• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
kimbottles

Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

Recommended Posts

planer.

 

:wub:

 

 

Oldie but a goodie. I really like the weigh of some of those old power tools. Built to last. Fred was fiddling with it and judged it to be in great shape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

 

I love this. They are planning on building one of the most beautiful daysailers I have ever seen and we are already drolling over a *workbench*. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow...'chipboard' or 'osb' or whatever that is in the strongbacks...I assume that's not going into the boat? :huh:

 

I only vaguely understand what a strongback is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

 

I love this. They are planning on building one of the most beautiful daysailers I have ever seen and we are already drolling over a *workbench*. :)

 

Well with workbenches like those, this will certainly be one hell of a boat! This is a fantastic project and I'm just glad we get a front-row seat. Thanks for sharing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back in the day most Woodworking students/apprentices had to build a workbench as their final exam/first big project project or somesouch. Given that all the benches look basically the same, Was it class project before setting off on building the actual boat?? This would explain the brick shithouse aspect.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow...'chipboard' or 'osb' or whatever that is in the strongbacks...I assume that's not going into the boat? :huh:

 

I only vaguely understand what a strongback is.

 

A strongback is a stiff, straight, level, ladder like structure about the length of the boat upon which the mold frames are set, squared up and leveled. The mold frames are sections of the boat made from lumber or plywood or particle board. In strip planking the strips of wood would be laid over the frames (which have had some sort of release agent applied to prevent them from sticking to the hull) to form the hull. Sometimes the transverse bulkheads are built ahead of time and used as mold frames. They can be incorporated into the initial build this way. The deck can be built similarly but without the bhds incorporated.

 

It is important that the strongback be straight and level because it is the foundation upon which the rest of the hull is built. I'm sure the chipboard, OSB, etc is for the strongback only and will not be used in the boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

 

I love this. They are planning on building one of the most beautiful daysailers I have ever seen and we are already drolling over a *workbench*. :)

That's because good workbenches are critical to being able to get work done; they're not just "random work surface", they're a tool every bit as essential as that planer. I have two - one is a 6' bench that's built from 2x4 studs faced with plywood, and held together with threaded rods holding the frame under tension. The bench weighs over 200 pounds and I can do anything with it - it'll support a ton (literally), the surface is flat and level, it has vices built into it that can hold anything smaller than it is in the right orientation to work on without running into edges of the bench or other things around it. It's the center of my workshop; everything happens around it. I spent a lot of time thinking over what I wanted and how I wanted it - and what I got is a perfect tool.

 

The other one is an old piece of countertop with scrap 2x4 for a base. It works. I use it for storage (there's a shelf built in under it for a bunch of tools) and holding things like that tool I'll need again in an hour while I do the real work over on the bench. But if I tried to use it for real work, it'd be constantly pissing me off - it wobbles a little bit if you hit it right, heavy weights make it sag in the middle, the vice is just bolted to a corner and is awkward as often as it's useful... You get the idea. People who don't really do anything with wood (or metal) walk into my shop and assume the countertop is the main bench; it's longer, it's more prominent, it has stuff on it, etc. Real carpenters walk into my shop and immediately go to the real bench.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow...'chipboard' or 'osb' or whatever that is in the strongbacks...I assume that's not going into the boat? :huh:

 

I only vaguely understand what a strongback is.

 

A strongback is a stiff, straight, level, ladder like structure about the length of the boat upon which the mold frames are set, squared up and leveled. The mold frames are sections of the boat made from lumber or plywood or particle board. In strip planking the strips of wood would be laid over the frames (which have had some sort of release agent applied to prevent them from sticking to the hull) to form the hull. Sometimes the transverse bulkheads are built ahead of time and used as mold frames. They can be incorporated into the initial build this way. The deck can be built similarly but without the bhds incorporated.

 

It is important that the strongback be straight and level because it is the foundation upon which the rest of the hull is built. I'm sure the chipboard, OSB, etc is for the strongback only and will not be used in the boat.

 

Thanks for the explanation Jose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

 

Not me!

The students built them.

I just show up every Monday and take pictures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

 

I love this. They are planning on building one of the most beautiful daysailers I have ever seen and we are already drolling over a *workbench*. :)

That's because good workbenches are critical to being able to get work done; they're not just "random work surface", they're a tool every bit as essential as that planer. I have two - one is a 6' bench that's built from 2x4 studs faced with plywood, and held together with threaded rods holding the frame under tension. The bench weighs over 200 pounds and I can do anything with it - it'll support a ton (literally), the surface is flat and level, it has vices built into it that can hold anything smaller than it is in the right orientation to work on without running into edges of the bench or other things around it. It's the center of my workshop; everything happens around it. I spent a lot of time thinking over what I wanted and how I wanted it - and what I got is a perfect tool.

 

The other one is an old piece of countertop with scrap 2x4 for a base. It works. I use it for storage (there's a shelf built in under it for a bunch of tools) and holding things like that tool I'll need again in an hour while I do the real work over on the bench. But if I tried to use it for real work, it'd be constantly pissing me off - it wobbles a little bit if you hit it right, heavy weights make it sag in the middle, the vice is just bolted to a corner and is awkward as often as it's useful... You get the idea. People who don't really do anything with wood (or metal) walk into my shop and assume the countertop is the main bench; it's longer, it's more prominent, it has stuff on it, etc. Real carpenters walk into my shop and immediately go to the real bench.

 

 

Oh I completely agree. I wasn't knocking the workbenches at all. My "I love this" was not sarcasm.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow...'chipboard' or 'osb' or whatever that is in the strongbacks...I assume that's not going into the boat? :huh:

 

I only vaguely understand what a strongback is.

