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Grant Dalton talks to Zerogradinord.it

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Very good - not even up on the ZG site yet!

 

Doesn't get any straighter than that ..

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Also, an interview with Francesco De Angelis: soft-spoken as always. The AC still a work in progress, praises the technical work being done (45, new rules, media stuff). The Defender's big advantage is continuity and being operative. Challengers other than AR and ETNZ: what we all know. Possibility of further financial facilitations: ducks.

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Interesting that GD is confirming what we said here for a long time, Or did not put one but two poodles to reign. GD is pretty straight talking.

 

Good also that he recognized he was helped by government money. I am sure other teams ET would be happy to receive more than a blessing from the ministry of sport, mainly considering the importance of the nautical industry in their country.

Instead of investing billions in SNCF and RATP maybe they could help a bit the marine industry.

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I appreciate GD's straightforward manner. Just tell it like it is. But it does seem that he held back something when asked about the CoR. But I would think he would have some courtesies with regard to sensitive issues that he knew were still in flux.

 

I think NZ gets quite a bang for the buck with the support of the sailing team. They have been a very positive and represent their country well on the world stage. Probably better than many governmental investments.

 

I hope he is wrong concerning the competiveness of some of the other teams but know and respect that he is well in tune with the happenings in the AC and Volvo race.

 

Thanks for the interview Zero.

 

 

 

 

 

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Interesting that GD is confirming what we said here for a long time, Or did not put one but two poodles to reign. GD is pretty straight talking.

 

Good also that he recognized he was helped by government money. I am sure other teams ET would be happy to receive more than a blessing from the ministry of sport, mainly considering the importance of the nautical industry in their country.

Instead of investing billions in SNCF and RATP maybe they could help a bit the marine industry.

 

 

Being "friendly" is not exactly the same thing as being a "poodle". I don't know too many billionaires that are willing to be anyone's poodle, although they may share a similar vision and just want to try and win in a friendly rivalry on the water.

 

While I like Dalton's interviews, and see him as a very engaging guy, I am also not exactly fond of all his schtick. Saying he would basically fight everything the defender does is not exactly my idea of doing things in the best interest of the cup, like some around here would seem to think. Sure, contest stuff you don't like. But I would think, as a challenger, you have to give a little up to the defender, particularly when it seems as though they are trying to at least help the challengers catch up in many ways.

 

But I just don't see TT giving everything to Oracle.

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Hi guys,

in Portofino we had an interview with Grant Daton regarding America's Cup.

 

To watch it

.

 

All the best.

 

Mauro Melandri

Zerogradinord.it

 

 

Mauro ... well done ... thank you!

 

GD has grave doubts about how many teams will appear.

 

Already characterizes it as "the big 3" plus hangers-on.

 

Sees Artemis as an extension of OR. And ML as a "tame" CoR.

 

Grant shows immense respect for other people.

 

Listens carefully to Mauro's questions and then answers them with sparkling clarity.

Clearly regards the AC45s as a bit of fun.

 

But not really the main meal.

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One other thought.

 

A few days ago Grant was talking to YCs about Camper.

Was in Taupo, Wellington, Nelson etc.

 

Now he is in Portofino!

 

Sure gets around.

 

 

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Classic jab at Oracle and Artemis. You gotta like interviews with GD. World-class interviewee.

+1 Good interview, thanks ZG and GD.

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Interesting that GD is confirming what we said here for a long time, Or did not put one but two poodles to reign. GD is pretty straight talking.

 

Good also that he recognized he was helped by government money. I am sure other teams ET would be happy to receive more than a blessing from the ministry of sport, mainly considering the importance of the nautical industry in their country.

Instead of investing billions in SNCF and RATP maybe they could help a bit the marine industry.

 

 

Being "friendly" is not exactly the same thing as being a "poodle". I don't know too many billionaires that are willing to be anyone's poodle, although they may share a similar vision and just want to try and win in a friendly rivalry on the water.

 

While I like Dalton's interviews, and see him as a very engaging guy, I am also not exactly fond of all his schtick. Saying he would basically fight everything the defender does is not exactly my idea of doing things in the best interest of the cup, like some around here would seem to think. Sure, contest stuff you don't like. But I would think, as a challenger, you have to give a little up to the defender, particularly when it seems as though they are trying to at least help the challengers catch up in many ways.

 

But I just don't see TT giving everything to Oracle.

 

 

Thanks ZG.

 

Unless there is a major upheaval the important decisions are made and those still to be made involve all the challengers not just the COR in most cases.

 

I think Grants comments were with regard to the form that AC34 would have taken with them as COR, rather than that they would like to dispute everything now that it is set.

 

Perhaps he has a problem with too much kowtowing to syndicates coming in late with too little backing and asking for all sorts of concessions though B)

 

 

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Interesting that GD is confirming what we said here for a long time, Or did not put one but two poodles to reign. GD is pretty straight talking.

 

Good also that he recognized he was helped by government money. I am sure other teams ET would be happy to receive more than a blessing from the ministry of sport, mainly considering the importance of the nautical industry in their country.

Instead of investing billions in SNCF and RATP maybe they could help a bit the marine industry.

 

 

Being "friendly" is not exactly the same thing as being a "poodle". I don't know too many billionaires that are willing to be anyone's poodle, although they may share a similar vision and just want to try and win in a friendly rivalry on the water.

 

While I like Dalton's interviews, and see him as a very engaging guy, I am also not exactly fond of all his schtick. Saying he would basically fight everything the defender does is not exactly my idea of doing things in the best interest of the cup, like some around here would seem to think. Sure, contest stuff you don't like. But I would think, as a challenger, you have to give a little up to the defender, particularly when it seems as though they are trying to at least help the challengers catch up in many ways.

 

But I just don't see TT giving everything to Oracle.

 

 

Thanks ZG.

 

Unless there is a major upheaval the important decisions are made and those still to be made involve all the challengers not just the COR in most cases.

 

I think Grants comments were with regard to the form that AC34 would have taken with them as COR, rather than that they would like to dispute everything now that it is set.

 

Perhaps he has a problem with too much kowtowing to syndicates coming in late with too little backing and asking for all sorts of concessions though B)

 

 

 

 

It's not just that which I have an issue with Dalton. Like I said, I like him, and appreciate straight-forward, no-bullshit interviews. I just don't think he needs to drop the hammer down as hard as he does WRT the teams that are trying to get their funding put together. It is kinda hypocritical, IMO, seeing he JUST got his funding nailed down, but acts as though other teams that are not quite there have not shot. How does he know how far behind in their R&D of the AC72 (remember, he does not seem to put that much stock in the AC45, anyway) teams like ET (although I believe he may give them props, right), Aleph, A4O, China, and even Korea are? It is kinda weak, I believe, to kick them as hard as he does while they are trying to sure up their funding, IMO. Beat them on the water, not while they are trying to get to the water. But, make no mistake, I am not overly troubled by it, just tempering, SLIGHTLY, the otherwise glowing love we get for GD around here. But hey, I would take him for the head of my program.

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Interesting that GD is confirming what we said here for a long time, Or did not put one but two poodles to reign. GD is pretty straight talking.

 

Good also that he recognized he was helped by government money. I am sure other teams ET would be happy to receive more than a blessing from the ministry of sport, mainly considering the importance of the nautical industry in their country.

Instead of investing billions in SNCF and RATP maybe they could help a bit the marine industry.

 

 

Being "friendly" is not exactly the same thing as being a "poodle". I don't know too many billionaires that are willing to be anyone's poodle, although they may share a similar vision and just want to try and win in a friendly rivalry on the water.

 

While I like Dalton's interviews, and see him as a very engaging guy, I am also not exactly fond of all his schtick. Saying he would basically fight everything the defender does is not exactly my idea of doing things in the best interest of the cup, like some around here would seem to think. Sure, contest stuff you don't like. But I would think, as a challenger, you have to give a little up to the defender, particularly when it seems as though they are trying to at least help the challengers catch up in many ways.

 

But I just don't see TT giving everything to Oracle.

 

 

Thanks ZG.

 

Unless there is a major upheaval the important decisions are made and those still to be made involve all the challengers not just the COR in most cases.

 

I think Grants comments were with regard to the form that AC34 would have taken with them as COR, rather than that they would like to dispute everything now that it is set.

