Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

[romaine 0]

Another one of those "Holy shit" moments with scale on this boat. The bulb mold is 9 3/4' long, giving a bulb length of 8-8.5' . That is a significant hunk of lead. I agree with Jose. Pity the rock.

 

You might want to pity the boat or the driver/navigator if that thing hits a rock at hull speed.

 

Question for the Maestro: Is this boat designed to withstand hitting something solid at 10 or 12 knots?

 

Romain

[familysailor 121]

Airbags...

[Innocent Bystander 842]

Just try to keep in mind that the fin has to support the big bulb. It's an "L" bulb so it';s a bit more challenging to support than the typical "T" bulb. But if we went with a "T" bulb we would have kelp to be worried about. Then you get into kelp cutters and the complexity of the keel increases.

 

I'm all for "L" bulbs and no kelp cutter. Not sure kelp cutters work on crab pots anyway.

[kimbottles 562]

Another one of those "Holy shit" moments with scale on this boat. The bulb mold is 9 3/4' long, giving a bulb length of 8-8.5' . That is a significant hunk of lead. I agree with Jose. Pity the rock.

 

You might want to pity the boat or the driver/navigator if that thing hits a rock at hull speed.

 

Question for the Maestro: Is this boat designed to withstand hitting something solid at 10 or 12 knots?

 

Romain

Another one of those "Holy shit" moments with scale on this boat. The bulb mold is 9 3/4' long, giving a bulb length of 8-8.5' . That is a significant hunk of lead. I agree with Jose. Pity the rock.

 

You might want to pity the boat or the driver/navigator if that thing hits a rock at hull speed.

 

Question for the Maestro: Is this boat designed to withstand hitting something solid at 10 or 12 knots?

 

Romain

 

Tim did the engineering on the fin and bulb and I swear he designed it for ice breaking, remember this fin bolts to the ss floors that bolt to the full length girders that are tabbed into all of the foam core composite bulkheads and berth fronts and berth flats all that are reinforced with solid glass in the stress areas and all of the bulkheads are tabbed into the deck. So one big giant box section distributes the keel loads throughout the entire center section of the vessel.

 

Given all that I still don't want to hit anything with the keel, but fortunately it is VERY deep where we sail, like often times more than 400 feet deep.

 

Kim

[wrxboy76 0]

Mr. Bottles, as a long-time lurker, I commend your initiative to build such a quality vessel. Mr. Perry, I commend your talent for designing such a work of art.

[Bob Perry 839]

thanks 76. My part was the easy part.

 

Don't, expect any boat can hit a house sized rock, like the ones we have, at 12 knots without doing some serious damage to the boat and some of the people on board.

Seriously Romaine, have you ever run into anything at 12 knots. Try it in your car.. There have to be reasonable limits for what you engineer for.

I have hit a rock at 6 knots on NIGHT RUNNER. We took a chunk of lead out of the fin but sustained no structural damage. It gets your attention. Speed squared, remember?

[Jose Carumba 3]

Another one of those "Holy shit" moments with scale on this boat. The bulb mold is 9 3/4' long, giving a bulb length of 8-8.5' . That is a significant hunk of lead. I agree with Jose. Pity the rock.

 

You might want to pity the boat or the driver/navigator if that thing hits a rock at hull speed.

 

Question for the Maestro: Is this boat designed to withstand hitting something solid at 10 or 12 knots?

 

Romain

Another one of those "Holy shit" moments with scale on this boat. The bulb mold is 9 3/4' long, giving a bulb length of 8-8.5' . That is a significant hunk of lead. I agree with Jose. Pity the rock.

 

You might want to pity the boat or the driver/navigator if that thing hits a rock at hull speed.

 

Question for the Maestro: Is this boat designed to withstand hitting something solid at 10 or 12 knots?

 

Romain

 

Tim did the engineering on the fin and bulb and I swear he designed it for ice breaking, remember this fin bolts to the ss floors that bolt to the full length girders that are tabbed into all of the foam core composite bulkheads and berth fronts and berth flats all that are reinforced with solid glass in the stress areas and all of the bulkheads are tabbed into the deck. So one big giant box section distributes the keel loads throughout the entire center section of the vessel.

 

Given all that I still don't want to hit anything with the keel, but fortunately it is VERY deep where we sail, like often times more than 400 feet deep.

