Multis back at the Olympics !!!

[Tornado-Cat]

Expected but great news !!!

 

http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/05/olympics-multis-are-back.html

[Xlot]

Trying not to show my age by deprecating mixed crews ... but doesn't this inevitably restrict the choice to an F16? Don't really see a winged 18': logistics, cost and damage potential would be insurmountable, IMHO.

[Tornado-Cat]

Trying not to show my age by deprecating mixed crews ... but doesn't this inevitably restrict the choice to an F16? Don't really see a winged 18': logistics, cost and damage potential would be insurmountable, IMHO.

 

No, Carolijn Brouwer is world class in Tornado with a mixed crew.

I hope they organize a competition bwtween F18 and F20 like they did about 15 years ago. My choice would go for a M20 with soft sails, something like the Marstrom or the Nacra 20 carbon. I think they should also open a place for the A cat.

[EaglesPDX]

Expected but great news !!!

 

http://catsailingnew...s-are-back.html

 

Whatever is the Laser version of a cat. Single handed, cheap, easy learning and use (storage, trailering, etc,) so that sailing clubs can use them to create school based sports so it becomes the entry point into sailing with the America's Cup being the ultimate goal.

[weightless]

Expected but great news !!!

 

http://catsailingnew...s-are-back.html

 

Whatever is the Laser version of a cat. Single handed, cheap, easy learning and use (storage, trailering, etc,) so that sailing clubs can use them to create school based sports so it becomes the entry point into sailing with the America's Cup being the ultimate goal.

 

Lasers are so cheap that not much worth sailing can compete on cost and they stack into an enviably small space. It's the move up from there to an advanced boat of any number of hulls that breaks the bank. Even a 470 is a very expensive proposition IME. I think a 49er fits into the "if you have a budget look elsewhere" category. But if you could foot the bills for either of those then an F16 might be an attractive alternative.

[eric e]

Expected but great news !!!

 

http://catsailingnew...s-are-back.html

 

Whatever is the Laser version of a cat. Single handed, cheap, easy learning and use (storage, trailering, etc,) so that sailing clubs can use them to create school based sports so it becomes the entry point into sailing with the America's Cup being the ultimate goal.

 

 

the laser is 1 hull, 1 mast, 1 boom, 1 pocket luff sail, 1 dagger and 1 rudder to carry 1 person

 

there IS no multi equivalent unless it is the hobie bravo

 

and watching those race would be like watching paint dry

 

the olympic multi will probably start at least twice as expensive as a laser and should probably have 3 sails

 

the f20 and f18 are too heavy for young mixed crews

 

so it should probably be a 1-design glass and alloy f16

 

the current f16 makers should be looking at their designs and formulating bids now

 

but

 

for 2016

 

probably only hobie have the infrastructure and dealer network to do it...

 

and horror

 

their best boat is probably their new plastic one with the bow holes

[EaglesPDX]

Expected but great news !!!

 

http://catsailingnew...s-are-back.html

 

Whatever is the Laser version of a cat. Single handed, cheap, easy learning and use (storage, trailering, etc,) so that sailing clubs can use them to create school based sports so it becomes the entry point into sailing with the America's Cup being the ultimate goal.

 

Lasers are so cheap that not much worth sailing can compete on cost and they stack into an enviably small space. It's the move up from there to an advanced boat of any number of hulls that breaks the bank. Even a 470 is a very expensive proposition IME. I think a 49er fits into the "if you have a budget look elsewhere" category. But if you could foot the bills for either of those then an F16 might be an attractive alternative.

 

Perhaps a worthy endeavor of AC34 would be the design of an Olympic cat that would be exciting to watch, cheap to build and operate and offer a single handed entry point for young people who want to give sailing a try after seeing the top end AC72 in spectacular racing in SF. The design/build of the AC45 but aim at creating a base and path for young people to get into sailing.

[fakawot]

Expected but great news !!!

 

http://catsailingnew...s-are-back.html

 

Whatever is the Laser version of a cat. Single handed, cheap, easy learning and use (storage, trailering, etc,) so that sailing clubs can use them to create school based sports so it becomes the entry point into sailing with the America's Cup being the ultimate goal.

 

Lasers are so cheap that not much worth sailing can compete on cost and they stack into an enviably small space. It's the move up from there to an advanced boat of any number of hulls that breaks the bank. Even a 470 is a very expensive proposition IME. I think a 49er fits into the "if you have a budget look elsewhere" category. But if you could foot the bills for either of those then an F16 might be an attractive alternative.

 

Perhaps a worthy endeavor of AC34 would be the design of an Olympic cat that would be exciting to watch, cheap to build and operate and offer a single handed entry point for young people who want to give sailing a try after seeing the top end AC72 in spectacular racing in SF. The design/build of the AC45 but aim at creating a base and path for young people to get into sailing.

 

 

 

 

Well isn't part of the issue of ex-Tornados in the Olympics, that equipment-wise it leans toward the narrow end of the funnel of a highend class as opposed to the Laser concept? I don't see anything in the market that closes the gap, and find this move back to a multihull event highly premature. Would have been better to let it sleep for a few years, and let worldwide interest continue to evolve before re-establishing the class. Starting from the top down dooms this endeavor to failure.

 

 

 

[EaglesPDX]

I don't see anything in the market that closes the gap, and find this move back to a multihull event highly premature. Would have been better to let it sleep for a few years, and let worldwide interest continue to evolve before re-establishing the class. Starting from the top down dooms this endeavor to failure.

 

The cycle of change is too fast for the percolation method. The multis are no doubt back in the Olympics because of AC33 and AC34, the realization that the top end of the sport of sailing is always going to be multihulls if speed is the criteria. The Olympic motto is faster, higher, stronger and that is a multihull vs. monohull.

 

So a key product of AC34 should be the design build of an Olympic multihull that is the entry point for young sailors, offering an Olympic path from grade school to college age and then the penultimate America's Cup on the biggest fastest racing sail boats with the best sailors in the world.

 

The AC45 idea but scaled down to building the foundation of the pyramid.

[Tornado-Cat]

This is where the Olympics should lead.

 

I would really like to compare this Mod 70 against the AC72:

 

• A

Gitana 11 bat le record du Tour de Belle-Ile

 

[eric e]

The AC45 idea but scaled down to building the foundation of the pyramid.