 

Perhaps he has a problem with too much kowtowing to syndicates coming in late with too little backing and asking for all sorts of concessions though B)

 

 

 

 

It's not just that which I have an issue with Dalton. Like I said, I like him, and appreciate straight-forward, no-bullshit interviews. I just don't think he needs to drop the hammer down as hard as he does WRT the teams that are trying to get their funding put together. It is kinda hypocritical, IMO, seeing he JUST got his funding nailed down, but acts as though other teams that are not quite there have not shot. How does he know how far behind in their R&D of the AC72 (remember, he does not seem to put that much stock in the AC45, anyway) teams like ET (although I believe he may give them props, right), Aleph, A4O, China, and even Korea are? It is kinda weak, I believe, to kick them as hard as he does while they are trying to sure up their funding, IMO. Beat them on the water, not while they are trying to get to the water. But, make no mistake, I am not overly troubled by it, just tempering, SLIGHTLY, the otherwise glowing love we get for GD around here. But hey, I would take him for the head of my program.

 

Fair enough, but they are also playing under different rules now to those that applied when GD fund raised&announced

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Interesting that GD is confirming what we said here for a long time, Or did not put one but two poodles to reign. GD is pretty straight talking.

 

Good also that he recognized he was helped by government money. I am sure other teams ET would be happy to receive more than a blessing from the ministry of sport, mainly considering the importance of the nautical industry in their country.

Instead of investing billions in SNCF and RATP maybe they could help a bit the marine industry.

 

 

Being "friendly" is not exactly the same thing as being a "poodle". I don't know too many billionaires that are willing to be anyone's poodle, although they may share a similar vision and just want to try and win in a friendly rivalry on the water.

 

While I like Dalton's interviews, and see him as a very engaging guy, I am also not exactly fond of all his schtick. Saying he would basically fight everything the defender does is not exactly my idea of doing things in the best interest of the cup, like some around here would seem to think. Sure, contest stuff you don't like. But I would think, as a challenger, you have to give a little up to the defender, particularly when it seems as though they are trying to at least help the challengers catch up in many ways.

 

But I just don't see TT giving everything to Oracle.

 

 

Thanks ZG.

 

Unless there is a major upheaval the important decisions are made and those still to be made involve all the challengers not just the COR in most cases.

 

I think Grants comments were with regard to the form that AC34 would have taken with them as COR, rather than that they would like to dispute everything now that it is set.

 

Perhaps he has a problem with too much kowtowing to syndicates coming in late with too little backing and asking for all sorts of concessions though B)

 

 

 

 

It's not just that which I have an issue with Dalton. Like I said, I like him, and appreciate straight-forward, no-bullshit interviews. I just don't think he needs to drop the hammer down as hard as he does WRT the teams that are trying to get their funding put together. It is kinda hypocritical, IMO, seeing he JUST got his funding nailed down, but acts as though other teams that are not quite there have not shot. How does he know how far behind in their R&D of the AC72 (remember, he does not seem to put that much stock in the AC45, anyway) teams like ET (although I believe he may give them props, right), Aleph, A4O, China, and even Korea are? It is kinda weak, I believe, to kick them as hard as he does while they are trying to sure up their funding, IMO. Beat them on the water, not while they are trying to get to the water. But, make no mistake, I am not overly troubled by it, just tempering, SLIGHTLY, the otherwise glowing love we get for GD around here. But hey, I would take him for the head of my program.

 

Fair enough, but they are also playing under different rules now to those that applied when GD fund raised&announced

 

Absolutely understand that. And if they do make things easier for the newbies, ETNZ, Artemis, and CT should have whatever made available to them, too, if at all possible. In the end, though, they are likely to all benefit from having more teams in the program, and still not likely be threatened by the newbies too much on the water (other than ET, at this point - we'll see if anyone else is anything more than a start to a more competitive program down the road).

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Because ETNZ is purely sponsor driven team, Dalton needs as many countries in the Cup as he can get. A country without a team will not have much, if any, coverage of the Cup. So far we've got Sweden and NZL and probably China. China is a sure big enough market, there needs to be others besides Sweden and the home team, plus the US.

 

Dalton should be doing all he can to help more teams enter.

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Just Grant "What have you done for me lately?" Dalton being himself. OR simply need to throw him a discount on a second AC45, or a lucrative lease on a prime base in SF and he will shut up. Well at least until he wants a deal on something else. He's just pissed OR opened up the goodie bag and didn't let GD grab something out with his sticky fingers.

 

Where is TE when you need him to slap this shyster down. ;)

 

WetHog

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Because ETNZ is purely sponsor driven team, Dalton needs as many countries in the Cup as he can get.

 

He didn't say that. Dalton's main comment on getting sponsors was really limited to one thing...it must be in San Francisco. Considering all his sponsors are non-US based, the venue was the most important factor to him.

 

 

A country without a team will not have much, if any, coverage of the Cup.

 

US has a team and the race and not much coverage while countries with no teams now or in the past have coverage.

 

So far we've got Sweden and NZL and probably China. China is a sure big enough market, there needs to be others besides Sweden and the home team, plus the US.

 

So far we have US, NZ/Emirates, Sweden, Italy, France, Korea, China, Australia. If worldwide representation of the competitors is a sponsors concern, this is probably the America's Cup broadest world wide coverage. Whether a team is "competitive" is not really related to media coverage as the Jamaican bobsled team can attest.

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Another video from ZG: for what really matters, only Bruno and Francesco are qualified (Sam Davies just tagged along as a woman) - Grant was booted out when he suggested hangi ..

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Because ETNZ is purely sponsor driven team, Dalton needs as many countries in the Cup as he can get. A country without a team will not have much, if any, coverage of the Cup. So far we've got Sweden and NZL and probably China. China is a sure big enough market, there needs to be others besides Sweden and the home team, plus the US.

 

Dalton should be doing all he can to help more teams enter.

 

 

^ Ditto

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Another video from ZG: for what really matters, only Bruno and Francesco are qualified (Sam Davies just tagged along as a woman) - Grant was booted out when he suggested hangi ..

Wow, smooth Nespresso production there.

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Because ETNZ is purely sponsor driven team, Dalton needs as many countries in the Cup as he can get. A country without a team will not have much, if any, coverage of the Cup. So far we've got Sweden and NZL and probably China. China is a sure big enough market, there needs to be others besides Sweden and the home team, plus the US.

 

Dalton should be doing all he can to help more teams enter.

 

Is this the 'shotgun theory' of marketing? What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France? They'll look pretty silly if they haven't even appointed agents yet and people start clamouring for coffee/cars/watches/flights. Perhaps GD is very aware of their strategy, perhaps he feels the best return to his backers is to get as far as possible in the competition, then again perhaps he doesn't factor any of this into his answers.

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Because ETNZ is purely sponsor driven team, Dalton needs as many countries in the Cup as he can get.

 

He didn't say that. Dalton's main comment on getting sponsors was really limited to one thing...it must be in San Francisco. Considering all his sponsors are non-US based, the venue was the most important factor to him.

 

 

A country without a team will not have much, if any, coverage of the Cup.

 

US has a team and the race and not much coverage while countries with no teams now or in the past have coverage.

 

So far we've got Sweden and NZL and probably China. China is a sure big enough market, there needs to be others besides Sweden and the home team, plus the US.

 

So far we have US, NZ/Emirates, Sweden, Italy, France, Korea, China, Australia. If worldwide representation of the competitors is a sponsors concern, this is probably the America's Cup broadest world wide coverage. Whether a team is "competitive" is not really related to media coverage as the Jamaican bobsled team can attest.

 

I understand you want AC 34 to be a huge success, and so do I. I know and like more than a few people associated with GGYC and Oracle. But seriously dude, if you think that everything is just fine and that everyone inside GGYC, Oracle Racing, ACRM, ACEA, and ACOC are having a giant love-in up in the Haight, you are seriously smoking something nasty. It is hardly peace, love and tie-dye within and between all those organizations right now, and the dissatisfaction that guys like Grant and Bruno P are softselling is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

To date, ACEA has said they would give us 5 events this year, and we ended up with 3. Two of the events are in countries without teams, and one of the countries is in a world of financial hurt. To date, there is no TV contract with anyone, and other than LV, there are no sponsors (and it isn't even really clear what role LV has in the ACWS). Sure, there are countries that cover the event that don't have teams, but really, how meaningful is that coverage?

 

There are only four teams who have actively sailed the AC 45 - Oracle, Artemis, ETNZ, and China, who was late to the party. Anyone else who sailed on the boat was simply there as a tire kicker. No one else can be seen as even being remotely credible at this time. And credible will matter - not that I brought it up in the first place - and none of the teams who are announced, or behind the scenes have any sort of gimmick like the Jamaican bobsled team to gain attention. Sponsors don't get into things with the mandate to win, but they don't want to be a laughing stock either.

 

This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

So, sure, Dalton said SFO was the key in terms of them participating. But what we don't know is what assumptions he was making about how many other countries would be there, and how much media they would deliver as well.

