats and lots of em. In the US, sailing and yachting are largely a wealthy person's pasttime, big boats and less of em. So, can America establish sailing as a national sport like France - not fookin likely I'd say, although there is certainly room for improvement in many many ways. I think we should be thankful that those "fucked up French" have such a wonderful and vibrant sailing culture and environment-it does huge things for sailing worldwide in all respects. And besides, it is the Germans who are really the assholes and they don;t even have really good food and wine or hot chicks or new IMOCA 60's all over the place, or Gauloise, or cafes or...

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Then you have things like this - the establishment of a sailing school by old resistance fighters to restore their trust in people...:

 

http://www.guardian....sailingholidays

...then heading across to the îles Glenans, the tiny archipelago where the organisation was founded by a group of former Resistance fighters soon after the second world war.

 

Those first members had decided that sailing seemed like a good method to relearn how to trust their fellow man. When a chance came to use the Glenans islands as a base, they started up with some old fishing boats and a philosophy of mutual co-operation and volunteering. By the early 1950s, they decided to extend the experience to others and the modern organisation was born. Soon a tradition began to evolve: people would start as trainees, go on to become instructors and then introduce their own children. They now own two of the islands.

 

Like many others, Claude Pesquet was brought to Les Glenans by his father, himself a former Resistance agent. Claude's three children are also instructors and he's a firm advocate of the benefits of sailing. "Out here," he says, "with the changing weather and currents and with your fellow crew, you can experience every emotion imaginable in one day. That can be very challenging, but also very satisfying."....

Well deserved reference to the influence of the Glenans Saiing School, who already ran a Class 1 Illingworth Admiral's cupper before the first Tabarly OSTAR win.

 

More interesting is that if you check the names of the top 4 founders, you'll find Michel Desjoyeaux' own father !!

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Clicky for real attendance data

 

Why do so many want to waste their time trying to turn sailing into a spectator sport. It is not going to happen. Decades ago ABC had the WWW of Sports, the agony of defeat ski jump trailer. The WWW of Sports covered all this obscure sports. Then the NFL and other big time spectator sports found their way from NASCAR to "wrestling". The money and options are to big and to many for sailing to ever play. Even if we had the coverage today it would go the way of English hunting dog show sometime soon.

 

On Halloween Sunday night after a long football weekend the Saints drew a TV audience of >18M playing at the same time as a World Series game.

 

Sailing and spectators is just not going to happen.

 

Enjoy your hobby or passion for sailing, racing or the water. Get a life why do we need everyone with us.

 

Before someone brings up sponsorship watch what you wish for. The outside attention may benefit a few but will come with its own cost. We are starting to see sponsors asking about booze and drugs on the water and at shore parties. Do you want the head of HR on your boat and at the dock when you get in? How about the ethnic and male/female mix on your boat to you want someone butting in there?

 

Sailing is for those who want to sail nothing more.

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It's also been suggested that the state run teaching and training centres provide enough employment for the guys that nearly made it that it's worth taking a shot. Where as else where you are totally pissing your career down the brane chasing the sailing dream.

 

Not just the money, even if one where rich -there would be plenty of reason to hate the local yacht club - have you ever been down to the SDYC? That is one of the biggest collection of asshole personalities ever. Backstabbers constantly talking shit about each other. Fake smiles and hellos everywhere. Who'd want to be part of that? Even when you join the college sailing team, the first thing one learns about sailing is the sailors are meant to be arrogant elitists. From there it only gets worse. Then, you find yourself in the committee room surrounded by idiots who never heard the word 'sportsmanship'. Sailing isn't going to be promoted in the US. Sailing is what it is. All the lipstick in the world isn't going to make that pig pretty.

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;) a thread like this without the expert advise of FU ? really ! what a letdown.:)

 

errr... guys, you should also not disregard the historical perspective : seamanship has been something that has been in europe's genes for a couple of thousand years. the USofA have a long way to go, and no, the situation is far from being desperate, just keep the fuck going you silly plonkers, you can do it.

 

simple example : can't remember when it ever started, but already for decades, yes, decades, friday evening has been some kind of a "holy moment" for me and probably loads of people, simply because of "Thalassa, le magasine de la mer", a telly program on all things related to the sea, not only sailing but just about anything related to the sea ... part of life.

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Despite what the "average American" thinks - that the French are assholes and cowards and communists and they don't work enough and their country is all fucked up etc etc, ad infinitum - France is actually a pretty great country and culture. They don't have millions of obese people eating tons of really shitty food and worshipping at the altars of lousy TV series and over-hyped pro sports like car racing and US football and all the rest. Their culture reveres individual performers (sailors for instance) and that "je ne sais quoi" of French cool. The whole country "gets" and loves sailing and the sea and perhaps largely due to the fact that companies did not have the omnipresent media to sell their wares on the limited French TV (this may be a thing of the past now, dunno for sure) - they could effectively advertise and market at all kinds of levels through sponsorship of sailors and yachts. Obviously, French/European companies do not spend huge sums on sponsoring sailing at all kinds of levels becasue they are "into" it or "get" it - it is and has always been good business for them. Look at the long term sponsorship of some of the big name French singlehanders-years and years of support and big efforts.

Perhaps just as importantly is "everyman's" sailing that goes on all over France as noted by others. Small boats and lots of em. In the US, sailing and yachting are largely a wealthy person's pasttime, big boats and less of em. So, can America establish sailing as a national sport like France - not fookin likely I'd say, although there is certainly room for improvement in many many ways. I think we should be thankful that those "fucked up French" have such a wonderful and vibrant sailing culture and environment-it does huge things for sailing worldwide in all respects. And besides, it is the Germans who are really the assholes and they don;t even have really good food and wine or hot chicks or new IMOCA 60's all over the place, or Gauloise, or cafes or...

 

While there are some good points here, the first part of this post brought to mind a recent cartoon:

 

post-31843-082104400 1288726337_thumb.jpg

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Perhaps just as importantly is "everyman's" sailing that goes on all over France as noted by others. Small boats and lots of em. In the US, sailing and yachting are largely a wealthy person's pasttime, big boats and less of em. So, can America establish sailing as a national sport like France - not fookin likely I'd say, although there is certainly room for improvement in many many ways. .

 

Beneteau, the world's largest manufacture of sailboats, know this all too well. In the USA the entry-level Bennie is 30 feet long and sets you back over $100K without sails. In France they sell 21, 25, and 27 footers with much more modest price tags.

