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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
kimbottles

Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

13,176 posts in this topic

"Can't wait to wrestle the tiller out of its cold hands"

 

Kim - whatever you do, don't name that thing HAL !!!

 

"I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that..."

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Looks good, Kim!

+1

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"Continental United States" or CONUS is the term you want.

 

Lower 48 is the reference I've always heard. Strictly speaking Alaska is part of the Continental U.S.

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"Continental United States" or CONUS is the term you want.

 

Lower 48 is the reference I've always heard. Strictly speaking Alaska is part of the Continental U.S.

 

Strictly speaking, yes. In the military, where the term CONUS is used most often, Alaska is not part of CONUS.

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are you planing on rudder stops?

Why? The total travel of the pilot is only about 3.5" either side of center (the pictures above show max travel in both directions and centered) and the tiller/rudder currently will rotate through all 360 degrees without a problem.

 

That allows us to back up at flank speed with the balance rudder pointed in the proper direction and also allows us to point the rudder in the proper direction when anchoring by the stern.

 

So I don't see the value of adding rudder stops, maybe I am missing something?

 

Cheers!

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As long as the electronics can control the maximum amount of ram movement, there is no need.

 

I once screwed the ram out of a raymarine tillerpilot in a following sea with an outboard rudder, not nice in the middle of the night.

 

Should have had rudder stops there.

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I'm with Bob on this one... While I understand the utility of having an autopilot, If I were driving that boat, I'd never want to let go of the tiller.

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Kir:

When we race, if I don't think I'm getting the most out of the boat I will gladly hand it over to anyone who thinks they can do better. I want to win.

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Every time I see details of Kim's boat I say "My God that's beautiful! The lines! The ergonomics! What is that boat??!!"

 

And then I say "oh yeah, it's FRANCIS. Figures."

 

Thank you for sharing her with us! really a visual treat.

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I'm with Bob on this one... While I understand the utility of having an autopilot, If I were driving that boat, I'd never want to let go of the tiller.

I suspect we will use the pilot for deliveries where is no wind and we have to motor.

Otherwise I like to sail and that includes holding onto the tiller.

 

But we will have to at least try the pilot while sailing sometime. Who knows, maybe I will get into single handed racing.

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I have no illusions of being a great racing helmsman, but by all accounts, FL is a dream to sail... I hope to find out someday, and when it comes time to relinquish the stick, I'll be sad; even more so if giving it up to a machine.

 

I debate getting a tillerpilot for my little 4ksb, because sometimes I have to do stuff out of reach of the cockpit. While it's wonderfully balanced under sail, when motoring, it does take some attention.

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We are all looking fwd to this pilot and your evaluation, thanks so much for sharing.

Would it be out of line to ask for that fwd bottom corner of s.s. tiller head to get knocked off. I'm sure the the guy that built it would like it too.

What an ass I am.

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Yeah, I have noticed it too, just another thing on an endless list of enhancements that may be addressed someday. Kind of down a ways on the priority list.

(I am trying to remember where those SS tiller cheeks came from, a CSR subcontractor no doubt.)

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Now I feel bad. I just built a tiller head and rudder cheeks. This stuff is is not easy but sure looks it when done right.

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An observation on the use of a tiller pilot or any other self steering device: It is easy (for me) to get distracted for a short while and find that I am on a collision course with, and embarrassingly close to another yacht, even if it's the only other boat for miles. With the tiller in hand, I automatically look around and subonsciously make little adjustments to avoid those situations. The steering device just doesn't care.

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An observation on the use of a tiller pilot or any other self steering device: It is easy (for me) to get distracted for a short while and find that I am on a collision course with, and embarrassingly close to another yacht, even if it's the only other boat for miles. With the tiller in hand, I automatically look around and subonsciously make little adjustments to avoid those situations. The steering device just doesn't care.

Yes! Using a pilot does not relieve the need to keep a proper lookout!

 

I suspect many collisions at sea are done under the control of a autopilot, not a human. Maybe the majority of them?

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Kim,

I think you are right. Even with a proper watch in bad visibility conditions, the ability to throw the helm over in a fraction of a second, and hence avoid something that suddenly appears out of the murk is lost with an autopilot.

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Kim,

I think you are right. Even with a proper watch in bad visibility conditions, the ability to throw the helm over in a fraction of a second, and hence avoid something that suddenly appears out of the murk is lost with an autopilot.

