kimbottles

Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

Recommended Posts

There are some things in life that simply put a big smile on your face and boats are one of those things. This project in partucular has caused more of those smiles than most other boats.

 

In the same vein, once it's in the water and sailing the smiles / mile ratio will be very high, both for those on the boat and the rest of us admiring from a distance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm picking thet Bob has some "rules of thumb" that he uses, and will not let on about. I'm also picking that the "rules of thumb" get adujested (sp) from boat to boat in a way that Bob himself barely understands, but works.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If your wife says "honey, come move the transmission so I can have a bath", you might be a redneck.

 

:lol: :lol: Foxworthy should pay you for that one.

Why? He said it first. <_<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dutcher:

Yes, think you have it figured out. I thuink back to the famous quote of Starling Burgess, "If it looks right it is right."

Tom is bogged down overthinking the entire process. I can see the smoke coming out of his ears as his brain overheats.

I look and think, "That's not right. Grab Kim's arm and together we fuss with the tape a few minutes and then say "That's better" and move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While living in the Islands, I often took on cabinet making and millwork jobs for custom homes. Most construction down there was reinforced concrete and the local West Indian native crews were pretty good at it. The finish carpenters and cabinetmakers were usually white liveboard sailers trying to restock the cruising kitty. I watched an older West Indian form carpenter setting the 'knock outs' that would create the holes for the windows after the wall was poured without using a level and made a comment. As I had to fit the finish wooden cases and jambs into the rough opening that would result, I wanted to be sure that there would be a level sill at a consistent height to work from. He just smiled at my concern and assured me that he 'didn't need no stinkin level' to get the sills level. Sure enough, when I got to work early to put a spirit level to them to check without further insulting the man, they were dead level and square. Of course he knew full well that I had double checked his work and let me know that he knew. I asked just how he had done so without even a spirit level (the contractor had a fancy laser level in his truck!) and he just spun me around and directed my attention out over the blue Caribbean Sea over which the site had a panoramic view.

 

His closing comment was priceless, "Mon, I got the biggest level in the world right there in front of me any time I need it!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a great story! Love it! Thanks for sharing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a great story! Love it! Thanks for sharing

 

We have had apprentices working on boats, "But I used a level" they can get confuseded when you say to them "use a tape measure, the boat is the bubble"

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While living in the Islands, I often took on cabinet making and millwork jobs for custom homes. Most construction down there was reinforced concrete and the local West Indian native crews were pretty good at it. The finish carpenters and cabinetmakers were usually white liveboard sailers trying to restock the cruising kitty. I watched an older West Indian form carpenter setting the 'knock outs' that would create the holes for the windows after the wall was poured without using a level and made a comment. As I had to fit the finish wooden cases and jambs into the rough opening that would result, I wanted to be sure that there would be a level sill at a consistent height to work from. He just smiled at my concern and assured me that he 'didn't need no stinkin level' to get the sills level. Sure enough, when I got to work early to put a spirit level to them to check without further insulting the man, they were dead level and square. Of course he knew full well that I had double checked his work and let me know that he knew. I asked just how he had done so without even a spirit level (the contractor had a fancy laser level in his truck!) and he just spun me around and directed my attention out over the blue Caribbean Sea over which the site had a panoramic view.

 

His closing comment was priceless, "Mon, I got the biggest level in the world right there in front of me any time I need it!"

 

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How to get it wrong on a really expensive boat:

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/Morris-Yachts-Ocean-Series-34-2179069/San-Francisco/CA/United-States#.UioDGMakoWQ

 

 

Or maybe they allowed for loading it with all the typical cruising crap, er . . . gear.

Bottom paint creeps closer and closer to the Bootstripe with each new coat. Isn't that a universal rule?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are few more tragic occurances with a new (or any) boat than a poorly done waterline/ boot stripe or a sheer that just misses the mark. Bob ain't a gonna let that happen. No way. No how!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that boat looks fine. I see about 4" of bottom paint showing and that's what I like.

My only change would have been 1.25" of black topsides paint below the bootstripe. I don't like the bottom paint to come up to the bootstripe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that boat looks fine. I see about 4" of bottom paint showing and that's what I like.

My only change would have been 1.25" of black topsides paint below the bootstripe. I don't like the bottom paint to come up to the bootstripe.

I think the last couple coats of bottom paint creeped up with sloppy masking tape application until your " 1.25 inch " disappeared. I did that a time or two when I was younger and even dumber.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that boat looks fine. I see about 4" of bottom paint showing and that's what I like.