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CrushD - yeah, never said the French weren't a bit crazy...they do love their protests, walkouts and strikes and stuff - I'd guess the lighting cars on fire and looting is the same like-minded dirtbags all over the word who take advantage of a situation...but you gotta be a wee bit crazy to sail a 100' tri alone, at 25+ knots, while smoking a Gaulois-crazy good, but a crazy..

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post-31843-082104400 1288726337_thumb.jpg

 

 

like the cartoon.

 

Doing the Turkey Day reach???

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...Also they call it a royale with cheese.

Royale with Cheers?

 

... then again Maccy Ds in France is just for the tourists. One republics gift tot eh visiting citizens of another.

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I am not sure how or when it happened but sailing is a national sport in France. It only plays second to fiddle to Football (soccer) and maybe rugby.

It seems that everyone who lives near the coast has a boat of some sort. Sailing or not. All kids who live near the coast have sailed to a certain degree and even a lot of inland schools send the kids to sailing camps for a few weeks every year. It's accessible.

The whole reason why Football is the world sport is due to that fact that you only have to have a kickable object and two people and you have a basic football game. You only need four people a $5 ball and four sweaters and you have a game that you can talk about afterwards. It's seriously cheap and accessible.

 

Sailing in the US is not cheap and it is not accessible. There are lots of charity sailing centers that are free and accessible but not to the masses. If the masses haven't tried it then they don't get it. Also it is slow. The best available to watch appears to be the extreme 40's but they need start up revenue to do the US. Redbull can get some weird plane racing to be popular it can't be hard to get those cats to be popular. It just takes MONEY!!

 

i dont see why a 49er/Moth/some beach cat cant be made into a viable circuit as well. If anyone could pull it off, i agree, it would be Red Bull. they;ve done some sailing sponsorships, including an AC boat (Magnus Holmberg's boat i think). Not sure why they cant or wont do a 49er or Moth regatta and get some media boats on the course.

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Holino - has highlighted one, if not the, key factors. Sailing in France is about mass participation with the best sailors able to secure sponsorship and/or crew positions on sponsored boats. Its not so much abouthe "rich owener"

 

A couple of other observations - France is a country blessed with a wonderful coastline and spectacular sailing waters. It is a country which loves the outdoors and being active. Very importantly they go nuts for exrreme sports. Events like the OSTAR and Mini-Transat were English races but the French grasped the solo offshore scene as the epitome of extreme sailing and hence races like the RdR and Vendee are hugely popular and of course the multi-hulls.

 

Another important factor is they generally sail in small boats, encouraging participation and reducing costs - you see very few custom cruiser racers or mini-maxis, it's all about boats like the J80, Figaro-2, Mini's etc funded with sponsorship. The Tour Voile is probably the greatest open access event in the world, 6 weeks of top level inshore and offshore sailing funded by sponsorship through which 10,000's of thousands of sailors have past from students (in their own division) to full professionals.

 

France does all of this and participates in and watches a huge range of other sports - Football, Cycling, Rugby, Winter sports, Olympic disciplines etc.

 

EDIT: Costs - it's much much cheaper to own a sailing boat in France than the UK, eg dray sail package for a J80 is UK in GBP 5,000 (US 8,000) vs simialr in France at Euro 1,500 (US 2,000) - a quarter of the price. Same applies to marina berths. Part of this is due to the cheap land made available by the local authorities and partly due to the large number of ports/harbours which compete for business. The French boat owners do certainly appear to be of more modest means, for exzample you see very little in the way of high tech sails and North is virtually anonymous as it's just too expensive. Numerous classes still mandate Dacron or Mylar sails.

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dray sail package for a J80 is UK in GBP 5,000 (US 8,000)

 

Hamble Point? Lymington?

 

I think you will find most J80s on the Hamble are paying much less than that. I paid half that for a 24 footer, albeit a few years ago now, and a friend of mine was recently paying way less for dry-sailing a 30 footer. Yards aren't exactly turning away business right now.

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Then you have things like this - the establishment of a sailing school by old resistance fighters to restore their trust in people...:

 

http://www.guardian....sailingholidays

 

 

Nice article (full disclosure: I'm partial, I'm a Glenans volunteer ).

 

What might be of interest in this discussion, too, is that one side effect of the Glenans sailing school development in the sixties was the creation of several boats primarily designed to promote sailing to the masses.

 

Jean-jacque Herbulot's Caravelle, Vaurien or Mousquetaire, or Philippe Harlé's Muscadet were the first simple, affordable, massively produced boats on the market and I do believe they helped a lot to bring more people on the water back then, starting kind of a trend. I do believe that sailing, generally speaking, is less seen as a "rich guy" thing here in France, compared to maybe be the UK or US, hence a more global reach.

 

M

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I do believe that sailing, generally speaking, is less seen as a "rich guy" thing here in France, compared to maybe be the UK or US

 

Not particularly seen as a "rich guy thing" in the UK. Not, at least, the dinghy scene, which is a big thing here. I think UK is closer to France than USA in this respect.

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post-31843-082104400 1288726337_thumb.jpg

 

 

like the cartoon.

 

Doing the Turkey Day reach???

 

Yes, but only because the liability waiver will ensure it is a wholesome family event.

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We HAD much more participation in the USA in the past.

It isn't like we NEVER had participants. We had them and they went away.

The Gov Cup used to restrict entries because anything that floated started to show up for the huge party.

Not so much now..................

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1. It helps to have a culture that all take off much of the summer for a holiday at the same time.

2. The French tax laws encourage sport and sport sponsorships. (When they briefly took away that incentive in the late 90s the sailing business in France really took a hit.)

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1. It helps to have a culture that all take off much of the summer for a holiday at the same time.

2. The French tax laws encourage sport and sport sponsorships. (When they briefly took away that incentive in the late 90s the sailing business in France really took a hit.)

 

you know that summer off shit pisses me off. Not because Europe gets to take a month off -- but because the kids are in school the rest of the year and I wish mine were.

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Despite what the "average American" thinks - that the French are assholes and cowards and communists and they don't work enough and their country is all fucked up etc etc, ad infinitum - France is actually a pretty great country and culture. They don't have millions of obese people eating tons of really shitty food and worshipping at the altars of lousy TV series and over-hyped pro sports like car racing and US football and all the rest. Their culture reveres individual performers (sailors for instance) and that "je ne sais quoi" of French cool. The whole country "gets" and loves sailing and the sea and perhaps largely due to the fact that companies did not have the omnipresent media to sell their wares on the limited French TV (this may be a thing of the past now, dunno for sure) - they could effectively advertise and market at all kinds of levels through sponsorship of sailors and yachts. Obviously, French/European companies do not spend huge sums on sponsoring sailing at all kinds of levels becasue they are "into" it or "get" it - it is and has always been good business for them. Look at the long term sponsorship of some of the big name French singlehanders-years and years of support and big efforts.

