kimbottles

Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

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" No offense intended but gratuitous controversy and offensiveness are enemies of conversation."

 

There, I fixed that for you Jax.

 

Thank you, Master. May I have some more?

 

 

 

 

 

(Point taken.)

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Prop choices for the 39 hp Yanmar sail drive on the Sliver;

 

Considering Gori three blade vs. Maxiprop three blade.

 

By chance has anyone here done a direct comparison?

 

I believe 19" fits the SD-50 sail drive.

 

Would like both great sailing AND motoring performance.

 

(Of course I would really like a variable pitch prop controlled from the cockpit, but that is not practical on a Saildrive unit unless someone has developed something I am not aware of lately.)

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Sam,

 

Thanks, that was an interesting read!

 

Yes, looks like I have to add the Flex-o-Fold to the list to consider.

 

(I wonder about the Gori being a 15" against the 16" props of other makers.)

 

Kim

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Oh, come on. Go Martec.

 

The efficiency sailing is more than made up for by the uncertainty of braking while docking.

 

Wait!

 

How often will you dock?

 

The purity of panic is its own reward.

 

But approaching a mooring buoy under power is just wrongheaded. Even if there is current. Unless you're backing up in it. To it? In a double ender? Priceless. This is why Bob has a mooring buoy.

 

Heh heh. Dragging a buoy. Now that's intense fun. Sinking one? That's just confusing.

 

 

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The biggest benefit of the Max Prop is the symetrical blade design and that gives you beter control in reverse. But I had a Gori on my saildrive on the PERRYWINKLE and it backed up like a dream.

I have zero experience with the Flex-O-Fold so I'd like to try it.

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We have a Flex-O-Fold on a Saga 409 that I've docked many times (it's in our charter fleet so it's back and forth to the pump-out dock) and also cruised around Eastern NC and the Bahamas. It's on a shaft not a saildrive, and I don't have a direct comparison because that prop has been on the boat since new, but we've been very happy with it. It's low drag when sailing, and we have not had any problem controlling the boat in forward or reverse under power when docking. Also it's a relatively simple, trouble-free mechanism. Seems to me like it would be pretty ideal for a boat like Sliver.

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We have a two-bladed flex-o-fold on the race boat with a Yanmar 2GM and saildrive. Has been fantastic for 16 seasons. motors well, reverses well. Easy to take apart and clean as well.

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Have you considered the Kiwi prop?

 

http://www.kiwiprops.co.nz/cms/index.php

 

When we did our haul out in the spring, we considered a prop upgrade. I looked at MaxProp and Kiwi. We chose not to do the upgrade for other reasons but, I seriously considered the Kiwi. It is less expensive than the Max and has some features that might be interesting to you.

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I've used MaxProp on my monohull but discovered and evaluated the AutoProp side by side on a catamaran against a fixed three blade.I am convinced that the AutoProp is the most efficient in both fwd and reverse as well as being very suited for electrical regeneration while sailing as on the cat which had electric motors. I was able to measure amp draw and compare for a wide range of sailing, motorsailing, and powering conditions. I wish that I had been able to fit a MaxProp in place of the fixed 3bl and do the same side by side comparison with the AutoProp. The only downside I found to the AutoProp was at low sailing speeds the blades wouldn't streamline to the 'neutral' fully feathered position due to the assymetric nature of the blade and its pivot. Minor thing but that geometry is what lets the prop find the proper pitch for any speed/power combination. It was really impressive while motorsailing to hear the prop re-pitch when a gust of wind accelerated the boat yet the amperage draw would stay constant which indicated that the prop was changing pitch to be able to maintain the power draw despite the varying speed. I have no connection with Brunton the manufacturer but they have been making propellers probably longer than anyone in business today and this prop is the culmination of over a hundred years of prop design and manufacturing.

 

http://www.autoprop.info/Ecostar/EcoStar_Propeller_brochure.pdf

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I had a bad Autoprop experience. Once above idle the prop whined. I mean whined big time. You could hear it off the boat. It almost sounded like an ambulance was following the boat. On top of that the boat, a 60'er, was never reaching the top speed I anticipated. PYI gave us a Max Prop and told us to try it and if we liked it we could buy it. We bought it. At the time I was aware that there were some very happy Autoprop owners. Our experience was not so good.

 

I'll tell you a prop story:

Years ago when Peter Rachtman and I were testing props on his SoPac 42 we had a variety of proips to test including a feathering Martec that I think is no longer available. It was a prop from NZ that Martec was pushing as an answer to the Ma Prop. It didn't open in reverse unles you kept the rpms over 1,000. We had some interesting ( scary) moments with that prop. It was not much fun approaching the dock at 1,000 rpm. So Martec sent their big wig up to Seattle, really great guy. We went out on the boat and demonstrated the problem. His comment immediately was, "Well, I'm not sure what is different about this boat.........." In short he was going to blame my design for the behaviour of his prop. I explained to him in a very calm manner that the other props all worked fine going into reverse so I don;t think it was the boat's problem. OK. Maybe slightly less than "camly".

