kimbottles

Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

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Does anyone else see the white "doggie" reflection/image in the lower right corner of Kim's photo ?

 

Very nice piece, btw

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Here's the deal on that drawing, the drawing measures about 12" by 28". It's real;y small. Most of the drawing is drawn at .25" to the foot scale.

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Does anyone else see the white "doggie" reflection/image in the lower right corner of Kim's photo ?

 

Very nice piece, btw

 

Yes I saw the "doggie in the window" right away. Probably a reflection of a photo somewhere in the room I'd guess.

 

Great drawing.

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Every once in a while you come across something that is priceless.

Bob got this original drawing from Bill Garden many years ago. Hand colored.

He knew I would get it museum framed if he gave it to me.

I consider it on loan from Bob.

Priceless (and yes, I did put the framing on my CapitalOne card.)

 

Stunning! What year was it drawn? Good job preserving it as well. How about a hi-res digital reproduction (flat scan) for the public archives?

I don't have a clue how to do that. Here's another picture taken at the frame shop.

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What did Mr. Garden include in his drawings, a cat and mouse? Was it a guy with a pipe?

 

Are they there?

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He just has the pipe smoker sitting in the cockpit and a whiff of smoke coming out of the stove pipe.

 

Our lighting it not that good at night for photography, might give it another go tomorrow in natural light.

 

These were taken under LED lights.

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Sure would look great at the dock or at anchor. Can't imagine it would move very well.

 

When I got Garden's first book I seriously lusted after a Spice Island Cutter, amongst several others.

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A bit plank-on-edgy. But an extremely nice drawing.

 

A friend of mine was given a page of C17? hand written Italian, framed, for a wedding present. (He was a caligrapher). Just beautiful.

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Bill did not use a cat and a mouse. That's Bruce Bingham and I don't consider him a designer. He's an illustrator. Bill had a series of cartoon guys. I can draw them all. Or, I could when I was young. He had one cartoon guy, "carrot nose". I always thought that was Bill. As a kid I practiced drawing those men. But as I began my own design work I could never bring myself to use them on my drawings. They were Bill's.

 

Look at that horn timber. Look at that knee in the stem. ( Not sure what it's called.) You need some serious chunks of timber to build that boat.

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Isn't that tumblehome unusual?

 

From Mystic's page on him, two wonderful illustrations:

 

Garden1.jpg

 

 

gardenplan1.jpg

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Ed:

Thanks. I have seen that photo of Bill before but I have never seen the ad.

 

Bill once warned me about buying ad space. He said, " An ad tells the world you're dead and where you are buried."

 

Bill also had strong feelings about having his photo published. He did not like it. He said, and I paraphrase, "Everyone has their own ideal image of what a naval architect looks like. You don't want to shatter that image."

 

About 20 years ago there was a wooden boat gathering in Victoria covered by a yachting magazine. They published their piece along with a photo of a man rowing a Whitehall skiff. The caption read, "Designer Bill Garden trying out a new Whitehall." Bill was livid. The man rowing the skiff was Jay Benford!

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I love this thread drift, but then again Bill Garden is one of my favorite NA!

 

He designed so many cool and diverse vessels.

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KIm:

I look at that photo of Bill in his early office and I have a hard time imagining all the amazing boats busting to get out from that normal sized head.

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The Garden drawing illustrates one of the things that makes guys like Garden different from the rest of us. They acquire encyclopedic amounts information from who knows where. We might expect that he would know all there was to know about vessels native to the Pacific Northwest, but I dare say plank on edge cutters didn't sail through there very often. And he was a little late for full-rigged ships, of which designed at least one.

 

Part of it is curiosity so that they collect information when it's available. Part of it is the ability to infer the whole from the parts, or the parts from the whole. Part is the self-confidence to do it his own way when he doesn't have a prototype.

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A huge chunk of God given talent helps as well.

 

Garden probably saw full rigged ships still working when he was a kid. My dad was about his age and could remember seeing them in Vancouver.

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Ed:

Thanks. I have seen that photo of Bill before but I have never seen the ad.

 

Bill once warned me about buying ad space. He said, " An ad tells the world you're dead and where you are buried."

 

Bill also had strong feelings about having his photo published. He did not like it. He said, and I paraphrase, "Everyone has their own ideal image of what a naval architect looks like. You don't want to shatter that image."

