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bowboy

the unofficial official 2011 j109 sa thread

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On the same plane as the axis of the clevis pin, such that the tape is touching, but not bent by, the drum.

awesome. you rock. thank you!

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I am curious about your comment on having the weight forward to get the stern out of the water. I was doing that, but then it was suggested to me that it is better to have the weight in the back of the boat to get the bow up and therefore have less wetted surface and hence last resistance.

 

Do any of the other 109s out there have an option? Should I jam everyone around the shrouds on the windward side or put all of the weight in the back, like I used to on my Melges 24? Of course, we were trying to get the Melges to plane, so that is a whole 'nother story (need a J/105 to plane, right???)

I think it depends on how much it blows. Forward in the light stuff, moving aft as we get powered up.

 

But it would be great to get input from people who experimented with weight. Also upwind.

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I am curious about your comment on having the weight forward to get the stern out of the water. I was doing that, but then it was suggested to me that it is better to have the weight in the back of the boat to get the bow up and therefore have less wetted surface and hence last resistance.

 

Do any of the other 109s out there have an option? Should I jam everyone around the shrouds on the windward side or put all of the weight in the back, like I used to on my Melges 24? Of course, we were trying to get the Melges to plane, so that is a whole 'nother story (need a J/105 to plane, right???)

I think it depends on how much it blows. Forward in the light stuff, moving aft as we get powered up.

 

But it would be great to get input from people who experimented with weight. Also upwind.

Same thing here downwind. When it is really light (0-6) I will actually put some weight down to leeward to help with the sail shape. As the breeze comes up (6-12) the crew knows to move up to the windward rail in the center of the boat and hike to help with the kite rotation. As it gets very breezy (12+ sadly is VERY around here) they start moving aft.

 

Upwind is a similar story. In the very light stuff we put a lot of bodies down on the leeward rail to promote some sort of sail shape and the get the boat moving. As soon as we can we start moving people up to the windward cabintop, then as the breeze builds we get them hiking. I never have anyone forward of the shrouds though.

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I am curious about your comment on having the weight forward to get the stern out of the water. I was doing that, but then it was suggested to me that it is better to have the weight in the back of the boat to get the bow up and therefore have less wetted surface and hence last resistance.

 

Do any of the other 109s out there have an option? Should I jam everyone around the shrouds on the windward side or put all of the weight in the back, like I used to on my Melges 24? Of course, we were trying to get the Melges to plane, so that is a whole 'nother story (need a J/105 to plane, right???)

I think it depends on how much it blows. Forward in the light stuff, moving aft as we get powered up.

 

But it would be great to get input from people who experimented with weight. Also upwind.

Same thing here downwind. When it is really light (0-6) I will actually put some weight down to leeward to help with the sail shape. As the breeze comes up (6-12) the crew knows to move up to the windward rail in the center of the boat and hike to help with the kite rotation. As it gets very breezy (12+ sadly is VERY around here) they start moving aft.

 

Upwind is a similar story. In the very light stuff we put a lot of bodies down on the leeward rail to promote some sort of sail shape and the get the boat moving. As soon as we can we start moving people up to the windward cabintop, then as the breeze builds we get them hiking. I never have anyone forward of the shrouds though.

on tumbler and on all of the 109s i've sailed on, weight forward off the breeze has been the norm until the wind really pipes up. by forward i mean clustered around the shrouds, either to leeward when no breeze or to weather when there is some more. sometimes even one body forward of the shrouds. the theory is simple - the boat is fatter in the ass (bless her heart) so if you're going to use weight to raise some of the boat out of the water, use it to raise the part with more wetted surface area. definitely keep weight as low as possible to maintain a low center of gravity, which will keep the boat more solid under the chute.

 

as the breeze builds people in general start moving back to keep the boat feeling right, until at 20+ knots people are more back than they are forward, as you start to run the risk of burying the bow as speed builds. but only once have i ever been on a 109 with all the weight clustered on the windward quarter melges 24 style, which was during a squall at kwrw when we suddenly had 25-35 and had a hell of a run before they called it. and like you say - you obviously need a 105 if you want to plane ;)

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Hey North East J/109's (Looking at you TWM, Stumbler & J/109Guy)! I'm organizing the CPYC One Design Regatta in Westport CT this upcoming June 4th and 5th and all of a sudden there has been interest in having a J/109 fleet. While I'm trying to bring together boats for a class down here I was wondering if any of you guys would be open to making the journey and to do some great OD racing on LIS. The regatta is going to be tons of fun with almost everything included in the entry fee (dockage, hoist if you trailer, breakfast both days, dinner saturday, beer on Saturday, T-Shirts and stuffed skippers bags) and it would be really cool to get some boats from out of the area. What do you think? Put a couple hours on the old iron gennaker to come race in a different locale against some great competition?

 

http://www.wix.com/cedarpointod/2011

lh - sounds awesome, but that's the wknd before my wedding so it's a no go. maybe next year!

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Hey North East J/109's (Looking at you TWM, Stumbler & J/109Guy)! I'm organizing the CPYC One Design Regatta in Westport CT this upcoming June 4th and 5th and all of a sudden there has been interest in having a J/109 fleet. While I'm trying to bring together boats for a class down here I was wondering if any of you guys would be open to making the journey and to do some great OD racing on LIS. The regatta is going to be tons of fun with almost everything included in the entry fee (dockage, hoist if you trailer, breakfast both days, dinner saturday, beer on Saturday, T-Shirts and stuffed skippers bags) and it would be really cool to get some boats from out of the area. What do you think? Put a couple hours on the old iron gennaker to come race in a different locale against some great competition?

 

http://www.wix.com/cedarpointod/2011

lh - sounds awesome, but that's the wknd before my wedding so it's a no go. maybe next year!

 

Tell your friends!

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has anyone else run into the annoying problem that the fridge drain runs into the bilge? has anyone re-routed that?

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has anyone else run into the annoying problem that the fridge drain runs into the bilge? has anyone re-routed that?

Was the same on my 105, can result in some gunge/smells. I didn't re-route. What I would say is that the fridge fitted to this European boat is very noisy, really noticable at night when berthed.

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has anyone else run into the annoying problem that the fridge drain runs into the bilge? has anyone re-routed that?

 

Poor engineering on that detail.

 

We had the commissioning yard put a foot pump for melt water under the sink, next to the emergency fresh water foot pump. Teed in to the sink drain well above heeled waterline.

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we may end up just stopping up the drainage hole and using the roving bilge hose to pump water out of fridge when necessary - it's only used to hold beer, water, and sometimes sandwiches but the ice melt in that flat bilge is really annoying considering how dry we have the boat otherwise right now.