 

Shortly after that we received a set of instructions from Martec telling us how to modify the blades so that this problem would go away. I'm pretty sure this set of modification instructions had been sent out to all the owners of that prop.

 

That said, I always liked the old Martec IOR prop. It was a bit wonky in reverse but you knew it was and you operated the boat accordingly. I don;t even recall what that prop was called, maybe Martec Mk 3.

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I had a bad Autoprop experience. Once above idle the prop whined. I mean whined big time. You could hear it off the boat. It almost sounded like an ambulance was following the boat. On top of that the boat, a 60'er, was never reaching the top speed I anticipated. PYI gave us a Max Prop and told us to try it and if we liked it we could buy it. We bought it. At the time I was aware that there were some very happy Autoprop owners. Our experience was not so good.

 

I'll tell you a prop story:

Years ago when Peter Rachtman and I were testing props on his SoPac 42 we had a variety of proips to test including a feathering Martec that I think is no longer available. It was a prop from NZ that Martec was pushing as an answer to the Ma Prop. It didn't open in reverse unles you kept the rpms over 1,000. We had some interesting ( scary) moments with that prop. It was not much fun approaching the dock at 1,000 rpm. So Martec sent their big wig up to Seattle, really great guy. We went out on the boat and demonstrated the problem. His comment immediately was, "Well, I'm not sure what is different about this boat.........." In short he was going to blame my design for the behaviour of his prop. I explained to him in a very calm manner that the other props all worked fine going into reverse so I don;t think it was the boat's problem. OK. Maybe slightly less than "camly".

 

Shortly after that we received a set of instructions from Martec telling us how to modify the blades so that this problem would go away. I'm pretty sure this set of modification instructions had been sent out to all the owners of that prop.

 

That said, I always liked the old Martec IOR prop. It was a bit wonky in reverse but you knew it was and you operated the boat accordingly. I don;t even recall what that prop was called, maybe Martec Mk 3.

 

Bob. Are you talking about the old Martec folding prop? Those were very low drag but, as you say, you had to understand that it took a lot of throttle to reverse a little and never come into a slip "hot". To this day, no matter what I'm driving, I shift to reverse outside the fairwater and check reverse before committing to close quarters. I learned that with and old Martec...

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Bob

 

Put a boat with a KIWI prop on it in reverse at that RPM and watch the excitement...it's like someone figured out how to fit a sailboat with power brakes.

 

If caution is not exercised, beer could well end up spilled!!

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Our electric cat could stop and back so fast you could knock people off their feet! And that was with the fixed 3bl original props. It was even better crash stop/backing with the AutoProps. I just found a really comprehensive article that sums up my experience with the hybrid electric cat and my experiments with the props. AutoProp was used in this study and did a series of modifications to the standard AutoProp as a result and was found to be more efficient. Not only for the hybrids but for conventional drive applications as well. I sure wish I had some of the neat logging apps that are shown in this article. Long read and gets pretty technical at time but worth a look.

 

Bob, did you ever figure out what was making the noise in your AutoProp? The bearing surface between the blades and the hub is quite large and I was always very careful to make sure that there was no slop there. I was a bit prone to fouling from marine growth but any folder or featherer has the same problems.

 

http://www.bruntons-propellers.com/hymar/HYMAR.PDF

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Rasper:

The boat and prop were brand new when the problem started. Never did figure out the problem and the Autoprop people tried hard to find an answer.

 

IB:

Yes the old Martec two blade folder. Great prop. Very low drag. But it did not completely unfold in reverse. I think it opened about 35% of the way in reverse and you had to sort of gose it to make sure it did open at all. You got used to it like you say. Everybody used that prop in the 70's.

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Rasper:

The boat and prop were brand new when the problem started. Never did figure out the problem and the Autoprop people tried hard to find an answer.

 

IB:

Yes the old Martec two blade folder. Great prop. Very low drag. But it did not completely unfold in reverse. I think it opened about 35% of the way in reverse and you had to sort of gose it to make sure it did open at all. You got used to it like you say. Everybody used that prop in the 70's.

 

Are you saying I'm old?

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Thanks for all of the ideas and experiences with various props. I figure I might as well investigate all of the models people have experience using in as much as we will need to buy something.

 

(BTW, I have had good luck with two blade and three blade Maxprops in the past, but I figure I might as well review the issue now to see what other options exist.)

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Not a lot to report for this Monday.

Head sink shelf now installed.

Mount for the C-Head now cured.

Electrical panel fitted.

