kimbottles

Perry Sliver Class Day Sailor

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7070:

I didn't ask about the glass at the keel joint but here is what I suspect. There is a lot of fairing bog around those big bolt heads. It's thick, maybe as much as 1.25" thick in spots. There is no strength in the bog so the glass is there to keep it from separating from the grp skin and falling off. Maybe Kim can get a more detailed explanation tomorrow so I'll know too.

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Sounds good to me bob, fairing that thick would probably crack open after the first hard sail or two. I wonder if something more flexible (g-flex?) could be used to fair that, but that much fairing would be extremely expensive to do with g-flex.

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When I informed the yard I had no plans to ever remove the keel for shipping I think they decided that a few vacuum bagged couple layers of glass would be strongest and less maintenance.

 

But I will ask anyway tomorrow and see what answer I get.

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Rudder now all done and waiting for bottom paint.........oh yeah, I guess it needs to be fitted and installed too............

 

 

what, no tubercles?

 

 

*ducks*

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Rudder now all done and waiting for bottom paint.........oh yeah, I guess it needs to be fitted and installed too............

 

what, no tubercles?

 

 

*ducks*

We don't want to reveal those kind of secrets quite yet.

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Mems:

That's what I was thinking. With the flex that is inevitable, the thick fairing would fall out in chunks.

 

Mama don't allow no chunks around here.

 

I look at the pics of the fairing and I see smooth. I like smooth. I nused to smoke a British pipe tobacco called "Baby's Bottom,,,smooth as a baby's bottom" ( I'm not kidding)

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7070:

I didn't ask about the glass at the keel joint but here is what I suspect. There is a lot of fairing bog around those big bolt heads. It's thick, maybe as much as 1.25" thick in spots. There is no strength in the bog so the glass is there to keep it from separating from the grp skin and falling off. Maybe Kim can get a more detailed explanation tomorrow so I'll know too.

 

that's right, the idea is to keep the big-radius fillet of fairing bog in place; there will be some fairing on top of the glass, as well, but the bulk of the shape hiding the keel nuts is underneath the glass.

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we had to drape her to keep the nearby paint projects from messing up our nice finish job......

 

Ohh, how cute, Kim wraps up his baby.

 

So shoot me for being a smart ass, I it were my boat, I'd wrap it up too!

 

I agree. I can't remember any time sailing where I would have not wished for moire boat speed. Maybe if I was sliding down the face of a Nor Pac taiphoon swell I might want to slow down but that's what sea anchors are for.

I don't know the exact quote but it was from L. Francis and it was all about the most enjoyment you get sailing was from achieving the greatest speed. Not sure it is directly speed related or more to do mwith knwing you are making optimal use of the wind. If you can do that without hurting yourself I think that is a good thing.

 

Dang Bob, I got 9 knots out of my H28 with the kite up!

 

You should have seen the smiles!

 

I reckon we achieved the greatest speed that day.

 

FD

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actually I had nothing to do with the wrapping, the crew was very vested in keeping the nearby over spray off their very nice paint job.... they wrapped her.

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I agree. I can't remember any time sailing where I would have not wished for moire boat speed. Maybe if I was sliding down the face of a Nor Pac taiphoon swell I might want to slow down but that's what sea anchors are for.

I don't know the exact quote but it was from L. Francis and it was all about the most enjoyment you get sailing was from achieving the greatest speed. Not sure it is directly speed related or more to do mwith knwing you are making optimal use of the wind. If you can do that without hurting yourself I think that is a good thing.

I took a fellow out last weekend on my F31 who had never sailed a multihull before-= he is a 20-30 ft PHRF racer who owns a small ULDB type. We went sailing in Casco Bay where he sails a lot and he kept looking at his watch and mentioning how little time had gone by as we sailed from landmark to landmark. He was thinking about how fast we were going.

 

I was thinking about how sailing fast slows time down and lets me sail longer. Works for me.

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7070:

I didn't ask about the glass at the keel joint but here is what I suspect. There is a lot of fairing bog around those big bolt heads. It's thick, maybe as much as 1.25" thick in spots. There is no strength in the bog so the glass is there to keep it from separating from the grp skin and falling off. Maybe Kim can get a more detailed explanation tomorrow so I'll know too.