You do the best you can. Delivering the boat for eight hours last weekend alone in the dark and rain, the AP gave me the freedom to leave the helm to heat some food, check the AIS for traffic and add dry clothes. With all the debris we have in Puget Sound, it is a gamble whether we hit something or not. I have sailed thousands of miles alone with tillerpilots and feel they are a great tool on a boat. My new Pelagic actuator arrives today! Yahoo! I should be using it tomorrow.

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GW,

I am in no way advocating against autopilots. In many situations they are very convenient, if not a necessity. I'm just observing how quickly and easily it can all go wrong with "Otto" on the helm.

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Of course, there's the unfortunate case of the Agean, where the autopilot ran the boat into an island with the watch asleep.

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Happened here too with the Queen of the North. The rumour was that the OOD was getting his flagstaff varnished while Otto steered into an island. Ship was lost along with two passengers. OOD got some years in prison.

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I know there was much debate on various Hookah Dive Compressors in another thread. The "cheap" versions where hammered pretty hard by some.

 

Well I bought one of those cheap ones (Hookamax) and have found it to be perfect for my needs (cleaning FRANCIS' bottom and keeping the critters out of the Saildrive water intakes and off the MaxiProp feathering prop. We have very clean water here in Blakely Harbor, so stuff grows quickly.)

 

Given that I don't go below the bottom of FRANCIS' keel (10 feet) I am not at all worried about the safety aspect. (That's the starboard battery bank, there is an identical one on the port side.)

 

It sure beats the tank and BC I used to use!

post-8115-0-86306400-1456951539_thumb.jpeg

post-8115-0-72063200-1456951549_thumb.jpeg

post-8115-0-85053900-1456951564_thumb.jpeg

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Please, when you've got the time - get a pair of 4" snap-on flush cut diagonal pliers (or exact equivalent) and trim off all those wire tie ends. Ruins what looks like reasonably tidy runs seeing all the ties sticking out. DON'T use regular dykes, they leave a razor sharp slanted cut that just waits for you to pass your skin close by in the future so they can inflict a thousand cuts.

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Please, when you've got the time - get a pair of 4" snap-on flush cut diagonal pliers (or exact equivalent) and trim off all those wire tie ends. Ruins what looks like reasonably tidy runs seeing all the ties sticking out. DON'T use regular dykes, they leave a razor sharp slanted cut that just waits for you to pass your skin close by in the future so they can inflict a thousand cuts.

I was going to wait until I am done running stuff before I do that kind of finishing. Still playing around with the wiring and placement of the tiller pilot controls. And then SWMBO says I need to add a hot water tank, sheesh! I was trying to avoid that complexity. Guess I will do one of those little 6 gallon affairs that runs off engine cooling system.

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Borrow mine Kim, those ties when snipped are vicious.

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Borrow mine Kim, those ties when snipped are vicious.

Hey Hobot, when is that Three Buoy Fiasco race this year, you know, the one we did a while back?

We should get the band back together and do it again this year. I haven't seen Boomer for some time now.

 

It would be fun.

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I have one of these, it's one of my favorite tools:

 

EE591E8C6.jpg

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Kir:

Come on up. Kim will find a place for you on the crew. I'll put you up at the shack. You'll have a ball.

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Borrow mine Kim, those ties when snipped are vicious.

Hey Hobot, when is that Three Buoy Fiasco race this year, you know, the one we did a while back?

We should get the band back together and do it again this year. I haven't seen Boomer for some time now.

 

It would be fun.

 

 

Can we bring the small cannon along in case one of them dadgum Olson 911 interlopers shows up again?

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Kir:

Come on up. Kim will find a place for you on the crew. I'll put you up at the shack. You'll have a ball.

 

I will DEFINITELY take you up on that someday. I'll even bring my harmonica for a jam session.

 

Not sure what TSA will think of the cannon, though....

 

canonphotosmall_zps3b34302f.jpg

 

it pops a 2 Liter soda bottle with CO2 pressure, nice little boom.

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Kir:

Come on up. Kim will find a place for you on the crew. I'll put you up at the shack. You'll have a ball.

 

I will DEFINITELY take you up on that someday. I'll even bring my harmonica for a jam session.

 

Not sure what TSA will think of the cannon, though....

 

canonphotosmall_zps3b34302f.jpg

 

it pops a 2 Liter soda bottle with CO2 pressure, nice little boom.

No worries Kir, I own four fully functional cannons........