 

on to more important things - no one really replied to my question about which holes in the spreader tips your upper shrouds are led through. i emailed with north's 109 guy over the weekend and he thinks it's usually the aft holes all the way up (ours go through aft holes in bottom spreader tip and forward holes in upper spreader tip) but doesn't think it is likely to make that much difference. i'm just worried that we are putting loads on upper spreaders in ways they weren't designed to take, and that our tension readings will be off.

 

next time a few of you are at your boats can you take a look and just let me know how yours are led?

 

thanks!

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Not me, am one of 9 J109's doing RORC offshore, you should see the fleet beating towards Portland by late afternoon

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Anyone else going to the UK nationals? Starts Friday down in Weymouth.

 

Yep. And according to the pre event press release - we're the pissheads.

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Moojo can't make the nationals this year but looking at them next year hopefully!

 

So who's heading down to Guernsey for the JCup then this year and we are wanting to see how we do against the rest of the UK fleet....

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Yeah still dont understand why they put it the same weekend as the RORC race, seems to have hurt entries.

 

http://www.sailracer.org/events/entries-v2.asp?eventid=79044

 

Down to 24 from normal numbers of about 30. Based on the recent solent results my money is on one of Velvet Elvis, Jahmali and J Dream.

Weather looks like it should be good as well.

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Moojo can't make the nationals this year but looking at them next year hopefully!

 

So who's heading down to Guernsey for the JCup then this year and we are wanting to see how we do against the rest of the UK fleet....

 

I did the first J-Cup in 2000 in Guernsey, good times. At first this one looked like a good schedule spot just after RORC St Malo but it's mid week event rather than a 3 day weekend (so 5 days holiday required). Sadly we'll probably deliver the boat from St Malo to St Peter Port July 10th post RORC then fly home before collecting it the following weekend.

 

PS as we're doing St Malo with crew PM me if you want a spot aboard or better still convince Moojo to so St Malo.

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That was an excellent match race last night stumbler! Where did the rest of our fleet go? Great comeback for you after that over early. Your gybes looked terrific, your boat really seemed to rocket out of them each time you gybed around. It's gonna be a fun summer in the harbor!!!

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That was an excellent match race last night stumbler! Where did the rest of our fleet go? Great comeback for you after that over early. Your gybes looked terrific, your boat really seemed to rocket out of them each time you gybed around. It's gonna be a fun summer in the harbor!!!

thanks z. definitely a lot of fun, we're looking forward to more and hopefully next time it will be us by 13 seconds ;) if every night on boston harbor this summer is even close to that i'll be very happy!

 

we're also really looking forward to getting some practice time with our new phrf sails so we can start racing with them, but don't know if that will happen before the second series.

 

i find that the 109 really responds well to aggressive roll gybes in the light-medium stuff. you get a nice squirt forward.

 

see you next wednesday!

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That was an excellent match race last night stumbler! Where did the rest of our fleet go? Great comeback for you after that over early. Your gybes looked terrific, your boat really seemed to rocket out of them each time you gybed around. It's gonna be a fun summer in the harbor!!!

oops. i didn't take your over early comment literally, i just thought you noticed we had a bad start and thought that was why. but we were indeed scored ocs. i actually thought we were late to the line but i guess it's possible we got forced over while we were running the line and then either didn't clear every inch of our transom or we were obscured by the boat behind us. never heard it on the radio. oh well :(

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on the note of match racing.... a few years ago challenged the other local 109 (in tampa bay) to a match race during St. Pete NOODs (we didnt have a class). That was positively some of the most fun i ever had sailing that boat. i think we used a combination of drop marks and St. Pete beercan fixed marks. Its actually one of my regrets that we never got around to doing it again. If you guys up in Boston ever organize an informal match race, give me a shout. cant say that my prior experience would a be huge asset, but its fun as hell forcing that boat around the course in a match race.

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Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

 

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

 

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

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Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

 

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

 

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

 

Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

 

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

 

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.

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wam, thanks. JD have a decent amount of experience in the boat (thisnisntheir second win) and we've always noticed they go white sails only from about low 20 knots and that's inshore where the waves are smaller. We put the kite up in 18 and were ok, it was quite interesting that as waves got bigger and breeze went to 23 we started to loose it, the waves would kick the stern round and it was hard to catch before the round up got out of control. We are klicking overselves as we looked pretty golden at the top mark and couldn't hold it.

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What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

Doublehanded in waves we find that there's a fine line between being ok/fun under the small kite (up to 24-28 knots depending on sea state) and getting caught by waves and puffs in more wind. In the long run think it's a good idea to back down early and go with a jib or a jib top.

 

This is really when you long for a J/111 to get the boat moving instead och being stuck in the water. We've pushed the limits a few times which resulted in speeds of +20 kots and large bills from the sailmaker :lol:

 

3640987368_b60430c38a.jpg

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Blur thanks, 21.68 is very impressive on a J109 ! We found at 20 knots breeze we were fine and 25 we were not.

 

The better downwind boats, JPK 960 and 1010, Arch 35 and J105's got us. In practice when I had the 105 we used to pray for this sort wind as we knew we had a very good chance, horses for courses!

 

EDIT: Blur you have a #1 and thus a large jibtop, any thoughts on a #3 sized JT ? (I've used one on a TP52 and it worked pretty well)

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Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

 

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

 

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

 

Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

 

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

 

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.

 

Jambalaya - what sort of TWA were you trying to acheive?

 

Blurs comments are spot on, and you can't get away from the fact the 109 does need some weight - as you noticed the fully crewed guys were ok - they would undoubtedly have been stacked on the weather rail. I would also echo wam's comments that heating up in that much breeze with the tack all the way down makes things more stable. If you can get the boat unstuck you can bring her down at speed. Needs 27+ TWS to do this though and don't know if thats possible two up. As a radical suggestion, what about a deeper rudder? MIght make things more forgiving in the waves.

 

Don't think the JD guys would go whites only much under 30 knots. They only went whites once this weekend on the 2nd windy run on Sunday - steady 28 TWS - the highest gust I saw was 33. By this time they were in a commanding position in the series and 1st in the race. They had also already blown the A2 the day before. VE who were second in series and chasing tried to hold the kite but got a twist in the gybe.

 

Regarding the nationals, on the water was really good - very good PRO - lots of time on the radio telling us what was going on - what his thoughts were, bollocking us for starts, and good use of the black flag. I've real respect for the guys in the RIBS after two days of 25+ TWS - it couldn't have been fun. Racing was pretty tight and there was even some semblence of rules observance at the front of the fleet. The social was appauling though, highlighted by them hiring out the sailing centre for a wedding on the sat night - WTF???!!.

