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aloha27

Canadian sailor killed by pirates

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Hope they catch the bastards and give them the justice they deserve- life in prison

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Guest One of Five

Life in prison? Shoot the fuckers, chain them to a rock at low tide... in the Bay of Fundy.

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+1

 

scum of the earth don't deserve to live. waste of oxygen a source of CO2.

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Hope they catch the bastards and give them the justice they deserve- life in prison

 

Hey smart guy, you wanna offer to keep these pricks in your basement for forty-plus f'ng years? On your shilling?...........

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Posted · Hidden by White Lightnin', December 5, 2010 - typos
Hidden by White Lightnin', December 5, 2010 - typos

Fotta agree with the lead asprin theiry here. This little rock is already overcrowded enough and there just is not enough room to keep these leeches around longer than needed, I feel for the family but am hard pressed to say he was wrong in standing up to them. Who's to say they hadn't planned far worse for the girl and his death scared them off. There are worse things than dying.

Tonight I raise a glass to a man who died for his beliefs. Good, bad or indifferent he made his stand.

 

Here's to you

 

WL

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Hope they catch the bastards and give them the justice they deserve- life in prison

 

 

Life in prison? Shoot the fuckers, chain them to a rock at low tide... in the Bay of Fundy.

 

 

Hope they catch the bastards and give them the justice they deserve- life in prison

 

Hey smart guy, you wanna offer to keep these pricks in your basement for forty-plus f'ng years? On your shilling?...........

"punishment" is much more effective when it serves more as a deterrent than as actual punishment; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

Along those lines it might be appropriate to cut off thier hands, ears, & nose, cut out thier eyes and leave them alive for everyone else to see.

 

It may sound harsh & cruel but in the long run reduces the amount of sadness in the world.

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Hope they catch the bastards and give them the justice they deserve- life in prison

 

 

Life in prison? Shoot the fuckers, chain them to a rock at low tide... in the Bay of Fundy.

 

 

Hope they catch the bastards and give them the justice they deserve- life in prison

 

Hey smart guy, you wanna offer to keep these pricks in your basement for forty-plus f'ng years? On your shilling?...........

"punishment" is much more effective when it serves more as a deterrent than as actual punishment; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

Along those lines it might be appropriate to cut off thier hands, ears, & nose, cut out thier eyes and leave them alive for everyone else to see.

 

It may sound harsh & cruel but in the long run reduces the amount of sadness in the world.

 

You forgot to light them on fire, then have a public stoning.

Seems fair and deserving considering they killed the guy, defending his own property, in front of his daughter.

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Disembowel them on a boat, then drop them stll alive into the sea, for the sharks to get them.

 

Film it, then show the tape in Honduras and all over, to show other pirates what will happen to them...

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paavo says - "the Navy needs to send destroyers there to patrol for pirates."

 

SailorMan replied - "Couple of comments - the Canadian navy? Right.

Secondly, these people likely boarded from a rowboat or canoe - they are thieves, not pirates, a la Somalia as you've been hearing in the news.

Third - what makes you think the Honduras are going to permit a breach of their sovereignity?

 

In these sorts of situations, sailors know, or should know, that they need to take appropriate precautions. This sort of thing is frequently discussed amongst long distance sailors.

This guy got caught out by a storm and took what appeared to be the prudent course, anchoring in what appeared to be a safe harbour."

 

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/12/04/honduras-canadian.html

by the lee, care to tell us all what the difference between a "pirate" and a "thief" is? sounds like these two were attacked by a group of people whose intent was to rob them. are they desperate enough to attach a cruise liner or a cargo ship? perhaps not, but they are still pirates, they are still criminals, and they should still be dealt with appropriately.

 

as to why honduras might allow intervention from law enforcement or military to work within their waters? how about over $190 million in tourist dollars every year?

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Horrible tragedy. I wonder what the laws have to say in respect to gun ownership when in international waters.

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The Atlantic coast of Central America has some of the most beautiful spots I've ever been to: Roatan, the Rio Dulce, the San Blas, Belize's barrier islands...just incredible coasts with diving, sailing, history, seafood, and people all that are gems.

 

But it's a fucking cesspool. Decades of the fucking moronic War on Drugs and the maritime cocaine superhighway that it created have left a legacy of lawlessness and crackheads. Combine that with the thousands of guns laying around and paramilitary training from decades of fucking cold war arming from both the US and USSR and you have a place where there is always something lurking around the corner.

 

I've slept on a lot of those beaches, cruised a boat in the Rio, and ran a dive boat out of those ports, and I worried on a lot of nights. It's a damned shame this happened, and a damned shame that it won't be cleaned up anytime soon. Hell, even in tourist-centric Costa Rica, the Atlantic Coast city of Limon has the highest murder rate of anywhere in those parts. And the worst part about it? Between the banana wars, the drug war and cold war, US politicians and companies are responsible for a lot of the conditions leading to it.

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I was warned twice within the first eight hours upon arriving in Limon to not walk around alone after sunset. And I'm a pretty big guy, was in good shape back then and 34. Kinda a sucky place.

 

Nowadays? The Nurse has even curtailed my solo drives down Baja to La Paz or Cabo like I've been doing since '75---she says no mas. Crap.

 

Thanx, Mr. Drug War Keeper Onner Dudes, thanx for nada.........

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... ...

