chorus1

Dick Carter design boats

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@ Moody frog, I remember Variag in the 1978 Middle Sea Race, you had a stunning young lady with for the time a skimpy bikini as part of the crew. I'm sure I have a photo somewhere.

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@ Cholita, any feedback from Cantiere Navale Argentario on Ydra?

thanks

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Dear laser,

Let me tell you thé print cost of Such a half Hull Is about 90 ,

Thé Time spent to work on thé drawings Is about 3 or 4 days.

Do you think 150 With shipping included worth "rolled eyes?

 

Cheers

 

Sorry :( I'll think about my sins on the start line of the passage race from Falmouth to Fowey this morning.

 

Fowey week on a 4 kt shitbox (Achilles 24) this week. Gonna be fun.

 

Laser out!

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@ Moody frog, I remember Variag in the 1978 Middle Sea Race, you had a stunning young lady with for the time a skimpy bikini as part of the crew. I'm sure I have a photo somewhere.

 

 

:)

 

That's what will ever put Med racing ahead of any Channel/Atlantic race ;)

 

This puts this specific race in a different perspective to mine ;)

I was running the program for our (pretty young) high-society owner.

He flew in for the arrival, together with a top-notch fashion model ! then decided he would go sailing and sun-bathing with the crew, while I should don my blue-jacket and tie and represent him at the owners' party !

So, while everybody was having a well deserved fun: there I was, socializing with a bunch of men who could have been my father, I had a long chat with Variag's owner who wanted fresh news from my owner and his father, of which I had very few, of course !

 

Not my funniest racing memory !

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Dear laser,

Let me tell you thé print cost of Such a half Hull Is about 90 ,

Thé Time spent to work on thé drawings Is about 3 or 4 days.

Do you think 150 With shipping included worth "rolled eyes?

 

Cheers

 

Sorry :( I'll think about my sins on the start line of the passage race from Falmouth to Fowey this morning.

 

Fowey week on a 4 kt shitbox (Achilles 24) this week. Gonna be fun.

 

Laser out!

Nobody is perfect, you are forgiven :)

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Laser, would be nice to have a Tina Web site on the net :)

If no running yet, i'm ready to keep a part of mine (http://www.demi-coques.fr) to do so, in English.

So that every owner of Tina's boat could share stories, photos about their boats !

Fisrt of all, would be great to get the mail address of the owners to get their opinion ?

A couple of years ago (could be 10) my dad was invited by the new owner of 'Zeehaas' to join him in Lorient/LaTrinite??? for the inaugural Tina's Cup.

 

Don't know how many they managed to round up buy they had quite a few.

 

From memory his name is Mr. Lambert. He competed in Fastnet 2 years ago. I think he's part of a group of guys that want to

buy and preserve/race/cruise Tina's in the Lorient area.

 

I did Fastnet with the mighty Class 40 'Dragon' and after the finish I went over and had a few beers with them. It was good to be on board again.

 

I'm sure you can look him up in France and get in touch with him.

 

--------------

 

On a different note : Found another Tina in the grey matter - 'JORAN' - short cabin top - red hull.

 

Owned at the time by a Swiss guy who also put a bigger rig on and cut the stern off just behind the cockpit and put a transom hung rudder on iirc.

 

As a nipper I can remember playing in the junk yard at Frans Maas' (which I wasn't allowed in with my mates) and found it to be a very good hole to hide in :-)

 

Last I know it was sold into Holland (Muiden, Ysselmeer area) and probably still there.

I do remember this "Joran" lookin such a small "rabbit" (Same red :) in some sail magazine.

Would you still have some good pics about this cute boat or even press articles ?

 

Cheers

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Hello Chorus,

I'm interested by a half hull of my boat "Cavalier seul", do you need additional pictures ?

Part of your website dédicated to Tina's stories would be nice ! How could I help you ?

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As a proud owner of a Storebro Royal 33 (design Dick Carter/JH Lindbolm) I´d like to share this link to an old broschure. The Royal 33 is a redesign of Carter 33.