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Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

 

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

 

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

 

sound like it was a hard but tough race! the j111 basically planned from the rock back not dipping below 15kts and topped out at 22.6kts with their jibtop, i agree with the jibtop being a good sail for when it's too windy for a kite (a well designed JT should be able to fly in 12kts tight reaching to 40kts blast reaching) but having done a previous delivery on a 109 from dartmouth in 20-25kts we had a small A5 that we could reach with and even have a play on the waves (all be it in the pitch black!) but with the sheets locked off and about a foot and a half of tack eased just to keep the bow out the waves it was a fun boat to helm back. just had an experience using a furling A5 on the new j108 today, it's a really neat piece of kit making it the easiest kite douse ever! worth a look at

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wam & pjrs - very interesting and thanks

 

We noted of the two 109s in front of us the boat sailing lower broached much more, we put that down to crew work but perhaps it was as you describe an issue of stability. We were trying to work the boat and waves for max speed, perhaps a little higher would have helped and with a reef in the main. Wasn't looking at numbers for TWA, we were taking a line between the two 109s just ahead. We kept the tack down, for me that would be normal practice in those sort of waves as you are typically weaving around.

 

My immediate thought was a bigger rudder would have helped but that's not an option, cost and keeping the boat OD for occasional events and re-sale.

 

JL92s - furling kite could work but will not make the budgetary considerations, already spending more than I wanted ! I'd probably do a JT before a furling kite. I'm pricing up a whisker pole, bit cruisey/old school but could be effective.

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on to more important things - no one really replied to my question about which holes in the spreader tips your upper shrouds are led through. i emailed with north's 109 guy over the weekend and he thinks it's usually the aft holes all the way up (ours go through aft holes in bottom spreader tip and forward holes in upper spreader tip) but doesn't think it is likely to make that much difference. i'm just worried that we are putting loads on upper spreaders in ways they weren't designed to take, and that our tension readings will be off.

 

next time a few of you are at your boats can you take a look and just let me know how yours are led?

 

thanks!

Ours is in the forward hole as well. I can't imagine that it makes much difference.

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Yeah still dont understand why they put it the same weekend as the RORC race, seems to have hurt entries.

 

http://www.sailracer...p?eventid=79044

 

Down to 24 from normal numbers of about 30. Based on the recent solent results my money is on one of Velvet Elvis, Jahmali and J Dream.

Weather looks like it should be good as well.

 

Class organised the Nationals before the RORC race schedule for 2011 was released. About to encounter the same problem for 2012!

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wam & pjrs - very interesting and thanks

 

We noted of the two 109s in front of us the boat sailing lower broached much more, we put that down to crew work but perhaps it was as you describe an issue of stability. We were trying to work the boat and waves for max speed, perhaps a little higher would have helped and with a reef in the main. Wasn't looking at numbers for TWA, we were taking a line between the two 109s just ahead. We kept the tack down, for me that would be normal practice in those sort of waves as you are typically weaving around.

 

My immediate thought was a bigger rudder would have helped but that's not an option, cost and keeping the boat OD for occasional events and re-sale.

 

JL92s - furling kite could work but will not make the budgetary considerations, already spending more than I wanted ! I'd probably do a JT before a furling kite. I'm pricing up a whisker pole, bit cruisey/old school but could be effective.

 

Been meaning to ask you how you managed to get your rating down to 1.011? Is this the lowest IRC rated J109?

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Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

 

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

 

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

 

Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

 

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

 

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.

 

Jambalaya - what sort of TWA were you trying to acheive?

 

Blurs comments are spot on, and you can't get away from the fact the 109 does need some weight - as you noticed the fully crewed guys were ok - they would undoubtedly have been stacked on the weather rail. I would also echo wam's comments that heating up in that much breeze with the tack all the way down makes things more stable. If you can get the boat unstuck you can bring her down at speed. Needs 27+ TWS to do this though and don't know if thats possible two up. As a radical suggestion, what about a deeper rudder? MIght make things more forgiving in the waves.

 

Don't think the JD guys would go whites only much under 30 knots. They only went whites once this weekend on the 2nd windy run on Sunday - steady 28 TWS - the highest gust I saw was 33. By this time they were in a commanding position in the series and 1st in the race. They had also already blown the A2 the day before. VE who were second in series and chasing tried to hold the kite but got a twist in the gybe.

 

Regarding the nationals, on the water was really good - very good PRO - lots of time on the radio telling us what was going on - what his thoughts were, bollocking us for starts, and good use of the black flag. I've real respect for the guys in the RIBS after two days of 25+ TWS - it couldn't have been fun. Racing was pretty tight and there was even some semblence of rules observance at the front of the fleet. The social was appauling though, highlighted by them hiring out the sailing centre for a wedding on the sat night - WTF???!!.

 

 

 

Unfair re social at WPNSA - great hog roast on Friday night (although admittedly not for the veggies) and the band and dinner at the prizegiving were excellent. The party went on until the small hours. If you want to organise next time I am sure the Committee would appreciate the assistance!

 

 

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Anyone else going to the UK nationals? Starts Friday down in Weymouth.

 

Yep. And according to the pre event press release - we're the pissheads.

 

You sailed well and drank well!

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Quite a race this weekend, upwind for 120 miles in 15-25 and downwind for 110 in 20-35

 

We are improving upwind but downwind in that breeze and decent sized following seas was not good on the boat. We flew the A4 which is I guess around 90sqm for 20 miles but lots of broaches and sailed the last 80 miles under white sails and most of that main only as we were still broaching under jib and main. We did have two 109s ahead who held kites but they were fully crewed, we were two up. A series of better dowwind boats came past rock solid with kites up (A35 asym, JPK 960, Bene 10.7, and all the 105s)

 

What's the experience of this breeze strength (offshore ideally) in waves ? Too often the waves slewed the stern around and it's very hard to catch it with the helm. Right now a whisker pole for the jib to go wing and wing seems the best idea, rather old school but we thought that whilst on the long run and it's been suggested to me. Reefed main and A4 ?

 

Not sure what you can do, main thing we have always found is stacking the back of the boat, but that is with a full crew. What we have found sometimes is that having our A5 up 95sqm and 1.5 oz, and sailing slightly higher seems to make the boat more stable as the kite rotates less during the waves. The other aspect is having someone playing the kicker all the time, again hard double handed. I think the reefed main would probably reduce the broaching tendency but would make the hoists and drops harder due to less blanketing. We have also discussed on our boat the possbility of adding a fractional kite halyard and a heavy fractional kite, but decided that as the forestay is so high its not worth it, but may be worth it if you are doing a lot of double handed.