 

About 20 years ago there was a wooden boat gathering in Victoria covered by a yachting magazine. They published their piece along with a photo of a man rowing a Whitehall skiff. The caption read, "Designer Bill Garden trying out a new Whitehall." Bill was livid. The man rowing the skiff was Jay Benford!

For some reason, I think NAs should look like Buddy Holly.

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"Part is the self-confidence to do it his own way when he doesn't have a prototype. '

 

Semi: I think that sums up Bill very nicely.

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Ed:

Thanks. I have seen that photo of Bill before but I have never seen the ad.

 

Bill once warned me about buying ad space. He said, " An ad tells the world you're dead and where you are buried."

 

Bill also had strong feelings about having his photo published. He did not like it. He said, and I paraphrase, "Everyone has their own ideal image of what a naval architect looks like. You don't want to shatter that image."

 

About 20 years ago there was a wooden boat gathering in Victoria covered by a yachting magazine. They published their piece along with a photo of a man rowing a Whitehall skiff. The caption read, "Designer Bill Garden trying out a new Whitehall." Bill was livid. The man rowing the skiff was Jay Benford!

For some reason, I think NAs should look like Buddy Holly.

 

:)

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Bill did not use a cat and a mouse. That's Bruce Bingham and I don't consider him a designer. He's an illustrator. Bill had a series of cartoon guys. I can draw them all. Or, I could when I was young. He had one cartoon guy, "carrot nose". I always thought that was Bill. As a kid I practiced drawing those men. But as I began my own design work I could never bring myself to use them on my drawings. They were Bill's.

 

Look at that horn timber. Look at that knee in the stem. ( Not sure what it's called.) You need some serious chunks of timber to build that boat.

Bob

I have the outboard profile and inside layout plan for Jaeger. I believe it is original from 1951, 35"x23" on blue paper. 3/4 to 1". It has carrot nose up on the fly bridge and carrot nose girl on the fore deck.

I don't recall ever seeing a carrot nose girl. Could be a song in there. :)

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Run down one of your fellow tradesmen, and it doesn't reflect on them.

Are you an MD?

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Russell:

That sounds like an old blueprint. It certainly would be worth preserving.

I have never seen Mrs. carrot nose. I don't think I have ever seen a Bill cartoon woman.

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Run down one of your fellow tradesmen, and it doesn't reflect on them.

Are you an MD?

 

Do I sound like a college boy to you?

 

 

Not even close.

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reaching up from the back seat, trying to correct the drift a bit.

 

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Run down one of your fellow tradesmen, and it doesn't reflect on them.

Are you an MD?

 

Do I sound like a college boy to you?

 

 

Do I sound fat?

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I see something funny when I look at that old Garden heeled illustration.

Bill was obviously drawing quickly. The first and third boats have hulls that are asymmetrical, especially through the garboards.

The middle boat is pretty much symmetrical; but you can see where Bill has erased the original asymmetrical line.

Makse me wonder why he did not correct the other two hulls.

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I just look at that boat and wonder how you're supposed to make a cup of tea.

 

ham-1.png

(Nicked from Dylan).

 

Screw the tea. There's enough depth in that hull to run a full-sized distillery. Just don't get caught on a falling tide.

 

That's actually quite startling, I expect a hull to have some garboard tuck. It's like seeing a pretty girl with fat knees and cankles.

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Ish:

That's what I was thinking, I'm fine with full garboards but this boat takes it to a new level. "Cankles". " Aye laddy, she's got full cankles."

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At first I thought that thing was draped below the waterline.

 

I guess you make tea on the lower deck.

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Just goes to show that people have been building funny shaped boats for a rating advantage for years. If the rating formula is:

 

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it's not hugely surprising people build narrow boats.

 

charles-p-kunhardt-six-beam-cutter.jpg

 

(Not the same boat as this: )

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Good one- might think of steel too, not to drag that in here. Steel and candles are dangerous together.

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Kind of FRANCIS related because she is long, narrow, light and double ended.

 

I repainted the St Lawrence River Skiff over the last couple days. Now trying to decide if she really needs two coats or not. I think of her as a rowing skiff not art, so maybe I will just go take her for a row instead of adding more paint.

 

Maybe I will redo her varnish later this year too. It has been several years.....

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Kim, you seem to somehow attract beautiful boats!

 

She must be really nice to row.

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Of course you've done most of the work already, so a second coat of paint is "easy" to do now. Later, you'll have to do much of the prep work again...