 

A strongback is a stiff, straight, level, ladder like structure about the length of the boat upon which the mold frames are set, squared up and leveled. The mold frames are sections of the boat made from lumber or plywood or particle board. In strip planking the strips of wood would be laid over the frames (which have had some sort of release agent applied to prevent them from sticking to the hull) to form the hull. Sometimes the transverse bulkheads are built ahead of time and used as mold frames. They can be incorporated into the initial build this way. The deck can be built similarly but without the bhds incorporated.

 

It is important that the strongback be straight and level because it is the foundation upon which the rest of the hull is built. I'm sure the chipboard, OSB, etc is for the strongback only and will not be used in the boat.

 

None of the strongback material will find it way into the finished boat. (Jose's description is spot on.)

 

Jim and Russell have stressed the need for accuracy in the building of the strongbacks. Amos and Fred concur and are being very careful to make them true.

 

We are using temporary molds made from melamine cut on Brandon's CNC machine. Temporary because we want to sheath the inside of the hull with a continuous run of e-glass before we install the bulkheads. (Better strength that way per Tim our engineer. Bob also thought this a good idea.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

planer.

 

:wub:

 

That was part of my reaction too. I worked in a wood shop one summer that had one very much like that.

 

The other part was fear. I remember dropping an enormous beam, and the corner landed right on my big toe. Lost the nail. Learned why people wear steel toed boots.

 

ETA: good reminder on safety basics from another forum - http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/skills/yale-students-tragic-death-prompts-a-shop-safety-review

 

I remember getting yelled at for operating the big sanding machine with my shirt untucked. There was a moment of teenage irritation at being yelled at, then I saw the real fear on my boss' face. I suddenly knew the horrible vision he had in his head, of me being sucked into that machine. I stopped and tucked my shirt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow...'chipboard' or 'osb' or whatever that is in the strongbacks...I assume that's not going into the boat? :huh:

 

I only vaguely understand what a strongback is.

 

Those are truss joists - TJIs - straight as an arrow and strong as hell in the direction of interest. Main point of a strongback is to provide a platform against which the whole build is referenced, so straight, straight, straight is the mantra. The OSB is merely the web of an I-beam (all the web essentially does is keep the flanges apart). The flanges are made of many layers of veneer laid in a lengthwise orientation, so each part of the I-beam is optimized for its purpose. This is what they called engineered lumber (as are related parallams, glu-lams, etc.), and they're ideal for a strongback. Unfortunately they're kind of floppy until integrated into a structure.

 

My question is, they are available in 60' lengths - that's how they are shipped to most lumberyards. Wouldn't it have been easier to use them full length, rather than re-joining them at the shop? Straighter that way, too.

 

BTW, this a gorgeous project that is a pleasure to follow. I can smell the shavings all the way out here!

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My question is, they are available in 60' lengths - that's how they are shipped to most lumberyards. Wouldn't it have been easier to use them full length, rather than re-joining them at the shop? Straighter that way, too.

Mike

 

I have no idea why they did not get 60's. I will ask. (I suspect the local yard in Port Hadlock did not carry 60's. It is a bit out in the sticks.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are some shots of the strong back set ups. First is a shot of Jim Franken (right) talking over the specifics of the setup with Amos (with Fred working away in the background.) Then one of the corner pads for the setup, you will note the "bondo" peaking out from the edge. The pads are held down with the bondo and after these corner pads were set a mono-filament line was stretched from corner to corner to align the rest of the pads. Accuracy here will relate to accuracy in the build, so the guys are being very careful to get this part of the set up spot-on.

 

Then there is a shot of the ripping setup and the resultant hull strips.

post-8115-055805800 1303773615_thumb.jpg

post-8115-043874600 1303773632_thumb.jpg

post-8115-092681900 1303773651_thumb.jpg

post-8115-079874800 1303773695_thumb.jpg

post-8115-051246700 1303773714_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My question is, they are available in 60' lengths - that's how they are shipped to most lumberyards. Wouldn't it have been easier to use them full length, rather than re-joining them at the shop? Straighter that way, too.

Mike

 

I have no idea why they did not get 60's. I will ask. (I suspect the local yard in Port Hadlock did not carry 60's. It is a bit out in the sticks.)

 

 

Full 60's would have been special order, take longer to get and harder to handle. The shipwrights thought they could control the straightness better if they made them up themselves.

 

I set up some of the cross pieces so you could see how they create the ladder form of the strong backs. The far set of pads are for the deck mold and the near set are for the hull.

 

Building dedication is next Saturday around noon, so if you are in the area stop by and say hi.

post-8115-053638000 1303774891_thumb.jpg

post-8115-097657800 1303774955_thumb.jpg

post-8115-068667300 1303775003_thumb.jpg

post-8115-093663000 1303775055_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

 

 

Just for you I took another picture.....or two of the work benches.....

post-8115-001896500 1303775325_thumb.jpg

post-8115-033945200 1303775378_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've loved working with wood all my life. I can smell it sitting here in Santa Cruz there must be a new feature to this internet thingy. Very cool to see you guys going at it!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, those workbenches are built like brick sh*thouses! Looks like you either had some extra lumber laying around or you want to support a LOT of weight. They look really sharp, nice work!

 

 

Just for you I took another picture.....or two of the work benches.....

 

Sweet! Thanks for the love.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a picture of the School's old contemporary shop, my cold molded commuter boat was built there in 2005.

 

Sliver would have been a very tight fit in there!