"punishment" is much more effective when it serves more as a deterrent than as actual punishment; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

Along those lines it might be appropriate to cut off thier hands, ears, & nose, cut out thier eyes and leave them alive for everyone else to see.

 

It may sound harsh & cruel but in the long run reduces the amount of sadness in the world.

 

Agreed on the basics, but your solution leaves somebody else the job of feeding them. Also it overlooks some of the psychology of deterrence, which is that nobody thinks it's going to happen to -them-.

 

Cut off one hand, one foot, put out one eye, and brand them across the forehead "THIEF." Then offer them a few crusts and a place to sleep with only a few rats -if- they go around all the schools & other public places telling anybody who will listen, "This not only can happen to you, if you do what I did, it -will- happen to you."

 

FB- Doug

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Anybody know what the recidivism rate is for shoplifters, robbers, pickpockets, muggers and thieves is in Saudi Arabia?.........

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these comments here are worse than what any pirates did,do or will do to sustain life,theirs---bunch o white collar pussies you lot are...this is earth,we are animals ,survival at all costs---ever think about the history of that part of the world and why its a shithole and why they plunder rich white folks strolling thru with their naive,diversified stock holdings attitude?

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these comments here are worse than what any pirates did,do or will do to sustain life,theirs---bunch o white collar pussies you lot are...this is earth,we are animals ,survival at all costs---ever think about the history of that part of the world and why its a shithole and why they plunder rich white folks strolling thru with their naive,diversified stock holdings attitude?

 

I can already tell without being there that both Darwin and God were out fishing the day your dad's brother knocked up your mom.........

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I've got plenty of Canadian friends, and I would first like to pass on my condolences to the Egrm@jer family. But let's shine another light on this before we start lighting our torches and grabbing our foruming implements. What would you say if a Honduran man was stabbed and killed during a robbery attempt in, let's say, Toronto while on a five pin bowling tournament tour? Well, if this was FPBA (5 Pin Bowling Anarchy) it would be pretty much be the same. sounds silly doesn't it...

 

Let's keep this respectful and mature. This man's family might read this thread one day and not find it as comforting as it should read.

 

Again, my condolences to the family. Eight bells mate.

 

Note: this thread is 20 posts in and this is ONLY the second mention of condolences to a sailing Brother. Paul Romain Tober gets it, what's with the rest of you?

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You're right B/Boy...it's probably just the pitch forks talking...........

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Horrible tragedy. I wonder what the laws have to say in respect to gun ownership when in international waters.

 

Tragic. Condolences to the family.

 

As for laws on guns in international waters, duh, there are no laws on guns in international waters, gun laws are specific to countries. Here in the US if you are licensed to carry your gun then you can carry it on your boat - when you get to a foreign port you got deal with the authorities there.

 

My experience, declaring a gun in a foreign port is way more hassle than of piece of mind it provides is worth.

 

Many debates on guns out there, both for and against.

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"The bad news is that those assets are mostly from the US, the same country whose immoral banana wars, cold wars, and the insanely idiotic War On Drugs helped create the poverty and gun-fueled violence that leads to this kind of piracy today."

 

Will you blow hards please stick to sailing and leave the left-wing BS to The New York Times?

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way to use a sailors death to try and propagate your anti-US garbage. I'm sure his family rests well knowing he's just a vessel for you to float your geopolitical beliefs on.

 

and I'm sure the world would be a better place if cocaine trafficking was left to run unchecked for the last couple decades. hell, they'd probably all be living in the lap of luxury down there just like all the poppy farmers in Afghanistan.

 

stick to sailing

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Torture and extra-judicial executions have no place in ANY civilized society.

Catch them.

Give them a fair and quick trial.

Hang them in a public square.

The British used to then display the bodies in port cities as a warning to others back in the day IIRC.

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My sympathy to the family.......... You have to understand, The author blames U.S. because his drugs cost more. Pretty shameful considering what happened.

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Torture and extra-judicial executions have no place in ANY civilized society.

Catch them.

Give them a fair and quick trial.

Hang them in a public square.

The British used to then display the bodies in port cities as a warning to others back in the day IIRC.

 

So, who do you base the civilized moniker on the murderer or the victim?

If you commit a civilized crime ,you should get a civilized punishment. This case...not so much.

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All the retribution talk aside, which I sort of agree with...would have been a good idea to have posted armed watch. These dorks did not swim to the boat and a shotgun and AK should have been good 'nough...

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This is a senseless tragedy. My heartfelt condolences to the family and friends.

 

Now speaking of senseless, I'm really getting sick and tired of the political moralizing of our uber-lefty editor. Can we just stick to the point? Saying that the war on drugs has impoverished the region is just plain stupid. If anything, the criminalization of narcotics makes the cash crop more lucrative for the growers. I'm not sure the war on drugs has any adverse impact on any other part of their economy. Sorry for the hijack, but Ed started it.

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these comments here are worse than what any pirates did,do or will do to sustain life,theirs---bunch o white collar pussies you lot are...this is earth,we are animals ,survival at all costs---ever think about the history of that part of the world and why its a shithole and why they plunder rich white folks strolling thru with their naive,diversified stock holdings attitude?

 

I think the best comfort to offer the family is some evidence that this crime will be much less likely to be repeated in the future.

 

And while I may have ended up as a white-collar pussy, for many years (a couple decades actually) I worked in/around boilers. I don't have to give up place or precedence to anybody in the hurly-burly scuffle for existence, thank you.