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Kim, you seem to somehow attract beautiful boats!

 

She must be really nice to row.

Yeah, maybe even nicer if I dropped one of those sliding seat units in her, but that would not be traditional.

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Of course you've done most of the work already, so a second coat of paint is "easy" to do now. Later, you'll have to do much of the prep work again...

Oh thanks! Strip away my excuses to go do something fun!

 

But you are probably right, now is the best time to add another coat. I have a bit over half a can of paint left too.......

Damn that is one fine looking pulling boat. We'll have to go for a row sometime Kim. I'd drive down for that.

You are ALWAYS welcome down here Maestro.

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Just goes to show that people have been building funny shaped boats for a rating advantage for years. If the rating formula is:

 

2101870d2761e53e1d8ce03063d50a36.png

 

it's not hugely surprising people build narrow boats.

 

charles-p-kunhardt-six-beam-cutter.jpg

 

(Not the same boat as this: )

12346561_795513763907937_323453733221147

Slack bilges?

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As far as I'm concerned, this is the Kim Bottles thread and all your craft are welcome. +1 for doing the second coat now.

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Kim,

You're going to get this site banned from use by my IT department if you don't stop posting all this boat porn.

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I don't see any purpose to those "flaccid" bilges, other than to get more volume into a very narrow beam. In fact, when the boat is heeled, it appears the lateral center of buoyancy may not move to leeward at all. I guess if you put all your equipment, engine, and stores in the bilge you could at least get the center of gravity pretty low.

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The flacid bilges also contain a lot of volume down low, so it takes a humongous amount of ballast to get the boat down to her lines.

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Semi:

With all due respect that is not quite true. Displacement has zero to do with what it takes to immerse the boat.

This confuses a lot of people.

 

I'm sure I go over this in my book but in case you don't have the book.

 

You are talking about "pounds per inch immersion". Or, if you put X number of pounds on a given hull how much will it sink. I know it sounds a bit counter-intuitive but displacement does not figure into that calculation at all.

Pounds per inch immersion is a function of waterplane. Call it the boat's "footprint" in the water. Slice the boat off at the DWL and measure the square footage of the remaining plane.

 

The formula is very simple: waterplane in sq. ft. times 64 divided by 12.

Or, how much does an inch of water weigh on your waterplane.

 

So, if we have two boats, both 40' LOA. One boat displaces 17,000 lbs. The other boat displaces 28,000 lbs. Let's say beam is about the same and DWL is about the same. Both boats will have a pounds per inch immersion number around 3,500 lbs.. That is, it will take 3,500 lbs. to make each boat sink an inch. And, the fact is that our two 40'ers, while very different boats, probably have waterplanes roughly similar.

 

To guesstimate your own waterplane. Take 60% of your BWL times your DWL. Your designer can tell you the real number.

 

 

Of course, due to the flare of the topsides as you sink the boat the waterplane area will increase so the pounds per inch immers. number will go up accordingly.

 

This is not "opinion". This is page 285 in Skene's Elements of yacht Design. What's in the water is already sunk. You are now after how much it takes to sink the boat another inch or two or three.

 

There you have it.

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Another way to describe it would be to note that a narrow boat doesn't have a lot of form stability, so if it has a lot of displacement, and sail area to match, it's going to need a lot of ballast.

 

Boat designers worried a lot about wetted surface back when boats lime this were common. The move to light displacement came next, then long waterlines. Then, voila! Frankie!

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You guys (at least a couple of you, and you know who you are) shamed me into a second coat of paint for the St Lawrence River Skiff.

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You guys (at least a couple of you, and you know who you are) shamed me into a second coat of paint for the St Lawrence River Skiff.

That is beautiful Kim and admit it, you know it was the right thing to do. St Lawrence River Skiff Lives Matter! ;)

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You guys (at least a couple of you, and you know who you are) shamed me into a second coat of paint for the St Lawrence River Skiff.

 

 

You have no shame!

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You guys (at least a couple of you, and you know who you are) shamed me into a second coat of paint for the St Lawrence River Skiff.

That is beautiful Kim and admit it, you know it was the right thing to do. St Lawrence River Skiff Lives Matter! ;)

 

Yeah, don't tell anyone, but I was glad to be pushed into that second coat.

 

Now I am eyeing my Blakely Harbor Rowing Skiff, she needs a refresh on her paint too.