Link to broschure here.

/rolf

 

storebroroyal33.png

My parents keep their Storebro in St. Joseph Island Canada. Snow Goose is her name. She's been a great cruiser.

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$85K??? It's going to be there for a LONG time.

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$85K??? It's going to be there for a LONG time.

 

 

 

It did say "Owner Negotiable". I wonder if I could negotiate to move the decimal to the left one or two spots. Obviously a well maintained boat. Very pretty

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Hello Guys!

Just seen here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/carter-37-a-39158-3.html

 

 

There seems to be some misinformation floating around that my uncle Dick Carter died in 2007- not so. He's in great shape and divides his time between Doughton Manor (which he has been restoring) in England and Falmouth, Mass. (The 2007 rumor apparently first appeared on a Sailing Anarchy forum but is total bologna).

As a kid I used to sail on a Carter 33 owned by Dick's brother John named 'Crocodile' and then a one ton by the same. The boats were always competitive!
A good new or a hoax from a troll? Somebody can confirm?

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I had some email correspondance on this and Dick is indeed still alive and living the good life. I have a recent photo of him but I'm not sure about the ethics of posting it. I saw a second recent photo.

Dick was always a pretty relaxed guy. The idea of him dieing relatively young never sat right with me. In the photo he looks to have hardly aged at all.

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Hello Guys!

Just seen here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/carter-37-a-39158-3.html

 

 

There seems to be some misinformation floating around that my uncle Dick Carter died in 2007- not so. He's in great shape and divides his time between Doughton Manor (which he has been restoring) in England and Falmouth, Mass. (The 2007 rumor apparently first appeared on a Sailing Anarchy forum but is total bologna).

 

As a kid I used to sail on a Carter 33 owned by Dick's brother John named 'Crocodile' and then a one ton by the same. The boats were always competitive!

A good new or a hoax from a troll? Somebody can confirm?
Tx for these good news !
Attached a native Carter 33 :)
Carter33copyrighta.jpg

 

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Whaou!

 

Allez, en français, pour une fois aux autres de traduire. B)

 

Merci Chorus, très beau, mais tu as oublié les boites dorades et les manches à air! :)

 

Je suis en train de "craquer" pour un 37 où il y a tout à refaire, mais il faudra avant tout vendre le 33...Est ce bien raisonnable????

 

Par contre, pas de bonne nouvelle de Frigate qui est de plus en plus abandonnée et pitoyable. Je vais la voir quelque fois comme on visite un copain malade...

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J-Louis

 

Thanks for the good news! Very pleased that he is alive and apparently VERY well.

 

I sailed for a couple of years on a Carter 33 half-ton model. Very nice boat in a blow!

 

This Doughton Manor??

 

1891703_450_450_6971_0_fill_0_7c1849b0b5

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Wow - yacht design can be good to its practitioners.

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Whaou!

 

Allez, en français, pour une fois aux autres de traduire. B)

 

Merci Chorus, très beau, mais tu as oublié les boites dorades et les manches à air! :)

 

Je suis en train de "craquer" pour un 37 où il y a tout à refaire, mais il faudra avant tout vendre le 33...Est ce bien raisonnable????

 

Par contre, pas de bonne nouvelle de Frigate qui est de plus en plus abandonnée et pitoyable. Je vais la voir quelque fois comme on visite un copain malade...

 

Le 37 est un super canot, doux à la barre et rapide. Son seul "défaut" serait d'avoir une coque polyester qui "vient" tant que tu tires avec le pataras (elle fait la banane et tu ne peux pas obtenir un étai raide)

 

En voici une "vieille" demie coque faite il y a longtemps pour un Italien.

 

C37cBoisCopyright.jpg

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Chorus,

 

Another one of these 'famous' French Tina's from the 70's : "ORGEUIL"

 

Give it time we'll remember the majority of them.

