Grinder

Chicago Area III

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28 minutes ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

Me. It's obvious.

$1000 bet? I'll setup an escrow account to keep you honest when it inevitably gets cancelled. 

I am not a betting man, but it is clear that CYC would still like to run the race if government regulations allow it. They amended the NOR over the weekend which gives registrants more time to complete race requirements (i.e. submitting your ORR certificate).  They wouldn't make that change if they weren't trying to delay the decision as long as possible in the hopes that regulations will open to allow them to run the race.

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56 minutes ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

Me. It's obvious.

$1000 bet? I'll setup an escrow account to keep you honest when it inevitably gets cancelled. 

We all have opinions about a race that could start 2 months from today.  I am withholding my opinion for now. I was just asking thinking I might have missed an "official announcement," which there are none up to this point.

Should a race occur, we have already decided that we would cross the finish line, u-turn and head back home. We wouldn't even step foot on the Island.

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

We all have opinions about a race that could start 2 months from today.  I am withholding my opinion for now. I was just asking thinking I might have missed an "official announcement," which there are none up to this point.

Should a race occur, we have already decided that we would cross the finish line, u-turn and head back home. We wouldn't even step foot on the Island.

Glenn, I was with a long standing committee member two days ago who doubts it for good reason.

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2 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Glenn, I was with a long standing committee member two days ago who doubts it for good reason.

We all have reservations about what the next 18 months of our future is at all levels, at all decisions, at all times of everything.

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3 hours ago, Donkey687 said:

I am not a betting man, but it is clear that CYC would still like to run the race if government regulations allow it. They amended the NOR over the weekend which gives registrants more time to complete race requirements (i.e. submitting your ORR certificate).  They wouldn't make that change if they weren't trying to delay the decision as long as possible in the hopes that regulations will open to allow them to run the race.

CYC has been behind the curve on this whole thing. But they're just completely out of touch, not dumb, so I think they'll figure it out eventually and bail.

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3 minutes ago, fucket said:

CYC has been behind the curve on this whole thing. But they're just completely out of touch, not dumb, so I think they'll figure it out eventually and bail.

I guarantee they've considered issues your pea brain haven't considered.

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This is good news for me, even if i'm not planning on doing the BYCmack, it lets us know for the CYC MAC what the island thinks.

 

2020 Bayview Mackinac Race
Race Chair Communication #5
 

May 18, 2020
Bayview Mackinac Race - Update          
 
Current items to update everyone on. 
1.     Port Huron Harbor Master has reported:
a.      Marinas in Port Huron will open on 15 May
b.     The City of Port Huron will not have any additional restrictions other than those required by Governor Whitmer.
 
2.     I have spoken with the Mackinac Island Mayor, Margret Doud, and she is supportive of the Race. She is facilitating communication between the appropriate parties and just as we are, she encourages flexibility and patience.
 
3.     Mackinac Island has reported that they will begin opening on 1 June 2020 with a hard open on 19 June 2020
 
4.     The Mackinac Island Harbor Master has reported that the water is very high and they may not be turning on the power to the docks. This issue is being evaluated. Currently, they are planning to limit docking to one boat per well when they open. We will continue to stay in touch with the proper authorities and keep everyone up to date. 
 
5.     Race Weather Briefing:
a.     The weather briefing will be virtual this year
b.     The briefing will be recorded on Friday and made available to all competitors via a link on the Race web site, bycmack.com.
c.      The briefing will be updated Saturday morning, with the latest info via a link on the Race web site, bycmack.com
d.     Early in the race week, a test will be set up just so racers can use the site once before the Race. Never hurts to practice these things.....
 
6.     We will NOT be printing any race documents/notifications this year unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Always consult the bycmack.com web site for official race documents and notifications.
 
7.     Great Lakes NOAA Weather Buoys - Per USCG LNM:13/20, NOAA Weather buoys throughout the Great Lakes will not be set on station as advertised in the Volume VII Great Lakes Light List.  The National Data Buoy Center has postponed servicing of these buoys until further notice.
 
8.     The Coast Guard Permit was granted for the Chicago Race to Mackinac on 14 June 2020.  We expect our permit any day.
 
General Questions we have received:
Question
Comment
Will there be a party in Port Huron?
Not one sponsored by BYC
Will there be a party on Mackinac Island?
Yes, we believe so but will be scaled back
Will my boat have a safety inspection on Mackinac Island?
Yes, there will still be random inspections. 
Will Endless Summer band be on Mackinac Island?
Not this year.
Will awards be handed out on Mackinac Island 
Yes, we believe so
Will there be social distancing requirements on Mackinac Island? 
This will be up to Mackinac Island and government directives/requirements.
Will there be changes before the start of the race?
Absolutely!
Could the race still be canceled? 
Yes it could, based on the conditions stated in the NOR.
Does Mackinac Island even want us on the island and can they accommodate us? 
The answer to both of these is a resounding yes!  The Mackinac Island economy has been severely impacted. They want and need us to support them. 
What right-of-way rules apply to a virtual mark? 
It's a mark regardless of its physical presence.  Please review the RRS.
How does using Yellow Brick to score the race impact the finish times and possible scoring?
It does not in any meaningful way impact the results. We have done research and the data shows that the change between scoring the boats by the bow or stern (YB Transponder Location) would not have impacted scoring in the past several years. We are working with US Sailing, World Sailing and Yellow Brick to come to a common understanding and agreement. 
 
What does all this mean? 
 
The Bayview Mackinac Race is still a go!  Get your entries in, Rating Certs processed and your boats ready!
 
Chris Clark
Chairman - 2020 Bayview Mackinac Race

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10 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I guarantee they've considered issues your pea brain haven't considered.