Perhaps just as importantly is "everyman's" sailing that goes on all over France as noted by others. Small boats and lots of em. In the US, sailing and yachting are largely a wealthy person's pasttime, big boats and less of em. So, can America establish sailing as a national sport like France - not fookin likely I'd say, although there is certainly room for improvement in many many ways. I think we should be thankful that those "fucked up French" have such a wonderful and vibrant sailing culture and environment-it does huge things for sailing worldwide in all respects. And besides, it is the Germans who are really the assholes and they don;t even have really good food and wine or hot chicks or new IMOCA 60's all over the place, or Gauloise, or cafes or...

You probably dig harry legs and arm pits I'm just guessing?

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post-31843-082104400 1288726337_thumb.jpg

 

 

like the cartoon.

 

Doing the Turkey Day reach???

 

Yes, but only because the liability waiver will ensure it is a wholesome family event.

 

 

we're a wholesome bunch of people.......

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"consider the relative obesity rates in France and the US, and not just the fat, per se, but what the difference implies about lifestyle, tastes, and priorities"

 

Now if they put McDonald's drive-through windows at all sailing venues we would have a nation fully of obese sailors!!

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maybe something to do with the the ratio of water to land, if you would push the east coast next to the west there would be a lot more boats per captiva and maybe more racing? just a thought

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Summary-

If you take a country where the east coast and west coast don't have nearly 3,000 miles between them, give everyone a large amount of vacation, and use government subsidies and tax breaks to encourage participation, sailing will be very popular.

In the USA, we can't do much about the middle full of nonsailors, letting everyone get a decent vacation would be seen as a commie plot to destroy civilization, and tax breaks or direct subsidy for "yacht clubs" would have the class-warriors frothing at the mouth in rage about some hard working coal miner in WV or farmer in ND paying his hard earned tax money so that some blueblood snob can have cheaper Gray Poupon :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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I am not sure how or when it happened but sailing is a national sport in France. It only plays second to fiddle to Football (soccer) and maybe rugby.

It seems that everyone who lives near the coast has a boat of some sort. Sailing or not. All kids who live near the coast have sailed to a certain degree and even a lot of inland schools send the kids to sailing camps for a few weeks every year. It's accessible.

The whole reason why Football is the world sport is due to that fact that you only have to have a kickable object and two people and you have a basic football game. You only need four people a $5 ball and four sweaters and you have a game that you can talk about afterwards. It's seriously cheap and accessible.

 

Sailing in the US is not cheap and it is not accessible. There are lots of charity sailing centers that are free and accessible but not to the masses. If the masses haven't tried it then they don't get it. Also it is slow. The best available to watch appears to be the extreme 40's but they need start up revenue to do the US. Redbull can get some weird plane racing to be popular it can't be hard to get those cats to be popular. It just takes MONEY!!

 

i dont see why a 49er/Moth/some beach cat cant be made into a viable circuit as well. If anyone could pull it off, i agree, it would be Red Bull. they;ve done some sailing sponsorships, including an AC boat (Magnus Holmberg's boat i think). Not sure why they cant or wont do a 49er or Moth regatta and get some media boats on the course.

 

To the question of RedBull showing up....

 

I was watching BMX (small bike) racing last night on TV while doing something else and I was struck by something fascinating. First, RedBull does sponsor it, but more importantly it was a gaggle of fresh faced kids having a ball. They were all between 12 and 18. They were divided up by age and sex. They all had local sponsors - like the pizza place down the street etc. They were all completely THRILLED to be interviewed on TV and did a really good imitation of their adult bike racing counterparts. I ended up stopping what I was doing and focusing on the BMX racing.... Why was it on a national cable channel? Why were there expensive ads running? Why BMX bikes and not sailboats? A number of things emerged:

 

1) The races are short and easy to understand. Each lasted about 4 minutes and left plenty of time for ads and interviews between races

2) The equipment wasn't too expensive. Although those carbon bikes are pretty pricey

3) There are a zillion kids who do stunts on bikes in the US and darn few kids who race sailboats.

4) The sport had modified its format to fit TV and to fit what RedBull wanted!

 

This last point was fascinating. I used to ride a BMX bike (very briefly). The races used to be longer - too long to fit within one inter-ad-gap on a TV broadcast. The equipment used to be more expensive and varied. The racers used to be mixed together - I used to drag my sorry 40 year old ass around chasing 18 year old kids. All of this has been changed to make the racing more palatable to advertisers, but also to make it more engaging to the audience.

 

Would sailors be willing to change the sport in these sorts of ways?

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The races used to be longer - too long to fit within one inter-ad-gap on a TV broadcast.

Would sailors be willing to change the sport in these sorts of ways?

Certainly not that one, seen from the old continent, the inter-ad-gaps on your US networks are totally fucking ridiculous ...it totally kills any good program, it dumbs you down, shortens your attention span (and fattens you too :D ).

Guess what, overhere there are still telly channels without ad gaps, just imagine that, like the good old Beeb, bliss !

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I am not sure how or when it happened but sailing is a national sport in France. It only plays second to fiddle to Football (soccer) and maybe rugby.

It seems that everyone who lives near the coast has a boat of some sort. Sailing or not. All kids who live near the coast have sailed to a certain degree and even a lot of inland schools send the kids to sailing camps for a few weeks every year. It's accessible.

The whole reason why Football is the world sport is due to that fact that you only have to have a kickable object and two people and you have a basic football game. You only need four people a $5 ball and four sweaters and you have a game that you can talk about afterwards. It's seriously cheap and accessible.

 

Sailing in the US is not cheap and it is not accessible. There are lots of charity sailing centers that are free and accessible but not to the masses. If the masses haven't tried it then they don't get it. Also it is slow. The best available to watch appears to be the extreme 40's but they need start up revenue to do the US. Redbull can get some weird plane racing to be popular it can't be hard to get those cats to be popular. It just takes MONEY!!

 

i dont see why a 49er/Moth/some beach cat cant be made into a viable circuit as well. If anyone could pull it off, i agree, it would be Red Bull. they;ve done some sailing sponsorships, including an AC boat (Magnus Holmberg's boat i think). Not sure why they cant or wont do a 49er or Moth regatta and get some media boats on the course.