 

Salut

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Chorus,

 

Another one of these 'famous' French Tina's from the 70's : "ORGEUIL"

 

Give it time we'll remember the majority of them.

 

Salut

Yes, ORGUEIL V if i do rermember :)

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Hard:

Pretty sure that's the joint. His next door neighbor is Prince Charles. " Morning Chuck."

Dick was born quite lucky. But he drove a beat up, old VW bug with one windshield wiper and half a set of brakes. Not sure he ever noticed. He was not the kind of guy you would go for a beer with but he was a good boss and very quirky in a

fun way. He wore the same thing every day. In the winter he changed from chinos to grey flannel slacks but the rest was the same. We didn't socialize. I guess I could have invited him for a beer. It never occurred to me.

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Wow - yacht design can be good to its practitioners.

Looks like they shorted themselves when they ordered the windows.

 

But Olin Stephens home was pretty nice too. It was next door to my best (rich) sailing friend in H.S. We got up the nerve to knock on the door once. Nice, courteous, very old-school guy.

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A new half Hull from a famous Carter guys !

Lets see SCARAMOUCHE launched in 1977 ! Enjoy :)

 

ScaramoucheCopyright.jpgScaramoucheCopyright.jpg

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Nice except for the transom - I always hated those stepped transoms.

 

How big was that boat?

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I kind of like those transoms. You can give that break a smiley face or a frowny face depending on how you balanced the two radii.

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Are they 43's. I can remember Belita & Crazy Swan being Carter 43's but cannot remember the stepped transom on those.

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I had some email correspondance on this and Dick is indeed still alive and living the good life. I have a recent photo of him but I'm not sure about the ethics of posting it. I saw a second recent photo.

Dick was always a pretty relaxed guy. The idea of him dieing relatively young never sat right with me. In the photo he looks to have hardly aged at all.

Here's something in the public domain..

 

http://www.wickedlocal.com/bourne/topstories/x846064727/Doughton-Manor-lecture-fills-Cataumet-Arts-Center-Sunday-afternoon?photo=0

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Are they 43's. I can remember Belita & Crazy Swan being Carter 43's but cannot remember the stepped transom on those.

Tanton design :) no carter design ......

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I had some email correspondance on this and Dick is indeed still alive and living the good life. I have a recent photo of him but I'm not sure about the ethics of posting it. I saw a second recent photo.

Dick was always a pretty relaxed guy. The idea of him dieing relatively young never sat right with me. In the photo he looks to have hardly aged at all.

Here's something in the public domain..

 

http://www.wickedlocal.com/bourne/topstories/x846064727/Doughton-Manor-lecture-fills-Cataumet-Arts-Center-Sunday-afternoon?photo=0

 

Looks Damn good. I can't imagine he's not 80-something at this point. Glad to see him doing well. Bob, I appreciate the insights. Certainly not your average millionaire next door

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Was he born into money or did yacht design pay for all that? Lives in Falmouth but has that estate in Gloucester to restore as well?

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His family was involved with the Nashua Corporation. N-H. Pretty big company., he was on the board as a director. Carter Offshore grew from practically zero to 6 Mil. only to loose a couple of Mil. in six months following the first oil crisis. After, nothing was the same.

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His family was involved with the Nashua Corporation. N-H. Pretty big company., he was on the board as a director. Carter Offshore grew from practically zero to 6 Mil. only to loose a couple of Mil. in six months following the first oil crisis. After, nothing was the same.

 

 

A million dollars was a lot of money back in the 70's...

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Nice except for the transom - I always hated those stepped transoms.

 

How big was that boat?

L.O.A 42'-0"; L.W.L 33'-4"; Beam 13'-1/2"; Draft 7'-1"; Displ. 19,200 Lbs.