My only change would have been 1.25" of black topsides paint below the bootstripe. I don't like the bottom paint to come up to the bootstripe.

+1 on the bottom paint not touching the boot top....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The second photo sez "I'm a little teacup, short and stout . . ." Moving the bootstripe down would probably make it worse, but a black stripe between would help.

 

Nice boat - been for sale a LONG time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deck hardware continues to be placed and holes drilled for future mounting after the deck gets painted....

 

I was worried about the size of the cabin top winches as Bob specified 44's but when I ran across that close out on winches three years ago they had sold out of the 44's so I bought 46's. Well no worries as the 46's were not as big or tall as I had feared once I saw one fitted on the cabin top. (I don't recall anyone ever complaining about too much winch while sailing.....)

post-8115-0-19793800-1378499399_thumb.jpg

post-8115-0-86159900-1378499402_thumb.jpg

post-8115-0-55375500-1378499407_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The paint prep crew is going wild on the deck/cabin/cockpit........same guys who painted the hull (Josh and David) are running the show, so I bet it all turns out well.

post-8115-0-91489200-1378499916_thumb.jpg

post-8115-0-60045400-1378499920_thumb.jpg

post-8115-0-40997700-1378499923_thumb.jpg

post-8115-0-34821100-1378499927_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice boat... I'd trade mine for it if they'd move the decimal place to the left by one digit.

 

I think the pictures make it clear that one reason boats are expensive is you've got to make a lot of stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Very nice boat... I'd trade mine for it if they'd move the decimal place to the left by one digit.

 

I think the pictures make it clear that one reason boats are expensive is you've got to make a lot of stuff.

 

Especially when they are one-off day-sailers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm picking thet Bob has some "rules of thumb" that he uses, and will not let on about. I'm also picking that the "rules of thumb" get adujested (sp) from boat to boat in a way that Bob himself barely understands, but works.

 

I think he has very long, fat thumbs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the pictures make it clear that one reason boats are expensive is you've got to make a lot of stuff.

 

 

That, and the incredible amount of labor that goes into a good paint job and doing things right, in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those 46's look just fine there Kim. I hate undersized winches.

 

I won't tell you the brand of boat but when they launched their 40'er and I sailed the boat I told them, "The primaries are too small."

They said, "We downsized them. The winches you spec'd are the same size we have on the 44."

I said, "Yeah, and they are too small on the 44 too!"

They said, "Oh, we downsized those too."

If I have learned one thing in 4 years of doing this it is to pay attention to the winch sizing charts in the Lewmar and Harken catalogs. They are correct. I like big winches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ST winches!!

 

Does WHL know about this??

 

 

;)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those 46's look just fine there Kim. I hate undersized winches.

 

I won't tell you the brand of boat but when they launched their 40'er and I sailed the boat I told them, "The primaries are too small."

They said, "We downsized them. The winches you spec'd are the same size we have on the 44."

I said, "Yeah, and they are too small on the 44 too!"

They said, "Oh, we downsized those too."

If I have learned one thing in 4 years of doing this it is to pay attention to the winch sizing charts in the Lewmar and Harken catalogs. They are correct. I like big winches.

 

When I bought the electric main-sheet winch the Harken rep said: "You don't need a 53 there, a 46 will do fine......" I bought the 53 anyway and then he said: "well no one ever said 'gosh this winch is too big'...."

 

And the electric winch is right in between the two 53 primaries, so this way they match up well together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know about the Parthenon's complete lack of right angles.

 

A boat in still water has a level line: the waterline. I always figured any stripe should be parallel to that line. That would mean it has to be flat and level.

 

Is the problem with stripes that if you actually make it flat and level using a laser line, it will look like it is not? If you make it diverge from the level waterline, won't that be obvious?

Think of it this way Tom: if you had a piece of plywood with a 4" horizontal stripe down the middle, and the edges of the stripes were exactly parallel, it would look like one even stripe while standing back 20'.

 

Now cut that plywood in half vertically. Move one piece of plywood back 8', and view it from the same position as before. You would see the stripe on the nearest piece of plywood as being wider than the one further back. It's perspective.

 

The same thing happens on a boat, its just not abrupt, as it is curved.

 

To further complicate things, you need to look at the boat at different angles, yet your perspective will change with each angle. Getting that boot stripe right is an art. Fortunately for Kim, Bob is an artist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Checking in after being out of town for a bit. Boat looks absolutely beautiful! <understatement>

 

After reading about getting the boot stripe perfect, I couldn't help but wonder what the final word on graphics was?