 

Nice old shop Kimb. While I understand the economic, safety (fire resistant), and easy maintenance aspects of the concrete floor in the new shop, there's nothing like working on a wood floor. It's easy on your feet, deadens sound, and dropped tools are less likely to get damaged. It looks great too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a picture of the School's old contemporary shop, my cold molded commuter boat was built there in 2005.

Sliver would have been a very tight fit in there!

Nice old shop Kimb. While I understand the economic, safety (fire resistant), and easy maintenance aspects of the concrete floor in the new shop, there's nothing like working on a wood floor. It's easy on your feet, deadens sound, and dropped tools are less likely to get damaged. It looks great too.

Have a good time at the building dedication this weekend Kim.

I like that old wood floor. So much to learn in here; good points about the benefits of it being wood,. btw - great signature line Jose, great minds think alike and all that stuff. : )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kim:

I should be there for the dedication but ND is going to be here at the house with the hungster.

Have fun. Wear your kilt. It becomes you.

 

Why don't the 3 of you grab some beer and do a road trip??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kim:

I should be there for the dedication but ND is going to be here at the house with the hungster.

Have fun. Wear your kilt. It becomes you.

 

 

Bob, I will do my best to represent you. They have asked me to say a few words about the project and you know how I will start off:

 

"This project is dedicated to the memory of my father Frank and Bob's son Spike."

 

Spike and Frank would have gotten along very well, in fact I would not be surprised if they are now pals where ever it is we go after we leave here.

 

Bet they are sailing along on a reach together right now having a great time.

post-8115-032610000 1303955679_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kim:

I should be there for the dedication but ND is going to be here at the house with the hungster.

Have fun. Wear your kilt. It becomes you.

 

 

Bob, I will do my best to represent you. They have asked me to say a few words about the project and you know how I will start off:

 

"This project is dedicated to the memory of my father Frank and Bob's son Spike."

 

Spike and Frank would have gotten along very well, in fact I would not be surprised if they are now pals where ever it is we go after we leave here.

 

Bet they are sailing along on a reach together right now having a great time.

 

Nice picture. Love the pipe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dedication day for the new Jeff Hammond Boat Shop and we had about 100+ people show up.

But what really surprised me was how much work got done since last Monday (turns out they were waiting for the final sign off from the County before they really got underway.)

Confused a lot of people with the upside down deck/cabin/cockpit mold.

The other strong back is waiting for the hull forms soon to arrive from the CNC machine (the flat surface on the hull strongback was for fitting the deck molds together.

The strips all have their beads and coves milled into them now.

A couple 62'+ strongbacks really fill up the new building!

post-8115-050825700 1304215232_thumb.jpg

post-8115-011780900 1304215320_thumb.jpg

post-8115-088736500 1304215386_thumb.jpg

post-8115-001720700 1304215443_thumb.jpg

post-8115-041960300 1304215520_thumb.jpg

post-8115-079159900 1304215643_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good turnout! I can almost smell the wood from here. Mmmm

These photos are a good visual reminder of how long she will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kimb,

 

The planking looks great. What will be the fasteners used? My memory is that some form of fastener is driven from one plank to the next to hold things together. Just wondering what is "state of the art" now.

 

Beau

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kimb,

 

The planking looks great. What will be the fasteners used? My memory is that some form of fastener is driven from one plank to the next to hold things together. Just wondering what is "state of the art" now.

 

Beau

 

 

Plastic nails driven in with a special airgun (looks like a normal air nailer but special head for the plastic nails.) They don't weigh much so we can leave them in. They hold eveything together until the epoxy sets/cures (or whatever it is epoxy does.......)

 

I ordered the sheathing material Friday per the recommendation of Tim Nolan the engineer. Two big rolls of it. The test panel appears to be quite stout. One thing I can say about Tim's engineering; this is going to be a strong boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry I missed the dedication kim but the Anti Destination league threw up a few roadblocks. Looks like things are coming along nicely.

 

Jose,

 

I can arrange a private showing pretty much anytime you want to see her.

 

KimB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Confused a lot of people with the upside down deck/cabin/cockpit mold.

 

 

Ha, just reminded me of when we were building hawk (upside down). A couple who was thinking about building a similar boat came by, and the woman looked up into the hull and said 'it's got a cathedral ceiling!'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work on deck mold continues. Fitting all of the support pieces together to hold up the laminating surface which will be made of MDF.

 

It's amazing watching all the expensive computer cut bits which will not be in the finished boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work on deck mold continues. Fitting all of the support pieces together to hold up the laminating surface which will be made of MDF.

 

It's amazing watching all the expensive computer cut bits which will not be in the finished boat.

 

Hopefully they will free up some labor and they also introduce quite a bit of accuracy into the mix. But your point is very interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work on deck mold continues. Fitting all of the support pieces together to hold up the laminating surface which will be made of MDF.

 

It's amazing watching all the expensive computer cut bits which will not be in the finished boat.

 

Hopefully they will free up some labor and they also introduce quite a bit of accuracy into the mix. But your point is very interesting.

 

This really underscores something I've learned in many pursuits over the years. Really important jobs often require more planning, preparation and setup then the actual work.

 

This seems to be a good example of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bj...you are right about that. I've been trying to build a new chart table for my 35 yr old 4KSB & the actual cutting up of the expensive teak plywood was the least dramatic part of the whole thing. :huh:

 

sorry for the hijack kimb. This is really exciting. I don't know much about building anything..but I have a feeling these step-by-step photos will enlighten a lot of people, especially myself, pretty much related to Ish's comments. I've always thought it weird that they have rollback dumpsters at sites where there is "new construction" going on, & the amount of waste that is produced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work on deck mold continues. Fitting all of the support pieces together to hold up the laminating surface which will be made of MDF.