 

I hope that ACEA starts to deliver some time soon, but the trend is clearly not good.

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What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

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What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

Didn't mean to suggest that it was Dalton's job and Dalton's alone to sell the AC in general, but it would be wise if all the teams helped each other to do that. A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

Of interest, I know what was said during the last Competitors meeting about 10 days ago, and the working the hardest to help the most teams stay in the game was probably the guy that many would least expect it to be.

 

Cayard.

 

He gets it.

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I hope that ACEA starts to deliver some time soon, but the trend is clearly not good.

My guess is they want to deliver an event before negotiating the longer term ones, because they believe they will be in a stronger position after they can point to the 'product' they can deliver. Cascais could count for a lot, I think both they and Plymouth are lucky to be first up.

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This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

Good grief, I've woken up in a parallel universe where I find myself agreeing with Huston. Very disorientating.

 

We've 3 teams in the picture with meaningful funding and 2 of those are from $Bs. For an event that was entirely structured around a proposition of sponsor value, that wasn't exactly the planned outcome. Furthermore - and I don't think this can be stressed enough - the only team that has got significant commercial sponsorship 1. has a long track record with most of their sponsors, which is a very different proposition to finding a full set of sponsors from scratch and 2. is in the unique position of having significant public money as well as commercial sponsorship. The other wannabes in the frame don't share those two critical head-starts.

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What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

Didn't mean to suggest that it was Dalton's job and Dalton's alone to sell the AC in general, but it would be wise if all the teams helped each other to do that. A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

Of interest, I know what was said during the last Competitors meeting about 10 days ago, and the working the hardest to help the most teams stay in the game was probably the guy that many would least expect it to be.

 

Cayard.

 

He gets it.

 

 

It's dalts job to deliver the cup back to NZ..why on earth should he help promote a team that might stop him from doing that...

He will best serve his sponsers er partners by being in the AC final in sf..

 

Cayard has a vested interest in his and his buddys super league being successfull..

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What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

To be honest, Peter begins to sound like a troll cracked record, with his 'only 3 venues & no TV deal' schtick. No doubt things have not gone as smoothly or as fast as the optimistic AC34 dates suggested but don't forget the RC quote where he said they had deliberately overreached.

Funny that the AC management gets a hard time on here if it appears they might be helping M.L. in any way, but at the same time they are held directly responsible for T.E.'s success or failure.

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This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

Good grief, I've woken up in a parallel universe where I find myself agreeing with Huston. Very disorientating.

 

We've 3 teams in the picture with meaningful funding and 2 of those are from $Bs. For an event that was entirely structured around a proposition of sponsor value, that wasn't exactly the planned outcome. Furthermore - and I don't think this can be stressed enough - the only team that has got significant commercial sponsorship 1. has a long track record with most of their sponsors, which is a very different proposition to finding a full set of sponsors from scratch and 2. is in the unique position of having significant public money as well as commercial sponsorship. The other wannabes in the frame don't share those two critical head-starts.

 

Ah, here was me thinking it was the French who had the longest ongoing sponsorships.

 

 

 

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It's dalts job to deliver the cup back to NZ..why on earth should he help promote a team that might stop him from doing that...

He will best serve his sponsers er partners by being in the AC final in sf..

 

Cayard has a vested interest in his and his buddys super league being successfull..

Agreed, Dalts and Cayard likely do have different goals, even if both also hope to win.

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This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

Good grief, I've woken up in a parallel universe where I find myself agreeing with Huston. Very disorientating.

 

 

Makes two of us, but I don't question gift horses :)

 

Rather, this reminds me of Larry's famous, initial statement. My reading is a bit different, he was tying it to - surprise, surprise - 60' soft-sail cats. That would have been entirely sustainable, and nobody has been able to explain what happened then.

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Ah, here was me thinking it was the French who had the longest ongoing sponsorships.

 

Is that so? Remind me please what sponsors the two French teams - both new as teams albeit with well-known sailors - have announced to date.

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Ah, here was me thinking it was the French who had the longest ongoing sponsorships.

 

Is that so? Remind me please what sponsors the two teams - both new teams - have announced to date.

I guess the difference is in how nav is pointing to Frecnh sponsorship of multihull racing in the larger picture (tons of it) versus your pointing to specifically past French AC campaigns (not that much). But Areva may be the 'Energy' for ET?

 

That Aleph entry into the RC44 circuit ~could~ be a promising sign. The new owner of the boat that was named 17 (Js's ride) is a 'Hugues Lepic' with Goldman Sachs, looks to be very well connected.

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That Aleph entry into the RC44 circuit ~could~ be a promising sign.

 

I'd be very happy to see one or more competitive French entries. I'm a fan of French sailing. Can't say I see an entry to the RC44 circuit however as promising in the slightest.

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It's dalts job to deliver the cup back to NZ..why on earth should he help promote a team that might stop him from doing that...

He will best serve his sponsers er partners by being in the AC final in sf..

 

Cayard has a vested interest in his and his buddys super league being successfull..

Agreed, Dalts and Cayard likely do have different goals, even if both also hope to win.

 

Same goal - continued employment, money.

 

Nothing wrong with it either, what drives the game today.

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I understand you want AC 34 to be a huge success, and so do I. I know and like more than a few people associated with GGYC and Oracle. But seriously dude, if you think that everything is just fine and that everyone inside GGYC, Oracle Racing, ACRM, ACEA, and ACOC are having a giant love-in up in the Haight, you are seriously smoking something nasty. It is hardly peace, love and tie-dye within and between all those organizations right now, and the dissatisfaction that guys like Grant and Bruno P are softselling is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

To date, ACEA has said they would give us 5 events this year, and we ended up with 3. Two of the events are in countries without teams, and one of the countries is in a world of financial hurt. To date, there is no TV contract with anyone, and other than LV, there are no sponsors (and it isn't even really clear what role LV has in the ACWS). Sure, there are countries that cover the event that don't have teams, but really, how meaningful is that coverage?

 

There are only four teams who have actively sailed the AC 45 - Oracle, Artemis, ETNZ, and China, who was late to the party. Anyone else who sailed on the boat was simply there as a tire kicker. No one else can be seen as even being remotely credible at this time. And credible will matter - not that I brought it up in the first place - and none of the teams who are announced, or behind the scenes have any sort of gimmick like the Jamaican bobsled team to gain attention. Sponsors don't get into things with the mandate to win, but they don't want to be a laughing stock either.

 

This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

So, sure, Dalton said SFO was the key in terms of them participating. But what we don't know is what assumptions he was making about how many other countries would be there, and how much media they would deliver as well.

 

I hope that ACEA starts to deliver some time soon, but the trend is clearly not good.

 

 

Great post. If you are saying Peyron's comment about "timing" is that the organizers need to nail down all the venues over the next two years, I think that is a very likely situation. Whoever thought he meant that the organizers need to push the AC back another year, well, first of all, I don't see where that was said (and I am hanging myself out there to get whacked if I missed it). But I think it would be very reasonable to believe he was, reasonably, pushing the organizers to firm up the timing, to get the damned ball rolling on course for the next two years.

 

What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

 

Selling the AC is different than simply not sabotaging teams.

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What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

Didn't mean to suggest that it was Dalton's job and Dalton's alone to sell the AC in general, but it would be wise if all the teams helped each other to do that. A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

Of interest, I know what was said during the last Competitors meeting about 10 days ago, and the working the hardest to help the most teams stay in the game was probably the guy that many would least expect it to be.

 

Cayard.

 

He gets it.

 

 

It's dalts job to deliver the cup back to NZ..why on earth should he help promote a team that might stop him from doing that...

He will best serve his sponsers er partners by being in the AC final in sf..

 

Cayard has a vested interest in his and his buddys super league being successfull..

 

You are forgetting that his sponsors do not just want the Cup back in New Zealand (and in fact, I'm guessing Nespresso and Emirates couldn't give two shits about that other than it would mean the team they happen to be currently sponsoring won). Emirates and Nespresso want the most bang for the buck, and they would MUCH MUCH MUCH prefer that the AC be as widely followed in Europe, Australia, and beyond, as possible, and that would be facilitated by having as many teams from those places.

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\Great post. If you are saying Peyron's comment about "timing" is that the organizers need to nail down all the venues over the next two years, I think that is a very likely situation. Whoever thought he meant that the organizers need to push the AC back another year, well, first of all, I don't see where that was said (and I am hanging myself out there to get whacked if I missed it). But I think it would be very reasonable to believe he was, reasonably, pushing the organizers to firm up the timing, to get the damned ball rolling on course for the next two years.