 

Just the name and hailing port in smallish simple font........Flag Blue in color to match the cover stripe.

 

I would encourage you to look at possibilities beyond the fonts you find on MS Word. There are some pretty cool options available, depending on what your looking for.

 

Go to myfonts.com

Type in Francis Lee or Bainbridge Island and see what you come up with. You can play around with it and see if anything jumps at you. They aslo have a feature that allows you to upload a sample of a font you like (but can't identify) and they will match it up.

 

fwiw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I know about the Parthenon's complete lack of right angles.

 

A boat in still water has a level line: the waterline. I always figured any stripe should be parallel to that line. That would mean it has to be flat and level.

 

Is the problem with stripes that if you actually make it flat and level using a laser line, it will look like it is not? If you make it diverge from the level waterline, won't that be obvious?

Think of it this way Tom: if you had a piece of plywood with a 4" horizontal stripe down the middle, and the edges of the stripes were exactly parallel, it would look like one even stripe while standing back 20'.

Now cut that plywood in half vertically. Move one piece of plywood back 8', and view it from the same position as before. You would see the stripe on the nearest piece of plywood as being wider than the one further back. It's perspective.

The same thing happens on a boat, its just not abrupt, as it is curved.

To further complicate things, you need to look at the boat at different angles, yet your perspective will change with each angle. Getting that boot stripe right is an art. Fortunately for Kim, Bob is an artist.

There was no luck involved in selecting Bob to design the boat. I made a very conscious decision based on his body of work, especially his double-enders. (And the fact that I have known him for more than 20 years.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I know about the Parthenon's complete lack of right angles.

 

A boat in still water has a level line: the waterline. I always figured any stripe should be parallel to that line. That would mean it has to be flat and level.

 

Is the problem with stripes that if you actually make it flat and level using a laser line, it will look like it is not? If you make it diverge from the level waterline, won't that be obvious?

Think of it this way Tom: if you had a piece of plywood with a 4" horizontal stripe down the middle, and the edges of the stripes were exactly parallel, it would look like one even stripe while standing back 20'.

Now cut that plywood in half vertically. Move one piece of plywood back 8', and view it from the same position as before. You would see the stripe on the nearest piece of plywood as being wider than the one further back. It's perspective.

The same thing happens on a boat, its just not abrupt, as it is curved.

To further complicate things, you need to look at the boat at different angles, yet your perspective will change with each angle. Getting that boot stripe right is an art. Fortunately for Kim, Bob is an artist.

There was no luck involved in selecting Bob to design the boat. I made a very conscious decision based on his body of work, especially his double-enders. (And the fact that I have known him for more than 20 years.)

Perhaps fortunately was the wrong choice of words.

 

But I do stand by my artist comment, it takes a certain eye. At least I didn't call him an artist at the beginning of the project;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those 46's look just fine there Kim. I hate undersized winches.

 

I won't tell you the brand of boat but when they launched their 40'er and I sailed the boat I told them, "The primaries are too small."

They said, "We downsized them. The winches you spec'd are the same size we have on the 44."

I said, "Yeah, and they are too small on the 44 too!"

They said, "Oh, we downsized those too."

If I have learned one thing in 4 years of doing this it is to pay attention to the winch sizing charts in the Lewmar and Harken catalogs. They are correct. I like big winches.

 

 

Those 46's look just fine there Kim. I hate undersized winches.

 

I won't tell you the brand of boat but when they launched their 40'er and I sailed the boat I told them, "The primaries are too small."

They said, "We downsized them. The winches you spec'd are the same size we have on the 44."

I said, "Yeah, and they are too small on the 44 too!"

They said, "Oh, we downsized those too."

If I have learned one thing in 4 years of doing this it is to pay attention to the winch sizing charts in the Lewmar and Harken catalogs. They are correct. I like big winches.

I agree Bob. Having the correct purchase is always handy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I am an artist?

 

Damn, my hourly rate just went up.

Nice going CyberBob!!

Kim, just remind him that most artists are starving... unfortunately the hourly rate only goes up when you die!

 

And I see they peeled off the mast collar - I told you it wasn't stuck to the packing tape. Packing tape - the poor man's release film. I've used it when I run out of the "proper" stuff...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I know about the Parthenon's complete lack of right angles.

 

A boat in still water has a level line: the waterline. I always figured any stripe should be parallel to that line. That would mean it has to be flat and level.