 

Kim

 

But you still have to keep an eye out for those 0 grits.

[kimbottles 562]

Rest assured we will have a good depth sounder on this vessel due in part to her deep draft.

 

That is what this picture is all about, the transducer.

 

(When I commute across Puget Sound the VTS (Vessel Traffic System) keeps referring to "Deep Draft Vessels", as in "Deep Draft Vessel northbound at Alki, 15 knots for the pilot station." I wonder if they will call the Sliver vessel "Deep Draft".........? How deep do you have to draw to qualify as "Deep Draft"?)

[Amati 1,352]

We hit in Amati at about 2-3 k. A few thin cracks in the MASSIVE keel support structure (wood), but no water or any thing like that.

 

After the rescue, Canadian tow put us into the same rock at 5-6 k. Don't ask.... He did say 'that rock isn't supposed to be there'. The same rock we had just 'encountered', I might add.

 

Anyway, after that, had a tear in the forward salon bulkhead at the bottom, and bigger cracks in more of the support structure. No leaks. Motored from Sylva Bay to Sydney without a drop of water, and iirr more than a third of the keelson (is that what it's called? The long chunk of wood at the bottom of the hull) was still mostly intact, had to replace some of it and some athwartship members, I think all had the injured parts cut out and replaced. Keel had some chunks out of the nose, nicks on the side, and the stinger lost a few inches. I don't remember any keel bolts being broken or replaced, but I'd have to look that up. Maybe Bob remembers. Not bad for 2 strikes, escalating in speed. Oh, and when we hit the second time, we were tied securely to a 40ish MOTORBOAT (think workboat) so that adds up to maybe 30,000-40,000 lbs all together. I'll have to take a pic of the keel bolts. There is a theme here.

:)/>

[austin1972 627]

I got a gate pushed on my thumb last Thursday by a cow's ass going 4 mph. It took the top of my right thumb off without a problem.

[kimbottles 562]

I got a gate pushed on my thumb last Thursday by a cow's ass going 4 mph. It took the top of my right thumb off without a problem.

 

Ouch!! Sorry to hear about that Austin.

 

Our company has a couple of trucks good for much more than the weight of the ballast bulb.

I am friends with the tool manager (the retired Coast Guard Damage Control Chief), I bet he will let me borrow one for a couple hours.

[austin1972 627]

It's the lifting part of that keel that makes my back hurt. I'd want a crane!

[Bob Perry 839]

Austin:

Sorry about your thumb. Now you'll have to pick your nose with your left thumb. If you are a thumb picker.

[postpast 0]

Out of curiousity; what would the man hours on a project like this be? Even a very round figure: 10,000?

[Bob Perry 839]

Post:

I'm not sure but your guess is a bit high. Kim likes quality. As the yard showed Kim the quality they were capable of kim said, "Yummm, I like that." So they upped the bar abit. Kim said, "I like that." And now we have a situation where every detail of the boat is being done is being done by guys in clean white coats and phd's, figuratively. The guys at the yard are taking advantage of the fact that Kim wants the very best work he can get. This is probably a fucntion of the "school"aspect. A yard like Westerly in Cosa Mesa would not have fallen into this trap. Their approach would have been, "This is the way we do it. How do you like it?" Kim would have said, "It's fine with me."

 

But now the Sliver project is in a world where everyone involved is trying to make it the best representation of their own work. It slows the project down and it costs money. But in the end Kim will be able to sit back on the port,,,no starboard settee, look around and think to himself, "It doesn't get any better than this." And his greatest satisfaction will come from knowing that this is the boat his boys will inherit. To a Dad, that is heaven.

[kimbottles 562]

Post:

I'm not sure but your guess is a bit high. Kim likes quality. As the yard showed Kim the quality they were capable of kim said, "Yummm, I like that." So they upped the bar abit. Kim said, "I like that." And now we have a situation where every detail of the boat is being done is being done by guys in clean white coats and phd's, figuratively. The guys at the yard are taking advantage of the fact that Kim wants the very best work he can get. This is probably a fucntion of the "school"aspect. A yard like Westerly in Cosa Mesa would not have fallen into this trap. Their approach would have been, "This is the way we do it. How do you like it?" Kim would have said, "It's fine with me."