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Happy wife, happy life Kim.

+1

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Perhaps a new thread is needed: "Cannon Geekdom Anarchy"

Should 'cannon' coupled with 'anarchy' be encouraged? Just askin? :unsure:

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Well, they're loud and full of great vengeance and furious anger. Should work fine here.

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Please, when you've got the time - get a pair of 4" snap-on flush cut diagonal pliers (or exact equivalent) and trim off all those wire tie ends. Ruins what looks like reasonably tidy runs seeing all the ties sticking out. DON'T use regular dykes, they leave a razor sharp slanted cut that just waits for you to pass your skin close by in the future so they can inflict a thousand cuts.

I was going to wait until I am done running stuff before I do that kind of finishing. Still playing around with the wiring and placement of the tiller pilot controls. And then SWMBO says I need to add a hot water tank, sheesh! I was trying to avoid that complexity. Guess I will do one of those little 6 gallon affairs that runs off engine cooling system.

 

 

I've been using these releasable cable ties in locations where I know I'm going to be changing wiring over and over. They can be released and slacked off to slip additional wires through and re-tightened or removed completely and still then reused.

 

r1.gif

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Please, when you've got the time - get a pair of 4" snap-on flush cut diagonal pliers (or exact equivalent) and trim off all those wire tie ends. Ruins what looks like reasonably tidy runs seeing all the ties sticking out. DON'T use regular dykes, they leave a razor sharp slanted cut that just waits for you to pass your skin close by in the future so they can inflict a thousand cuts.

I was going to wait until I am done running stuff before I do that kind of finishing. Still playing around with the wiring and placement of the tiller pilot controls. And then SWMBO says I need to add a hot water tank, sheesh! I was trying to avoid that complexity. Guess I will do one of those little 6 gallon affairs that runs off engine cooling system.

 

 

I've been using these releasable cable ties in locations where I know I'm going to be changing wiring over and over. They can be released and slacked off to slip additional wires through and re-tightened or removed completely and still then reused.

 

r1.gif

 

What a great idea.

 

Another advance could be the addition of a couple of loops (as in the little loops added to a leather watch strap) to tuck the unused loose end under. I'd pay a premium for that.

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I use an icepick to make my zip cords releasable. Takes a little longer, but I can use it with existing inventory.

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I use an icepick to make my zip cords releasable. Takes a little longer, but I can use it with existing inventory.

Hey Ish! Thanks, I will give that a try. (I never thought of that, I just threw the old one away given zips are cheap. But being a good Highland Scot I always welcome ways to be cheap.......er, I mean frugal.)

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Economical. ;)

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I have used all manner of things to release zip-ties. And I have some releasable ones. I have cut off ones that are around big things and used them on little things... Zip ties are awesome!

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Normal zip ties don't bite as well for the 2nd, 3rd and beyond time.

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Instead of cutting the tail off leaving a sharp edge, use linesman pliers and twist the end until the end separates.

 

Very smooth...

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Penny wise, pound foolish.

 

as usual, you know nothing

 

for temporary placement of electrical lines etc. velcro tape is about perfect

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And as usual he's ass backwards - Velcro costs a lot more than zip ties.

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I had built a couple of 'stitch and glue' tunnel hull dinghies for myself and a couple of neighbors in the anchorage and used soft copper wire through marching holes along the panel edges to slowly tighten up the seams. An inside putty fillet and glass tape before pulling the wires from the outside made a strong joint without having to fit a chine log. Radius the outside of the chine over and a couple more glass tapes and your done.

 

I was at a party and telling an older gentleman about my boats and mentioned that a friend had built one from my design but used nylon plastic zip ties instead of the wire with even better results. He asked me if I had ever patented any of my crazy ideas and I said no but had often thought of doing so. He then told me that it only takes one idea to act upon and go through the process and you wouldn't have to work another day in your life.

 

I wasn't sure just where he was headed with that but then he told me he had invented (and successfully patented!) the zip tie... His big moral to his story was that I should keep my mouth shut whenever I was doing something that might be new or novel.

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Well in the spirit of full disclosure I have to report FRANCIS finished DFL in the Blakely Rocks Race yesterday. That's right DFL.

 

It was not FRANCIS's or Bob's design that was at fault, and I really don't think it was the crew's fault. It appears we had an interesting convergence of bad luck (hey! It easier to blame luck that blame us!)