 

To the question of RedBull showing up....

 

I was watching BMX (small bike) racing last night on TV while doing something else and I was struck by something fascinating. First, RedBull does sponsor it, but more importantly it was a gaggle of fresh faced kids having a ball. They were all between 12 and 18. They were divided up by age and sex. They all had local sponsors - like the pizza place down the street etc. They were all completely THRILLED to be interviewed on TV and did a really good imitation of their adult bike racing counterparts. I ended up stopping what I was doing and focusing on the BMX racing.... Why was it on a national cable channel? Why were there expensive ads running? Why BMX bikes and not sailboats? A number of things emerged:

 

1) The races are short and easy to understand. Each lasted about 4 minutes and left plenty of time for ads and interviews between races

2) The equipment wasn't too expensive. Although those carbon bikes are pretty pricey

3) There are a zillion kids who do stunts on bikes in the US and darn few kids who race sailboats.

4) The sport had modified its format to fit TV and to fit what RedBull wanted!

 

This last point was fascinating. I used to ride a BMX bike (very briefly). The races used to be longer - too long to fit within one inter-ad-gap on a TV broadcast. The equipment used to be more expensive and varied. The racers used to be mixed together - I used to drag my sorry 40 year old ass around chasing 18 year old kids. All of this has been changed to make the racing more palatable to advertisers, but also to make it more engaging to the audience.

 

Would sailors be willing to change the sport in these sorts of ways?

I would be willing to bet that the sole reason it was on national cable was that they gave it to the cable channel for free having produced it them selves.

 

The predominant reason there isn't more sailing on the telly is that we are not a promotion or promoter driven sport. Two reasons for that. There are cheeper and easier sports to promote, there is a huge (and you can see it in the attitudes on here) reluctance to open up the sport in that way.

 

The thing is though. There is no choice but to properly promote the sport. If you are not on facebook etc. you do not exist to anyone under the age of 18.

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If you are not on facebook etc. you do not exist to anyone under the age of 18.

 

As far as the UK goes, participation by 18 and under isn't a problem. There's plenty of youths and youthettes sailing. The problem lies with lack of participation by the 25-40 age group, linked to student debt and the unaffordability of housing, and the former has just taken a huge turn for the worse.

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I have way less than zero interest in rearranging sailboat racing to be a TV sport.

YMMV.

 

I am not sure how or when it happened but sailing is a national sport in France. It only plays second to fiddle to Football (soccer) and maybe rugby.

It seems that everyone who lives near the coast has a boat of some sort. Sailing or not. All kids who live near the coast have sailed to a certain degree and even a lot of inland schools send the kids to sailing camps for a few weeks every year. It's accessible.

The whole reason why Football is the world sport is due to that fact that you only have to have a kickable object and two people and you have a basic football game. You only need four people a $5 ball and four sweaters and you have a game that you can talk about afterwards. It's seriously cheap and accessible.

 

Sailing in the US is not cheap and it is not accessible. There are lots of charity sailing centers that are free and accessible but not to the masses. If the masses haven't tried it then they don't get it. Also it is slow. The best available to watch appears to be the extreme 40's but they need start up revenue to do the US. Redbull can get some weird plane racing to be popular it can't be hard to get those cats to be popular. It just takes MONEY!!

 

i dont see why a 49er/Moth/some beach cat cant be made into a viable circuit as well. If anyone could pull it off, i agree, it would be Red Bull. they;ve done some sailing sponsorships, including an AC boat (Magnus Holmberg's boat i think). Not sure why they cant or wont do a 49er or Moth regatta and get some media boats on the course.

 

To the question of RedBull showing up....

 

I was watching BMX (small bike) racing last night on TV while doing something else and I was struck by something fascinating. First, RedBull does sponsor it, but more importantly it was a gaggle of fresh faced kids having a ball. They were all between 12 and 18. They were divided up by age and sex. They all had local sponsors - like the pizza place down the street etc. They were all completely THRILLED to be interviewed on TV and did a really good imitation of their adult bike racing counterparts. I ended up stopping what I was doing and focusing on the BMX racing.... Why was it on a national cable channel? Why were there expensive ads running? Why BMX bikes and not sailboats? A number of things emerged:

 

1) The races are short and easy to understand. Each lasted about 4 minutes and left plenty of time for ads and interviews between races

2) The equipment wasn't too expensive. Although those carbon bikes are pretty pricey

3) There are a zillion kids who do stunts on bikes in the US and darn few kids who race sailboats.

4) The sport had modified its format to fit TV and to fit what RedBull wanted!

 

This last point was fascinating. I used to ride a BMX bike (very briefly). The races used to be longer - too long to fit within one inter-ad-gap on a TV broadcast. The equipment used to be more expensive and varied. The racers used to be mixed together - I used to drag my sorry 40 year old ass around chasing 18 year old kids. All of this has been changed to make the racing more palatable to advertisers, but also to make it more engaging to the audience.

 

Would sailors be willing to change the sport in these sorts of ways?

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The predominant reason there isn't more sailing on the telly is that we are not a promotion or promoter driven sport. Two reasons for that. There are cheeper and easier sports to promote, there is a huge (and you can see it in the attitudes on here) reluctance to open up the sport in that way.

 

 

I think the quantity of content otherwise available is also a factor.

 

the Grand Prix race was televised because there isn't light-years worth of French language content available in the world. It certainly wasn't because it's gripping TV. Gotta fill those hours somehow, and if in the process just one french couch potato comes across it and say "that looks like fun. i should try that", well, you've increased interest in the sport.

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If you are not on facebook etc. you do not exist to anyone under the age of 18.

 

As far as the UK goes, participation by 18 and under isn't a problem. There's plenty of youths and youthettes sailing. The problem lies with lack of participation by the 25-40 age group, linked to student debt and the unaffordability of housing, and the former has just taken a huge turn for the worse.

Yes well when mummy and daddy stop paying for and organising everything it's bound to have an impact. Of cause who in the UK gives a stuff? So long as the families with suitable all encompasing obsession can be persuaded to provide the fodder for the various squads.

 

You want to understand tomorrows 25-40 year olds you better be looking at what they are like at 18. That's part of what went wrong with the current 25-40 age group. Currently the very top end of that age group is where the traditional forms of running sailing is just about still hanging on as relevent. Whether they are capable of being attracted to sailign is another question all together.