 

If you think that poverty is a good excuse for crime, then why don't you take all your net worth, convert it to some easily useable form of value (and while the US may not be everybody's ideal, our dollars are still the de-facto international currency), and go strolling along thru the stews of the world. You could make it easier by hanging a revolver with one bullet on a string from the back of your collar.

 

Shucks, for that matter, you could just come to my house with it. B)

 

Apologists for murderous barbarians are just as bad as the m.b.'s themselves. You should be sentenced to go live among them, THEN you can proclaim your moral superiority to the world.

 

- Doug

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We don't have revenge, we have punishment.

If you commit a crime so bad that you forfeit your life, a civilized society won't torture you to death.

Are rapists raped?

Are arsonists burned to death?

Do we follow car thieves around and steal every car they ever get even if they bought it for cash?

 

Hanging pirates is what they deserve. Torturing them first only diminishes the torturers. It isn't like they'll go do it again after they're hung :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Torture and extra-judicial executions have no place in ANY civilized society.

Catch them.

Give them a fair and quick trial.

Hang them in a public square.

The British used to then display the bodies in port cities as a warning to others back in the day IIRC.

 

So, who do you base the civilized moniker on the murderer or the victim?

If you commit a civilized crime ,you should get a civilized punishment. This case...not so much.

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way to use a sailors death to try and propagate your anti-US garbage. I'm sure his family rests well knowing he's just a vessel for you to float your geopolitical beliefs on.

 

and I'm sure the world would be a better place if cocaine trafficking was left to run unchecked for the last couple decades. hell, they'd probably all be living in the lap of luxury down there just like all the poppy farmers in Afghanistan.

 

stick to sailing

 

+1

 

Well said newbie!

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This is a senseless tragedy. My heartfelt condolences to the family and friends.

 

Now speaking of senseless, I'm really getting sick and tired of the political moralizing of our uber-lefty editor. Can we just stick to the point? Saying that the war on drugs has impoverished the region is just plain stupid. If anything, the criminalization of narcotics makes the cash crop more lucrative for the growers. I'm not sure the war on drugs has any adverse impact on any other part of their economy. Sorry for the hijack, but Ed started it.

 

Spot on Mate! The Editor is completely in the wrong to use this sailors death to promote his political views. Take it to PA!

 

My thoughts and prayers go out to his friends and family. The daughter must me an emotional wreck. Let's hope with time she can get past this and move on with her life.

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The Atlantic coast of Central America has some of the most beautiful spots I've ever been to: Roatan, the Rio Dulce, the San Blas, Belize's barrier islands...just incredible coasts with diving, sailing, history, seafood, and people all that are gems.

 

But it's a fucking cesspool. Decades of the fucking moronic War on Drugs and the maritime cocaine superhighway that it created have left a legacy of lawlessness and crackheads. Combine that with the thousands of guns laying around and paramilitary training from decades of fucking cold war arming from both the US and USSR and you have a place where there is always something lurking around the corner.

 

I've slept on a lot of those beaches, cruised a boat in the Rio, and ran a dive boat out of those ports, and I worried on a lot of nights. It's a damned shame this happened, and a damned shame that it won't be cleaned up anytime soon. Hell, even in tourist-centric Costa Rica, the Atlantic Coast city of Limon has the highest murder rate of anywhere in those parts. And the worst part about it? Between the banana wars, the drug war and cold war, US politicians and companies are responsible for a lot of the conditions leading to it.

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MY condolences to the family, especially the surviving daughter, whose trauma I can barely imagine. May her peace of mind return in time, and may she also be able to set sail again to cruise to some of the beautiful places of this planet in peace, security and happiness someday.\

 

----------------------------------------------

Take a true tragedy, and instead of attempting compassion and condolences to the surviving family, use it as a forum to blame the United States (and even the former Soviet Union) for the actions of a couple of murdering local bastard thieves, who believe me when I tell ya Clean, certainly weren't thinking fuking USA/CIA actions in Central America over the decades and then targeting this Canadian sailor/

 

If you think of this as a result of some historic American military malfeasance in the area , gringo you betta get real. De veras hombre, que mierda que dices.

 

The 1% owning 99% of the land is the historic Latin American distribution of wealth and hence power. This Latin-americanization inequity is now becoming quite well entrenched in the USA, and we are well on the way to joining our brothers below the border in this tremendously unequal distribution of money, goods and power. As the middle class is further pushed down, the wealthy few become even more rich and powerful, keep a weather eye out Clean, sounds like there are a lot of mean as hell SA bastards out there.

 

To make matters worse, instead of the aforementioned emotions expressed towards this senseless murder as primary, keep the usual SA penchant for an absolutely insane amount of unreasonable, unrepentant, and irrationally expressed anger, sounding like the Taliban themselves would be considered humanitarians by comparison in their treatment of criminals in their territory.

 

SA on CA. Sailing Anarchy on Central America. The Wor(l)d According to Clean.

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I hope that the daughter is doing okay considering what she has been though. It is tough to read about these things. They seem to happen far too often (once is too often).

 

It's a true shame that this stuff happens. It seems that things keep getting worse. The coast of Venezuela was one of the first to go, now it seems as though there are places all over that are dangerous to visit.I think everyone who is critiquing the ED, need to STFU. Adding petty criticism detracts from the core of the story. Someone died unnecessarily.

