• Announcements

    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Mr. Fawning

Chain plate a go-go

29 posts in this topic

Just pulled into San Jose del Cabo's marina with the new owner of our '84 Irwin 52. 'Twas blowing 28 on the nose today on the west side, and we popped the upper 5" of the port aft lower chain plate (attaches behind the lower spreader). Bitchin, given that only 2 inches of it is exposed, above the cap rail. And this was without the sails up. Anyways the new owner wants to band aid it somehow and carry on to La Paz, about 150 miles up the Sea of Cortez. Where it can get real fugly. And real fast. I, on the other hand, have told him that I'm not gonna do that leg, and suggested to him that he should pull the boat out right next door at the new yard and fly in some rigging rok-starz to x-ray the other 7 chain plates and check for additional shitty-ness---(even though the boat was given a clean bill of health last June by the surveyor)....despite the fact that they've been encapsulated in fiberglass and saltwater for the past 26 years. My biggest fear is that the other plates are also on their last legs, and it won't take much to drop the stick. Like dominos. I don't wanna get hurt, the Nurse and the Nursetta don't want me to get hurt and I definitely don't want the new owner to get hurt or punch the hull with the stick------or worse.

 

Anyways Kidz, I need some ideas of which course of action to steer the new owner to---without scaring the financial dogshit out of him, killing his dream of sailing forever or pushing him off the cliff of suicide 'cuz he bit off more boat than he could chew and is pretty much both depressed and flat broke this evening. It's really pretty f'ng sad to see this happen to him right now, so I'm gonna try my damnest to help him out.

 

 

Gracias,

 

E.M.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Test load it? Dunno how but atleast you'll know if they're sound. Maybe some kind of jig on the deck and pull it to over max load...grasping at straws here though...

 

Inspection and/or replacement is the safe answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't attempt the trip to La Paz with the boat in that condition.

 

Go to Puerta Vallarta and have the rig pulled. Then, remove all the chain plates and get detailed measurements of the materials required to make new chain plates. It's quite likely that they are all made from the same basic material - probably 2" x 1/2" stainless stock.

 

I'd get that material in the USA - not Mexico. The problem here is that if you get lousy stainless, you'll just be screwed again in no time.

 

Once you have the material, chop it into appropriate lengths and stick it in a suitcase and fly back to Mexico. Find a good metal shop and have them fabricate the chainplates.

 

It's not an inexpensive job. I'd guess you're going to pay about a grand to have the mast pulled and re-stepped plus another $500 or so per chain plate by the time you're done. But then, I haven't been in Mexico for 4 years now ...

 

What ever you do - don't go to La Paz - that upwind trip easily has the potential to cost you the rig. Even Mazatlan, a long reach on port, isn't a good idea with a missing port-side aft lower.

 

Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quick and dirty is new chainplates outside the rail. Of course verify the backing structure, use toggles to make up the length difference, do one at a time and the rig stays up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LaPaz used to be much more cruiser friendly and cheaper than PV. Why not motor to LaPaz. Can't halyard be attached to the toe rail or backing plates be added to provide some temporary support? I would talk to some of the local cruisers or get on one of the cruising nets to ask what yards are good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You think he is depressed because 1 chain plate pulled out; wait until the mast goes over the side. Things happen for reason, and my thought is if 1 chain plate failed the others aren't far behind. And the insurance company will probably not pay the claim, citing preventative maintenance.

 

I am curious about how a chain plate will only pull partially out of the deck.

 

Bam Miller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Working on one at a time might make the new owner feel better as the rig is not down and boat could be moved if needed. Chances are the one that came out was 'flexing' the most due to windage of the radar and seaway encountered.

 

IMHO Get halyards into position and start making plans on making new chainplates from US stock - Good luck

Sail safe!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any chance of getting a look at chainplate attachment without destroying the interior? From some yachtworld photos, it looks like the 3 chainplates/side go through the caprail and into the bulwarK. I would assume they tie into a knee or other structure below deck. By "Popping the top 5 inches" are you saying the chainplate fractured 5" from the top or about 3 inches below deck (and right in the modle of the bulwark)?