 

I'd actually say that the biggest problem for the 25-40 generation in the UK is that it's the first in which the family support system from cradle to grave has essentially completely broken down.

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I have way less than zero interest in rearranging sailboat racing to be a TV sport.

YMMV.

I can well imagine that is the case for the sailing that you do. Why that should mean that it shoudl be the case for all sailing is a little more difficult to understand as an attitude.

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The predominant reason there isn't more sailing on the telly is that we are not a promotion or promoter driven sport. Two reasons for that. There are cheeper and easier sports to promote, there is a huge (and you can see it in the attitudes on here) reluctance to open up the sport in that way.

 

 

I think the quantity of content otherwise available is also a factor.

 

the Grand Prix race was televised because there isn't light-years worth of French language content available in the world. It certainly wasn't because it's gripping TV. Gotta fill those hours somehow, and if in the process just one french couch potato comes across it and say "that looks like fun. i should try that", well, you've increased interest in the sport.

Filling hrs is the priority for the channels it seems, you're right. Just see the 30th repeat of last nights football or rugby match. There are a lot of channels out there these days too.

 

There seems to be a quality threshold for the channels all right. But it's not probibativly expensive to produce to that standard. Something a little over 10k for a half hour show. Ouch you may say. But work out what the total revenues generated by a class associations traveller circuit over a year are and the question becomes why aren't more people doing it now the equipment to generate the footage is dirt cheep.

 

But I think you have the primary market wrong. It starts with the competitors at the event. See BVs comments abou the kids at teh BMX getting a buzz off giving interviews etc. "look mum I'm on the telly".

 

Then it's about friends, relatives and sailors would like to be there but couldn't or didn't make it. It grows outwards from there.

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The predominant reason there isn't more sailing on the telly is that we are not a promotion or promoter driven sport. Two reasons for that. There are cheeper and easier sports to promote, there is a huge (and you can see it in the attitudes on here) reluctance to open up the sport in that way.

 

 

I think the quantity of content otherwise available is also a factor.

 

the Grand Prix race was televised because there isn't light-years worth of French language content available in the world. It certainly wasn't because it's gripping TV. Gotta fill those hours somehow, and if in the process just one french couch potato comes across it and say "that looks like fun. i should try that", well, you've increased interest in the sport.

Filling hrs is the priority for the channels it seems, you're right. Just see the 30th repeat of last nights football or rugby match. There are a lot of channels out there these days too.

 

There seems to be a quality threshold for the channels all right. But it's not probibativly expensive to produce to that standard. Something a little over 10k for a half hour show. Ouch you may say. But work out what the total revenues generated by a class associations traveller circuit over a year are and the question becomes why aren't more people doing it now the equipment to generate the footage is dirt cheep.

 

But I think you have the primary market wrong. It starts with the competitors at the event. See BVs comments abou the kids at teh BMX getting a buzz off giving interviews etc. "look mum I'm on the telly".

 

Then it's about friends, relatives and sailors would like to be there but couldn't or didn't make it. It grows outwards from there.

 

Well, the majority of the competitors that raced in the Grand Prix in St. Pierre would never see themselves on TV, because it was broadcast in the French Territories all over the world. Hell, I didn't see it (though our host family was kind enough to forward a DVD of it. I just don't find sailboat racing very interesting to watch on television, so I've never bothered to watch it). Somewhere in the world, French people would have been watching that race, not knowing anyone in it, and maybe thinking it looked like fun.

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Because when there basically was no such thing as sponsors, corporate logos on sails, "sport boats", rockstars, or PROs racing was doing WAY better than it is now.

The reasons for people not sailing - IMHO - are nothing to do with TV or lack of it.

I could be wrong though. I just don't see how to make sailboat racing TV friendly. The VOR can't even seem to get much corporate interest in the USA and that is 1,000 times as exciting as a bunch of kids doing BMX with Optis in 4 knots of wind :rolleyes:

OH LOOK - JOHNNY PUT A JELLYFISH ON JANE'S HEAD - PENALTY!!!!!!! :lol:

 

I have way less than zero interest in rearranging sailboat racing to be a TV sport.

YMMV.

I can well imagine that is the case for the sailing that you do. Why that should mean that it shoudl be the case for all sailing is a little more difficult to understand as an attitude.

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Because when there basically was no such thing as sponsors, corporate logos on sails, "sport boats", rockstars, or PROs racing was doing WAY better than it is now.

The reasons for people not sailing - IMHO - are nothing to do with TV or lack of it.

I could be wrong though. I just don't see how to make sailboat racing TV friendly. The VOR can't even seem to get much corporate interest in the USA and that is 1,000 times as exciting as a bunch of kids doing BMX with Optis in 4 knots of wind :rolleyes:

OH LOOK - JOHNNY PUT A JELLYFISH ON JANE'S HEAD - PENALTY!!!!!!! :lol:

The Volvo doesn't wave the flag. Simple as. Americans seem to be interested in Americans and little else. No critisism, just the way it looks to be.

 

Whether sailing is popular because it's on the telly or not I don't know. Sailing wasn't on the telly back in the day, it's still not on the telly now. So no change. But it's not on the telly because those involved in sailing aren't putting it there at a time that all the barriers to it being there are crashing down.

 

What I'm not convinced of is the argment that having a proper professional level of a sport has a detrimental effect on the levels of general participation in amateure sailing. That doesn't seem to be the case in many sports.

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Why all the fuss over sailing being on TV or not; changing formats to suit advertisers, etc? As someone said in an earlier post, it wasn't on TV back in the day when things were really jumping, and we're interested in it none the less.

I just spent an enjoyable evening watching VX 40 videos on their website: VX 40s The videos are a half hour long, no commercials (other than what's on the sails and hulls), professional quality, HD, and entertaining as hell. It's just my opinion but I believe this is the wave of the future. You Tube has good sailing videos, but you get tired of watching 2 or 3 minute clips, and the video quality mostly sucks.

 

Fuck corporate TV, cable and satellite companies, and their unsustainable business models. The internet is going to put them out of business. Just like a lot of people here in the US, they're going to have to get used to making less money for their efforts.

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There seems to be a quality threshold for the channels all right. But it's not probibativly expensive to produce to that standard. Something a little over 10k for a half hour show. Ouch you may say. But work out what the total revenues generated by a class associations traveller circuit over a year are and the question becomes why aren't more people doing it now the equipment to generate the footage is dirt cheep.