That's the thing, there just aren't that many issues to be considered. Forming a lobbying group to push local government to allow yacht racing while Cook County is racing towards being the next epicenter of this virus in the US is completely tone deaf.

Even assuming everything outside their control works out in the best imaginable way, the Mac would be a small, sad shell of itself. Risking any tiny bit of goodwill the yachting community has with the greater public to have 70 boats do a turn and burn with GPS scoring seems like a pretty easy way to hasten the downfall of our sport.

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3 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

We all have opinions about a race that could start 2 months from today.  I am withholding my opinion for now. I was just asking thinking I might have missed an "official announcement," which there are none up to this point.

Should a race occur, we have already decided that we would cross the finish line, u-turn and head back home. We wouldn't even step foot on the Island.

Sounds like a blast, Race then a delivery without stepping of the boat! :lol:

 

It may be 2 months from today, but this thing called planning doesn't allow you to wait that long. I predict a June 1 announcement of cancellation.

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Imagine doing the cyc max on a T10 this year. Northeaster beat to Grays, then wind dies in the straits as you drift your way to the virtual finish line off the Grand Hotel. You finish and then turn and burn back to Chicago. Just in time a fresh prevailing southwesterly to come in so you can beat all the way back to Chicago. Your 6 former crew members will be dehydrated, hungry and pretty cranky. After 7 days on a T-10 they will have a permanent hunch back and will only talk to you after several weeks of intensive chiropractic therapy. You will have to be very careful in the future as several of your crew will have unresolved anger management issues for years to come. Sounds like fun!

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2 hours ago, SailChiTown said:

This is good news for me, even if i'm not planning on doing the BYCmack, it lets us know for the CYC MAC what the island thinks.

2020 Bayview Mackinac Race
Race Chair Communication #5...

 

I don't know that I'd draw any straight  lines between BYC's actions and CYC. There is, shall we say, a different "demographic" at work over there... they're typically much less comfortable with their Governor's  "stay-at-home" situation, less dedicated to "social distancing", etc. and so have a higher proclivity for "opening up", easing restrictions (read the "West Michigan" thread...). Eliminating the pre-race party in the river (but not the on-Island  party and prize-givings?) won't really help much with achieving social distancing, and you still have boats rafted up at PH, harbor filled at Mac, people in close contact on a boat for 48-60hrs. I think if BYC holds their Mac, then someone who otherwise would not have, will contract COVID19. I think Chicago owners/sailors are probably a little more accepting of the fact that social distancing still needs to be in play through much (all?) of the summer. The CYC Mac committee (as someone else pointed out, always pre-ocuppied with sailor safety first and foremost) probably gets this too. Their recent postponement of the late entry and requirements deadline (June 1) simply is an acknowledgment that the harbors won't even by open by then (probably). So owners will have no clue at that point as to how prepared they might, if they have crew, etc. How may boats are ready to go in the water now? How many owners/crew have been down at the yard doing all their spring work (and limited to 2 people/boat anyway)? 

Boat yards are not launching Chicago harbor boats until they know when the Chicago harbors will open. Even if harbors open June 1st (and there would be plenty of social-distancing restrictions you can be sure, both in effect at the harbors/lakefront and also YCs), most boats won't get splashed until late in the month, based on work to be done, or simply the bottleneck (most yards launch from mid-April to early June - a 7 week window). Will there be any races run between then and Mac to give crew/owners some practice, clear out the cobwebs, check out equipment/sails/rig ? Does CYC want to start a Mac race with a (arguably much smaller than typical) fleet of boats that haven't had any serious time on the water yet? And then bad weather hits?

Probably the only reason the CYC Mac committee hasn't scrubbed the race yet is they want to give the impression they are doing all they can, waiting as long as possible to not cancel, so owners feel they are preserving the possibility of a race and working on "solutions".  Just remember CYC is not immune from repercussions or publicity that could arise by antagonizing local government officials/entities. 

  

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1 hour ago, Callahan said:

Imagine doing the cyc max on a T10 this year. Northeaster beat to Grays, then wind dies in the straits as you drift your way to the virtual finish line off the Grand Hotel. You finish and then turn and burn back to Chicago. Just in time a fresh prevailing southwesterly to come in so you can beat all the way back to Chicago. Your 6 former crew members will be dehydrated, hungry and pretty cranky. After 7 days on a T-10 they will have a permanent hunch back and will only talk to you after several weeks of intensive chiropractic therapy. You will have to be very careful in the future as several of your crew will have unresolved anger management issues for years to come. Sounds like fun!

I think other than Glenn, you'll find very little enthusiasm for "turn-and-burn" Mac race among the normal fleet. Hell, look at the entry list for Super Macs - like 40-50 boats tops.

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25 minutes ago, JoeO said:

I think other than Glenn, you'll find very little enthusiasm for "turn-and-burn" Mac race among the normal fleet. Hell, look at the entry list for Super Macs - like 40-50 boats tops.

What kind of boat does Glenn have? He seems like a T10 guy that was described above by Callahan! Blind passion for a tradition in yachting excellence!  :lol:

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2 hours ago, Callahan said:

Imagine doing the cyc max on a T10 this year. Northeaster beat to Grays, then wind dies in the straits as you drift your way to the virtual finish line off the Grand Hotel. You finish and then turn and burn back to Chicago. Just in time a fresh prevailing southwesterly to come in so you can beat all the way back to Chicago. Your 6 former crew members will be dehydrated, hungry and pretty cranky. After 7 days on a T-10 they will have a permanent hunch back and will only talk to you after several weeks of intensive chiropractic alcoholic therapy. You will have to be very careful in the future as several of your crew will have unresolved anger management issues for years to come. Sounds like fun!

Fixed it for ya ;)

 

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23 minutes ago, JoeO said:

I think other than Glenn, you'll find very little enthusiasm for "turn-and-burn" Mac race among the normal fleet. Hell, look at the entry list for Super Macs - like 40-50 boats tops.