 

I have to agree with the others. Break one. Change all. You can do it with the rig up if you do them one or two at a time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you decide on the PV routing,....... a few options and contacts:

 

1) PV Sailing - the local North Sails loft and rigging 329-295-4065 mex, Attn Mike

 

2) SYS Rigging and Yacht services -322-145-8194, Attn Jorge

 

Best Wishes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pictures! Many builders would layer two thin pieces of ss plate together to make up thickness needed, led to crevice corrosion between the two. Look into the clevis pin hole, you can see the joint if yours are sandwich construction. Corrosion of the ss plate as it passes thru deck level is also common. Also check bolts for corrosion.

I replaced all chainplates on a Shannon 50 ketch a couple of years ago, after finding a failing chainplate. All had cracks, all had corroded bolts, some had the holes thru the knees elongating. This was causes by use of fully threaded bolts, the thread actually cut thru the knees. Should have smooth bolt shank entirely thru knees. New chainplates were made from solid stock, all new (correct length) bolts, bolt hole pattern offset as needed to skip old worn holes.

The hardest part of the job was getting access to all the chainplates & pulling them up out of the deck.

In your situation: aft lowers undergo more shock loading than all the other chainplates as mast pumps. I would remove & inspect the other aft lower chainplate. Inspect the others as much as possible in situ. Bright lighting will show any cracking as it will have rust inside. If entire surface is dirty, clean it off with a scotch brite pad. The rust down in the crack will remain & be visible. I would leave the stick up, do chainplates in pairs. The added cost & damage possible to rig lying on ground far outweigh the additional time required by doing two at a time. You also need the halyards/winches to get the plates out of the deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Guyz, thanx for getting back on this so quick. I'm gonna post some pics in a bit of this train-wreck-in-the-making. Trust me, you'll love the failed c/plate----looks like a g-damn half eaten Butterfinger from ancient Egyptian times........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the value of what is still standing I wouldn't take a chance. Best to do as recommended above and replace all the chain plates. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't there somethin' bout buried stainless always rusts with moisture present and no air??? (This is a real question)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly - you've got anoxic corrosion where the chainplate goes thru the glass deck. Since the plate had already failed/cracked completely across before leaving the deck (there is NO bright metal showing in pics) I have no faith in the other plates. Do some careful measuring - it might be possible to cut away the teak around the chainplate about 1" all around and see where the failure occured. Put in a teak dutchman to fill hole later. Good timing on the sale!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gunwhale mounted chainplates won't have that problem, are easy to install given proper backing and won't really impact the sheeting angle (already wide). The job looks expensive but really shouldn't be to bad as new plates will be real near the structure the old ones were mounted in (that seems to be the bulwarks by the pictures).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't there somethin' bout buried stainless always rusts with moisture present and no air??? (This is a real question)

 

Yep - IIRC, stainless requires the presence of oxygen to create an oxide layer on it's surface, which prevents further oxidation. Let it sit in stagnant water, it'll corrode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Online metals has the stainless, have them cut it to length and all the yard will have to do is round off the corners and drill the holes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

BajaHaHa2010634.jpg

 

 

 

 

That black bit of teak doesn't look promising...I'd be nervous.

 

Not my $, but I'd do them all as soon as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

BajaHaHa2010634.jpg

 

 

 

 

That black bit of teak doesn't look promising...I'd be nervous.

 

Not my $, but I'd do them all as soon as possible.

 

Yup, agreed. And it only took me 14 fricken hours to finally convince him of that.

 

Now then, that said, here's his latest plan-----Gene Gammon sent him some pics of another I52 that had the same problems. His idea/solution? let off the turnbuckles, Sawzall off the tops of all 8 chain plates, make eight new ones that will go on the outside of the hull (after chopping the dogshit out of both the rub rails and cap rails), mark the holes of the new ones and drill straight thru the hull and the existing ones, put on 8 appropriate sized backing plates on the inside of the hull at all 8 areas, and then bolt the hell out the whole shebang. I'm still not too sure about this entire procedure myself, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Oh yeah, fwiw, the work will be done by the boat yard next door. At least they have a sister yard in San Diego, so they can't be all that bad. I hope. And they bill at just $70.00 US per hour----plus materials. Regardless, this sailing adventure is now officially over. Back to Hell-A tomorrow afternoon.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

BajaHaHa2010634.jpg

 

 

 

 

That black bit of teak doesn't look promising...I'd be nervous.