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Trying to find more info on Carter 40 , i have one built Storebro in Sweden 1972, are any like it stil sailing ?

post-104067-0-98833400-1385071277_thumb.jpg

post-104067-0-21203700-1385071340_thumb.jpg

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Pertan 44,

 

There was one successful Carter 40 in Marseille called "Candide" and she is still there and alive, see pic in Chorus's post # 91 on this thread

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Thank`s moody frog. I will be trying to find previouse owners ( this might be hard) Storebro might be able to identify the first owner. I will give it a shot

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Thank`s moody frog. I will be trying to find previouse owners ( this might be hard) Storebro might be able to identify the first owner. I will give it a shot

 

I know the name of Candide first owner, he was a very well known Marseille lawyer (and yachtsman) Mr Jacques Molco.

He probably got the boat through Carter Offshore in Antibes in the early seventies.

You may know more at Société Nautique de Marseille of which Mr Molco has been president. That club has a fantastic Library and somebody in charge of it.

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In most of the Carter designs, the keel is swept back but the rudder is straight vertical. Can anyone explain the logic of this?

 

YdraCopyrightDC.jpg

 

Perhaps the idea is that the keel needs to be swept back to shed the lobster pot buoys and that the rudder needs no such sweep because it is protected by the keel.

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Swept back rudders (on a vertical stock) are always unbalanced and develop large helm loads when turned. A vertical rudder puts the centre of effort of the blade closer to the stock, limiting helm loads, and in other boats (not the boat here obviously) allows a balance rudder design (like this), further reducing helm load. Also cockpit logistics is a big consideration, if the rudder and stock in the boat in the pic here were angled like the keel the tiller would come out in the middle of the cockpit and manoeuvres would be a nightmare. I don't know that I've ever seen a boat with a heavily swept back stock, old timers had the base of the rudder ahead of the head.

 

Plus back in the day there were all sorts of theories about keel sweep that derived from jet aircraft wing design thinking. Seems nowadays these have been overturned and most high performance boats have vertical keels. Sweep is useful for cruisers to shed debris for sure, but racers won't make that compromise in general.

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^^ Thanks! That makes sense. I suppose that if Dick Carter hadn't thought the skeg was necessary, he would have swept back the rudder and mounted it on a vertical stock.

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Swept back rudders (on a vertical stock) are always unbalanced and develop large helm loads when turned. A vertical rudder puts the centre of effort of the blade closer to the stock, limiting helm loads, and in other boats (not the boat here obviously) allows a balance rudder design (like this), further reducing helm load. Also cockpit logistics is a big consideration, if the rudder and stock in the boat in the pic here were angled like the keel the tiller would come out in the middle of the cockpit and manoeuvres would be a nightmare. I don't know that I've ever seen a boat with a heavily swept back stock, old timers had the base of the rudder ahead of the head.

 

Plus back in the day there were all sorts of theories about keel sweep that derived from jet aircraft wing design thinking. Seems nowadays these have been overturned and most high performance boats have vertical keels. Sweep is useful for cruisers to shed debris for sure, but racers won't make that compromise in general.

 

Yep, the move from semi-long to fin-keels, offshore, had just happened kind of 5-7 years previously and keel refinements were a "big" subject with everybody looking at planes ( far were the days of scientific research, yet)

In '72 I raced on a new Finot design, the (young) skipper - racing for Finot - had two hobbies: R/C gliders and of course sailing.

He explained to the crew at length how they had been working hard at extrapolating the keel design from his "soaring" planes' wing designs.

In his opinion that kind of wings were working in the closest environment to that of a keel upwind.

Result is the deepest keel in the enclosed sketch.

post-6361-0-12624700-1385285168.jpg

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The interesting thing about this is that other designers looked at the options and decided to incorporate the sweep angle in the skeg, which added a small amount of wetted surface. Most S&S designs from that era feature this configuration, the Sagitta 35 for example.

sagitta35.jpg

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Yves-Marie Tanton drew he lines for YDRA maybe he'll come over and explain why the rudder and the keel look like that. I think you guys are "overthinking" it. Sometimes as a designer you do something because it just feels right.