 

But now the Sliver project is in a world where everyone involved is trying to make it the best representation of their own work. It slows the project down and it costs money. But in the end Kim will be able to sit back on the port,,,no starboard settee, look around and think to himself, "It doesn't get any better than this." And his greatest satisfaction will come from knowing that this is the boat his boys will inherit. To a Dad, that is heaven.

 

We have a record of the hours the paid crew has spent, but no record of the student hours (but we can make a reasonably educated guess of the student hours) just don't know how much to discount the student hours for the learning function of the school. That all said we have detailed records of the project but I am afraid to look at them in total. Maybe someday.

 

Engine goes in tomorrow or Thursday, then the deck fitting starts. That will take a week or so until the heavy tabbing begins. Don't know how long the tabbing will take. Most likely several weeks.

 

Someday this year Bob and I will be having a wee dram of single malt together and will enjoy what we have created.

[jwaldron 0]

Jax:

I am a Viking. I never put my drink down.

But there has to be a place for the next one.

[Bob Perry 839]

Wee fucking dram?

 

I hope I am holding the bottle.

[jwaldron 0]

[snip]

And his greatest satisfaction will come from knowing that this is the boat his boys will inherit. To a Dad, that is heaven.

A very generous thought, Bob.

[Jose Carumba 3]

[snip]

And his greatest satisfaction will come from knowing that this is the boat his boys will inherit. To a Dad, that is heaven.

A very generous thought, Bob.

 

Amen.

[WunHungLo 26]

Bob and Kim, do you think that the "L" bulb will torque the keel slightly when heeled, giving it even more lift?

[Bryanjb 130]

The keel structure shows the size of the boat. Wow!

Will it be sealed and pressure tested?

 

Regarding grounding at speed. That boat will easily sail in the low teens, that's a pretty big "don't fuck up" factor. When in doubt, motor in at 6 knots or less?

[Zonker 2,426]

Normal practice for steel fins and rudders is to have a wider piece of flat bar welded to the webs so the slots don't have to be perfectly located i.e. miss the webs. Are you that confident the rolled cut parts will fit perfectly?

 

And. +1 to the idea of fill and drain plugs in s.s. and preservative oil in them. Very good idea.

 

I have an Australian Autostream - like a Max prop but easier to adjust pitch in water. Not very efficient for motoring due to flat blades with no twist but good for low drag. You feel the boat speed up when you put it into reverse and lock the shaft and the blades feather.

 

I think flex O fold does well in tests when they get the pitch exactly right. Twisted blades are more efficient. Just get the chance to get different set of blades if first set isn't quite right

[Polytelum Tom 1,465]

Just try to keep in mind that the fin has to support the big bulb. It's an "L" bulb so it';s a bit more challenging to support than the typical "T" bulb. But if we went with a "T" bulb we would have kelp to be worried about. Then you get into kelp cutters and the complexity of the keel increases.

 

If you are not worried about kelp, is a T a better shape or is it typical because it is easier to support?

[austin1972 627]

Austin:

Sorry about your thumb. Now you'll have to pick your nose with your left thumb. If you are a thumb picker.

 

I'm left handed, so I'll be fine Bob.

[kimbottles 562]

Bob and Kim, do you think that the "L" bulb will torque the keel slightly when heeled, giving it even more lift?

 

Don't know Hung but the structure seems SO STOUT when standing next to it, and with the side plates installed it will be even stiffer so I kind of doubt it will distort much if any under heel, but I guess it would not take much torquing to make a difference in lift.

 

Interesting question which I will put to Tim Nolan our engineering wizard.

[kimbottles 562]

The keel structure shows the size of the boat. Wow!

Will it be sealed and pressure tested?

 

Regarding grounding at speed. That boat will easily sail in the low teens, that's a pretty big "don't fuck up" factor. When in doubt, motor in at 6 knots or less?

 

Yes, the guys at Pacific Fishermen explained how they pressure test and make sure there is limited moisture inside the fin before they seal her up, they also will install a plug so interior access can be had if for some reason it becomes necessary later on in the vessel's life. We did not have to coach them on any of the little details, they were all over everything long before it came up in our planning meetings. They are really professional and a delightful find that we owe to Scott at CSR Marine who suggested them.