 

(Apparently my niece rowing in the second photo did not realize with a passenger there is a forward rowing station to trim the boat better.)

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Great weather this weekend, so epoxy skim coat first yesterday (with proper additives per Russell.)

Then sanding carefully this morning to get it all smooth and level with the existing surface.

Then masking off just for safety (have to feather the paint into the existing, never done that before, this will be interesting!)

Might take a couple thin coats of paint to make it look good, cross my fingers.......but my expectations are not high.

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As expected, first coat did not cover completely.

So covered the area to keep the bugs out of the paint and will hit it with a second coat, maybe later today. Then the long cure and sand with 320 before the third coat.

I am trying to develope patience in my old age.

I rather be sailing, but nice to get this repair towards the end.

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Sounds like hell! And I'm jealous as hell.

 

We've just bought another boat. Well the same boat we sold a year ago. The guy walked away and we're buying it back for the yard fees. We need another boat like we need to be trepanned, but we have a cunning plan.

 

Should be wrapped up by the end of this week.

 

Funny old world.

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Kim:

So this is it. You retire and spend your time messing around with boats.

Congrats.

Well, messing around in boats & cycling.

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Get going Kim....its supposed to be 80 degrees on Tuesday, should be nice to go out for a cruise!

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Kim:

So this is it. You retire and spend your time messing around with boats.

Congrats.

At least he's well-anchored.

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Well, after a very interesting and entertaining repair job FRANCIS is fully operational again.

 

Paint job is not perfect, I will work on it again later on when I have more time, but it is not bad.

 

Big learning opportunity and most enjoyable. (But I did have great coaching. Thanks Russell, thanks Jim.)

 

Time to go sailing.

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Nice work Kim.

+1

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I have a couple of small areas that need attention...is Kim Bottles Floating Boat Repair Inc. going to be in our neighbourhood soon?

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I just look at that boat and wonder how you're supposed to make a cup of tea.

 

ham-1.png

(Nicked from Dylan).

 

Holy cow.

Praise the lord. How much cow tungsten is there?

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Well, after a very interesting and entertaining repair job FRANCIS is fully operational again.

 

Paint job is not perfect, I will work on it again later on when I have more time, but it is not bad.

 

Big learning opportunity and most enjoyable. (But I did have great coaching. Thanks Russell, thanks Jim.)

 

Time to go sailing.

It may not be perfect, but you can't tell that from here. Nice work.

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Well, after a very interesting and entertaining repair job FRANCIS is fully operational again.

Paint job is not perfect, I will work on it again later on when I have more time, but it is not bad.

Big learning opportunity and most enjoyable. (But I did have great coaching. Thanks Russell, thanks Jim.)

Time to go sailing.

It may not be perfect, but you can't tell that from here. Nice work.
It is serviceable for now. I am pretty sure I can make it better by hitting it with some 320 and then giving it another coat using a soft roller instead of a brush. Then the rubbing and polishing compound to finish it off. The color matches very well.

 

This retirement gig is pretty cool. No time pressure. Lots of time to try out things I never had the time for while employed.

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I have a real fear of heights, basically, anything over 6'. I had a dream last night that I was walking over the Aurora bridge. I was terrified. It's a very high and narrow bridge over the west end of Lake Union in Seattle. Kim was in front of me and Dave was behind me.

 

Kind of interesting. No?

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This retirement gig is pretty cool. No time pressure. Lots of time to try out things I never had the time for while employed.

Watching Frankie from afar through t'interwebs, I loved the concept and design. Loved the craftsmanship. Loved the pics of her on the water.

 

But the icing on the cake is watching her being endlessly fettled and cared for. That's my idea of a real boat: one where the people who sail her know every inch of her inside out, having worked on or around most of it.

 

That intimacy between sailor and boat is what makes Tom Scott's Whimsy so cool. But in this case, the sailor is also the boat's mother, and that makes this boat uber-cool.

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This retirement gig is pretty cool. No time pressure. Lots of time to try out things I never had the time for while employed.

 

Watching Frankie from afar through t'interwebs, I loved the concept and design. Loved the craftsmanship. Loved the pics of her on the water.

But the icing on the cake is watching her being endlessly fettled and cared for. That's my idea of a real boat: one where the people who sail her know every inch of her inside out, having worked on or around most of it.

 

That intimacy between sailor and boat is what makes Tom Scott's Whimsy so cool. But in this case, the sailor is also the boat's mother, and that makes this boat uber-cool.