 

Is the problem with stripes that if you actually make it flat and level using a laser line, it will look like it is not? If you make it diverge from the level waterline, won't that be obvious?

Think of it this way Tom: if you had a piece of plywood with a 4" horizontal stripe down the middle, and the edges of the stripes were exactly parallel, it would look like one even stripe while standing back 20'.

 

Now cut that plywood in half vertically. Move one piece of plywood back 8', and view it from the same position as before. You would see the stripe on the nearest piece of plywood as being wider than the one further back. It's perspective.

 

The same thing happens on a boat, its just not abrupt, as it is curved.

 

To further complicate things, you need to look at the boat at different angles, yet your perspective will change with each angle. Getting that boot stripe right is an art. Fortunately for Kim, Bob is an artist.

 

 

Thanks for trying, CB, but I'm afraid BP was right. This is just making smoke come out my ears. Seems to me that a perfectly level stripe of even width would help your eye see the curves, which is the point, right?

 

I still just want to see how this stripe looks with a laser line projected onto it. Not that it's really important. It's something like reason number 1,042 that I'm glad other people make boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom:

You'll see the result soon. We will not be using a laser level to check it though. I used my eye and that may not be good enough for you but my client likes it. I have explained my process and reasons on this ad nauseum here. I don't feel compelled to elaborate further. You seem bogged down in your own methods. So, sit back, wipe the soot off from around your ears and relax.You'll see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to paint aerobatic airplanes, same issues as boats in getting stripes to look right while going around curved surfaces. I tried a laser level once. After hours of laying out a complicated paint scheme with the laser, I spent more time trying to get them to look right. Last time I ever bothered with that method.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom:

You'll see the result soon. We will not be using a laser level to check it though. I used my eye and that may not be good enough for you but my client likes it. I have explained my process and reasons on this ad nauseum here. I don't feel compelled to elaborate further. You seem bogged down in your own methods. So, sit back, wipe the soot off from around your ears and relax.You'll see.

 

I never said your eye was not good enough, Bob, just said that I wonder how a line drawn by your eye would differ from one that followed a laser line. That does not imply that the laser line (or yours, for that matter) is better. I just wonder whether you bend it up or down to make it look level, and how much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I think that boat looks fine. I see about 4" of bottom paint showing and that's what I like.

My only change would have been 1.25" of black topsides paint below the bootstripe. I don't like the bottom paint to come up to the bootstripe.

+1 on the bottom paint not touching the boot top....

 

On a boat the size of the "Francis Lee," absolutely. I saw that detail on a Rhodes 19 and thought it was a bit much.

 

 

Nice day in Port Townsend today. There was a nice presentation on the construction of Francis Lee by Bruce from the school.

attachicon.gifIMG_0753-small.JPG

 

Those Buzzard Bay 25s are gorgeous. I saw one embarrass a J-30 several years ago. Why, however, does boat have it's class name painted on the transom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Tom:

You'll see the result soon. We will not be using a laser level to check it though. I used my eye and that may not be good enough for you but my client likes it. I have explained my process and reasons on this ad nauseum here. I don't feel compelled to elaborate further. You seem bogged down in your own methods. So, sit back, wipe the soot off from around your ears and relax.You'll see.

 

I never said your eye was not good enough, Bob, just said that I wonder how a line drawn by your eye would differ from one that followed a laser line. That does not imply that the laser line (or yours, for that matter) is better. I just wonder whether you bend it up or down to make it look level, and how much.

 

I googled greek columns to try and get an answer... the science was too complicated and didn't seem to answer the question.

 

It's sort of like : Why should you have more yellow than blue when you put the colours together or why Did Greek statues move away from anatomical norms?

 

Because our eye likes it and we can't work out why.

 

I'm with you Tom; I'd like to put a laser on the, soon to be christened, Francis Lee and see how Bob's art works but I'm afraid there ain't gunna be no stinking laser levels. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With a little trepidation, I'll wade into the fray.

 

It's an optical illusion due to perspective and curved surfaces. Objects in the distance appear smaller, as is clear in this picture of receding lampposts.

Lamp_Posts_by_Summertal.jpg

 

When viewed from the beam, the ends of boottop (being on the centerline) are further away from the viewer than the middle is. This means that a dead straight line would probably look like it's slightly hogged. This effect is fairly minimal on a boat like the Sliver since she's so narrow, but it's still there.