 

I don't know how much involvement you've had with class associations but $10K is a load of money to most of them. It's a pretty average total annual income for a class association. Actually I've made a 20 minute coaching video for a class. It cost a few hundred quid (for a professional coach) and a load of my time as editor. I don't see many other classes doing it, and why not? Probably because they can't find the sucker to put in 100s of hours of unpaid time. I won't be repeating it any time soon because in the end, the reward didn't match the effort.

 

However the question of how the sport, clubs and classes promote themselves and sustain interest is an important one, and I tend to agree that a piece in "Yachts and Yachting" once a year is probably no longer the answer.

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If you are not on facebook etc. you do not exist to anyone under the age of 18.

 

As far as the UK goes, participation by 18 and under isn't a problem. There's plenty of youths and youthettes sailing. The problem lies with lack of participation by the 25-40 age group, linked to student debt and the unaffordability of housing, and the former has just taken a huge turn for the worse.

Yes well when mummy and daddy stop paying for and organising everything it's bound to have an impact. Of cause who in the UK gives a stuff? So long as the families with suitable all encompasing obsession can be persuaded to provide the fodder for the various squads.

 

You want to understand tomorrows 25-40 year olds you better be looking at what they are like at 18. That's part of what went wrong with the current 25-40 age group. Currently the very top end of that age group is where the traditional forms of running sailing is just about still hanging on as relevent. Whether they are capable of being attracted to sailign is another question all together.

 

But to support your thesis, all those 25-40 year olds would be engaged in some other sport or activity that's doing it better. They aren't. Apart from the standard socialising and pair-bonding that tends to occupy one's attention at that age, they mostly seem to be working to pay off debt and save for a house (average first time buyer in the UK is now aged 37).

 

I'd actually say that the biggest problem for the 25-40 generation in the UK is that it's the first in which the family support system from cradle to grave has essentially completely broken down.

 

Quite. But that doesn't support the argument that they'd be sailing instead if only there were more about it on Facebook.

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Will be interesting to see whether the Royal Southern's Academy is the start of something good, and an initiative to be copied.

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The VOR can't even seem to get much corporate interest in the USA

 

 

When Volvo took over the race in 2001 they were a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford!

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Fuck corporate TV, cable and satellite companies, and their unsustainable business models. The internet is going to put them out of business. Just like a lot of people here in the US, they're going to have to get used to making less money for their efforts.

 

They have been saying that for years and yet Broadcast TV is alive and well and online TV cannot turn a profit.

 

Broadcast TV is and will be the preferred media for the foreseeable future. Studies have shown that online TV is used mostly for viewing of missed shows or for storage to view later.

 

Makes total sense. if you are at home and want to watch TV how would you rather watch it? On your Desktop or Laptop's monitor or on your 50 inch flat screen?

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Folks if you tried to watch our sort-of live video show from the RdR and associated stuff and you were annoyed at the videos hanging up, we are just about done compressing everything a lot further so that we can do it all seamlessly in an hour or so. Thanks for watching and feel free to post questions on the chat if you have any. http://www.justin.tv/onthewateranarchy

 

Will re-stream 19 minutes with Bilou as well as all the start action. He addresses this subject quite well.

 

 

1900 EST

 

So far my answer to this question of why it's so different comes down to a confluence of divergent facts, a historical accident that combined national pride, a need for sporting success on a world stage, a few powerful characters, a strong nautical heritage, influential early adopters in media, government, education, and corporate, and VOILA. Here are the main factors:

 

0) Breton/Norman history of sailing/navigation/viking heritage

1) French/Breton independence and pride

2) Post-war (in the late 60s the French were still smarting from it) need for something to make them proud

3) Moitessier bringing solo sailing to french consciousness

4) Tabarly winning every major ocean race/beating brits at their own game

5) Public/schools/government jumping on it as a great platform for education/advertising/community pride

6) No other options (very few TV choices/etc)

7) Small group of Bretons led by Tabarly take on Whitbread and grow as sailors

8) Tabarly spoiled the french - why should they get excited about AC or other major crewed races when Tabarly could sail a 200 footer alone?

9) Government/newspapers/school systems actively foster future sailors/interest in sailing

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Fuck corporate TV, cable and satellite companies, and their unsustainable business models. The internet is going to put them out of business. Just like a lot of people here in the US, they're going to have to get used to making less money for their efforts.

 

They have been saying that for years and yet Broadcast TV is alive and well and online TV cannot turn a profit.

 

Broadcast TV is and will be the preferred media for the foreseeable future. Studies have shown that online TV is used mostly for viewing of missed shows or for storage to view later.

 

Makes total sense. if you are at home and want to watch TV how would you rather watch it? On your Desktop or Laptop's monitor or on your 50 inch flat screen?

 

Early adopters have their computers hooked to their 50" flats - I know I do. Live streaming video is up 600% in the first 9 months of 2010. Broadcast is flat, Youtube is up 45%. Shit's changing fast, that's for sure.

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maybe something to do with the the ratio of water to land, if you would push the east coast next to the west there would be a lot more boats per captiva and maybe more racing? just a thought

There are these things called "lakes" that many people seem to sail on just fine.

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maybe something to do with the the ratio of water to land, if you would push the east coast next to the west there would be a lot more boats per captiva and maybe more racing? just a thought

There are these things called "lakes" that many people seem to sail on just fine.

I thought they stopped at the edges.

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Its in their blood and their passion, just like ice hockey in Canada......;)

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Watching TV on a computer - folks, my 58" flat screen IS a computer monitor. The only difference between watching on "cable", "broadcast", AppleTV, Netflix, or "Internet streaming" is which remote controller I pick up and which HDMI input I switch the system to. There isn't a difference now and in the very near future you probably won't even have to switch remote-controllers while you're eating your nachos and watching what we used to call "TV". I'm not sure what we'll call it when it's a fully integrated internet streaming, movie playing, TV show watching thing - probably "TV".

 

Regarding the original point of the thread, the French I've sailed with are as diverse (maybe even a bit more so) than Americans or Brits. It's a pretty big place and the reason that sailing is popular in France in one place is probably quite different from the reason it's popular elsewhere. When the RdR leaves it is a VERY different crowd than the one that shows up and hangs around Monaco for the Classic Yacht races, both groups are very large. Just as there are massively different audiences for Formula One vs Rally Cars. As it would be naive to assume that there is one answer for how to engage Americans in sailing (some will like kiteboards and others 4ksb boats) it is naive in the extreme to believe there is one simple answer to why the French like sailing, and more to the point why they show up to watch it. I, for one, really enjoy the Monaco scene as the equally beautiful ladies in the ultra small swim suits of Monaco are far more enjoyable as eye candy than the parka-clad ladies of Normandy. But, I'm just biased.