 

How about motoring at 3 or 4 knots into unknown anchorages, or I bet she will sail gently under main alone if we pinch her a bit. I could sail the Swede 55 under main alone upwind with lots of speed control in 30+ knots of breeze by pinching my way into tight spots. But care will be taken with that much draft.

[Tucky 27]

 

How about motoring at 3 or 4 knots into unknown anchorages, or I bet she will sail gently under main alone if we pinch her a bit. I could sail the Swede 55 under main alone upwind with lots of speed control in 30+ knots of breeze by pinching my way into tight spots. But care will be taken with that much draft.

 

Ahhh, so wanking it is.

[Bryanjb 130]

Thanks Tuck, your comment gave me a good laugh.

[kimbottles 562]

Normal practice for steel fins and rudders is to have a wider piece of flat bar welded to the webs so the slots don't have to be perfectly located i.e. miss the webs. Are you that confident the rolled cut parts will fit perfectly?

 

And. +1 to the idea of fill and drain plugs in s.s. and preservative oil in them. Very good idea.

 

I have an Australian Autostream - like a Max prop but easier to adjust pitch in water. Not very efficient for motoring due to flat blades with no twist but good for low drag. You feel the boat speed up when you put it into reverse and lock the shaft and the blades feather.

 

I think flex O fold does well in tests when they get the pitch exactly right. Twisted blades are more efficient. Just get the chance to get different set of blades if first set isn't quite right

 

Well everything was computer designed by a very experienced computer lofting expert and water-jet cut but some fancy machinery. So I guess we will see how well it all fits together in the next day or so. I will try and visit the shop tomorrow and see if we have any updated pictures. I believe the side plate forming will be done by the end of this week. We are not in a rush as the lead pour is still a couple weeks off, so we have some time. BTW, the water-jet cuts are very precise. The master boilermaker (Dave) looked me in the eye with a straight face and tried to tell me he hand cut them by eye. We both got a pretty good laugh on that one.

[kimbottles 562]

How about motoring at 3 or 4 knots into unknown anchorages, or I bet she will sail gently under main alone if we pinch her a bit. I could sail the Swede 55 under main alone upwind with lots of speed control in 30+ knots of breeze by pinching my way into tight spots. But care will be taken with that much draft.

 

Ahhh, so wanking it is.

 

I have been known to wank under certain windy situations.

 

In order to be able to say I once sailed to work I woke up one morning to a stiff 30 knot southerly and sailed the Swede 55 across for my morning commute, I simply unfurled the jib and made about 8 knots easterly across Puget Sound. Of course to was dead calm that afternoon so I had to motor back home later on. I share a 60' slip with Elliott Bay Yacht Sales in Elliott Bay Marina and I knew their half was empty that day so had plenty of room for the Swede.

 

(That slip is not particularity deep so I will have to check the tide tables carefully before I sail the Sliver to work.)

[Amati 1,352]

It's mud there, no?

[kimbottles 562]

It's mud there, no?

 

Yeah, soft so not much of a problem as long as we don't lose too much water, but I think it can be 5 feet or so at super low and don't want the hull suspended five feet above the waterline!

[Amati 1,352]

Drawing 8', we have reluctantly come to grips with mud in suspension. Usually 2-4'. More of a statistical event. Fuzzy mud.

 

Swantown Marina comes to mind...

[floating dutchman 70]

Hey, I figured out what the holes in the bulkhead are for!

 

Storage cubbyhole! for this:

 

 

Kimb, you are building a seriously good boat here, Your grand-kids grand-kids are going to love you for it.

[Slick470 130]

Drawing 8', we have reluctantly come to grips with mud in suspension. Usually 2-4'. More of a statistical event. Fuzzy mud.

 

Swantown Marina comes to mind...

 

"mud in suspension" sounds like most of the Chesapeake Bay... specifically my slip. We only Draw 5.5, but at low-low tide we're in the mud in the slip and in the channel getting out and we push through it to get anywhere.

[boomer 402]

[romaine 0]

 

Geez! You'd think they'd pay the guy installing the engine enough to afford shoes.

 

Romain

[familysailor 121]

Those are OSHA approved steel toed socks.........

[kimbottles 562]

The entire crew leaves their shoes on the floor before they climb into the boat. Heck, they make me leave my shoes behind too, not that I won't anyway.....

