kimbottles

Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

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Meanwhile the crew is getting somewhat goofy........epoxy flumes??

 

naw, that's the paint. you should see us at about 4pm!

 

We're going to set the deck down tomorrow for some preliminary work before gluing it to the shelf later this week...this photo set is probably the last you'll see of the inside without the deck on. We'll drill holes about 2" inboard of the sheer through the deck and into the wooden shelf, about every 10" - we'll use oiled (so we can remove them later) deck screws through 2"x2"x3/4" plywood "washers" to clamp the deck to the hull during the glue-up. Also on the list is to cut a hole for the companionway and to put something in place of the large hole in the forward cockpit above the engine.

 

If we slip you an extra twenty bucks, will you cut the companionway just a leetle bit off center?

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Meanwhile the crew is getting somewhat goofy........epoxy flumes??

 

naw, that's the paint. you should see us at about 4pm!

 

We're going to set the deck down tomorrow for some preliminary work before gluing it to the shelf later this week...this photo set is probably the last you'll see of the inside without the deck on. We'll drill holes about 2" inboard of the sheer through the deck and into the wooden shelf, about every 10" - we'll use oiled (so we can remove them later) deck screws through 2"x2"x3/4" plywood "washers" to clamp the deck to the hull during the glue-up. Also on the list is to cut a hole for the companionway and to put something in place of the large hole in the forward cockpit above the engine.

 

If we slip you an extra twenty bucks, will you cut the companionway just a leetle bit off center?

I'll chuck in another 20 into that, Just make sure the offset is to starboard. Don't want to endanger Kim, just have some fun. :lol:

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And as long as I'm at it, I may as well include this, just because it makes me laugh, and Bob and Trevor might dig it...

 

http://www.modelrese...er_airfoils.htm

 

:)/>

 

I can remember sitting in my 747 ( not really mine) at Narita airport one day and looking down the row of jets parked at the temininal. I was struck by the variety of leading edge angles on the tails of the various jets.

I thought to myself, "Someone is guessing."

The more projects I get involved in and talk to the principals about their foils and where they are getting their profiles and what their goals and requirements are, the more I have to agree with your comment that "Someone is guessing."

 

I asked for a dxf of the foil profile that many hours had been spent in the manufacture and field testing of the results of that foil and was very surprised that the foil profile was essentially crap!

 

I built a lot of model airplanes as a teenager. The foils didn't matter. But I thought that was just my models, with their crazy power-to-weights, and big airfoils are different, etc etc. For sure those phd NACA-types know crazy stuff about foils.

 

Maybe not.

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Don't underestimate the power of guessing. I guess all the time. When I am going to do a calculation I always start off with a guess. I know my guess is going to be damn close but I need the guess as a reference to make sure my calculation is on the mark. I trust my guess. Over time this allows the designer to refine and hone his ability to guess. The human brain can process a lot of complex information.

 

I can't imagine designing without guessing at things. How could you posibly be innovative and original if you relied on "page 121" for the answer. If it's in a book and the book is published it's old news. The design elements I guess at today might end up on "page 123" in two years. The designer who uses that information will be at least two years behind me.

 

The grey whales are back at the shack. I saw two, maybe three yesterday while walking the dogs. They don't always all surface at once so it can be hard to count. I'd guess there were two.

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And here are the slots to allow the second plate to be welded onto the frame......

 

post-8115-0-71740200-1362504712_thumb.jpg

 

The plates are formed to be very close to the final shape and then Dave "persuades" them onto the frame to be as Bob designed them. The shape at the top is not linear down the fin to the bottom so Jim created about 5 templates for use in making sure the plates were close before they were attached to the frame.

 

post-8115-0-42090400-1362504735_thumb.jpg

post-8115-0-27144200-1362504927_thumb.jpg

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I'll tell you a funny story:

When I was a kid, probably 15 years old, I designed a 32' double ender. I called it BUDDY after the fellow who really got me involved with racing, Bud Stantorf.

I drew a nice set of hull lines, pretty fair for a kid without very good gear. I needed to caclulate the diplacement. I guessed around 10,000 lbs.. I did not own a Planimeter yet, too expensive. So I used the old count the squares method with a grid drawn on some tracing paper. I diligently counted the squares and came up with areas for each section. I plugged my sectional areas into the formula for Simpson's Multipliers in order to get the displacement.

 

I was never a math whizz and theoretical math problems were always hard for me. Same today. But now I see boat numbers in my head as tangeable elements not just numbers. Back when I was a kid this skill was not well developed.

So after sweating over the calculation, no doubt done all by hand, calculators didn't exist and I don't think I would have used a slide rule yet, I got my answer.

 

28,000 lbs.! Shistki!

I knew that was wrong. Really wrong. I went over and over my calculations but I could not find the error. I truly did sweat. I took my failings very personally. "Shitski, I AM just like Uncle Mick!"