 

My condolences to the family. For me this just shows the stupidity of international gun laws. Everyone should be allowed to carry a shotgun on their boat. Maybe not remove it from the boat, but at least have it. That said, without knowing what exactly happened there is no way to know if it could have been prevented, that way or otherwise. Aside from that maybe the Captain wasn't too keen on hurting the folks that robbed him. Who knows, maybe it was a couple of armed kids.

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We don't have revenge, we have punishment.

 

And the difference is?

 

 

 

If you commit a crime so bad that you forfeit your life, a civilized society won't torture you to death.

Are rapists raped?

Are arsonists burned to death?

Do we follow car thieves around and steal every car they ever get even if they bought it for cash?

 

Hanging pirates is what they deserve. Torturing them first only diminishes the torturers. It isn't like they'll go do it again after they're hung :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Agreed on torture.

 

However the difference between REVENGE and PUNISHMENT: one is institutionalized and consistent, the other is a matter of individual behavior.

 

My own feeling is that most industrialized societies have gone much too far in "civilizing" punishment; to the point where it is meaningless. The U.S. Constitution bans "cruel & unusual punishment" but that was in a day when kids would get put in the stocks overnight for egging a businessman's house. Getting tarred & feathered was relatively common. Most of the these down-home sounding punishments ended in a horrible death. Unintentional perhaps, but common.

 

If a person broke into my home and threatened harm to my family, the state (currently) allows me to defend them. If a person succeeds in doing harm to my home and/or family then I cannot chase him down & horsewhip him (although this used to be commonly accepted). However if the state, with the consent of a majority of citizens, decides to mete out public flogging for certain types of crime, then it becomes justice.

 

Period.

 

And I for one would like to see it happen.

 

 

Torture and extra-judicial executions have no place in ANY civilized society.

Catch them.

Give them a fair and quick trial.

Hang them in a public square.

The British used to then display the bodies in port cities as a warning to others back in the day IIRC.

 

So, who do you base the civilized moniker on the murderer or the victim?

If you commit a civilized crime ,you should get a civilized punishment. This case...not so much.

 

 

I bet at least one of you all have read 'Starship Troopers'

 

FB- Doug

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Fair winds my sailing brother, may the first mate find solace in your memory.

 

How this gets twisted into the 'blame America first' line is beyond rational thought - I mean, it couldn't possibly be the trigger-man's fault, could it ?

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We read about it in the local newspaper. Hadn't realized he was a local sailor from St Catharines,Ontario. I thought for a moment we could organize some sailors to help retrieve the boat for the family. Looks like the boat washed up on the beach and by now picked clean, Sad on all counts. Condolences to the family and I hope his daughter remembers all the good memories and can get past this tragic event.

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Saying that the war on drugs has impoverished the region is just plain stupid

 

They don't grow much in the way of drugs in Honduras - a little weed, but that's all. They kill each other over the right to move cocaine - the only one that matters - from one border to another by boat, truck and car. The gangs that the trafficking funds use the money they earn to buy guns and power, which lets them branch out into kidnapping, extortion, and human trafficking. Do you really not know this?

 

Here, pick up this book so you can get educated. It focuses on Juarez, but the principles are the same all the way down to Panama along the cocaine superhighway. It's likely a lot worse where the isthmus narrows - drugs have a lot of routes across the permeable US/Mexican border, but there's just not that many ways for them to move in Central America so the harm is concentrated along each coast in a mostly narrow strip.

 

Either do some reading or else do what I did - travel on foot from California to Columbia and then spend a few years living along the coasts. You'll be astonished at just how fucking all-encompassing the drug trade can be with the dollars and guns attached to it, and how widespread its effects are felt.

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And yeah, it's a terrible tragedy that this sailor lost his life and that his daughter was there to see it, but the bigger tragedy is the culture of murder and the hundreds or thousands that lose their lives every year down there to it. Hang the guys who did it, but don't run from changing the underlying problems...

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And yeah, it's a terrible tragedy that this sailor lost his life and that his daughter was there to see it, but the bigger tragedy is the culture of murder and the hundreds or thousands that lose their lives every year down there to it. Hang the guys who did it, but don't run from changing the underlying problems...

 

I guess if we want to look at the big picture then we gotta accept that the end user is the source of funding for the drug trade - if we didn't buy it they couldn't sell it.

 

That said, maybe this should be a separate debate on PA.

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maybe this should be a separate debate on PA.

 

It's not just about the end user - it's also very much about the history. But you're probably right about PA, and I'll end by encouraging everyone to learn more about the kind of things going on not far to our South. There's some crazy shit happening down there, and it's not getting any better...

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maybe this should be a separate debate on PA.

 

It's not just about the end user - it's also very much about the history. But you're probably right about PA, and I'll end by encouraging everyone to learn more about the kind of things going on not far to our South. There's some crazy shit happening down there, and it's not getting any better...

 

I'm probably gonna get slammed for pasting this....but tough shit. Because it concerns Central America (and Mex), which means that it affects sailors that traverse (via boat or land) both sides of this area. And also because alotta you here are too lazy to click on Clean's link and read it. This is not a P/A thing, it's a mariner/sailor/seaman/voyager/traveler thing, that affects thousands of boaters every year.........