This comes down to two things.  1) Will the government allow it? That is beyond CYC and sailors control, but I think there is a good chance that by July 1 in Illinois at least groups of 10 people will be allowed to congregate and sail together.  In Michigan, this is likely by June 1.   2) Is it a good idea for you? That is a personal decision to make not the yacht club or fellow poster on SA. If you are 75 years old or live at home with a 75 year old with a lung condition then there is greater risk than my situation sailing with family members and close friends under age 50. Some boats may choose not to race and some boats may choose to race. If there is a race, I will race and will have no problem docking on the Island, Mackinaw City or St. Ignace. Turning and burning will not be required. 

Let's keep in mind that there is risk in offshore sailing that we all take every year.  3 sailors have died in the last 10 years in the Mackinac race. On a death per capita basis, that risk is significantly higher than the COVID risk from doing the race especially if you aren't in a high risk category (age and medical condition).

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11 minutes ago, Donkey687 said:

This comes down to two things.  1) Will the government allow it? That is beyond CYC and sailors control, but I think there is a good chance that by July 1 in Illinois at least groups of 10 people will be allowed to congregate and sail together.  In Michigan, this is likely by June 1.   2) Is it a good idea for you? That is a personal decision to make not the yacht club or fellow poster on SA. If you are 75 years old or live at home with a 75 year old with a lung condition then there is greater risk than my situation sailing with family members and close friends under age 50. Some boats may choose not to race and some boats may choose to race. If there is a race, I will race and will have no problem docking on the Island, Mackinaw City or St. Ignace. Turning and burning will not be required. 

Let's keep in mind that there is risk in offshore sailing that we all take every year.  3 sailors have died in the last 10 years in the Mackinac race. On a death per capita basis, that risk is significantly higher than the COVID risk from doing the race especially if you aren't in a high risk category (age and medical condition).

But it's not simply a "if you're old or in high risk group, don't race" thing.. those invincible 20 and 30-somethings could also be exposed to the virus from someone else on the crew, island, YC, docks...and bring it home to mom and dad or grandpa or grandma, or a co-worker, neighbor, who might be high risk.  That's the point people are trying to make with masks and social distancing - just because you think it can't affect you, doesn't mean YOU can't affect others.  So for the YC to go ahead and sanction/promote an activity where this can occur, which accelerates the likelihood, in light of the city/state still keeping bars, restaurants closed and requiring masks/social distancing to be adhered to, would not be looked at favorably from  PR standpoint and could perhaps open them up to some  liability issues (this is America, after all). 

As for risk in sailing  - sure. But it's one thing to take the risk that you might perish during a storm, while facing the forces of nature, and trying to save ship and crew, etc. as part of distance racing. It's another to wither away alone in a hospital bed hooked up to a ventilator as the innocent victim of a (somewhat) preventable disease.  There's "dying doing what he loved" vs "dying because people were careless".

 

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Glenn has an Ericson 35 these days I think. He has had a T10. I’ve sailed a couple of Macs with him and he is definitely hard core. My post was in jest and described a worst case scenario. No Macs for me this year. Physically capable but in every risk group possible. Another thought, how much fuel, food, water, and refreshments would you need? Pretty tight packing it in on a T10

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1 hour ago, Callahan said:

Glenn has an Ericson 35 these days I think. He has had a T10. I’ve sailed a couple of Macs with him and he is definitely hard core. My post was in jest and described a worst case scenario. No Macs for me this year. Physically capable but in every risk group possible. Another thought, how much fuel, food, water, and refreshments would you need? Pretty tight packing it in on a T10

Correct, Ericson 35, slowest rated boat in the race!

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3 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Correct, Ericson 35, slowest rated boat in the race!

DeClercq's boat is slower, as are a number of Cruising fleet boats.

I did my first few Macs on a boat much slower than an Ericson 35-2. The 35-2 was a speedster back then.

 

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10 hours ago, JoeO said:

DeClercq's boat is slower, as are a number of Cruising fleet boats.

I did my first few Macs on a boat much slower than an Ericson 35-2. The 35-2 was a speedster back then.

 

Longest race in your exactly 25 Chi-Macs was on what type of boat and took how long?

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34 minutes ago, 40048 said:

Longest race in your exactly 25 Chi-Macs was on what type of boat and took how long?

Either some race in the later 70's on the Islander 37 that took 78-80 hrs, or 1989 on the One-Ton that took 80+ hrs.  I wipe the exact details of those kind of races form my memory.

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42 minutes ago, JoeO said:

Either some race in the later 70's on the Islander 37 that took 78-80 hrs, or 1989 on the One-Ton that took 80+ hrs.  I wipe the exact details of those kind of races form my memory.

I've finished on Tuesday and won!  Kids these days.

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23 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Should a race occur, we have already decided that we would cross the finish line, u-turn and head back home. We wouldn't even step foot on the Island.

With the rising lake levels, that foot might step onto a submerged pier.

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4 hours ago, 40048 said:

New Chi-Mac update  https://cycracetomackinac.com/news/article/racer-update-may-19-2020

There's been no decision on go/no-go yet (other than the decision to push back the final decision from late May to June 15)  but if it is a go, sounds like no social activities (parties, prize-giving, etc) and no rafting.

   

Well, if you read between the lines, they are being much more conservative than BYC, even though the CYC race is a week later...

As you point out - no parties, period. Compared to BYC :

"Will there be a party on Mackinac Island?            Working on it, but will absolutely be scaled back."

"Will awards be handed out on Mackinac Island?                 Yes, we believe so"

BYC clearly planning on some social activities on the island.

Further, CYC recognizes some realities that could lead to cancellation:

“The availability of equipment: the ability to have boats safely provisioned in time for the race in such a manner that we can inspect and check their compliance with CMSRs.”