 

It's amazing watching all the expensive computer cut bits which will not be in the finished boat.

 

Hopefully they will free up some labor and they also introduce quite a bit of accuracy into the mix. But your point is very interesting.

 

This really underscores something I've learned in many pursuits over the years. Really important jobs often require more planning, preparation and setup then the actual work.

 

This seems to be a good example of that.

An art teacher I had in school said during a Still Life class: Don't draw what you think is a glass.... look at it... there are no edges only shades of light.... drawing is 80% looking and 20% drawing"

 

That definitely applies to designing and building anything... 80% thinking and 20% doing... most fkups occur because of the inverse ratio :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work on deck mold continues. Fitting all of the support pieces together to hold up the laminating surface which will be made of MDF.

 

It's amazing watching all the expensive computer cut bits which will not be in the finished boat.

 

Hopefully they will free up some labor and they also introduce quite a bit of accuracy into the mix. But your point is very interesting.

 

This really underscores something I've learned in many pursuits over the years. Really important jobs often require more planning, preparation and setup then the actual work.

 

This seems to be a good example of that.

An art teacher I had in school said during a Still Life class: Don't draw what you think is a glass.... look at it... there are no edges only shades of light.... drawing is 80% looking and 20% drawing"

 

That definitely applies to designing and building anything... 80% thinking and 20% doing... most fkups occur because of the inverse ratio :lol:

 

 

Indeed. That was a lesson for me too. Not to draw what you think it is but to draw what you see. If you capture the light and shadow properly, people will know what is there.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bj...you are right about that. I've been trying to build a new chart table for my 35 yr old 4KSB & the actual cutting up of the expensive teak plywood was the least dramatic part of the whole thing. :huh:

 

sorry for the hijack kimb. This is really exciting. I don't know much about building anything..but I have a feeling these step-by-step photos will enlighten a lot of people, especially myself, pretty much related to Ish's comments. I've always thought it weird that they have rollback dumpsters at sites where there is "new construction" going on, & the amount of waste that is produced.

 

You should see all of the melamine dust Brandon puts into the dumpster after he cuts out stuff on that CNC machine. It is everywhere!

 

Planning is everything on this project, that's why we have so many really skilled and experienced guys helping us. We are making sure everything is straight and aligned before we start building anything that will actually end up in the vessel.

 

The qualilty of the people working on this project just blows me away. We are very lucky to have such a pool of talent in the PT area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work on deck mold continues. Fitting all of the support pieces together to hold up the laminating surface which will be made of MDF.

 

It's amazing watching all the expensive computer cut bits which will not be in the finished boat.

 

Hopefully they will free up some labor and they also introduce quite a bit of accuracy into the mix. But your point is very interesting.

 

It takes some labor hours out of the set-up but you add some in the front end engineering of the project. The accuracy will be spot on assuming correct set-up. We send electronic files directly to a firm with 5 axis CNC mills and receive a mold some weeks later. We just need to spray it with Duratec and give it a final sanding. It takes all the labor and innaccuracy out of hand building a mold and our crew can concentrate on other aspects of the project(s). This is for FRP boats, not wood though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this work makes me wonder about the economy of building a few of these boats at the same time.

I guess the hull cost is less than one third of the total cost, still...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Work on deck mold continues. Fitting all of the support pieces together to hold up the laminating surface which will be made of MDF.

 

It's amazing watching all the expensive computer cut bits which will not be in the finished boat.

 

 

The 'expensive computer cut bits' will be seen in the finished boat, the final shape will be easier to fair just for a start. hence less labour hours etc.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this work makes me wonder about the economy of building a few of these boats at the same time.

I guess the hull cost is less than one third of the total cost, still...

 

 

The problem is getting enough people together to buy more than one hull.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think on most boats, even very simple systems boats, the hull cost is closer to 15% or 17% of total cost (before overhead and profit). As complexity goes up that can get closer to 12%.

 

All this work makes me wonder about the economy of building a few of these boats at the same time.

I guess the hull cost is less than one third of the total cost, still...

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ND's exactly right.

 

This is the reason that the best way one can build a "cheaper" boat is by leaving stuff out of it. It's why the ULDB boats from Santa Cruz are so inexpensive - no stuff.

 

Every time I get within a 1/2 mile of West Marine my bank account shrinks, and none of that stuff has anything to do with the hull or rig. (the stuff that makes the boat sail)

 

BV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ND's exactly right.

 

This is the reason that the best way one can build a "cheaper" boat is by leaving stuff out of it. It's why the ULDB boats from Santa Cruz are so inexpensive - no stuff.

 

Every time I get within a 1/2 mile of West Marine my bank account shrinks, and none of that stuff has anything to do with the hull or rig. (the stuff that makes the boat sail)

 

BV

 

I am keeping careful records of the Sliver project costs, so I will have data when the project ends. Hopefully we will find a good use for that data. I had a hard time finding meaningful data when I started this project.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting Jose, what do they mill it out of and what size boats are we talking??

 

Well, we build 150-250 ft custom mega-yachts, but many production builders use the same method to produce either plugs or molds. The material is a specially formulated tooling paste applied over a lighter sprayed foam and plywood/tgi base. Check out www.janicki.com or search for Bayview Composites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my recent experiences on CATARI, BV is dead on as usual, and this is Jose's bsuiness so of course he knows). The big costs are in systems and the related labor and complexity of installations. That and 'exotic materials", to the extent used.