I mentioned LP wanting a delay, and saw it here

 

"I problemi non mancano – spiega Peyron – soprattutto per quanto riguarda il tempo a nostra disposizione. "The problems there - said Peyron - are especially as regards the time available to us. Siamo si degli specialisti, ma non abbiamo esperienza negli AC72, avremmo bisogno di un po' di tempo per organizzarci al meglio. We are the specialists, but we do not have experience in AC72, we need a little time to better organize. Utilizzando una metafora musicale, non basta conoscere bene uno strumento per saperlo suonare bene. Using a musical metaphor, it is not enough to know a good instrument to know how to play it well. Credo che sia un problema di tutti i sindacati: abbiamo provato a chiedere all'organizzazione per dilazionare l'evento (in programma dal 13 luglio al 22 settembre 2013 a San Francisco, ndr), ma quelli non ti rispondono mai". I think it's a problem for all the teams, we have tried to ask the organization to postpone the event (scheduled from July 13 to September 22, 2013 in San Francisco, ed), but they have never agreed it. " (translation improvement welcome)

 

 

It is not made clear what it is exactly that he wants delayed, perhaps the ed's comment in there threw me off into thinking it was the 2013 he is asking to change. He would get a big argument from the likes of VO and GD, let alone from GGYC, if he really is asking for 2014. I just don't see a snowball's chance in hell of that happening absent something very insurmountable.

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I understand you want AC 34 to be a huge success, and so do I. I know and like more than a few people associated with GGYC and Oracle. But seriously dude, if you think that everything is just fine and that everyone inside GGYC, Oracle Racing, ACRM, ACEA, and ACOC are having a giant love-in up in the Haight, you are seriously smoking something nasty. It is hardly peace, love and tie-dye within and between all those organizations right now, and the dissatisfaction that guys like Grant and Bruno P are softselling is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

To date, ACEA has said they would give us 5 events this year, and we ended up with 3. Two of the events are in countries without teams, and one of the countries is in a world of financial hurt. To date, there is no TV contract with anyone, and other than LV, there are no sponsors (and it isn't even really clear what role LV has in the ACWS). Sure, there are countries that cover the event that don't have teams, but really, how meaningful is that coverage?

 

There are only four teams who have actively sailed the AC 45 - Oracle, Artemis, ETNZ, and China, who was late to the party. Anyone else who sailed on the boat was simply there as a tire kicker. No one else can be seen as even being remotely credible at this time. And credible will matter - not that I brought it up in the first place - and none of the teams who are announced, or behind the scenes have any sort of gimmick like the Jamaican bobsled team to gain attention. Sponsors don't get into things with the mandate to win, but they don't want to be a laughing stock either.

 

This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

So, sure, Dalton said SFO was the key in terms of them participating. But what we don't know is what assumptions he was making about how many other countries would be there, and how much media they would deliver as well.

 

I hope that ACEA starts to deliver some time soon, but the trend is clearly not good.

 

 

Great post. If you are saying Peyron's comment about "timing" is that the organizers need to nail down all the venues over the next two years, I think that is a very likely situation. Whoever thought he meant that the organizers need to push the AC back another year, well, first of all, I don't see where that was said (and I am hanging myself out there to get whacked if I missed it). But I think it would be very reasonable to believe he was, reasonably, pushing the organizers to firm up the timing, to get the damned ball rolling on course for the next two years.

 

What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

 

Selling the AC is different than simply not sabotaging teams.

 

 

and....not sabotaging teams is different to expecting all teams to compete under the same rules

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I understand you want AC 34 to be a huge success, and so do I. I know and like more than a few people associated with GGYC and Oracle. But seriously dude, if you think that everything is just fine and that everyone inside GGYC, Oracle Racing, ACRM, ACEA, and ACOC are having a giant love-in up in the Haight, you are seriously smoking something nasty. It is hardly peace, love and tie-dye within and between all those organizations right now, and the dissatisfaction that guys like Grant and Bruno P are softselling is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

After GD wins in SF, the AC will return to Aotearoa.

 

For a defence staged in Mount Maunganui.

 

At that time, the problems will be sorted.

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Postponing the AC would most likely mean pushing it to 2015, which is way too far out. I suppose they could do the AC in June/July, before the Olympics, in 2014, but I don't think anyone wants to push it up that far in the year, for several reasons, not the least of which is the weather in San Francisco earlier in the year not being as nice as later in the year. Fog, being just one possible issue trying to race earlier in the year. Would be a good way to render all that bitching high-tech stuff as junk.

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^^ In 2014, it's the Winter Olympics (Feb?) in Sochi, Russia and the Soccer World Cup (Jun/Jul) in Brazil.

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I understand you want AC 34 to be a huge success, and so do I. I know and like more than a few people associated with GGYC and Oracle. But seriously dude, if you think that everything is just fine and that everyone inside GGYC, Oracle Racing, ACRM, ACEA, and ACOC are having a giant love-in up in the Haight, you are seriously smoking something nasty. It is hardly peace, love and tie-dye within and between all those organizations right now, and the dissatisfaction that guys like Grant and Bruno P are softselling is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

After GD wins in SF, the AC will return to Aotearoa.

 

For a defence staged in Mount Maunganui.

 

At that time, the problems will be sorted.

Yes, of course they will be. At least for hulaing blackhearts in plastic big boats and GD... For everyone else, not so much I think. :rolleyes: What would the point of a non-contentious AC be? Thankfully it will never happen.

 

I have trouble taking GD's beefing all that seriously. It's not that he he hasn't got valid points. But, he's so obviously playing a game that every time I hear him talk I think of this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm7K4VM_7Rg&playnext=1&list=PL67BA08881AD4BCEE

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I understand you want AC 34 to be a huge success, and so do I. I know and like more than a few people associated with GGYC and Oracle. But seriously dude, if you think that everything is just fine and that everyone inside GGYC, Oracle Racing, ACRM, ACEA, and ACOC are having a giant love-in up in the Haight, you are seriously smoking something nasty. It is hardly peace, love and tie-dye within and between all those organizations right now, and the dissatisfaction that guys like Grant and Bruno P are softselling is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

To date, ACEA has said they would give us 5 events this year, and we ended up with 3. Two of the events are in countries without teams, and one of the countries is in a world of financial hurt. To date, there is no TV contract with anyone, and other than LV, there are no sponsors (and it isn't even really clear what role LV has in the ACWS). Sure, there are countries that cover the event that don't have teams, but really, how meaningful is that coverage?

 

There are only four teams who have actively sailed the AC 45 - Oracle, Artemis, ETNZ, and China, who was late to the party. Anyone else who sailed on the boat was simply there as a tire kicker. No one else can be seen as even being remotely credible at this time. And credible will matter - not that I brought it up in the first place - and none of the teams who are announced, or behind the scenes have any sort of gimmick like the Jamaican bobsled team to gain attention. Sponsors don't get into things with the mandate to win, but they don't want to be a laughing stock either.

 

This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

So, sure, Dalton said SFO was the key in terms of them participating. But what we don't know is what assumptions he was making about how many other countries would be there, and how much media they would deliver as well.

 

I hope that ACEA starts to deliver some time soon, but the trend is clearly not good.

 

 

Great post. If you are saying Peyron's comment about "timing" is that the organizers need to nail down all the venues over the next two years, I think that is a very likely situation. Whoever thought he meant that the organizers need to push the AC back another year, well, first of all, I don't see where that was said (and I am hanging myself out there to get whacked if I missed it). But I think it would be very reasonable to believe he was, reasonably, pushing the organizers to firm up the timing, to get the damned ball rolling on course for the next two years.

 

What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

 

Selling the AC is different than simply not sabotaging teams.

 

How precisely are other teams being "sabotaged" by Dalton's stating what every blind person can see already, except for you OR sycophants!? The ACWSL in AC45s is a nothing programme, set up as a training programme for teams "new" to cats. Commercial sponsors want to see realistic returns for their money: ETNZ's success in securing sponsors may have been made easier by showing potential new sponsors (Nespresso) and old faithfuls, that NZ Inc was putting in NZ$36mil. Show me another "announced team" who has that ace up their sleeve, either national government money or billionaire benefactor.

 

As for the de-coupling, I suspect the de-coupling of the AC45s as a prequalification and prerequisite for the AC72s and CSS AC72 maybe more legally-motivated than charity on the part of GGYC/OR. A team like ET, arguably the team with most experience in cats, could conceivably argue a case (under EU legislation) of Restraint of Trade over being excluded from the CSS just because they did not participate in the trainee ACWSL/45s: why should they participate in the AC45 trainee programme when they could possibly be the trainers? By de-coupling the trainee programme, GGYC/OR are protecting themselves.