Like I pointed out above, late (mid to late-June) launch dates compromise being able to be ready for the race. CYC seems to recognize this.

“The proper clearance from governmental bodies: which include the States of Illinois and Michigan, the Cities of Chicago and Mackinac Island, and the USCG.”

Clearly CYC is not willing to defy Pritzker, Lightfoot, USCG, or Mac Isl government officials if they do not believe the race should be held.

Interestingly, CYC notes (mandates) no rafting at CYC/Monroe/DuSable or on Mack Isl. The former clearly recognizes State of Illinois and City of Chicago continuing to apply social distancing mandates in the July timeframe. You have to imagine the latter comes from Mac Isl officials (or perhaps state of Michigan) – but BYC doesn’t address that at all. I have a hard time believing that Margaret Doud or Gov Whitmer said “No rafting of the CYC boats but it’s OK for the BYC boats”. BYC hiding something from their registrants? Or is CYC voluntarily denying rafting for CYC race boats?

 
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So if we can't party on the island, can we at least make it a Reverse Super Mac?

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9 hours ago, JoeO said:

Interestingly, CYC notes (mandates) no rafting at CYC/Monroe/DuSable or on Mack Isl. The former clearly recognizes State of Illinois and City of Chicago continuing to apply social distancing mandates in the July timeframe. You have to imagine the latter comes from Mac Isl officials (or perhaps state of Michigan) – but BYC doesn’t address that at all. I have a hard time believing that Margaret Doud or Gov Whitmer said “No rafting of the CYC boats but it’s OK for the BYC boats”. BYC hiding something from their registrants? Or is CYC voluntarily denying rafting for CYC race boats?

 

BYC states, “…The Mackinac Island Harbor Master has reported that the water is very high, and they may not be turning on the power to the docks. This issue is being evaluated. Currently, they are planning to limit docking to one boat per well when they open. We will continue to stay in touch with the proper authorities and keep everyone up to date.”

 Can that be interpreted as “no rafting”?

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25 minutes ago, Morgan Crewed said:

BYC states, “…The Mackinac Island Harbor Master has reported that the water is very high, and they may not be turning on the power to the docks. This issue is being evaluated. Currently, they are planning to limit docking to one boat per well when they open. We will continue to stay in touch with the proper authorities and keep everyone up to date.”

 Can that be interpreted as “no rafting”?

doesn't account for the coal docks.

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28 minutes ago, Morgan Crewed said:

BYC states, “…The Mackinac Island Harbor Master has reported that the water is very high, and they may not be turning on the power to the docks. This issue is being evaluated. Currently, they are planning to limit docking to one boat per well when they open. We will continue to stay in touch with the proper authorities and keep everyone up to date.”

 Can that be interpreted as “no rafting”?

Yeah, hadn't seen that... but there's some wiggle room there... "when they open"... hoping that things change shortly thereafter, or exception for the BYC race?

And as Looper points out, coal docks (which have traditionally been raft-city) are not part of the MI Harbor Master's domain... they're either owned by the  Ferry services or the City of Mac... presumably Doud can issue an order for no rafting there too?

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I would not be offended if they told us (or some of us) we needed to dock at the fancy new Straits State Harbor in Mackinac city - plenty of room to dock everybody. 

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Just another data point of how crews feel, the team I'm racing with for the BYC Mac is willing to leave our home slip for the start of the race, finish, turn around and head back to our home slip.  If that's what it takes to do the race, we'll do it.  We did withdraw entry from the CYC Mac this year, mostly out of time and financial constraints.  

 

I should point out to you Chicago folks that like all Detroit area boats our home slip is 8-10 hours from the starting line, not right out on the lake next to the club.  I guess the silver lining would be on the return trip down the river we'd have the current at our backs.  :lol:

 

I'm even willing to bet that if the Macs get cancelled there would be an intrepid crew or two from somewhere, willing to sail the course.  I can't say that I'm that hard core, but there's people who are.

 

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Perhaps one scenario that's not been considered for the "turn and burn" folks will be the incubation period for the virus and getting proper care.  As a 3 day race, odds are that someone will remain asymptomatic throughout the duration of the race until you hit shore.  Now you double the time to 6 days for the return on the boat and you are increasing your chances that an infected individual(s) could have some really bad symptoms at sea before arriving back home - possibly even requiring a stop for a sick crewmember(s) at an out of town port for care/hospitalization.

Even with the best masks, proper distancing and other protections it's still not good enough - we all still shit in the same bucket, share bunks, etc.  This year i'm ok not joining the floating petri dish race.

Change my mind.

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30 minutes ago, Looper said:

Perhaps one scenario that's not been considered for the "turn and burn" folks will be the incubation period for the virus and getting proper care.  As a 3 day race, odds are that someone will remain asymptomatic throughout the duration of the race until you hit shore.  Now you double the time to 6 days for the return on the boat and you are increasing your chances that an infected individual(s) could have some really bad symptoms at sea before arriving back home - possibly even requiring a stop for a sick crewmember(s) at an out of town port for care/hospitalization.

Even with the best masks, proper distancing and other protections it's still not good enough - we all still shit in the same bucket, share bunks, etc.  This year i'm ok not joining the floating petri dish race.

Change my mind.

14 day quarantine for the crew before the start?  Probably a bit excessive, I wouldn't do it.

One thing my friends and I have talked about (in the BYC Mac) is what if a boat on the Cove Island course needs to retire and head to Canada while the border is still closed?  What happens then, 40 day quarantine on a J111 with 8 people?  I'd rather beat both ways up and down Lake Michigan as suggested further up the thread!

Can you do me a favor, can you PM me Keiner's phone number if you got it?  I saw something on the internets that took me back to the college days, I gotta send it to him.