The crew is doing way too good a job on bilge, I will now have to clean it weekly!

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Kim, my only comment on the prop issue is the "auto" pitching of the Autoprop could be very useful on Sliver being that the hull will be so easily driven. I notice in the above test results it delivered top speed @ about 300rpm less than most others.

 

You wont just have to clean those bilges you will need to wax and polish them!!

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Pretty certain wew will not use the Autoprop. Kim is open minded on this. I'd sure like to try either the Kiwi prop or the Flex-O-Fold. I have no experience with either of these. I have known the guys at PYI for 30 years. There is no quetion we can get great service out of PYI should we go Max Prop.

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For what it's worth, Hinckley used to recommend Maxprop and now Gori. I've been happy with my Gori, as has BV if I remember correctly.

 

front.jpg

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Pretty certain wew will not use the Autoprop. Kim is open minded on this. I'd sure like to try either the Kiwi prop or the Flex-O-Fold. I have no experience with either of these. I have known the guys at PYI for 30 years. There is no quetion we can get great service out of PYI should we go Max Prop.

 

I would suspect that the AutoProp isn't really something that would work on a saildrive. The "swing" of the curved blades is fairly significant. I know MoeA is very happy with his Kiwi prop and i've also heard good things about the flex-o-fold.

 

The only complaint I've ever heard on a Max Prop is cost and that the flat blades aren't the most efficient in putting power in the water. Otherwise, I've never met an unhappy user.

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In the prop testing I did the one thing that all the props had in common was the ability to drive the boat at hull speed.

The symetrical blades of the Max work just fine driving the boat at top speed and they pay off big time in reverse.

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Having already successfully had several Max Props they are a leading contender, the Flex-o-Fold is another strong possibility as is Gori.

 

I have time to check all the options out before I have to decide.

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I understand that some props are "approved" by the engine manufacturer for warranty purposes, i.e. use something not approved and risk voiding the new engine warranty. Apparently this is especially true for saildrives, even though one would think that there are less potential vibration issues.

 

Any claims experience out there on this?

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Looks like the long frustrating saga of getting the keel fin fabricated is finally coming to an end. I will be using a local commercial nonyacht fabricator who has successfully done this kind of work in the past. Fabricating this fin will be an easy job for them compared to their usually work which is generally much more complicated. They will also drill the lead bulb for the attachment bolts after it is poured by the local lead foundry.

 

The mold for the lead will be made in two halves out of exterior grade plywood and coated with a concrete sealing product know as "water glass". The plywood will be glued up with epoxy and then CNC cut to the desired shape. Then the two halves will be joined and reinforced with some all thread running through the meaty area of the plywood around the perimeter of the lead.

 

There was a recent lead keel poured using a plywood mold and the lead foundry liked it because the plywood mold did not cool the lead so it poured easier. The mold will also act as a nice holder for the bulb as the drilling takes place.

 

The various steel parts of the fin will be water jet cut to make fabrication much easier. Jim is doing the cutting files now.

 

We had a great meeting of the various parties Monday and it was very comforting to realize the fabricator knew just exactly how to do this project in the most efficient manner. They made several suggestions to make the project go easier that Tim the engineer liked and bought off on.

 

I will get some pictures of all this, it is scheduled for late Feb/early March.

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When the wind totally died, I would bounce up and down on the transom of our U20 to see if the beavertail bulb would propel us forward. I think it did. Having a double ender will make this easier for you. You'll need more personel on the stern though. I think.

 

I tried to talk Bob into a flexi beaver tail bulb for Amati once during 'some' wine with dinner. Another 20 minutes, and I think could have convinced him. Right.

 

Kim, you still have time! It wouldn't be illegal on a one design! And it would be harder to break when grounding. I think the Dahl porpoises ( Harbor porpoises?) would dig it. 'Hey baby, what's your sign?"

 

Paint it black and white? We had some white bottom paint like eyes on our bulb for a short while. Stinger tail though, not as sexy as a beaver tail to the local aquatic mammals, methinks.

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Paint it black and white? We had some white bottom paint like eyes on our bulb for a short while.

 

I do like the gold colour they painted the bulb on the TP52 Ran. But she is drysailed.

 

IMG_0532.jpeg

 

ran-keel.jpg

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I hoped I wouldnt have to do this but he has left me no choice.

 

Shute Man is Dale dug a hole etc, etc ,etc. Ignore.

 

SM, you made some valid points on occasion and I supported some of them. I also put a contrary view when you were triple flicked by the Ed asking why this happened when DoRag was still here. I also gave Boomer a hard time as I felt he was also partially at fault which he was in my opinion.

 

Sadly you seem to have a bug up your arse and are intent on creating mayhem or friction with no positive contribution. I dont need that in real life, internet life or any other life and I have been more patient with you than most here.