Then a bolt of lightening hit. I had measured the area of each station accurately but I had measured the area of the entire station up to the sheer. STUPID! Kind of like the boat was sunk to the gunwhale. I obvioulsy should only have measured the sectional area BELOW the DWL. I was a kid. But I had my guess to check me and my guess proved correct. I can't remember how close it was. But it did indicate a problem with the calculation.

 

There is a part two to this story but I'm not even sure why I told you part one. I just remember that day very clearly.

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I'll tell you a funny story:

When I was a kid, probably 15 years old, I designed a 32' double ender. I called it BUDDY after the fellow who really got me involved with racing, Bud Stantorf.

I drew a nice set of hull lines, pretty fair for a kid without very good gear. I needed to caclulate the diplacement. I guessed around 10,000 lbs.. I did not own a Planimeter yet, too expensive. So I used the old count the squares method with a grid drawn on some tracing paper. I diligently counted the squares and came up with areas for each section. I plugged my sectional areas into the formula for Simpson's Multipliers in order to get the displacement.

 

I was never a math whizz and theoretical math problems were always hard for me. Same today. But now I see boat numbers in my head as tangeable elements not just numbers. Back when I was a kid this skill was not well developed.

So after sweating over the calculation, no doubt done all by hand, calculators didn't exist and I don't think I would have used a slide rule yet, I got my answer.

 

28,000 lbs.! Shistki!

I knew that was wrong. Really wrong. I went over and over my calculations but I could not find the error. I truly did sweat. I took my failings very personally. "Shitski, I AM just like Uncle Mick!"

Then a bolt of lightening hit. I had measured the area of each station accurately but I had measured the area of the entire station up to the sheer. STUPID! Kind of like the boat was sunk to the gunwhale. I obvioulsy should only have measured the sectional area BELOW the DWL. I was a kid. But I had my guess to check me and my guess proved correct. I can't remember how close it was. But it did indicate a problem with the calculation.

 

There is a part two to this story but I'm not even sure why I told you part one. I just remember that day very clearly.

 

I see a lot of young engineers who believe firmly that their calculators and equations are totally accurate to 6 decimal places and can't believe someone can take a quick look and say "bullshit" to one of their answers. The ability to make an educated guess demonstrates a mastery of the concept while a 6 decimal point solution only demonstrates the ability to plug and chug numbers in an equation.

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Silly me, I was worried that someone who was not specifically in the keel building business would not understand the necessity of having the shape be exactly (or really darn close to exactly) as Bob designed it. Turns out Dave is very exacting in his work (work in which he takes great pride.) He explains to me every time I visit how he goes about making sure everything he does matches Jim's CAD drawings of Bob's design. He has all sorts of little tricks he had learned over the 34 years he has done this kind of work. I don't think we could have found a better solution for getting the fin fabricated. And he is local too so I get to kind of participate with it all (well OK, I don't participate, I watch and take pictures.)

post-8115-0-67872700-1362505661_thumb.jpg

post-8115-0-16001000-1362505685_thumb.jpg

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Kim;

I love to see a guy using templates!

 

Dave thinks it is the only way to make sure it is the proper shape.

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That is a great story Bob.

 

Years ago I led a group of real estate investors into a money losing sandpit, by doing what I had been taught with a spreadsheet. The people that hired me were more clueless than me and made me the expert after one seminar and when the spreadsheet showed a profit of 25% everyone wanted in. We had no grizzled veteran to say "but what happens if it slows down". We had limited liability on the loans but when the bank said "either invest more or quit", everyone chose to quit- if the project had been funded with our money the return would have been a fraction of my projections- duh.

 

One thing I did do is use the rounding function- I hated the spreadsheet saying "you will make $12,986.89 on that". I'm still wary when I see numbers too fine- isn't it called something like "significant figures" where there is no point in doing math beyond the accuracy of your weakest number?

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Bob, here's a dumb question. The weight of a boat equals the weight of the volume of water displaced by it.

 

But how do you know how high the DWL is before you know the weight of the boat. Or equivalently, how do you know the weight of the boat before you know how high the DWL is?

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Tucky, my college physics teacher during experiments made us work out measurement errors and express results with significant digits appropriate to those. It was a pain in the ass, but he made his point.

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Keith:

I know where the waterline is when I begin. I have gone over this a few times. Maybe I'm not explaining it well.

 

I imagine the design finished, sailing, paid for. So I have a complete image in my mind, pretty much. Then I disect the image and work on the individual elements with my target finished image in mind.

The boat will be this long. The boat will weight this much based on my inclination and a certain style of construction, The boat will have this much ballast, give or take. The boat will have this much rig, etc. I know from experience what the possible parameters are and I know the wiggle room I wil have in getting them all to work together.

 

Let's say I get into the design and decide, I think this boat is going to be a bit heavier than I thought. I can do one of two things: I can sink the boat (raise the waterline) to add some displacement or I can add volume to the hull shape to account for the additional build weight and leave the DWL where it is. In the case of SLIVER I was happy with the hull form but when I began some structural sections it became clear that I needed more deadrise to give me more depth of hull to accomodate the required structure. So I added some deadrise to give the hull more depth. In doing so I picked up some additional hull volume. This extra volume meant I could increase the ballast amount.