 

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4 hours ago, Looper said:

Perhaps one scenario that's not been considered for the "turn and burn" folks will be the incubation period for the virus and getting proper care.  As a 3 day race, odds are that someone will remain asymptomatic throughout the duration of the race until you hit shore.  Now you double the time to 6 days for the return on the boat and you are increasing your chances that an infected individual(s) could have some really bad symptoms at sea before arriving back home - possibly even requiring a stop for a sick crewmember(s) at an out of town port for care/hospitalization.

Even with the best masks, proper distancing and other protections it's still not good enough - we all still shit in the same bucket, share bunks, etc.  This year i'm ok not joining the floating petri dish race.

Change my mind.

My wife is an ICU nurse. Once a patient shows symptoms, it is the 6th day of symptoms where they go into a tail spin and need help.

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6 hours ago, Looper said:

Perhaps one scenario that's not been considered for the "turn and burn" folks will be the incubation period for the virus and getting proper care.  As a 3 day race, odds are that someone will remain asymptomatic throughout the duration of the race until you hit shore.  Now you double the time to 6 days for the return on the boat and you are increasing your chances that an infected individual(s) could have some really bad symptoms at sea before arriving back home - possibly even requiring a stop for a sick crewmember(s) at an out of town port for care/hospitalization.

Even with the best masks, proper distancing and other protections it's still not good enough - we all still shit in the same bucket, share bunks, etc.  This year i'm ok not joining the floating petri dish race.

Change my mind.

Why change your mind, don’t come, I hope many don’t come, more dock space for us. 

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6 hours ago, glexpress said:

14 day quarantine for the crew before the start?  Probably a bit excessive, I wouldn't do it.

 

I'm strongly considering this for our crew. 

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1 hour ago, SailChiTown said:

Why change your mind, don’t come, I hope many don’t come, more dock space for us. 

Like we say in Rand McNally: the fewer the boats, the better the race.

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12 hours ago, Keysrock35 said:

I'm strongly considering this for our crew. 

I can't realistically achieve a 14 day quarantine just to do a race.  I work in a hospital laboratory, I'd basically need to take two weeks off of work before the race.  Not happening.

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Posted (edited)

If they do have the race. I can see participation way down this year as people bail thinking it’s not worth the risk. Boats will have crew that will bail, owners will bail stranding crew who want to do the race. I bet only 100 boats cross the start line this year, if the race occurs.

Edited by Lightfoot
Grammar

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14 hours ago, Keysrock35 said:

I'm strongly considering this for our crew. 

Totally uninforceable. What people don't realize about this Covid is it's all about the details. How many people get a pizza delivered or pick up food and don't remove it from the packaging and plate it? Hands touch all of that stuff then you are eating your pizza or Thai out of the same packaging as you hand it.

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2 minutes ago, Lightfoot said:

If they do have the race. I can see participation way down this year as people bail thinking it’s not worth the risk. Boats will have crew that will bail, owners will bail stranding crew who want to do the race. I bet only 100 boats cross the start line this year, if the race occurs.

100???!!!! 25% of that is there is a race! But again, it will be cancelled.

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22 minutes ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

Totally uninforceable. What people don't realize about this Covid is it's all about the details. How many people get a pizza delivered or pick up food and don't remove it from the packaging and plate it? Hands touch all of that stuff then you are eating your pizza or Thai out of the same packaging as you hand it.

The city's health commissioner actually just commented on this during her daily update.  She was emphasizing that you can't get it from food as it's a respiratory virus, not gastric.  She said that even if someone infected coughed on your food and you ate it, the virus wouldn't survive in your stomach.  The concern is getting it in your lungs.

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On 5/19/2020 at 10:13 AM, JoeO said:

I wipe the exact details of those kind of races form my memory.

Damn right.

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34 minutes ago, Lightfoot said:

If they do have the race. I can see participation way down this year as people bail thinking it’s not worth the risk. Boats will have crew that will bail, owners will bail stranding crew who want to do the race. I bet only 100 boats cross the start line this year, if the race occurs.

I highly doubt even 100.

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6 minutes ago, CutterCaptain said:

The city's health commissioner actually just commented on this during her daily update.  She was emphasizing that you can't get it from food as it's a respiratory virus, not gastric.  She said that even if someone infected coughed on your food and you ate it, the virus wouldn't survive in your stomach.  The concern is getting it in your lungs.

But as SOTM said it's not from the food, but the packaging... touch the cartons, etc. then stuff your face, touch your face, whatever... surface to hand to mouth transfer.

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18 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

My wife is an ICU nurse. Once a patient shows symptoms, it is the 6th day of symptoms where they go into a tail spin and need help.

I'd imagine that "day 6" data point is the result of a number of observations... a mean value. As someone in the Ins industry I know you understand std dev, etc... so what is the sigma on that 6 days? I day? 2 days? 0.5 days? 

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Race usually has 250 to 300 boats. I’m sticking with 100 because all of the WI and Lake Michigan-Michigan boats will show up. And I’m sure the Devosses can have the rules bent to allow the big boats with more than 10 people on the crew pull to do the race.

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10 minutes ago, JoeO said:

But as SOTM said it's not from the food, but the packaging... touch the cartons, etc. then stuff your face, touch your face, whatever... surface to hand to mouth transfer.

I thought that got debunked. They didn’t they stop recommending wiping down all groceries and treating external containers as contaminated?

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28 minutes ago, CutterCaptain said:

The city's health commissioner actually just commented on this during her daily update.  She was emphasizing that you can't get it from food as it's a respiratory virus, not gastric.  She said that even if someone infected coughed on your food and you ate it, the virus wouldn't survive in your stomach.  The concern is getting it in your lungs.

It's not about the food. Its about the packaging. Touching surfaces.