 

that's right, the idea is to keep the big-radius fillet of fairing bog in place; there will be some fairing on top of the glass, as well, but the bulk of the shape hiding the keel nuts is underneath the glass.

 

that makes sense - especially if you have no intention of removing the keel in the near future.

 

i'm sure you could cut through it into the fairing compound beneath pretty easily if you needed to

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Kim has no intention of removing the keel soon. Maybe never.

 

Correct, no reason to ever remove the keel as she should always go places on her own bottom.

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Keel on she will still fit into one of those weird looking Boeing "Dreamlifter" planes that they use to move 787 fuse segments...

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How's that tiller sculpture coming along, Kimb?

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How's that tiller sculpture coming along, Kimb?

Waiting for the tiller fitting so we know the connection measurements.

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Boat speed makes you a tactical genius.

I'm gonna use that!

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Jordan is figuring out the new backstay arrangement now that we have changed over to an integral hydraulic unit. No pictures yet.

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He is also doing the last fairing bits over the vacuum bagged eGlass covering the keel to hull fillet...



and the strong track is now installed on the mast....

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meanwhile somewhat of a disaster has appeared in the shop.....(hint: the last pictures shows the result of a shotgun blast on fiberglass.....)

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Shotgun blast? Your Canadian fisherman are much like our Canadian fisherman, eh?

Apparently it took place in Seattle not Canada. I don't have the entire story yet, but it did involve some drugs and blood.

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Gotta be quite the story re: those pictures. :o Any idea what happened?

 

Maybe this was the story of the person who stole a boat at the Seattle Yacht Queen City Club, was ramming other boats, and was stopped by a shotgun blast from a live aboard?

 

It was in the news a couple weeks ago.

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Gotta be quite the story re: those pictures. :o Any idea what happened?

 

Maybe this was the story of the person who stole a boat at the Seattle Yacht Club, was ramming other boats, and was stopped by a shotgun blast from a live aboard?

 

It was in the news a couple weeks ago.

 

bingo. it's gotta be. it was a crazy story - I'll try to find the link. this is one version of it:

 

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2013/09/e-man-with-no-pants-wrecks-seattle-marina/

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He is also doing the last fairing bits over the vacuum bagged eGlass covering the keel to hull fillet...

 

and the strong track is now installed on the mast....

Looks like a great paint finish on the spars, Kimb.

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Gotta be quite the story re: those pictures. :o Any idea what happened?

 

Maybe this was the story of the person who stole a boat at the Seattle Yacht Queen City Club, was ramming other boats, and was stopped by a shotgun blast from a live aboard?

 

It was in the news a couple weeks ago.

 

Yes, Queen City Yacht Club incident it was.

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He is also doing the last fairing bits over the vacuum bagged eGlass covering the keel to hull fillet...and the strong track is now installed on the mast....

 

So any bets how much chop it takes to get a wee bit o' cracking in the fillet? No weeping. Hmmm, 4 hours with the tide in SSE 18-28, Port Hudson to Bell Harbor. Just enough so reefing seems too much a PIA. Showing some TP 52 how it's done.

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He is also doing the last fairing bits over the vacuum bagged eGlass covering the keel to hull fillet...and the strong track is now installed on the mast....

 

So any bets how much chop it takes to get a wee bit o' cracking in the fillet? No weeping. Hmmm, 4 hours with the tide in SSE 18-28, Port Hudson to Bell Harbor. Just enough so reefing seems too much a PIA. Showing some TP 52 how it's done.

Oh ye of little faith...

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Fillets are a double edged sword, said Pooh. Fine for flow, but oooooh, the flexing! The ass snorted at this, but Pooh thought it sounded like a fart. Poot! poot!

 

They all fell down laughing, except for the boat. She floated in the water and worried. Her exhaust smelled like petrochemicals! And the sound was a small rhythmical splash in the water! Mainly. She wanted the Skipper to move her throttle lever. That would show them!

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Everything is going well on this project. I find Paul's continuing attempts at uncovering negative aspects to the build annoying.

As a designer I work towards a succesfull end with each project. Concerns are addressed and taken care of.