[Great Red Shark 379]

It's SO WHITE ! LIke the Clean Room in Willy Wonka. "I'll have a Fizzy Lifting drink, please."

[Bob Perry 839]

Great:

We don't call that white.

We call that clean.

 

We'll get some taggers from the hood down to decorate when it's done.

[ewalker 1]

Kim and Bob,

What are you going to treat the keel with? Are you going to hot dip galvinize it so it will be protected inside and out? When I was a welder/fabricator we had steel copper flame sprayed for look but if you copper flame sprayed or copper plated your keel you would never need to paint it:)

[kimbottles 562]

Kim and Bob,

What are you going to treat the keel with? Are you going to hot dip galvinize it so it will be protected inside and out? When I was a welder/fabricator we had steel copper flame sprayed for look but if you copper flame sprayed or copper plated your keel you would never need to paint it:)

 

Evan, I am not sure mixing different metals in salt water is the best idea, we intend to sheath the entire assembly in epoxy. There are several other options we will take a look at before we commit but it likely will not be too exotic.

 

We will need a good base for the anti foul, the water is very clean in Blakely Harbor and underwater growth is a big problem so we need good bottom paint.

 

BTW, Evan's dad is a master furniture maker and has asked to do the tiller, given we own several pieces of his wonderful furniture I expect we will take him up on that option.

[Bob Perry 839]

ewalker:

You are new here. We have rules.

You expect to walk right in and just ask any question you like?

 

This place has gone to the dogs.

[ewalker 1]

I am not sure the corrosion issues associated with mixing copper and steel. I have always though it would be cool to have a copper bottom boat. i was also wondering about keeping the inside of the fin from rusting. You were talking about evacuating moisture before sealing it up but if there are plugs whenever you remove the plug for inspection then some moisture will get in.

 

on the tiller note, I am sure you would be happy with a William Walker tiller. Are you going to go traditional with an ash layup?

 

ewalker:

You are new here. We have rules.

You expect to walk right in and just ask any question you like?

 

This place has gone to the dogs.

 

sorry...

[familysailor 121]

I still think filling the fin with rum is the best solution..............

I have never gotten rusty when filled with rum.

[Amati 1,352]

Actually you did, but you didn't care.

 

Anybody know where a boy can score some Lamb's Rum in the NW corner of the US of A?

[kimbottles 562]

 

on the tiller note, I am sure you would be happy with a William Walker tiller. Are you going to go traditional with an ash layup?

 

 

 

How the heck would I know? Your dad never tells me anything in advance!

[blackjenner 11]

I am not sure the corrosion issues associated with mixing copper and steel. I have always though it would be cool to have a copper bottom boat. i was also wondering about keeping the inside of the fin from rusting. You were talking about evacuating moisture before sealing it up but if there are plugs whenever you remove the plug for inspection then some moisture will get in.

 

on the tiller note, I am sure you would be happy with a William Walker tiller. Are you going to go traditional with an ash layup?

 

ewalker:

You are new here. We have rules.

You expect to walk right in and just ask any question you like?

 

This place has gone to the dogs.

 

sorry...

 

You "meant no offense"?

 

Just pullin your halyard.

 

Welcome.

[kimbottles 562]

The Sliver's keel fin is being built in a fabrication shop that is open on the ends and this is what I see when I turn around:

 

Not your normal "yacht" shop!

 

(somehow it all seems right given Frank once was a commercial fisherman.)

[Jose Carumba 3]

The Sliver's keel fin is being built in a fabrication shop that is open on the ends and this is what I see when I turn around:

 

Not your normal "yacht" shop!

 

(somehow it all seems right given Frank once was a commercial fisherman.)

 

Good place.

[Presuming Ed 188]

What foil section? And how are they bending the side plates to the foil section?

[kimbottles 562]

What foil section? And how are they bending the side plates to the foil section?

 

I am afraid the "what foil section" answer will have to come from the Maestro. (NACA something or other...)

 

The side plates are being "bumped" and "rolled" using some really big ass tools that I will try and photo next time I visit.

It is a wonderful combination of finesse and brute force. I am so glad I ended up doing the keel locally, otherwise I would have missed out on learning all of this new stuff.

 

Like I say, these guys are true master craftsmen. I visited this morning and really enjoy the conversation I had with Dave. Really great guy and a true master craftsman.