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9 minutes ago, Lightfoot said:

I thought that got debunked. They didn’t they stop recommending wiping down all groceries and treating external containers as contaminated?

Debunked? What to debunk? If you touch a door knob, box of pasta, or pizza box that someone with Covid has touched there is a risk. 

Yesterday at the Gov's press conference there was a perfect example. Guy talking before the Gov'n was coughing into his hand. He then touched all over the podium. The Gov went up there, touched the podium, then touched his face and pulled his mask down to speak. Was interesting to observe... 

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11 minutes ago, Lightfoot said:

I thought that got debunked. They didn’t they stop recommending wiping down all groceries and treating external containers as contaminated?

CDC still says to clean surfaces... not sure why food packaging is much different than countertops, light switches... also they say to wash hands after receiving take-out orders. So there must be some concerns of transmission even if not paramount. There's definitely agreement that hand washing after receiving groceries or carry out is warranted.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cleaning-disinfection.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/essential-goods-services.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/health/groceries-takeout-coronavirus-wellness-scn-trnd/index.html

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Lightfoot said:

Race usually has 250 to 300 boats. I’m sticking with 100 because all of the WI and Lake Michigan-Michigan boats will show up. And I’m sure the Devosses can have the rules bent to allow the big boats with more than 10 people on the crew pull to do the race.

Where are those WI & MI boats going to go if they can't raft up at CYC?  Cans in Monroe?  I suppose transient slips would be available at near-empty 31st harbor. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition though.

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So I’m quite curious as to what legal authority cities on the Great Lakes (IL specific) have over “their” waterfront. What are the jurisdictional limits that exist between cities, states and “federally navigable waterways”?  Obviously topical when Chicago’s mayor says things like “boating won’t be allowed in Chicago...”  For example, can someone with a slip in Hammond or Winthrop sail along our shoreline? Drop their hook just north of Montrose Beach, or the playpen (which I believe is a designated anchorage...but designated by who?) etc..Genuinely curious and appreciate the insights of those familiar with these matters.. 

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I don’t think anyone is stopping you from dropping anchor off Chicago. But like ~85% of the lake front is city park and that’s closed, including all the harbors because they are in the parks. So by the city denying access to the facilities you need to use to go boating, boating is prevented. But If you got access somehow (INdiana harbors) I’m sure you could be playing up and down the lakefront. However expected to get pulled over and ‘safety inspected’ by the CPD every 1/2 hour on the dot till you decide to go back to IN

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1 hour ago, CutterCaptain said:

So I’m quite curious as to what legal authority cities on the Great Lakes (IL specific) have over “their” waterfront. What are the jurisdictional limits that exist between cities, states and “federally navigable waterways”?  Obviously topical when Chicago’s mayor says things like “boating won’t be allowed in Chicago...”  For example, can someone with a slip in Hammond or Winthrop sail along our shoreline? Drop their hook just north of Montrose Beach, or the playpen (which I believe is a designated anchorage...but designated by who?) etc..Genuinely curious and appreciate the insights of those familiar with these matters.. 

Report back to us on Monday what you find out:

https://www.greatlakeslaw.org/files/law_and_governance_of_the_great_lakes.pdf

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1781&ChapterID=47

http://nsglc.olemiss.edu/Advisory/pdfs/lake-michigan-shoreline.pdf

Control over Lake Michigan within State (Illinois) boundaries rests with State of Illinois. Some control is delegated to local municipalities (e.g., City of Chicago), to an etxent of "X" miles (I saw one reference for 3 miles, but not sure if it is current).

"For example, can someone with a slip in Hammond or Winthrop sail along our shoreline?"

   Yes. As long as 3(?) mi offshore

"Drop their hook just north of Montrose Beach"       

As long as 3(?) mi offshore

"or the playpen"   

Playpen closed per City of Chicago order. CPD Marine unit will enforce.

 

The reality is the CPD MU is not going to go out and hassle somebody sailing along a few miles offshore. Just don't try and anchor in the playpen or off any other beaches. Or enter any harbor.

The last time anyone went out after somebody sailing merrily along a few miles offshore was probably 1972... in late October/early November... Wally Stenhouse (CYC member) took his S&S49 "Aura" (sistership to Bay Bea and Scaramouche) out for crew practice, before shipping the boat east for the next year's SORC, Middle Sea, and  Transatlantic races (part of the WORC - World Ocean Racing Championship, which they won in 1973, I think) - coasties (back when Chicago had coasties) went out and told them to go back in, too dangerous... but they said, sorry, we've got to pracitce.   So if you do get visited by the po-po for just sailing along, you'll be in good comany

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What will happen if someone comes into say Dusable or Belmont in a no joke harbor of refuge situation?

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2 hours ago, JoeO said:

(I saw one reference for 3 miles, but not sure if it is current).

I recently dug that up and put it in the Chicago Boaters Facebook group, so you prob got it indirectly from me.

http://chicago-il.elaws.us/code/coor_t10_ch10-40_arti_sec10-40-010

@sidmon If you stay with your boat, you're asked to leave during business hours when the storm breaks. If you leave the boat, you're ticketed and banned from the harbors. Maybe towed. 

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On 5/7/2020 at 1:55 AM, ChiGuy said:

You might want to try Skyway

 

Skyway took good care of us yesterday - at our new slip in Hammond for 2020. To heck with Lori's ambiguity. Who wants to start the Hammond Weeknight doublehanded series with me!?

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8 hours ago, CFS Klopas said:

I recently dug that up and put it in the Chicago Boaters Facebook group, so you prob got it indirectly from me.

http://chicago-il.elaws.us/code/coor_t10_ch10-40_arti_sec10-40-010

Actually did not know of that (private) FB group. I think I saw it in one off those links I provided, in some quoted court record from the 1800's (!)  actually. Hence wondering if it was still current - and apparently it is.

