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prozak

1d 48 - Information

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Anyone have information on this boat?

 

Any links to info?

 

ID 48.

 

ABRACADABRA

--> US NAVAL ACADEMY

--> GLORY (Seattle Washington)

--> BLUE (Texas. Hole on port side In Hurricane)

-->FLYER (was told in other thread bought for 25k from ebay)

 

Thanks.

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Still trying to work out which boat..... cheap 50 was never really in the plans.. that was just speculation.....

 

other options inclue ILC40, Farr40, 40.7 (though this is least favourite)

 

Used for inshore and offshore racing in uk.

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Still trying to work out which boat..... cheap 50 was never really in the plans.. that was just speculation.....

 

other options inclue ILC40, Farr40, 40.7 (though this is least favourite)

 

Used for inshore and offshore racing in uk.

Have you had a look at the ratings of the type of boats you are planning to race against? majority of racing offshore or inshore?

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Yeah... I've been looking through cowes, warsash, fastnet histories.

 

There is quite a mix.

 

The reason the 1d48 became an option is I notice Sjambok did fairly well.....even with a 1.276 (or so) rating

 

The Farr and ILC 40's don't perform quite as well....

 

I'm less concerned about a perfect IRC yacht... more about also having fun.... the reason the 40.7 is least favourite is because it is essentially a fat slow pig.

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I looked at Sjambok a few years back. I belive Right Coast has allot of info on her and 1D48s I would pm him.

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Yeah... I've been looking through cowes, warsash, fastnet histories.

 

There is quite a mix.

 

The reason the 1d48 became an option is I notice Sjambok did fairly well.....even with a 1.276 (or so) rating

 

The Farr and ILC 40's don't perform quite as well....

 

I'm less concerned about a perfect IRC yacht... more about also having fun.... the reason the 40.7 is least favourite is because it is essentially a fat slow pig.

Can't argue about 40.7

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I looked at Sjambok a few years back. I belive Right Coast has allot of info on her and 1D48s I would pm him.

 

 

Yeah I think she is still for sale.....

 

Thanks for the heads up. Will PM him.

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The boat was Irene when it was in Seattle and was completely overhauled and refittied in 2004. Not sure what you are looking for with regard to info but I am sure the condition is no where close to where it was in 2004-2006 (and prior the storm damage).

 

These boats were a handful to sail due to the runners and overall weight.... Think slightly more modern IOR 50 and barely more fum.

 

USA 48004 in happier times....

post-1056-041942200 1298465461_thumb.jpg

post-1056-040728000 1298465472_thumb.jpg

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These boats were a handful to sail due to the runners and overall weight.... Think slightly more modern IOR 50 and barely more fum.

Why does everyone think runners are a handful?

 

I sailed a 65 footer with runners. As long as you remember to put them on there is no issue. Am I missing something?

 

What about the weight? Too heavy or light? Or has it more to do with ballast and stability?

 

Thanks

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These boats were a handful to sail due to the runners and overall weight.... Think slightly more modern IOR 50 and barely more fum.

Why does everyone think runners are a handful?

 

I sailed a 65 footer with runners. As long as you remember to put them on there is no issue. Am I missing something?

 

What about the weight? Too heavy or light? Or has it more to do with ballast and stability?

 

Thanks

 

Oh Jesus, the runners and rig on the ID48 are not at all comparable to the 65, and I do not even know what 65 you are talking about. Frac rig with a runner, a check stay and a tuner if I recall. (It has been 15 years) All bound into one trim/adjustment. The speed of the boat is all about the runner. Think a 48 foot AC boat in regard to the runners. In fact, I was at a meeting when the Devos' and John Burhnam were promoting the class. It was to replace the 50s and be used by some AC teams as a trainer. Not just your ordinary runners.

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Fair enough.

 

The way I see it the runners and check stays perform two functions.

 

1. Secure the rig so she doesn't fall down.

2. Tune the hell out if the bugger.

 

 

At the level I sail I'm happy to dedicate a body to number 1.

 

If that body becomes good at number 2 then great...... but not the end of the world if he ain't perfect.

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ID48's have no permanent backstay. The runners ARE the rig. Screw up & you've got no rig at all. They are very highly loaded with 3:1 tackles on them, & the class rules had under sized winches originally (which all failed) so they went to a strange sort of one off winch with some very strange characteristics. When the class fell apart, a few boats installed up-sized winches back there to finally get it right. In a breeze there's a lot of work involved to switch runners - even more if you're jibing. About the LAST rig set up I'd consider to 'cruise'.

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Fair enough.

 

The way I see it the runners and check stays perform two functions.

 

1. Secure the rig so she doesn't fall down.

2. Tune the hell out if the bugger.

 

 

At the level I sail I'm happy to dedicate a body to number 1.

 

If that body becomes good at number 2 then great...... but not the end of the world if he ain't perfect.

Maybe not, but could end up being one expensive learning curve.

 

What type of 65 have you sailed, big charter type maybe?

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the 48 is a pain, I hate those runners, especially in better breeze.

Thankfully the boat moved on and I stayed.

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ID48's have no permanent backstay. About the LAST rig set up I'd consider to 'cruise'.

 

Yes I know this part.... :)

 

Who is cruising?

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Fair enough.

 

The way I see it the runners and check stays perform two functions.