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^^ That's why I asked the question regarding the swept back keel and straight vertical rudder. It doesn't look right.

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Sweep angle to the keel can be tied to aspect ratio. Low aspect ratio fins benefit from sweep. A high aspect ratio shape like the skeg/rudder combo on that boat can get away with no sweep. Generally speaking. The vertical leading edges you see today on modern fin and bulb keels are most probably (I'm no Bruce Farr) a product of the high apsect ratio of the modern, short chord fin and deep draft. Plus the fact that the bulb can be expected to provide some degree of end plating effect. The water is compelled to go over that fin, there is no easy way around it, and doesn't need the coaxing that sweep angle provides.

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Keel and skeg-rudder-racing boats of that era.

Dick Carter,on his first design Rabbit adopted a spade rudder in 1965, followed by Tina and company.

Later, with the introduction of the I.O.R Rule, and in order to get around girth stations measurements to obtain a longer waterline, the large golf tee rudder and skeg where introduced. After a reworking of the rule, the option became problematic. With the design of Ydra, there was no attempt to reverse to spade rudder, but instead to keep a rudder and skeg as small as possible, counting on the efficiency of the combination with a small wetted surface.

The swept back keel is an efficient design to increase the aspect ratio of a keel for a given hull depth. The One -Tonners of the time where heavy 15000 pounders with relatively deep canoe bodies, limiting the keel span available for the given draft limited by the rule. Therefore , the swept back keel with limited area were successful. As the boats became lighter and lighter, the hull shape is shallower and the aspect ratio is increased without the need of a sweep.

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Keel and skeg-rudder-racing boats of that era.

Dick Carter,on his first design Rabbit adopted a spade rudder in 1965, followed by Tina and company.

Later, with the introduction of the I.O.R Rule, and in order to get around girth stations measurements to obtain a longer waterline, the large golf tee rudder and skeg where introduced. After a reworking of the rule, the option became problematic. With the design of Ydra, there was no attempt to reverse to spade rudder, but instead to keep a rudder and skeg as small as possible, counting on the efficiency of the combination with a small wetted surface.

The swept back keel is an efficient design to increase the aspect ratio of a keel for a given hull depth. The One -Tonners of the time where heavy 15000 pounders with relatively deep canoe bodies, limiting the keel span available for the given draft limited by the rule. Therefore , the swept back keel with limited area were successful. As the boats became lighter and lighter, the hull shape is shallower and the aspect ratio is increased without the need of a sweep.

Cristal clear ! Tx YM.

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Refresh my memory please Yve-Marie. I think I have a good idea how the IOR worked in the stern with the two girth stations so, how was a skeg hung rudder an advantage over a pure spade. GANBARE got by with a spade. Why did you still use a skeg? I can't see a spade rudder as having more wetted surface than the skeg/rudder combo. You probably explained this in detail to me whe we worked togethger but that was 40 years ago! Jeezus!

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Refresh my memory please Yve-Marie. I think I have a good idea how the IOR worked in the stern with the two girth stations so, how was a skeg hung rudder an advantage over a pure spade. GANBARE got by with a spade. Why did you still use a skeg? I can't see a spade rudder as having more wetted surface than the skeg/rudder combo. You probably explained this in detail to me whe we worked togethger but that was 40 years ago! Jeezus!

As I understood it, the skeg provided unmeasured volume to the rear, effectively extended the hull thru, and past the girth points. Also a fence to keep the water flow running from front to back, not crossing under the counter.

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jhc:

Nope. That doesn't make any sense. Volume in a spade rudder would do the same thing. But I do not think we are talking about a volume issue. YDRA's skeg does not addd to sailing length. The amount of skeg you needed to change the AGS and AIGS could all be done with a "mini-skeg" like you see on GANBARE. The rule didn't even see the largest portion of YDRA's skeg. One of my jobs when I worked at Carter's was to draw the stern of the boat out in 3" to the foot scale (that's very large) to insure the builder got that awkward transtional area right. I am pretty familiar with how the rule worked there.

 

If you are talking about the "Golf Tee rudder" that did have a lot of vlume aft but in the case of YRDA there is no golf tee rudder.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that if you whacked that deep, full skeg off and just went with an IOR compliant skeg to manipulate the AIGS then went with a pure spade rudder the boat may have been a better boat. History would show that to be the case. I'd like to hear from YMT on this.

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I recall in those days the S&S boats had an underwater profile that mimicked a fighter jet. Swept wing and a skeg hung rudder, that also had a high sweep angle on the leading edge. Some newer jet, and yacht designs now have rudder fins that are true spade type. The entire foil pivots. the jet's foils are computer controlled.

I used to sail with a guy who would clamp down the steering wheel brake just before goin' off watch, he said "the other watch moved the helm too much". They would sail for hours with the brake on, the helm movement dramatically reduced.

Perchance the full skeg was a method of reducing the disturbance of radical rudder movement, and a reduction of the rudder shaft loading, allowing for narrower blade and reduced frontal area.

I recall seeing the spade rudder perched on a small skeg used on the cal 2-27 and such. Was that Lapworth? I forget.

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jhc:

Don't recall skegs on any Lapworth boats, He had it figured out.

 

You do have something with your "shaft diameter reduction theory" but I think you are over thinking it.

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I recall in those days the S&S boats had an underwater profile that mimicked a fighter jet. Swept wing and a skeg hung rudder, that also had a high sweep angle on the leading edge. Some newer jet, and yacht designs now have rudder fins that are true spade type. The entire foil pivots. the jet's foils are computer controlled.

I used to sail with a guy who would clamp down the steering wheel brake just before goin' off watch, he said "the other watch moved the helm too much". They would sail for hours with the brake on, the helm movement dramatically reduced.

Perchance the full skeg was a method of reducing the disturbance of radical rudder movement, and a reduction of the rudder shaft loading, allowing for narrower blade and reduced frontal area.

I recall seeing the spade rudder perched on a small skeg used on the cal 2-27 and such. Was that Lapworth? I forget.

 

The all-movable "stabiliator" configuration was developed for fighter jets because conventional stabilizer flaps are ineffective at supersonic speeds because the flow becomes entirely separated well forward of the flap. Among aircraft, probably the best analogy to sailboat keels and rudders are found on sailplanes. Sailplanes typically feature high-aspect ratio wings with no significant backward sweep, and the control surfaces are typically trailing edge flaps. Of course, I can't claim to be an expert on this subject. I won't be surprised if those who are more knowledgeable contradict me.

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Ganbare, in ways of the girths stations had a suspended rudder behind a bustle.The missing portion is the lower part of a full skeg.The full demise of bustle and rudder, and or skeg and rudder came after the end of the I.O.R rule.

In favor of the skeg: better control, when associated with I.O.R boats known to give wild rides under spinnakers, things that I never felt to be a problem with a Carter or on later, lighter boats with suspended rudder with smaller bustles.

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jhc:

Don't recall skegs on any Lapworth boats, He had it figured out.

 

You do have something with your "shaft diameter reduction theory" but I think you are over thinking it.

 

I believe the 2-27 was a Hunt design, not Lapworth IIRC. The original had the wide cabin with pop-top (sort-of like the 25 but stubbed-off at the foredeck) and then the T-2 with the traditional Cal deck and a small doghouse to meet the headroom requirements for a 1/2 ton. The 2-27 had a regular cabin trunk.

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jhc:

Don't recall skegs on any Lapworth boats, He had it figured out.

 

You do have something with your "shaft diameter reduction theory" but I think you are over thinking it.

 

I believe the 2-27 was a Hunt design, not Lapworth IIRC. The original had the wide cabin with pop-top (sort-of like the 25 but stubbed-off at the foredeck) and then the T-2 with the traditional Cal deck and a small doghouse to meet the headroom requirements for a 1/2 ton. The 2-27 had a regular cabin trunk.