It's the reason why a dead straight sheer line will look slightly hogged when viewed from the beam. Ben Seaborn's Thunderbird is an excellent example of this. The sheer is dead straight, but from many angles it looks a bit hogged. The rules of perspective are very simple and easy to define. They allow people to make detailed perspective drawings:

0002.jpg

 

And it's the same process that a computer uses to develop perspective renderings. Perspective views are helpful, but can still be misleading because they are flat surfaces, and often at a much smaller scale than the full size object.

 

The line also changes shape depending on where you're looking at it from. From below the line, it will often look hogged, from above it will appear to have healthy sheer. In both cases, this is because you see more of it's horizontal curvature in those views.

 

So my guess, is that when says he "bends the curve straight" he's adjusting the lines to the curvature of the hull so that it will appear straight from the angles he wants it to look straight from. If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll tell me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Milo:

You are correct and you are also wrong. Mostly you are correct.

 

There is no "fray". This is between me and the boat.

 

I think you have a small part of this backwards. I understand the hogged effect. It happens due to the curvature oif the hull in plan view. I did HEATHER, the two tonner with a dead straight line sheer. Once on the water the sheer never looked straight. It did not looked hogged either unless you were on the weather side. From the weather side almost every sheer looks hogged. I prefer to say "reversed" not hogged.

 

But just looked at a big photo I have of HEATHER. The shot is taken from the weather side on a splin reach. The sheer does not looked hogged at all.

 

Note the dramatic non planar sheer on Garden's OCEANUS (RIP).

 

Back to the subject:

The effect I ran into on the Sliver was exactly the opposite to what you describe Milo. The boot stripe did not look hogged. It looked like a banana in the ends. It curled up in the ends.

Scott noticed this and alerted Kim. Kim called me and told me about it. I drove to Seattle and verified there was a problem. I fiddled with it. Kim looked at it. I drove back to Seattle and met with Kim and the painter. Together we made a final adjsutment to each end of the cove stripe so it looked, from a variety of angles, the way I want it to look, i.e. straight and level.

 

Am I making sense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob: Very interesting. When I was painting boats for a summer, I did a number of boot tops. My personal experience, was that the ones that looked exaggeratedly sheered on the profile drawing came out looking good on the hull. Those that looked a bit more subtle on paper had to be adjusted in real life - it was usually the ends that looked wrong. I never painted a boat as narrow as Francis Lee, (I doubt I painted a boat with a L/B ratio of more than 4) I suspect that changes things a bit. She also has a very flat sheer which might make even the slightest sheer in the boot top look a bit bananaesque. That's my tentative theory.

 

There was one boat which had two thin parallel lines above the waterline. It looked ok in the yard. But once the boat was in the water and had loaded its dinghy and windvane, and liferaft, and the dinghy's outboard motor, and jerry can, etc. onto the stern, those two straight lines made it painfully clear that she was out of trim.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing Francis Lee all painted up!

 

Also, Oceanus, has one sweet sheer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rules of perspective are very simple and easy to define. They allow people to make detailed perspective drawings:

0002.jpg

 

I've been looking at Garden's perspective drawings and saying, "Wow, he was an incredible draftsman!"

 

I just read the writing carefully - 19'7' from station S (?), 12 degees off w.l?! He was plotting all his points like a computer!! No wonder it comes out so perfect!

 

I'm doubly impressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zed:

You got that right. Bill and Al Mason were the masters of the perspective lines drawing. Seems like I recall Garden laying out the process step by step somewhere. Bill like Al was a great draftsman although his style and Al Mason's were miles apart.

 

Milo:

I think what you experienced painting boats was that a curved line leaves room for error. A straight line leaves no room for error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice day in Port Townsend today. There was a nice presentation on the construction of Francis Lee by Bruce from the school.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_0799-small.JPGattachicon.gifIMG_0753-small.JPG

attachicon.gifIMG_0789-small.JPGattachicon.gifIMG_0796-small.JPG

Nice photos, Joe. Was sorry to miss the PTWBF, but after having gone for the last few years, thought I would give it a miss this time around. Played golf at a gorgeous course instead. I am certainly not going to miss it next year, when Francis Lee will be in attendance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zed:

You got that right. Bill and Al Mason were the masters of the perspective lines drawing. Seems like I recall Garden laying out the process step by step somewhere. Bill like Al was a great draftsman although his style and Al Mason's were miles apart.

 

Milo:

I think what you experienced painting boats was that a curved line leaves room for error. A straight line leaves no room for error.