 

I think the outsider, no offence intended, see the process as one of designing individual elements, then putting them together and seeing where the boat floats. That's not how I do it.

 

It's just another boat to me and I have so many examples of my own design and from others to draw from that the new design is not isolated at all. It's part of a big family of design work and as long as I am not going to get crazy radical I am pretty sure of the outcome.

 

Make sense?

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I'll tell you a funny story:

When I was a kid, probably 15 years old, I designed a 32' double ender. I called it BUDDY after the fellow who really got me involved with racing, Bud Stantorf.

I drew a nice set of hull lines, pretty fair for a kid without very good gear. I needed to caclulate the diplacement. I guessed around 10,000 lbs.. I did not own a Planimeter yet, too expensive. So I used the old count the squares method with a grid drawn on some tracing paper. I diligently counted the squares and came up with areas for each section. I plugged my sectional areas into the formula for Simpson's Multipliers in order to get the displacement.

 

I was never a math whizz and theoretical math problems were always hard for me. Same today. But now I see boat numbers in my head as tangeable elements not just numbers. Back when I was a kid this skill was not well developed.

So after sweating over the calculation, no doubt done all by hand, calculators didn't exist and I don't think I would have used a slide rule yet, I got my answer.

 

28,000 lbs.! Shistki!

I knew that was wrong. Really wrong. I went over and over my calculations but I could not find the error. I truly did sweat. I took my failings very personally. "Shitski, I AM just like Uncle Mick!"

Then a bolt of lightening hit. I had measured the area of each station accurately but I had measured the area of the entire station up to the sheer. STUPID! Kind of like the boat was sunk to the gunwhale. I obvioulsy should only have measured the sectional area BELOW the DWL. I was a kid. But I had my guess to check me and my guess proved correct. I can't remember how close it was. But it did indicate a problem with the calculation.

 

There is a part two to this story but I'm not even sure why I told you part one. I just remember that day very clearly.

 

I see a lot of young engineers who believe firmly that their calculators and equations are totally accurate to 6 decimal places and can't believe someone can take a quick look and say "bullshit" to one of their answers. The ability to make an educated guess demonstrates a mastery of the concept while a 6 decimal point solution only demonstrates the ability to plug and chug numbers in an equation.

When I went to college and during my first years of work, we used slide rules, accurate to three places. I worked several years before I aqquired a calculator. Several more years later I went back to school to take a fluids class. When I turned in my homework, I had the answer out to many decimal places. The instructor marked off the answer to three places and commented "false accuracy". I felt humiliated!

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Like all boat and ship designers, Bob builds a carefully scaled model and has a calibrated bathtub.

 

That ballast mold is interesting - we built ours out of heavy wooden boxes we had to construct ( that the foundry guys called 'flasks') and then sand-cast the bulb from our form after a center-line board had been placed on it - that allowed us to split the mold.

 

But then, our pour was 'only' 1,200 # of Pb.

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Our plywood mold.....coated in Rutland Water Glass Concrete Sealer and bolted together with all thread for more strength.

 

It worked well on the new Schooner Martha 22,000 pound ballast so we decided to try it on the 7400 pound Sliver ballast.

Sliver Keel Tool ArchB.pdf

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Shark:

Funny.

 

I'll tell you another story:

A very, very well known builder in the PNW also designed his own boats. This guy is famous and a good pal of mine. He caled one day and asked me how to determine the displacement of his boat by floating the model in his bathtub.

I explained that it was a bit complicated. I suggest he bring the lines by my office and for fun I'd put them into my computer and we could get all the numbers in an instant. I could do it in half an hour. I'm a whizz at that shit.

 

I then told him that once we had the hull in my computer he would be able to make any changes to the shape easily and quickly.

He said, "Oh, I can't do that. I already have the loft frames cut out."

 

So here you have a builder/designer clearly well into the buid of the boat without knowing the displacement of the boat.

Bottom line is the boat floated fine.

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Speaking of 'floating on it's lines' - my little Sonoma is so light she floats bow-down when unoccupied - put 3 people in the cockpit and it sits perfectly. What I want to know is how did Carl know what I weigh ?

 

"Water Glass Concrete Sealer" ? That sounds like serious stuff. We were coached through our casting by a bunch of partying Portugese commemorative plaque makers, so they had us do a sand-casting.*

 

 

* Sand casting big things for dummies

1) make the plug (full size model) of bulb

2) put centerline plate on plug

3) make flasks - in our case 2 open-faced boxes of 2x6 lumber with 3/4 ply lid, approx 30" x 50"

4) bolt heavy 'bits' into ends of flasks to allow picking up with chain fall

5) mix binder agent into sand

6) place one flask down, open side up, place plug on top, cover with other flask, remove flask lid

7) pack sand into top flask, and I mean PACK. Replace lid

8) drill holes in lid and inject CO2 into holes ! ( hardens sand into concrete-like effect)

9) pick the whole mess up, flip it over, uncover the new top, repeat steps 7 & 8

10) pick up again, stand upright, split flasks, CAREFULLY remove plug, fix any small imperfections in sand

11) put steel work into position with frame, close flasks together, secure with BANDIT banding tool.