 

In this age of computer controlled everything, it is interesting to watch Dave make some templates from Jim's drawings and then to see how he sets everything up to be plumb and true and how he avoids letting the heat of the welding distort the shape.

 

I am somewhat of a minor expert in finance and accounting, but I can not match the physical skill set of Dave. I wish I could produce something with my hands and eye like he does.

[Tucky 27]

 

I am somewhat of a minor expert in finance and accounting, but I can not match the physical skill set of Dave. I wish I could produce something with my hands and eye like he does.

 

I mean this sincerely- no offense intended. When you write the check to pay his bill, that is the result of your fine work and skill. I bet there are times when he thinks "I just wish sometime I could make money like Kim". Hopefully at the end of the day you both are quietly proud.

 

Now go out there and cut, bang or saw something . If it ends up in the ugly boat thread, that is fine too.

 

I mean it.

[Bob Perry 839]

64 series foil.Modified. I used this foil for years. It was also Laurie Davidson's favorite keel foil.

I'll let you guess at the thickness ratio. Don't want to give all my secrets away.

[Trevor B 70]

12.5%, as a swag.

[Amati 1,352]

Hey Viktor!

 

Amati's just sitting there!

 

Tape measure time!

[Bob Perry 839]

Trevor:

No. But not a bad guess.

[kimbottles 562]

Trevor:

No. But not a bad guess.

 

At some point Bob told me, but I don't remember now!

[viktor 19]

Hey Viktor!

 

Amati's just sitting there!

 

Tape measure time!

 

Be glad to ,just let me know what measure

[Bryanjb 130]

According to my son, he needs the last two numbers of the code. It's measured in percent of chord..

[viktor 19]

Hey Viktor!

 

Amati's just sitting there!

 

Tape measure time!

 

Be glad to ,just let me know what measure

 

Upon further review,I'm kinda busy right now.Sorry

 

http://www.j105.org/...nstructions.pdf

[Bob Perry 839]

Joli:

Exactly. Your son is correct. But I'm not willing to give those last two numbers. If he had those numbers he'd probably notice I said a "modified" 64 series. Then he'd want to know how it was modified and why. Some of my secrets will remain secrets. I don't see any point in giving away things that have taken me years to figure out. I do enough "educating".

 

I often ask the same questions when I am doing a SAILING review of a new high performance boat. I call the designer with a list of technical questions fully aware that the aswers I get, if I get any at all, will be approximates.

[Amati 1,352]

Hey Viktor!

 

Amati's just sitting there!

 

Tape measure time!

 

Be glad to ,just let me know what measure :mellow:/>

 

Upon further review,I'm kinda busy right now.Sorry :D/>

 

http://www.j105.org/...nstructions.pdf

 

[Bryanjb 130]

Bob, one of the drivers for my son to study aerospace engineering was sailing. The theory of foils, flow and lift were intruiging to him. You would like him he's a good kid who loves sailing.

[Bob Perry 839]

Joil:

I'm sure I would and no doubt he knows far more about foils than I ever will. But I have designed a lot of boats and have found a comfort level witgh a variety of foils through my experience with them. It's really not the kind of information that would work in a textbook format. It is clear that the AC design groups are still struggling with managing their foils and think of the time and money they have put into it. If it was simply a case of "turn to page 73" it would be easy.

 

I can remember sitting in my 747 ( not really mine) at Narita airport one day and looking down the row of jets parked at the temininal. I was struck by the variety of leading edge angles on the tails of the various jets.

I thought to myself, "Someone is guessing."

[Bob Perry 839]

Joli:

Seeing it's your son, I have a soft spot for sons, you can read my PM and I'd be happy to let him in on my secrets.

[Bryanjb 130]

Thank you Bob.

[Trevor B 70]

The usual "modification" to the 64 series is to bridge the hollows in the trailing edge. It doesn't seem to make much, if any, difference to performance and it is a TON easier to shape accurately. And it makes the trailing edge stronger.

[Amati 1,352]

One of the fluid dynamics guys for Prada told me there's no reason to have anything but a straight line to the aft edge rather than a reflex curve for good pressure recovery...

[Amati 1,352]

And as long as I'm at it, I may as well include this, just because it makes me laugh, and Bob and Trevor might dig it...