 

 

already built in 12feet

 

certainly better than a bravo

 

but i don't see that olympic boat design has anything to do with the america's cup

 

unless you want core to start banging these things out

 

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Yachts-sail-boats/Small-sailboats/auction-364920756.htm

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

The Tornado and F18 is far from too big, heavy, loads to high for Olympic mixed or all female crew. Both classes both have mixed and all women crews currently racing at both club and International level. There are a lot of female sailors out there who would handle the boats comfortably, not only currently sailing multies but from other classes such such as 470s, Lasters, RSX etc.

 

Personaly, I would like to see a OD boat such as a Viper as the next Olympic boat but would be just as happy with the Tornado.

[Te Kooti]

Perhaps a worthy endeavor of AC34 would be the design of an Olympic cat that would be exciting to watch

 

Would be a good flow-on job for Core.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

 

[Tornado-Cat]

 

Sorry T_A but the Cirrus is already outdated. The best F18 now is the Cirrus R.

I think we should go with an F20.

Best now are, in order:

1. M20

2. F20 Nacra

3. Tornado

 

But I think they should do a comparison and races as they did a few years ago...

[Tornado_ALIVE]

???? Never mentioned anything about the Cirrus. Personaly I would not like to see an F18 or F16 class chosen. I believe the Viper (pictured above) is far enough outside the F16 rules and can stand alone as a OD class enough to warrent it for Olypmic selection. Boat has simular performance to an F18 however the loads are a little lighter, boat is lighter, 125kg for sloop, several thousand cheaper. it's ideal crew weight is a little lighter also, somewhere between 120kg to 140kg combined. More suited to mix or all female crew than the F18 is. The Tornado also suited to lower crew weights than the F18. About 140kg being ideal.

 

I believe the Viper would be an ideal choice for mixed crew for 2016. As more females become involved at an Olympic level, then this could warrent male and female classes for 2020 with the Viper for women and the Tornado (M20 or Narca's new F20) for male.

[Tornado-Cat]

???? Never mentioned anything about the Cirrus. Personaly I would not like to see an F18 or F16 class chosen. I believe the Viper (pictured above) is far enough outside the F16 rules and can stand alone as a OD class enough to warrent it for Olypmic selection. Boat has simular performance to an F18 however the loads are a little lighter, boat is lighter, 125kg for sloop, several thousand cheaper. it's ideal crew weight is a little lighter also, somewhere between 120kg to 140kg combined. More suited to mix or all female crew than the F18 is. The Tornado also suited to lower crew weights than the F18. About 140kg being ideal.

 

I believe the Viper would be an ideal choice for mixed crew for 2016. As more females become involved at an Olympic level, then this could warrent male and female classes for 2020 with the Viper for women and the Tornado (M20 or Narca's new F20) for male.

 

Agree with you for 2 cats, they represent 80% of sailing on beaches.

 

The Tornado is fit for many crews as history showed. Carolijn Brouwer is a good proof that T is good for mixed crews at international levels.

 

Cirrus R is a new French design from the Boulogne brothers that won the Eurocat last weekend with Mischa Heemskerk in front of Bundy and a few others.

[eric e]

F16 videos from the f16 page

http://www.formula16.net/content/view/38/55/lang,en/

 

how about home built marine ply boats/ it's how thew tornado started and might help address cost issues for the malawi team

 

http://www.formula16.net/content/view/40/57/lang,en/

[dogwatch]

(Viper) ideal crew weight is a little lighter also, somewhere between 120kg to 140kg combined.

 

How does that ideal divide out between crew and helm? Would be be likely to see light (presumably female) helms and heavier (male) crews predominating, same as you would with mixed single-trapeze dinghies?

[dogwatch]

The Tornado is fit for many crews as history showed. Carolijn Brouwer is a good proof that T is good for mixed crews at international levels.

 

Yes. I used to work with a woman who crewed Tornados. She was bigger and stronger than most women but by no means off the scale in that respect, just athletic in build.

[hump101]

The Tornado is fit for many crews as history showed. Carolijn Brouwer is a good proof that T is good for mixed crews at international levels.

 

Yes. I used to work with a woman who crewed Tornados. She was bigger and stronger than most women but by no means off the scale in that respect, just athletic in build.

 

Isn't the current Tornado world champ a mixed crew (Nahid Gaebler)?

 

Having twin trapeze resolves the helm/crew weight distribution issues, and is in any case more fun. Bring back the Tornado, the class is organised for Olympic competition, and won't ever become the "everyman" class, so it is no loss. Don't ruin another class by filling it with Olympic wannabees.

[Icedtea]

The Tornado is fit for many crews as history showed. Carolijn Brouwer is a good proof that T is good for mixed crews at international levels.

 

Yes. I used to work with a woman who crewed Tornados. She was bigger and stronger than most women but by no means off the scale in that respect, just athletic in build.

 

Isn't the current Tornado world champ a mixed crew (Nahid Gaebler)?

 

Having twin trapeze resolves the helm/crew weight distribution issues, and is in any case more fun. Bring back the Tornado, the class is organised for Olympic competition, and won't ever become the "everyman" class, so it is no loss. Don't ruin another class by filling it with Olympic wannabees.

 

Agreed,

And it's not as if Tornados or boring now is it

[Xlot]

No offense guys - loved the Tornado, but multihullers cannot fall into the Star syndrome: if it were a big, expensive cat, it would have to be the F20C.

 

F18s are a wonderful grassroots story - and they are wise enough to want to steer clear of Olympic 'contamination'.

 

An F16 variant: don't be so sure about the Viper, Bimare just brought out an unbelievably cheap one with carbon mast under €10k, wonder if it's just coincidence ..

[macca]

I think for a Mixed event you need to have an 18ft boat, a 16fter is perfect for an all womens team but you will have mini men (470 sized) if you pick a 16fter for the Olympics.

 

I agree that F18 is not the right way to go, and the 20fters are just too big and we dont want to see massive women sailing cats, we need sexy ones!!

 

I am keenly waiting for the specs to be published by the equipment committee, and I hope they are realistic about the details so we dont have a laser equivalent as a catamaran

[Xlot]

probably only hobie have the infrastructure and dealer network to do it...

 

and horror

 

their best boat is probably their new plastic one with the bow holes

 

Horror indeed, but had the same thought ..

 

How much does the Tatoo weigh, cost and can it take two trapezes?

 

Still, they'd have to make a daggerboard variant.