 

I have detailed data from the 8 builders who submitted line item pricing at my request when pricing bids on CATARI. Labor hours estimated in 40 categories, wage rates, equipment costs, materials costs by category, allocated and unallocated overhead, profit, etc.

 

I obviously can not (and never would) share the information by name or at an individual bidder level, but when you look at averages, it paints quite a consistent and interesting picture of the allocations of labor and mateirals involved, and where the costs are.

 

Now I can say that while I'm not a boat builkder, I DID stay at a Holiday Inn.

 

.

ND's exactly right.

 

This is the reason that the best way one can build a "cheaper" boat is by leaving stuff out of it. It's why the ULDB boats from Santa Cruz are so inexpensive - no stuff.

 

Every time I get within a 1/2 mile of West Marine my bank account shrinks, and none of that stuff has anything to do with the hull or rig. (the stuff that makes the boat sail)

 

BV

 

I am keeping careful records of the Sliver project costs, so I will have data when the project ends. Hopefully we will find a good use for that data. I had a hard time finding meaningful data when I started this project.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my recent experiences on CATARI, BV is dead on as usual, and this is Jose's bsuiness so of course he knows). The big costs are in systems and the related labor and complexity of installations. That and 'exotic materials", to the extent used.

 

I have detailed data from the 8 builders who submitted line item pricing at my request when pricing bids on CATARI. Labor hours estimated in 40 categories, wage rates, equipment costs, materials costs by category, allocated and unallocated overhead, profit, etc.

 

I obviously can not (and never would) share the information by name or at an individual bidder level, but when you look at averages, it paints quite a consistent and interesting picture of the allocations of labor and mateirals involved, and where the costs are.

 

Now I can say that while I'm not a boat builkder, I DID stay at a Holiday Inn.

 

.

ND's exactly right.

 

This is the reason that the best way one can build a "cheaper" boat is by leaving stuff out of it. It's why the ULDB boats from Santa Cruz are so inexpensive - no stuff.

 

Every time I get within a 1/2 mile of West Marine my bank account shrinks, and none of that stuff has anything to do with the hull or rig. (the stuff that makes the boat sail)

 

BV

 

I am keeping careful records of the Sliver project costs, so I will have data when the project ends. Hopefully we will find a good use for that data. I had a hard time finding meaningful data when I started this project.

 

I wonder how many of those eight builders would actually be able to deliver the vessel at that cost without playing the change order game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My best assesment is 3 of them, which in large part made those the three finalists -- not the three cheapest, but the three who by past work and reputation seem to always have honored their estimates and not played games, and have the client and designer references to back it up.

 

From my recent experiences on CATARI, BV is dead on as usual, and this is Jose's bsuiness so of course he knows). The big costs are in systems and the related labor and complexity of installations. That and 'exotic materials", to the extent used.

 

I have detailed data from the 8 builders who submitted line item pricing at my request when pricing bids on CATARI. Labor hours estimated in 40 categories, wage rates, equipment costs, materials costs by category, allocated and unallocated overhead, profit, etc.

 

I obviously can not (and never would) share the information by name or at an individual bidder level, but when you look at averages, it paints quite a consistent and interesting picture of the allocations of labor and mateirals involved, and where the costs are.

 

Now I can say that while I'm not a boat builkder, I DID stay at a Holiday Inn.

 

.

ND's exactly right.

 

This is the reason that the best way one can build a "cheaper" boat is by leaving stuff out of it. It's why the ULDB boats from Santa Cruz are so inexpensive - no stuff.

 

Every time I get within a 1/2 mile of West Marine my bank account shrinks, and none of that stuff has anything to do with the hull or rig. (the stuff that makes the boat sail)

 

BV

 

I am keeping careful records of the Sliver project costs, so I will have data when the project ends. Hopefully we will find a good use for that data. I had a hard time finding meaningful data when I started this project.

 

I wonder how many of those eight builders would actually be able to deliver the vessel at that cost without playing the change order game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My best assesment is 3 of them, which in large part made those the three finalists -- not the three cheapest, but the three who by past work and reputation seem to always have honored their estimates and not played games, and have the client and designer references to back it up.

 

Good call ND. My experience after 30 years in the construction industry says that the lowest bid rarely turns out to be the lowest cost and almost never the best value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nor the highest. Something about the hungry guys in the 70th percentile that I'm drawn to ....

 

 

My best assesment is 3 of them, which in large part made those the three finalists -- not the three cheapest, but the three who by past work and reputation seem to always have honored their estimates and not played games, and have the client and designer references to back it up.

 

Good call ND. My experience after 30 years in the construction industry says that the lowest bid rarely turns out to be the lowest cost and almost never the best value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nor the highest. Something about the hungry guys in the 70th percentile that I'm drawn to ....

 

 

My best assesment is 3 of them, which in large part made those the three finalists -- not the three cheapest, but the three who by past work and reputation seem to always have honored their estimates and not played games, and have the client and designer references to back it up.

 

Good call ND. My experience after 30 years in the construction industry says that the lowest bid rarely turns out to be the lowest cost and almost never the best value.

 

Pick the builder you trust the most based on personal chemistry and negotiate the project with them. I have used that method on a number of boat and non boat projects with 100% good results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good advice, and more or less where I am now (except I like two).

 

My issue -- unlike building a house, for instance -- was that until I sent the specs out and got all the comparison pricing and building data back in and talked to builders, I was at such an informational disadvantage that it was hard to really call it "negotiating", it was more like a series of "please don't take advantage of me" conversations. As a cranky old enterprenuer, that made me uncomfortable, so I got educated while at the same time vetting builders, meeting some great folks, learning about boat building and builders, doing site visits to shops, talking to references and employees, etc.