 

We had a decent start, not a great start, but decent, then things deteriorated. We just could not get the boat to move like she always does, she felt sluggish and dead. I gave the helm to Bob and he did slightly better than I was doing, but still she just did not seem to get out of her own way. And all of this was in a slowly dying breeze.

 

So we lagged all the way to the back of the fleet and rounded the Rocks DFL (we were in the 7th start, but that is no excuse for the fleet's scratch boat bringing up the rear of the fleet!)

 

After rounding last we headed north baffled at our lack of speed. (I had cleaned the bottom with my dive hookah system last week, so we knew we had a clean rudder, keel, bulb and hull.) Then the wind died and we sat still for a short while ( we used that time for lunch.)

 

When what little wind did return we all of a sudden got her going again much better than before but with less breeze. We had her sailing faster with 3-5 knots of breeze than we did in 6-8 knots of breeze? How can that be?

 

We did finally make it up to the shortened finish line a longgggg time after almost everyone else (all of whom we owed time!)

 

DFL! That will humble us up a bit! (But we did have a very nice light air sail back north up to the finish. And I got to do foredeck which is a rare treaty for me.)

 

Kelp on the keel or rudder that fell off when we stopped dead in the water? Who knows? It sure was weird.

 

There was one very nice gesture that came from a Catalina 38 named IMAGE that ducked our stern even though they were on starboard when we were just a few hundred meters from the finish, if they had forced us to tack we would have taken even longer to finally get to the line. I thought that was a very nice display of unrequired sportsmanship on their part. Bravo to IMAGE and thank you!

 

(My very experienced navigator/tactician WHL suggested they let us by as we were on the proper course to the line and they didn't want to lee bow us so they just tacked on the other side of us and followed us across. Nice people no matter the reason and we appreciated it!)

 

Ok, we have our tails between our legs, but there is always next week!

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Well in the spirit of full disclosure I have to report FRANCIS finished DFL in the Blakely Rocks Race yesterday. That's right DFL.

 

It was not FRANCIS's or Bob's design that was at fault, and I really don't think it was the crew's fault. It appears we had an interesting convergence of bad luck (hey! It easier to blame luck that blame us!)

 

We had a decent start, not a great start, but decent, then things deteriorated. We just could not get the boat to move like she always does, she felt sluggish and dead. I gave the helm to Bob and he did slightly better than I was doing, but still she just did not seem to get out of her own way. And all of this was in a slowly dying breeze.

 

So we lagged all the way to the back of the fleet and rounded the Rocks DFL (we were in the 7th start, but that is no excuse for the fleet's scratch boat bringing up the rear of the fleet!)

 

After rounding last we headed north baffled at our lack of speed. (I had cleaned the bottom with my dive hookah system last week, so we knew we had a clean rudder, keel, bulb and hull.) Then the wind died and we sat still for a short while ( we used that time for lunch.)

 

When what little wind did return we all of a sudden got her going again much better than before but with less breeze. We had her sailing faster with 3-5 knots of breeze than we did in 6-8 knots of breeze? How can that be?

 

We did finally make it up to the shortened finish line a longgggg time after almost everyone else (all of whom we owed time!)

 

DFL! That will humble us up a bit! (But we did have a very nice light air sail back north up to the finish. And I got to do foredeck which is a rare treaty for me.)

 

Kelp on the keel or rudder that fell off when we stopped dead in the water? Who knows? It sure was weird.

 

There was one very nice gesture that came from a Catalina 38 named IMAGE that ducked our stern even though they were on starboard when we were just a few hundred meters from the finish, if they had forced us to tack we would have taken even longer to finally get to the line. I thought that was a very nice display of unrequired sportsmanship on their part. Bravo to IMAGE and thank you!

 

(My very experienced navigator/tactician WHL suggested they let us by as we were on the proper course to the line and they didn't want to lee bow us so they just tacked on the other side of us and followed us across. Nice people no matter the reason and we appreciated it!)

 

Ok, we have our tails between our legs, but there is always next week!

Frustrating.

 

In contrast, race committee boat duty at RPNYC on Saturday - blowing 44 knots NNW, gusting 50+ occasionally. Just recovering laid mark 5 off Somes Island was a bit of a mission. But it's all on the water and it's all good.

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When I read the 6th paragraph I thought "kelp".

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When I read the 6th paragraph I thought "kelp".

Maybe? I guess we will never know for sure, but we get to try again next Saturday.