 

As well we did the nationals this weekend down in Weymouth, the on the water stuff was done well but the socail side was not great. 1st day had wind from 8-20 with some massive shifts comming in. 2nd day had 20-25 at the beginning and built through the day to 25-30 when they canned the fourth race. Large amounts of damage throughout the fleet. Final day, 1 hour postponement, went out had one race by the end of it the wind was consistently over 30 so they abandoned the rest of the races. Most boats were'nt flying kites on the second downwind leg of the one race they got in.

 

Congratulations to J-Dream who put in a very strong finish in the windy conditions to take the win.

 

Wam - what was wrong with the socials? There were free drinks at the start of the two socials and one night for crews to investigate the delights of Weymouth. Trying to cater for all tastes is impossible!

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wam & pjrs - very interesting and thanks

 

We noted of the two 109s in front of us the boat sailing lower broached much more, we put that down to crew work but perhaps it was as you describe an issue of stability. We were trying to work the boat and waves for max speed, perhaps a little higher would have helped and with a reef in the main. Wasn't looking at numbers for TWA, we were taking a line between the two 109s just ahead. We kept the tack down, for me that would be normal practice in those sort of waves as you are typically weaving around.

 

My immediate thought was a bigger rudder would have helped but that's not an option, cost and keeping the boat OD for occasional events and re-sale.

 

JL92s - furling kite could work but will not make the budgetary considerations, already spending more than I wanted ! I'd probably do a JT before a furling kite. I'm pricing up a whisker pole, bit cruisey/old school but could be effective.

 

Been meaning to ask you how you managed to get your rating down to 1.011? Is this the lowest IRC rated J109?

 

 

There is a nano second when you can tell the boat is about to broach. Play the kicker and the main, ease the kite and you can usually recover it. Difficult when 2-handed!

 

She goes dead downwind with white sails and in high 20knots it is quicker than with the kite if you have to gybe. Tried and tested against others with and without. Evident in the last race of the Nationals.

 

 

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on to more important things - no one really replied to my question about which holes in the spreader tips your upper shrouds are led through. i emailed with north's 109 guy over the weekend and he thinks it's usually the aft holes all the way up (ours go through aft holes in bottom spreader tip and forward holes in upper spreader tip) but doesn't think it is likely to make that much difference. i'm just worried that we are putting loads on upper spreaders in ways they weren't designed to take, and that our tension readings will be off.

 

next time a few of you are at your boats can you take a look and just let me know how yours are led?

 

thanks!

Ours is in the forward hole as well. I can't imagine that it makes much difference.

thanks twm. as long as the rig continues to look straight and not come down down i think we'll leave it until the offseason :)

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J109

 

I agree the hog roast on the first night was good. The issues i think came with the other two nights, the first as someone has said was the wedding in the bar on sat which meant you had to drink in the cafeteria or find somewhere else. I think the main issue for the last night was that a lot of boats seemed to have gone home and therefore the really large room felt rather empty.

 

But having organised events like this before i appreciate the difficulties the committee face and would like to thank them for the effort they put it. Also i will echo pjrs in saying the PRO was excellent.

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Yeah still dont understand why they put it the same weekend as the RORC race, seems to have hurt entries.

 

http://www.sailracer...p?eventid=79044

 

Down to 24 from normal numbers of about 30. Based on the recent solent results my money is on one of Velvet Elvis, Jahmali and J Dream.

Weather looks like it should be good as well.

 

Class organised the Nationals before the RORC race schedule for 2011 was released. About to encounter the same problem for 2012!

 

Ah didnt realise this, although even if there is a clash next year, should have less of an effect in a non fastnet year.

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J109

 

I agree the hog roast on the first night was good. The issues i think came with the other two nights, the first as someone has said was the wedding in the bar on sat which meant you had to drink in the cafeteria or find somewhere else. I think the main issue for the last night was that a lot of boats seemed to have gone home and therefore the really large room felt rather empty.

 

Sounds like that was individual boat's issue. Good thing neither Stalker or Shiva won as there would have been nobody to award the trophy too!

 

Saturday night gave time for trip to Weymouth or many went to The Cove pub which was rammed on Thursday night too.

 

But having organised events like this before i appreciate the difficulties the committee face and would like to thank them for the effort they put it. Also i will echo pjrs in saying the PRO was excellent.

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Thanks for the further feedback on performance and sailing technique, welcome to SA "J109"

 

I've raced against 109s since they came out, inc first two years before they had any OD, we have certainly observed that over 20 knots they often go to white sails and this includes the very best best boats like J-Dream and Jamahli (most recently at windy Dartweek 2010) - they wouldn't do this without good reason. As I noted at 25+ we couldn't even sail with full and and jib given the large waves - it was main only DDW. This was during the day too, we need a plan for at night when tired, with the 105 for example you can put the pilot on as it doesn't get tired and confused. I'm not sure the pilot could drive the 109 downwind in those conditions.

 

The rating of the boat, #357 previously Munkenbeck and Partners was 1.029 Endorsed I understand. All I've done is rate for a #3 only, it's a new sail sightly larger than the OD #3 at HSA 29.46. The rating came out at 1.011 - it's not endorsed as Ultimate Sails are not yet registered as an approved measurer. We have OD main and kite - both from Elvstrom from 2008. I have a new AP kite coming from Ultimate. The boat has been weighed & measured as per the Endorsed Certificate, its got plenty of options like heating and auto-pilot and I'm not exactly a weight-Nazi either in terms of what we carry when racing, coffee pots, multiple pans, baking trays and beers don't weigh much anyway and improve crew morale! EDIT: the boat was coded for charter and so has 5 fire-extinguishers including one of the largest I've ever seen on a boat, that'll come off for the Fastnet !

 

The RORC always have races on the May Bank Holidays, so to say the J109 nationals were organized first is a bit cheeky <_<

 

It's actually really good to see 9 J019's racing RORC as historically participation has been quite light from the fleet (given there are 40-50 boats on South Coast), certainly in comparison to say the J105 fleet where 50% of the boats would regularly race offshore. It has really helped us to be able to "measure up", we were thrilled to round Eddystone after 130 miles upwind in 10-25 knots next to the two leading J109's both with crew (8 people on JIBE).The race showed in 20-35 we have no chance of matching crewed 109's downwind nor 2-handed J105's/JPK's and A35's - what we must do is maximise our performance, "be as good as we can be" and all that cliched bollix :lol:

 

Finally - stumbler, I think our cap shrouds are in the rear most holes, but after the long windy race perhaps I wasn't seeing straight. Will get you a photo if I visit the boat this weekend, for the avoidance of doubt.

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more in the 25k+ range they go DDW in whites, most people were flying their kites in the 20-25k range, and the top half of the fleet were holding them most of the time in the 25+ range, stalker did a brilliant last run, just the jibes that arn't so slick as the whites. A very loaded up boat in these conditions especially compared to the more transitional hulls like you were mentioning.