 

Overall its been a fun journey so far, and having Bob at my side and Wung, Sons, Estar, BV and all you guys here on CA helping has been a huge asset.

 

 

Nor the highest. Something about the hungry guys in the 70th percentile that I'm drawn to ....

 

 

My best assesment is 3 of them, which in large part made those the three finalists -- not the three cheapest, but the three who by past work and reputation seem to always have honored their estimates and not played games, and have the client and designer references to back it up.

 

Good call ND. My experience after 30 years in the construction industry says that the lowest bid rarely turns out to be the lowest cost and almost never the best value.

 

Pick the builder you trust the most based on personal chemistry and negotiate the project with them. I have used that method on a number of boat and non boat projects with 100% good results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good advice, and more or less where I am now (except I like two).

 

My issue -- unlike building a house, for instance -- was that until I sent the specs out and got all the comparison pricing and building data back in and talked to builders, I was at such an informational disadvantage that it was hard to really call it "negotiating", it was more like a series of "please don't take advantage of me" conversations. As a cranky old enterprenuer, that made me uncomfortable, so I got educated while at the same time vetting builders, meeting some great folks, learning about boat building and builders, doing site visits to shops, talking to references and employees, etc.

 

Overall its been a fun journey so far, and having Bob at my side and Wung, Sons, Estar, BV and all you guys here on CA helping has been a huge asset.

 

 

Nor the highest. Something about the hungry guys in the 70th percentile that I'm drawn to ....

 

 

My best assesment is 3 of them, which in large part made those the three finalists -- not the three cheapest, but the three who by past work and reputation seem to always have honored their estimates and not played games, and have the client and designer references to back it up.

 

Good call ND. My experience after 30 years in the construction industry says that the lowest bid rarely turns out to be the lowest cost and almost never the best value.

 

Pick the builder you trust the most based on personal chemistry and negotiate the project with them. I have used that method on a number of boat and non boat projects with 100% good results.

 

ND, you have identified one of the nubs of the problem, With a building or a bridge you can define things. Design it, engineer it, cost estimate it and then contract manage it. No one is emotionally involved.

 

A yacht is however is a different mistress. Think of the word "artisan" and what it implies. Technology and contract management can build a high rise. A custom yacht is a piece of art in many ways and all involved need to feel the love (trite I know but all I've got right now).

 

IMHO this is why so many yacht/boat builders go south. Not that I'm suggesting I have an answer to that.

 

Yacht builders, as are their designers, artists in their own way. Passion is involved and sometimes the nuts and bolts financially dont make the grade. Its a funny business. Artists usually dont make good accountants.

 

I know I'm rambling here, so to distill. Choose a builder who shares the passion and allow enough slush fund to make it happen without conflict. To a point of course.

 

Should I have such a problem. I am very much looking forward to sharing this experience vicariously. Then I just have to wait until all the varnish work starts deteriorating and my retirement is sealed.

 

Perhaps I'm just a getting old romantic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

ND, you have identified one of the nubs of the problem, With a building or a bridge you can define things. Design it, engineer it, cost estimate it and then contract manage it. No one is emotionally involved.

 

A yacht is however is a different mistress. Think of the word "artisan" and what it implies. Technology and contract management can build a high rise. A custom yacht is a piece of art in many ways and all involved need to feel the love (trite I know but all I've got right now).

 

IMHO this is why so many yacht/boat builders go south. Not that I'm suggesting I have an answer to that.

 

Yacht builders, as are their designers, artists in their own way. Passion is involved and sometimes the nuts and bolts financially dont make the grade. Its a funny business. Artists usually dont make good accountants.

 

I know I'm rambling here, so to distill. Choose a builder who shares the passion and allow enough slush fund to make it happen without conflict. To a point of course.

 

Should I have such a problem. I am very much looking forward to sharing this experience vicariously. Then I just have to wait until all the varnish work starts deteriorating and my retirement is sealed.

 

Perhaps I'm just a getting old romantic.

 

Paps,

 

I think you've nailed it. The challenge for ND is to find a builder who understands, shares and can build his vision. The challenge for the builder is he knows it's an emotional project. There will be change activity. A low cost builder is driven by his business model to quote to spec and then reprice for every change to that spec. A "romantic builder" may price to the dream, be very accommodating to change and still make a handsome profit by having a high "all inclusive price". A "70%" as ND calls them will have pricing that accommodates a reasonable amount of change activity, particularly changes that don't generate lost material or extensive rework, and deals upfront with what will constitute a costed change order. The build relationship with the low bidder will not be pleasant. The high builder will be easy to deal with at a cost and the 70% tends to be the artisan that embraces the dream and turns it into the ravishing beauty that ND has envisioned, Bob has drawn and Sons has so ably rendered. That builder will be a part of Catari forever.

 

Well done in your due diligence ND.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IB and Paps: Thanks for the encouraging words. We have put a lot of time and effort into the design and then the builder selection. I think time and money spent p front selecting the best designer and then the best builder are worth the investment. The 'best" is very subjective, as you say, as it means a comfort level. But it also means honesty, integrity and a passion for boats. In the end I am selecting people I'd like to go sailing with or have over to my house for dinner. People who like the same type of boat I do, appreciate where and why I sail.

 

I do note, however, that we have now COMPLETELY hijacked the Sliver thread, and suggest we re-engage on Drool ! Sorry KmB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its not really a hijack, you have come full circle to the point KmB is at now.

In his way, he as chosen builders with integrity and passion, and has also managed to leverage a community benefit from the build as well.