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You can be almost certain it was kelp or eelgrass-the description fits perfectly. That close reach to Blakely Rock was a dream come true for the boats with a lot of waterline relative to their rating. I think with clean foils you would have made it to the rock ahead of all the IRC boats. That's one of many good uses of a decent set of polars - if we can't hit ours even by 0.2kts I want to back down. Doing so is temporarily painful but so much better than spending hours being frustrated.

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Sounds like kelp to me too. When I raced my Cal 20 Kelp or Eel Grass would slow us down occasionally. Luckily my boat had a kelp window, a 3-4 inch diameter thick plexiglass disk in the hull near the leading edge of the keel, which allowed us to check for it. When we did get something on the keel or rudder we would back the boat down with the sails and get going again. Next time you haul out you might consider installing a kelp window for the keel and the rudder.

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On the boat I race on, we've developed the following method for clearing the keel:

 

The gizmo is a 'rope', about 30 feet long. It's heavy, made from chain or lead weights with a sheath; plus a batch of rubber water pump impellers every few feet to prevent scratching the hull.

It's dropped over the bow, with a person on each side. They keep it taut, and walk it back to the keel.

Then they each let out slack to let the weight make it drop down the keel, along with whatever weeds there are.

Then they walk to the stern and recover it out the back. One guy can let go of his end.

If we're not moving fast, they can try to pull it up aft of the keel and do the same cleaning of the rudder. That's a low percentage play.

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You can be almost certain it was kelp or eelgrass-the description fits perfectly. That close reach to Blakely Rock was a dream come true for the boats with a lot of waterline relative to their rating. I think with clean foils you would have made it to the rock ahead of all the IRC boats. That's one of many good uses of a decent set of polars - if we can't hit ours even by 0.2kts I want to back down. Doing so is temporarily painful but so much better than spending hours being frustrated.

Good advice, we should have followed it. But it did not dawn on us that we might have been dragging kelp until she started to sail better after lunch........

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Sounds like kelp to me too. When I raced my Cal 20 Kelp or Eel Grass would slow us down occasionally. Luckily my boat had a kelp window, a 3-4 inch diameter thick plexiglass disk in the hull near the leading edge of the keel, which allowed us to check for it. When we did get something on the keel or rudder we would back the boat down with the sails and get going again. Next time you haul out you might consider installing a kelp window for the keel and the rudder.

One of my crew (who is a very experienced sailor) has suggested a GoPro or water proof camera on a long stick. Might be better than cutting another couple holes in the hull.

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On the boat I race on, we've developed the following method for clearing the keel:

 

The gizmo is a 'rope', about 30 feet long. It's heavy, made from chain or lead weights with a sheath; plus a batch of rubber water pump impellers every few feet to prevent scratching the hull.

It's dropped over the bow, with a person on each side. They keep it taut, and walk it back to the keel.

Then they each let out slack to let the weight make it drop down the keel, along with whatever weeds there are.

Then they walk to the stern and recover it out the back. One guy can let go of his end.

If we're not moving fast, they can try to pull it up aft of the keel and do the same cleaning of the rudder. That's a low percentage play.

We actually discussed that kind of thing later in the day as we wondered if it had been kelp........

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Re-using ties is penny-wise, pound foolish.

 

Velcro makes my teeth itch. I haven't used it in years.

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Sounds like kelp to me too. When I raced my Cal 20 Kelp or Eel Grass would slow us down occasionally. Luckily my boat had a kelp window, a 3-4 inch diameter thick plexiglass disk in the hull near the leading edge of the keel, which allowed us to check for it. When we did get something on the keel or rudder we would back the boat down with the sails and get going again. Next time you haul out you might consider installing a kelp window for the keel and the rudder.

One of my crew (who is a very experienced sailor) has suggested a GoPro or water proof camera on a long stick. Might be better than cutting another couple holes in the hull.

Hmm, modern technology, makes sense, but jumping down below to get an eyes on look is quicker I think. Nice thick plexiglass sealed into the hull shouldn't be a problem if done properly.

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We can hold a waterproof camera underwater by hand from the open transom of the boat I'm on, anything wrapped around the keel or rudder shows up clearly looking straight forward.. Not so easy on your boat!

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Sounds like kelp to me too. When I raced my Cal 20 Kelp or Eel Grass would slow us down occasionally. Luckily my boat had a kelp window, a 3-4 inch diameter thick plexiglass disk in the hull near the leading edge of the keel, which allowed us to check for it. When we did get something on the keel or rudder we would back the boat down with the sails and get going again. Next time you haul out you might consider installing a kelp window for the keel and the rudder.