 

 

Crime in Central America: The culture of death

 

Inspired by America's Latino communities, members of El Salvador's bloodthirsty gangs express their tribal loyalty with tattoos ­ even though they may mark them out for an early death

 

By Pablo Trincia

 

Friday, 15 September 2006

 

Sitting handcuffed in a sweltering police station in El Salvador's capital, San Salvador, a 22-year-old man waits as a police officer searches for the keys to a damp, grubby cell where he will spend the night. "Man, I'm innocent, I've done nothing," he says, shrugging with a smile as he leans against a filthy blue wall. "They've just arrested me because of my tattoos. Anyway, I don't care. Tomorrow I'll be back out there with the other homeboys."

 

Approach him and you will understand what Ismael means by "my tattoos": his body - from forehead to ankles - is etched with names, acronyms, numbers, signs and creepy symbols, as if it had been painted by an alchemist or a freemason. Spanish and English slang words mingle on his legs. Skulls and monstrous figures cover his arms. If you were Salvadorean, you would not even need to ask him what he was; you could just read him. His nose, cheeks, temples and chin bear the indelible stamp of one of Central America's fiercest and deadliest gangs: the Mara Salvatrucha.

 

This young thug has spent most of his life as a Mara Salvatrucha member. Recruited at 10, he remembers clearly the two ordeals he suffered as part of his initiation. First, a group of gang members beat him for 13 seconds. He said he had up to 30 blows to his face and body. Then he was forced to participate in an execution of an enemy gang member, who was beheaded in front of him. "I had nightmares about that guy for about a month," Ismael says, laughing hysterically. "He would haunt me at night carrying his head in his own hands. I guess it's normal. I was just a little kid. After a while you get used to it, and it's almost like a game. It's fun. You find yourself teasing someone who is dying in front of you. Until you become addicted to killing."

 

Fourteen years after a peace agreement between the government and a leftist rebel group ended a long and bloody civil war in this small, unfortunate country that looks out on the Pacific Ocean, El Salvador now has to deal with a new wave of dreadful violence and the resurgence of an extreme tribalism that is posing a severe threat to its social and economic stability.

 

Crime rates are rocketing throughout the Central American region as two rival gangs, or maras, are rapidly developing into massive tentacled criminal organisations that are turning their barrios and towns into urban guerrilla strongholds.

 

These youth gangs, known as Mara 18 (or M-18) and Mara Salvatrucha (or M-13), have built their reputations over the years with a constant barrage of brutal attacks on the population, while fighting each other for control of their own territories. By recruiting youngsters from the slums of San Salvador, Guate-mala City and Tegucigalpa, and turning them into thieves, drug-runners and ruthless killers, the maras have developed an international network now estimated to number between 60,000 and 300,000 members across at least nine countries, including the United States and Spain. They traffic in arms and smuggle drugs, control prostitution, and make millions by collecting protection money from truck-drivers, shopkeepers, and even private households in their own barrios and shantytowns.

 

Comply with their rules, and you will live. Refuse, and in a few days the police may find your body - or parts of it - in a dump or on the side of a road. This explains why few people here dare to wander around town after dusk, especially in the large urban areas. Those who do run the risk of ending up in the next morning edition with a headline above their picture saying, "lo mataron" (They killed him). With an average of 10 murders a day in a population of less than seven million, El Salvador is among the world's most crime-ridden countries.

 

Oddly, although today the maras virtually control large portions of Central America's informal and shadow economy, their roots lie in the US, where they were formed four decades ago, among Latino communities. At the end of the 1950s, as Mexican immigrants began cramming into the suburbs of San Diego and Los Angeles, local groups were formed among the youth to defend their areas from the rising Afro-American and Asian gangs.

 

In the 1960s, some of these groups merged, giving birth to the Mara 18, named after 18th street in Los Angeles, where they roamed. While initially composed almost exclusively of Mexicans, with the years, and the influx of immigrants from other Latin American countries, the M-18 dropped its nationalistic raison d'être and recruited manpower from other nationalities, thereby growing bigger.

 

In the 1980s, as civil war raged in El Salvador between an oligarchic, right-wing government and the FMLN leftist guerrillas, thousands of Salvadorean families sought refuge in the US. Again, the youngsters grouped to defend their poor neighbourhoods, forming the Mara Salvatrucha, a mixed name where Salva stands for their nationality and trucho is a slang word meaning "alert". The new mara adopted the number 13 as the gang's logo, a reference to the districts of southern California, whose origin no one seems to recall. Bloody confrontations ensued between the two gangs. By 1992, when a peace deal was finally agreed between the warring factions in El Salvador, the Latino gangs had spread all over America.

 

The US, which had played a key role in the civil war, funnelling millions of dollars in aid to the Salvadorean government to prevent what they saw as a Communist threat, now started repatriating thousands of illegal immigrants, many with criminal records, back to their countries of origin. Many of them found themselves in places shattered by years of warfare, countries which they had left when they were children, and they had no family support, no social services, no job opportunities, and did not properly know the language. It did not take long for them to re-form their maras in the poorest barrios and shantytowns, where thousands of children had been left orphaned, homeless and hopeless. A weakened state and a newly trained police force could do little to stop them. The gangs quickly took over the underworld, enriching themselves and imposing their rule.

 

"Los Angeles was rough, I mean, we had to fight the other Latinos, the blacks and the Asians," says Skid, a Salvatrucha warrior, as he patrols his street in Villa Mariona, a barrio in the outskirts of San Salvador. At 33, he is considered old; most of his fellow thugs do not survive their twenties. He has various bullet scars, and other ones on his tattooed body. "This is part of the gangster's life; it's the vida loca. Only the strongest survive; you have to kill before you get killed. That's why, if I come across some of those bastards from the M-18, I won't hesitate. Bang, bang, bang. They'll be dead in a few seconds."