[devon]

I think for a Mixed event you need to have an 18ft boat, a 16fter is perfect for an all womens team but you will have mini men (470 sized) if you pick a 16fter for the Olympics.

 

I agree that F18 is not the right way to go, and the 20fters are just too big and we dont want to see massive women sailing cats, we need sexy ones!!

 

I am keenly waiting for the specs to be published by the equipment committee, and I hope they are realistic about the details so we dont have a laser equivalent as a catamaran

 

 

Yes I agree the 20 footers are too big etc as it states in the article it will definately be under 20 ft, the F18 would do the job but once it becomes olympic then the development will halt this class, the same goes for the F16 class, as we have many years gaps in the olympics and re selection is so slow, you will then see a much faster 18 and 16 foot design being sailed by non olympic sailers, I would sugest a F17 2 up design, it will not affect development of the F16 or F18 classes http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread.php?4072-Inter-17-Sq-top

[Tornado-Cat]

No offense guys - loved the Tornado, but multihullers cannot fall into the Star syndrome: if it were a big, expensive cat, it would have to be the F20C.

 

F18s are a wonderful grassroots story - and they are wise enough to want to steer clear of Olympic 'contamination'.

 

An F16 variant: don't be so sure about the Viper, Bimare just brought out an unbelievably cheap one with carbon mast under €10k, wonder if it's just coincidence ..

 

ISAF should organize a competition, as it was done for the Tornado at the beginning. The boat was so good it was much, much ahead of the others and had a reign of nearly half a century.

 

We could compare the F20C, the M20, hopefully some new designs by MM or VPLP.

In F18 I would see the Cirrus C.

 

If the Tornado with C board was doing as well or better than those above it would be a hell of a solution.

[K38BOB]

Whatabout WETA? (not an owner or commercial interest- I am a fan)

 

if bigger than F18 or an AC 16-22 or restore Tornado

[Xlot]

On ZG, interview with the president of the Italian Sailing Federation, just back from St. Petersburg. He says it'll be "either the Tornado or the Hobie 18, to be decided in November" ..

[Tornado-Cat]

On ZG, interview with the president of the Italian Sailing Federation, just back from St. Petersburg. He says it'll be "either the Tornado or the Hobie 18, to be decided in November" ..

 

Don't tell me it is the old Hobie 18, it's absolute shit.

 

He may speak of the Hobie F18 which is good but completely outdated now

[k2mav]

On ZG, interview with the president of the Italian Sailing Federation, just back from St. Petersburg. He says it'll be "either the Tornado or the Hobie 18, to be decided in November" ..

 

Don't tell me it is the old Hobie 18, it's absolute shit.

 

He may speak of the Hobie F18 which is good but completely outdated now

 

All Cats looks the same for the NAs presidents, they know about cats as I know about Stars...

100% sure he is referring to the Hobie Tiger (18 feet- F18)

 

The Trial will decide it, add the Viper to that list.

[overlay]

On ZG, interview with the president of the Italian Sailing Federation, just back from St. Petersburg. He says it'll be "either the Tornado or the Hobie 18, to be decided in November" ..

 

Don't tell me it is the old Hobie 18, it's absolute shit.

 

He may speak of the Hobie F18 which is good but completely outdated now

 

 

Tornado Cat you appear to be missing the point entirely. So as to have a competition open to as many people as possible why not select a cat that actually has a large following already rather than

selecting some elitist expensive POS like the Tornado, or some yet to be developed formula XX. For years now the Cost and Size of the Tornado has excluded many fantastic sailors from participating. Maybe this is what you want. What chance would you have if many more sailors could afford to become involved

 

Of course whatever they select is not going to please everyone but the H16 could be a good place to start. Its meant to be a competition between people not their bank accounts.,

[Tornado-Cat]

On ZG, interview with the president of the Italian Sailing Federation, just back from St. Petersburg. He says it'll be "either the Tornado or the Hobie 18, to be decided in November" ..

 

Don't tell me it is the old Hobie 18, it's absolute shit.

 

He may speak of the Hobie F18 which is good but completely outdated now

 

All Cats looks the same for the NAs presidents, they know about cats as I know about Stars...

100% sure he is referring to the Hobie Tiger (18 feet- F18)

 

The Trial will decide it, add the Viper to that list.

 

I guess it would be the Tiger. This boat is a copy of the Alado, Hobie bought the design to Jacques Valer from South Brittany, Fr. It would be nice for him.

It could also be the Wildcat which is the latest design.

The Tiger is outdated and the Wildcat (even with Bundy) did not do as good as the CirrusR at the Eurocat.

Have you seen somewhere they would do a trial? it would be logic and very interesting!!!

[Xlot]

Pretext for a war story: in 1976(?) we took part in the IYRU competition for an intermediate catamaran. Fairly specific req'mts and dimensions, European pre-trials in Medemblik with a dozen candidates - remember a nice boat by SailCraft. Then, before the final in Long Beach, the Dart appeared: longer than the stipulated 5m , no centerboards unlike the others so worse performance, one-piece mast so not car-toppable. You know how it ended, of course the Dart is valid, but clearly real decisions are taken behind closed doors.

[Tornado-Cat]

Pretext for a war story: in 1976(?) we took part in the IYRU competition for an intermediate catamaran. Fairly specific req'mts and dimensions, European pre-trials in Medemblik with a dozen candidates - remember a nice boat by SailCraft. Then, before the final in Long Beach, the Dart appeared: longer than the stipulated 5m , no centerboards unlike the others so worse performance, one-piece mast so not car-toppable. You know how it ended, of course the Dart is valid, but clearly real decisions are taken behind closed doors.

 

Yes, like for the abolition of the Tornado for the Olympics...

 

However the Dart was a dream when young, no center board, revolutionary hulls, possiblity of having one or twe crews, easy to assemble. Beautiful boat at the time.

 

Rodney March designed his best cats with the Tornado and the Darts, both have about half a century life, incredible for a modern boat.

[gavparker]

On ZG, interview with the president of the Italian Sailing Federation, just back from St. Petersburg. He says it'll be "either the Tornado or the Hobie 18, to be decided in November" ..

 

Don't tell me it is the old Hobie 18, it's absolute shit.

 

He may speak of the Hobie F18 which is good but completely outdated now

 

All Cats looks the same for the NAs presidents, they know about cats as I know about Stars...