Its a bit like the old patrons of the arts, they enjoyed the process of creation as well as the end product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IB and Paps: Thanks for the encouraging words. We have put a lot of time and effort into the design and then the builder selection. I think time and money spent p front selecting the best designer and then the best builder are worth the investment. The 'best" is very subjective, as you say, as it means a comfort level. But it also means honesty, integrity and a passion for boats. In the end I am selecting people I'd like to go sailing with or have over to my house for dinner. People who like the same type of boat I do, appreciate where and why I sail.

 

I do note, however, that we have now COMPLETELY hijacked the Sliver thread, and suggest we re-engage on Drool ! Sorry KmB

 

I do not consider this a hijack, it all relates to getting a custom boat built. No worries at all. Carry on here or in drool, I will be following the conversation in either thread.

 

Its not really a hijack, you have come full circle to the point KmB is at now.

In his way, he as chosen builders with integrity and passion, and has also managed to leverage a community benefit from the build as well.

Its a bit like the old patrons of the arts, they enjoyed the process of creation as well as the end product.

 

 

Spot on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good call ND. My experience after 30 years in the construction industry says that the lowest bid rarely turns out to be the lowest cost and almost never the best value.

 

The more bidders there are in an auction, the greater the probability that the winner is someone who has made a mistake in estimating the value (or cost depending on context).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watching the build is great - kinda like a magician showing exactly how the trick is done...and knowing you could still never do it yourself.

It took me 3 weeks to build a friggin' chicken coop!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watching the build is great - kinda like a magician showing exactly how the trick is done...and knowing you could still never do it yourself.

It took me 3 weeks to build a friggin' chicken coop!

We have 11 chickens at home, and Mrs K is never satisfied with the chickens' accommodations. As such I've built 3 coops. Finally we outsourced the last one to the tune of many boat dollars. Wasted. On chickens.

 

Now this is really a hijack!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi:

 

There is a risk of that, as you say. And it is real.

 

A few points:

 

I never set out to select a low bidder and i have shared with each builder the fact that they need to price the build to make money and feel good about it. That's why I asked each builder to fill out the same spreadsheet that my son and I prepared, listing by line item the labor hours and materials costs of each of 46 different line items. They also shared direct labor rates, indirect labor costs such as benefits, fixed overhead, variable overhead, and projetced profit. In some cases like NAVCOM we simply built in an allowance.

 

What we saw on round one was that there were outliers in many categories -- up AND down. I discussed each such line item with each of the builders. In cases where I felt they had not allocated sufficient time, I told them and invited them to raise the hours. In many cases they did, in others they stuck by the original labor estimate. Often the labor had been included elsewhere, so it was a wash and merely how they account for the project.

 

I also found pretty wide variances in the materials and/or equipment being used -- despite detailed specifications. Those were discussed as well, and adjustments made to a baseline. My goal was to get to "apples to apples" comparisons. I will say that in all cases the builders appreciated that we were calling "up" as well as "downs" to their attention.

 

In round two the hours and labor were much closer, and not as many errors. The differences their were much more a matter of the builders quality, efficiency and preferences.

 

Interestingly, in the end, the labor hours for the direct build were within 4,500 hours (high of 26,500, a low of 22,000), all of which was explainable and not due to errors. The equipment costs and rigging etc. were almost identical. Material costs varied by almost 30%, but the variances were all due to known factors and builder prerferences as well.

 

To me, the process we used was not an auction, which suggests people handing in numbers and then selecting them rather blindly. It certainly wasn't a perfect process, but it got us to where we are today, was fun and we learned a lot about boat building before starting.

 

Good call ND. My experience after 30 years in the construction industry says that the lowest bid rarely turns out to be the lowest cost and almost never the best value.

 

The more bidders there are in an auction, the greater the probability that the winner is someone who has made a mistake in estimating the value (or cost depending on context).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watching the build is great - kinda like a magician showing exactly how the trick is done...and knowing you could still never do it yourself.

It took me 3 weeks to build a friggin' chicken coop!

We have 11 chickens at home, and Mrs K is never satisfied with the chickens' accommodations. As such I've built 3 coops. Finally we outsourced the last one to the tune of many boat dollars. Wasted. On chickens.

 

Now this is really a hijack!

 

Do you think the chickens even noticed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small, small world.

 

Mrs. ND now wants chickens for fresh eggs. Is it something about sailing wives? Are the "organic" eggs at the stores REALLY so bad that they warrant having chickens at home and the associated work and mess? Don't our wives realize that this is time that could be spent working on our on boats or at West Marine buying useful things?

 

Watching the build is great - kinda like a magician showing exactly how the trick is done...and knowing you could still never do it yourself.

It took me 3 weeks to build a friggin' chicken coop!

We have 11 chickens at home, and Mrs K is never satisfied with the chickens' accommodations. As such I've built 3 coops. Finally we outsourced the last one to the tune of many boat dollars. Wasted. On chickens.

 

Now this is really a hijack!

 

Do you think the chickens even noticed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small, small world.

 

Mrs. ND now wants chickens for fresh eggs. Is it something about sailing wives? Are the "organic" eggs at the stores REALLY so bad that they warrant having chickens at home and the associated work and mess? Don't our wives realize that this is time that could be spent working on our on boats or at West Marine buying useful things?

 

Watching the build is great - kinda like a magician showing exactly how the trick is done...and knowing you could still never do it yourself.

It took me 3 weeks to build a friggin' chicken coop!

We have 11 chickens at home, and Mrs K is never satisfied with the chickens' accommodations. As such I've built 3 coops. Finally we outsourced the last one to the tune of many boat dollars. Wasted. On chickens.