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If you saw the massive engineering that went into the fin and the fin to hull attachment, and the vacuum bagged epoxy saturated glass covering the fillet, you might not worry about cracks in that area.

 

I am not worried about them.

 

(The engineer Tim Nolan ignored my claims that this was only a daysailor and engineered her to fall off 30 foot waves during force ten storms in the middle of the Pacific. She is one very over engineered daysailor.)

 

(on a side note, when Jordan was planning the backstay fitting attachment to the aft-stem we discovered it would fall right at the point where two of the stringers came in. Talk about luck! That is about the best place we could have for a stout attachment point.)

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I think Paul is equating Kim's keel attachment method to his. They are very different in a number of ways. Kim has a massive internal s.s. grid system that takes the keel loads off the shell. For Kim's fin to move around is going to mean a lot of the internal structure will have to move with it. I can;t see that happening to a degree it would fracture the fairing which itself is glassed over. It's not just external bog.

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There are lots of thin skin aluminum boats with lots of bog, the hulls flex but the bog is remarkably resilient to cracking. The keel and structure of Kim's boat is extremely robust in design and execution, hard to believe cracking will be an issue.

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I am not finding fault with your boat design, Bob. Owning a boat is a complex affair, and as I have discovered, always has it's share of small surprises. And has been explained to me ad nauseum, everything bends. It's part of the engineering process. I think it's more the comradeship of boat ownership. We had a major adventure with a rock in B.C., had no water in the boat and could even motor a couple of days to get things repaired. After running and doing every maneuver I could think of for 20 minutes to avoid a very nasty tug wave I wound up falling 6' off it's wave with no cracks in anything. We have pulled Amati after a frisky winter of sailing and found cosmetic crazing and small cracks in the fillet and bottom paint around it. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE (including you) have assured us that it is normal and nothing to worry about. So we smooth things out, put on some bottom paint and go sailing again. It's part of the the ritual of the haul out to crane your neck as the hull clears the water and there's more than a bit of humor in it, judging from other sailboat owners.

 

I would say it's the practical reality of owning a boat: What did dragging those crab pots do? Oh crap, that submerged deadhead did what?? What was that scraping sound along the side of the hull? So THAT's what that thumping sound did! Maybe bashing upwind in 25+ into a gnarly head sea for 3 days was a judgement call.

 

I have had no complaints about Amati. You and everyone on this thread know that. I've had your back as long as SA has existed, and you and everyone here know it. I recommend you to everyone and anyone and you and everyone here know it. I and everyone I know who has deep draft (and a deep fin)pretty much has the same experience as far as what you can and can't do, as far as handling, navigation, weather etc. If there is no humor in it, what's the point? Boating is supposed to be fun.

 

Having a sailboat designed and built is a big intense experience. If there is no comic relief you can go a bit insane.

 

End of rant. Over and OUT.

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Paul:

I think you missed my point. But nevermind. Not important.

 

It's all fun. AMATI remains the boat I wish I had owned.

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Me too. When it was 'on the block' awhile back I was seriously considering cashing in all my securities and just Going For Broke. I

 

It's that neat a boat, imo.

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Me too. When it was 'on the block' awhile back I was seriously considering cashing in all my securities and just Going For Broke. I

 

It's that neat a boat, imo.

If I had not already started the Sliver Project I would have bought her the moment I saw her for sale.

 

(And I would have saved a ton of money doing so. But she doesn't have the second cool pointy end....so it all worked out OK.)

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Off topic, but...Interesting to see Amati's plumb (maybe even raked for'ard) fin configuration. Quite the opposite approach to Francis Lee's raked aft.

 

A bit unconventional, but I've seen it before - and on aero wings too. What was the design philosophy there, Bob?

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No philosophy. I just hit the "mirror" command button on acad by mistake.

Oh...OK. I'll fuck off then.

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ok

 

But heck sailby, you are in NZ, why don't you call my old pal Laurie up and ask him why he did a very similar keel on his big boat in Seattle, I forget the name. It was a retro fit keel and very much like the keel I did on AMATI. I'm sure Laurie would be happy to explain it to you. It's pretty much the same keel I did when I did a new keel for STEALTH CHICKEN. I probably explain it in my book. Kim's boat is a very different boat and needed it's own different heel to conform to some of Kim's requirements.