This is the boat I was referring to:

 

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=823

 

Is this a suspended rudder behind a bustle, or a spade rudder w/skeg? Both?

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jhc:

Don't recall skegs on any Lapworth boats, He had it figured out.

 

You do have something with your "shaft diameter reduction theory" but I think you are over thinking it.

 

I believe the 2-27 was a Hunt design, not Lapworth IIRC. The original had the wide cabin with pop-top (sort-of like the 25 but stubbed-off at the foredeck) and then the T-2 with the traditional Cal deck and a small doghouse to meet the headroom requirements for a 1/2 ton. The 2-27 had a regular cabin trunk.

This is the boat I was referring to:

 

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=823

 

Is this a suspended rudder behind a bustle, or a spade rudder w/skeg? Both?

 

Hmmm, you learn something every day. I thought Lapworth had finished with them after the 3-30 and then later the company moved to Tampa.

 

More info here: http://sailboatdata.com/view_builder.asp?builder_id=37

 

It appears that Hunt came into the picture later than I thought. The 2-27 looks like a smaller 29.

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jhc:

That is the Lapworth design I was referring to. I would call that a spade rudder. There is not enough skeg there to even mention it. As I have posted before, the IOR gave you credit for squeezing the aft girth sections cloise together so a small skeg could be used to inclease the girth dim of the AIGS to help reduce "L". It's starting to get a bit foggy. I may have to refer to my own article I wrote about the IOR.

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BP: I recall at the time, '70s, the talk was about how pushing volume into the aft sections of racing yachts, in the form of a 'bustle'. Would add to the speed potential. With the IOR encouraging fine ends by rating credit, the bustle was the method of increasing speed without increasing the rating.

You heard a lot about prismatic coefficient.

Seems volume in the ends, is one of the features driving the speed potential of the modern boats, like the new Beau Geste. Volume now gained with the use of chines.

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jhc:

Yes, you are correct. With the rule encouraging reduced volume in the stern the designers looked to the bustle to restore lost volume aft. In hindsight I'm not sure it worked. We had convinced ourselves it did. Some of us anyway. When Bruce Kirby did the San Juan 30 Half Tonner he had no bustle at all. I raced against that in my own bustled and skegged half tonnner and in light to moderate air the Kirby was faster. In a blow I was faster. That was of little consolation in Seattle. So maybe the increased Cp did work but it had to blow 25 before you got anything out of it.

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Accolade!

I sailed aboard that boat in '76 when it was 'Hoppin' Gator'. In Annapolis.

Excellent in the light.

Built by Gougeon, like a piano, with a blister.

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Mr. Perry, I"m not trying to pick a fight but your comments re sweep angle vis a vis aspect ratio contradict my own understanding of the subject gleaned from my distant past flying Mach 2+ aircraft. The purpose of sweep angle in aircraft is to delay the onset of critical Mach when transitioning from incompressible airflow (subsonic) to compressibility (supersonic) in the transonic regime. The endplate effect reduces induced drag in both high and low aspect ratio applications but low aspect, long chord, swept foils benefit even more than the near vertical, short chord, high aspect ones due to their greater propensity to develop spanwise flow at low speeds and high angles of attack.

Sweep angle to the keel can be tied to aspect ratio. Low aspect ratio fins benefit from sweep. A high aspect ratio shape like the skeg/rudder combo on that boat can get away with no sweep. Generally speaking. The vertical leading edges you see today on modern fin and bulb keels are most probably (I'm no Bruce Farr) a product of the high apsect ratio of the modern, short chord fin and deep draft. Plus the fact that the bulb can be expected to provide some degree of end plating effect. The water is compelled to go over that fin, there is no easy way around it, and doesn't need the coaxing that sweep angle provides.