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if you can be prepared to potentially lose sails and broach then it can be worth putting kites up in strong wind because from what i've heard is that with serious poking a j109 will pick up and go in over 35kts of wind to 15+kts speed, supreme helming and perfect trimming combined with titanium balls should do it.

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i think the 109 is a very fun boat under kite in breeze, with two caveats - you need weight (sorry jambalaya!) and they don't seem to "settle in" to a groove when going deep like some (especially pole) boats so it's nice to have the ability to heat up a smidge more than you might normally on a boat like that in big breeze (trimming kite to it but keeping the main well eased). however, i haven't done anything offshore on these boats, so my experience with waves is probably very different than those of you who have. the titanium balls jl92s mentioned would probably help with a big following sea at night :)

 

one other thing - we have a sort of mystery chicken kite that came with the boat. it clearly was once a class sail as it has tags, but it's been cut down a bunch. my brother in law used it for a double handed delivery last year in pretty heavy air and gave rave reviews - i think they were pretty solidly in the low-mid teens for hours on end. i'll ask him about it and if it points to any potential sail inventory ideas for jambalaya and other short-handers i'll post his thoughts here.

 

also, thanks jambalaya for the additional data point on shrouds :) i'll keep collecting them as long as people keep chiming in - might be interesting to see if us and twb are anomalies or if the fleet is split as to how the cap shrouds are led.

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on to more important things - no one really replied to my question about which holes in the spreader tips your upper shrouds are led through. i emailed with north's 109 guy over the weekend and he thinks it's usually the aft holes all the way up (ours go through aft holes in bottom spreader tip and forward holes in upper spreader tip) but doesn't think it is likely to make that much difference. i'm just worried that we are putting loads on upper spreaders in ways they weren't designed to take, and that our tension readings will be off.

 

next time a few of you are at your boats can you take a look and just let me know how yours are led?

 

thanks!

Ours is in the forward hole as well. I can't imagine that it makes much difference.

 

 

We definitely ran the main shrouds in the aft holes on both spreaders on our (former) UK based J109's and here's one of those pictures sailmakers love to take - with a fair bit of backstay on..... DDW, white sails are definitely the way to go in 28 KTS plus, unless very flat water and even then, the helm and ALL of the crew have to be confident enough to gybe at speed and be able to nail everyone perfectly. Any extra speed gained is far outweighed by WHEN it all goes wrong. For inshore two handed races, we generally white sailed above 18-20 kts but mainly because it becomes too hard to get it down at that point!

post-10195-030859300 1306950266_thumb.jpg

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Thanks for the further feedback on performance and sailing technique, welcome to SA "J109"

 

I've raced against 109s since they came out, inc first two years before they had any OD, we have certainly observed that over 20 knots they often go to white sails and this includes the very best best boats like J-Dream and Jamahli (most recently at windy Dartweek 2010) - they wouldn't do this without good reason. As I noted at 25+ we couldn't even sail with full and and jib given the large waves - it was main only DDW. This was during the day too, we need a plan for at night when tired, with the 105 for example you can put the pilot on as it doesn't get tired and confused. I'm not sure the pilot could drive the 109 downwind in those conditions.

 

The rating of the boat, #357 previously Munkenbeck and Partners was 1.029 Endorsed I understand. All I've done is rate for a #3 only, it's a new sail sightly larger than the OD #3 at HSA 29.46. The rating came out at 1.011 - it's not endorsed as Ultimate Sails are not yet registered as an approved measurer. We have OD main and kite - both from Elvstrom from 2008. I have a new AP kite coming from Ultimate. The boat has been weighed & measured as per the Endorsed Certificate, its got plenty of options like heating and auto-pilot and I'm not exactly a weight-Nazi either in terms of what we carry when racing, coffee pots, multiple pans, baking trays and beers don't weigh much anyway and improve crew morale! EDIT: the boat was coded for charter and so has 5 fire-extinguishers including one of the largest I've ever seen on a boat, that'll come off for the Fastnet !

 

The RORC always have races on the May Bank Holidays, so to say the J109 nationals were organized first is a bit cheeky dry.gif

 

It's actually really good to see 9 J019's racing RORC as historically participation has been quite light from the fleet (given there are 40-50 boats on South Coast), certainly in comparison to say the J105 fleet where 50% of the boats would regularly race offshore. It has really helped us to be able to "measure up", we were thrilled to round Eddystone after 130 miles upwind in 10-25 knots next to the two leading J109's both with crew (8 people on JIBE).The race showed in 20-35 we have no chance of matching crewed 109's downwind nor 2-handed J105's/JPK's and A35's - what we must do is maximise our performance, "be as good as we can be" and all that cliched bollix :lol:

 

Finally - stumbler, I think our cap shrouds are in the rear most holes, but after the long windy race perhaps I wasn't seeing straight. Will get you a photo if I visit the boat this weekend, for the avoidance of doubt.

 

You can hardly call Dartweek a serious regatta, definately not worth blowing a kite for. And for your information, J-Dream would never go to white sail in anything less than 35 kts. They have the crew to handle it and the best helm. I can remember having the A2 up having gusts of over 40 kts and a steady 30 + kts when the boat planed for the whole run at 19 kts going from 6th to 1st...

 

A larger #3 with a lower rating??? How does that work?

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Dartweek is pretty serious, certainly better standard of sailing than Cowes Week or most of the regular IRC regattas in the Solent (exlcuding things like IRC Nationals)

 

I've sailed against JD a lot in the 105 (over 3 or 4 seasons in the class at same time as them) and observed them on the 109 at plenty of events and they are frequently on white sails below 30 knots (even on the 105 which is a better boat downwind). That's because it's faster in the 109 that way.

 

With the #1 the rating was 1.029 (from memory) with the "large 3" its 1.011 changing nothing else.

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Jambalaya, you may have raced against them in the 105. When they got the 109 they changed a few of the crew. Having done their bow for the past 3 years I think I may have observed what sails we had up at the pointy end and I can assure you if we could get a kite up, we would. They may have changed that in the last 6 weeks as I'm now doing a Fastnet 2 handed campaign but I doubt it.

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Jambalaya, you may have raced against them in the 105. When they got the 109 they changed a few of the crew. Having done their bow for the past 3 years I think I may have observed what sails we had up at the pointy end and I can assure you if we could get a kite up, we would. They may have changed that in the last 6 weeks as I'm now doing a Fastnet 2 handed campaign but I doubt it.

 

Touche ! Which boat, am I beating you so far ? :P

 

"Unfortunately" I'm doing St Malo and Fastnet with crew, might squeeze in another race or two two handed to get some mileage out of the boat.