 

None of the mareros can explain the ideological hatred that exists between these gangs. While the roots of the Salvatrucha/M-18 rivalry run deep into fierce past battles over territory and identity in LA, both maras are now mixed up with Salvadorans, Hondurans, Mexicans and Guatemalans, leaving them with no apparent reason to engage in warfare. This is why many children from the same barrio, who grew up playing together, today find themselves hating each other to death on opposite fronts: if he has a tattoo with your number, he is your brother. If not, kill him.

 

What the two gangs do have in common is the belief that life and death are somehow intermingled. This belief partly explains the bones and devils tattooed on their bodies, as well as their satanic rituals, such as hacking a victim to death and scattering the organs on the ground in a pentagonal shape.

 

"I joined the Mara-18 because my father kicked me out when I was a boy, and I happened to live in an M-18 district," says Jose, a 23-year-old gang member who has just been arrested. "Now the mara is my only family. I've got the number 18 tattooed all over my body. That's the only reason why I got arrested."

 

A police officer says, "Yeah right, so whose stuff is this, huh?", tossing a bunch of stolen rings, bracelets, necklaces and watches in one hand. "We caught you and your friends red-handed right around the corner. You were robbing people at gunpoint on a bus. And you had bags of marijuana on you."

 

Drug-smuggling is among the maras' most profitable activities. As their power began to grow, the drug cartels in Medellin, Cali and Tijuana realised that the thousands of mara urban warriors could be of considerable use. They recruited them as hit-men and drug-runners who would smuggle cocaine from Colombia to Mexico, on its way to the US. This meant even more cash flowing to mara upper echelons, and even more power. Today, classified reports from the Salvadorean National Public Security Council reveal that, given their strategic geographical location between the Americas, the Central American gangs are planning to create a third force to compete with the Colombians and the Mexicans for the multibillion-dollar prize that is drug trafficking. Still more deaths are expected.

 

So far, any attempt by the government of El Salvador and those of neighbouring countries to curb this threat has failed. Three years ago, the former Salvadorean president Francisco Flores launched what he called the Plan Mano Dura (Strong Hand Plan) in an effort to reduce criminal activities by tightening up penalties and sanctions against the mareros. Some reactions were brutal. On Christmas Eve 2004, thugs from the Mara Salvatrucha attacked a public bus on the outskirts of San Pedro Sula, Honduras, shooting and hacking to death 28 commuters. Among them were four children. The killers left a blood-soaked note, insulting the government for its anti-mara laws.

 

"We are not animals, we're just human beings," says Flor de Maria, a 23-year-old with two children. She was 12 when she joined the Mara-18, both parents having died in the Salvadorean civil war. Today she carries the gang number on her forehead and neck. "I want to remove these tattoos, but I can't," she says. "The other gang members will kill me. It's dangerous for me to go outside. I was already shot by the Salvatruchos. I don't want my kids to become like that. I just want a job and a normal life."

 

But no one in this poor, crime-ridden country would hire anyone wearing gang marks. Those who join will be members for life, knowing they have nothing to lose. They will rob, smuggle or kill to survive. Once they choose this path to death, there is no turning back.

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Latest.

 

CBC link

 

A Canadian woman who says she used a flare gun to scare off attackers who shot and killed her father on his boat in Honduras is back in Ontario, her relatives say.

 

Myda Egrmajer, 24, arrived in Toronto on Sunday and is now on her way to Manitoulin Island in northern Ontario with her mother and brother, said her aunt Merrillynn Wilson, who lives in Mahone Bay, N.S.

 

Egrmajer seems to be holding up after the ordeal, said Wilson.

 

Milan Egrmajer, 55, of Ottawa was killed after gunmen boarded his sailboat Thursday night. A semi-retired consulting engineer, he had left on his trip from Port Dalhousie, Ont., in 2008. In November, Myda joined him in the Caribbean.

 

Due to bad weather, the two were in a lagoon near an island about 30 kilometres north of the Honduran coast, off the port community of Tela, when their boat was swarmed by gunmen who tried to rob them.

 

Myda used a flare gun to scare off the assailants, then remained on the sailboat for several hours until people on another boat arrived to help her. Her father was shot four times in the chest and abdomen.

 

Physically unharmed but traumatized, Myda was later taken to Belize.

 

Heather Marshall, a friend of Milan Egrmajer, said she was shocked at the news of his death.

 

"It's absolutely unbelievable that something like this can happen. All weekend we kept saying this happens in the movies or in fiction. You just never expect this to happen to anyone you know, she said.

 

"But clearly these things do happen. It's a terrible loss, but it's so hard to grasp because it doesn't seem real."

 

There's no consolation, Marshall said.

 

"At least he died doing something he loved with someone he really loved — his daughter."

 

 

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/12/06/egrmaier-honduras006.html#ixzz17OToIV00

 

Very frightening. My wife can't understand why anyone would go there. Seems like such a risk. Places like this aren't unique, though -- and never have been. Damn shame.

 

Peace.

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maybe this should be a separate debate on PA.

 

It's not just about the end user - it's also very much about the history. But you're probably right about PA, and I'll end by encouraging everyone to learn more about the kind of things going on not far to our South. There's some crazy shit happening down there, and it's not getting any better...