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I don't see where anyone is arguing to not race the AC45's. A lot has actually been said in support of it. That 14 teams in all are trying to get on board also suggests the sentiment is widespread.

 

Sponsorship wise, it surely produces far greater values than the similar sized X40s, and the tweets coverage out of that, and yet teams are happy even to compete in that.

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I understand you want AC 34 to be a huge success, and so do I. I know and like more than a few people associated with GGYC and Oracle. But seriously dude, if you think that everything is just fine and that everyone inside GGYC, Oracle Racing, ACRM, ACEA, and ACOC are having a giant love-in up in the Haight, you are seriously smoking something nasty. It is hardly peace, love and tie-dye within and between all those organizations right now, and the dissatisfaction that guys like Grant and Bruno P are softselling is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

To date, ACEA has said they would give us 5 events this year, and we ended up with 3. Two of the events are in countries without teams, and one of the countries is in a world of financial hurt. To date, there is no TV contract with anyone, and other than LV, there are no sponsors (and it isn't even really clear what role LV has in the ACWS). Sure, there are countries that cover the event that don't have teams, but really, how meaningful is that coverage?

 

There are only four teams who have actively sailed the AC 45 - Oracle, Artemis, ETNZ, and China, who was late to the party. Anyone else who sailed on the boat was simply there as a tire kicker. No one else can be seen as even being remotely credible at this time. And credible will matter - not that I brought it up in the first place - and none of the teams who are announced, or behind the scenes have any sort of gimmick like the Jamaican bobsled team to gain attention. Sponsors don't get into things with the mandate to win, but they don't want to be a laughing stock either.

 

This whole Cup was structured to be able to support the teams that can only make it to the starting line via sponsorship. Every teams needs someone with money to start, and I'm think that when Larry made his comment about needing only $5 million (or whatever the number was) that is what he was talking about - that for some guy with $5 million to burn, he could fund the start up of a team, and then get the sponsorship for the rest. With no confirmed media coverage, and no venues for the AC 45 other than the three we know about, there is nothing to sell for a team, even like Energy, in terms of the ACWS in AC45's. What was supposed to deliver sponsor value is not, and this is a cash drain on the teams that can't afford the cash drain. My read on Bruno P's comment - that is the timing he is talking about.

 

So, sure, Dalton said SFO was the key in terms of them participating. But what we don't know is what assumptions he was making about how many other countries would be there, and how much media they would deliver as well.

 

I hope that ACEA starts to deliver some time soon, but the trend is clearly not good.

 

 

Great post. If you are saying Peyron's comment about "timing" is that the organizers need to nail down all the venues over the next two years, I think that is a very likely situation. Whoever thought he meant that the organizers need to push the AC back another year, well, first of all, I don't see where that was said (and I am hanging myself out there to get whacked if I missed it). But I think it would be very reasonable to believe he was, reasonably, pushing the organizers to firm up the timing, to get the damned ball rolling on course for the next two years.

 

What if Nespresso, Toyota, Omega or Emirates has no product to offer in say China or France?

 

I think you'll find they have.

 

Whether however it's GD's job to sell the AC in general, as Huston suggests, I tend to doubt. Working for his team and his sponsors would seem task enough for even GD's broad shoulders.

 

 

Selling the AC is different than simply not sabotaging teams.

 

How precisely are other teams being "sabotaged" by Dalton's stating what every blind person can see already, except for you OR sycophants!? The ACWSL in AC45s is a nothing programme, set up as a training programme for teams "new" to cats. Commercial sponsors want to see realistic returns for their money: ETNZ's success in securing sponsors may have been made easier by showing potential new sponsors (Nespresso) and old faithfuls, that NZ Inc was putting in NZ$36mil. Show me another "announced team" who has that ace up their sleeve, either national government money or billionaire benefactor.

 

As for the de-coupling, I suspect the de-coupling of the AC45s as a prequalification and prerequisite for the AC72s and CSS AC72 maybe more legally-motivated than charity on the part of GGYC/OR. A team like ET, arguably the team with most experience in cats, could conceivably argue a case (under EU legislation) of Restraint of Trade over being excluded from the CSS just because they did not participate in the trainee ACWSL/45s: why should they participate in the AC45 trainee programme when they could possibly be the trainers? By de-coupling the trainee programme, GGYC/OR are protecting themselves.

 

First of all, not being a hater is hardly the same as being an Oracle sycophant. I have very little affection for Oracle as a company or a team. I do respect them, significantly, for finally bringing the AC up to the top of the sport in terms of boats, and making the biggest effort ever to make the sport the best possible for fans. I would be far from disappointed if an American defense challenger beat Oracle.

 

Next, from what we currently know, any team wanting to participate in the America's Cup still has to race in the ACWS, just that they don't lose nearly as much money if they have to end their effort after the 2011 ACWS schedule. This will hopefully make it possible for more teams to keep working on succeeding in funding their AC programs. I see no grounds, AT ALL, for your claim regarding potential suite by a team like ET for Restraint of Trade. Frankly, that is absurd.

 

I REALLY want this AC to be successful, not because I love Oracle, but because I love fast boats, and I really want to be able to see fast boats sailing with great coverage. If AC34 was to fail, and somehow we either lose out on having fast boats in the future, or we end up forever losing the opportunity for great coverage of such racing, or both, then I will be very disappointed. I don't want to see 60' soft-sailed boats that barely look any better than X40s, that would get creamed by MOD70s if they were ever to race. I can't wait to see absurd 72'ers, ripping around close to shore, with incredible coverage.

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Agreed completely.

 

But on OR and the over-used sycophant word tossed around, I have no problem admitting that I like what they do, and wish them well Defending.

 

As just a fan this whole AC34 process has been remarkably open so far and interesting to follow. Some of it, like the event paperwork in SF being required-public, may not have been their preference, but we have seen in almost real-time the evolution of the AC45, the willingness of several people from IM on down to be open and honest, and a pretty serious effort to keep us informed generally. There is an open mindedness that KL has written about too, that really is quite remarkable. I credit the overall vision for all that and it strikes me as unprecedented on several levels. Pretty great start.

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Agreed completely.

 

But on OR and the over-used sycophant word tossed around, I have no problem admitting that I like what they do, and wish them well Defending.

 

As just a fan this whole AC34 process has been remarkably open so far and interesting to follow. Some of it, like the event paperwork in SF being required-public, may not have been their preference, but we have seen in almost real-time the evolution of the AC45, the willingness of several people from IM on down to be open and honest, and a pretty serious effort to keep us informed generally. There is an open mindedness that KL has written about too, that really is quite remarkable. I credit the overall vision for all that and it strikes me as unprecedented on several levels. Pretty great start.

 

Right on cue, head sycophant drops in with the usual OR PR crap.laugh.gif

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\Great post. If you are saying Peyron's comment about "timing" is that the organizers need to nail down all the venues over the next two years, I think that is a very likely situation. Whoever thought he meant that the organizers need to push the AC back another year, well, first of all, I don't see where that was said (and I am hanging myself out there to get whacked if I missed it). But I think it would be very reasonable to believe he was, reasonably, pushing the organizers to firm up the timing, to get the damned ball rolling on course for the next two years.

I mentioned LP wanting a delay, and saw it here

 

"I problemi non mancano – spiega Peyron – soprattutto per quanto riguarda il tempo a nostra disposizione. "The problems there - said Peyron - are especially as regards the time available to us. Siamo si degli specialisti, ma non abbiamo esperienza negli AC72, avremmo bisogno di un po' di tempo per organizzarci al meglio. We are the specialists, but we do not have experience in AC72, we need a little time to better organize. Utilizzando una metafora musicale, non basta conoscere bene uno strumento per saperlo suonare bene. Using a musical metaphor, it is not enough to know a good instrument to know how to play it well. Credo che sia un problema di tutti i sindacati: abbiamo provato a chiedere all'organizzazione per dilazionare l'evento (in programma dal 13 luglio al 22 settembre 2013 a San Francisco, ndr), ma quelli non ti rispondono mai". I think it's a problem for all the teams, we have tried to ask the organization to postpone the event (scheduled from July 13 to September 22, 2013 in San Francisco, ed), but they have never agreed it. " (translation improvement welcome)

 

 

It is not made clear what it is exactly that he wants delayed, perhaps the ed's comment in there threw me off into thinking it was the 2013 he is asking to change. He would get a big argument from the likes of VO and GD, let alone from GGYC, if he really is asking for 2014. I just don't see a snowball's chance in hell of that happening absent something very insurmountable.