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Did you jump ship as they asked you to wear one of these shirts ? (J-D National Champions 2011)

 

post-3223-000764700 1307106320_thumb.jpg

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Jambalaya, you may have raced against them in the 105. When they got the 109 they changed a few of the crew. Having done their bow for the past 3 years I think I may have observed what sails we had up at the pointy end and I can assure you if we could get a kite up, we would. They may have changed that in the last 6 weeks as I'm now doing a Fastnet 2 handed campaign but I doubt it.

 

Touche ! Which boat, am I beating you so far ? :P

 

"Unfortunately" I'm doing St Malo and Fastnet with crew, might squeeze in another race or two two handed to get some mileage out of the boat.

 

 

 

Suspect they did not fly it on the last run of the Nationals because they only had an A2 left having blown up a heavy kite the day before and they were so far in front.........

 

 

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umm, dock talk with Kirsty was that it was the A2 they blew up, but only they will know for sure. We were surprised they would have been flying it in that much breeze.

 

They were a way out in front for what turned out to be the last race in the event, which would totally justify the whites only option for the last leg, I also suspect the kite would have been ready to go if needed. As someone mentioned, Stalker had a pretty good last run taking 100+ yards out of the leaders by flying the kite, high risk strategy though. JL92S made the point that the boat can get on the plane if really prodded, but needs 32+ knots, so I guess theres a TWS band from 27-32 where the whites will pay. Double handed is a totally different game due to the lack of moveable ballast.

 

And yes, that crew gear is a justifiable excuse for mutiny :ph34r: Haven't seen it recently...

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umm, dock talk with Kirsty was that it was the A2 they blew up, but only they will know for sure. We were surprised they would have been flying it in that much breeze.

 

They were a way out in front for what turned out to be the last race in the event, which would totally justify the whites only option for the last leg, I also suspect the kite would have been ready to go if needed. As someone mentioned, Stalker had a pretty good last run taking 100+ yards out of the leaders by flying the kite, high risk strategy though. JL92S made the point that the boat can get on the plane if really prodded, but needs 32+ knots, so I guess theres a TWS band from 27-32 where the whites will pay. Double handed is a totally different game due to the lack of moveable ballast.

 

And yes, that crew gear is a justifiable excuse for mutiny :ph34r: Haven't seen it recently...

 

The shirts are lovely... May wear mine tommorrow in Gosport... ;-)

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Nice green shirts too....

 

As for flying an A2 it makes sense if you can handle it, better cut for going deeper and theoretically a bigger kite would lift the bow more if I'm not mistaken.

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I was surprised by the number of people flying A2 0.75oz in the 25 knots plus, i believe north make a 1.1 oz full size A4 and certainly Elvstrom make a 0.9oz A4, which is actually cut more for down wind than there A2, due to the changing angles in the increasing pressure.

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umm, dock talk with Kirsty was that it was the A2 they blew up, but only they will know for sure. We were surprised they would have been flying it in that much breeze.

 

They were a way out in front for what turned out to be the last race in the event, which would totally justify the whites only option for the last leg, I also suspect the kite would have been ready to go if needed. As someone mentioned, Stalker had a pretty good last run taking 100+ yards out of the leaders by flying the kite, high risk strategy though. JL92S made the point that the boat can get on the plane if really prodded, but needs 32+ knots, so I guess theres a TWS band from 27-32 where the whites will pay. Double handed is a totally different game due to the lack of moveable ballast.

 

And yes, that crew gear is a justifiable excuse for mutiny :ph34r: Haven't seen it recently...

 

They only wear it to prizegivings but at least they are fun rather than boring colours! The green was an interesting choice which they wore at the Nationals!

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I was surprised by the number of people flying A2 0.75oz in the 25 knots plus, i believe north make a 1.1 oz full size A4 and certainly Elvstrom make a 0.9oz A4, which is actually cut more for down wind than there A2, due to the changing angles in the increasing pressure.

 

The Sobstad kites are not as full across the head - full stop. The North Sails kite allows the J/109 to run deep. If you can handle the A2 not sure why you would put up anything else? Don't broach! Kicker a really important job and playing the main can also be a saviour.

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I agree the north kites allow you to run deeper, i was just thinking that something heavier maybe nice in case something goes wrong. As well i remember someone ( I think it was Jahmali) who were saying they blew out an A2, without broaching, it just went in the pressure. But yeah i agree there is no need to go any smaller if the crew can handle it.

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As far as I knew, the North A4 is just a heavier version of the A2, same size, same cut but heavier cloth and more reinforcement.

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On a slightly different topic...

 

Do yourselves a favor and carefully inspect your foot blocks, including the wedge that supports them.

 

I'm not quite sure about the chain of events, but suspect that block must have worked, broke the wedge, and worked some more. One of the 1/4 inch (6 mm) bolt sheared, and the others are twisted into pretzels. The block is twisted and the screw holes broken out. Or maybe the wedge failed first... it seems to be made of Starboard, which is not a great structural material.

 

Of course, this was in the middle of a race :(

 

To say nothing of having to spend half of a perfectly good Saturday fabricating a teardrop shaped 5 degree wedge -- and I was fortunate to have a piece of acetyl to do it with. A Harken 1963 costs $150 USD retail, and I had to pay for expedited shipping to get it in time for our next race.

post-960-083281100 1307243136_thumb.jpg

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Throatwarbler - I'll do so. I have not heard about problems in UK fleet and most of the boats spend most of the time racing with heavily loaded #1's

 

Re: kites I suspect North has the most data amongst the UK fleet. I've only had one chance to line up downwind on the 15 mile start of Cervantes Trophy and speed between the boats seemed pretty even, we have Elvstrom (new Ultimate AP coming), JIBE and Jagerbomb are North, not sure about Yoeman. Photos look similar, for us it was race 1 and we were conservative with tack down and probably a bit oversheeted. This isn't as true a test of ultimate downwind performance differences as an OD race.

 

All photos credit Hamo Thornycroft

 

 

JIBE

 

Jaegerbomb (not such a good photo angle)

 

Jambalaya

 

Yoeman

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Sweet... Lastet episode of "Pimp My Ride" :lol:

 

5799512055_385f317e45_b.jpg

 

This is the Carbonautica wheel that's an option on the US J/111 (not in Europe yet). Sligthly modified to fit the Lewmar hub.

 

Next I'll probably get rid of the compass and mount a plotter there (Garmin GPSmap 720?). We tend to do a lot of tight archipelago racing, but i don't want a huge pod. We'll see...

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Like on the 105 you need to think of a way to protect any plotter mounted there from the mainsheet which has a habbit of looping over binacle on gybes esp when short handed and not being "handed" across

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Next I'll probably get rid of the compass and mount a plotter there (Garmin GPSmap 720?). We tend to do a lot of tight archipelago racing, but i don't want a huge pod. We'll see...