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ok

 

But heck sailby, you are in NZ, why don't you call my old pal Laurie up and ask him why he did a very similar keel on his big boat in Seattle, I forget the name. It was a retro fit keel and very much like the keel I did on AMATI. I'm sure Laurie would be happy to explain it to you. It's pretty much the same keel I did when I did a new keel for STEALTH CHICKEN. I probably explain it in my book. Kim's boat is a very different boat and needed it's own different heel to conform to some of Kim's requirements.

Thanks, Bob. I don't know, Laurie. But I did work with his first wife, Molly (Donovan) for a few years. A lovely woman she was too. Lost touch with her now though. Is Laurie still around these days?

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Sailby:

Yep, Laurie's still around but I'm affraid that his hearing is so bad he seldom answers the phone anymore. Pity, he's a great guy who knows a lot about boats. My ears are fine. My knees are fucked.

Laurie used to stop by my Shilshole Bay office from time to time. I think he had a Kiwi girlfriend in the neighborhood. He was always fun to shoot the shit with. Always very forthcoming with his ideas and opinions of other boayts and designers. Lots of fun to drink with.

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The fairing material might develop cracks? Or might not...

 

Either way: so what?

 

I'd love to see actual, on-water tests of two versions of the Sliver: one just faired and one (which will never happen) with absolutely no fairing on the keel joint. Just want to see how much difference we are talking about. My uneducated guess: the difference would be extremely difficult to detect.

 

It would be even more difficult to detect if the fairing cracked a bit, but did not fall off.

 

So if it cracks someday and Kim wants to go a tiny, tiny bit faster, he can replace it.

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Tom:

The keel flange is about an inch thick. The bolt heads are huge. the flange is recessed/. All in all it a pretty big "hole" to fill and fair.

AMATI despite my spec, did not have a recessed flange. The flange is external to the shell, the bolts welded into the flange plate and the fairing is a lot less extensive.

I prefer the recessed flange because I can get a much cleaner transtion from the shell to the fiun but it's a lot more work.

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Tom:

The keel flange is about an inch thick. The bolt heads are huge. the flange is recessed/. All in all it a pretty big "hole" to fill and fair.

AMATI despite my spec, did not have a recessed flange. The flange is external to the shell, the bolts welded into the flange plate and the fairing is a lot less extensive.

I prefer the recessed flange because I can get a much cleaner transtion from the shell to the fiun but it's a lot more work.

Well worth it though in my book.

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Tom:

The keel flange is about an inch thick. The bolt heads are huge. the flange is recessed/. All in all it a pretty big "hole" to fill and fair.

...

 

Ah, so in this case, not fairing would be a bit like dragging a bucket along.

 

Still, a pretty small bucket on a pretty big boat. Nothing compared to the empty trunk of ordinary centerboard boats when the board is down.

 

You can take a much more educated guess than I did, so what do you think? Unfaired Sliver vs faired Sliver - what would be the performance difference in practice? And would the difference be most noticeable upwind, downwind, or reaching at top speed?

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It is not just straight speed that you need to asses.

 

That much turbulence at the cord root causes havoc with flow on the keel, and can reduce lift dramatically and hence increasing leeway upwind.

 

I know, I know. Gentleman don't sail to windward. Tell that to the lee shore or your boss when your home marina is upwind on a Sunday afternoon!

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Paul:

I think you missed my point. But nevermind. Not important.

 

It's all fun. AMATI remains the boat I wish I had owned.

 

I remember seeing AMATI for sale, and having a little dream (well out of my price range). gorgeous boat!

I thought, "I wonder it the bulkhead that makes the forward end of the cockpit could be cut out to make quarter berths"

Then I realized, I'd missed the point. AMATI it great the way she is.

She is about a great sailing boat, not about making use out of berthing length.

Something we just don't see enough of these days.

 

FD

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Having been aboard Amati I can report that she is indeed a great boat!

 

(But she wasn't for sale when I started the Sliver project.)

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I had a couple of people contact me about changing AMATI's interior. I told them it couldn't be done.

 

Maybe the mark of a great design is when you can't change anything about it.

 

"I know it's a catchy tune Ludwig but I'd prefer the symphony it without any vocals."

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I had a couple of people contact me about changing AMATI's interior. I told them it couldn't be done.

 

Maybe the mark of a great design is when you can't change anything about it.

 

"I know it's a catchy tune Ludwig but I'd prefer the symphony it without any vocals."

 

The essence of wisdom is learning when to say "No".

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I had a couple of people contact me about changing AMATI's interior. I told them it couldn't be done.

 

Maybe the mark of a great design is when you can't change anything about it.

 

"I know it's a catchy tune Ludwig but I'd prefer the symphony it without any vocals."

The essence of wisdom is learning when to say "No".

It has as many notes as it needs; no more, no less.

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Project is stalled because we can't get some critical pieces. Keel fairing has continued and toe rail rub strips are being installed along with various other items. (Like the main electrical panel has been installed.)

 

The standing rigging has been delayed due to supplier problems. Also missing some additional rudder fittings.

 

But we never push the schedule on this project because we are doing everything right the first time.

 

Sadly I now doubt we will see her in the water in Nov.

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You need to have a stern word with your project manager Kim.

You mean with me? (I am the project manager)

 

I think a stern word with the people who bought Navtec would be more to the point.

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Dang , two weeks ago I was sailing across a sea in a beautiful Davidson , now its Friday lunchtime and I'm at a stupid desk.

 

I come here for my fix and........

 

No pressure , but people are depending on you Kim.

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Dang , two weeks ago I was sailing across a sea in a beautiful Davidson , now its Friday lunchtime and I'm at a stupid desk.

 

I come here for my fix and........

 

No pressure , but people are depending on you Kim.

Call Navtec and ask them why they can't get our parts to us, they are only a month+ late with them.......

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Dang , two weeks ago I was sailing across a sea in a beautiful Davidson , now its Friday lunchtime and I'm at a stupid desk.

 

I come here for my fix and........

 

No pressure , but people are depending on you Kim.

Call Navtec and ask them why they can't get our parts to us, they are only a month+ late with them.......

 

Can we quote you on that? Who should we call? :)

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Dang , two weeks ago I was sailing across a sea in a beautiful Davidson , now its Friday lunchtime and I'm at a stupid desk.

 

I come here for my fix and........

 

No pressure , but people are depending on you Kim.

 

Call Navtec and ask them why they can't get our parts to us, they are only a month+ late with them.......

Can we quote you on that? Who should we call? :)

Hey "Green Card" who should we call about the Navtec parts?

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Maybe I should call.

 

I say, "This is Olin Stephens and I'd like to speak to the guy in charge."

It always works.

The new owners might not even know who OS was......

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I know the feeling, Perkins put my boat out of commission for 8 weeks in 2009 waiting for a part. Just outright lied to me about where it was and when it'd arrive.. Good motor , lousy company.

 

Dang , two weeks ago I was sailing across a sea in a beautiful Davidson , now its Friday lunchtime and I'm at a stupid desk.

I come here for my fix and........

No pressure , but people are depending on you Kim.

Call Navtec and ask them why they can't get our parts to us, they are only a month+ late with them.......

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"lousey company"...get used to it, it's now the norm.

 

However what a huge opportunity for those who won't give in to being average. I wish I had the energy to go back into business, it would be sooooo easy to beat these people into bankruptcy.

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I know the feeling, Perkins put my boat out of commission for 8 weeks in 2009 waiting for a part. Just outright lied to me about where it was and when it'd arrive.. Good motor , lousy company.

 

Dang , two weeks ago I was sailing across a sea in a beautiful Davidson , now its Friday lunchtime and I'm at a stupid desk.

 

I come here for my fix and........

 

No pressure , but people are depending on you Kim.

Call Navtec and ask them why they can't get our parts to us, they are only a month+ late with them.......

Not just in the marine business. I have a $7M system out of service due to a fuel pump failure on a Kohler/JD industrial 125 KW Generator. Warranty covered failure. Part supposedly in stock with Kohler and Normal delivery of a part from their warehouse to the regional warranty folks is 7-10 days. It's been a month.

 

I have a very unhappy customer and Kohler could give a shit. I guess I'll look for a different supplier for the next buy but I'm afraid our penchant to internet shop and go for the absolutely lowest cost has created a world of internet storefronts who drop ship everything so no one holds stock on hand any more because they can;t afford to pay for inventory.

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......so no one holds stock on hand any more because they can;t afford to pay for inventory.

 

I'm in just such an industry, and we carry inventory. Perversely, the only reason we can afford to do so is because nobody else does, which means we get to triple our margin when someone can't wait for the factory to make X Y or Z.

 

Customer reaction to this is split roughly 50-50. 50% think we're the greatest thing since birth control, 50% think we're whoring thieves.

 

It's a mad mad world.

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......so no one holds stock on hand any more because they can;t afford to pay for inventory.

 

I'm in just such an industry, and we carry inventory. Perversely, the only reason we can afford to do so is because nobody else does, which means we get to triple our margin when someone can't wait for the factory to make X Y or Z.

 

Customer reaction to this is split roughly 50-50. 50% think we're the greatest thing since birth control, 50% think we're whoring thieves.

 

It's a mad mad world.

 

I've seen a company pay $2,000 for a $500 part, it is actually very normal in an industrial setting to do so rather than wait for a new batch to be made from the company supplier under warranty. Many of not most companies are will to roll the dice on getting ripped off on a small part down the road rather than stocking a massive inventory, especially if investors are involved for some reason. Maintenance departments hate it when the order to have another one on hand through the supplier is then stopped, after the fact and they have just returned from the airport, but usually can't get past the bean counters.

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......so no one holds stock on hand any more because they can;t afford to pay for inventory.

 

I'm in just such an industry, and we carry inventory. Perversely, the only reason we can afford to do so is because nobody else does, which means we get to triple our margin when someone can't wait for the factory to make X Y or Z.

 

Customer reaction to this is split roughly 50-50. 50% think we're the greatest thing since birth control, 50% think we're whoring thieves.

 

It's a mad mad world.

 

I've seen a company pay $2,000 for a $500 part, it is actually very normal in an industrial setting to do so rather than wait for a new batch to be made from the company supplier under warranty. Many of not most companies are will to roll the dice on getting ripped off on a small part down the road rather than stocking a massive inventory, especially if investors are involved for some reason. Maintenance departments hate it when the order to have another one on hand through the supplier is then stopped, after the fact and they have just returned from the airport, but usually can't get past the bean counters.

 

Agreed.

 

In my case, I've been waiting almost a month for a lift pump for a John Deere industrial Diesel that Kohler supposedly has in stock. Crazy. If It did't invalidate the warranty, I'd find a pump and get the damn thing running.

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Speaking of lousy companies. On average what percent of the marine industry falls into the "lousy" company category. My first-hand experience over the last 2 years would put it somewhere in the 50-75% range. I am regularly and repeatedly astonished at the bad service, bad response time, bad follow through, bad quality, bad websites, bad, bad, bad... Unfortunately, in my experience most of those have been the small, local operations. I try to support them, but they don't seem to care. Very frustrating. It seems that any competent person could pick a niche in the marine industry and simply by running the company well (by any other industries standards) destroy the competition.

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Roleur - I agree with this and have experienced the same for the past 20 years of boat ownership. I have definitely had good service, but it is the exception. I've developed the opinion that there isn't enough money in the industry, in most cases, to lull "competent" people away from their comfortable and better paying jobs. I have had some better experiences lately, so maybe the economic downturn pushed some people to try their hand. It's worth noting that Kim has obviously been pleased with most of his build - so he's found the good ones.

 

 

Speaking of lousy companies. On average what percent of the marine industry falls into the "lousy" company category. My first-hand experience over the last 2 years would put it somewhere in the 50-75% range. I am regularly and repeatedly astonished at the bad service, bad response time, bad follow through, bad quality, bad websites, bad, bad, bad... Unfortunately, in my experience most of those have been the small, local operations. I try to support them, but they don't seem to care. Very frustrating. It seems that any competent person could pick a niche in the marine industry and simply by running the company well (by any other industries standards) destroy the competition.

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