 

Link with the french interview? Are you speaking of the video ?

 

I have never seen anything about postponing 2013.

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Indio, give those guys a break. Even you would have to recognize the challenge they are facing to make our collective obsession something mainstream, that can become a fun subject at Clubs and maybe even offices or local pubs, is a big mountain to climb.

 

They are trying and I wish them well.

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I don't see where anyone is arguing to not race the AC45's. A lot has actually been said in support of it. That 14 teams in all are trying to get on board also suggests the sentiment is widespread.

 

Sponsorship wise, it surely produces far greater values than the similar sized X40s, and the tweets coverage out of that, and yet teams are happy even to compete in that.

 

If we read closely the protocol and the amendment 7 challengers don't need anymore to race the AC45.

 

Article 21: Competitors are required to race in all regattas of the Event for which they are eligible

 

But now we have 2 events.

 

I don't think we will have more than 4 or 5 teams at the AC45 WS, but more at the AC 72 WS. Most of the teams look for time, not for ACWS in 3 months, they can't make it

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Indio, give those guys a break. Even you would have to recognize the challenge they are facing to make our collective obsession something mainstream, that can become a fun subject at Clubs and maybe even offices or local pubs, is a big mountain to climb.

 

They are trying and I wish them well.

 

No, if it isn't his team, it's crap.

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Next, from what we currently know, any team wanting to participate in the America's Cup still has to race in the ACWS, just that they don't lose nearly as much money if they have to end their effort after the 2011 ACWS schedule.

 

I have not been following the protocol amendments very closely, so simple question - how many ACWS races can a team skip before they are booted from the entry list? Are they out if they don't race in Cascais?

 

From the original protocol it looks like they could skip one, and lose some of their bond but not be out. However, its not clear from the language if this means one per ACWS season or one per AC cycle (3 ACWS seasons.

 

Then if they skipped two (again not clear if per season or per cycle) they lost all their bond and were out.

 

Is that still true? And is it per season or per cycle?

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I don't see where anyone is arguing to not race the AC45's. A lot has actually been said in support of it. That 14 teams in all are trying to get on board also suggests the sentiment is widespread.

 

Sponsorship wise, it surely produces far greater values than the similar sized X40s, and the tweets coverage out of that, and yet teams are happy even to compete in that.

 

If we read closely the protocol and the amendment 7 challengers don't need anymore to race the AC45.

 

Article 21: Competitors are required to race in all regattas of the Event for which they are eligible

 

But now we have 2 events.

 

I don't think we will have more than 4 or 5 teams at the AC45 WS, but more at the AC 72 WS. Most of the teams look for time, not for ACWS in 3 months, they can't make it

 

We will see. If we get great racing, but not a ton of teams for the first event or two, but then growing participation, and most importantly, 6+ teams for the AC, call me a happy guy. I just want to watch great boats with great coverage. Frankly, I don't give much of a damn who they are (although, I would prefer some compelling people, some rivalries, and some intrigue in the personalities - participation by the French and Italians, and Russians, would certainly help, in that regard).

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Click the 'here' link above.

 

Thanks, the original is in Italian. What is in (.... ), refering to 2013, is a note of the Ed so I don't think he was speaking of 2013.

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Next, from what we currently know, any team wanting to participate in the America's Cup still has to race in the ACWS, just that they don't lose nearly as much money if they have to end their effort after the 2011 ACWS schedule.

 

I have not been following the protocol amendments very closely, so simple question - how many ACWS races can a team skip before they are booted from the entry list? Are they out if they don't race in Cascais?

 

 

Good question. I don't know that there has been any definition for that. I was under the impression that you simply had to participate, with the implication that it is all races, but possibly some flexibility. Fact of the matter, the organizers have been pretty flexible, thus far, so it would not surprise me if they have boats available to charter for teams that have their own boats on order for the first two events (but I admittedly pulled that out of my ass).

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I don't see where anyone is arguing to not race the AC45's. A lot has actually been said in support of it. That 14 teams in all are trying to get on board also suggests the sentiment is widespread.

 

Sponsorship wise, it surely produces far greater values than the similar sized X40s, and the tweets coverage out of that, and yet teams are happy even to compete in that.

 

Then you are blind. As has been posted here recently

 

Bruno Peyron: "Since the announcement of the project in February, we have advanced on all compartments: technology, design, sports management, marketing, ... and we are very close to get there ... but to finalize our financial agreement, we are short of time. I also fear that the circuit AC45 as announced discourage partners .. I do not want to participate regardless of the lack of training that can by creating another. We will also compensate. Energy Team has clearly posed several questions to the organizers: the obligation to participate in the circuit AC45; penalty for late registration, organizational arrangements with the arrival of AC72, ... and waits for answers before committing. Bruno Peyron: "The Cultural Revolution and technical commitment is a very good thing, but in its process of organization, you must know to protect the public interest and that of applications that I call" commercial "...".

 

 

ET do not want to buy nor race an AC45.

 

Dalts has said several times that ETNZ will be glad when the AC45 ACWS is over. It is a financial cost and distraction that they don't want or need.

 

Bertrand Pace said in an interview earlier this year that they can enter the America's Cup without buying or competing in the AC45 ACWS. Wrong.

 

The Protocol had be changed to allows Clubs/Teams to pull out of the 'Event' (ACWS, CSS, Match) after the AC45 ACWS without forfeiting their $200,000 performance bond. This amendment wouldn't be needed if teams weren't considering this as an option.

 

Core are contracted to ACRM to build 10 AC45. I am sure that will be a watertight contract no matter how many teams want an AC45.

 

14 teams into 10 AC45's just doesn't work.

 

While we know that ML bought an AC45 we do not know what subsequent agreement they made with OR. Is the AC45 still being chartered or bought by OR? IM was being very coy in the interview with Richard Gladwell on that subject and the current status of ML.

 

Apart from all that it is all tickety boo. Yeah right.

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Next, from what we currently know, any team wanting to participate in the America's Cup still has to race in the ACWS, just that they don't lose nearly as much money if they have to end their effort after the 2011 ACWS schedule.

 

I have not been following the protocol amendments very closely, so simple question - how many ACWS races can a team skip before they are booted from the entry list? Are they out if they don't race in Cascais?

 

From the original protocol it looks like they could skip one, and lose some of their bond but not be out. However, its not clear from the language if this means one per ACWS season or one per AC cycle (3 ACWS seasons.

 

Then if they skipped two (again not clear if per season or per cycle) they lost all their bond and were out.

 

Is that still true? And is it per season or per cycle?

 

Estar, here is the last amendment 7:

 

Article 9.1©

Existing language:

“by 30 April 2011, a performance bond of US$200,000 to assure a Competitor’s

participation in the Event, and compliance with this Protocol;”

to be replaced by:

“by 30 April 2011, a performance bond of US$200,000 to assure a Competitor’s

participation in the AC World Series held in AC45 Yachts until commencement of the

AC World Series using AC72 Yachts and compliance with this Protocol during that

period;”

3. Article 9.1(d)

Existing language:

“by 31 December 2011 or earlier if required by Article 11.4©, an additional

performance bond of US$800,000 to assure a Competitor’s participation in the Event

and compliance with this Protocol. For the avoidance of doubt, if not so paid the

bond paid by the respective Competitor pursuant to Article 9.1 © shall be forfeited.”

to be replaced by:

“by 31 December 2011 an additional performance bond of US$800,000 to assure a

Competitor’s participation in the AC World Series Regattas using AC72 Yachts and

the Regatta and continuing compliance with this Protocol.”

 

There is clear cut between the 2 events.

 

The article 21 of the protocol is unchanged: Competitors are required to race in all regattas of the Event for which they are eligible

 

There is no question of number of races.

 

It looks clear to me that there are 2 events now and that the first is not required anymore. Not sure all the teams understood that.

 

IMO, ACEA had to to save the event, which is good though.

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Agreed GG, because IM has said to expect ten boats in Cascais but even more at subsequent events. Teams will not get DSQd for the reason of not having received their boat yet.

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Agreed GG, because IM has said to expect ten boats in Cascais but even more at subsequent events. Teams will not get DSQd for the reason of not having received their boat yet.

 

 

As I recall he was very careful to say "10 boats" and not 10 teams.

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Good question. I don't know that there has been any definition for that. I was under the impression that you simply had to participate, with the implication that it is all races, but possibly some flexibility. Fact of the matter, the organizers have been pretty flexible, thus far, so it would not surprise me if they have boats available to charter for teams that have their own boats on order for the first two events (but I admittedly pulled that out of my ass).