 

Not my $, but I'd do them all as soon as possible.

 

Yup, agreed. And it only took me 14 fricken hours to finally convince him of that.

 

Now then, that said, here's his latest plan-----Gene Gammon sent him some pics of another I52 that had the same problems. His idea/solution? let off the turnbuckles, Sawzall off the tops of all 8 chain plates, make eight new ones that will go on the outside of the hull (after chopping the dogshit out of both the rub rails and cap rails), mark the holes of the new ones and drill straight thru the hull and the existing ones, put on 8 appropriate sized backing plates on the inside of the hull at all 8 areas, and then bolt the hell out the whole shebang. I'm still not too sure about this entire procedure myself, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Oh yeah, fwiw, the work will be done by the boat yard next door. At least they have a sister yard in San Diego, so they can't be all that bad. I hope. And they bill at just $70.00 US per hour----plus materials. Regardless, this sailing adventure is now officially over. Back to Hell-A tomorrow afternoon.........

 

Just curious. Is there a problem burying the old chainplates or will the moisture be cooked out and sealed? Will rust continue and swell/fracture the mount area? Is that a 1 year, 10 year or 50 year problem? Guessing the old chainplates aren't being removed(those that don't break).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting article on the x-rays. I did a bit of non destructive testing on industrial stainless welds to be used at a petrochemical plant. Technically it was Gamma, not that it matters. Bring your lead undies. My first day the guy I was working with handed me a box with a protector cup made of lead and said "Your choice-lead poisoning or gamma"! That "box" it comes is is very heavy! (For the shielding properties) no dropping on the boat. Sure would be much more interesting work than 10km of pipe welds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gamma radiation has higher energy than that of x-rays. Medical devices (CT, x-ray, mammo, etc) produce x-rays using x-ray tubes. Zap some electricity into the tube and blast some electrons out the other end sort of thing. Gamma radiation is usually the result of radiactive decay and is also used medically (nuclear medicine for example). Because of its higher energy special detectors are used (gamma cameras). Both gamma and x-ray are ionizion radiation meaning they interact with tissues of the body, so you shield yourself from both.

 

So anyway, what you used in your industrial testing was almost certainly x-ray machinery, not gamma.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gamma radiation has higher energy than that of x-rays. Medical devices (CT, x-ray, mammo, etc) produce x-rays using x-ray tubes. Zap some electricity into the tube and blast some electrons out the other end sort of thing. Gamma radiation is usually the result of radiactive decay and is also used medically (nuclear medicine for example). Because of its higher energy special detectors are used (gamma cameras). Both gamma and x-ray are ionizion radiation meaning they interact with tissues of the body, so you shield yourself from both.

 

So anyway, what you used in your industrial testing was almost certainly x-ray machinery, not gamma.

Umm, 'gamma radiation' and 'x-rays' are both high energy photons... historically there has been some differentiation between the two based on the energy levels and means of production but that is no longer true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gamma radiation has higher energy than that of x-rays. Medical devices (CT, x-ray, mammo, etc) produce x-rays using x-ray tubes. Zap some electricity into the tube and blast some electrons out the other end sort of thing. Gamma radiation is usually the result of radiactive decay and is also used medically (nuclear medicine for example). Because of its higher energy special detectors are used (gamma cameras). Both gamma and x-ray are ionizion radiation meaning they interact with tissues of the body, so you shield yourself from both.

 

So anyway, what you used in your industrial testing was almost certainly x-ray machinery, not gamma.

Umm, 'gamma radiation' and 'x-rays' are both high energy photons... historically there has been some differentiation between the two based on the energy levels and means of production but that is no longer true.

 

Its all relative eh? Typical gamma energies as i was taught are above 100kev, x-ray generally below 90kev. So by "high" energy i meant higher. I suppose its all semantics, but in the medical field there are gamma cameras, and they are completely different beasts than x-ray equipment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iridium Isotope (pill) deployed down the inside of the tube by a manual cable and handle-like an exploded window winder. Used a Tungsten shield on the tip so we didn't get too much of a dose. Still needed the health dept. tags checked monthly though. Used to be a Cobalt Isotope but Iridium has the shorter half life. No electricity required. Good for remote sites and other than the weight of the transport chamber, quite small and portable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites