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Shootist Jeff

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Oooops!

 

Brit commandos

 

Interesting article. Thanks.

 

Arron David Miller is, IMO, 180 off. There are too many downsides for too many nations with this working out to either a long extended civil war or Qadaffi winning. The only question, should the rebels get bogged down, is how much of and what type of assistance they will get, and perhaps the names of who will go on record as providing it.

 

Qadaffi wants to negotiate? I'm sure the rebels got a good laugh out of that. Show mercy if he gets back in charge, will he? Yeah, right...

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Another article about the Brit embarrassment. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/06/liam-fox-sas-unit-libya

 

 

Strangelovian Quote of the Day:

A senior member of the Benghazi council said of the Brits "This is no way to conduct yourself during an uprising!"

 

Nice!

 

And I agree, I think its only a matter of time rather than IF the west gets involved. I heard on NPR that NATO was having meetings on it next week. How THIS fucking week???? It might be the one really good chance to show the arab world that we really DO stand for liberty and democracy and not just oil. And of course as usual, we will ahve to take the lead on this while the Euros drag their feet and wring their hands.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

 

take your hand off it jeff

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Another article about the Brit embarrassment. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/06/liam-fox-sas-unit-libya

 

 

Strangelovian Quote of the Day:

A senior member of the Benghazi council said of the Brits "This is no way to conduct yourself during an uprising!"

 

Nice!

 

And I agree, I think its only a matter of time rather than IF the west gets involved. I heard on NPR that NATO was having meetings on it next week. How THIS fucking week???? It might be the one really good chance to show the arab world that we really DO stand for liberty and democracy and not just oil. And of course as usual, we will ahve to take the lead on this while the Euros drag their feet and wring their hands.

 

Been trying to get information, but it's total chaos in there. Of course, everybody claims victory in every skirmish, but some things do appear to be consistent.

 

The Rebels are completely disorganized, have little ammo, less food, nobody knows what exactly they are doing at any given time, not even them. Reminds me of the paratroops in the Normandy drop, individuals are gathering together and striking at the nearest thing they can find, with practically zero command and control. Many of the fighters are riding on missions completely unarmed, praying to Allah that they will find something to fight with on the battlefield, so the one thing there is no shortage of is zeal. The other bit of good news is that Qadaffi's boys, at least for now, are as bad.

 

Food is looming as a real show stopper for them. The country imports nearly all of it, and there will soon be none.

 

We gotta get these guys the basics before Qadaffi gets his shit together, or they might well find themselves getting rolled back all the way to Benghazi. But how? Lots of midnight oil burning, I'm sure.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

OH, bullshit! Every libyan I've seen on TV is BEGGING for the US to help them and are incredulous we haven't yet. At no point am I advocating sending in ground troops there. For one, we don't have many left that are not already pre-occupied. But we can be doing quite a bit of other stuff like getting the rebels food, guns, and ammo.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

OH, bullshit! Every libyan I've seen on TV is BEGGING for the US to help them and are incredulous we haven't yet. At no point am I advocating sending in ground troops there. For one, we don't have many left that are not already pre-occupied. But we can be doing quite a bit of other stuff like getting the rebels food, guns, and ammo.

 

Well we can say that the propaganda machine is still alive and well in the USA. So who are the rebels fighting with then? they are not all members of Gadaffi's family or hired soldiers of fortune. Some people honestly believe in the guy. :blink:

 

I Agree Gadaffi is a tryant and should go, but only if the people want it. And only by the people.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

OH, bullshit! Every libyan I've seen on TV is BEGGING for the US to help them and are incredulous we haven't yet. At no point am I advocating sending in ground troops there. For one, we don't have many left that are not already pre-occupied. But we can be doing quite a bit of other stuff like getting the rebels food, guns, and ammo.

 

Well we can say that the propaganda machine is still alive and well in the USA. So who are the rebels fighting with then? they are not all members of Gadaffi's family or hired soldiers of fortune. Some people honestly believe in the guy. :blink:

 

I Agree Gadaffi is a tryant and should go, but only if the people want it. And only by the people.

Agreed, they need to stand on their own feet no matter how bad it gets. Everytime there is outside intervention it undermines any new regime that takes over. First accusation will always be that the new regime is a "poodle" of which ever country/ies that got involved.

 

Lets be honest we haven't really helped a lot anywhere that we have intervened.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

OH, bullshit! Every libyan I've seen on TV is BEGGING for the US to help them and are incredulous we haven't yet. At no point am I advocating sending in ground troops there. For one, we don't have many left that are not already pre-occupied. But we can be doing quite a bit of other stuff like getting the rebels food, guns, and ammo.

Funny how conservatives don't trust the liberal mainstream media except when they trust the media.

 

Ever think that the only guys that get on TV are the ones who are asking for Bush? Maybe not the same guys that arrested the British, eh?

 

Go Team Red! White! and Blue!

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Send in the Simple Jack La-Z-Boy Warrior Division ®. Improve two countries with one invasion. Libya could use a laugh.

 

Problem(s) SOLved.

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Send in the Simple Jack La-Z-Boy Warrior Division ®. Improve two countries with one invasion. Libya could use a laugh.

 

Problem(s) SOLved.

That would be an efficient use of resources. This very green use of resources is worthy of LEED certification.

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Send in the Simple Jack La-Z-Boy Warrior Division ®. Improve two countries with one invasion. Libya could use a laugh.

 

Problem(s) SOLved.

That would be an efficient use of resources. This very green use of resources is worthy of LEED certification.

The reduction in Hot Air ® alone would be enough to reduce global warming.

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Just a guess, but I've got a feeling the Al Sauds are behind the scenes telling the US to stay out. If the US gets involved in an internal civil war, it will embolden protestors in other countries. Face it, our SUV driving culture is addicted to cheap'ish oil, and the Sauds hold those cards.

 

BTW - there are lots of civil wars where we DON'T get involved - I think there's one down the Ivory Coast way right now, and I don't hear clamoring to send in the troops.

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Just a guess, but I've got a feeling the Al Sauds are behind the scenes telling the US to stay out. If the US gets involved in an internal civil war, it will embolden protestors in other countries. Face it, our SUV driving culture is addicted to cheap'ish oil, and the Sauds hold those cards.

 

BTW - there are lots of civil wars where we DON'T get involved - I think there's one down the Ivory Coast way right now, and I don't hear clamoring to send in the troops.

I'm not sure the Saudi's would analyze the situation in that way, but along those lines I'm sure there are vast amounts of happenings behind the scenes that the La-Z-boy Warrior 2nd Guesser Division is not privy to.

 

I could support some intervention in Ivory Coast. With so much of their economy dependent on cocoa beans I bet even a limited bombing campaign would make the entire country smell like freshly baked brownies, a win/win for all parties involved.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

OH, bullshit! Every libyan I've seen on TV is BEGGING for the US to help them and are incredulous we haven't yet. At no point am I advocating sending in ground troops there. For one, we don't have many left that are not already pre-occupied. But we can be doing quite a bit of other stuff like getting the rebels food, guns, and ammo.

 

Well we can say that the propaganda machine is still alive and well in the USA. So who are the rebels fighting with then? they are not all members of Gadaffi's family or hired soldiers of fortune. Some people honestly believe in the guy. :blink:

 

I Agree Gadaffi is a tryant and should go, but only if the people want it. And only by the people.

 

So let's just watch them fight helicopters and machine guns bare handed and see how it shakes out? That will tell us what the "will of the people" is?

 

No. It's in everybody's best interest to see this be a short war. Especially for the old, and the women and kids that live in there.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

OH, bullshit! Every libyan I've seen on TV is BEGGING for the US to help them and are incredulous we haven't yet. At no point am I advocating sending in ground troops there. For one, we don't have many left that are not already pre-occupied. But we can be doing quite a bit of other stuff like getting the rebels food, guns, and ammo.

 

Well we can say that the propaganda machine is still alive and well in the USA. So who are the rebels fighting with then? they are not all members of Gadaffi's family or hired soldiers of fortune. Some people honestly believe in the guy. :blink:

 

I Agree Gadaffi is a tryant and should go, but only if the people want it. And only by the people.

 

So let's just watch them fight helicopters and machine guns bare handed and see how it shakes out? That will tell us what the "will of the people" is?

 

No. It's in everybody's best interest to see this be a short war. Especially for the old, and the women and kids that live in there.

Thank you.

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Jeff, getting ugly in Ivory Coast - should we go there as well?

 

What about Bahrain? Getting ugly.

 

There's gotta be a couple other little shit-hole wars we can get engaged in.

 

And are you ready for the "getting involved in another place where we aren't wanted" tax? Or can we borrow from the Chinese for this one too.

 

Put the sabres down and back away guys - this ain't our fight.

 

 

Is there a plight of the innocent? Yes - and we should help with humanitarian aid and criminal prosecutions when it comes to that.

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I think the United States must be humble and must be proud and confident of our values, but humble in how we treat nations that are figuring out how to chart their own course.

 

Even Newsmax has an article about staying out of Libya being favored. 63% want the US to stay out of Libya, 22% think we should be more involved, and 15% want to wait to see what their party says should be done before committing.

 

What's a La-Z-Boy Warrior gotta do to get a real war going these days?

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Another article about the Brit embarrassment. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/06/liam-fox-sas-unit-libya

 

 

Strangelovian Quote of the Day:

A senior member of the Benghazi council said of the Brits "This is no way to conduct yourself during an uprising!"

 

I wish the 'Who's better: SAS vs. Navy Seals? thread was still around.

 

I can't ever recall the Seals being captured by the same people who invited them.

 

Challenged by guards at a wheat farm, they were forced to open bags containing weapons, reconnaissance equipment, and multiple passports, then herded into a dormitory before they were handed over to the rebels

 

I wonder if they have wheat colored camos?

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Another article about the Brit embarrassment. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/06/liam-fox-sas-unit-libya

 

 

Strangelovian Quote of the Day:

A senior member of the Benghazi council said of the Brits "This is no way to conduct yourself during an uprising!"

 

I wish the 'Who's better: SAS vs. Navy Seals? thread was still around.

 

I can't ever recall the Seals being captured by the same people who invited them.

 

Challenged by guards at a wheat farm, they were forced to open bags containing weapons, reconnaissance equipment, and multiple passports, then herded into a dormitory before they were handed over to the rebels

 

I wonder if they have wheat colored camos?

 

At this point, direct action commandos are not what we send. We send the Green Berets, who have been re-born in their original mission to some degree. The miltary brass has always been uncomfortable with that, and had done everything they could to transform them into just another batch of commandos, from the ending of Nam to about 2002 or so.

 

The Brits have no equivalent. Unconventional warfare is a different game from special ops.

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Uh oh - time to get the machines of war ready - Yemen getting ugly. They even closed the schools!

 

 

 

 

Yemen police open fire on protesters wounding four(AFP) – 4 hours ago

 

SANAA — Yemeni police opened fire on demonstrators attempting to expand a protest camp in the capital Sanaa on Tuesday wounding at least four, medics said.

 

The police fired both tear gas and live rounds in an effort to prevent the protesters against President Ali Abdullah Saleh's three-decade rule expanding the camp they have set up in a square near Sanaa university, an AFP correspondent reported.

 

There were also clashes between demonstrators and security forces in the south of Yemen. One policeman was wounded as hundreds of schoolchildren took to the streets of the city of Ataq, in Shabwa province, on the third straight day of protests demanding that Saleh quit, witnesses said.

 

One policeman was hurt by a hurled stone when security forces fired warning shots to disperse demonstrators who tried to storm education ministry offices in the town.

 

Schools in the main southern city of Aden were also shut as demonstrators called on staff and pupils to join their protests, a ministry official said.

 

"We have decided to send pupils back home and close the schools over the coming days, in anticipation of violence, and to avoid having them directed by the opposition towards bad conduct," the official said requesting anonymity.

 

Hundreds of schoolchildren joined the protests in Aden, chanting "no studying, no teaching, until the president falls," witnesses said.

 

The opposition vowed on Sunday to intensify its protests against Saleh after the embattled president -- in power since 1978 -- refused its demands for him to resign by the end of the year.

 

The demonstrations in Yemen echo political turmoil that has gripped many Arab nations this year, forcing the presidents of Tunisia and Egypt to quit and throwing Libya into deadly conflict.

 

Amnesty International said at least 27 people have been killed in Yemen since the protests against Saleh's rule began on January 27.

 

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Been to Libya 26 times, drove the 1,004 km from Tripoli to Benghazi countless times without killing (or being killed by) a single camel, built power and desalination plants in Sirte (Qaddafi's birthplace) and Ben Jawad, where the 'front' now is.

 

No need to intervene, Qaddafi's on the way out, no risk by fundamentalists: unlike Egypt they are not too many and they've got oil, never seen Arabs that could drink so much whisky as down there.

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Been to Libya 26 times, drove the 1,004 km from Tripoli to Benghazi countless times without killing (or being killed by) a single camel, built power and desalination plants in Sirte (Qaddafi's birthplace) and Ben Jawad, where the 'front' now is.

 

No need to intervene, Qaddafi's on the way out, no risk by fundamentalists: unlike Egypt they are not too many and they've got oil, never seen Arabs that could drink so much whisky as down there.

 

Camel bites can be nasty.

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What you stand for liberty and democracy by sending in your troops??? Yeah that will work. There is only one thing Libyans hate more than Gadaffi at the moment and that is the thought of US soldiers in the sovereign space.

 

OH, bullshit! Every libyan I've seen on TV is BEGGING for the US to help them and are incredulous we haven't yet. At no point am I advocating sending in ground troops there. For one, we don't have many left that are not already pre-occupied. But we can be doing quite a bit of other stuff like getting the rebels food, guns, and ammo.

 

Well we can say that the propaganda machine is still alive and well in the USA. So who are the rebels fighting with then? they are not all members of Gadaffi's family or hired soldiers of fortune. Some people honestly believe in the guy. :blink:

 

I Agree Gadaffi is a tryant and should go, but only if the people want it. And only by the people.

 

So let's just watch them fight helicopters and machine guns bare handed and see how it shakes out? That will tell us what the "will of the people" is?

 

No. It's in everybody's best interest to see this be a short war. Especially for the old, and the women and kids that live in there.

Thank you.

Jeff

 

Straight question for you.

 

Do you have an exit strategy?

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Camel bites can be nasty.

 

Only a problem if you're stupid enough to get near the things. OTOH, they can be fatal if hit by a car: springtime, they're left to graze by the side of the road and suddenly one of them decides the patch on the other side looks appetizing. And you've been driving for hours at 140 (km) on that straight road in the middle of nothing .. And the stench of the carcasses travels for miles

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Camel bites can be nasty.

 

Only a problem if you're stupid enough to get near the things. OTOH, they can be fatal if hit by a car: springtime, they're left to graze by the side of the road and suddenly one of them decides the patch on the other side looks appetizing. And you've been driving for hours at 140 (km) on that straight road in the middle of nothing .. And the stench of the carcasses travels for miles

 

They drop through the windshield like moose do too.

 

So how are the rebels supplies holding up?

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Oh, settle down. Yemen doesn't have any oil.

 

Now that you've confirmed you dont't know what you are talking about, please leave.

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So how are the rebels supplies holding up?

 

With them controlling the main oil terminal of Marsa El Brega and Egypt next door, shouldn't be a problem. I'm positive under the table arrangements have already been made by oil companies even before governments.

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Oh, settle down. Yemen doesn't have any oil.

 

Now that you've confirmed you dont't know what you are talking about, please leave.

 

Sez who? You? Somebody who can't craft anything better than dismissal by contempt? I think not.

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So how are the rebels supplies holding up?

 

With them controlling the main oil terminal of Marsa El Brega and Egypt next door, shouldn't be a problem. I'm positive under the table arrangements have already been made by oil companies even before governments.

 

The oil workers have all up and left. Refinery has been shut down. Predictions are they will be out of fuel very soon.

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Oh, settle down. Yemen doesn't have any oil.

 

Now that you've confirmed you dont't know what you are talking about, please leave.

 

Uh? IIRC they have very little. You don't mean Oman? That surprised me, went back to Muscat two weeks ago for the Extreme races.

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The oil workers have all up and left. Refinery has been shut down. Predictions are they will be out of fuel very soon.

 

Ever heard of credit and goodwill? :) As a minimum, they can truck crude to Egypt.

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Oh, settle down. Yemen doesn't have any oil.

 

Now that you've confirmed you dont't know what you are talking about, please leave.

 

Uh? IIRC they have very little. You don't mean Oman? That surprised me, went back to Muscat two weeks ago for the Extreme races.

 

They have a tiny bit, but it is predicted to run out in just a few more years. Inconsequential. Except to the trolls who merely want to attack the messenger, who was only making a fucking joke, BTW.

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The oil workers have all up and left. Refinery has been shut down. Predictions are they will be out of fuel very soon.

 

Ever heard of credit and goodwill? :)

 

So we agree, they will need help. I thought you were saying that they needed none, but I must have been mistaken.

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So we agree, they will need help. I thought you were saying that they needed none, but I must have been mistaken.

 

I said no need to intervene. Merely recognizing the provisional government and turning over frozen assets should be enough, if things drag on.

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So we agree, they will need help. I thought you were saying that they needed none, but I must have been mistaken.

 

I said no need to intervene. Merely recognizing the provisional government and turning over frozen assets should be enough, if things drag on.

 

I just view recognizing the rebels as the legitimate government and handing Libya's money to them as intervention. It's tantamount to an act of war, allying with a nations rebels. I think that could take some time too. Act of Congress, meetings by NATO, that kind of thing.

 

I do not think we need to land Marines in there, but they may need some air support. The first months of Afghanistan is the model.

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I do not think we need to land Marines in there, but they may need some air support. The first months of Afghanistan is the model.

 

Some small-scale model! No, you've got to take into account Arab mentality - any foreign direct involvement, be it from their Egyptian 'brothers' would be the kiss of death. Plus, it would spoil their fun.

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I do not think we need to land Marines in there, but they may need some air support. The first months of Afghanistan is the model.

 

Some small-scale model! No, you've got to take into account Arab mentality - any foreign direct involvement, be it from their Egyptian 'brothers' would be the kiss of death. Plus, it would spoil their fun.

 

They are asking for air support.

 

The Northern Alliance didn't bitch much about the few CIA guys it took to coordinate the planes. I suspect neither would these guys.

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Americans ... can't you leave well enough alone? They're having the time of their life, something they'll be telling their grandchildren about. Everything else is just posturing.

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Americans ... can't you leave well enough alone? They're having the time of their life, something they'll be telling their grandchildren about. Everything else is just posturing.

 

Well enough? Maybe for a Somalian.

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Oh, settle down. Yemen doesn't have any oil.

 

Now that you've confirmed you dont't know what you are talking about, please leave.

 

Uh? IIRC they have very little. You don't mean Oman? That surprised me, went back to Muscat two weeks ago for the Extreme races.

 

They have a tiny bit, but it is predicted to run out in just a few more years. Inconsequential. Except to the trolls who merely want to attack the messenger, who was only making a fucking joke, BTW.

 

Oh that was a joke? Sorry it was a sucky one. They have decling production currrently about 300,000 bbls a day. More than Gabon, Brunei. Hunt Oil has been there for years we moved allot of it to the states. gas and oil reserves are not suprisingly most of their GNP. Several multinational oil companies have been there for years. and remain there.

 

North Korea has no oil. On a good day they have cabbage. PLease make a joke about them.

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Oh, settle down. Yemen doesn't have any oil.

 

Now that you've confirmed you dont't know what you are talking about, please leave.

 

Uh? IIRC they have very little. You don't mean Oman? That surprised me, went back to Muscat two weeks ago for the Extreme races.

 

They have a tiny bit, but it is predicted to run out in just a few more years. Inconsequential. Except to the trolls who merely want to attack the messenger, who was only making a fucking joke, BTW.

 

Oh that was a joke? Sorry it was a sucky one. They have decling production currrently about 300,000 bbls a day. More than Gabon, Brunei. Hunt Oil has been there for years we moved allot of it to the states. gas and oil reserves are not suprisingly most of their GNP. Several multinational oil companies have been there for years. and remain there.

 

North Korea has no oil. On a good day they have cabbage. PLease make a joke about them.

 

 

It was a very good joke, just not one you can comprehend.

 

Yemen ranks a whopping 38th in the world in oil production? Wow. Clearly an important strategic asset. I stand corrected.

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Jeff

 

Straight question for you.

 

Do you have an exit strategy?

An exit strategy implies there is an "entrance" strategy. I advocate nothing of the sort. What I di think we need to do is to airdrop in supplies to the rebels - guns, food, ammo, water, etc. A no-fly zone might be the next step. Sec GTes rightfully said that would constitute an act of war, because you would 1st have to go in and take down his air defenses. I'm ok with that. Normally in a civil war like this, I would say not to take sides. but since qadaffi has been proven to be hostile to the US, the west and is brutal to his own people - I think it's worth it.

 

Even more importantly, beyond the moral and economic (oil) justification..... I think there is a significant strategic move to be made here. I think the Arab world is approaching a crossroads in their history and they are looking for who are the good guys and who's not. The people are looking to see where the west comes out on this. And more importantly they're looking to see if we are only paying lip service to freedom and liberty or if we really believe. In the Arab street's eyes - they are specifically looking to see what the US does here. If we play this too cautious - we merely look like we are hedging our bets for whoever comes out on top. If we help the rebels, we tell the Arab world once and for all that we really do value freedom and liberty. In a sense, this might be the most significant anti-terrorism move we could ever make. And its especially so in Libya where we won't be seen as intervening for strictly oil or geography. Strategically, Libya is not all that important - save for the impression we could show the Arab street that we really are not the bad guys anymore.

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What I di think we need to do is to airdrop in supplies to the rebels - guns, food, ammo, water, etc.

 

And why on earth would you do that, when the Egyptian border's wide open? Unless you're thinking of doing it in the middle of street fighting in Zawiya and Misrata ..

 

Even more importantly, beyond the moral and economic (oil) justification..... I think there is a significant strategic move to be made here. I think the Arab world is approaching a crossroads in their history and they are looking for who are the good guys and who's not. The people are looking to see where the west comes out on this. And more importantly they're looking to see if we are only paying lip service to freedom and liberty or if we really believe. In the Arab street's eyes - they are specifically looking to see what the US does here.

 

Misplaced perception. These people have got their own set of values and aren't looking for yet another protector - just don't side with their foes

 

If we help the rebels, we tell the Arab world once and for all that we really do value freedom and liberty.

 

And scare the hell out of the House of Saud in the process.

 

I can only suggest you adopt a slightly less gung-ho attitude, in Abu Dhabi.

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Jeff

 

Straight question for you.

 

Do you have an exit strategy?

An exit strategy implies there is an "entrance" strategy. I advocate nothing of the sort. What I di think we need to do is to airdrop in supplies to the rebels - guns, food, ammo, water, etc. A no-fly zone might be the next step. Sec GTes rightfully said that would constitute an act of war, because you would 1st have to go in and take down his air defenses. I'm ok with that. Normally in a civil war like this, I would say not to take sides. but since qadaffi has been proven to be hostile to the US, the west and is brutal to his own people - I think it's worth it.

 

Even more importantly, beyond the moral and economic (oil) justification..... I think there is a significant strategic move to be made here. I think the Arab world is approaching a crossroads in their history and they are looking for who are the good guys and who's not. The people are looking to see where the west comes out on this. And more importantly they're looking to see if we are only paying lip service to freedom and liberty or if we really believe. In the Arab street's eyes - they are specifically looking to see what the US does here. If we play this too cautious - we merely look like we are hedging our bets for whoever comes out on top. If we help the rebels, we tell the Arab world once and for all that we really do value freedom and liberty. In a sense, this might be the most significant anti-terrorism move we could ever make. And its especially so in Libya where we won't be seen as intervening for strictly oil or geography. Strategically, Libya is not all that important - save for the impression we could show the Arab street that we really are not the bad guys anymore.

And when he's gone and it reverts back to tribal issues, which it will. Which tribe/s get the support? and which don't?

 

Its the one thing that most of the dictators could do and that was stop the tribes fighting.

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An exit strategy implies there is an "entrance" strategy. I advocate nothing of the sort. What I di think we need to do is to airdrop in supplies to the rebels - guns, food, ammo, water, etc. A no-fly zone might be the next step. Sec GTes rightfully said that would constitute an act of war, because you would 1st have to go in and take down his air defenses. I'm ok with that. Normally in a civil war like this, I would say not to take sides. but since qadaffi has been proven to be hostile to the US, the west and is brutal to his own people - I think it's worth it.

 

I think the Arab world is approaching a crossroads in their history and they are looking for who are the good guys and who's not. And more importantly they're looking to see if we are only paying lip service to freedom and liberty

If we help the rebels, we tell the Arab world once and for all that we really do value freedom and liberty.

 

Some of the rebels are saying they dont want or need any help they feel they can take care of it.

 

They want your moral support in removing the dictator and some help in stopping mercenaries entering from africa.

 

Truckloads of stuff is coming from Egypt.

 

A video from Libya you should watch it

 

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Before we go Rushing into conflict, I suggest looking at this:

 

That was fucking BRILLIANT! Thanks sol. :lol:

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Before we go Rushing into conflict, I suggest looking at this:

 

That was fucking BRILLIANT! Thanks sol. :lol:

The part about Mr. Clean had me on the floor. Funny stuff.

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Before we go Rushing into conflict, I suggest looking at this:

 

That was fucking BRILLIANT! Thanks sol. :lol:

The part about Mr. Clean had me on the floor. Funny stuff.

 

That's probably one of my top 3-5 fav movies, so that was priceless!

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Jeff

 

Straight question for you.

 

Do you have an exit strategy?

An exit strategy implies there is an "entrance" strategy. I advocate nothing of the sort. What I di think we need to do is to airdrop in supplies to the rebels - guns, food, ammo, water, etc. A no-fly zone might be the next step. Sec GTes rightfully said that would constitute an act of war, because you would 1st have to go in and take down his air defenses. I'm ok with that. Normally in a civil war like this, I would say not to take sides. but since qadaffi has been proven to be hostile to the US, the west and is brutal to his own people - I think it's worth it.

 

Even more importantly, beyond the moral and economic (oil) justification..... I think there is a significant strategic move to be made here. I think the Arab world is approaching a crossroads in their history and they are looking for who are the good guys and who's not. The people are looking to see where the west comes out on this. And more importantly they're looking to see if we are only paying lip service to freedom and liberty or if we really believe. In the Arab street's eyes - they are specifically looking to see what the US does here. If we play this too cautious - we merely look like we are hedging our bets for whoever comes out on top. If we help the rebels, we tell the Arab world once and for all that we really do value freedom and liberty. In a sense, this might be the most significant anti-terrorism move we could ever make. And its especially so in Libya where we won't be seen as intervening for strictly oil or geography. Strategically, Libya is not all that important - save for the impression we could show the Arab street that we really are not the bad guys anymore.

And when he's gone and it reverts back to tribal issues, which it will. Which tribe/s get the support? and which don't?

 

Its the one thing that most of the dictators could do and that was stop the tribes fighting.

 

About 90% of revolutions result in replacing one set of jokers with another, so the whole freedom agenda doesn't mean much to me.

 

Here's the situation. The rebels have bottled him up, but may lack the power to finish the job. A report on just how seriously the rebels are out-gunned. http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-voices/?blogpost=146

 

If they lose the initiative, there is a very distinct probability of Qadaffi gaining it, and with that equipment he could roll them all the way back to Benghazi. Qadaffi has shown the capacity for extremely vicious behavior, and may indeed be quite insane. Nobody can listen to him for 10 minutes and think the guy is dealing with a full deck, anyway.

 

It could be very cheap to give those rebels what they need to finish the job before Qadaffi gets his shit together. It could be either a long, bloody civil war or a slaughter of significant proportions if that aid does not arrive in a timely fashion. Both the latter will be expensive fixes, if there will even be someone who would seriously consider paying them.

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Before we go Rushing into conflict, I suggest looking at this:

 

That was fucking BRILLIANT! Thanks sol. :lol:

The part about Mr. Clean had me on the floor. Funny stuff.

Pure fucking gold that one, especially after a shitty day.

 

How did you find that?

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Before we go Rushing into conflict, I suggest looking at this:

 

That was fucking BRILLIANT! Thanks sol. :lol:

The part about Mr. Clean had me on the floor. Funny stuff.

Pure fucking gold that one, especially after a shitty day.

 

How did you find that?

An old buddy had the link on his FB page. I don't know whether to be amused or disturbed. I guess a bit of both.

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Jeff

 

Straight question for you.

 

Do you have an exit strategy?

An exit strategy implies there is an "entrance" strategy. I advocate nothing of the sort. What I di think we need to do is to airdrop in supplies to the rebels - guns, food, ammo, water, etc. A no-fly zone might be the next step. Sec GTes rightfully said that would constitute an act of war, because you would 1st have to go in and take down his air defenses. I'm ok with that. Normally in a civil war like this, I would say not to take sides. but since qadaffi has been proven to be hostile to the US, the west and is brutal to his own people - I think it's worth it.

 

Even more importantly, beyond the moral and economic (oil) justification..... I think there is a significant strategic move to be made here. I think the Arab world is approaching a crossroads in their history and they are looking for who are the good guys and who's not. The people are looking to see where the west comes out on this. And more importantly they're looking to see if we are only paying lip service to freedom and liberty or if we really believe. In the Arab street's eyes - they are specifically looking to see what the US does here. If we play this too cautious - we merely look like we are hedging our bets for whoever comes out on top. If we help the rebels, we tell the Arab world once and for all that we really do value freedom and liberty. In a sense, this might be the most significant anti-terrorism move we could ever make. And its especially so in Libya where we won't be seen as intervening for strictly oil or geography. Strategically, Libya is not all that important - save for the impression we could show the Arab street that we really are not the bad guys anymore.

And when he's gone and it reverts back to tribal issues, which it will. Which tribe/s get the support? and which don't?

 

Its the one thing that most of the dictators could do and that was stop the tribes fighting.

 

About 90% of revolutions result in replacing one set of jokers with another, so the whole freedom agenda doesn't mean much to me.

 

Here's the situation. The rebels have bottled him up, but may lack the power to finish the job. A report on just how seriously the rebels are out-gunned. http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-voices/?blogpost=146

 

If they lose the initiative, there is a very distinct probability of Qadaffi gaining it, and with that equipment he could roll them all the way back to Benghazi. Qadaffi has shown the capacity for extremely vicious behavior, and may indeed be quite insane. Nobody can listen to him for 10 minutes and think the guy is dealing with a full deck, anyway.

 

It could be very cheap to give those rebels what they need to finish the job before Qadaffi gets his shit together. It could be either a long, bloody civil war or a slaughter of significant proportions if that aid does not arrive in a timely fashion. Both the latter will be expensive fixes, if there will even be someone who would seriously consider paying them.

Agreed, (see bold) better to let them them sort it internally. The west had a place in the start of all this and we will never be thanked for going back there.

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Jeff

 

Straight question for you.

 

Do you have an exit strategy?

An exit strategy implies there is an "entrance" strategy. I advocate nothing of the sort. What I di think we need to do is to airdrop in supplies to the rebels - guns, food, ammo, water, etc. A no-fly zone might be the next step. Sec GTes rightfully said that would constitute an act of war, because you would 1st have to go in and take down his air defenses. I'm ok with that. Normally in a civil war like this, I would say not to take sides. but since qadaffi has been proven to be hostile to the US, the west and is brutal to his own people - I think it's worth it.

 

Even more importantly, beyond the moral and economic (oil) justification..... I think there is a significant strategic move to be made here. I think the Arab world is approaching a crossroads in their history and they are looking for who are the good guys and who's not. The people are looking to see where the west comes out on this. And more importantly they're looking to see if we are only paying lip service to freedom and liberty or if we really believe. In the Arab street's eyes - they are specifically looking to see what the US does here. If we play this too cautious - we merely look like we are hedging our bets for whoever comes out on top. If we help the rebels, we tell the Arab world once and for all that we really do value freedom and liberty. In a sense, this might be the most significant anti-terrorism move we could ever make. And its especially so in Libya where we won't be seen as intervening for strictly oil or geography. Strategically, Libya is not all that important - save for the impression we could show the Arab street that we really are not the bad guys anymore.

And when he's gone and it reverts back to tribal issues, which it will. Which tribe/s get the support? and which don't?

 

Its the one thing that most of the dictators could do and that was stop the tribes fighting.

 

About 90% of revolutions result in replacing one set of jokers with another, so the whole freedom agenda doesn't mean much to me.

 

Here's the situation. The rebels have bottled him up, but may lack the power to finish the job. A report on just how seriously the rebels are out-gunned. http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-voices/?blogpost=146

 

If they lose the initiative, there is a very distinct probability of Qadaffi gaining it, and with that equipment he could roll them all the way back to Benghazi. Qadaffi has shown the capacity for extremely vicious behavior, and may indeed be quite insane. Nobody can listen to him for 10 minutes and think the guy is dealing with a full deck, anyway.

 

It could be very cheap to give those rebels what they need to finish the job before Qadaffi gets his shit together. It could be either a long, bloody civil war or a slaughter of significant proportions if that aid does not arrive in a timely fashion. Both the latter will be expensive fixes, if there will even be someone who would seriously consider paying them.

Agreed, (see bold) better to let them them sort it internally. The west had a place in the start of all this and we will never be thanked for going back there.

 

 

I don't care about who gets thanked either.

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Thats my point. they don't want us there. It doesn't matter who we help now, in 5-10 years they will turn back on each other in an ethnic/tribal cleansing policy. This is what happens and has happened for a very long time, we cannot keep pushing our views of what is right or wrong on people that at times have a very different mindset.

 

Flame away

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Thats my point. they don't want us there. It doesn't matter who we help now, in 5-10 years they will turn back on each other in an ethnic/tribal cleansing policy. This is what happens and has happened for a very long time, we cannot keep pushing our views of what is right or wrong on people that at times have a very different mindset.

 

Flame away

You sound a bit like the guy who said this: "I just don’t think it’s the role of the United States to walk into a country and say, we do it this way, so should you."

 

I agree with both of you.

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I agree with both of you.

 

I agree with SolJohnson for agreeing with MadJohnson and MarkJohnson.

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Thats my point. they don't want us there. It doesn't matter who we help now, in 5-10 years they will turn back on each other in an ethnic/tribal cleansing policy. This is what happens and has happened for a very long time, we cannot keep pushing our views of what is right or wrong on people that at times have a very different mindset.

 

Flame away

 

You are partially right about them not wanting us "in there". They don't want our troops, but they do need fuel, ammo, and air cover. The calls for the air cover have become clear from the ones in the front line too.

 

The claim of what they will do being ethnic cleansing? Not every place is Iraq. In fact all these situations must be looked at as individual, unique situations. Case in point, Egypt's and Tunisia's uprisings bear little resemblance to Libya's. The odds of that kind of chaos coming into being are quite likely in the scenario of a decade long civil war as well.

 

 

This is a not a protest anymore, it is a war. I agree with WT Sherman.

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I agree with both of you.

 

I agree with SolJohnson for agreeing with MadJohnson and MarkJohnson.

 

JeffJohnson is right!

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

Well that's all well and good, but are you in any way trying to suggest that democRATS don't suck?

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

Well that's all well and good, but are you in any way trying to suggest that democRATS don't suck?

 

Of course he is.

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

Well that's all well and good, but are you in any way trying to suggest that democRATS don't suck?

 

With France showing more balls than America?

 

There is no doubt that America chose the fish for dinner now.

 

Surely, you jest..

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

 

13th Demi's??? Not familiar with them. SOF, I assume? Anyway, I can't imagine france or any country entering into a ground war - although, it wouldn't be much of a fair fight. I would expect the FAF to just do airstrikes if it came to that. An air campaign could easily roll back the gov't forces into a little ball within days. Might not dislodge them from Tripoli with Air alone, but it would make them ineffectice as an offensive force.

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

 

13th Demi's??? Not familiar with them. SOF, I assume? Anyway, I can't imagine france or any country entering into a ground war - although, it wouldn't be much of a fair fight. I would expect the FAF to just do airstrikes if it came to that. An air campaign could easily roll back the gov't forces into a little ball within days. Might not dislodge them from Tripoli with Air alone, but it would make them ineffectice as an offensive force.

 

From the nut job's reaction so far, I'd be concerned that citizens would be rounded up as human shields rather quickly and any collateral damage - regardless of who actually caused it, would be blamed on the foreign power. Remember this?

 

BabyMilkPlant.jpg

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

 

13th Demi's??? Not familiar with them. SOF, I assume? Anyway, I can't imagine france or any country entering into a ground war - although, it wouldn't be much of a fair fight. I would expect the FAF to just do airstrikes if it came to that. An air campaign could easily roll back the gov't forces into a little ball within days. Might not dislodge them from Tripoli with Air alone, but it would make them ineffectice as an offensive force.

 

FFL.

 

Sarkozy has pretty much double-dog dared Qadaffi to declare war on France with this, and unlike the Brits, they have the ability to quickly field a mechanized brigade in Africa, but I do not think it will come to that, unless Qadaffi is nuts. On second thought...

 

They have opened the door for various entities to supply the rebels through France. Somebody had to step up, and in a lot of ways it was better France than us anyway.

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

 

13th Demi's??? Not familiar with them. SOF, I assume? Anyway, I can't imagine france or any country entering into a ground war - although, it wouldn't be much of a fair fight. I would expect the FAF to just do airstrikes if it came to that. An air campaign could easily roll back the gov't forces into a little ball within days. Might not dislodge them from Tripoli with Air alone, but it would make them ineffectice as an offensive force.

 

FFL.

 

Sarkozy has pretty much double-dog dared Qadaffi to declare war on France with this, and unlike the Brits, they have the ability to quickly field a mechanized brigade in Africa, but I do not think it will come to that, unless Qadaffi is nuts. On second thought...

 

They have opened the door for various entities to supply the rebels through France. Somebody had to step up, and in a lot of ways it was better France than us anyway.

 

Things are moving fast right now - the government forces are already well past Sirte. I'd guess in a few days it will be too late for an intervention.

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Cant we just kill everyone and take the oil.

Join up with the Simple Jack La-Z-Boy Warrior Division ® and we'll get you on the next plane across the pond. With all the oil there, the whole thing will pay for itself, right?

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Cant we just kill everyone and take the oil.

Join up with the Simple Jack La-Z-Boy Warrior Division ® and we'll get you on the next plane across the pond. With all the oil there, the whole thing will pay for itself, right?

Spoils of war my man , just use the spoils of war. It just like taking land form the Indians.

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Cant we just kill everyone and take the oil.

Join up with the Simple Jack La-Z-Boy Warrior Division ® and we'll get you on the next plane across the pond. With all the oil there, the whole thing will pay for itself, right?

Spoils of war my man , just use the spoils of war. It just like taking land form the Indians.

Yup. Iraq paid for itself very well.

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Maybe in the nick of time. Qadaffi is routing the rebels in Zawiya and on the coast road. Backed the rebels up about 70 miles there in one day. That battle is sort of like the WW2 Africa campaign, it's all about that road.

 

The specter of France entering the war may encourage the Qadaffis to dig in somewhere around Sirte instead of extending themselves all the way to Benghazi in a head-long rush. He has to know that if the 13th Demi's, based in Dijibouti, enter the fray....

 

13th Demi's??? Not familiar with them. SOF, I assume? Anyway, I can't imagine france or any country entering into a ground war - although, it wouldn't be much of a fair fight. I would expect the FAF to just do airstrikes if it came to that. An air campaign could easily roll back the gov't forces into a little ball within days. Might not dislodge them from Tripoli with Air alone, but it would make them ineffectice as an offensive force.

 

FFL.

 

Sarkozy has pretty much double-dog dared Qadaffi to declare war on France with this, and unlike the Brits, they have the ability to quickly field a mechanized brigade in Africa, but I do not think it will come to that, unless Qadaffi is nuts. On second thought...

 

They have opened the door for various entities to supply the rebels through France. Somebody had to step up, and in a lot of ways it was better France than us anyway.

 

Things are moving fast right now - the government forces are already well past Sirte. I'd guess in a few days it will be too late for an intervention.

 

Maybe. The other thought is of course that the Qadaffi's will decide they must take Benghazi before the EU and NATO can decide what they want to do. Serious time pressure here.

 

Germany and the US blocked the call from France and Britain to establish a no-fly zone by NATO today.

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Things are moving fast right now - the government forces are already well past Sirte. I'd guess in a few days it will be too late for an intervention.

 

Maybe. The other thought is of course that the Qadaffi's will decide they must take Benghazi before the EU and NATO can decide what they want to do. Serious time pressure here.

 

Germany and the US blocked the call from France and Britain to establish a no-fly zone by NATO today.

 

WHAAAAAT??? I hadn't heard that. Really, that's very surprising.

 

edit: I don't mind a bit if the euros do some of their own heavy lifting for a change. Let France at them, good on 'em.

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Things are moving fast right now - the government forces are already well past Sirte. I'd guess in a few days it will be too late for an intervention.

 

Maybe. The other thought is of course that the Qadaffi's will decide they must take Benghazi before the EU and NATO can decide what they want to do. Serious time pressure here.

 

Germany and the US blocked the call from France and Britain to establish a no-fly zone by NATO today.

 

WHAAAAAT??? I hadn't heard that. Really, that's very surprising.

 

edit: I don't mind a bit if the euros do some of their own heavy lifting for a change. Let France at them, good on 'em.

 

Yup.

 

Effects how the tab for this party is going to be divi'ed up. If it's officially a NATO shindig, the club membership is the hook for assets they can bring to bear, with obligations to make all that available.

 

It would have put the US on the hook for the lions share of a no-fly zone. Can be a very long, boring, yet very expensive party.

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Somebody dragged up a video of Reagan in another thread, and it brought back a memory.

 

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Ronald-Reagans-1992-Address-at-Oxford-University/10737419324-1/

 

GHW Bush got Reagan to do the pep speech for our invasion of Somalia for him at Oxford. You can skip to the 20:00 mark of this speech for that part. They played it on the Juneau the night we got in the boats.

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Arab League calls for no-fly, but really wants whatever it takes to prevent a slaughter, and send Qadaffi into retirement.

 

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Well - the Arab league can get off their ass and deploy some of that fancy military hardware they bought from us over the last 30 years - rolling in petrol dollars.

 

Or - if they just want mercenaries - they can cut Uncle Sam a check the $20-30B it's gonna cost, including the payments to the widows and orphans that will be needed. Oh- and some public statements about how their governments are so fucking futile that they have to bring in the adults everytime someone in the mid-east sneezes.

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Well - the Arab league can get off their ass and deploy some of that fancy military hardware they bought from us over the last 30 years - rolling in petrol dollars.

 

Or - if they just want mercenaries - they can cut Uncle Sam a check the $20-30B it's gonna cost, including the payments to the widows and orphans that will be needed. Oh- and some public statements about how their governments are so fucking futile that they have to bring in the adults everytime someone in the mid-east sneezes.

 

The Arab League deal is really no big surprise. Qadhaffi tried to have Abdullah assassinated a year or two ago, or so the Saudi's believe.

 

They funded the piss out of the Kuwait war, so it's not out of the question.

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Well - the Arab league can get off their ass and deploy some of that fancy military hardware they bought from us over the last 30 years - rolling in petrol dollars.

 

Or - if they just want mercenaries - they can cut Uncle Sam a check the $20-30B it's gonna cost, including the payments to the widows and orphans that will be needed. Oh- and some public statements about how their governments are so fucking futile that they have to bring in the adults everytime someone in the mid-east sneezes.

 

The Arab League deal is really no big surprise. Qadhaffi tried to have Abdullah assassinated a year or two ago, or so the Saudi's believe.

 

They funded the piss out of the Kuwait war, so it's not out of the question.

I agree with mitch, if the Arab league wants something done they can do it themselves or pay for it. Europe also can do something instead of waiting for America once again to hold their hands. Libyan oil impacts Europe more than anywhere else, they can damn well handle this on their own or open their wallets and start sharing the burden.

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Well - the Arab league can get off their ass and deploy some of that fancy military hardware they bought from us over the last 30 years - rolling in petrol dollars.

 

Or - if they just want mercenaries - they can cut Uncle Sam a check the $20-30B it's gonna cost, including the payments to the widows and orphans that will be needed. Oh- and some public statements about how their governments are so fucking futile that they have to bring in the adults everytime someone in the mid-east sneezes.

 

The Arab League deal is really no big surprise. Qadhaffi tried to have Abdullah assassinated a year or two ago, or so the Saudi's believe.

 

They funded the piss out of the Kuwait war, so it's not out of the question.

I agree with mitch, if the Arab league wants something done they can do it themselves or pay for it. Europe also can do something instead of waiting for America once again to hold their hands. Libyan oil impacts Europe more than anywhere else, they can damn well handle this on their own or open their wallets and start sharing the burden.

Yep, should be able to cobble a fair means of eliminating the Libyan force and then maintaining air superiority out of this lot.

 

Algeria - 104 jet combat aircraft

bahrain - 33 F16, 16 F5

Morocco - 40 Mirage, 37 F5, 3 F16 (24 on order)

Saudi - 200+ F15, 111 toronados, 110 F5, 24 Typhoon, 5 AWACS, 8 KE-3 tankers

UAE - 79 F16, 68 Mirage

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