 

Most honest comment from you in a while laugh.gif. What you call "flexible" I call "expedient"...

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Next, from what we currently know, any team wanting to participate in the America's Cup still has to race in the ACWS, just that they don't lose nearly as much money if they have to end their effort after the 2011 ACWS schedule.

 

I have not been following the protocol amendments very closely, so simple question - how many ACWS races can a team skip before they are booted from the entry list? Are they out if they don't race in Cascais?

 

 

Good question. I don't know that there has been any definition for that. I was under the impression that you simply had to participate, with the implication that it is all races, but possibly some flexibility. Fact of the matter, the organizers have been pretty flexible, thus far, so it would not surprise me if they have boats available to charter for teams that have their own boats on order for the first two events (but I admittedly pulled that out of my ass).

 

Read the Protocol. Miss one AC45 ACWS Regatta, forfeit $150,000 of the $200,000 performance bond. Miss a second regatta and you are no longer eligible for the 'Event'. Do not pass go, do not collect $200,000.

 

Miss a race in the AC45 ACWS and you forfeit $10,000 for each race missed.

 

For the AC72 ACWS the figures are $500,000 for a missed regatta and $50,000 for a missed race.

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The numbers are so low compared to the original, and so low compared to EB's AC32 demands, that they are basically meaningless. It is the due dates some are bitching about, perhaps with good reason, but 14 is far too many IMO anyway. I hope the IJ gets ruthless.

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Estar, here is the last amendment 7:

 

 

 

TC, Thanks. I am not skilled enough at reading this language, but I am looking at article 21 in the original protocol. Has there been a modification to this article?

 

21 REQUIREMENT TO RACE

 

21.1 Competitors are required to race in all regattas of the Event for which they are eligible. and for a second failure to attend a regatta the Competitor shall forfeit the balance of their Performance Bond and shall cease to be eligible for the EventNow the protocol explicitly defines (1y) 'the event' to include both the ACWS and the actual AC regatta.

 

So, unless 21 has been modified, it would seem missing any two races in any of the ACWS would get a team booted. With a little flexibility from "21.2 Unless the Regatta Director is satisfied on reasonable grounds that a failure to race was due to unintended damage or circumstances beyond the reasonable control of the Competitor."

 

So, I see from what you posted that a competitor can now step out and not lose as much bond as in the original protocol, but unless 21 has been modified, it looks to my uneducated eye that racing in the AC45/ACWS is still required, and a team can potentially miss one regatta but not two.

 

edit: I see kiwi_jon seems to agree

 

If that's true then we should 'know' who's in by mid september. Anyone who has missed both Cascais, Portugal: 6-14 August 2011 and Plymouth, England: 10-18 September 2011 is completely out (except for circumstances beyond the competitors control)

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My understanding is that you have to post your $8HK bond in December to be eligible for the AC72 and beyond.

 

Teams posting it will obviously be deep into builds by that time anyway, or not.

 

Pretenders will have been sorted out long before December.

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Agreed GG, because IM has said to expect ten boats in Cascais but even more at subsequent events. Teams will not get DSQd for the reason of not having received their boat yet.

 

IM has not said that teams will not get penalised for not having a boat in the first regatta in fact teams have been warned that if they leave the ordering of their AC45 too late to fit into production schedules and transport schedules they put at risk any relief they may have under Article 21 (Requirement to Race)

 

Regatta Notice 2011/18

 

AC45 yachts need to be ordered in sufficient time allow for production.

Competitors who have not ordered an AC45 yacht in sufficient time to

allow for both production and delivery will put at risk any relief from

their obligation under art. 21 of the Protocol to compete in the ACWS.

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Good question. I don't know that there has been any definition for that. I was under the impression that you simply had to participate, with the implication that it is all races, but possibly some flexibility. Fact of the matter, the organizers have been pretty flexible, thus far, so it would not surprise me if they have boats available to charter for teams that have their own boats on order for the first two events (but I admittedly pulled that out of my ass).

 

Most honest comment from you in a while laugh.gif. What you call "flexible" I call "expedient"...

 

 

Find ONE SINGLE dishonest comment from me. Seriously.

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Estar, here is the last amendment 7:

 

 

 

TC, Thanks. I am not skilled enough at reading this language, but I am looking at article 21 in the original protocol. Has there been a modification to this article?

 

21 REQUIREMENT TO RACE

 

21.1 Competitors are required to race in all regattas of the Event for which they are eligible. and for a second failure to attend a regatta the Competitor shall forfeit the balance of their Performance Bond and shall cease to be eligible for the EventNow the protocol explicitly defines (1y) 'the event' to include both the ACWS and the actual AC regatta.

 

So, unless 21 has been modified, it would seem missing any two races in any of the ACWS would get a team booted. With a little flexibility from "21.2 Unless the Regatta Director is satisfied on reasonable grounds that a failure to race was due to unintended damage or circumstances beyond the reasonable control of the Competitor."

 

So, I see from what you posted that a competitor can now step out and not lose as much bond as in the original protocol, but unless 21 has been modified, it looks to my uneducated eye that racing in the AC45/ACWS is still required, and a team can potentially miss one regatta but not two.

 

edit: I see kiwi_jon seems to agree

 

If that's true then we should 'know' who's in by mid september. Anyone who has missed both Cascais, Portugal: 6-14 August 2011 and Plymouth, England: 10-18 September 2011 is completely out (except for circumstances beyond the competitors control)

 

Thanks Estar.

 

Strange, where did you find this version of the 21.1 ?

 

Here is the one I have from the the official site. 21.1 has not been changed, while the figures of the bond of 21.2 have been amended.

 

REQUIREMENT TO RACE

21.1 Competitors are required to race in all regattas of the Event for which they are eligible.

Unless the Race Officer considers conditions too rough, the race committee intends to

start races when the approximate average true wind speed is between 3 and 33 knots

as measured on the race committee signal boat at 6m above the water.

 

 

The only penalty I see is financial, so if they don't pay the bond they are OK.

And if they don't participate to the AC45 WS they are not eligible.

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Thanks Estar.

 

Strange, where did you find this version of the 21.1 ?

 

 

sorry I did not cut and paste very well. read down to 21.2 ii and you see the language that after two missed regattas they seem to get booted.

 

Of course an interesting question is whether 'inability to raise sufficient funds to both buy an ac45 and build an ac72' is deemed to be "beyond the reasonable control of theCompetitor:" If it is then a competitor can skip the 45's and just say they could not raise enough money.The text that Kiwi_jon posted above suggests ACEA is trying to discourage that strategy, but we will see when push comes to shove whether they will hold their position or back down.

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Thanks Estar.

 

Strange, where did you find this version of the 21.1 ?

 

 

sorry I did not cut and paste very well. read down to 21.2 ii and you see the language that after two missed regattas they seem to get booted.

 

Of course an interesting question is whether 'inability to raise sufficient funds to both buy an ac45 and build an ac72' is deemed to be "beyond the reasonable control of theCompetitor:" If it is then a competitor can skip the 45's and just say they could not raise enough money.The text that Kiwi_jon posted above suggests ACEA is trying to discourage that strategy, but we will see when push comes to shove whether they will hold their position or back down.

 

You are right, the acticle 21.2 was amended to change the figures of the bond but did not change the rest.

 

However the amendment 7 does not refer any more to the participation to the event but

to the participation of AC42 and AC72 WS.

 

Also, here is the definition of event:

Event means the Regatta, the AC World Series and any Special Events.

 

There is also, as you say, the "beyond the reasonable control of the competitor"

 

I am 99% sure that the AC45 WS won't be required and that they will write a new amendment, if necessary, to clarify everything.

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If it is then a competitor can skip the 45's and just say they could not raise enough money.The text that Kiwi_jon posted above suggests ACEA is trying to discourage that strategy, but we will see when push comes to shove whether they will hold their position or back down.

 

It will probably come down to how much AC34 feels that the teams need to demonstrate competence and be familiar with the AC34 race requirements from boat handling and race mechanics to having camera men and other broadcast equipment on board. if they find there's a real learning curve they may be strict on enforcing the AC45 race rules.

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Larry wants to wins the AC but even more to make a success in his own city. He does not care about the AC45 WS, he wants to bring as much as possible of AC72 in SF for the show.

 

TV is just an extra to make a better show.

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Selling the AC is different than simply not sabotaging teams.

 

Come on, describing GD's remarks as sabotage is ridiculously hyperbolic. It seems that in the eyes of some here, any remark that isn't totally supportive of the present direction of AC34 is unacceptable negativity. Relentless feigned cheerfulness may be part of the American Way but thank God some of the rest of the world prefers something closer to honesty. Now be sure to have a nice day.