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Why would spanwise flow be desired in a boat keel? Not like we are going to go into transonic mode. My sailplane has the wings raked forward to reduce tip vortice and the slight spanwise flow it towards the hull interface/root where you get some endplate effect from the fuselage. When I raced Flying Dutchman, we usually swung out centerboards past vertical for the same reasons. It also has the effect of inducing board gybing if you have the shims on the trailing edge of the board and then the hull is more properly aligned with the direction of travel. At high speeds though a forward raked foil can get unstable and experience 'flutter'. More exciting in a sailplane than a FD for sure...

 

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Rasputin, spanwise flow is very undesirable; it's a major source of drag. For that reason, there would be even more benefit to having some kind of endplate or stall fence designed into a low aspect, highly swept IOR style keel. They all catch kelp though, which is a big problem in SD.

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Kinardly:

That's cool. I think my way. I gained most of my insight driving my car at 35 mph. Not sure mach 2 is applicable to a sailboat doing 8.43 knots. The term "Reynolds number" comes to mind.

I agree with some of the things you say. But the deal is this. You can "say". I have to "do" and I need to be comfortable with why I am doing it. Not sure we are that far apart.

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Sweep angle to the keel can be tied to aspect ratio.

 

If you increase the sweep, you reduce the length of the "tip". i.e. bottom edge, of the keel. This might reduce the vortex off the tip.

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Bruce King did something different to try to achieve that in the 70's - he shaped keels as nearly a triangle - see the Ericson 34X

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Here is the Glorius Red Rooster (Version2, more work with volumes) Enjoy :)RED%20ROOSTERdesign2Copyright.jpg

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I would double check that sheerline. I'm dead certain it was not drawn as flat as that rendering shows. Might as well be accurate.

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I saw this one advertised for 13000 Euros by a brokerage firm in Loutraki, Greece < http://www.greg-yachts.com/yacht.php?id=560 >. I was tempted by the ad just because my Dad has a place in Loutraki, but there is no marina there, just a small quay for local fishing boats. I'm not sure where the closest marina is.

 

P2364A.jpg

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I would double check that sheerline. I'm dead certain it was not drawn as flat as that rendering shows. Might as well be accurate.

I fully agree with you Bob, i didnt suceed with shades and no 3D to draw it properly. Apologize :)

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Boy those things must have been fun to build. :blink:

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I received a very nice email from Dick's daughter Catherine last night. She has been collecting articles and interviews of Dick for years and passing them along to Dick. She had sent him my article from SAILING I wrote in 1989. Dick liked it. He told her that I was the only one who "got it". That makes me happy.

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Hello everyone,

 

Bob Perry told me about this forum. I'm Dick Carter's daughter and have been digital restoring my Dad's old sailing photos and articles.

 

I recently found a terrific article that Bob had written in Sailing Magazine about my Dad back in 1989. I showed it to my Dad who said that Bob is the only one who 'gets it', who understands precisely what Dad was trying to do, design-wise, in the heady 1960s and 1970s. I emailed Bob to tell him how much that article means to both me and my dad and he wrote back, telling me about this forum.

 

So I'm happy to post any photos of boats that are of interest. I was a small child in the 60s but i remember Rabbit, Rabbit II and, my favorite boat, Red Rooster.

 

Happy New Year!

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Hello everyone,

 

Bob Perry told me about this forum. I'm Dick Carter's daughter and have been digital restoring my Dad's old sailing photos and articles.

 

I recently found a terrific article that Bob had written in Sailing Magazine about my Dad back in 1989. I showed it to my Dad who said that Bob is the only one who 'gets it', who understands precisely what Dad was trying to do, design-wise, in the heady 1960s and 1970s. I emailed Bob to tell him how much that article means to both me and my dad and he wrote back, telling me about this forum.

 

So I'm happy to post any photos of boats that are of interest. I was a small child in the 60s but i remember Rabbit, Rabbit II and, my favorite boat, Red Rooster.

 

Happy New Year!

Happy to wellcome you on this thread i wanted only to have a look on the cute racing boats your father created...

My favorite is also red rooster after Tina and... may be Noryema VII !

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