Garden describes the process in Yacht Designs I, in the chapter on "A Coasting Schooner." My copy of the book still falls open to that page from the time I made one of these drawings, came out quite nice, but took a long time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Say you want a two inch stripe on the waterline. If you were to float the boat in water and mask the hull on the water line, then sink the boat exactly two inches and mask again, the only way the strip would measure 2" is if the hull side is 90 degrees to the water. The more flair in the hull the wider the stripe. The result in a boat hull would be the appearance of the stripe bending up like a banana. The only time it would look 2" is if you were to sight down it from one end. This is what happens with a laser level.

If you were to take the first masking line, done exactly on the water line, then measure on the side of the hull up 2" all the way around, the stipe would appear to bend down in the ends when viewed from above.

The only way to get it looking just right from the angle the stripe is going to be viewed at is by eyeball. Done wrong and it will look odd but hard to explain why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

deadbeat:

Not sure I buy all your thinking on that. This is not my first bootstripe. I have done many straight and many with spring to them.

I think done as it is now, adjusted by me it will look right from any angle. That was the goal of the exersize.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deadbeat is probably too modest to mention his "day job", but lets just say his finish work is literally second to none... this is obviously not discounting Bob's perspective (pun intended), just demonstrating there is room for more than one way of explaining/understanding this interesting subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soup:

I could tell he knew what he was talking about and his last line:

 

"The only way to get it looking just right from the angle the stripe is going to be viewed at is by eyeball. Done wrong and it will look odd but hard to explain why."

 

I thought was spot on. God knows I sure have had a hard time explaining it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soup, thanks. I just do what I do.

 

Bob

I have had the same discussions with people and it is very hard to explane what looks right and why it looks right. I was trying to show two methods of getting a two inch stripe and how they would differ from different angles. How it would get layed out would differ from project to project as I'm sure you have experienced. Straight stripes around compound curved surfaces are interesting and challenging and if there is a formula for getting it right I don't know it! But I, as you, know if its wrong.

Great job on taking time to get this special boat right, well worth the extra effort!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Zed:

You got that right. Bill and Al Mason were the masters of the perspective lines drawing. Seems like I recall Garden laying out the process step by step somewhere. Bill like Al was a great draftsman although his style and Al Mason's were miles apart.

 

Garden describes the process in Yacht Designs I, in the chapter on "A Coasting Schooner." My copy of the book still falls open to that page from the time I made one of these drawings, came out quite nice, but took a long time.

 

Oh, I know what the process is - if you know where every point on the hull (every intersection of a station and a w/l) is in 3D, you do a little trig (or a matrix multiply) for your eyeball-placement (clam-placement?) conversion, then another to project onto the 2D surface of the page.

 

I just wouldn't want to do it for (at my count) 16 stations includin stem & stern X 9 or so waterlines.... ouch!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Hobot. This bootstripe horse is only mostly dead.

 

(and as we all know, when something is only mostly dead, it's still slightly alive)

 

Resume the beating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Say you want a two inch stripe on the waterline. If you were to float the boat in water and mask the hull on the water line, then sink the boat exactly two inches and mask again, the only way the strip would measure 2" is if the hull side is 90 degrees to the water. The more flair in the hull the wider the stripe. The result in a boat hull would be the appearance of the stripe bending up like a banana. The only time it would look 2" is if you were to sight down it from one end. This is what happens with a laser level.

If you were to take the first masking line, done exactly on the water line, then measure on the side of the hull up 2" all the way around, the stipe would appear to bend down in the ends when viewed from above.

The only way to get it looking just right from the angle the stripe is going to be viewed at is by eyeball. Done wrong and it will look odd but hard to explain why.

Someone is going to have to explain the process to me when I finally get the energy to paint my 4KSB. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Say you want a two inch stripe on the waterline. If you were to float the boat in water and mask the hull on the water line, then sink the boat exactly two inches and mask again, the only way the strip would measure 2" is if the hull side is 90 degrees to the water. The more flair in the hull the wider the stripe. The result in a boat hull would be the appearance of the stripe bending up like a banana. The only time it would look 2" is if you were to sight down it from one end. This is what happens with a laser level.

If you were to take the first masking line, done exactly on the water line, then measure on the side of the hull up 2" all the way around, the stipe would appear to bend down in the ends when viewed from above.

The only way to get it looking just right from the angle the stripe is going to be viewed at is by eyeball. Done wrong and it will look odd but hard to explain why.

Someone is going to have to explain the process to me when I finally get the energy to paint my 4KSB. :rolleyes:

Just fly Bob out for a visit.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting there is no V at all in the stern of that hull.