12) make lead smelter from salvaged water-heater tank found by roadside

13) weigh pot prior to smelting, weigh all ingot & material before putting in pot

14) melt & pour lead - do this late on a Friday to avoid OSHA interferance.

15) weigh pot after cool to find out how much lead you actually put into bulb

16) remove bulb, and sand-filled flasks 1st thing Monday morning to avoid getting Portugese buddys mad - use very large construction lift and truck for this (all borrowed) that arrive at the last minute and dissappear like something out of a bank heist movie.

 

Nothing to it, really.

hah !

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Crap? Rasper you are hitting on a very raw nerve.

Crap you tell me?

 

I have been surrounded bu guys through out my career always thought they had the"answer"

The typical approach was, "Without my techical know how, you will be dead in the water."

I had many guys who worked for me who thought, "Without me you will be dead in the water."

 

Bottom line is, I don' remember some of those guy's names. Literally. You, sure as shit, have never heard of them.

 

I'm not a technical kind of guy. I'm a seat of the pants kind of guy.

This doesn't mean I am not aware of the technical components in what I do.

It just mneans that if I am to stay ahead I am not going to find the answer on page 23.

The seat of my pants has to be well ahead of the crowd.

 

Think of that word, "published". That probably means at least a two year's gap between when the technology was written down and when it was published.

Oops you are out of date mother fucker.

 

But that's the way most of the world works.

Note here.

Not in my office.

I get an idea. I Gary Mull it over.

I talk to my dogs about it.

I decide that given the fact that I am no genius there is no way of knowing if I am right or wrong.

In a serious voice, "You're no genius Bob."

 

I say to myself, "If the answer were that simple they would write it in a fancy technical book and we would all go with it."

But it isn't that simple. Not yet.

 

Then I think to myself, "Ok, you're not a genius but you are no dummy. And...you have been thinking about this shit since you were 14 years old. You have to know something by now."

"You have to."

Then I have a quick sit down with my dogs and if they are in agreement I go with it.

 

Actually, the dogs are not much help. They are always in agreement.

I always have a pocket full of dog treats.

 

Bob, awesome. I've quoted you above to our office here.

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Our plywood mold.....coated in Rutland Water Glass Concrete Sealer and bolted together with all thread for more strength.

 

It worked well on the new Schooner Martha 22,000 pound ballast so we decided to try it on the 7400 pound Sliver ballast.

 

Kim,

 

That Rutland stuff is amazing. A sealer. A cleaner. An adhesive. A preservative for eggs!!! You'll have to let them know that it's also good for sealing molds.

 

 

http://www.rutland.com/back/tds/document_56.pdf

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Don't underestimate the power of guessing. I guess all the time. When I am going to do a calculation I always start off with a guess. I know my guess is going to be damn close but I need the guess as a reference to make sure my calculation is on the mark. I trust my guess. Over time this allows the designer to refine and hone his ability to guess. The human brain can process a lot of complex information.

 

I can't imagine designing without guessing at things. How could you posibly be innovative and original if you relied on "page 121" for the answer. If it's in a book and the book is published it's old news. The design elements I guess at today might end up on "page 123" in two years. The designer who uses that information will be at least two years behind me.

 

The grey whales are back at the shack. I saw two, maybe three yesterday while walking the dogs. They don't always all surface at once so it can be hard to count. I'd guess there were two.

 

That is called Pattern Recognition, uses the most powerful part of your brain.

Of course, you need lots of patterns before it is worth shit.

And Metacognition, the ability to analyse experience, not just remember it.

 

It's a big deal in teaching people to be effective clinicians, and I suspect a in a lot of other professions.

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Keith:

I know where the waterline is when I begin. I have gone over this a few times. Maybe I'm not explaining it well.

 

I imagine the design finished, sailing, paid for. So I have a complete image in my mind, pretty much. Then I disect the image and work on the individual elements with my target finished image in mind.

The boat will be this long. The boat will weight this much based on my inclination and a certain style of construction, The boat will have this much ballast, give or take. The boat will have this much rig, etc. I know from experience what the possible parameters are and I know the wiggle room I wil have in getting them all to work together.

 

Let's say I get into the design and decide, I think this boat is going to be a bit heavier than I thought. I can do one of two things: I can sink the boat (raise the waterline) to add some displacement or I can add volume to the hull shape to account for the additional build weight and leave the DWL where it is. In the case of SLIVER I was happy with the hull form but when I began some structural sections it became clear that I needed more deadrise to give me more depth of hull to accomodate the required structure. So I added some deadrise to give the hull more depth. In doing so I picked up some additional hull volume. This extra volume meant I could increase the ballast amount.

 

I think the outsider, no offence intended, see the process as one of designing individual elements, then putting them together and seeing where the boat floats. That's not how I do it.