 

http://www.modelresearchlabs.com/hand_launch_glider_airfoils.htm

 

 

[Trevor B 70]

And as long as I'm at it, I may as well include this, just because it makes me laugh, and Bob and Trevor might dig it...

 

http://www.modelresearchlabs.com/hand_launch_glider_airfoils.htm

 

:)/>

Radical foil shapes, that is fer sure.

[Bob Perry 839]

Trevor:

Yeah, I think you got it.

 

Paul:

I'd really like some pressure recovery. Is there a formula I could use?

 

Paul always makes me smile and often laugh. Paul was a great friend of Spike.

Any friend of Spike's is a friend of mine.

 

Hold on, Spike liked everyone.

[Rasputin22 2,564]

Joil:

I'm sure I would and no doubt he knows far more about foils than I ever will. But I have designed a lot of boats and have found a comfort level witgh a variety of foils through my experience with them. It's really not the kind of information that would work in a textbook format. It is clear that the AC design groups are still struggling with managing their foils and think of the time and money they have put into it. If it was simply a case of "turn to page 73" it would be easy.

 

I can remember sitting in my 747 ( not really mine) at Narita airport one day and looking down the row of jets parked at the temininal. I was struck by the variety of leading edge angles on the tails of the various jets.

I thought to myself, "Someone is guessing."

 

Bob,

 

The more projects I get involved in and talk to the principals about their foils and where they are getting their profiles and what their goals and requirements are, the more I have to agree with your comment that "Someone is guessing."

 

I asked for a dxf of the foil profile that many hours had been spent in the manufacture and field testing of the results of that foil and was very surprised that the foil profile was essentially crap!

[Bob Perry 839]

Crap? Rasper you are hitting on a very raw nerve.

Crap you tell me?

 

I have been surrounded bu guys through out my career always thought they had the"answer"

The typical approach was, "Without my techical know how, you will be dead in the water."

I had many guys who worked for me who thought, "Without me you will be dead in the water."

 

Bottom line is, I don' remember some of those guy's names. Literally. You, sure as shit, have never heard of them.

 

I'm not a technical kind of guy. I'm a seat of the pants kind of guy.

This doesn't mean I am not aware of the technical components in what I do.

It just mneans that if I am to stay ahead I am not going to find the answer on page 23.

The seat of my pants has to be well ahead of the crowd.

 

Think of that word, "published". That probably means at least a two year's gap between when the technology was written down and when it was published.

Oops you are out of date mother fucker.

 

But that's the way most of the world works.

Note here.

Not in my office.

I get an idea. I Gary Mull it over.

I talk to my dogs about it.

I decide that given the fact that I am no genius there is no way of knowing if I am right or wrong.

In a serious voice, "You're no genius Bob."

 

I say to myself, "If the answer were that simple they would write it in a fancy technical book and we would all go with it."

But it isn't that simple. Not yet.

 

Then I think to myself, "Ok, you're not a genius but you are no dummy. And...you have been thinking about this shit since you were 14 years old. You have to know something by now."

"You have to."

Then I have a quick sit down with my dogs and if they are in agreement I go with it.

 

Actually, the dogs are not much help. They are always in agreement.

I always have a pocket full of dog treats.

[boomer 402]

That!.....is a classic read!

 

Shot across the bay from the NWSWB this week with various lenses.

 

 

My daughter took this looking the other way....taken later in the afternoon above the Jeff Hammond Boat Shed.

 

[Bob Perry 839]

Well, maybe. But I should tell you there were some guys who worked with me who were really good. Really smart:

 

Gary Grant: you have probably never heard of him. If I could think it, Gary could draw it. He was the best draftsman I have ever known.

 

Paul Bieker: what can I say. Paul is an amazing designer who knew that if he stayed with me he would always be second man. He knew he was capable of being more. He is.

 

Tim Kernan: Tim was good friend and always had his own vision of what a boat should be. We stay in touch.

 

Mark Mills: Mark was not much of a draftsman but he had the eye and the ability to see the whole boat. And, he was a fun guy to be around.

 

I remain friends with these guys. I admire what they have done on their own and I am thankful for their contributions to what you would call a "Perry design."

 

I have been very lucky to have had such help over the years. I did not do it all by myself.

 

There were lots of other guys. Paul Fredrickson comes to mind. "Cleat" we called him. If you gave him a line it was cleated.