100% sure he is referring to the Hobie Tiger (18 feet- F18)

 

The Trial will decide it, add the Viper to that list.

 

I guess it would be the Tiger. This boat is a copy of the Alado, Hobie bought the design to Jacques Valer from South Brittany, Fr. It would be nice for him.

It could also be the Wildcat which is the latest design.

The Tiger is outdated and the Wildcat (even with Bundy) did not do as good as the CirrusR at the Eurocat.

Have you seen somewhere they would do a trial? it would be logic and very interesting!!!

 

 

Bundy was on AHPC C2 at Eurocat and if it wasn't for his 2 x BFD's probably would have won the event. At the end of the day it's the nut on the tiller that is winning F18 races at all levels from international to club racing - this why the class is doing so well. You get to pick your favourite boat and it's still up to you as to how well you do. You aren't compelled to get a specific boat because it's so much better than any other one in the class - an issue that would surely arise should one of the modern F18 designs be selected as the next olympic class.

 

Here's some ideas on what it could be:

 

Tornado: Proven track record in Olympics. Bit big for mixed crews worldwide (yes, the current world champs are mixed but this is the exception rather than the norm). This is the turnkey solution.

 

Hobie Tiger: Proven manufacturer. Can be sailed with mixed crews. Boat sits within F18 class rules but also has "the blue sticker". So, if someone decides to campaign for the olympics they have the best of both worlds. One design racing for Olympic qualifying spots and an incredibly strong F18 fleet to participate and train in. F18 association don't get their nose out of joint because it's a dated design that top F18 sailors won't go back to thereby offering protection to the ideals of the class, while still promoting it.

 

16 foot high performance: Probably the Viper as it's a great boat with a track record and production capacity. It's size will mean the sailors will have to be lighter.

 

H16: Great as the "Laser" of the multihull world. Global participation. But, it's a H16.

Quick!! To the equipment trials!!!!!

[macca]

On ZG, interview with the president of the Italian Sailing Federation, just back from St. Petersburg. He says it'll be "either the Tornado or the Hobie 18, to be decided in November" ..

 

Don't tell me it is the old Hobie 18, it's absolute shit.

 

He may speak of the Hobie F18 which is good but completely outdated now

 

All Cats looks the same for the NAs presidents, they know about cats as I know about Stars...

100% sure he is referring to the Hobie Tiger (18 feet- F18)

 

The Trial will decide it, add the Viper to that list.

 

I guess it would be the Tiger. This boat is a copy of the Alado, Hobie bought the design to Jacques Valer from South Brittany, Fr. It would be nice for him.

It could also be the Wildcat which is the latest design.

The Tiger is outdated and the Wildcat (even with Bundy) did not do as good as the CirrusR at the Eurocat.

Have you seen somewhere they would do a trial? it would be logic and very interesting!!!

 

 

Bundy was on AHPC C2 at Eurocat and if it wasn't for his 2 x BFD's probably would have won the event. At the end of the day it's the nut on the tiller that is winning F18 races at all levels from international to club racing - this why the class is doing so well. You get to pick your favourite boat and it's still up to you as to how well you do. You aren't compelled to get a specific boat because it's so much better than any other one in the class - an issue that would surely arise should one of the modern F18 designs be selected as the next olympic class.

 

Here's some ideas on what it could be:

 

Tornado: Proven track record in Olympics. Bit big for mixed crews worldwide (yes, the current world champs are mixed but this is the exception rather than the norm). This is the turnkey solution.

 

Hobie Tiger: Proven manufacturer. Can be sailed with mixed crews. Boat sits within F18 class rules but also has "the blue sticker". So, if someone decides to campaign for the olympics they have the best of both worlds. One design racing for Olympic qualifying spots and an incredibly strong F18 fleet to participate and train in. F18 association don't get their nose out of joint because it's a dated design that top F18 sailors won't go back to thereby offering protection to the ideals of the class, while still promoting it.

 

16 foot high performance: Probably the Viper as it's a great boat with a track record and production capacity. It's size will mean the sailors will have to be lighter.

 

H16: Great as the "Laser" of the multihull world. Global participation. But, it's a H16.

Quick!! To the equipment trials!!!!!

 

All f18's have the blue sticker now... And for sure an existing F18 as an Olympic boat is not a good solution.

 

The boat is the right size though, and a 20ft boat can work too, but for sure a 16ft is waay too small.

 

Check the crew weights from China games, they were all around 140kg and that was on a 20ft boat with 2 men, what will happen if we go smaller than 18ft??? midgets racing in the Olympics??

[eric e]

the f18 hobie tiger would appear to be most realistic cat for a new mixed class

 

2nd hand boats cost about the same as a new laser...

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

The boat is the right size though, and a 20ft boat can work too, but for sure a 16ft is waay too small.

 

Check the crew weights from China games, they were all around 140kg and that was on a 20ft boat with 2 men, what will happen if we go smaller than 18ft??? midgets racing in the Olympics??

 

That was 140 for 2 x men in China. How about setting a min crew weight for the class. Mixed crew total of 130kg min crew weight for example..... 135, 140kg????

 

Tiger would be bad for the F18 class..... unless it was excluded from F18 events. Last I saw, Tigers were still doing OK at F18 events too.

 

As for the T, the campaign costs of Olympic classes keep people away. Hopefulls can always pick up a good 2nd hand T to campaign if they wish as they say competitive for a very long time unlike other Olympic classes / other Catamarans. The Tornado is actually one of the more affordable Olympic boats to campaign.

 

The T is also liker than the F18, main sheet loads less however kite loads a little more however nothing a Female Olympic athlete can not handle with ease. Hell, even at club level you will find plenty of female crew able to handle..... give them some credit.

[Hobie Anarchy]

All f18's have the blue sticker now.

But the Tiger has it's own blue sticker as a one-design class.

[dogwatch]

All f18's have the blue sticker now...

 

Please educate this ignorant keelboat sailor as to what a blue sticker signifies?

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Something the Tornado, 49er, RSX never had when they were selected.

[macca]

All f18's have the blue sticker now.

But the Tiger has it's own blue sticker as a one-design class.

 

 

So does the Infusion, and neither of them are a good choice as Olympic boats..

 

The Blue Sticker is the ISAF recognised class sticker, all F18's have them and it doubles up for the Tiger and Infusion who are also international classes in their own right.