 

It's just another boat to me and I have so many examples of my own design and from others to draw from that the new design is not isolated at all. It's part of a big family of design work and as long as I am not going to get crazy radical I am pretty sure of the outcome.

 

Make sense?

 

Bob, this makes perfect sense. Thank you. If the question ever gets asked again I'll refer the curious mind to your answer.

 

Being able to visualize something that doesn't yet exist or hasn't happened is a handy skill in many endeavors.

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Don't underestimate the power of guessing. I guess all the time. When I am going to do a calculation I always start off with a guess. I know my guess is going to be damn close but I need the guess as a reference to make sure my calculation is on the mark. I trust my guess. Over time this allows the designer to refine and hone his ability to guess. The human brain can process a lot of complex information.

 

I can't imagine designing without guessing at things. How could you posibly be innovative and original if you relied on "page 121" for the answer. If it's in a book and the book is published it's old news. The design elements I guess at today might end up on "page 123" in two years. The designer who uses that information will be at least two years behind me.

 

The grey whales are back at the shack. I saw two, maybe three yesterday while walking the dogs. They don't always all surface at once so it can be hard to count. I'd guess there were two.

 

That is called Pattern Recognition, uses the most powerful part of your brain.

Of course, you need lots of patterns before it is worth shit.

And Metacognition, the ability to analyse experience, not just remember it.

 

It's a big deal in teaching people to be effective clinicians, and I suspect a in a lot of other professions.

 

Olaf, in math we just write all the proofs down and forget about all sorts of shit, especially how to calculate. The trick is in knowing what to try to prove, which involves a lot of creating and visualizing. Maybe it's the same as everything else.

 

I just finished Kahneman's "Thinking, Fast and Slow." A great view into how the mind works as discovered and pondered by him in his life's psychology research work.

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I just finished Kahneman's "Thinking, Fast and Slow." A great view into how the mind works as discovered and pondered by him in his life's psychology research work.

 

SWMBO really liked that book. It is on my Kindle waiting in line with a dozen others.....

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They always do the fun stuff when I am at work, just got this in a text from GreatDane28.

 

He says the bribes were not enough so it is centered.

 

post-8115-0-81413100-1362518772_thumb.jpg

 

Looks dark down below with the deck on. (Just fitting it now, it will go up again and then back down for the final install later this week.)

 

It will be weird to see her with a lid......

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Olaf:

You saying I have "Pattern Recognition" and "Meta cognition"?

Cool. So I got that going for me. At least there are names for my afflictions. I already had my Shingles shot.

 

Now if I just had perfect pitch and a nice singing voice I'd have the world by the balls.

 

Dolphin:

Jumpin Jehoshaphat! If I had known you were going to pin it up in the office head I'd have run spell check and taken out the salty language.

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Speaking of 'floating on it's lines' - my little Sonoma is so light she floats bow-down when unoccupied - put 3 people in the cockpit and it sits

 

Was the Sonoma a MORC design? I vaugely remember something about a bow down trim without crew raising the stern and shortening the waterline length as part of the measurement... I could be completely talking out of my ass here, but that seems plausible.

 

Maybe it was a Carl thing.... I've been told that our Olson 911 (also a Carl design to the MORC rules) has a bit of bow down trim as well. I haven't noticed, but other owners say it is there.

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When you do a boat like the Sonoma it is standard practice to include crew weight. So the boat should be bow down at the dock. Just hope your cockpit drains are forward. I included crew weight on the SLIVER. I just guess at a typical crew number then figure an average weight of 175 lbs. That didn't work when I did the 100' Va'a Fautassi for Samoa. I had to use a 245 lbs. average crew weight. That might have been too low.

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GreatDane28 promises more pictures tonight, but here is down below with her lid on......looking forward from salon......

post-8115-0-46316400-1362521237_thumb.jpg

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GreatDane28 promises more pictures tonight, but here is down below with her lid on......looking forward from salon......

 

Will you use Plexus, thickened expoxy or something else to bond and seal the joint before the tabbing goes on?

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GreatDane28 promises more pictures tonight, but here is down below with her lid on......looking forward from salon......

 

Will you use Plexus, thickened expoxy or something else to bond and seal the joint before the tabbing goes on?

 

You are asking the project accountant about a technical construction detail?

 

Paging GreatDane28, paging GreatDane28, your knowledge needed on the Sliver Thread!

 

(If my memory serves me, which it often does not, they did do something like that to fit the bulkheads to the hull, so I would not be surprised to see them do so with the deck to bulkhead joints (but it looks like a reasonable fit as is.......it is all the same computer files says Jim.........)

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Olaf:

You saying I have "Pattern Recognition" and "Meta cognition"?

Cool. So I got that going for me. At least there are names for my afflictions. I already had my Shingles shot.

 

Now if I just had perfect pitch and a nice singing voice I'd have the world by the balls.

 

Well, experience + metacognition = expertise.

Have you been practising your scales lately?

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Was the Sonoma a MORC design? I vaugely remember something about....

Maybe it was a Carl thing.....