 

I dont know what your affliction is but it gets boring real fast, maybe I'm just a slow learner or maybe I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, the Aussi "fair go". Either way you have exhausted my possibilities.

 

If you want to discuss, message me by all means but you are a boil on the bum this forum and I dont know why you are here. Whats the motivation?

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I hoped I wouldnt have to do this but he has left me no choice.

 

Shute Man is Dale dug a hole etc, etc ,etc. Ignore.

 

SM, you made some valid points on occasion and I supported some of them. I also put a contrary view when you were triple flicked by the Ed asking why this happened when DoRag was still here. I also gave Boomer a hard time as I felt he was also partially at fault which he was in my opinion.

 

Sadly you seem to have a bug up your arse and are intent on creating mayhem or friction with no positive contribution. I dont need that in real life, internet life or any other life and I have been more patient with you than most here.

 

I dont know what your affliction is but it gets boring real fast, maybe I'm just a slow learner or maybe I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, the Aussi "fair go". Either way you have exhausted my possibilities.

 

If you want to discuss, message me by all means but you are a boil on the bum this forum and I dont know why you are here. Whats the motivation?

It was an honest question. plans have shown the keel to be fuel tank. now with a C-head there is a 50 gal holding tank area left over?

 

 

 

.

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And you'll probably need a pump to get the fuel up from the keel to the engine. That was the case with Amati. The keel strut was hollow for extra tankage. The pump just seemed too fiddly, to say nothing of the battery issue. Besides, with 15 gallons of fuel, we fill up about 3-4 times a season. I imagine Kim will do likewise?

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Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

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Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

 

Kim, I know you are sometimes inundated by suggestions but, if you haven't, you might want to consider putting one of these on your fuel vent. It helps reduce moisture in the tank and the subsequent bio-problems.

 

http://www.h2out.com/products/h2out-avd/h2out-avd2-0

 

I installed one on Brigadoon based on the recommendations of the fuel polisher I hired (didn't work for the company), an independent mechanic (didn't work for the company) and a few presenters at the boat show (last year and this).

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Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

 

Are you going to have solid fin then, or hollow with <something> in it?

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Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

 

Kim, I know you are sometimes inundated by suggestions but, if you haven't, you might want to consider putting one of these on your fuel vent. It helps reduce moisture in the tank and the subsequent bio-problems.

 

http://www.h2out.com...vd/h2out-avd2-0

 

I installed one on Brigadoon based on the recommendations of the fuel polisher I hired (didn't work for the company), an independent mechanic (didn't work for the company) and a few presenters at the boat show (last year and this).

 

Looks good, thanks Black.

 

I never mind getting serious suggestions. Some of those received on this thread have been keepers and we will use them. This is one of those.

 

The purpose of this thread (which I thought long and hard about before I started it) was to bring the WLYDO together to share the build of a unique vessel and to see what ideas showed up from the vast knowledge base on this forum.

 

It was also to promote the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding in our long term mission to offer excellent wooden boat-building training to both hobbyist and people seeking a career in boat building. We love support in any form to further our mission.

 

Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

 

Are you going to have solid fin then, or hollow with <something> in it?

 

Empty

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Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

 

Are you going to have solid fin then, or hollow with <something> in it?

 

After lining it appropriately (oak ?), it will become the single malt storage and aging facility. Or it could be divided and half of it used for aging rum.

 

Would make for interesting 'testing' gatherings - to validate the concept, and provide quality assurance, of course.

 

An interesting variation on 'bung up and bilge free'.

 

edit: nuts. Not fast enough on the keyboard.

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Rasper:

The boat and prop were brand new when the problem started. Never did figure out the problem and the Autoprop people tried hard to find an answer.

 

IB:

Yes the old Martec two blade folder. Great prop. Very low drag. But it did not completely unfold in reverse. I think it opened about 35% of the way in reverse and you had to sort of gose it to make sure it did open at all. You got used to it like you say. Everybody used that prop in the 70's.

 

Are you saying I'm old?

 

A lot of people still use them including me. You can still buy new ones. I'm looking for a new prop too. Something with better performance under power both in forward and reverse. Well, any performance in reverse would be nice.

 

The more I look at props, the more I read reviews and threads about props, the more I realize that asking about props is like asking about anchors.

 

What I really want is to get one from each manufacturer and sea trial each. This will never happen due to the expense of it all but it's a nice dream.

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Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

 

Kim, I know you are sometimes inundated by suggestions but, if you haven't, you might want to consider putting one of these on your fuel vent. It helps reduce moisture in the tank and the subsequent bio-problems.

 

http://www.h2out.com...vd/h2out-avd2-0

 

I installed one on Brigadoon based on the recommendations of the fuel polisher I hired (didn't work for the company), an independent mechanic (didn't work for the company) and a few presenters at the boat show (last year and this).