 

1. Secure the rig so she doesn't fall down.

2. Tune the hell out if the bugger.

 

 

At the level I sail I'm happy to dedicate a body to number 1.

 

If that body becomes good at number 2 then great...... but not the end of the world if he ain't perfect.

Maybe not, but could end up being one expensive learning curve.

 

What type of 65 have you sailed, big charter type maybe?

 

Some custom thing. Was a while ago. She seemed pretty solid though.

 

Does it matter?

 

Running backstays don't seen that complex or too much hassle to me......

 

Will I lose a mast? Who knows.

 

Have any lost a mast due to incompetent use of backstay? They haven't had rockstars in board for ages. That has to be some proof that they are not some weak setup that falls over at the first mistake

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Why does everyone think runners are a handful?

Because they can be. I saw a boat that went crazy downwind and lost the rig. I was told later they stuffed the pole into the water, boom flew over & snapped the runner block out of the deck at the same time, rig collapsed at the lower spreader on the correction.

 

The owner (IIRC) put in a rig w/o runners thereafter.

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the 48 is a pain, I hate those runners, especially in better breeze.

Thankfully the boat moved on and I stayed.

 

Ok. I give in. :)

 

Who has a drawing of the exact setup?

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Prozak, have you talked to the folks at Cal Maritime to get their opinion on the boat? Good source of info from some really good folks. Beau

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ID48's have no permanent backstay. The runners ARE the rig. Screw up & you've got no rig at all. They are very highly loaded with 3:1 tackles on them, & the class rules had under sized winches originally (which all failed) so they went to a strange sort of one off winch with some very strange characteristics. When the class fell apart, a few boats installed up-sized winches back there to finally get it right. In a breeze there's a lot of work involved to switch runners - even more if you're jibing. About the LAST rig set up I'd consider to 'cruise'.

 

The runner winches were AeroMarine and on Blue they were a problem. I don't know if the Flyer owner upgraded them or not. The problem we thought was with the pawl springs. They were dead and we looked high and low for replacements, even tried having some springs custom made. Those did not work but about a month before Ike hit one of our crew managed to find a bunch of them. I don't think we ever got them installed or if they went with the boat to Cleveland. If the only problem was with the springs and they are with the boat you are probably OK but if there were other issues with them good luck. You also needed a special handle for them. Make damn sure you get those handles if you buy one with the AM winches. In any kind of breeze we usually had two guys assigned to the runners

 

 

 

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Why does everyone think runners are a handful?

Because they can be. I saw a boat that went crazy downwind and lost the rig. I was told later they stuffed the pole into the water, boom flew over & snapped the runner block out of the deck at the same time, rig collapsed at the lower spreader on the correction.

 

The owner (IIRC) put in a rig w/o runners thereafter.

 

Sounds like an opportunity to improve the setup!

LOL

 

I'll have a prod by the way. Poles are for dancing around.....;)

 

Prozak, have you talked to the folks at Cal Maritime to get their opinion on the boat? Good source of info from some really good folks. Beau

 

No. But great idea.

Thanks

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Fair enough.

 

The way I see it the runners and check stays perform two functions.

 

1. Secure the rig so she doesn't fall down.

2. Tune the hell out if the bugger.

 

 

At the level I sail I'm happy to dedicate a body to number 1.

 

If that body becomes good at number 2 then great...... but not the end of the world if he ain't perfect.

Maybe not, but could end up being one expensive learning curve.

 

What type of 65 have you sailed, big charter type maybe?

 

Some custom thing. Was a while ago. She seemed pretty solid though.Does it matter?

 

Running backstays don't seen that complex or too much hassle to me......

 

Will I lose a mast? Who knows.

 

Have any lost a mast due to incompetent use of backstay? They haven't had rockstars in board for ages. That has to be some proof that they are not some weak setup that falls over at the first mistake

There are a lot of masts out there which can be very forgiving, if it was a "solid boat and mast" it may be that the runners were used more to stop the mast pumping going into a seaway. Other more tender masts have a habit of falling over very easily if the runner man fucks it up. It's not just the mast when it goes wrong, sails, rigging damage to hull or people. Just saying.

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ID48's have no permanent backstay. The runners ARE the rig. Screw up & you've got no rig at all. They are very highly loaded with 3:1 tackles on them, & the class rules had under sized winches originally (which all failed) so they went to a strange sort of one off winch with some very strange characteristics. When the class fell apart, a few boats installed up-sized winches back there to finally get it right. In a breeze there's a lot of work involved to switch runners - even more if you're jibing. About the LAST rig set up I'd consider to 'cruise'.

 

The runner winches were AeroMarine and on Blue they were a problem. I don't know if the Flyer owner upgraded them or not. The problem we thought was with the pawl springs. They were dead and we looked high and low for replacements, even tried having some springs custom made. Those did not work but about a month before Ike hit one of our crew managed to find a bunch of them. I don't think we ever got them installed or if they went with the boat to Cleveland. If the only problem was with the springs and they are with the boat you are probably OK but if there were other issues with them good luck. You also needed a special handle for them. Make damn sure you get those handles if you buy one with the AM winches. In any kind of breeze we usually had two guys assigned to the runners

 

 

 

 

Thaks for that.

 

This is the info I have on the boat...

 

"New Harken 53’s for runners"

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Fair enough.

 

The way I see it the runners and check stays perform two functions.

 

1. Secure the rig so she doesn't fall down.

2. Tune the hell out if the bugger.

 

 

At the level I sail I'm happy to dedicate a body to number 1.

 

If that body becomes good at number 2 then great...... but not the end of the world if he ain't perfect.

Maybe not, but could end up being one expensive learning curve.

 

What type of 65 have you sailed, big charter type maybe?

 

Some custom thing. Was a while ago. She seemed pretty solid though.Does it matter?

 

Running backstays don't seen that complex or too much hassle to me......

 

Will I lose a mast? Who knows.

 

Have any lost a mast due to incompetent use of backstay? They haven't had rockstars in board for ages. That has to be some proof that they are not some weak setup that falls over at the first mistake

There are a lot of masts out there which can be very forgiving, if it was a "solid boat and mast" it may be that the runners were used more to stop the mast pumping going into a seaway. Other more tender masts have a habit of falling over very easily if the runner man fucks it up. It's not just the mast when it goes wrong, sails, rigging damage to hull or people. Just saying.

 

Yeah fair enough. I do understand the implications. I've lost a mast once and had chainplates rip out another time (mast saved).

 

The stays on the 65 were definitely for support as the skipper gave a nice bollocking for not getting it quite right in 35 True.

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Fair enough.

 

The way I see it the runners and check stays perform two functions.

 

1. Secure the rig so she doesn't fall down.

2. Tune the hell out if the bugger.

 

 

At the level I sail I'm happy to dedicate a body to number 1.

 

If that body becomes good at number 2 then great...... but not the end of the world if he ain't perfect.

Maybe not, but could end up being one expensive learning curve.

 

What type of 65 have you sailed, big charter type maybe?

 

Some custom thing. Was a while ago. She seemed pretty solid though.Does it matter?

 

Running backstays don't seen that complex or too much hassle to me......

 

Will I lose a mast? Who knows.

 

Have any lost a mast due to incompetent use of backstay? They haven't had rockstars in board for ages. That has to be some proof that they are not some weak setup that falls over at the first mistake

There are a lot of masts out there which can be very forgiving, if it was a "solid boat and mast" it may be that the runners were used more to stop the mast pumping going into a seaway. Other more tender masts have a habit of falling over very easily if the runner man fucks it up. It's not just the mast when it goes wrong, sails, rigging damage to hull or people. Just saying.

 

4 or 6 years ago in the Pinapple cup the runner crew on Blue missed on a gybe in 25knots, rig stayed up, though I was sure it was comming down at the time.

 

Your best main trimmer needs to be on the "runners" constantly going down and making adjustments to shape. When you start trending down its tough to get the speed back up without fast mast shaping.

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It sure looks like twin running backstays to me. I see no permanant backstay there, just the twin runners.

 

Good luck with the purchase.

 

 

yeah definitely.

 

But check stays appear not to be there... (i thought someone said they were) which would have made it a bit more complex....

 

IRC cert confirms... 3 spreaders, 1 jumper Set, 1 Runner Set.

 

 

Actually looking at this picture... maybe the check stays are there... but in the same blocks?

 

 

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4 or 6 years ago in the Pinapple cup the runner crew on Blue missed on a gybe in 25knots, rig stayed up, though I was sure it was comming down at the time.

 

Your best main trimmer needs to be on the "runners" constantly going down and making adjustments to shape. When you start trending down its tough to get the speed back up without fast mast shaping.

 

Yeah this is sort of my point... maybe badly made.

 

1.Remember to use runners to ensure mast doesn't tumble.

 

2. Perfect their use to get best performance.

 

 

Number 1 is crucial. Number 2 is only crucial to winning.

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The top mast runners are tied into the system above the purchase. The length needs to be adjusted with a strop depending on wind strength. Had a lot of fun on those boats in the heyday.

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It sure looks like twin running backstays to me. I see no permanant backstay there, just the twin runners.

 

Original sailplan had a big fathead main IIRC (from looking at pictures, rather than being onboard)

 

See @ 3.15 here.

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The top mast runners are tied into the system above the purchase. The length needs to be adjusted with a strop depending on wind strength. Had a lot of fun on those boats in the heyday.

 

 

ahhh... does that answer my question a few posts up about check stays?

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It sure looks like twin running backstays to me. I see no permanant backstay there, just the twin runners.

 

Good luck with the purchase.

 

 

yeah definitely.

 

But check stays appear not to be there... (i thought someone said they were) which would have made it a bit more complex....

 

IRC cert confirms... 3 spreaders, 1 jumper Set, 1 Runner Set.

 

 

Actually looking at this picture... maybe the check stays are there... but in the same blocks?

 

 

 

HOLD ON!

 

Do I count 4 spreaders?

 

Now I'm confused. Has broker sent me wrong pics?

 

Edit: I think I'm just being stupid.... Jumpers.....

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I believe the boats had a wheel? Is a conversion to tiller mentioned in the specs?

 

 

Yeah tiller conversion. Wheel and box available.

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Had a lot of fun on those boats in the heyday.

 

Feel free to elaborate.

 

Everyone else is pretty pessimistic about my chances of keeping the mast up! :lol: :lol:

 

They sound like my wife after I've had a few.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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The top mast runners are tied into the system above the purchase. The length needs to be adjusted with a strop depending on wind strength. Had a lot of fun on those boats in the heyday.

 

Some had a strop above the block but was slow and a pain to adjust. some were led down internaly to be adjusted at the mast. it is crucial to control headstay sag.

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Out of interest, as you seem keen to acquire a large (& therefore to some degree knackered) boat which will probably require spending lots of money on sails and new electrickery gadgetry and a crew list as long as a fashionista PR's phone book, why aren't you going for the obvious UK choice of a Farr 45? Berthon have one listed.

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prozak, it all sounds like you are going to have to up your dosage. Significantly.

 

SC52 looking completely sane by comparison.

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My experience campaigning 006 (which we felt was the fastest hull) with the ED, Longy, et al here in Dago was the boat was FAST in 8-12! In breeze you're dragging that HUGE main around the course (not fast) AND the boat don't surf (think IOR 50).

 

The rig is strong. Just make sure that you release the floating tack of the main at the top mark. Start doing chin-ups to handle that tiller in some breeze!

 

Ask about the water-ballast tanks/plumbing

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Good question.

 

cos what I save on purchase I can spend on sails.

 

1d 48 is also much faster on the water. fast = fun.

 

I sail against an 1D 48 all the time. Sailed on one a bit as well. It is exceptionally fast on windward/leewards in flat water. Great boat for inshore bouy racing, which is what they are designed for. They suck on reaches and running in heavy air. They don't get up and go, just get stuck in their wave train. The local boat, with a very good crew tore a jumper off the mast when they caught a runner on a nighttime jibe and blew the gooseneck off in a heavy air jibe, for instance.

 

The split backstay is a pain and a constant point of attention. It's not just a grind-it-on/let-it-off position on the boat. And because the boat's so wide, you need two bodies back there. If you dump the fathead main, you are going to throw the balance of the boat off and become just another boat.

 

Then there is the "cruising" part of it. ROFLMAO. You need a flashlight to find the one-burner gimbaled sterno-burner or the crap-in-a-box "head" in that carbon fiber dungeon.

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Back to the original question for info.

 

Blue...004 was originally Abracadabra. John Kolius won Big Boat, SORC and several other big events with her as well as coached the Americas cup team on her.

 

Not so sure 006 was the fastest hull.

 

I think most of the boats have been painted white inside.

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I know a bit about 1 D 48 backstays and with a couple of people who know what they are doing, and more importantly, pay attention they aren't a problem. There can be issues but this is where paying attention is important. The boats can be wicked fast in the breeze but they simply won't surf. They do get sticky in light winds 4-5 knots. I believe Sjambok has had some pretty major upgrades and now has either a penalty pole or a sprit.

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great boat for w/l racing. fast upwind and sails deep down. Personally, I like the MH runners for adjustablity. IRC does not seem to like 'em. But the boats are stout and a good PHRF killer.

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Thanks gents.

 

Mixed bag of opinions.

 

But I'm sure that is the same as any boat.

 

 

Judging on how you intend to treat the runners and what people have said about the vital role they play I doubt you'll have to worry about them for very long.

 

 

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Hmmm..... strong wind performance is not good news.

 

Pretty windy round here...

 

Prozak,

 

You gota talk to the CalMaritime folks about the epic knockdown in the 2009 Windjammers. A long time with the rig in the water. Big breeze takes big skill with this design.

 

BV

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Maybe the ilc 40 is the better option.....

 

Ho hum...

 

Just get a SC52 and be done with it. Almost as fast upwind, twice the speed downwind.

 

+1

 

Seriously man, give yourself a break here. There are far better options out there for the money (especially if we're considering campaign costs). For a boat like this the purchase price is a drop in the bucket compared with what you will spend getting her around the bouys. Running a 50 footer of this sort is a serious program.

 

I don't know what your sailing experience is, but boats like this have a pretty steep learning curve in the boathandling department. Tweaky can be fun, fast and very rewarding, but isn't always the best choice. If you haven't sailed on a boat like this, I'd recommend hitching a ride for a real race before taking the plunge.

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Maybe the ilc 40 is the better option.....

 

Ho hum...

 

Just get a SC52 and be done with it. Almost as fast upwind, twice the speed downwind.

 

Twice the speed downwind? I don't think so. I've raced both - a lot.

 

If you can find an ILC 46 cheap it might be a plan.

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Maybe the ilc 40 is the better option.....

 

Ho hum...

 

Just get a SC52 and be done with it. Almost as fast upwind, twice the speed downwind.

 

+1

 

Seriously man, give yourself a break here. There are far better options out there for the money (especially if we're considering campaign costs). For a boat like this the purchase price is a drop in the bucket compared with what you will spend getting her around the bouys. Running a 50 footer of this sort is a serious program.

 

I don't know what your sailing experience is, but boats like this have a pretty steep learning curve in the boathandling department. Tweaky can be fun, fast and very rewarding, but isn't always the best choice. If you haven't sailed on a boat like this, I'd recommend hitching a ride for a real race before taking the plunge.

 

Well the other options are in the 40 range... Farr, ILC....

 

So I'm not beating myself to death over this...

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Actively trimming the runners can make a huge difference between real fast and real frustrating. Upwind you cannot set them and forget them if you want to go fast, and depending on the cut of the main, be prepared to really put some real muscle into to get the main trimmed correctly when the breeze gets over 15.

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Generally, there's a reason big cheap boats are cheap. Not so much acquiring an asset as giving yourself exposure to a liability.

 

Yup. Exactly. Unless the dude has a budget of 100-150 boatunits a year it it a bad idea. The fact that boats like a beachball 40.7 was on the explore list tells me that he has absolotely NO business sailing an 1D48 - totally polar opposite types of boats

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Thanks gents.

 

Mixed bag of opinions.

 

But I'm sure that is the same as any boat.

 

 

Judging on how you intend to treat the runners and what people have said about the vital role they play I doubt you'll have to worry about them for very long.

 

How anyone can have overlooked this remark is beyond me.

 

+1000.

 

Prozak, please buy the 1D48, and keep us all updated on your yachting adventures in the Solent and the Channel.

 

This has the all the ingredients of an entertaining summer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For Us. :ph34r:

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It sure looks like twin running backstays to me. I see no permanant backstay there, just the twin runners.

 

Good luck with the purchase.

 

 

yeah definitely.

 

But check stays appear not to be there... (i thought someone said they were) which would have made it a bit more complex....

 

IRC cert confirms... 3 spreaders, 1 jumper Set, 1 Runner Set.

 

 

Actually looking at this picture... maybe the check stays are there... but in the same blocks?

 

 

 

 

Prozac,

I take it you are quite keen on the yacht - fellars - he must be a tradgic case like the rest of us.

 

Ok, if you purchase this yacht, everyone here is correct and you cant underestimate how important the runners are. I have a yacht with the exact same rig and runner set-up, (your picture shows check-stays as well), 3 spedder and diamond.

 

When I purchased mine, I fitted a (1) permanent mast-head backstay (fully adjustable), (2) an inner forestay (removeable for cans racing), (3) check-stays (fully adjustable).

 

The check-stays mostly control the pumping of the mast in an uncomforable wave set, that usually happens as the wind is dying so you need to change course, to slightly more comfortable and keep your speed up. Also the ckeck-stays should be attached on the main running back-stays on there upper block (just out of photo), with the adjustment there (say 6 to 1, with cam-lock or similar). The check-stays are finely adjusted and set for each tack or gybe-set, you will get use to it and it comes automatically, almost. On my boat, mine are length marked, so when tacking with them set, they are then left set, checked only when I'm bored - takes about a minute after a tack for me to get bored hahaha.

 

So when tacking (mast-head on and adjusted for mast pre-bend), simply prime (part tension) the on-coming running back-stay, say, starting to alter the shape of the main, (oh 4 crew onboard), call "ready to tack", wait for all the crew relevant to answer, then call "tacking". At this point, - I am at the wheel and I do the back-stays - I am holding the off-going backstay in my hand still tensioned on the which drum (4-6 wraps usually, down to 2-3 wraps), and not in the tailer, as the main starts to back-wind this is released and unfurled off the drum, importantly leaving one only wrap on the drum, then casually move across the wheel to the other winch and wind it on, while watching the rest of the crew complete there duties, course and other boats. And yes winding on them is a good workout on a tacking dual, but speed through the tack is important there, not too fast about 8-15 second tack, set and adjusted in about 25-30 seconds total, done - that was fun, lets go again - "ready to tack" (said quietly so the other boat's crew's don't hear).

 

Once mastered I garrantee you even the sports boats wont be able to tack much faster.

 

Now gybing, "ready to gybe". you get the idea. 3 differences. (1) Symetrical spinnaker is jybed first or just droped if shorthanded. (2) Assymetrical is furled or droped, usually short-handed with this one. (3) The main (full-batten) is centred on the track as the Backstay is primed, off-going released, boat steered to gybe the main, the main is fed out gently, watching the off-going backstay sheet rope run cleanly, thats the trick - it gets stuck, as there is almost 20metres of it to run sometimes. This method reduces most the violent and dangerous back-stay shock loadings while gybing. Oh and the women can still hold there drinks. they are the first thing you move prior to any tack or gybe. When my wife is onboard she helps me with - oh - the backstay priming and letting off or not.

 

What I do in a windward-leeward race at the leeward mark is not recomended at first, as I run a sheets/braces set-up. I hoist my correct head-sail for my next course, set it approximately (remember the sheets etc are pre-marked), must be on the correct gybe-set already, obviously. Then I drop the spinnaker (peeled) as we go round the leeward mark behind the already set head-sail, never goes in the water (thats a shout in the bar). The guy who peels it casually moves back along the head-sail and pulls it in at the back of the head-sail, leaning on it if nead-be. The guy at the piano keys releasing the halyard must watch that the spinnaker is controlled down. Note you need 5 guys who know what they are doing, 4 is minimum - leaves no one spare if something goes wrong, and every race there is at least one rope that gets caught somewhere.

 

When short handed (solo), I love the tacking option on the auto-pilot. The back-stays are primed, prime the head-sail (mast-head pre-adjusted), release the backstay out of the jammer (I run it to the main cockpit) and down to 3 wraps on the drum (holding it under my foot), press the auto-tack, yacht starts to tack, release the runner, headsail accross and set, tension the on-going (windward) runner, trim as required, done 35-40 seconds absolute max (usually 25). Check trim, on everything.

 

At this point you need to know that the tension on the forestay is controlled by the runners, this is your boats pointing ability, go forward, look up you forestay, should almost straight, say 1inch per 10 feet, I can get early 20's aparent (obviously starting to loose speed).

 

Have I scared the shit out of you yet, be warned!!

 

Its also the source of a lot of team-work and fun.

 

Also, when things go wrong, and they will, the runners are usually the cause or not helping the situation. They get caught on everything imaginable and not - even the transom, man overboard gear, tweekers, rails, your feet, hands, oh god help.

 

Before all you criticts get into me - I will tell you, my old IOR boat is not the fastest, but she has won single, double-handed and regattas (handicap) races set-up this way. Granted its hard work and you need you facalties about you, with planning even a tack, and especially a gybe, with an assy up.

 

But above all have fun.

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ID48's mast were luckily overbuilt. I can't remember a time during the years they toured of one failing. A couple goose-necks, but no masts. They were definitely pushed to the limit with countless runner miscues on all boats. I remember one day in Key West when 3 of the boats came in with cracked/broken spreaders due to the runners not getting on quick enough during gybes, thus mast inverting. Not everyone held the old runner on and centered the main long enough to get the new one on.

 

These were definitely fun boats to race but are one of the most crew intense big boats around the buoys. If any of the 12 crew screwed up their job at a corner, you knew it.

 

I don't know if any or all of them still have their water ballast tanks in them. The only time those were used during the series was during the class overnight race from Newport to Manhattan.

 

As far as the runners go, let's just say being primary grinder was an easier position than doing runners during BBS.

 

Good luck regardless which boat you end up with.

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Generally, there's a reason big cheap boats are cheap. Not so much acquiring an asset as giving yourself exposure to a liability.

 

Well said sir!

 

Yep totally agree.

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It sure looks like twin running backstays to me. I see no permanant backstay there, just the twin runners.

 

Good luck with the purchase.

 

 

yeah definitely.

 

But check stays appear not to be there... (i thought someone said they were) which would have made it a bit more complex....

 

IRC cert confirms... 3 spreaders, 1 jumper Set, 1 Runner Set.

 

 

Actually looking at this picture... maybe the check stays are there... but in the same blocks?

 

 

 

 

Prozac,

I take it you are quite keen on the yacht - fellars - he must be a tradgic case like the rest of us.

 

Ok, if you purchase this yacht, everyone here is correct and you cant underestimate how important the runners are. I have a yacht with the exact same rig and runner set-up, (your picture shows check-stays as well), 3 spedder and diamond.

 

When I purchased mine, I fitted a (1) permanent mast-head backstay (fully adjustable), (2) an inner forestay (removeable for cans racing), (3) check-stays (fully adjustable).

 

The check-stays mostly control the pumping of the mast in an uncomforable wave set, that usually happens as the wind is dying so you need to change course, to slightly more comfortable and keep your speed up. Also the ckeck-stays should be attached on the main running back-stays on there upper block (just out of photo), with the adjustment there (say 6 to 1, with cam-lock or similar). The check-stays are finely adjusted and set for each tack or gybe-set, you will get use to it and it comes automatically, almost. On my boat, mine are length marked, so when tacking with them set, they are then left set, checked only when I'm bored - takes about a minute after a tack for me to get bored hahaha.

 

So when tacking (mast-head on and adjusted for mast pre-bend), simply prime (part tension) the on-coming running back-stay, say, starting to alter the shape of the main, (oh 4 crew onboard), call "ready to tack", wait for all the crew relevant to answer, then call "tacking". At this point, - I am at the wheel and I do the back-stays - I am holding the off-going backstay in my hand still tensioned on the which drum (4-6 wraps usually, down to 2-3 wraps), and not in the tailer, as the main starts to back-wind this is released and unfurled off the drum, importantly leaving one only wrap on the drum, then casually move across the wheel to the other winch and wind it on, while watching the rest of the crew complete there duties, course and other boats. And yes winding on them is a good workout on a tacking dual, but speed through the tack is important there, not too fast about 8-15 second tack, set and adjusted in about 25-30 seconds total, done - that was fun, lets go again - "ready to tack" (said quietly so the other boat's crew's don't hear).

 

Once mastered I garrantee you even the sports boats wont be able to tack much faster.

 

Now gybing, "ready to gybe". you get the idea. 3 differences. (1) Symetrical spinnaker is jybed first or just droped if shorthanded. (2) Assymetrical is furled or droped, usually short-handed with this one. (3) The main (full-batten) is centred on the track as the Backstay is primed, off-going released, boat steered to gybe the main, the main is fed out gently, watching the off-going backstay sheet rope run cleanly, thats the trick - it gets stuck, as there is almost 20metres of it to run sometimes. This method reduces most the violent and dangerous back-stay shock loadings while gybing. Oh and the women can still hold there drinks. they are the first thing you move prior to any tack or gybe. When my wife is onboard she helps me with - oh - the backstay priming and letting off or not.

 

What I do in a windward-leeward race at the leeward mark is not recomended at first, as I run a sheets/braces set-up. I hoist my correct head-sail for my next course, set it approximately (remember the sheets etc are pre-marked), must be on the correct gybe-set already, obviously. Then I drop the spinnaker (peeled) as we go round the leeward mark behind the already set head-sail, never goes in the water (thats a shout in the bar). The guy who peels it casually moves back along the head-sail and pulls it in at the back of the head-sail, leaning on it if nead-be. The guy at the piano keys releasing the halyard must watch that the spinnaker is controlled down. Note you need 5 guys who know what they are doing, 4 is minimum - leaves no one spare if something goes wrong, and every race there is at least one rope that gets caught somewhere.