[dogwatch]

Something the Tornado, 49er, RSX never had when they were selected.

 

Very helpful. OK, guess we are talking about http://www.international14.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=21

[macca]

The boat is the right size though, and a 20ft boat can work too, but for sure a 16ft is waay too small.

 

Check the crew weights from China games, they were all around 140kg and that was on a 20ft boat with 2 men, what will happen if we go smaller than 18ft??? midgets racing in the Olympics??

 

That was 140 for 2 x men in China. How about setting a min crew weight for the class. Mixed crew total of 130kg min crew weight for example..... 135, 140kg????

 

 

A min crew weight is not something the IOC wants unless its combat sports, like boxing, Judo etc.

 

There is no Min weight on the 49er, Laser, 470 etc and it works fine because the boats are suited to the event. This should be the primary concern of all sailors: make sure we get the right equipment for the Olympics. and that does not always align with the best equipment for club sailing etc.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Or perhaps.......

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

The boat is the right size though, and a 20ft boat can work too, but for sure a 16ft is waay too small.

 

Check the crew weights from China games, they were all around 140kg and that was on a 20ft boat with 2 men, what will happen if we go smaller than 18ft??? midgets racing in the Olympics??

 

That was 140 for 2 x men in China. How about setting a min crew weight for the class. Mixed crew total of 130kg min crew weight for example..... 135, 140kg????

 

 

A min crew weight is not something the IOC wants unless its combat sports, like boxing, Judo etc.

 

There is no Min weight on the 49er, Laser, 470 etc and it works fine because the boats are suited to the event. This should be the primary concern of all sailors: make sure we get the right equipment for the Olympics. and that does not always align with the best equipment for club sailing etc.

 

fair enough. So if all male crews were arond 140kg in China, would you expect 130kg for a mixed crew? Sounds about right for a Viper.

[macca]

The boat is the right size though, and a 20ft boat can work too, but for sure a 16ft is waay too small.

 

Check the crew weights from China games, they were all around 140kg and that was on a 20ft boat with 2 men, what will happen if we go smaller than 18ft??? midgets racing in the Olympics??

 

That was 140 for 2 x men in China. How about setting a min crew weight for the class. Mixed crew total of 130kg min crew weight for example..... 135, 140kg????

 

 

A min crew weight is not something the IOC wants unless its combat sports, like boxing, Judo etc.

 

There is no Min weight on the 49er, Laser, 470 etc and it works fine because the boats are suited to the event. This should be the primary concern of all sailors: make sure we get the right equipment for the Olympics. and that does not always align with the best equipment for club sailing etc.

 

fair enough. So if all male crews were arond 140kg in China, would you expect 130kg for a mixed crew? Sounds about right for a Viper.

 

That was 140kg on a 20ft boat, so it will be a lot less on a smaller boat.

 

Plus you must consider the historical data that shows the crew weights dropping when boats gain Olympic status, 49er, Laser and Radial all saw drops of around 7kg per athlete as optimum weights from the time they became Olympic. This is simply due to the high level sailors ability to sail the boats better than normal club sailors.

 

So if 130kg is a good weight for now, it will drop with Olympic level teams onboard. This is not a guess, its fact.

[Xlot]

Plus, I don't recall Rio > Angra? as particularly windy. Maybe different story if it were Búzios, also it'll be winter ..

[maritimesailski]

???? Never mentioned anything about the Cirrus. Personaly I would not like to see an F18 or F16 class chosen. I believe the Viper (pictured above) is far enough outside the F16 rules and can stand alone as a OD class enough to warrent it for Olypmic selection. Boat has simular performance to an F18 however the loads are a little lighter, boat is lighter, 125kg for sloop, several thousand cheaper. it's ideal crew weight is a little lighter also, somewhere between 120kg to 140kg combined. More suited to mix or all female crew than the F18 is. The Tornado also suited to lower crew weights than the F18. About 140kg being ideal.

 

I believe the Viper would be an ideal choice for mixed crew for 2016. As more females become involved at an Olympic level, then this could warrent male and female classes for 2020 with the Viper for women and the Tornado (M20 or Narca's new F20) for male.

 

 

I completely agree with this post, this is exactly how the Olympic cat should shape up. With a mixed multi it is true we have mixed teams in F18 as well as Tornado, but how many of them have the gir as the crew (I honestly don't know and just suspect not manny)? I would hate to have a boat chosen that predicates that the men must be the crew and the women the drivers due to loads, a smaller (and as fast in the right conditions) boat such as the Viper would allow men and women to sail in either role.

 

Also, a nice thing about a viper is AHPC has a club version that has a smaller sail plan that could help with being the junior development version of the boat. Similar to how Lasers have the 4.7 and radial rigs, a club sail plan (or even sailing one up) of the Viper has a nice development path that keeps costs down. One boat can be used from junior age through campaign just by upgrading the sail plan (something you would do anyway). You can't even keep a laser hull for many years, with a Viper you could race the same hulls for a decade if taken care of.

 

I'm for a Viper, but I must admit, its because I've sailed one and I love them, as well as for the reasons above (I've been heavily involved with Junior sailing for over a decade).

 

Cheers,

-P

[macca]

90% of the Olympic level teams will see the male crewing simply because they are stronger, it makes no difference what the loads are.. the important thing is strength to weight ratio and where to best utilise it. A man will be able to hoist a kite faster, drop it quicker, pump the rig harder, sheet more aggressively and do it longer too.... So you will end up with men as crews no matter what boat you end up with. The only question is if those men will be allowed to eat 3 meals a day or not! On a 16fter the men will weigh around 65kg... not so healthy unless you are short.

 

Same if the 470 went mixed, the men would be crewing for sure.

 

The 16ft boats are unreal for the youth, really perfect. But as I said before, they are not Olympic level boats. The Olympics is about athletes and if we had 16ft boats we will have super skinny sailors (trying to get down to a youth team weight all the time)

[catsailordude]

If it is to be a truly mixed event, then the helm and crew should switch positions between each race. In mixed doubles tennis the male and female both have to serve.

 

While this is not representative of the sport in its current form, it would make for an interesting event.

[maritimesailski]

90% of the Olympic level teams will see the male crewing simply because they are stronger, it makes no difference what the loads are.. the important thing is strength to weight ratio and where to best utilise it. A man will be able to hoist a kite faster, drop it quicker, pump the rig harder, sheet more aggressively and do it longer too.... So you will end up with men as crews no matter what boat you end up with. The only question is if those men will be allowed to eat 3 meals a day or not! On a 16fter the men will weigh around 65kg... not so healthy unless you are short.

 

Same if the 470 went mixed, the men would be crewing for sure.

 

The 16ft boats are unreal for the youth, really perfect. But as I said before, they are not Olympic level boats. The Olympics is about athletes and if we had 16ft boats we will have super skinny sailors (trying to get down to a youth team weight all the time)

Macca, I get your point, it would be nice though for the boat design to not predicate that a guy MUST be the crew, as I'm sure there are girls out there who would disagree with your above comments.

 

As for weight, I would think an F16, say the Viper for arguments sake, caps out at about 330 lbs combined... just off the top of my head, maybe some readers have a better feel for that number in practice, so 150kg. That is 75 kg per person.... I think a wide range of people can fit into that range.... I know, depending on venue chosen people will bulk up or down for racing, so I actually think the weight thing is a bit of a misnomer for arguing one boat versus another. Everyone starved themselves for China and look what happened there!

 

I think it should really come down to what boat:

- Is modern and high speed

- Is affordable and easily purchased in 90% of competing countries

- Allows women and men to take either role on the boat equally

- Has a nice development class below it for junior Olympians to train in

- Minimize costs for campaigning (easily available for charter around the world, hulls / rigging last at least one olympic cycle, etc etc)

- Does NOT disrupt the current state of the class (i.e is a net positive to the class in which the boat comes from, not a negative)

 

I really hope they don't go with an F18, but that the F18 can find a role as a development boat for the Olympic class (perhaps a 20 footer would be a smart choice). The F16 has a strong following now, and can fit well in current F18 regattas as to have "instantly" a circuit to race in (this is a North American bias, I really have no idea what it the classes are like outside of NA, I assume similar but with larger fleets ;-). My worry if the Tiger was chosen that the F18 class would regress as their would be more used Tigers coming on the market after Olympic sailors were done with them, hurting the other manufacturers, but perhaps not.

 

Anyway, just my two cents, should be an interesting process.

[Tornado807]

Re. Initial Cost of boat...once again we see people saying a platform must be cheap. If the cost of the boat is a big enough impediment to someone's Olympic dream, then they either need a sponsor or find another dream. When teams are spending over $100k per year in the lead-up to the games, boat costs are insignificant.

One of the big advantages of the T...an epoxy boat, is that is has an extended competitive lifespan...last games had an 8+ year old boat. Thus the need to turn over boats every year or two at the top level is not necessary. And the the re-sale price of a campaigned boat is higher, allowing teams to re-coup a good portion of their invested monies.

 

As has been stated earlier...the T was one of the lower cost Olympic boats to campaign...efficiently shipping multiple boats per container was a part of that.

[overlay]

The 16ft boats are unreal for the youth, really perfect. But as I said before, they are not Olympic level boats. The Olympics is about athletes and if we had 16ft boats we will have super skinny sailors (trying to get down to a youth team weight all the time)

 

To even things up with whatever boat they choose select a realistic min crew weight and add correctors. No choice will be perfect.

[Tornado-Cat]

90% of the Olympic level teams will see the male crewing simply because they are stronger, it makes no difference what the loads are.. the important thing is strength to weight ratio and where to best utilise it. A man will be able to hoist a kite faster, drop it quicker, pump the rig harder, sheet more aggressively and do it longer too.... So you will end up with men as crews no matter what boat you end up with. The only question is if those men will be allowed to eat 3 meals a day or not! On a 16fter the men will weigh around 65kg... not so healthy unless you are short.

 

Same if the 470 went mixed, the men would be crewing for sure.

 

The 16ft boats are unreal for the youth, really perfect. But as I said before, they are not Olympic level boats. The Olympics is about athletes and if we had 16ft boats we will have super skinny sailors (trying to get down to a youth team weight all the time)

 

+1

[Tornado807]

The 16ft boats are unreal for the youth, really perfect. But as I said before, they are not Olympic level boats. The Olympics is about athletes and if we had 16ft boats we will have super skinny sailors (trying to get down to a youth team weight all the time)

 

To even things up with whatever boat they choose select a realistic min crew weight and add correctors. No choice will be perfect.

 

Tornado class has no minimum crew weight. This results in a good mix of body types in the fleet. Teams can vary in overall weight from ligthweights to heavy's with performance varying minimally under differing conditions. Mitch Booth & team were usually at the top in weight, and had top line results. The lightest teams did not necessarily clean up in light conditions (Class rule of a 6kt minimum wind strength requirement might help hear).

[gavparker]

Over easter I was at a regatta where our C2 was against a Viper that had the women's H16 world champs on it - their combined weight is probably 100-110kg's. They were super quick in the light stuff, worrying us all around the course but particularly downwind where their low weight allowed the apparent wind to develop quickly and they could drive much quicker than anyone else. I love the Viper, it's an awesome boat but if it goes Olympic I've got no doubt the girls will have to skipper and the guys will have to weigh under 70kg's and crew. A 45kg girl just isn't going to have the strength to manage the front and if she's heavier then the guy will need to be even lighter than 70kg - weight will be king.

 

If the Tiger was made olympic I can't see it affecting the F18 fleet. I know I wouldn't sell my C2 to go back to it so it would only be aspiring olympic sailors and they'd probably enjoy the competition in an F18 fleet with a technically slower boat. As an ISAF one design class (the blue sticker...) they also get international one design racing as well - so effectively two for the price of one. Let's say a dedicated boat is created for the Olympics - 17.5' so ineligible for F18 fleet racing. If you're an olympic sailor I reckon you'll end up with two boats anyway - your olympic boat and an F18 so you can practice at the worlds and other major events every year. F18 fleet racing at the international level is too valuable for an olympic sailor to miss, look at how many AC sailors are on F18's and A-Classes. If it was a Tiger then they only need one boat, not two and it won't impact the F18 fleet the same way an Infusion, C2, Wildcat etc would.

 

The quandry around all of this is that the current Tornado world champions are mixed....with the female crewing...so we're all potentially full of shit.

[Tornado-Cat]

 

Bundy was on AHPC C2 at Eurocat and if it wasn't for his 2 x BFD's probably would have won the event. At the end of the day it's the nut on the tiller that is winning F18 races at all levels from international to club racing - this why the class is doing so well. You get to pick your favourite boat and it's still up to you as to how well you do. You aren't compelled to get a specific boat because it's so much better than any other one in the class - an issue that would surely arise should one of the modern F18 designs be selected as the next olympic class.

 

Here's some ideas on what it could be:

 

Tornado: Proven track record in Olympics. Bit big for mixed crews worldwide (yes, the current world champs are mixed but this is the exception rather than the norm). This is the turnkey solution.

 

Hobie Tiger: Proven manufacturer. Can be sailed with mixed crews. Boat sits within F18 class rules but also has "the blue sticker". So, if someone decides to campaign for the olympics they have the best of both worlds. One design racing for Olympic qualifying spots and an incredibly strong F18 fleet to participate and train in. F18 association don't get their nose out of joint because it's a dated design that top F18 sailors won't go back to thereby offering protection to the ideals of the class, while still promoting it.

 

16 foot high performance: Probably the Viper as it's a great boat with a track record and production capacity. It's size will mean the sailors will have to be lighter.

 

H16: Great as the "Laser" of the multihull world. Global participation. But, it's a H16.

Quick!! To the equipment trials!!!!!

 

Right, Bundy was at the Eurocat with a wildcat in 2009 ( I don't know in 2010) and did not do well.

I do not think the APSC C2 will do very well if we look at the hulls. Bundy will be the main reason of the results.

16 is for kids

18 is easy to transport but too small

We need a 20 ft easy to assemble and fast

They have to make an equipement trial but not during a few days like the last time (the M 20 broke a center board and could not compete), but during a month with different conditions.

[samc99us]

Doubt the trial will be more than a week, the financial resources to keep crews and boats lined up ready to race for a month are not available unless someone has $1,000,000 to pony over for such an event.

 

The F18 class has proven that its the driver, not necessarily the boat that matters. Mischa won the 2010 F18 Canadian Nationals on a highly modified Tiger. That being said, the F18's on the market right now don't have the build quality to support an Olympic campaign, none are built to the same standards as the Marstrom Tornado which is inexpensive to campaign because of the high build quality.

 

If I were to pick a boat, it would be the F20c as it has a full production and dealer network setup, and would also be an ideal boat for distance racing. I think the typical female olympic athlete could handle the sheet loads fine, they are similar to an F18 as the F20c has a very refined sail plan. A trial is definitely needed though, some of the latest M&M designs and Marstrom designs may make more sense. What I would hate to see is a situation like that of the Tornado where the boat is only purchased to race in the Olympics and local fleets are non-existent (rules out a Marstrom boat almost immediately)

[gavparker]

Unless there's a completely new, untried design (AC18 hard wing that's being talked about) the sailors are going to know a lot about the current manufactured boats as they will probably have sailed them so evaluation wouldn't need to be long.

 

The comments about the workmanship of the T over other boats is very important - I imagine if something like the Tiger or Viper got up it would have a 12-18 month life with olympic campaigners. We've got 3 of the best H16 sailors in the world at our yacht club (Gav Colby, Darren Smith and Cam Owen) and they won't keep a boat more than two seasons and have at least two sets of sails (club and regatta). Meanwhile Brett Burvill who is a world class T sailor is using his same hulls from maybe 6 years ago and still isn't looking at updating.

 

It's a hard decision - The T's an old hull design and should be updated for Olympic sailing however all that will achieve is grandfathering the class and creating another Marstrom built class that is isolated from the rest of the cat sailing community.

[k2mav]

Right, Bundy was at the Eurocat with a wildcat in 2009 ( I don't know in 2010) and did not do well.

I do not think the APSC C2 will do very well if we look at the hulls. Bundy will be the main reason of the results.

16 is for kids

18 is easy to transport but too small

We need a 20 ft easy to assemble and fast

They have to make an equipement trial but not during a few days like the last time (the M 20 broke a center board and could not compete), but during a month with different conditions.

 

TC, you are not that well informed on the Formula 18. The AHPC C2 is a rocket and 1st quality built, designed with all the experience they had on the Capricorn and th Viper, both top performers.

The Cirrus R is not the latest design on the F18, is the Sail Innovation 'Phantom' (although the project with curved boards and other changes aims directly to the Olympic Trials ) designed by Fischer with the SI Team that includes the current World Champs, Backes and Jarlegan.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

I would imagine the ideal crew weight for the following boats would be

Tornado – 140kg (lighter crew for its length due to the extra beam)

Tiger – 140 to 145kg

Viper – 130kg

With 130kg, I would imagine a 70kg Man and 60kg woman.

 

The Tornado, F18, A Class have a fairly wide crew range which is a lot do with the rig and sails. You can build suit of sails to suit a slightly heavier crew. There is no reason why Viper sails cannot be cut and supplied OD to suit a heavier crew combination if weight is found to be such a concern. Likewise with a Tiger. Flatter sails can be cut and supplied to help reduce the ideal crew weight.

[jimbo_hobie16]

Do we know when the Equipment committee releases the criteria for the Olympic Boat??

[k2mav]

Do we know when the Equipment committee releases the criteria for the Olympic Boat??

 

 

Paul Pascoe said on his published report he will prepare a guide soon, he discarded already the so called "club boats" ...

[macca]

I would imagine the ideal crew weight for the following boats would be

Tornado – 140kg (lighter crew for its length due to the extra beam)

Tiger – 140 to 145kg

Viper – 130kg

With 130kg, I would imagine a 70kg Man and 60kg woman.

 

The Tornado, F18, A Class have a fairly wide crew range which is a lot do with the rig and sails. You can build suit of sails to suit a slightly heavier crew. There is no reason why Viper sails cannot be cut and supplied OD to suit a heavier crew combination if weight is found to be such a concern. Likewise with a Tiger. Flatter sails can be cut and supplied to help reduce the ideal crew weight.

 

 

130kg would be the fat teams... and they will suffer in all but the big breeze. Sail shape is not as big a factor as the displacement issue, and a small boat will reward light teams more so than a longer boat.

 

For a suitable crew weight range for Mixed at an Olympic level you will need an 18ft boat minimum

[devon]

Why mixed, the majority do not want mixed they want to see open, and they want to see it on a C20 Nacra or simular sized mastrom, or 1 up open such as A class, Have the ISAF stuffed it up again? I for one would thoroughly enjoy bitch slapping any gold medalist mixed team hopefulls, that gets stuck racing in a 16 footer event in the olympics, that chooses to bring it out on a club day and show the big boys how its done! Even if they choose an 18 foot class the 20 foot cats will still easily make them look like amatures to the general public, if it isnt about cutting edge and speed then why did they drop the starr for a faster more spectacular monohull? My point is a mixed multi will help the image for sailing than no multihull event but i believe long term it isnt the right decision..but thats just my opinion..

[Tornado-Cat]

There is place for more than one multi at the Olympics.

 

Imagine we have the Finn, the Star and the Yngling. These boat are not only absurd but quite inexistant, have you seen many sailing ?

 

And the 470 trusting 2 places (men and women).

 

These old Blue Blazers live in a world of Scotch and cigar but must not remember when they sailed the last time.

[Tornado-Cat]

Amreica's Cup catamarans at the Olympics ?

 

http://www.seilas.no/wip4/detail.epl?id=649061

[gavparker]

Do we know when the Equipment committee releases the criteria for the Olympic Boat??

 

 

You'd be red hot on an F16 Jimbo!!! But this is the problem with mixed - the crew at the front of the boat is sooooo important on these performance cats regardless of their size and it will be very, very hard to find experience female crews that can compete effectively against male crews. Particularly on the transitions.

 

It's going to make it bloody interesting at least.

[jimbo_hobie16]

Do we know when the Equipment committee releases the criteria for the Olympic Boat??

 

 

You'd be red hot on an F16 Jimbo!!! But this is the problem with mixed - the crew at the front of the boat is sooooo important on these performance cats regardless of their size and it will be very, very hard to find experience female crews that can compete effectively against male crews. Particularly on the transitions.

 

It's going to make it bloody interesting at least.

 

 

Haha thanks Gav, I'm voting F-16 all the way! me and my crew could just get to 120kg.

I'm 176cm and my crew would be about 150cm and we generally weigh about 127kg together.

I would consider both of us as short people and many teams would severely struggle to get near our weight if they were normal or tall height.

 

It's going to shake things up a lot and completely change the game having guys on the front.

 

C'mon the V V V Viper!

[eric e]

it's not like were ambushed

 

by going into a thread called

 

"multi's back in the olympics!!!"

[cynophobe]

If it is to be a truly mixed event, then the helm and crew should switch positions between each race. In mixed doubles tennis the male and female both have to serve.

 

While this is not representative of the sport in its current form, it would make for an interesting event.

 

Surprised this comment didn't get more air time,it does actually make a fair bit more sense than most.

[Trovão]

Plus, I don't recall Rio > Angra? as particularly windy. Maybe different story if it were Búzios, also it'll be winter ..

 

yeah, IF it's búzios then it's pretty windy = heavier crews; but if it's in the bay in rio or (god forbid) in angra, we'll see very light crews, specially in winter.

[dtw8689]

As for crew size for a mix cat is should be a 16f. ( male & female )

 

If one want to keep the cost down as the major goal with min development ( very strict one design ) than a Hobie 16 with spin is the boat. Under 10 this boat is not so much fun. The spin is great and Hobie US is missing the boat on this one not allowing its use.

 

if not

 

its going to be an F16. either viper or open. The problem here is the min weight of the boat at 107k or 235 lbs. This will require more costly construction to be used and the cost will escalate if an open F16 vs a standard viper.

 

I've competed in the Olympics and yes it is costly but I still lean to an open design to see it developed. Time will show that everyone will sail at the min weight. It gets so competitive at this level. I understand the goal was a mixed crew around 300 lbs or 136k but if there is not restriction it will be much lower.

 

TW

[Sysfx]

Amreica's Cup catamarans at the Olympics ?

 

http://www.seilas.no...l.epl?id=649061

 

Anyone else heard rumours that AC management will lend or rent their high tech electronics to improve Olympic coverage? Or that they will propose a 16ft winged cat for 2016?

[Tornado-Cat]

Amreica's Cup catamarans at the Olympics ?

 

http://www.seilas.no...l.epl?id=649061

 

Anyone else heard rumours that AC management will lend or rent their high tech electronics to improve Olympic coverage? Or that they will propose a 16ft winged cat for 2016?

Seriously F16 ? the youth championship is on F16. What will they do when they grow ? it will not be an AC45 for sure as they weight a bit ....heavier.

[K38BOB]

Amreica's Cup catamarans at the Olympics ?

 

http://www.seilas.no...l.epl?id=649061

 

Anyone else heard rumours that AC management will lend or rent their high tech electronics to improve Olympic coverage? Or that they will propose a 16ft winged cat for 2016?

 

 

They submitted an 18ft design way back

[Pete Pollard]

As for crew size for a mix cat is should be a 16f. ( male & female )

 

If one want to keep the cost down as the major goal with min development ( very strict one design ) than a Hobie 16 with spin is the boat. Under 10 this boat is not so much fun. The spin is great and Hobie US is missing the boat on this one not allowing its use.

 

if not

 

its going to be an F16. either viper or open. The problem here is the min weight of the boat at 107k or 235 lbs. This will require more costly construction to be used and the cost will escalate if an open F16 vs a standard viper.

 

I've competed in the Olympics and yes it is costly but I still lean to an open design to see it developed. Time will show that everyone will sail at the min weight. It gets so competitive at this level. I understand the goal was a mixed crew around 300 lbs or 136k but if there is not restriction it will be much lower.

 

TW

 

I actually weighed several F16s, they were all significantly above the class weight, except for the Taipan 4.9, it was two lbs heavy as I recall.

 

I'd like to see an open F16 format.

 

FWIW the current Alter cup champions, sailed on Vipers weighed in at 345 lbs, I believe.

[Tornado-Cat]

The multi are back in the Olympics with the Nacra 17, designed by Pete Melvin from Melvin Morelli who is, I think, also working for the AC.

 

Other great news, the Kite is in for 2016.

 

Bad news, Isaf is replacing the windsurfer by the kite and keep old classes like the Finn and the 470, men and women because of their strong lobby.

 

 

Please sign the petition to help our friends windsurfers. I have been an intensive windsurfer sailor during 15 years, it is a lot of fun. Don't hesitate to share the petition to you friends, FB page etc...

 

http://www.change.org/petitions/isaf-keep-windsurfing-as-olympic-discipline?#