 

Looks good, thanks Black.

 

I never mind getting serious suggestions. Some of those received on this thread have been keepers and we will use them. This is one of those.

 

The purpose of this thread (which I thought long and hard about before I started it) was to bring the WLYDO together to share the build of a unique vessel and to see what ideas showed up from the vast knowledge base on this forum.

 

It was also to promote the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding in our long term mission to offer excellent wooden boat-building training to both hobbyist and people seeking a career in boat building. We love support in any form to further our mission.

 

Tank in keel seems easy, it is not.

 

In keeping with the design brief of "simple" we moved the tank back to Bob's original position aft of the engine. Shorter fuel lines, no auxiliary fuel pump, don't need to run a long keel vent, don't need to run a long fill hose, etc.

 

Fuel tank 62 gallons, doubt it will be full very often (maybe if we decide to do the inside passage to Alaska and back.)

 

Space and weight for the abandoned holding tank left empty for now, original 50 gallons of water now split into two tanks port and starboard.

 

Are you going to have solid fin then, or hollow with <something> in it?

 

Empty

 

Although if you stick with SS, you could go with bone dry whites. Buy in bulk, age in the keel. Hand pump.

 

Sliver Cellars. I can see it now......

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Why does a daysailor need a 3 bladed prop? No more than two, should be required. I say go with a two bladed max-prop.

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I'm more curious why a daysailor would want such a large fuel tank - it seems that would just be a reservior for crud - while I like the water-vapor filter for the vent, there would still be the issue of moisture and contamination introduced when filling. One thought is to have a 'day tank' like some larger vessels do. You'd still install the main tank, but seal it off until needed for a passage, and run from a smaller ( 5 gallon ? ) tank that can be removed for cleaning if needed or filled from the main when that time comes. Dirty tanks are the bane of reliable powerplants.

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Why does a daysailor need a 3 bladed prop? No more than two, should be required. I say go with a two bladed max-prop.

 

Less vibration is one big plus of a 3 blade...aside from performance I don't see a 2 blade being preferred for many applications.

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Why does a daysailor need a 3 bladed prop? No more than two, should be required. I say go with a two bladed max-prop.

 

I think we will have to admit she will actually be a weekender along with being a daysailor.

 

I had a two blade Max on the Swede 55, worked great. Certainly a good option.

 

I'm more curious why a daysailor would want such a large fuel tank - it seems that would just be a reservior for crud - while I like the water-vapor filter for the vent, there would still be the issue of moisture and contamination introduced when filling. One thought is to have a 'day tank' like some larger vessels do. You'd still install the main tank, but seal it off until needed for a passage, and run from a smaller ( 5 gallon ? ) tank that can be removed for cleaning if needed or filled from the main when that time comes. Dirty tanks are the bane of reliable powerplants.

 

See comment about her actually being a weekender......

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When I did my prop testing we used a stopping test. As I recall it was 4 knots to a dead stop. We tried to be scientific but we were drinking beer. Three blade props had an advantage stopping the boat and accellerating.. Other than that we could not find a difference. I used a SPL meter to measure noise and hopefully with it vibration but the differences were insignifigant. But the beer was good. We ran the measured mile in the lee side of the bridge and checked boat speds at designated rpms. There were minor differences here. At full cruise rpm all the props drove the boat at hull speed. Basically the only differences we could deetact wer at slow speed, around the dock kind of situations. The 3 blade Max Prop was the clear winner there. But not by a lot.

 

In hinde site I think given such similar performance, prop choice probably, as many have suggested here, comes down to reliability, maintainence and service from the manufacturer.

 

One thing we did do was take a two blade Max prop and test it as set up by PYI. Then we de-pitched it one setting and tested it again. Then we up-pitched it one setting and tested again. In This test PYI had the pitch set optimally as the prop was delivered. We did this on Lake Union with Dwayne from Emerald City Divers sitting on the dock ready to make the adjustments between runs. Dwayne can do Max Props in the water, with his eyes closed.

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Hogue Sav Blac. Best white buy on the market. $5.99 at the QFC. Crisp and clean, no oak a great wine.

 

I'll get some tonight. Last day at work for a nice stretch. Some nice wine would be nice.

Taking the kids to the boat show Saturday. They love crawling over those boats. Except the Hinckley picnic boat. Those guys were in the words of my 8 year old, "asses!"

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Great Red:

Good idea. You can have yours just like that.

That's why they call them "custom boats".

 

Okay, I'l siddown and shaddup. Just thought 62 gallons was a BIG tank for someone not planning on passagemaking. What's average for a 50-foot racer, 10-15 gallons ? Perhaps weekending in the PNW is different from what I'm thinking of.