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Selling the AC is different than simply not sabotaging teams.

 

Come on, describing GD's remarks as sabotage is ridiculously hyperbolic. It seems that in the eyes of some here, any remark that isn't totally supportive of the present direction of AC34 is unacceptable negativity. Relentless feigned cheerfulness may be part of the American Way but thank God some of the rest of the world prefers something closer to honesty. Now be sure to have a nice day.

Yup, 300M Americans living in total denial and the rest of the world closer to honesty.

 

Thanks for figuring that out for us, at least now we know :).

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\Great post. If you are saying Peyron's comment about "timing" is that the organizers need to nail down all the venues over the next two years, I think that is a very likely situation. Whoever thought he meant that the organizers need to push the AC back another year, well, first of all, I don't see where that was said (and I am hanging myself out there to get whacked if I missed it). But I think it would be very reasonable to believe he was, reasonably, pushing the organizers to firm up the timing, to get the damned ball rolling on course for the next two years.

I mentioned LP wanting a delay, and saw it here

 

"I problemi non mancano – spiega Peyron – soprattutto per quanto riguarda il tempo a nostra disposizione. "The problems there - said Peyron - are especially as regards the time available to us. Siamo si degli specialisti, ma non abbiamo esperienza negli AC72, avremmo bisogno di un po' di tempo per organizzarci al meglio. We are the specialists, but we do not have experience in AC72, we need a little time to better organize. Utilizzando una metafora musicale, non basta conoscere bene uno strumento per saperlo suonare bene. Using a musical metaphor, it is not enough to know a good instrument to know how to play it well. Credo che sia un problema di tutti i sindacati: abbiamo provato a chiedere all'organizzazione per dilazionare l'evento (in programma dal 13 luglio al 22 settembre 2013 a San Francisco, ndr), ma quelli non ti rispondono mai". I think it's a problem for all the teams, we have tried to ask the organization to postpone the event (scheduled from July 13 to September 22, 2013 in San Francisco, ed), but they have never agreed it. " (translation improvement welcome)

 

 

the correct translation is :"but those people never answer you"

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Agreed completely.

 

But on OR and the over-used sycophant word tossed around, I have no problem admitting that I like what they do, and wish them well Defending.

 

As just a fan this whole AC34 process has been remarkably open so far and interesting to follow. Some of it, like the event paperwork in SF being required-public, may not have been their preference, but we have seen in almost real-time the evolution of the AC45, the willingness of several people from IM on down to be open and honest, and a pretty serious effort to keep us informed generally. There is an open mindedness that KL has written about too, that really is quite remarkable. I credit the overall vision for all that and it strikes me as unprecedented on several levels. Pretty great start.

 

The problem is that Peter H. and a few others who would be taken as insiders, claim that there is seething discontent and mutinous mutterings in every sailor bar they frequent. Added to this is the fact that because their blinkered yacht club buddies aren't up to speed on all things AC, it must be heading for disaster!

 

Who to believe??

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Thanks Estar.

 

Strange, where did you find this version of the 21.1 ?

 

 

sorry I did not cut and paste very well. read down to 21.2 ii and you see the language that after two missed regattas they seem to get booted.

 

Of course an interesting question is whether 'inability to raise sufficient funds to both buy an ac45 and build an ac72' is deemed to be "beyond the reasonable control of theCompetitor:" If it is then a competitor can skip the 45's and just say they could not raise enough money.The text that Kiwi_jon posted above suggests ACEA is trying to discourage that strategy, but we will see when push comes to shove whether they will hold their position or back down.

 

You are right, the acticle 21.2 was amended to change the figures of the bond but did not change the rest.

 

However the amendment 7 does not refer any more to the participation to the event but

to the participation of AC42 and AC72 WS.

 

Also, here is the definition of event:

Event means the Regatta, the AC World Series and any Special Events.

 

There is also, as you say, the "beyond the reasonable control of the competitor"

 

I am 99% sure that the AC45 WS won't be required and that they will write a new amendment, if necessary, to clarify everything.

 

In the original thinking the 'for any event for which they are eligible' language would have been placed there as some competitors would proceed further through the 'event' than others (for example some making it to the semis of the CSS while others drop out) and the same would potentially apply during each ACWS 'week' depending on the formats eventually chosen.

 

The reason the two bond sections now refer to ACWS-45 and ACWS-72 separately is that the bonds now apply to each separately. This does not (yet) remove the requirement to complete ACWS-45 though, that is clearly a required part of the 'event', (with clear penalties for any missed series or race, up to a total DSQ and loss of performance bonds)

 

 

The beyond reasonable control of the competitor language was there to cover boat breakages, transport issues etc, not 'we couldn't raise the money Sir' Be fun to see that approach taken seriously though B)

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The problem is that Peter H. and a few others who would be taken as insiders, claim that there is seething discontent and mutinous mutterings in every sailor bar they frequent. Who to believe??

 

You might want to chew on the fact that Huston was a long-term booster for the team previously known as BMWO. He isn't an obvious candidate to be raining on TO's parade.

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The problem is that Peter H. and a few others who would be taken as insiders, claim that there is seething discontent and mutinous mutterings in every sailor bar they frequent. Who to believe??

 

You might want to chew on the fact that Huston was a long-term booster for the team previously known as BMWO. He isn't an obvious candidate to be raining on TO's parade.

 

Be that as it may it is the black negativity that gets me. There is no model for this, but who ever heard of a complicated international event that wasn't dogged by rumour and scandal, you can always find dissenting voices. It's par for the course. What about a bit of credit for the things that have gone right and the set up they have put together so far.

It is my impression (from a long long way away) that there are quite a few in S.F. happy to jump on the band wagon, (like the former mayor), and take the jobs and promotional opportunities that have been provided so far. There is no surprise in that either, but from the tone of Peter's comments one would think that they would be scratching to find anyone willing put their name forward for what, by common knowledge in the cocktail lounges, will be a fiasco.

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Selling the AC is different than simply not sabotaging teams.

 

Come on, describing GD's remarks as sabotage is ridiculously hyperbolic. It seems that in the eyes of some here, any remark that isn't totally supportive of the present direction of AC34 is unacceptable negativity. Relentless feigned cheerfulness may be part of the American Way but thank God some of the rest of the world prefers something closer to honesty. Now be sure to have a nice day.

 

 

Lighten up. Knowing there would be responses like yours, I specifically said my criticism was meant to be light, not some damning of GD. It is one thing to be truthful and honest, but it does not require making a blanket comment that there could not possibly be a chance for these other teams, and that there are only going to be 3 legitimate teams, or whatever he said. A more reasonable statement would have been to simply, and honestly, say that teams that are behind the position of OR, ETNZ, AR, and CT are going to be a step or two or three behind. It will be a challenge for them. By saying what GD said, potential sponsors might be saying to these teams trying to get funding, "why should we give you a dime when Grant Dalton, with his incredible resume, says it will basically be pissing our money away?" See, there is some sabotage there.

 

Oh yeah, and thanks for trying to generalize Americans. Must be easy for someone from a third-rate, quaint, stick-up-the-ass, has-been little island nation.

 

Oops, did I just say that? Or, would it be reasonable to say that we all have pretty great diversity in our respective nations?

 

I hope you have a lovely day.

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Agreed completely.

 

But on OR and the over-used sycophant word tossed around, I have no problem admitting that I like what they do, and wish them well Defending.

 

As just a fan this whole AC34 process has been remarkably open so far and interesting to follow. Some of it, like the event paperwork in SF being required-public, may not have been their preference, but we have seen in almost real-time the evolution of the AC45, the willingness of several people from IM on down to be open and honest, and a pretty serious effort to keep us informed generally. There is an open mindedness that KL has written about too, that really is quite remarkable. I credit the overall vision for all that and it strikes me as unprecedented on several levels. Pretty great start.

 

The problem is that Peter H. and a few others who would be taken as insiders, claim that there is seething discontent and mutinous mutterings in every sailor bar they frequent. Added to this is the fact that because their blinkered yacht club buddies aren't up to speed on all things AC, it must be heading for disaster!

 

Who to believe??

 

Uh...the discontent I hear has nothing to do with being in a bar or around a yacht club.

 

It comes from Board level, and C suite executives who would very much like to be a part of AC 34, but who do not currently see the value proposition for their company. Same too for some tv entities around the planet.

 

I'm the last person to want to wish doom and unmitigated failure on GGYC, and their related professional hires, but sometimes you have to look the skipper in the eye and tell him that he is in fact sailing on a header and shooting a corner, and that it might be time to consider a tack, if not a crew change.

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