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Watching TV on a computer - folks, my 58" flat screen IS a computer monitor. The only difference between watching on "cable", "broadcast", AppleTV, Netflix, or "Internet streaming" is which remote controller I pick up and which HDMI input I switch the system to. There isn't a difference now and in the very near future you probably won't even have to switch remote-controllers while you're eating your nachos and watching what we used to call "TV". I'm not sure what we'll call it when it's a fully integrated internet streaming, movie playing, TV show watching thing - probably "TV".

 

Regarding the original point of the thread, the French I've sailed with are as diverse (maybe even a bit more so) than Americans or Brits. It's a pretty big place and the reason that sailing is popular in France in one place is probably quite different from the reason it's popular elsewhere. When the RdR leaves it is a VERY different crowd than the one that shows up and hangs around Monaco for the Classic Yacht races, both groups are very large. Just as there are massively different audiences for Formula One vs Rally Cars. As it would be naive to assume that there is one answer for how to engage Americans in sailing (some will like kiteboards and others 4ksb boats) it is naive in the extreme to believe there is one simple answer to why the French like sailing, and more to the point why they show up to watch it. I, for one, really enjoy the Monaco scene as the equally beautiful ladies in the ultra small swim suits of Monaco are far more enjoyable as eye candy than the parka-clad ladies of Normandy. But, I'm just biased.

 

Yeah, but the Bretons and Normans have all that delicious viking blood, giving them a decidedly different look than the usual french girls. Je les aime tres fort.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Southern stuff doesn't make the network news in France beyond the local region. Only the solo ocean racing stuff seems to capture the national attention like we saw in St. Malo.

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Watching TV on a computer - folks, my 58" flat screen IS a computer monitor. The only difference between watching on "cable", "broadcast", AppleTV, Netflix, or "Internet streaming" is which remote controller I pick up and which HDMI input I switch the system to. There isn't a difference now and in the very near future you probably won't even have to switch remote-controllers while you're eating your nachos and watching what we used to call "TV". I'm not sure what we'll call it when it's a fully integrated internet streaming, movie playing, TV show watching thing - probably "TV".

 

Regarding the original point of the thread, the French I've sailed with are as diverse (maybe even a bit more so) than Americans or Brits. It's a pretty big place and the reason that sailing is popular in France in one place is probably quite different from the reason it's popular elsewhere. When the RdR leaves it is a VERY different crowd than the one that shows up and hangs around Monaco for the Classic Yacht races, both groups are very large. Just as there are massively different audiences for Formula One vs Rally Cars. As it would be naive to assume that there is one answer for how to engage Americans in sailing (some will like kiteboards and others 4ksb boats) it is naive in the extreme to believe there is one simple answer to why the French like sailing, and more to the point why they show up to watch it. I, for one, really enjoy the Monaco scene as the equally beautiful ladies in the ultra small swim suits of Monaco are far more enjoyable as eye candy than the parka-clad ladies of Normandy. But, I'm just biased.

 

Yeah, but the Bretons and Normans have all that delicious viking blood, giving them a decidedly different look than the usual french girls. Je les aime tres fort.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Southern stuff doesn't make the network news in France beyond the local region. Only the solo ocean racing stuff seems to capture the national attention like we saw in St. Malo.

 

Completely agree, on the TV coverage stuff.

 

I'm a Dutch guy married to a Greek woman.... thus the preference for the Southern French "look".

 

B-))

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Here's our Route Du Rhum video show in two parts. Interviews, on and off-water action, and so on. We had over 27,000 views (16,000 unique) of this 2.5 hour broadcast of mostly recorded stuff - quite a surprise actually but a welcome one, so thanks to those that watched it.

 

Part One:

 

<object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="300" width="400" id="clip_embed_player_flash" data="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" bgcolor="#000000"><param name="movie" value="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowNetworking" value="all" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="flashvars" value="auto_play=false&start_volume=25&title=The Route Du Rhum Show - PART ONE - Sailing Anarchy\'s Guide To The World\'s Biggest Sailboat Race&channel=onthewateranarchy&archive_id=273427015" /></object><br /><a href="http://www.justin.tv/onthewateranarchy#r=-rid-&s=em" class="trk" style="padding:2px 0px 4px; display:block; width: 320px; font-weight:normal; font-size:10px; text-decoration:underline; text-align:center;">Watch live video from onthewateranarchy on Justin.tv</a>

 

 

 

 

 

Part Two:

<object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="300" width="400" id="clip_embed_player_flash" data="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" bgcolor="#000000"><param name="movie" value="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowNetworking" value="all" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="flashvars" value="auto_play=false&start_volume=25&title=The Route Du Rhum Show - PART TWO - Sailing Anarchy\'s Guide To The World\'s Biggest Sailboat Race&channel=onthewateranarchy&archive_id=273427156" /></object><br /><a href="http://www.justin.tv/onthewateranarchy#r=-rid-&s=em" class="trk" style="padding:2px 0px 4px; display:block; width: 320px; font-weight:normal; font-size:10px; text-decoration:underline; text-align:center;">Watch live video from onthewateranarchy on Justin.tv</a>

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Here's our Route Du Rhum video show in two parts. Interviews, on and off-water action, and so on. We had over 27,000 views (16,000 unique) of this 2.5 hour broadcast of mostly recorded stuff - quite a surprise actually but a welcome one, so thanks to those that watched it.

 

Part One:

 

<object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="300" width="400" id="clip_embed_player_flash" data="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" bgcolor="#000000"><param name="movie" value="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowNetworking" value="all" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="flashvars" value="auto_play=false&start_volume=25&title=The Route Du Rhum Show - PART ONE - Sailing Anarchy\'s Guide To The World\'s Biggest Sailboat Race&channel=onthewateranarchy&archive_id=273427015" /></object><br /><a href="http://www.justin.tv/onthewateranarchy#r=-rid-&s=em" class="trk" style="padding:2px 0px 4px; display:block; width: 320px; font-weight:normal; font-size:10px; text-decoration:underline; text-align:center;">Watch live video from onthewateranarchy on Justin.tv</a>

 

 

 

 

 

Part Two:

<object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="300" width="400" id="clip_embed_player_flash" data="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" bgcolor="#000000"><param name="movie" value="http://www.justin.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowNetworking" value="all" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="flashvars" value="auto_play=false&start_volume=25&title=The Route Du Rhum Show - PART TWO - Sailing Anarchy\'s Guide To The World\'s Biggest Sailboat Race&channel=onthewateranarchy&archive_id=273427156" /></object><br /><a href="http://www.justin.tv/onthewateranarchy#r=-rid-&s=em" class="trk" style="padding:2px 0px 4px; display:block; width: 320px; font-weight:normal; font-size:10px; text-decoration:underline; text-align:center;">Watch live video from onthewateranarchy on Justin.tv</a>

 

Hey Clean! Weren't you supposed to be in a race to France this summer??? You're so busted...