One of my crew (who is a very experienced sailor) has suggested a GoPro or water proof camera on a long stick. Might be better than cutting another couple holes in the hull.

Hmm, modern technology, makes sense, but jumping down below to get an eyes on look is quicker I think. Nice thick plexiglass sealed into the hull shouldn't be a problem if done properly.

 

We were kind of shocked to see you fall off the back of the fleet after the start.

 

We have those view ports for keel and rudder inspection and they are well worth the trouble. However, we saw only one small kelp ball and a some short eel grass bits. And nothing around the start. Or the island. So the speed thing is a mystery.

 

Just one caveat. I've never been a fan of those full batten mains in light, reachy conditions when you want twist and an open leach.

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I'll vote for the GoPro on a long stick idea.

 

Gee, I wonder if we could imagine any other uses for a GoPro.......

 

Steve

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I'll vote for the GoPro on a long stick idea.

Gee, I wonder if we could imagine any other uses for a GoPro.......

Steve

Yeah Steve, I thought of your set up and that day we tested the yachtsman when it got mentioned by one of our crew.

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A kelp cutter or kelp window is necessary for my peace of mind. Otherwise, I compulsively floss the keel until I'm convinced that I can feel an improvement

.

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Try holding anything on a stick in the water at speed >4 knots before going for the gopro. Lots of drag, and hard to aim.

We have dropped someone over the bow in light air to grab stuff off the rudder. Not the safest method, but effective and faster than dropping chute and losing apparent in light air

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Well in the spirit of full disclosure I have to report FRANCIS finished DFL in the Blakely Rocks Race yesterday. That's right DFL.

 

It was not FRANCIS's or Bob's design that was at fault, and I really don't think it was the crew's fault. It appears we had an interesting convergence of bad luck (hey! It easier to blame luck that blame us!)

 

We had a decent start, not a great start, but decent, then things deteriorated. We just could not get the boat to move like she always does, she felt sluggish and dead. I gave the helm to Bob and he did slightly better than I was doing, but still she just did not seem to get out of her own way. And all of this was in a slowly dying breeze.

 

So we lagged all the way to the back of the fleet and rounded the Rocks DFL (we were in the 7th start, but that is no excuse for the fleet's scratch boat bringing up the rear of the fleet!)

 

After rounding last we headed north baffled at our lack of speed. (I had cleaned the bottom with my dive hookah system last week, so we knew we had a clean rudder, keel, bulb and hull.) Then the wind died and we sat still for a short while ( we used that time for lunch.)

 

When what little wind did return we all of a sudden got her going again much better than before but with less breeze. We had her sailing faster with 3-5 knots of breeze than we did in 6-8 knots of breeze? How can that be?

 

We did finally make it up to the shortened finish line a longgggg time after almost everyone else (all of whom we owed time!)

 

DFL! That will humble us up a bit! (But we did have a very nice light air sail back north up to the finish. And I got to do foredeck which is a rare treaty for me.)

 

Kelp on the keel or rudder that fell off when we stopped dead in the water? Who knows? It sure was weird.

 

There was one very nice gesture that came from a Catalina 38 named IMAGE that ducked our stern even though they were on starboard when we were just a few hundred meters from the finish, if they had forced us to tack we would have taken even longer to finally get to the line. I thought that was a very nice display of unrequired sportsmanship on their part. Bravo to IMAGE and thank you!

 

(My very experienced navigator/tactician WHL suggested they let us by as we were on the proper course to the line and they didn't want to lee bow us so they just tacked on the other side of us and followed us across. Nice people no matter the reason and we appreciated it!)

 

Ok, we have our tails between our legs, but there is always next week!

 

I was wondering what happened! I was out on another boat in class 7 (J122E Joyride) and was hoping to be trying to chase you down.

 

FL also wasn't pointing as well as she normally does, even off of the start you were putting in more tacks than anyone else. At one point we thought you were heading back to Shilshole because you were pretty far down. I'm used to seeing FL out point anything nearby. This could also indicate something stuck on the keel and preventing it from getting any lift.

 

Hope to see you out there again soon.