 

When short handed (solo), I love the tacking option on the auto-pilot. The back-stays are primed, prime the head-sail (mast-head pre-adjusted), release the backstay out of the jammer (I run it to the main cockpit) and down to 3 wraps on the drum (holding it under my foot), press the auto-tack, yacht starts to tack, release the runner, headsail accross and set, tension the on-going (windward) runner, trim as required, done 35-40 seconds absolute max (usually 25). Check trim, on everything.

 

At this point you need to know that the tension on the forestay is controlled by the runners, this is your boats pointing ability, go forward, look up you forestay, should almost straight, say 1inch per 10 feet, I can get early 20's aparent (obviously starting to loose speed).

 

Have I scared the shit out of you yet, be warned!!

 

Its also the source of a lot of team-work and fun.

 

Also, when things go wrong, and they will, the runners are usually the cause or not helping the situation. They get caught on everything imaginable and not - even the transom, man overboard gear, tweekers, rails, your feet, hands, oh god help.

 

Before all you criticts get into me - I will tell you, my old IOR boat is not the fastest, but she has won single, double-handed and regattas (handicap) races set-up this way. Granted its hard work and you need you facalties about you, with planning even a tack, and especially a gybe, with an assy up.

 

But above all have fun.

 

Thank you for such a detailed post.

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Thanks gents.

 

Mixed bag of opinions.

 

But I'm sure that is the same as any boat.

 

 

Judging on how you intend to treat the runners and what people have said about the vital role they play I doubt you'll have to worry about them for very long.

 

How anyone can have overlooked this remark is beyond me.

 

+1000.

 

Prozak, please buy the 1D48, and keep us all updated on your yachting adventures in the Solent and the Channel.

 

This has the all the ingredients of an entertaining summer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For Us. :ph34r:

 

Haha.

 

I promise I'll post video or photos if I'm alive.

:)

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Generally, there's a reason big cheap boats are cheap. Not so much acquiring an asset as giving yourself exposure to a liability.

 

Yup. Exactly. Unless the dude has a budget of 100-150 boatunits a year it it a bad idea. The fact that boats like a beachball 40.7 was on the explore list tells me that he has absolotely NO business sailing an 1D48 - totally polar opposite types of boats

 

40.7 was not a serious option. It was only in there as a wife friendly alternative.

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ID48's mast were luckily overbuilt. I can't remember a time during the years they toured of one failing. A couple goose-necks, but no masts. They were definitely pushed to the limit with countless runner miscues on all boats. I remember one day in Key West when 3 of the boats came in with cracked/broken spreaders due to the runners not getting on quick enough during gybes, thus mast inverting. Not everyone held the old runner on and centered the main long enough to get the new one on.

 

These were definitely fun boats to race but are one of the most crew intense big boats around the buoys. If any of the 12 crew screwed up their job at a corner, you knew it.

 

I don't know if any or all of them still have their water ballast tanks in them. The only time those were used during the series was during the class overnight race from Newport to Manhattan.

 

As far as the runners go, let's just say being primary grinder was an easier position than doing runners during BBS.

 

Good luck regardless which boat you end up with.

 

Thanks.

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I sail in Cleveland against Flyer...(never on it) and I've talked to the crew a lot about the boat. based on thier comments I think the 'tiller' needs to be switched back to the wheel - in a reach they have 2 guys holding it place (huge loads do to the position of the rudder and aspect). I see now why they've always complained about the boat downwind - I didn't realize it can't plain...that sucks for such a cool llooking boat.

 

i'm pretty sure the owner has another boat in mind to buy so he might be motivated...(not that you need it w/the exchange rate these days).

 

the work on the boat was done by Tartan/C&C - top quality factory...

 

 

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. I see now why they've always complained about the boat downwind - I didn't realize it can't plain...that sucks for such a cool llooking boat.

 

Yeah. That is a bugger.

 

She is proper boat porn.

 

Have hulls gotten much better in the past 10 years?

 

 

Most if the development seems to have been under water.

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Think its more materials, myself. Are the 48's in carbon? Noticiable that the 1D 48 is 8100kg, compared to 7300kg for a TP52. How much stiffer is the TP?

 

 

possibly correct there.....

 

SP systems have definitely improved their pre-preg materials.....

 

I have a mind blank as to what the 48 is....... its getting mixed up with other boats.... Kevlar/Epoxy maybe?... though that might be the ILC40 i was looking at......

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Think its more materials, myself. Are the 48's in carbon? Noticiable that the 1D 48 is 8100kg, compared to 7300kg for a TP52. How much stiffer is the TP?

 

 

possibly correct there.....

 

SP systems have definitely improved their pre-preg materials.....

 

I have a mind blank as to what the 48 is....... its getting mixed up with other boats.... Kevlar/Epoxy maybe?... though that might be the ILC40 i was looking at......

Its just SP and prepregs. The core materials are better and there is a much better idea about engineering and building good structures now. Saying that every now and again there's a fuckup.

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Think its more materials, myself. Are the 48's in carbon? Noticiable that the 1D 48 is 8100kg, compared to 7300kg for a TP52. How much stiffer is the TP?

 

 

possibly correct there.....