How do those boats ride in a choppy sea?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Olaf:

Lyman's are very famous old runaboats here. I imagine they ride just fine. I would guess that model was built in the early 60's.

 

Mr. Bitches:

When the time comes for you to paint your boot stripe I'll walk you through the process. It's very easy. In the case of FRANCIS LEE the slenderness of the hull just added some excitement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How far out is keel attachment day?

 

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Hobot. This bootstripe horse is only mostly dead.

 

(and as we all know, when something is only mostly dead, it's still slightly alive)

 

Resume the beating.

When trying to get a thread's path to turn 45 degrees I'll usually ask for a random recipe....

 

 

 

ummm, I'm thinking a basic dinner for the girls and I...any help with cooking up some beef tips?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swiss steak works for me but it's a bit warm for that dish and you need mashed spuds with it. And NOT out of a box!

 

My kids are carnivores, time spent with Dad is time away from Tofurkey and other misadventures into soy based products fed to them.

 

Swiss Steak, smashed potatoes and steamed veggies it is!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hobs:

Recipe sent via pm.

 

You need to stir it once and a while. Like every ten minutes or so. Don';t turn your stove down so low that the meat won;t continue to cook. You can't really overcook this dish= as long as you start with a cheap cut of steak. The cheap cuts have all the flavor. You just need to be patient with them.

 

Whenever I serve this the meat eaters go wild. It's a manly dish but I think you girls will appreciate it.

Put on some Mahler while you dine.

 

This is my son Max's favorite dinner. I think it is working. He's a healthy 6'5".

post-2980-0-54721000-1378769126_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not very fair to make me that hungry and not share the recipe! Would it dilute the charm of the dish to post the recipe for all to see? I don't think I've had swiss steak for over 20 years.

 

 

 


 

Hobs:

Recipe sent via pm.

 

You need to stir it once and a while. Like every ten minutes or so. Don';t turn your stove down so low that the meat won;t continue to cook. You can't really overcook this dish= as long as you start with a cheap cut of steak. The cheap cuts have all the flavor. You just need to be patient with them.

 

Whenever I serve this the meat eaters go wild. It's a manly dish but I think you girls will appreciate it.

Put on some Mahler while you dine.

 

This is my son Max's favorite dinner. I think it is working. He's a healthy 6'5".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shit Soup. I didn't know you were hungry. Here you go.

 

 

Buy some steak. I buy tri-tip sirloin but any sirloin will do. Round steak will also do. You do not want an expensive steak for this dish. It will fall apart.

 

ALLOW 2 HOURS COOKING TIME!

 

Buy a can of Muir Glen tomato sauce, buy two cans.

But one packet of Knorr "Brown gravy mix". Tghis is optional but recommended as it adds "body".

 

Cut steak into one portion size strips or chunks. Nice, biggish pieces.

 

Brown the steak in oil in a deep fry pan.

When steak is bowned dump in your can of tom sauce. Stir.

Tirn stove down to "low"

Add salt, pepper (lots) and stir.

Mix the brown gravy mix in a small dish, go easy on the water and add this to the sauce in the fry pan.

 

I likie to add some Worchestershire Sauce, a few drips and drabs.

For the adventurous a table spoon of Vegemite just to,,,,,well just too,,,give it some kick.

 

That's fucking it!

 

Now you let it simmer on the stove for about 1.5 to 2 hours.

The longer you cook it the more tender the steak will be and the richer the sauce will be.

If the sauce gets too thick just add some water.

 

This is Max's favorite dinner. It's a perfect way to scoop up mashed spuds.

It is really good left over and re-heated.

Yeah, you need to stir it about every ten minutes or so.

 

Bob P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use only Muir Glenn tomato products because they steam the skins off the tomatoes. The other companies use chemicals to remove the skins.

I believe everything that I read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hobs:

Recipe sent via pm.

 

You need to stir it once and a while. Like every ten minutes or so. Don';t turn your stove down so low that the meat won;t continue to cook. You can't really overcook this dish= as long as you start with a cheap cut of steak. The cheap cuts have all the flavor. You just need to be patient with them.

 

Whenever I serve this the meat eaters go wild. It's a manly dish but I think you girls will appreciate it.

Put on some Mahler while you dine.

 

This is my son Max's favorite dinner. I think it is working. He's a healthy 6'5".

 

Awesome stuff! I'll know I scored a hit when they go silent and all I'll hear is them eating.

 

Mahler you say? They both remember being told about certain Composers by some tall guy.