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I'd actually say that the biggest problem for the 25-40 generation in the UK is that it's the first in which the family support system from cradle to grave has essentially completely broken down.

 

Quite. But that doesn't support the argument that they'd be sailing instead if only there were more about it on Facebook.

No, you're right. That discussion is about the generation that is currently in it's early teens.

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But to support your thesis, all those 25-40 year olds would be engaged in some other sport or activity that's doing it better. They aren't. Apart from the standard socialising and pair-bonding that tends to occupy one's attention at that age, they mostly seem to be working to pay off debt and save for a house (average first time buyer in the UK is now aged 37).

Sports wise, I don't have the stats, but I'd guess that they are still active but that they are involved in none competitive mass participation sport and in anti social ... sorry ... sports where you don't rely on anyone else or compromise your own activity by cooperating with anyone else.

 

I also wonder what the across the board explosion of recreational drug use amongst that generation has done in terms of priorities.

 

 

... also 25-40 seems to be the only age that doesn't get a discount on club membership!

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Watching TV on a computer - folks, my 58" flat screen IS a computer monitor. The only difference between watching on "cable", "broadcast", AppleTV, Netflix, or "Internet streaming" is which remote controller I pick up and which HDMI input I switch the system to. There isn't a difference now and in the very near future you probably won't even have to switch remote-controllers while you're eating your nachos and watching what we used to call "TV". I'm not sure what we'll call it when it's a fully integrated internet streaming, movie playing, TV show watching thing - probably "TV".

 

Regarding the original point of the thread, the French I've sailed with are as diverse (maybe even a bit more so) than Americans or Brits. It's a pretty big place and the reason that sailing is popular in France in one place is probably quite different from the reason it's popular elsewhere. When the RdR leaves it is a VERY different crowd than the one that shows up and hangs around Monaco for the Classic Yacht races, both groups are very large. Just as there are massively different audiences for Formula One vs Rally Cars. As it would be naive to assume that there is one answer for how to engage Americans in sailing (some will like kiteboards and others 4ksb boats) it is naive in the extreme to believe there is one simple answer to why the French like sailing, and more to the point why they show up to watch it. I, for one, really enjoy the Monaco scene as the equally beautiful ladies in the ultra small swim suits of Monaco are far more enjoyable as eye candy than the parka-clad ladies of Normandy. But, I'm just biased.

 

Yeah, but the Bretons and Normans have all that delicious viking blood, giving them a decidedly different look than the usual french girls. Je les aime tres fort.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Southern stuff doesn't make the network news in France beyond the local region. Only the solo ocean racing stuff seems to capture the national attention like we saw in St. Malo.

 

Hey, Clean! get back to your history books ! While the Normands are settled vikings, the Bretons are from fully different extractions, and their relationship with the Vikings was not exactly friendly. If there is most probably a little share of viking blood in ours, it's mostly because the Norsemen were rather harsh in their ways of approaching local girls, once they had looted the town, and/or the Breton mothers' locks were not safe enough. ;)

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Yeah, but the Bretons.......have all that delicious viking blood

 

Nope. Breton language is Celtic, related to Welsh and Cornish. As in Britain, the Celts moved to the western fringes of France in response to invasions from the east.

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Is there anything France can do to elevate the status of their bass fisherman, or are they condemned to languish in mediocrity forever?

What is it about the USA that breeds men capable of handling a 200 HP bass boat, a fishing rod, and a fishfinder with one hand and keep a Bud Lite from spilling in the other hand?

Will France EVER measure up?

 

Seriously - I live on a freaking ISLAND and sailors are very rare here. Most of the sailboats based here are owned by people that live off the island. OTOH there is a fishing boat of some kind in almost every driveway. The locals view fishing as a worthy activity and sailing as something stuck-up fags from Annapolis do that disturbs their fishing. Our local club, which has a great location, has basically nothing to do with sailing. They run powerboat races and outrigger canoe races.

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Yeah, but the Bretons.......have all that delicious viking blood

 

Nope. Breton language is Celtic, related to Welsh and Cornish. As in Britain, the Celts moved to the western fringes of France in response to invasions from the east.

 

Mr C. Even the Cornish and Breton flags are virtually identical - very close links - why do you think it's called Brittany. There is a annual Celtic Music festical in Lorient too.

 

Possibly a bit late for you but "Yer Mat" is the drinking toast you need.

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This is what the ed says about the RdR and France in general :

"In order to replicate what the French have done to create a national passion in sailing, we must first understand it - so check it out."

 

I've experienced both, (grew up in France and lived 10 years in the US), and the difference is quite clear. In my mind it comes down to one thing :

-In France, there are sailing schools everywhere, federated, with a national curriculum, state-run teaching programs and state-sponsored high performance sailing training camps (bunch of commies...).

Coming out of that, the best sailors, no matter how broke they are, can find boats financed by a wide range of sponsors (Insurance, real estate agency, meat or bread brands etc..). Just check what the brands of the various boats in the RdR actually are.

-In the US, if you're racing a sailing yacht, it's because you're a rich white dude, and you drop 1000s of $ in your YC membership.

 

I'm obviously oversimplifying, but i m sure you see my point...

 

Yeah, Americans hate taxes, do not trust their government to do anything right, and therefore prefer that only rich white dudes go sailing. Also, the French are far more romantic than Americans so that's another reason I believe for their passion for sailing. As transportation, sailing is impractical in most respects except that it is a romantic way to travel.

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Yeah, but the Bretons.......have all that delicious viking blood

 

Nope. Breton language is Celtic, related to Welsh and Cornish. As in Britain, the Celts moved to the western fringes of France in response to invasions from the east.

Lots and lots of Viking blood in Brittany. Vikings conquered the entire region throughout the 9th and 10th centuries, and their favorite thing to do after winning a battle was pretty well known.

 

"The Northmen, . .

devastated all

Britanny. . .

Mathedoi, count of

Poher, and a great

throng of Bretons