TwoLegged, I tried to PM you, but apparently you do not allow that option. Kim

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Hi Kim

 

Sorry! I have never played much with the settings on this site, or tried using anything other than posting in the forums, so I dunno how to send or receive PMs.

 

I just looked around the settings page, and can't see anything that looks relevant. Is anyone able to point me to an idiot's guide on how to enable PMs?

 

(I googled "anarchy for dummies", and this, which was v educational but not v relevant unless I decide to start the revolution! Which, as survivors of 1980s England may recall, will of course be As Soon As This Pub Closes <_< )

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Hi Kim

 

Sorry! I have never played much with the settings on this site, or tried using anything other than posting in the forums, so I dunno how to send or receive PMs.

 

I just looked around the settings page, and can't see anything that looks relevant. Is anyone able to point me to an idiot's guide on how to enable PMs?

 

(I googled "anarchy for dummies", and this, which was v educational but not v relevant unless I decide to start the revolution! Which, as survivors of 1980s England may recall, will of course be As Soon As This Pub Closes <_< )

 

Try going to the upper right corner of the SA screen and clicking on the little drop down arrow next to your name.

Then, when the drop down choice appears, click on "Personal Messenger". (bottom left column}

A new screen will open that says: "My Conversations".

On the left hand side, you will see below "Folder", "Storage", and "Search Messages" - a final item ...a little box that says "Disable Messenger".

Go ahead and click on that box, and when you do, a new box will open that will give you an option to re-activate your messenger.

Select that choice (re-activate), and you should be able to send and receive messages. :)

 

Hope this helps! - Tom Scott

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As one's fan base grows, the ability of those fans to contact one privately becomes less desirable.

 

There are some very weird people on this board.

The ignore function works for personal messages too. ;)

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Hi Kim

 

Sorry! I have never played much with the settings on this site, or tried using anything other than posting in the forums, so I dunno how to send or receive PMs.

 

I just looked around the settings page, and can't see anything that looks relevant. Is anyone able to point me to an idiot's guide on how to enable PMs?

 

(I googled "anarchy for dummies", and this, which was v educational but not v relevant unless I decide to start the revolution! Which, as survivors of 1980s England may recall, will of course be As Soon As This Pub Closes <_< )

 

Try going to the upper right corner of the SA screen and clicking on the little drop down arrow next to your name.

Then, when the drop down choice appears, click on "Personal Messenger". (bottom left column}

A new screen will open that says: "My Conversations".

On the left hand side, you will see below "Folder", "Storage", and "Search Messages" - a final item ...a little box that says "Disable Messenger".

Go ahead and click on that box, and when you do, a new box will open that will give you an option to re-activate your messenger.

Select that choice (re-activate), and you should be able to send and receive messages. :)

 

Hope this helps! - Tom Scott

 

 

Thanks Tom ... but when I try that, the "personal messenger" option isn't there :(

 

Here's what my dropdown looks like:

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Thanks Tom ... but when I try that, the "personal messenger" option isn't there :(

 

Huh.

Well, I have no idea why your SA screen looks different than mine.

I think you need "Admin" help. <_<

...Sorry 'bout that. :(

 

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What on earth would make me spend an afternoon (yesterday) cleaning every nook and cranny of FRANCIS with old tooth brushes??

(She sure is looking good!)

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Maybe it was because this guy was coming aboard for a sail last night. (He even designated what he wanted me to wear. Pretty serious professional that Neil guy.)

 

Poor Neil, he was shooting for WoodenBoat Magazine and he was complaining that other than the tiller there is no visible wood on deck.

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Obviously, painted wood isn't wood, is it? :rolleyes:

There is no wood (painted or otherwise) on the deck of FRANCIS other than the tiller. We went with foam core composite for strength and light weight for the deck/cockpit/cabin/interior structure/drop boards/companionway hatch/toerail/companionway ladder. She does have cherry cabinets, fiddles, door and drawer fronts. Her cabin sole is cherry and ash foam core and her table is cherry wrapped nomex core carbon.

 

FRANCIS was never intended to be a "traditional" wood boat, rather she is a modern wood/composite vessel using any and all material that best fits the need as we saw it.

 

We recognize she is a bit of affront to some wood boat traditionalists, but we did not build her to satisfy that desire. I like and have owned traditional plank on frame wooden boats in the past, but that was not the intended direction of the SLIVER project.

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