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Put in a window. Now that you know how much effect stuff on the keel has, whenever you're slow someone will want to look at the foils. If you have to assemble & wave a camera pole around for multiple tries before you actually see the foil, that activity alone will slow the boat. A window allows one to check foils in minutes, without slowing the boat - and if the foils are clean, you know to look elsewhere for speed immediately.

Down here in SoCal where kelp is omnipresent, boats with a kelp cutter will slide the pole up/down on any suspicion of slow, without looking first, it's just faster & relieves the helm/tactician brains of one more thing to complain about.

There are lots of options in windows: placement, size, access. Then there are (?)scopes which only require a 1/8" ball valve thru hull to use, but are expensive & somewhat fragile.

 

(?) can't remember shit - these are ss rods with fiber optics inside & focus/magnify lens at end, about 16" long. Insert into thru hull, open valve, insert further & rotate to view foil. Different angles of view available.

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First thing I thought of when reading your write up was kelp. We drug a long piece all the way across the San Pedro channel to Catalina in one race. We were just slightly off the pace, and had already backed down once, so we didn't think it was kelp. Before setting the spinnaker at the west end for the run down the backside we decided to back down just to make sure, and there it was. The damage had already been done though.

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I was driving right after the start. I felt helpless in trying to find the groove. The boat has never felt like that before. I thought it was me. I tried driving by the numbers. I tried driving by the jib. I tried driving be feel but there was none. I just figured it was me having a bad day. It did not occur to me until after the race that it could have been kelp or one of those huge Puget Sound octopussies trying to mate with our shapely bulb. But now thinking back, had it just been me there would have been some moments of boat speed. I don't think I could have been bad all the time. Luck would have given me as few moments of speed. Still, my confidence is now a bit shaken and I would not be comfortable driving in those conditions again for a while. I'll watch and make witty comments.

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What about one of those sewer cameras? Just drop it off the bow and feed it back.

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This may be a ridiculous idea but here it is: would something like piano wire which would run between keel tip to bow alleviate the problem without hindrance to performance? The angle should be right to sloff off any kelp that comes in the way. I have no idea what kind of drag such a thing would create.

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Very honest of you all, and reassuring to know that experienced sailors don't always understand what the boat's doing!

I often feel that the boat's talking to me, but in a foreign language.

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This may be a ridiculous idea but here it is: would something like piano wire which would run between keel tip to bow alleviate the problem without hindrance to performance? The angle should be right to sloff off any kelp that comes in the way. I have no idea what kind of drag such a thing would create.

Huuuummmmmmmmmmmm.....

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We need to develop the star wars light saber, then mount one on the leading edge of the keel.

 

I can only imagine the problems you'd have with a 'T' bulb.

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This may be a ridiculous idea but here it is: would something like piano wire which would run between keel tip to bow alleviate the problem without hindrance to performance? The angle should be right to sloff off any kelp that comes in the way. I have no idea what kind of drag such a thing would create.

 

The kelp would slide down the wire and a kelp bulb would get jammed in the angle formed by the wire and the leading edge of the keel, and then backing down wouldn't help.

 

Just my guess.

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Now you have an autopilot Kim the boat probably thinks it is a cruiser.....

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This may be a ridiculous idea but here it is: would something like piano wire which would run between keel tip to bow alleviate the problem without hindrance to performance? The angle should be right to sloff off any kelp that comes in the way. I have no idea what kind of drag such a thing would create.

 

On KC-135's fitted with the old HF radio, we had a wire antenna that ran from fuselage to tail. Planes fitted with that burned an extra 108 lbs (about 14 gallons) an hour at "best range" airspeed (.72 mach +/-). If we were at max cruise airspeed (.90 Mach), the extra drag of the wire amounted to nearly 400lbs an hour (about 50 gallons.).

 

So, I think it is safe to infer that there would be some drag asociated with running a wire from bow to keel on a sailboat.

My guess is that at high speed, the piano wire would simply slice through the kelp, leaving kelp still available to accumulate on the keel.

At very low speed, the wire might actually accumulate more kelp than the keel alone.

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I have become very experienced at catching kelp, sailing in San Diego on a dinghy with deep vertical foils. If you hit the kelp close to one end, the long end has so much more drag that it pulls the short end around. If you are sailing fast enough, say over 12 kts, you can usually slice through it. There is one variety, however, that has the appearance and strength of a 1" leather belt. There is no slicing through that.

 

I suppose if you had the wire running from stem to bulb, any sliced-through kelp would not be oriented favorably to catch on the keel. As Tom noted, the drag of small diameter round objects is astonishingly large however. Perhaps the smallest possible nitronic rod with the airfoil shape?