 

If you've seen as many ruined gastanks as I have ( in the old motorcycle genre ) you naturally view them with suspicion, is all. And I can't say how many old Trawlers I know of around here that are running auxilliary tanks because the originals are so hopelessly gunked that even after having professional 'fuel polishers' do their thing they still clog filters as soon as the tanks get shaken.

 

But I'm digging all this nonetheless & appreciating every look into it we are graced with. Mahalo.

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When I did my prop testing we used a stopping test. As I recall it was 4 knots to a dead stop. We tried to be scientific but we were drinking beer. Three blade props had an advantage stopping the boat and accellerating.. Other than that we could not find a difference. I used a SPL meter to measure noise and hopefully with it vibration but the differences were insignifigant. But the beer was good. We ran the measured mile in the lee side of the bridge and checked boat speds at designated rpms. There were minor differences here. At full cruise rpm all the props drove the boat at hull speed. Basically the only differences we could deetact wer at slow speed, around the dock kind of situations. The 3 blade Max Prop was the clear winner there. But not by a lot.

 

In hinde site I think given such similar performance, prop choice probably, as many have suggested here, comes down to reliability, maintainence and service from the manufacturer.

 

One thing we did do was take a two blade Max prop and test it as set up by PYI. Then we de-pitched it one setting and tested it again. Then we up-pitched it one setting and tested again. In This test PYI had the pitch set optimally as the prop was delivered. We did this on Lake Union with Dwayne from Emerald City Divers sitting on the dock ready to make the adjustments between runs. Dwayne can do Max Props in the water, with his eyes closed.

 

More data, on more props:

"The Ultimate Propeller Test"

 

Thu, 16 Apr 2009

Yachting Monthly

http://www.flexofold...Monthly_low.pdf

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Great Red:

Good idea. You can have yours just like that.

That's why they call them "custom boats".

 

Okay, I'l siddown and shaddup. Just thought 62 gallons was a BIG tank for someone not planning on passagemaking. What's average for a 50-foot racer, 10-15 gallons ? Perhaps weekending in the PNW is different from what I'm thinking of.

 

If you've seen as many ruined gastanks as I have ( in the old motorcycle genre ) you naturally view them with suspicion, is all. And I can't say how many old Trawlers I know of around here that are running auxilliary tanks because the originals are so hopelessly gunked that even after having professional 'fuel polishers' do their thing they still clog filters as soon as the tanks get shaken.

 

But I'm digging all this nonetheless & appreciating every look into it we are graced with. Mahalo.

Gunky fuel tanks are a problem in old boats. This will be a new boat, so it won't have that problem. ;)

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Great Red:

Good idea. You can have yours just like that.

That's why they call them "custom boats".

 

Okay, I'l siddown and shaddup. Just thought 62 gallons was a BIG tank for someone not planning on passagemaking. What's average for a 50-foot racer, 10-15 gallons ? Perhaps weekending in the PNW is different from what I'm thinking of.

 

If you've seen as many ruined gastanks as I have ( in the old motorcycle genre ) you naturally view them with suspicion, is all. And I can't say how many old Trawlers I know of around here that are running auxilliary tanks because the originals are so hopelessly gunked that even after having professional 'fuel polishers' do their thing they still clog filters as soon as the tanks get shaken.

 

But I'm digging all this nonetheless & appreciating every look into it we are graced with. Mahalo.

Gunky fuel tanks are a problem in old boats. This will be a new boat, so it won't have that problem. ;)

 

As built, this is a 100 + year boat. Kudos for those builders. I wonder how they'll clean tanks in the 22d Century.

 

Edit: Now that I think of it, I wonder what they'll think about Uncle Bruce in the 22d Century. We remember designers from a century or more ago. I suspect he'll still be around in his designs in another century. Haunting thought!

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In a hundred years Sliver will likely be powered electrically.

 

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Having already successfully had several Max Props they are a leading contender, the Flex-o-Fold is another strong possibility as is Gori.

 

I have time to check all the options out before I have to decide.

 

Kim, the Gori on S'agapo does work really well. My only complaint is the cost of the zincs - which Gori must believe are made from solid gold. I'm about to start casting my own. The 'overdrive' feature of the Gori is 'over-rated' and I've found it only occasionally useful. BV

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In a hundred years Sliver will likely be powered electrically.

 

New boats will be powered by quantum displacement generators. Electric will be so 21st Century. Sliver will be a treasured antique to be maintained and restored to the original condition. Conversion to electric would be apostacy. The Master's work must be preserved for it's annual celebration cruise.

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Having already successfully had several Max Props they are a leading contender, the Flex-o-Fold is another strong possibility as is Gori.

 

I have time to check all the options out before I have to decide.