 

I honestly don't think the Sonoma was ever intended as a serious racing boat. Carl had another 30-foot design around the same time that were built by Choate and 10-feet wide and 5,500 lbs - like REAL race boats of it's day. The Sonoma ( I think ) was intended more of a family trailerable for recreation and the occasional Delta Ditch Run-type event - as in, "We are only racing if the course is downwind." Its a fun boat and I love mine, but I don't think it'd ever excel in a buoy-regatta environment. I think the bow-down trim is just an artifact of the boat only having 3,300 # of displacement - so that the crew is a significant contribution to all-up weight..

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..................................................... I just guess at a typical crew number then figure an average weight of 175 lbs...........................................................

 

I had better start the diet and exercise program if she was designed to that number!

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They always do the fun stuff when I am at work, just got this in a text from GreatDane28.

 

He says the bribes were not enough so it is centered.

 

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Tell him he needs to learn the art of negotiation. We would have gone a LOT higher. ;)

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Keith:

I know where the waterline is when I begin. I have gone over this a few times. Maybe I'm not explaining it well.

 

I imagine the design finished, sailing, paid for. So I have a complete image in my mind, pretty much. Then I disect the image and work on the individual elements with my target finished image in mind.

The boat will be this long. The boat will weight this much based on my inclination and a certain style of construction, The boat will have this much ballast, give or take. The boat will have this much rig, etc. I know from experience what the possible parameters are and I know the wiggle room I wil have in getting them all to work together.

 

Let's say I get into the design and decide, I think this boat is going to be a bit heavier than I thought. I can do one of two things: I can sink the boat (raise the waterline) to add some displacement or I can add volume to the hull shape to account for the additional build weight and leave the DWL where it is. In the case of SLIVER I was happy with the hull form but when I began some structural sections it became clear that I needed more deadrise to give me more depth of hull to accomodate the required structure. So I added some deadrise to give the hull more depth. In doing so I picked up some additional hull volume. This extra volume meant I could increase the ballast amount.

 

I think the outsider, no offence intended, see the process as one of designing individual elements, then putting them together and seeing where the boat floats. That's not how I do it.

 

It's just another boat to me and I have so many examples of my own design and from others to draw from that the new design is not isolated at all. It's part of a big family of design work and as long as I am not going to get crazy radical I am pretty sure of the outcome.

 

Make sense?

 

Eureka, dammit. I get it now :)

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They always do the fun stuff when I am at work, just got this in a text from GreatDane28.

 

He says the bribes were not enough so it is centered.

 

post-8115-0-81413100-1362518772_thumb.jpg

 

 

Tell him he needs to learn the art of negotiation. We would have gone a LOT higher. ;)/>

 

To be fair, they did move the internal doorways off centre, and it only cost me a crate of beer ....

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They always do the fun stuff when I am at work, just got this in a text from GreatDane28.

 

He says the bribes were not enough so it is centered.

 

post-8115-0-81413100-1362518772_thumb.jpg

 

 

Tell him he needs to learn the art of negotiation. We would have gone a LOT higher. ;)/>

 

To be fair, they did move the internal doorways off centre, and it only cost me a crate of beer ....

 

They had to route them around the mast......

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I'm sure it's fine but I'm not big fan of welds in tension. Will it be xrayed? Remember, I'm the the guy that's uncomfortable with offset companionways.

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Olaf:

You saying I have "Pattern Recognition" and "Meta cognition"?

Cool. So I got that going for me. At least there are names for my afflictions. I already had my Shingles shot.

 

Now if I just had perfect pitch and a nice singing voice I'd have the world by the balls.

 

Dolphin:

Jumpin Jehoshaphat! If I had known you were going to pin it up in the office head I'd have run spell check and taken out the salty language.

 

Did that! edited version genuflected towards office decorum on the way to your pm

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I'm sure it's fine but I'm not big fan of welds in tension. Will it be xrayed? Remember, I'm the the guy that's uncomfortable with offset companionways.

 

The tension on the welds is very light because the forming of the plates was very well done. I am very confident in Dave's work after seeing the care and pride he is putting into the fin.

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I'm sure it's fine but I'm not big fan of welds in tension. Will it be xrayed? Remember, I'm the the guy that's uncomfortable with offset companionways.

 

I thought I was the off-center companionway worrywort.

 

Romain

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GreatDane28 promises more pictures tonight, but here is down below with her lid on......looking forward from salon......

 

Will you use Plexus, thickened expoxy or something else to bond and seal the joint before the tabbing goes on?

 

The deck will be bonded to the hull shelf with thickened epoxy & 'clamped' with screws through the deck into the shelf.

 

here are some links to photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533274982/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533274242/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533277444/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533279144/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8532161691/in/photostream/

 

as for negotiations - i could always set the hatch in the saloon overhead a little off center. or better yet, rotate it a little bit...offers?

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GreatDane28 promises more pictures tonight, but here is down below with her lid on......looking forward from salon......

 

Will you use Plexus, thickened expoxy or something else to bond and seal the joint before the tabbing goes on?

 

The deck will be bonded to the hull shelf with thickened epoxy & 'clamped' with screws through the deck into the shelf.

 

here are some links to photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533274982/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533274242/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533277444/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8533279144/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanprimus/8532161691/in/photostream/

 

as for negotiations - i could always set the hatch in the saloon overhead a little off center. or better yet, rotate it a little bit...offers?

 

Thanks. Nice pics.

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GreatDane28 promises more pictures tonight, but here is down below with her lid on......looking forward from salon......

 

Just like everything else Kim the deck to Bulkhead fit looks brilliant.

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Was the Sonoma a MORC design? I vaugely remember something about....

Maybe it was a Carl thing.....

 

I honestly don't think the Sonoma was ever intended as a serious racing boat. Carl had another 30-foot design around the same time that were built by Choate and 10-feet wide and 5,500 lbs - like REAL race boats of it's day. The Sonoma ( I think ) was intended more of a family trailerable for recreation and the occasional Delta Ditch Run-type event - as in, "We are only racing if the course is downwind." Its a fun boat and I love mine, but I don't think it'd ever excel in a buoy-regatta environment. I think the bow-down trim is just an artifact of the boat only having 3,300 # of displacement - so that the crew is a significant contribution to all-up weight..

 

oh well. it seemed like a good theory. ^_^

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The other side plate getting fit onto the fin structure, then sand blast and zinc 302 primer (I checked with the sheathing people to make sure epoxy would adhere to 302.)

 

Lead blub should get poured in the next couple weeks. Then drill and assembly with fin. Then to boatyard for sheathing the whole assembly in epoxy.

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Meanwhile back in Port Hadlock......Email from the School's executive director to the School's Board of Directors and other interested parties:

 

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

Bruce Blatchley advises that he intends to glue Sliver’s deck to the hull during the work day Thursday, March 7th, 2013.

 

s/Pete

 

Pete Leenhouts

Director, The Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding

42 N Water Street, Port Hadlock WA 98339

360-385-4948 www.nwboatschool.org (See us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/NWBoatSchool)

 

2013 - our 32nd year teaching and preserving the skills and crafts associated with fine wooden boatbuilding and other traditional maritime arts with emphasis on the development of the individual as a craftsperson.

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Is everything inside that needs to be inside? OK, got my hat and coat................... Looks great Kim.

Meanwhile back in Port Hadlock......Email from the School's executive director to the School's Board of Directors and other interested parties:

 

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

Bruce Blatchley advises that he intends to glue Sliver’s deck to the hull during the work day Thursday, March 7th, 2013.

 

s/Pete

 

Pete Leenhouts

Director, The Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding

42 N Water Street, Port Hadlock WA 98339

360-385-4948 www.nwboatschool.org (See us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/NWBoatSchool)

 

2013 - our 32nd year teaching and preserving the skills and crafts associated with fine wooden boatbuilding and other traditional maritime arts with emphasis on the development of the individual as a craftsperson.

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I hope they put everything they need to include inside. If not I guess we will be able to test accessibility.

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Take lots of pictures! It's nice to see my boy, GreatDane28!

 

What an incredible work of art.

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OK, Kim just called. The deck is on the boat! Yippee!

Kim is really excited and happy. He loves the look. He can sit in his cockpit. It's the real world of yacht building and it's going great.

Pics to follow.

 

So now I will go walk my dogs. It's raining. I won't put my hood up. I want to make sure that if any neighbors see me they will see my smug expression.

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GREAT NEWS! Kim must be strutting around like a puffed up prairie chicken. Looking forward to pictures

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Kim;

I love to see a guy using templates!

I like it when you talk dirty LOL

The Mark 1 eyeball works to a point when they're hand crafting curved shapes as opposed to building over sections like an aircraft wing. Using templates certainly gives you the warm fuzzies that they're faithfully reproducing what you've drawn.

Amazing how quickly it's all coming together.

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OK, Kim just called. The deck is on the boat! Yippee!

Kim is really excited and happy. He loves the look. He can sit in his cockpit. It's the real world of yacht building and it's going great.

Pics to follow.

 

So now I will go walk my dogs. It's raining. I won't put my hood up. I want to make sure that if any neighbors see me they will see my smug expression.

 

Great. I want pictures. Two decks seeing the light of day in one week. Go be smug.

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Looks great!... did the lid go on the right way around? ;)

 

I can't wait to see her with the cockpit coamings fitted.

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Shitski! I'm not sure. It's hard to tell.

 

I thought the aft cabin model usually came along as version 2.0..... You guys are always pushing the envelope.

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GREAT NEWS! Kim must be strutting around like a puffed up prairie chicken. Looking forward to pictures

 

Kim only struts when he is wearing his kilt.

(It is very hard for a Highland Scot to avoid strutting when he is wearing his kilt.)

 

Sorting through the pictures now, will post soon.

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Well, she now looks like a sailboat instead of a big canoe, but first things first.

 

The plan was to glue the deck down with West System epoxy (it had already been carefully fitted and indexed so the crew knew it would all fit nicely together) and there needed to be some positive pressure to hold it all together while the epoxy cured, so first a bunch of screws had to be oiled up for future ease of release when they would be removed. And they had to be placed in some plywood cleats to spread out the pressure.

 

The gluing would be to hold it all together until the tabbing started (after the deck gets trimmed to fit the hull and has the radius cut into the edge. But all that comes later on.)

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Kim only struts when he is wearing his kilt.

(It is very hard for a Highland Scot to avoid strutting when he is wearing his kilt.)

 

Very true. And the ladies love it even more when worn with a velvet doublet of one sort or other.

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Then my good friend (and neighbor) Neil shows up with his camera to document the whole process. (Neil claims he will have a good use for the pictures later on.)

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The crew starts out by cleaning the gluing surfaces up with acetone and it looks like it will take some time, so Neil and I drive up to Brandon's shop to see the bulb mold (well half of it anyway.)

 

(Brandon's very cool power cat was in the shop so we got a bit of a bonus. )

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So then back to the Hammond Shop at the School and the deck is still hanging over the hull, whew, we didn't really miss anything.

 

The crew has finished the cleaning and is mixing up the West System epoxy and spreading it on the hull and deck gluing surfaces.

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So Neil and I retreat to the loft area and watch as they lower the deck down and it fits perfectly without the need for any persuading.

 

(As Jim Franken always says; it all came from the same computer file, I guess the crew did a good job of building what was in the files.)

 

So the crew removes the strong-backs and we have what looks like a sailboat.

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I go below and the fit is amazing! Hardly any space at all between the deck and the bulkheads.....

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Look! A sailboat (well kind of.........)

 

The cockpit is very comfortable (Bob is a whiz at designing cockpits) and the deck is nice a clean.

 

The cabin will not seem so tall once we get a toe-rail, cabin eyebrow, dead-lites, handrail, etc.......

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Several days ago someone asked what happened with the very small gap between the deck and hull and the bulkheads.....well shortly after the deck went on the crew was squeezing thickened epoxy into the gap.....

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The deck is a inch or so too wide (this was intentional) so it will be trimmed to fit the hull and the edge will have a nice radius added. Maybe I will get pictures Monday.

 

Then also we will get to check the sheer. (Bob's first question when I called him was: "How does the sheer look?"

 

The sheer looked great in spite of the overhanging deck so it should look fabulous when the deck gets trimmed.

 

Bob draws a nice sheer.

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So exciting, Kim. I'm happy with you.

 

Will you tell us about the separation in the cockpit?

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Keith:

The small "bridge deck" in the cockpit is the base for the trav and the mainsheet winch. This has been there from the beginning although we went back and forth on how to handle the mainsheet and whether or not we wanted a trav. There are lots of reasons not have a trav and one really good reason to have one. Do we eneded up going with a trav. We had the space and we had the layout to make it an easy and effective installation with the trav having a lot of width to it.

 

I don;t have a jpeg right now of th revised layout with the trav shown but you can see what we were working with in this older deck layout. The trav will go immediately forward of the mainsheet winch.

I'll work on getting a revised deck layout jpeg for you tomorrow. I'm never abkle to convert my pdf's to jpegs very well. So what I do is send them to WHL and he turns them into readable jpegs. It's good to have CA friends with talents.

 

I'm actually starting to warm up to this boat.

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So exciting, Kim. I'm happy with you.

 

Will you tell us about the separation in the cockpit?

 

Needed a place to run the traveler and mount the center placed electric winch. And after sailing and owning Skerry Cruisers (Square Metre Boats) I am used to split cockpits. I rather like the way they work.

 

Aft cockpit for SWMBO and me, forward for the crew.

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So why is GreatDane28 standing in my cockpit??

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Oh yeah, he works there....

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Keith:

The small "bridge deck" in the cockpit is the base for the trav and the mainsheet winch. This has been there from the beginning although we went back and forth on how to handle the mainsheet and whether or not we wanted a trav. There are lots of reasons not have a trav and one really good reason to have one. Do we eneded up going with a trav. We had the space and we had the layout to make it an easy and effective installation with the trav having a lot of width to it.

 

I don;t have a jpeg right now of th revised layout with the trav shown but you can see what we were working with in this older deck layout. The trav will go immediately forward of the mainsheet winch.

 

The Harken traveler is in my garage, WHL, Bob and I were sitting around in Bob's office one day and we all came to the same conclusion at the same time: we want a traveler, so I got one.

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Someone might say, in a whiny voice, "But I have to step over that thing."

I'd say, in a rather arrogant voice, "If you can't step over the bridge deck you shouldn't be on the boat."

 

I can't stand it. I'm going to meet Kim at the yard on Monday. I have three days to work on my shit eating grin.

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Kim, how very exciting!! What a great milestone in the build of your dream boat. It must be difficult to keep the smile off your face (& Bob's too)

 

p.s. It's nice to see a woman in the group (in photo) learning the craft and art of wooden boat building! B)

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