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@Keysrock35 There is an existing small beer can scene at Hammond. Think they averaged 3 boats last year. The organizer once tried to recruit me, but unfortunately I have forgotten the contact info. Recruiting crew is basically insurmountable for me.

There is a Hammond Marina Facebook group you can join, they would know.

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Speaking of, harbors just moved the opening date back from June 1st to “sometime in early June” 

 

also they may require masks at all times. Anyone want to do the Mac wearing a mask the race.

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Well, given that most 40+ boats require more than 8 adults to be raced effectively (and safely!), this pretty much puts it to rest for at least 100 of the 238 current entries.

It's gettig to be a bit laughable that at this stage the only entity that doesn't seem to acknowledge there will be no Chi-Mac race this year is the CYC Mac committee. Not sure what they gain at this point by waiting any further to make it official - it just provides additional uncertainty for those few die-hards that might be wanting to launch their boats and head over to Port Huron for the BYC race instead. Just admit it's not gonna happen and work on e.g., making sure a Verve Cup can.

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, JoeO said:

Well, given that most 40+ boats require more than 8 adults to be raced effectively (and safely!), this pretty much puts it to rest for at least 100 of the 238 current entries.

It's gettig to be a bit laughable that at this stage the only entity that doesn't seem to acknowledge there will be no Chi-Mac race this year is the CYC Mac committee. Not sure what they gain at this point by waiting any further to make it official - it just provides additional uncertainty for those few die-hards that might be wanting to launch their boats and head over to Port Huron for the BYC race instead. Just admit it's not gonna happen and work on e.g., making sure a Verve Cup can.

 

 

 

Beneteau 40s and J/120s certainly can sail with 8 and often do.  Pac 52s and SC 70s sail Transpac with 8. I think they can make it to Mackinac especially those with pro crews. There are only 17 boats registered greater than 45 feet. These restrictions don't impact that many boats.  I have two 16 year olds on my crew of 8 on a 36 footer. They may get scooped up by a TP52 now.

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There are so many variables, all I see is mud.

Lightfoot said that the lakefront will open in early June, WITH RESTRICTIONS. Of course, those restrictions haven't been announced.

But lets presume harbors open, you can go to the beach, 6' distance, face mask, blah, blah, blah.

What is needed then is a 95-degree day as a "test." If the citizens flood down to the lakefront, ignore all of the "restrictions," I do not believe that Lightfoot will take that lightly.

We are on un-foraged ground, none of us know, or can predict what will happen next.

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3 minutes ago, Donkey687 said:

 Pac 52s and SC 70s sail Transpac with 8.

Apples and oranges, of course. And nobody is saying larger boats can't sail with only 8 crew - but not efficiently, and maybe not safely. I've sailed 40 footers with 8 and 10...10 makes a difference, especially when the shit hits the the fan. Even with the the additional food/water, it was better. I've sailed 45' with 14. Upwind you need the rail meat. And maybe within your own section it's not a biggie - if all TP52s or SC70s are "handicapped" to 8 adults fine... but compared to a F40 with 8 adults... which one is sailing at a higher efficiency more of the time?  How many TP52 or SC70 owners are going to bother with the time/expense if they can only sail with half their crew?

BTW - every J120 entered has more than 8 crew registered - maybe they can sail with 8, but they don't seem to want to.

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15 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

There are so many variables, all I see is mud.

Lightfoot said that the lakefront will open in early June, WITH RESTRICTIONS. Of course, those restrictions haven't been announced.

But lets presume harbors open, you can go to the beach, 6' distance, face mask, blah, blah, blah.

What is needed then is a 95-degree day as a "test." If the citizens flood down to the lakefront, ignore all of the "restrictions," I do not believe that Lightfoot will take that lightly.

We are on un-foraged ground, none of us know, or can predict what will happen next.

What will annoy me is if harbors open early june, beach flooded with people, lake front closed again and harbors closed with it. Then our boats will be stuck.

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I feel like she’s going to wait to ensure that doesn’t happen.   I think once the floodgates open, she knows no going back.   

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9 hours ago, Grinder said:

I feel like she’s going to wait to ensure that doesn’t happen.   I think once the floodgates open, she knows no going back.   

Bet she will keep the lakefront clamped down until after July 4th.

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A little hard to spot but a couple of good sized powerboats were anchored in the playpen ~1645-1800...

Capture.PNG

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6 hours ago, sidmon said:

A little hard to spot but a couple of good sized powerboats were anchored in the playpen ~1645-1800...

Capture.PNG

And there was a decent sized powerboat, say ~35', anchored within 1/4 mile of Montrose beach for several hours Sunday afternoon.

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Just delivered a 30 foot bought by one of my crew from Lake St.Clair to Fairport Harbor Ohio this weekend. Big marina on Lake St. Clair had about 80% of the boats in the water. No visitors to marina office allowed but yard was open and they were launching boats. Nice newish J111 sitting in well at launch site. Motored down to Bayview and noticed a lot of boats in the water when we docked at BYC including several sleds and TP52s. Guys working on the TP52. Clubhouse closed and looked like a bombed out building with the front half of the building torn off and chain link fence around the parking lot. Obviously they are doing major remodeling. Nice trip down the Detroit River with every Canadian with an 18 foot aluminum boat out fishing. No Americans. Canada is closed to Americans until June 21 st. Next stop Put in Bay. Welcome back to the land of the free (Ohio). City docks packed but no rafting. Anchorage 3/4ths full.  Downtown PIB about half the crowd of normal. Restaurants, bars all open. We had a nice dinner at Mossbachs.  Staff all had masks. Social distancing.  Tons of people on the streets in groups- no masks.  I felt pretty conspicuous with my mask.  70 miles next day to Fairport Harbor.  Didn't see another boat until we got off Mentor.  Mentor beach had a crowd and marina half full where we docked. Bottom line is that it is all very confusing. Michigan looks like it is trying to open. Ohio is further along. I even got a legal haircut there on Thursday.  Illinois appears to be way behind.  I'm guessing the CYC Mac gets cancelled but the BYC Mac goes forward.