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I dunno - if you've ever sailed a swing-keel Catalina 22 - with the control cable that runs from the back of the well to the aft tip of the board - and you exceeded about 7 knots, you know the DY-NA-MO Hum aspect of those boats - I can't imagine what a much longer version would do at greater speed.

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... I can't imagine what a much longer version would do at greater speed.

 

...At 510 knots (TAS), it settles down to a steady "High C" tone. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :D

 

gallery_75266_1131_367320.jpg

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A built in kelp cutter blade is the only reliable method. Otherwise flail about with sticks or lines over the bow.

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What sweep angle would a keel /rudder need to have to reliably shed kelp?

 

gallery_75266_1131_4131.jpg

I think a Chance 30/30 would be a good boat for kelp areas - although the rudder may still be a problem.

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Now that I have had some time to think (I rode the ferry over to Fisheries Supply to buy more hangers and light asymmetrical sheets this morning so had an hour total to ponder all of this) I remember that while reaching back and forth along the line waiting for our start I felt a slight chatter of the rudder when we exceeded 7 or so knots.

 

I was listening to WHL's instructions for which end was favored and what course he wanted us to take towards the rocks so I failed to realize that I only have felt that in the past from prop wash while motoring, never while sailing. I think there was something on the rudder.

 

FRANCIS is so long and has so much space between the fin keel and the spade rudder that when we make sharp turns the rudder carves through water that was not necessarily carved first by the keel. I bet we picked something up on the rudder during one of those sharp turns.

 

I always learn something every time I go sailing. This time was no exception.

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Yes indeed Kim, there's always something good to be taken from every sail.

 

Joe mentioned backing down, something you don't see to often anymore.

 

Sailing with the Cal 20 Fleet 8 in Tacoma the past three years, most all the prudent crews take time to back down just before the start, I know we always do. Just because I got used to backing down with the Cal 20s, been doing it with our other boats as well racing. Not that I hadn't backed down before, but only if we had obviously snagged some kelp and usually when we were cruising.

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A built in kelp cutter blade is the only reliable method. Otherwise flail about with sticks or lines over the bow.

 

Is that literally a metal blade on the edge of the keel?

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Yes indeed Kim, there's always something good to be taken from every sail.

 

Joe mentioned backing down, something you don't see to often anymore.

 

Sailing with the Cal 20 Fleet 8 in Tacoma the past three years, most all the prudent crews take time to back down just before the start, I know we always do. Just because I got used to backing down with the Cal 20s, been doing it with our other boats as well racing. Not that I hadn't backed down before, but only if we had obviously snagged some kelp and usually when we were cruising.

 

I watched "Double Take" (I think), which is a J/145, back down to clear kelp on Round the County last year. It was cool to see a big boat sailed in reverse.

 

Sadly it wasn't at the start, it was near the south end of Lopez Island. I was driving at the time and didn't take photos or look for very long.

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Maui Punter - Yes...Various types from single to double sided, some that run in a track some don't. Some are afixed to the leading edge, some at the top of leading edge to the root. My brother fabbed one for a foot long out SS as part of his cutwater. He says it's a pain to sharpen.

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Yes indeed Kim, there's always something good to be taken from every sail.

 

Joe mentioned backing down, something you don't see to often anymore.

 

Sailing with the Cal 20 Fleet 8 in Tacoma the past three years, most all the prudent crews take time to back down just before the start, I know we always do. Just because I got used to backing down with the Cal 20s, been doing it with our other boats as well racing. Not that I hadn't backed down before, but only if we had obviously snagged some kelp and usually when we were cruising.

 

I watched "Double Take" (I think), which is a J/145, back down to clear kelp on Round the County last year. It was cool to see a big boat sailed in reverse.

 

Sadly it wasn't at the start, it was near the south end of Lopez Island. I was driving at the time and didn't take photos or look for very long.

 

 

They must of snagged quite a bit and/or were obviously slowed down and said let's take care of it now. I know I've done it more then a few times over the years, but rarely racing, or if racing used a kelp stick. Some have tried kelp line with over hand knots every foot or so, trailed from the bow, not sure how effective that would be. Seen others using remnants of old spinnaker or just a long lengths of nylon, which two crewman seesawed back and forth the front third of the hull and the root of the keel. Like Bob says, most of our kelp is fairly tenacious.

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