 

I'm probably gonna get slammed for pasting this....but tough shit. Because it concerns Central America (and Mex), which means that it affects sailors that traverse (via boat or land) both sides of this area. And also because alotta you here are too lazy to click on Clean's link and read it. This is not a P/A thing, it's a mariner/sailor/seaman/voyager/traveler thing, that affects thousands of boaters every year.........

http://en.wikipedia....enz_Guzm%C3%A1n

 

 

 

The Crime of American Overreaching Guilt tripping

Fuck it Clean, you got tons of MS 13 members here in NY too. And I really don't think they are the majority of boat thieves in the area. Doesn't mean shit in relation to this murder of the Canadian sailor. You want to attribute sociological causation to the wanton unplanned murder of a sailor in a backwater harbor by a couple of likely to have been drug taking alcoholic impoverished central americans w/o a whit of thought about the us, soviet union, ms 13, or anything else except wtf they could take off that nice looking rich man's boat where they happened to be.

Sometimes Clean, a cigar is just a cigar.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Crime of American Overreaching Guilt tripping

americans confuse senseless murder with their nation's past sordid history in relation to central america.

http://en.wikipedia....enz_Guzm%C3%A1n

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crime in Central America: The culture of death

 

Inspired by America's Latino communities, members of El Salvador's bloodthirsty gangs express their tribal loyalty with tattoos ­ even though they may mark them out for an early death

 

By Pablo Trincia

 

Friday, 15 September 2006

 

Sitting handcuffed in a sweltering police station in El Salvador's capital, San Salvador, a 22-year-old man waits as a police officer searches for the keys to a damp, grubby cell where he will spend the night. "Man, I'm innocent, I've done nothing," he says, shrugging with a smile as he leans against a filthy blue wall. "They've just arrested me because of my tattoos. Anyway, I don't care. Tomorrow I'll be back out there with the other homeboys."

 

Approach him and you will understand what Ismael means by "my tattoos": his body - from forehead to ankles - is etched with names, acronyms, numbers, signs and creepy symbols, as if it had been painted by an alchemist or a freemason. Spanish and English slang words mingle on his legs. Skulls and monstrous figures cover his arms. If you were Salvadorean, you would not even need to ask him what he was; you could just read him. His nose, cheeks, temples and chin bear the indelible stamp of one of Central America's fiercest and deadliest gangs: the Mara Salvatrucha.

 

This young thug has spent most of his life as a Mara Salvatrucha member. Recruited at 10, he remembers clearly the two ordeals he suffered as part of his initiation. First, a group of gang members beat him for 13 seconds. He said he had up to 30 blows to his face and body. Then he was forced to participate in an execution of an enemy gang member, who was beheaded in front of him. "I had nightmares about that guy for about a month," Ismael says, laughing hysterically. "He would haunt me at night carrying his head in his own hands. I guess it's normal. I was just a little kid. After a while you get used to it, and it's almost like a game. It's fun. You find yourself teasing someone who is dying in front of you. Until you become addicted to killing."

 

Fourteen years after a peace agreement between the government and a leftist rebel group ended a long and bloody civil war in this small, unfortunate country that looks out on the Pacific Ocean, El Salvador now has to deal with a new wave of dreadful violence and the resurgence of an extreme tribalism that is posing a severe threat to its social and economic stability.

 

Crime rates are rocketing throughout the Central American region as two rival gangs, or maras, are rapidly developing into massive tentacled criminal organisations that are turning their barrios and towns into urban guerrilla strongholds.

 

These youth gangs, known as Mara 18 (or M-18) and Mara Salvatrucha (or M-13), have built their reputations over the years with a constant barrage of brutal attacks on the population, while fighting each other for control of their own territories. By recruiting youngsters from the slums of San Salvador, Guate-mala City and Tegucigalpa, and turning them into thieves, drug-runners and ruthless killers, the maras have developed an international network now estimated to number between 60,000 and 300,000 members across at least nine countries, including the United States and Spain. They traffic in arms and smuggle drugs, control prostitution, and make millions by collecting protection money from truck-drivers, shopkeepers, and even private households in their own barrios and shantytowns.

 

Comply with their rules, and you will live. Refuse, and in a few days the police may find your body - or parts of it - in a dump or on the side of a road. This explains why few people here dare to wander around town after dusk, especially in the large urban areas. Those who do run the risk of ending up in the next morning edition with a headline above their picture saying, "lo mataron" (They killed him). With an average of 10 murders a day in a population of less than seven million, El Salvador is among the world's most crime-ridden countries.

 

Oddly, although today the maras virtually control large portions of Central America's informal and shadow economy, their roots lie in the US, where they were formed four decades ago, among Latino communities. At the end of the 1950s, as Mexican immigrants began cramming into the suburbs of San Diego and Los Angeles, local groups were formed among the youth to defend their areas from the rising Afro-American and Asian gangs.

 

In the 1960s, some of these groups merged, giving birth to the Mara 18, named after 18th street in Los Angeles, where they roamed. While initially composed almost exclusively of Mexicans, with the years, and the influx of immigrants from other Latin American countries, the M-18 dropped its nationalistic raison d'être and recruited manpower from other nationalities, thereby growing bigger.