 

Kim, the Gori on S'agapo does work really well. My only complaint is the cost of the zincs - which Gori must believe are made from solid gold. I'm about to start casting my own. The 'overdrive' feature of the Gori is 'over-rated' and I've found it only occasionally useful. BV

 

BV. Friend of mine with a Gori loved the overdrive. Of course, he took the ICW a few times and the flat, protected stretches were perfect for that feature.

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In a hundred years Sliver will likely be powered electrically.

 

 

+1

 

Do fuel cells get gunky?

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In a hundred years Sliver will likely be powered electrically.

 

New boats will be powered by quantum displacement generators. Electric will be so 21st Century. Sliver will be a treasured antique to be maintained and restored to the original condition. Conversion to electric would be apostacy. The Master's work must be preserved for it's annual celebration cruise.

 

Apart from the dough, I'm kind of wondering why she isn't powered electrically now, with a small auxiliary? If I had the money, I'd convert Amati. With the experience that I've seen around electric propulsion in northern Europe and England it seems to be maturing to the point of being unremarkable, putting aside repair facilities on the Salish Sea. Then there is the Makita Challange.....

 

Quantum displacement on an antique sailboat will challenge the concept of even having one. A bit like putting carbon spars on a Fife, or a Honda 200cc on a surry, however well done.

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In a hundred years Sliver will likely be powered electrically.

 

 

+1

 

Do fuel cells get gunky?

 

A mate works for a company that does fuel cells. they currently use more carbon to build than offset, but hey you gotta start somewhere.

 

Gunky? maybe but I think they blow up before they get gunky :blink:

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In a hundred years Sliver will likely be powered electrically.

 

New boats will be powered by quantum displacement generators.

 

Nah.

 

Mr-Fusion.jpg

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In a hundred years Sliver will likely be powered electrically.

 

 

+1

 

Do fuel cells get gunky?

 

A mate works for a company that does fuel cells. they currently use more carbon to build than offset, but hey you gotta start somewhere.

 

Gunky? maybe but I think they blow up before they get gunky :blink:

 

There was a quote in ?YW? the other day saying that the lifespan of a fuel cell is limited? Few thousand hours?

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The reason SIVER is not electric powered is simple. Simplicity. Reliability and weight would also enter into the decision.

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Having already successfully had several Max Props they are a leading contender, the Flex-o-Fold is another strong possibility as is Gori.

 

I have time to check all the options out before I have to decide.

 

Kim, the Gori on S'agapo does work really well. My only complaint is the cost of the zincs - which Gori must believe are made from solid gold. I'm about to start casting my own. The 'overdrive' feature of the Gori is 'over-rated' and I've found it only occasionally useful. BV

 

BV, the "overdrive" idea is all marketing, as you've discovered. It's just running in forward with the prop set up for reverse.

 

Edit: IB, I've used it motorsailing on flat water as that seems when it would be most useful. But at my level of ability I have a hard time appreciating the benefit.

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The reason SIVER is not electric powered is simple. Simplicity. Reliability and weight would also enter into the decision.

 

I have owned electric powered sailboats in the past. They still have challenges. Bob is spot on with his "simplicity" comment.

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From my amateur reading of the keel plans posted by Bob, the fin is going to be two sides with four webs in between, and four little quarter ribs on the leading edge. Is this right? And how on earth to they weld up something like this? Can't see how you gain access inside?

 

I'm probably missing something obvious

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From my amateur reading of the keel plans posted by Bob, the fin is going to be two sides with four webs in between, and four little quarter ribs on the leading edge. Is this right? And how on earth to they weld up something like this? Can't see how you gain access inside?

 

Isn't that what pop rivets and super glue are for?

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The reason SIVER is not electric powered is simple. Simplicity. Reliability and weight would also enter into the decision.

 

I have owned electric powered sailboats in the past. They still have challenges. Bob is spot on with his "simplicity" comment.

 

Really? Cool! What?

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I think we are not too far off, maybe a decade or so, where electric drives and their associated support systems, will be really viable for boat auxiliaries. It makes perfect sense that Sliver is going with a known drive system at this time.

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From my amateur reading of the keel plans posted by Bob, the fin is going to be two sides with four webs in between, and four little quarter ribs on the leading edge. Is this right? And how on earth to they weld up something like this? Can't see how you gain access inside?

 

I'm probably missing something obvious

 

When we had the big meeting Monday to settle everything the chief welder said "I guess we will have to use the really small welders on this project, but how will they get out of the fin after they are done....?" There was a lot of bantering back and forth as the fabricator and my engineer Tim both graduated from UofMich in their marine engineering program and it turns out they are friends.

 

Bob is correct we will be using 3 in 12 plug welds with 1/2" slots on 3/4" frames. We changed some details to make it easier for the welder at his suggestions and we are getting all of the pieces water jet cut so they fit accurately. Jim is doing the cut files.