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7 hours ago, sidmon said:

A little hard to spot but a couple of good sized powerboats were anchored in the playpen ~1645-1800...

Capture.PNG

The mayor is gonna spank those people.

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Just heard that CYC is considering starting the Chi Mac from Holland Michigan. Probably an unfounded rumor but certainly interesting. I understand you are currently not allowed north of the lakefront path/walkway on the Chicago lakefront.

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32 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

The mayor is gonna spank those people.

Boats just ran up from Hammond for the afternoon...

Saw them come in and leave.

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21 hours ago, Grinder said:

I feel like she’s going to wait to ensure that doesn’t happen.   I think once the floodgates open, she knows no going back.   

So Friday July 3rd? Wait as long as possible, but open up for the 4th...?

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9 minutes ago, JoeO said:

So Friday July 3rd? Wait as long as possible, but open up for the 4th...?

We should take bets on here... I could see her waiting until after the 4th holiday, so Monday, July 6th, but that is CRAZY.

From the WestRec/Harbor chatter it sounds like June 5 or 15th... My hope is the 5th and yards get permission this week or next to start launching and staging at harbors...

I'm bullish, saying June 5.

PS, this is much more interesting bet than talking about the Chi-Mac as we know it's not going to happen, sorry die-hards...

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6 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

We should take bets on here... I could see her waiting until after the 4th holiday, so Monday, July 6th, but that is CRAZY.

From the WestRec/Harbor chatter it sounds like June 5 or 15th... My hope is the 5th and yards get permission this week or next to start launching and staging at harbors...

I'm bullish, saying June 5.

PS, this is much more interesting bet than talking about the Chi-Mac as we know it's not going to happen, sorry die-hards...

July 8th...

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My vote June 1st.  It’s a Monday, the state allows reopening on May 29th in general but the 30th for “boating” but you know Lori isn’t going to risk the first day of a reopening on a weekend. 

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2 hours ago, CutterCaptain said:

My vote June 1st.  It’s a Monday, the state allows reopening on May 29th in general but the 30th for “boating” but you know Lori isn’t going to risk the first day of a reopening on a weekend. 

I wish it was June 1 too but seems to good to be true so punted to the end of that week. I will say, if they intend to do June 5 I hope they give the harbors the green light to begin launching on the 1st to get the ball rolling. Yards are going to spend $$$ on overtime to get boats launched so this is going to take 2-3 weeks to get everyone splashed. 

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I bet June 9th.

What does the winner get?

Also in the long term I think we’re screwed, all those red states that opened early are starting to trend upward with cases again.

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3 hours ago, Lightfoot said:

I bet June 9th.

What does the winner get?

Also in the long term I think we’re screwed, all those red states that opened early are starting to trend upward with cases again.

At her presser last Friday, Lightfoot said when asked about the lakefront that, "it will open later this summer"

(my emphasis).

No way will folks be allowed in the marinas and not at the golf courses soccer fields and tennis courts...

 

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Quote

Not included are guidelines for reopening sporting events, bars, religious services, outdoor performances, summer programs and youth activities, the lakefront and museums. Those standards “will be available later in phase three when those entities are predicted to begin reopening,” according to the release.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-coronavirus-chicago-lori-lightfoot-reopening-guidelines-20200526-d44coe2pxfbd5jfz2lwkqxjedu-story.html

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I guess we'll all see what we want to see until Westrec makes it official. 

https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/sites/covid-19/home/reopening-business-portal.html

Within Phase III, the following industries are opening first with specific safety guidelines:

  • Childcare centers and family childcare
  • Non-lakefront parks (no contact sports)
  • Libraries and other city services
  • Office-based jobs, professional services, and real estate services
  • Hotels / lodging
  • Outdoor attractions (e.g., boating – not including the Playpen, non-Lakefront golf courses)
  • Non-essential retail
  • Personal services (e.g., hair/nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors)
  • Restaurants and coffee shops (outdoor dining only)
  • Manufacturing, construction, and warehousing
  • Hospitals, dentists, community mental health centers, and Federally Qualified Health Centers
  • Public transit, regional transit, taxis and rideshare
  • Gyms (outdoor and 1:1 personal training only)

 

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20 minutes ago, CutterCaptain said:

non-Lakefront golf courses)

That's the showstopper for the marinas. Also includes all the sports fields.

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One question from a non-boat owner. Is the city refunding mooring fees for time missed in the harbors? I know it adds up especially if Lightfoot is telling everyone they can't use the lakefront.

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8 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

One question from a non-boat owner. Is the city refunding mooring fees for time missed in the harbors? I know it adds up especially if Lightfoot is telling everyone they can't use the lakefront.

Prorates to next year.

Also, going back to the 19th century Burnham Plan, the lakefront is explicitly for "all the people".

No way in hell will any scheme works that excludes some while allowing orhers.

Especially rich yachties.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

One question from a non-boat owner. Is the city refunding mooring fees for time missed in the harbors?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

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30 minutes ago, sidmon said:

Prorates to next year.

Also, going back to the 19th century Burnham Plan, the lakefront is explicitly for "all the people".

No way in hell will any scheme works that excludes some while allowing orhers.

Especially rich yachties.

 

 

The city needs the revenue from the yachties though. We pay thousands per season for the docks and the city gets a cut from WestRec. Does anyone want to take a guess at the revenue Chicago Harbors bring in and what percentage the city keeps?

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