 

have a look at the garmin 555 plotter, he had one mounted on the back of the coachroof about where your polars are.

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Throatwarbler - I'll do so. I have not heard about problems in UK fleet and most of the boats spend most of the time racing with heavily loaded #1's

 

Re: kites I suspect North has the most data amongst the UK fleet. I've only had one chance to line up downwind on the 15 mile start of Cervantes Trophy and speed between the boats seemed pretty even, we have Elvstrom (new Ultimate AP coming), JIBE and Jagerbomb are North, not sure about Yoeman. Photos look similar, for us it was race 1 and we were conservative with tack down and probably a bit oversheeted. This isn't as true a test of ultimate downwind performance differences as an OD race.

 

All photos credit Hamo Thornycroft

 

 

JIBE

 

Jaegerbomb (not such a good photo angle)

 

Jambalaya

 

Yoeman

 

Are you sure thats Yeoman, seems to have a French sail number?

 

Kite wise im still not sure which are better but the fleet consensus does seem to be north!, but J109 when i said that the Elvstrom A4 was cut deeper than the A2 i meant the Elvstrom A2, which is definatly cut higher than the north A2 but i feel the angles achievable are pretty similar between the Elvstrom A4 and the north A2. With the Elvstrom A4 being used from 14 knots (at least according to the sail selection chart iv seen).

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wam - sorry yes, that's a French 109. Yoeman with Jagerbomb behind here

 

North do now have a dominant position in the Solent keel boat market, I don't have the view that that's particularly due to any performance advantage of their products. It's rather more of a designer label thing in my view.

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As far as I knew, the North A4 is just a heavier version of the A2, same size, same cut but heavier cloth and more reinforcement.

that is mostly correct, at least here in the usa. we have both the A2 and the A4, they are both 108 sq m, the A4 is just heavier material and cut slightly differently for better heavy air stability and sail handling. according to their site:

 

2A Class Spinnaker 108m2

 

SPL = 5.72

ISP = 14.84

 

This sail loves to sail deep angles and rotate to weather downwind. It has a bigger more powerful head section and more elliptical shaping on the edges. So it will be more stable than the previous design with the tack raised and the sheet eased. But it still works well at tighter angles if it gets lighter. We really like this design and it has proven versatile and fast, in all conditions. » AirX 650

 

 

4A Class Spinnaker 108m2

 

SPL = 13.33

ISP = 49.00

 

This sail isn't just a heavier version of the 2A, it's shape and geometry are optimized for sailing in breeze over 18 knots TWS. The 4A spinnaker is more stable and easier to trim and gybe in heavier breeze. This sail is designed to keep the tack down, but still project out to windward, which makes it easier to keep the sail under the chute and more stable in lumpy conditions. This will be a great addition to any J/109 inventory. » AirX 700

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Re: A4 very interesting, it was a North A4 which we couldn't control. It seemed smaller than the Elvstrom kite. When its back from being repaired I'll check the measurement data. BTW I am a big fan of Airx.

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You can hardly call Dartweek a serious regatta, definately not worth blowing a kite for. And for your information, J-Dream would never go to white sail in anything less than 35 kts. They have the crew to handle it and the best helm. I can remember having the A2 up having gusts of over 40 kts and a steady 30 + kts when the boat planed for the whole run at 19 kts going from 6th to 1st...

 

 

So this isn't J Dream (with somewhat iffy crew position...) DDW in 25ish at Dartmouth 2009?

 

The previous downwind they (you...?) did fly the kite, whilst Shiva (or was it VE...?) did the goosewing thing. Despite the exceptional boat handling that J-Dream is rightly known for they lost 10 boatlengths to the 109 that didn't hoist.

post-2703-081722400 1307465721_thumb.jpg

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You can hardly call Dartweek a serious regatta, definately not worth blowing a kite for. And for your information, J-Dream would never go to white sail in anything less than 35 kts. They have the crew to handle it and the best helm. I can remember having the A2 up having gusts of over 40 kts and a steady 30 + kts when the boat planed for the whole run at 19 kts going from 6th to 1st...

 

 

So this isn't J Dream (with somewhat iffy crew position...) DDW in 25ish at Dartmouth 2009?

 

The previous downwind they (you...?) did fly the kite, whilst Shiva (or was it VE...?) did the goosewing thing. Despite the exceptional boat handling that J-Dream is rightly known for they lost 10 boatlengths to the 109 that didn't hoist.

 

we didn't have a brilliant day that day, it had previously gusted around 35kts but mostly we weren't the regular crew and we had one lying down below seasick.

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Flaming I recall it was JD and Jamahli at the front of that IRC class. I remember the regatta pretty well, sold breeze and one day blown off. We (on the 105) sailed pretty well and flew the kite every leg of every race with no issues. I remember calculating that we'd not have beaten JD on a single race (bit of a ballpark as we were on same circle but the class behind), I think that settled the fact that I needed to switch boats to a 109

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Yeah, that regatta also fixed us on ditching the overlappers.

 

As you can see we sailed around the course with JD in pretty much every race but never flew the overlappers and with JD rated for a 3 we were never in contention as we owed them 15 points for a sail we couldn't use.

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You can hardly call Dartweek a serious regatta, definately not worth blowing a kite for. And for your information, J-Dream would never go to white sail in anything less than 35 kts. They have the crew to handle it and the best helm. I can remember having the A2 up having gusts of over 40 kts and a steady 30 + kts when the boat planed for the whole run at 19 kts going from 6th to 1st...

 

 

So this isn't J Dream (with somewhat iffy crew position...) DDW in 25ish at Dartmouth 2009?

 

The previous downwind they (you...?) did fly the kite, whilst Shiva (or was it VE...?) did the goosewing thing. Despite the exceptional boat handling that J-Dream is rightly known for they lost 10 boatlengths to the 109 that didn't hoist.

 

2009, ah, yes straight after the Nationals. Can't remember what crew they had on board but it wasn't the regular crew. I wasn't there for one...

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You can hardly call Dartweek a serious regatta, definately not worth blowing a kite for. And for your information, J-Dream would never go to white sail in anything less than 35 kts. They have the crew to handle it and the best helm. I can remember having the A2 up having gusts of over 40 kts and a steady 30 + kts when the boat planed for the whole run at 19 kts going from 6th to 1st...

 

 

So this isn't J Dream (with somewhat iffy crew position...) DDW in 25ish at Dartmouth 2009?

 

The previous downwind they (you...?) did fly the kite, whilst Shiva (or was it VE...?) did the goosewing thing. Despite the exceptional boat handling that J-Dream is rightly known for they lost 10 boatlengths to the 109 that didn't hoist.

 

we didn't have a brilliant day that day, it had previously gusted around 35kts but mostly we weren't the regular crew and we had one lying down below seasick.

 

Not normal mastman and they took a penalty. Suspect he got shouted at by Kirsty!

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You can hardly call Dartweek a serious regatta, definately not worth blowing a kite for. And for your information, J-Dream would never go to white sail in anything less than 35 kts. They have the crew to handle it and the best helm. I can remember having the A2 up having gusts of over 40 kts and a steady 30 + kts when the boat planed for the whole run at 19 kts going from 6th to 1st...

 

 

So this isn't J Dream (with somewhat iffy crew position...) DDW in 25ish at Dartmouth 2009?

 

The previous downwind they (you...?) did fly the kite, whilst Shiva (or was it VE...?) did the goosewing thing. Despite the exceptional boat handling that J-Dream is rightly known for they lost 10 boatlengths to the 109 that didn't hoist.

 

we didn't have a brilliant day that day, it had previously gusted around 35kts but mostly we weren't the regular crew and we had one lying down below seasick.

 

Not normal mastman and they took a penalty. Suspect he got shouted at by Kirsty!

 

They did not take a penalty. We didn't file in the end because we couldn't be bothered on the last day of the regatta with a protest that would change nothing. I did send that pic to J-Dream afterwards, and they did agree it was illegal and "we won't do it again". Which is fair enough really.

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We had another 60 odd miles of heavy air sailing at the weekend. On Saturday we'd observe that into 20-25 knots we were higher and even speed with 3 crew (ie only 1 or 2 on rail) with a #3 and reefed main than a 109 with 6 crew with a #3 and full main. It is hard to know whether part of that was "skill" as we were not up against a top boat. On Sunday into 25-35 with #4 and single reefed main was OK at bottom of that range but by 35 we needed definitely 2 reefs.

 

 

FWIW it cannot have been to windy when the JD photo was taken as the sea looks quite flat (often does in photos perhaps) and they have no reef in the main. In 30 knots I don't think you could hold a J109 #3 withot it tearing your arm off. Photo below was in solid 30-35, we have reeefed main, small frac chute (not masthead), note sea state and this is also in a reasonably protected bay with wind blowing off the land. My only point is I think you go no kite on a 109 much earlier than I have been used to on 105 and 92.

 

post-3223-080313700 1307969080_thumb.jpg

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Regarding the discussion we had about the downwind whomper... here's a short clip from Faerder Race in Norway that started friday. 850+ boats and downwind start inside Oslo city = pretty shifty.

 

That chute sure keeps the crew busy - and smiling :D

 

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Blur - how did you do that ? I've watched the video three times and I cannot work it out. I've been sailing asyms for 12 years and I've never managed that, a sort of asymetric chinese gybe after a big puff knocks the boat down without rounding up and then shift forces a gybe ? In fact you need to name it, "A blur", "A Blurch", "A Bloach". Also your crew need a special good humour award as I have to believe the water temperature in Oslo isn't so warm in June, the crew were busy holding on and trying not to freeze to death !

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it's surprisingly easy to do, i've done it in a 6.4m sportsboat and very nearly done in a 92 and a 105, symmetric spinnaker trim knowledge applies then winching the tack down to keep the sail in front of the boat.

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Nice going Blur - never seeen it from the helms perspective before! Nice recovery/crew work from hanging on to a drop on the wrong side and rehoist

 

 

Managed it a few times on the J109, generally happens with a combination of big breeze, a gust on top, a slightly over eased sheet and a roll to weather (notice the luff going to weather just before the chinese Blurch in the vid). We reckon the quickest recovery is just gybe the kite and make like you meant to do it! Does depend on getting the boat level first though - and assumes its DDW, so that the other gybe is vaguely appropriate.

 

EDIT - never managed it with the tack nailed down - which it looks like it is in that vid, but if its a whomper guess theres enough area to cause it.

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The Blurch - naturally... thanks!

 

Actually I didn't see it coming. Didn't even knew it was possibe :blink:

 

Tack was all the way down, but if we sheeted in earlier we've might have stopped it. Some people suggest we shouldn't hike the boat in a blow but sail it more level. Any opinion on this? I feel we get better rotation, better balance and more speed when heeled to windward (up to a point).

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The Blurch - naturally... thanks!

 

Actually I didn't see it coming. Didn't even knew it was possibe :blink:

 

Tack was all the way down, but if we sheeted in earlier we've might have stopped it. Some people suggest we shouldn't hike the boat in a blow but sail it more level. Any opinion on this? I feel we get better rotation, better balance and more speed when heeled to windward (up to a point).

nice job on everyone's part. looked like no one freaked at all!

 

in my experience we've tried to sail the boat flat but not heeled to weather when the breeze picks up. however, i've never tried this, so maybe it is faster... less the blurch, of course ;)

 

what was it blowing?

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Regarding the discussion we had about the downwind whomper... here's a short clip from Faerder Race in Norway that started friday. 850+ boats and downwind start inside Oslo city = pretty shifty.

 

That chute sure keeps the crew busy - and smiling :D

 

 

Awesome recovery. Your bow, mast and pit did a brilliant job and well done for not driving over the kite! oh, and good job the guys in the water weren't wearing life jackets...

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what was it blowing?

Just 16-20 knots but pretty puffy. Also 50 other boats in our start so we were sailing lower than usual trying to keep our lane. Awesome to be able to hang with faster symetrical boats (X-35, Bashford 36, Salona 37, Bavaria 38 Match, GS37BC) DDW.

 

Awesome recovery. Your bow, mast and pit did a brilliant job and well done for not driving over the kite! oh, and good job the guys in the water weren't wearing life jackets...

Thx. Actually everyone was pretty cheerful afterwards. Below are some other pics from the same race (curtesy of Seilas):

 

blurfaerder2011-2.jpg

 

blurfaerder2011-1.jpg

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what was it blowing?

Just 16-20 knots but pretty puffy. Also 50 other boats in our start so we were sailing lower than usual trying to keep our lane. Awesome to be able to hang with faster symetrical boats (X-35, Bashford 36, Salona 37, Bavaria 38 Match, GS37BC) DDW.

 

Awesome recovery. Your bow, mast and pit did a brilliant job and well done for not driving over the kite! oh, and good job the guys in the water weren't wearing life jackets...

Thx. Actually everyone was pretty cheerful afterwards. Below are some other pics from the same race (curtesy of Seilas):

 

blurfaerder2011-2.jpg

 

blurfaerder2011-1.jpg

 

I'd be curious to know how many points your irc dropped by taking the furler off?

 

fantastic crew work in that Chinese too!

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