 

Fascinating stuff, I am glad we are doing it here so I can participate. I am getting a strong education in yacht design/engineering/building with the project. The problem is with all of this fun I think I might want to build another one after this one is in the water.

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The reason SIVER is not electric powered is simple. Simplicity. Reliability and weight would also enter into the decision.

 

I have owned electric powered sailboats in the past. They still have challenges. Bob is spot on with his "simplicity" comment.

 

Really? Cool! What?

 

Biggest challenge is batteries......Lithium Ion is not yet ready for prime time (see Boeing 787). When they are and get economical them maybe it makes some sense.

 

I have also had a pure electric car. Soletria Force on the Chevy II platform. Fun car but same battery challenges.

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From my amateur reading of the keel plans posted by Bob, the fin is going to be two sides with four webs in between, and four little quarter ribs on the leading edge. Is this right? And how on earth to they weld up something like this? Can't see how you gain access inside?

 

I'm probably missing something obvious

 

When we had the big meeting Monday to settle everything the chief welder said "I guess we will have to use the really small welders on this project, but how will they get out of the fin after they are done....?" There was a lot of bantering back and forth as the fabricator and my engineer Tim both graduated from UofMich in their marine engineering program and it turns out they are friends.

 

Bob is correct we will be using 3 in 12 plug welds with 1/2" slots on 3/4" frames. We changed some details to make it easier for the welder at his suggestions and we are getting all of the pieces water jet cut so they fit accurately. Jim is doing the cut files.

 

Fascinating stuff, I am glad we are doing it here so I can participate. I am getting a strong education in yacht design/engineering/building with the project. The problem is with all of this fun I think I might want to build another one after this one is in the water.

 

:)

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Bob is correct we will be using 3 in 12 plug welds with 1/2" slots on 3/4" frames. We changed some details to make it easier for the welder at his suggestions and we are getting all of the pieces water jet cut so they fit accurately. Jim is doing the cut files.

 

Fascinating stuff, I am glad we are doing it here so I can participate. I am getting a strong education in yacht design/engineering/building with the project. The problem is with all of this fun I think I might want to build another one after this one is in the water.

 

Ah. Obvious now that you've told me...

 

Do you paint or otherwise treat the inside of the fin?

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Speaking of 100 years, and thinking about outboard motors and Amati jumping up and down to power his boat, I have somewhere at home a Scientific American article about a "tuna drive" developed with some military money I think. Basically someone had looked at how a tuna propels itself, especially from a standing start, and developed a flappy paddle outboard motor- just suitable for a test tank, but the first iteration was a world better than any prop- and it wouldn't snag or hurt anything either. There was complex gearing to turn rotary motion into back and forth (funny when you think of all the gearing and fiddly bits an internal combustion motor uses to turn back and forth into rotary motion) and the rubber covering was primitive, but the basic improvement in propulsion efficiency was enormous.

 

Google was not my friend when i tried to find it right now, but even the best props are not really very good.

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Here are renderings of a rudder I designed for a 200 ft boat. most of the welds are done normally with one side of the plate off. The closure plate has slots cut in it and is offered up to the rest of the rudder and they are welded together through the slots. That's plug welding. The perimeter is welded with standard fillet welds. There are threaded nipples (with flush socket head threaded plugs) welded to the top and bottom plates (not shown). The top plug is removed and paint or preservative oil is poured into the rudder or keel and the whole thing is rotated to flow coat the interior. The plugs are removed and excess paint is drained.

 

post-25831-0-48654500-1359656079_thumb.jpgpost-25831-0-16305900-1359656096_thumb.jpg

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Thank you Jose, I needed that clarification. It's all so clear to me now.

 

As for having as much fun building as sailing, I know a guy like that - but I suspect after sailing this one you'll want to just do more sailing.

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Here are renderings of a rudder I designed for a 200 ft boat. most of the welds are done normally with one side of the plate off. The closure plate has slots cut in it and is offered up to the rest of the rudder and they are welded together through the slots. That's plug welding. The perimeter is welded with standard fillet welds. There are threaded nipples (with flush socket head threaded plugs) welded to the top and bottom plates (not shown). The top plug is removed and paint or preservative oil is poured into the rudder or keel and the whole thing is rotated to flow coat the interior. The plugs are removed and excess paint is drained.

 

post-25831-0-48654500-1359656079_thumb.jpgpost-25831-0-16305900-1359656096_thumb.jpg

 

There is a special oil that "creeps" around everywhere when you put it inside a tank.

 

Thank you Jose, I needed that clarification. It's all so clear to me now.

 

As for having as much fun building as sailing, I know a guy like that - but I suspect after sailing this one you'll want to just do more sailing.

 

Or more sailing and more building. At the rate we are going I will be retired then and have the time for both.....

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