 

SP systems have definitely improved their pre-preg materials.....

 

I have a mind blank as to what the 48 is....... its getting mixed up with other boats.... Kevlar/Epoxy maybe?... though that might be the ILC40 i was looking at......

 

 

As I recall, the OD48 was a carbon fiber lay-up. They were built by TPI in Bristol, RI using their SCRIMP process....an early resin infusion technique. Its a heavier boat than the TP52, designed that way; just a different era in race design and enough before the TP52 rule to make a difference. For their time, the OD48 was a fast boat and pretty rugged but not really comparable to the TP52 performance, especially off the wind.

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The 1 D 48 is carbon fiber, but the keel weighs about 9000 tons or at least it feels that heavy in light winds.

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It is worth noting that the boats were built to be one design boats with waterballast. Hence the weight issues are too be expected to some extent. The class had very tight restrictions on what could be changed on the boats. I remember in the 1996 (or so) SORC seeing each boat round the windward mark and promptly blow the vang. All eight in a row. The breeze was up and it was a trip. Did not matter what or how the crews attempted to protect it, the vang blew... It is well established that some of the equipment, winches... were undersized. Why, I am not sure, but even when you knew it was undersized you were not allowed to change it out.

For their time the boats were reall cool. The Devos' in founding the class hoped to replace the IOR/IMS 50s thinking that all of the coin being dropped by the programs from season to season was stupid and that the owners would prefer to have good level racing without the cost and temptation to go out and spend a ton on changing a keel... They thought with a very tighly regulated one design class with good boats the 50s class could be replaced. Funny thing was that the class failed because, while some liked the class and idea behind it, too many other owners actually wanted to spend the money trying to get an advantage of design or change...

 

Anyway, it explains why the boats came out a bit heavy. BTW, if you ever sailed one you would know it was carbon. One of the first boats to make that screaming loud carbon sound when easing the jib/spin or whatever.

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Spec'ed undersize because they were trying to save weight or they were trying to save money?

 

The latter most likely.

 

I would assume it was a money issue as I noted above, since they were planning to level sail the boats adding weight was not an issue as it would all be equal. And I don't think that it as a going on the cheep issue, but rather trying to keep the cost down so the purchase package was more attractive. Keep in mind, one thing the Devos family has is coin, plus.

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Raced one a few seasons in SoCal. Very fun PHRF boat (-30?) Never used the water ballast. The carbon mast is so strong it may tear up the cabin top first, used jack for tuning and setting up. It does plane or rather, mushes a little - must work it. Won some stuff. Pretty easy to deliver. Can be carefully sailed (tacked too) with 3-4. Ice box will hold about 110 cans of beer. Needs 9-14 strong, dedicated crew - and everybody needs skills in their spot or result will be expensive broken things, torn stuff, slowness, pain or, death. At the spin set, the sheets/guys are preset - the foreguy cam is right next to the primary. You sit your newbie who-knows-it-all down in that position, drive deep and ask for pole back and wait for the pit to slap him in the head before he pulls the cam cleat out of the deck! The onboard GPS (Navistar?) had a breadcrumb trail feature: panned around Long Island race in east coast years earlier:it showed 19+ knots for an extended period. So, the ladies probably needed to bring a snorkel on that race. Alum boom. A new $20k square top main would keep you loading up the silverware and pickle dishes in the SoCal light stuff. Blue pics are really sad looking. Bow, mast, mid mast, trimmers grinders tactician runners all need to be fed too.. big programs, big money.

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Makes one wonder if the new owners of the NorCal boat knew what they were getting into.

 

9 - 14 strong, dedicated crew?

 

An owner (with crew who already has raced well together but just not a 1D48) would do well to run into someone who has experience racing them.

A crew that wants to stretch are well served to train on one of these boats. A farr 40 doesn't seem nearly as intimidating afterward.

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I'd echo Asymptote's comments. I race against the local 1D48 regularly here on Puget Sound. The boat performs well in moderate air and flat water, but it's heavy and pushes alot of water. The crew on the boat are top notch and it is competetive with other decently sailed boats, but it's a completely different beast from a TP52 or anything that can convert bigger breeze to foward movement. It's also a completely different level of sailing and concentration from the Farr 40 or 40.7. We always had a hoot sailing against the 1D48 in big breeze because it was an automatic win for us.

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Makes one wonder if the new owners of the NorCal boat knew what they were getting into.

 

9 - 14 strong, dedicated crew?

+ 10

 

The campaign costs of a 1D48 are pretty steep, and your crew better be pretty capable.

 

Not a boat for the timid or inexperienced crew.

 

I looked at buying one three years back, and was quickly dissuaded from doing so for several reasons.

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We sail a n/m 50 that has very similar setup to the OD 48.

9 crew around the cans is possible but not fun. 12-14 is our sweet spot for #'s

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We always had a hoot sailing against the 1D48 in big breeze because it was an automatic win for us.

 

 

this could be the nail in the coffin for it really...... for me anyway.... think average windspeed where I am is F 4-5

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get a schock40...planing is no issue. 6 crew. easily double handed sailed...just saying...trailerable as well...

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get a schock40...planing is no issue. 6 crew. easily double handed sailed...just saying...trailerable as well...

 

yeah, trailering is real easy when you dont even have to worry about the keel.... sorry, low blow, i love those boats.

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