 

Now this is really a hijack!

 

 

Do you think the chickens even noticed?

 

Eggzactly! And, yes, this thread is a bit scrambled. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small, small world.

 

Mrs. ND now wants chickens for fresh eggs. Is it something about sailing wives? Are the "organic" eggs at the stores REALLY so bad that they warrant having chickens at home and the associated work and mess? Don't our wives realize that this is time that could be spent working on our on boats or at West Marine buying useful things?

Of course they know that, what they've really noticed is that chickens are in the back yard and don't accept credit cards.

 

Also - yes, fresh eggs from your own chickens are better and worth the work and mess (especially since, if you're smart about it, there's very little work and the mess is all straight to the garden - which, at least in my house, is my wife's domain.) Even "farm fresh organic" eggs at the store come from specialty breeds where the aim was consistent laying with long shelf life and thick shell (for better transport). Not flavor.

 

Even better if you're willing to do it is to raise chickens for meat. A farm-raised chicken is rushed to market in as little as six weeks. A fully mature chicken harvested at 18 months tastes as good as the best duck. Farm kids (real farm kids, there aren't many of us around anymore) never got the old "everything tastes like chicken" jokes until we left home and started eating this crap they sell at the market. Of course, if my family were to do that we'd need to be killing at least 2 per week, which for 18 months means over 150 chickens at any one time... but we wouldn't have to worry about having enough eggs. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When we were in Mexico our housekeeper's father raised chickens and she brought in eggs with mud and straw still clinging to them.

They were amazing. They were almost iradescent yellow with yokes that stood high off the whites. I ate them everyday I was there.

 

Matt: My boat is in Everett as of yesterday. Yahoo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am shocked, shocked at the extent to which this hijack has been continued.

 

I agree with Matt and Bob that eggs from a real chicken are nothing like the "organic" at the grocery store. We feed ours kitchen scraps and along with the rest of their diet of bugs and seeds and stuff they get while pecking around the yard their diet is much better than the mono-grain diet the factory chickens get, and the eggs reflect that.

 

And compared to keeping the horses the chickens are easy. Just stay away from noisy roosters. We always get ours from the Murray McMurray (no joke) hatchery. The postal service still carries them through the mail system,a throwback. We have a variety of breeds. They're actually kind of fun to have around. I say "Hi girls" when I'm near them and they make happy little noises in return.

 

I make an improvised classic coq au vin on the boat in a pressure cooker. The bird is supposed to be an old cock (hence the name) that's been around but whose time has finally come. A real chicken's meat is way more flavorful than the stuff in stores, but as in this dish it has to be slow cooked as it would otherwise be tough. Same goes for all the other animals we eat.

 

I'm getting hungry.

 

ND, I say you should let your beautiful wife get chickens. You'll enjoy them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes I will enjoy the eggs. I will enjoy a fresh chicken when I roast it with garlic and rosemary (after Mrs slaughters it, in my mind). But what I dont want is to get roped into the upkeep. Mind you, I ahve no idea what that is, i just feel it coming.

 

i'm hungry now too.

 

I am shocked, shocked at the extent to which this hijack has been continued.

 

I agree with Matt and Bob that eggs from a real chicken are nothing like the "organic" at the grocery store. We feed ours kitchen scraps and along with the rest of their diet of bugs and seeds and stuff they get while pecking around the yard their diet is much better than the mono-grain diet the factory chickens get, and the eggs reflect that.

 

And compared to keeping the horses the chickens are easy. Just stay away from noisy roosters. We always get ours from the Murray McMurray (no joke) hatchery. The postal service still carries them through the mail system,a throwback. We have a variety of breeds. They're actually kind of fun to have around. I say "Hi girls" when I'm near them and they make happy little noises in return.

 

I make an improvised classic coq au vin on the boat in a pressure cooker. The bird is supposed to be an old cock (hence the name) that's been around but whose time has finally come. A real chicken's meat is way more flavorful than the stuff in stores, but as in this dish it has to be slow cooked as it would otherwise be tough. Same goes for all the other animals we eat.

 

I'm getting hungry.

 

ND, I say you should let your beautiful wife get chickens. You'll enjoy them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am shocked, shocked at the extent to which this hijack has been continued.

 

............Just stay away from noisy roosters............

 

 

 

I have a neighbor across the creek with chickens and at least 2 roosters. They take turns crowing until about noon most days. One has a "traditional" call. The other sounds like he's a 2 pack a day smoker.... They live about 300 yards from my back door so it's a sound that we hear but doesn't bother us. Not sure I'd want to be his next door neighbor.

 

Kimb said we could hijack.

 

What are you thinking about for dinner ND? I fed 45 high school boy Lax players last night. I don't want to cook pasta again for a while but it's amazing to watch them put it away!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am shocked, shocked at the extent to which this hijack has been continued.

 

Kimb said we could hijack.

 

 

As I understand it, hijacking is a honored tradition here on CA and I am just fine with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am shocked, shocked at the extent to which this hijack has been continued.

 

............Just stay away from noisy roosters............

 

 

 

I have a neighbor across the creek with chickens and at least 2 roosters. They take turns crowing until about noon most days. One has a "traditional" call. The other sounds like he's a 2 pack a day smoker.... They live about 300 yards from my back door so it's a sound that we hear but doesn't bother us. Not sure I'd want to be his next door neighbor.

 

Kimb said we could hijack.

 

What are you thinking about for dinner ND? I fed 45 high school boy Lax players last night. I don't want to cook pasta again for a while but it's amazing to watch them put it away!

Should we now move this discussion on to lacrosse? smile.gif