Not sure where the others have gone. Most were a bit bitter when they left me despite tha fact that I paid the best wages in the business and always treated them the way I would have liked to have been treated.

Sometimes. many times, they took home more pay than I did.

Often there is no getting around the "labor/management" dischord.

[boomer 402]

Quite enlightening Bob....probably some interesting discussions with those of such aspirations.

 

Had to check out the Community Boat Projects above the Jeff Hammond Boat Shop. One of the projects is the restoration of Felicity Ann. Penelope Partridge is lead on this project with a gang of girl shipwrights and a few volunteers from the community. A few shots of Penelope and her gang on the task.

 

 

 

 

 

[Daimond 5]

The usual "modification" to the 64 series is to bridge the hollows in the trailing edge. It doesn't seem to make much, if any, difference to performance and it is a TON easier to shape accurately. And it makes the trailing edge stronger.

 

Maybe he increased the leading edge radius a hair too.

[Bob Perry 839]

Monster:

No I didn't. I did fill in the hollow.

 

Boomer:

Great photos. Love the one of the gal bending over the work bench. That's classic.

[boomer 402]

Thanks Bob. This Sid Skiff is almost done. Her planking is Red Cedar over steam-bent White Oak frames, copper fastened.

 

Boat story- Sid Foster was the harbormaster of Richardson's Bay at Sausalito, California in the 1960s. A British expatriate experienced with small boats, Sid sailed and sculled along the 3-mile harbor and bay in a classic lapstrake skiff. While checking out the boats moored or at anchor, people often admired his boat. Ray Speck, a Sausalito/Port Townsend boatbuilder, and an instructor at the school, got permission to make replicas. Speck took the lines off of Sid's boat, which was about 12½ feet, and built a series of similar designs up to 16 feet in length.

 

[kimbottles 562]

Ray Speck is a highly respected boat builder, who fills in at the School from time to time.

[Tucky 27]

As an aside on the "Felicity Ann". Ann Davison made the first oceanic single handed voyage mentioned in the video- if you read her book you get the impression she baked pies all the way across after ironing the napkins.

 

Her previous book "Last Voyage" is one of the most harrowing books I've ever read. The story of her and her husband and a boat in post WW2 England. No pies and no napkins, but some real nuts.

[Anomaly2 73]

This doesn't mean I am not aware of the technical components in what I do.

It just mneans that if I am to stay ahead I am not going to find the answer on page 23.

 

Bob, of COURSE the answer is not on page 23. Get with the times. Everything is bigger/longer now. The answer is on page 31 now. I know. I just looked it up.

 

And as for the "labor/management discord" you spoke of..... I've been meaning to talk to you about this but haven't found the right words: your dogs asked me to talk to you about it..... (of course the day I was there, I think you ran out of treats from your pricket. they've probably forgotten all about it)

[boomer 402]

Ray Speck is a highly respected boat builder, who fills in at the School from time to time.

 

Yes he is! I should have said part time instructor.

 

The student on the right moved the sawhorse out of the way so we could get a shot of the Sid SKiff's transom. Before shooting the transom, made sure we got a shot of the student. This student from Japan first discovered the NWSWBB website when he was eight years old . He knew the only way he was going to be able to attend the school, was start saving his money then. I like seeing a passion for wooden boatbuilding like that!

 

[Bob Perry 839]

Beautiful photo Dick. You have the eye.

[paps49 371]

That!.....is a classic read!

 

Shot across the bay from the NWSWB this week with various lenses.

 

 

My daughter took this looking the other way....taken later in the afternoon above the Jeff Hammond Boat Shed.

 

 

 

Boomer I cant resist, how many lenses can you use in one pic?

 

 

Monster:

No I didn't. I did fill in the hollow.

 

Boomer:

Great photos. Love the one of the gal bending over the work bench. That's classic.

 

Bob, I'm not sure you should have put that down in print, available internationally.

[paps49 371]

Its amazing how much rum you can legally bring back from the Caymans. But you all probably guessed that already.

[boomer 402]

Bob- Thanks....Images like that make up for the not so good ones, and make the bad ones look like the rejects they are...my daughter should be here in about 15 minutes, we're headed up for a sunrise shoot this morning. Later this week we'll be going up for a sunset and evening shoot.<