 

In the 1980s, as civil war raged in El Salvador between an oligarchic, right-wing government and the FMLN leftist guerrillas, thousands of Salvadorean families sought refuge in the US. Again, the youngsters grouped to defend their poor neighbourhoods, forming the Mara Salvatrucha, a mixed name where Salva stands for their nationality and trucho is a slang word meaning "alert". The new mara adopted the number 13 as the gang's logo, a reference to the districts of southern California, whose origin no one seems to recall. Bloody confrontations ensued between the two gangs. By 1992, when a peace deal was finally agreed between the warring factions in El Salvador, the Latino gangs had spread all over America.

 

The US, which had played a key role in the civil war, funnelling millions of dollars in aid to the Salvadorean government to prevent what they saw as a Communist threat, now started repatriating thousands of illegal immigrants, many with criminal records, back to their countries of origin. Many of them found themselves in places shattered by years of warfare, countries which they had left when they were children, and they had no family support, no social services, no job opportunities, and did not properly know the language. It did not take long for them to re-form their maras in the poorest barrios and shantytowns, where thousands of children had been left orphaned, homeless and hopeless. A weakened state and a newly trained police force could do little to stop them. The gangs quickly took over the underworld, enriching themselves and imposing their rule.

 

"Los Angeles was rough, I mean, we had to fight the other Latinos, the blacks and the Asians," says Skid, a Salvatrucha warrior, as he patrols his street in Villa Mariona, a barrio in the outskirts of San Salvador. At 33, he is considered old; most of his fellow thugs do not survive their twenties. He has various bullet scars, and other ones on his tattooed body. "This is part of the gangster's life; it's the vida loca. Only the strongest survive; you have to kill before you get killed. That's why, if I come across some of those bastards from the M-18, I won't hesitate. Bang, bang, bang. They'll be dead in a few seconds."

 

None of the mareros can explain the ideological hatred that exists between these gangs. While the roots of the Salvatrucha/M-18 rivalry run deep into fierce past battles over territory and identity in LA, both maras are now mixed up with Salvadorans, Hondurans, Mexicans and Guatemalans, leaving them with no apparent reason to engage in warfare. This is why many children from the same barrio, who grew up playing together, today find themselves hating each other to death on opposite fronts: if he has a tattoo with your number, he is your brother. If not, kill him.

 

What the two gangs do have in common is the belief that life and death are somehow intermingled. This belief partly explains the bones and devils tattooed on their bodies, as well as their satanic rituals, such as hacking a victim to death and scattering the organs on the ground in a pentagonal shape.

 

"I joined the Mara-18 because my father kicked me out when I was a boy, and I happened to live in an M-18 district," says Jose, a 23-year-old gang member who has just been arrested. "Now the mara is my only family. I've got the number 18 tattooed all over my body. That's the only reason why I got arrested."

 

A police officer says, "Yeah right, so whose stuff is this, huh?", tossing a bunch of stolen rings, bracelets, necklaces and watches in one hand. "We caught you and your friends red-handed right around the corner. You were robbing people at gunpoint on a bus. And you had bags of marijuana on you."

 

Drug-smuggling is among the maras' most profitable activities. As their power began to grow, the drug cartels in Medellin, Cali and Tijuana realised that the thousands of mara urban warriors could be of considerable use. They recruited them as hit-men and drug-runners who would smuggle cocaine from Colombia to Mexico, on its way to the US. This meant even more cash flowing to mara upper echelons, and even more power. Today, classified reports from the Salvadorean National Public Security Council reveal that, given their strategic geographical location between the Americas, the Central American gangs are planning to create a third force to compete with the Colombians and the Mexicans for the multibillion-dollar prize that is drug trafficking. Still more deaths are expected.

 

So far, any attempt by the government of El Salvador and those of neighbouring countries to curb this threat has failed. Three years ago, the former Salvadorean president Francisco Flores launched what he called the Plan Mano Dura (Strong Hand Plan) in an effort to reduce criminal activities by tightening up penalties and sanctions against the mareros. Some reactions were brutal. On Christmas Eve 2004, thugs from the Mara Salvatrucha attacked a public bus on the outskirts of San Pedro Sula, Honduras, shooting and hacking to death 28 commuters. Among them were four children. The killers left a blood-soaked note, insulting the government for its anti-mara laws.

 

"We are not animals, we're just human beings," says Flor de Maria, a 23-year-old with two children. She was 12 when she joined the Mara-18, both parents having died in the Salvadorean civil war. Today she carries the gang number on her forehead and neck. "I want to remove these tattoos, but I can't," she says. "The other gang members will kill me. It's dangerous for me to go outside. I was already shot by the Salvatruchos. I don't want my kids to become like that. I just want a job and a normal life."

 

But no one in this poor, crime-ridden country would hire anyone wearing gang marks. Those who join will be members for life, knowing they have nothing to lose. They will rob, smuggle or kill to survive. Once they choose this path to death, there is no turning back.

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Gentlemen, as a now deceased pal used to say, "It just doesn't matter! Why would it"

 

As the population rises, this sort violence will accelerate in proportion.

 

Only thing you can do, whether going in harms way or not, is to be aware and kill or maim every bad person who intends harm, or stay away until they are at your door.

 

Defend yourselves however proper.

 

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I might add that the killers will reappear, so why not bait them and remove them from the gene pool and so on?

 

Seems the perfect opportunity for some of the jerks who worked for Blackwater who like to shoot people and act tough and are ouot of a job and if they are not under indictment.

 

Give them a yacht, guns and let them go for it. Seems easy enough to me...

 

Clean can, if he wishes, move my contributions to a separate thread, if it will do any good.

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