 

020-3.jpg

 

 

Now, whens Kims keel getting attached? I'd like to watch that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unknown when the keel gets attached, I will try and let you know about it and the rig when I know.

 

I bet the boat goes in the water and gets the rig when she is wet.

 

still lots of stuff to do.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that! It's safe to assume that I am pretty much always hungry.

 

 

 

 

Shit Soup. I didn't know you were hungry. Here you go.

 

 

Buy some steak. I buy tri-tip sirloin but any sirloin will do. Round steak will also do. You do not want an expensive steak for this dish. It will fall apart.

 

ALLOW 2 HOURS COOKING TIME!

 

Buy a can of Muir Glen tomato sauce, buy two cans.

But one packet of Knorr "Brown gravy mix". Tghis is optional but recommended as it adds "body".

 

Cut steak into one portion size strips or chunks. Nice, biggish pieces.

 

Brown the steak in oil in a deep fry pan.

When steak is bowned dump in your can of tom sauce. Stir.

Tirn stove down to "low"

Add salt, pepper (lots) and stir.

Mix the brown gravy mix in a small dish, go easy on the water and add this to the sauce in the fry pan.

 

I likie to add some Worchestershire Sauce, a few drips and drabs.

For the adventurous a table spoon of Vegemite just to,,,,,well just too,,,give it some kick.

 

That's fucking it!

 

Now you let it simmer on the stove for about 1.5 to 2 hours.

The longer you cook it the more tender the steak will be and the richer the sauce will be.

If the sauce gets too thick just add some water.

 

This is Max's favorite dinner. It's a perfect way to scoop up mashed spuds.

It is really good left over and re-heated.

Yeah, you need to stir it about every ten minutes or so.

 

Bob P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Shit Soup. I didn't know you were hungry. Here you go.

 

 

Buy some steak. I buy tri-tip sirloin but any sirloin will do. Round steak will also do. You do not want an expensive steak for this dish. It will fall apart.

 

ALLOW 2 HOURS COOKING TIME!

 

Buy a can of Muir Glen tomato sauce, buy two cans.

But one packet of Knorr "Brown gravy mix". Tghis is optional but recommended as it adds "body".

 

Cut steak into one portion size strips or chunks. Nice, biggish pieces.

 

Brown the steak in oil in a deep fry pan.

When steak is bowned dump in your can of tom sauce. Stir.

Tirn stove down to "low"

Add salt, pepper (lots) and stir.

Mix the brown gravy mix in a small dish, go easy on the water and add this to the sauce in the fry pan.

 

I likie to add some Worchestershire Sauce, a few drips and drabs.

For the adventurous a table spoon of Vegemite just to,,,,,well just too,,,give it some kick.

 

That's fucking it!

 

Now you let it simmer on the stove for about 1.5 to 2 hours.

The longer you cook it the more tender the steak will be and the richer the sauce will be.

If the sauce gets too thick just add some water.

 

This is Max's favorite dinner. It's a perfect way to scoop up mashed spuds.

It is really good left over and re-heated.

Yeah, you need to stir it about every ten minutes or so.

 

Bob P.

Sounds great, Bob. I'll give it a try.

 

A tip for mashed potatoes. Just before you mash 'em with lots of salted butter and a dash of milk, try adding half a very finely chopped clove of raw garlic. It's delicious.

 

I've a great recipe for slow-cooked lamb shanks which goes with these spuds too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

++1 on the garlic. I use cream instead of milk.

 

Bob, do you use a laser level to male sure the spoon is just the right depth in the sauce?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

++1 on the garlic. I use cream instead of milk.

 

Bob, do you use a laser level to male sure the spoon is just the right depth in the sauce?

 

Jose, what a silly question. If Bob used a laser level it would of course turn out perfectly but (also of course) would never look (taste?) exactly right. He'd just have to go back and fiddle with it and fiddle with it until it finally came out right.

 

Bob of course just skips the laser level step and does it by eye the first time and it comes out perfectly. Years of experience here... :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My newest "secret" while cooking pasta sauce is to use a couple spoons of red wine vinegar

 

I use milk with mashed spuds. Get's em fluffier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll "third" garlic int he mashed spuds. You can also bake a whole garlic bud in aluminum foil for 30 - 45 minutes, cut off the top, squeeze out the gooey goodness inside and add that to the spuds. Great flavour and a bit more subtle than raw garlic.

 

I tried to sneak this past the mother in law (who hates garlic), one family dinner but failed. Ever since then I'm being supervised when we cook for an extended family dinner. :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites