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ianlf

F-22 Update

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lmeanwhile mr. farrier and his site have gone very quiet about his factory f22...

which this time last year looked like it could be ready...

 

was the development space in chch nz?

was it damaged in the 2-quakes?

 

might be time for another update Ian

 

Just rather busy here with everything proceeding methodically as it should. The F-22 is not being

pushed into production at great expense, so the final cost per boat will be very reasonable, and

a low entry level price means many are likely to be sold. This means a higher volume, with better

efficiency, both of which will further ensure a low entry level price, and a class racer (F-22R) that

can really generate some numbers.

 

We now have floats, beams, folding system and rudders ready to go, and it will not be too long

before we have the main hull done. Latest photos below:

 

post-18231-011746500 1306108047_thumb.jpg

Waiting for just one more bit

 

post-18231-092390000 1306108017_thumb.jpg

Which is in progress

 

No real earthquake damage at our factory, but some at the mold makers which can be seen on:

 

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Any progress on the deck Ian?

 

Working on the design and tooling details now. Will be the last major item, but will not be the usual large deck mold as such, which will make it very easy to offer the different cabin configurations almost immediately. This is mainly due to the third generation folding system, where the beam mount areas are external to the hull, and do not have to be part of the deck. This opens up many possibilities for the deck/cabin/cockpit arrangement which no longer has to allow for the beams and their alignment.

 

I've been trying to improve this area since the F-24 and F-28, where some unnecessary complication/duplication was apparent, and I felt there had to be a better way. The F-24 Mk II was a major step forward structurally over the F-27, but I always felt there was still more progress to be made, just could not quite nail it. However, nailed now, and the result will be a very flexible configuration, with a number of very interesting new options now becoming apparent in the cockpit area, plus a lighter and simpler boat overall.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

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thanks Ian

 

are the rig options basically sorted?

 

going roller furling boom again?

 

Probably boomless on the basic boat, but a roller furling boom or system will be optional. But I will not really sort this out until after the production prototype has been launched and tested, as there are some new things that I want to try.

 

Main hull plug now also has some color, with first fairing coat applied to plug:

 

post-18231-006172300 1306155960_thumb.jpg

 

Just sanding, the finish coat, and then some polishing left to do!

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

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This is mainly due to the third generation folding system, where the beam mount areas are external to the hull, and do not have to be part of the deck.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

 

Ian, Ive been looking at your site WRT the F32. Will you be making an upgrade to third generation folding system for these boats?

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What is the rough price range of this boat? Sorry, I have to ask! :P

 

A bit early for exact pricing yet, but my target range for the base F-22 is from $25,000 (base kit) to $48,000 (sail away boat). Covered in more detail at bottom of:

 

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/F-22Availability.html

 

(see under Costs)

 

post-18231-058999200 1306187705_thumb.jpg

Some shots of Bob Hall's Melvest built custom F-22 in Western Australia

post-18231-048201100 1306188656_thumb.jpg

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This is mainly due to the third generation folding system, where the beam mount areas are external to the hull, and do not have to be part of the deck.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

 

Ian, Ive been looking at your site WRT the F32. Will you be making an upgrade to third generation folding system for these boats?

 

The F-32 already has the third generation folding system, which was first introduced with the F-33 in 2003:

 

post-18231-055277300 1306191074_thumb.jpg

 

The main features are the external beam mounts (more room inside, and no foot traps in deck)

plus the metal brackets on beams have been eliminated

 

post-18231-087093000 1306190814_thumb.jpg

Both the F-32 and F-22 have improved things even further, with a better beam shape, while beam compression pads

are now on top which makes them very easy to monitor and adjust.

 

post-18231-082947800 1306190887_thumb.jpg

Folding struts attach directly to beam (no brackets) while beams taper off towards inner end,

meaning less weight and less windage (when both sailing and trailering). F-22 shown.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

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Got a question on building molds. I'm not a production guru but how come you still build plugs rather than directly CNCing the molds? I see a lot of boat builders doing this so it's not just you but I've also seen a lot of boat builders going the plugless route. One I saw was a superyacht builder in England where the CNC machine is basically a 100ft shed (quite impressive).

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I don't personally do it but I can only imagine what it would cost to have a CNC machine set up to mill out that large of a mold.

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post-18231-011746500 1306108047_thumb.jpg

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

 

Maybe it's already there

 

 

post-24720-062563800 1306329143_thumb.jpg

 

just sayin'

 

Rumbled darn it! And it took a lot of work in Photoshop to put those wood props in place....

 

post-18231-085430000 1306332654_thumb.jpg

 

But next time you are sailing along and hear a sudden wooshing sound, then you may have been passed by a stealth F-22.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs than work

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Got a question on building molds. I'm not a production guru but how come you still build plugs rather than directly CNCing the molds? I see a lot of boat builders doing this so it's not just you but I've also seen a lot of boat builders going the plugless route. One I saw was a superyacht builder in England where the CNC machine is basically a 100ft shed (quite impressive).

 

Works okay for 'one offs' or limited volume highly expensive boats, and such CNC machined molds are usually used to form the hull shape, that can be vacuum bagged, with hull then being painted afterwards. But this is not so good for a full production boat where hundreds of boats will be made from one set of molds. In this case one needs a mold with a glossy and very hard wearing surface, and the best way in the marine field is still a gelcoated mold made over a male plug. Male plugs are also a lot easier to fair and polish than a female mold. For a CNC female mold to work for high production, the only option may be a metal one, and that would take quite a large chunk of metal and cash. Polishing would be quite a chore too, and thus metal molds are usually only used in very high volume fields such as automotive.

 

Once a female mold is made, the original plug (temporary in most cases) is often thrown away, and the mold is then used to make a full fiberglass gelcoated master plug, which is then used to make all future molds. This process also allows one to eliminate every little defect the easy way when turning the molds (hollow spots become bumps) so that future molds can be just about perfect. The F-27 was however done differently again, with the hull and deck plugs being an actual foam cored boat (all epoxy), which then went sailing as the prototype SUPER FOX.

 

post-18231-079904300 1306375645_thumb.jpg

 

Photo shows the F-22 all epoxy float plug, which was made by yet another process, to ensure a perfect join line, and this has actually become the permanent float plug. There are thus many ways to make molds, each with various advantages.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Hi ian,

 

Great looking project! I noticed you changed the bow and stern profiles on the ama's. Are there any other subtle differences between the production boat and the original plan boat? The ama's look great and the sAme bow profile would look good on the main hull.

 

I am also curious, what level of finish is the basic kit going to be? Gelcoat finish or just primer? Will the interior bulkheads and furniture panels be installed? Interior paint? I hope to be ordering a kit when they become available and am curious how you are going to be able to keep the price low. Given the cost of the materials, coupled with a couple hundred man hours of labor and 25k disappears quickly.

 

Thanks for all the updates and info!

 

Cheers,

 

T

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At $25K that'd be a great boat to have around the Great Lakes, too.

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Great looking project! I noticed you changed the bow and stern profiles on the ama's. Are there any other subtle differences between the production boat and the original plan boat? The ama's look great and the sAme bow profile would look good on the main hull.

 

I am also curious, what level of finish is the basic kit going to be? Gelcoat finish or just primer? Will the interior bulkheads and furniture panels be installed? Interior paint? I hope to be ordering a kit when they become available and am curious how you are going to be able to keep the price low. Given the cost of the materials, coupled with a couple hundred man hours of labor and 25k disappears quickly.

 

There has been quite a few detail changes and improvements, mostly for efficient production, but the basic lines, beams, and folding system will all stay much the same as the plan version.

 

post-18231-017814400 1310509546_thumb.jpg

 

Cost and format of the basic kit cannot really be determined until after we have built the first boat, or two, but base kit will include the three hulls, beams, folding system, plus some hardware, and maybe also the mast extrusion. Exterior finish will be gelcoat, the main structural bulkheads will be installed, but the interior will be unfinished.

 

Price will depend on what volume we can achieve initially (and how well I can get it all together). Volume is going to have to be very high to achieve the estimated prices, but that is what we are tooling up for.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that Work

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earthquakes and other freaks of nature aside, any rough estimates on when you hope the first boat may hit the water?

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Cost and format of the basic kit cannot really be determined until after we have built the first boat, or two, but base kit will include the three hulls, beams, folding system, plus some hardware, and maybe also the mast extrusion. Exterior finish will be gelcoat, the main structural bulkheads will be installed, but the interior will be unfinished.

 

Great looking project even for current monohull sailor without any previous multi experience. Any estimates for required working hours to get a base kit to sailing condition if only structurally essential interior works are done? My plan would be to get the boat sailing first and build the interior later...

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earthquakes and other freaks of nature aside, any rough estimates on when you hope the first boat may hit the water?

 

Will take as long as it takes to get it right. Currently doing the beam and folding system installation details for main hull, and am now on my third computer build. The first one would have done it, but not as good as it could be, and will I just keep going until its right. This is a completely new way of installing the third generation beams/folding system, and it is better and quicker to sort it out on the computer first, rather than on the boat. But just about there, at which point I can finally turn off the design computer and build the first boat.

 

post-18231-035014700 1310607844_thumb.jpg

 

How it is done on the plan built boat - very clean compared to my earlier designs. Production boat will be similar, but with some further improvements again

 

post-18231-072089300 1310607858_thumb.jpg

 

The nice thing about the third generation folding system is less intrusion into the cabin, plan built boat show, and the production version will have an even bigger bulkhead opening due to some further improvements

 

Build time for the kit hulls is still to be determined yet, as it will depend on how good I can configure it all, but looking better every day.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that Work

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So are we going to see some testing in Lytleton then?

 

Yes, and at 43° south it is perfect for a real work out!

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that Work

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Ian.

I am so glad to see you still use the word "Floats" to describe the outer hulls on a trimaran.

All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers. :D

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All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers.

 

 

 

If that's bothersome, then here's a list that ought to really set you to spinning... ;-)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms

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Both NSW builders are now catching me up, having been very busy with the F-22 deck design and mold plug.

 

Off topic question: what deck models will be available for F-22? Will there be daggerboard/centreboard models?

 

This question has been transferred into the right topic - hopefully!

 

There will be daggerboard and kick up centerboard options for the F-22 as both have their advantages, and it is hard to decide which is best, so easier to offer both. Daggerboard will be first, and the centerboard option will follow as time permits. The foil itself has been designed so that it can be used in either format, so we only need different cases.

 

Meanwhile, we have now demolished the F-22 hull plug (which took a deep breath), but the decks had to be cleared for the F-22 deck plug and mold - the last major mold needed!!

 

post-18231-059445700 1314738234_thumb.jpg

 

F-22 factory progress web page will be updated later today (NZ time).

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that Work

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Is it going to be a short or long cabin or either? Is the aft cabin going to be available? I think I know the answers but I'm sure enquiring minds want to know.

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BINGO I'll second that!!

 

 

 

Ian.

I am so glad to see you still use the word "Floats" to describe the outer hulls on a trimaran.

All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers. :D

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Some fun here. My watch says half past Vaka quarter to Wing sail and 3 elements. The calender now shows 1 year and change to AC Frisco and something tells me no one will be using anything but floats for the race. Gotta love the Dark Side and its followers.Keep your sticks up.

 

.

All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers.

 

 

 

If that's bothersome, then here's a list that ought to really set you to spinning... ;-)

 

http://en.wikipedia...._nautical_terms

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Is it going to be a short or long cabin or either? Is the aft cabin going to be available? I think I know the answers but I'm sure enquiring minds want to know.

 

Both short and long cabins are being done, as is the aft cabin. The key here is maximum flexibility, and the deck mold has undergone considerable design work in order to make it easy to change from one configuration to the other on the fly. In fact there is currently no other deck mold quite like it.

 

post-18231-039778800 1314773604_thumb.jpg

 

Hull mold now cleaned up, polished, waxed and ready to go!

The standard of finish is very obvious, and the best I have ever done.

 

Some more photos are on http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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BINGO I'll second that!!

 

 

 

Ian.

I am so glad to see you still use the word "Floats" to describe the outer hulls on a trimaran.

All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers. :D

#1. Apologies for the tangent

#2. I do prefer the polynesian 3 letter descriptions of the various components. Call me lazy, but ama is much quicker and easier to use than float, outrigger, or my personal favorite: pontooncool.gif. Likewise for aka vs. crossbeams and Vaka vs. main hull.

 

I guess my personal quest for efficiency has overcome my anglo bias.

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Is it going to be a short or long cabin or either? Is the aft cabin going to be available? I think I know the answers but I'm sure enquiring minds want to know.

 

Both short and long cabins are being done, as is the aft cabin. The key here is maximum flexibility, and the deck mold has undergone considerable design work in order to make it easy to change from one configuration to the other on the fly. In fact there is currently no other deck mold quite like it.

 

post-18231-039778800 1314773604_thumb.jpg

 

Hull mold now cleaned up, polished, waxed and ready to go!

The standard of finish is very obvious, and the best I have ever done.

 

Some more photos are on http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

 

That's what I thought. Thanks.

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Another four F-22s (built from plans) have just been launched:

 

Denmark: post-18231-055922800 1319067481_thumb.jpg

 

Canada: post-18231-040579800 1319067528_thumb.jpg

 

California: post-18231-045707900 1319067551_thumb.jpg

 

Canada: post-18231-028598800 1319067568_thumb.jpg

 

More details on my web site at: http://www.f-boat.com/recentnews.html

Meanwhile, back at our factory, we now have the F-22 main hull mold setup to rotate,

which is an essential requirement to make hulls efficiently,

 

post-18231-001494900 1319067610_thumb.jpg

 

More details at: http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

 

Our main problem at present is lack of space, as we were in a larger 10,000 sq.ft factory by this stage with the F-27, and we are being squeezed with all the molds and infrastructure here now at present. We had to rig up a temporary booth to gelcoat the main hull today, our current one being too small. However, it looks like we will have a 10,800 sq. ft factory for early 2012, which should be plenty of room.

 

It's still a little surprising at what is actually required to setup a fully operational manufacturing facility, even though I have done it all before. However, second time around means it can be done more efficiently, and at less cost. Still many little details to go, but getting them right, while also maintaining very high standards, is what makes a great product.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Apologies upfront for another tangent, but there have been some good discussions on this thread.

 

This may sound like an insult of a question to ask Ian of all people, but do you see a market for a non folding tri, with solid side decks?

 

Why I ask, is i'd like to find a glass tri, with no tramps, with staunchions mainly to make it safer/easier with a young family.

My existing tri is on a swing mooring, so marina berths costs are not an issue. More value would be placed on a robust platform than it's ability to fold. At 30 years old, it is a dated design that has little of the performance that makes the F boats so appealing.

 

If you looked at something around 30' as an example, how much of a weight penalty would solid decks add? I'm assuming more than existing floats would be happy with? Are there any issues or suggestions with leaving what is often a dry stored boat moored indefinately? (antifouling aside)

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The additional weight of a solid side deck, if built in composite, would not be the significant factor. The main down side of solid wings is the extra windage, there has been a discussion about the recent capsize of a tri and one of the causes was put down to very close weave side nets.

 

The older design tris like the one that you have [telstar?] were designed to sail with 3 hulls mostly in the water so windage under the wings was not as much of a factor as on a more modern tri [Like the Farriers] where the windward float is designed to fly higher under normal sailing conditions.

 

To imply that F-tris are not 'Robust' might mean that you have not sailed one! Or that you mean easier under-foot?

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More value would be placed on a robust platform than it's ability to fold.

 

This is a general question I had about all the folding tris...and now that it has been asked, maybe Ian and others can comment.

 

My mooring, for example, is in a fairly stormy and choppy area. We might regularly see 2 foot chop, but a couple times a season see winds up to 50 kts (last hurricane near miss).

 

I've kept my little sloop there, buttoned up during hurricane watches (boom removed, hatches battened) with no problem - because a single hull is very streamlined and solid in such condition, especially when self bailing.

 

So the question becomes whether folding tris - left in the open position most all of the time - present additional potential problems at a relatively exposed mooring?? My gut tells me this could put a lot of stress on the floats and brackets, but experience and engineering are often contrary to guts.

 

Enclosed - mooring in a blow!

 

post-56007-083847100 1319121286_thumb.jpg

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Apologies upfront for another tangent, but there have been some good discussions on this thread.

 

This may sound like an insult of a question to ask Ian of all people, but do you see a market for a non folding tri, with solid side decks?

 

Why I ask, is i'd like to find a glass tri, with no tramps, with staunchions mainly to make it safer/easier with a young family.

My existing tri is on a swing mooring, so marina berths costs are not an issue. More value would be placed on a robust platform than it's ability to fold. At 30 years old, it is a dated design that has little of the performance that makes the F boats so appealing.

 

If you looked at something around 30' as an example, how much of a weight penalty would solid decks add? I'm assuming more than existing floats would be happy with? Are there any issues or suggestions with leaving what is often a dry stored boat moored indefinately? (antifouling aside)

 

I used to have such a boat,

 

post-18231-087398600 1319135762_thumb.jpg

 

but I would not have one again, nor would I design one. Too much downside, expensive to make, and there is no market.

 

They are heavy, have too much windage under decks, plus pounding under the side decks can be a problem. That said, an older boat like this can be a lot of fun - mine certainly was, and it converted me over to trimarans, having been a mono sailor up until then. In reality, there's nothing wrong with most old boats, of any type, and they can be a great low cost way of going sailing.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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This is a general question I had about all the folding tris...and now that it has been asked, maybe Ian and others can comment.

 

My mooring, for example, is in a fairly stormy and choppy area. We might regularly see 2 foot chop, but a couple times a season see winds up to 50 kts (last hurricane near miss).

 

I've kept my little sloop there, buttoned up during hurricane watches (boom removed, hatches battened) with no problem - because a single hull is very streamlined and solid in such condition, especially when self bailing.

 

So the question becomes whether folding tris - left in the open position most all of the time - present additional potential problems at a relatively exposed mooring?? My gut tells me this could put a lot of stress on the floats and brackets, but experience and engineering are often contrary to guts.

 

 

There's absolutely no reason why one of my folding trimarans cannot be left on a mooring. The folding F-39 is not trailerable so it has to be left on a mooring or in a marina, with absolutely no restrictions.

 

post-18231-087518800 1319137417_thumb.jpg

 

The loads on a mooring are only a fraction of what the boat would see when being driven hard to windward in 30 knots, and my designs handle that with ease, so leaving on a mooring is an very acceptable choice.

 

My question is why would you? I know there is no other option in some cases, but why leave a boat on a mooring when it is so easy to put in on a trailer and keep ashore. I kept my original tri on a mooring, but the continual need to anti foul, plus scrape all the bird poop off before going sailing, not to mention rowing half a mile to get to the boat (in all weather), and the need to keep a dinghy ashore, does tend to take the gloss off a days sail.

 

One of the main reasons I invented the folding system was so that one did not have to moor a small tri. Mooring is just not worth the hassles for a small boat, and usually the only small multihulls that end up on moorings are the ones that take a small army and forever to launch or trailer.

 

post-18231-048684800 1319136906_thumb.jpg

 

All that work just to go sailing.....

 

There has been two or three fixed beam versions of my designs built, where the owner wanted to put it on the mooring, but the saving in not fitting the folding system was very small compared to the difficulty in trying to sell such boats, which is usually at a much bigger loss. Much more demand for folding boats.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Thanks for the answers, Ian.

 

Here in Rhode Island we are short on bird poop. It's not florida! We do have some marine growth, but with the mix of fresh and salt water...not as much as you would expect.

 

My guess is that 95% plus of all boating in RI is done from moorings and slips. There are boat ramps, but they present many problems compared to mooring or a slip.

 

Speaking of just my case, and that of some friends, we have the boat moored off a nearby beach. In my case, I can walk there. It takes maybe 10 minutes to pull the dinghy out and row to the mooring...and I'm off. I've never trailered a boat except for in/out at the start and end of the year, but it is hard to imagine it is anywhere that easy!

 

Some old sailors note that the easier it is to go sailing, the more we are likely to do so. Trailering requires more of a commitment....

 

We do also have a hoist setup in Newport for dry storage - which is great for the racers and dry sailors.

 

Since the US (and world) market is so fractionated, it would be hard to predict how many people will moor or use a slip as opposed to trailer. But my guess is that, on the east coast at least, vastly more folks will try to keep boats over 20 feet in the water.

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well I keep my boat on the hard, mast up

it takes me about the same time to get her ready as it takes other folks to unload their crap into a cute wheelbarrow... run to their slip, unpack everything and bring the wheelbarrow back ....

 

I unpack from the car into the boat, hook up, throw her in the water, unfold and I am ready ...

 

like 10 min ....

 

thor

 

slip savings ... 1500 dlr a year,, no paint savings 800 dlr a year... there are other savings as well....

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My F32 will live on a swinging mooring, just as my solid wing trimaran did.

 

You need to leave a Trimaran moored with bridle lines to the floats or ends of beams to stop it crabbing around in the breeze. But even so, the loadings will be much lighter than a monohull.

 

The standing rigging should be snug to stop the mast banging about too.

 

In many areas, no boats should stay afloat all year and the ability to slide it onto a trailer and take it home instead of craning out and storing in a boatyard for the winter , saves thousands.

 

Self-bailing? imagine punching a hole in the hull with a stray tree-trunk floating about in a storm!

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Mast up is a whole 'nother thing! That's pretty close to perfect - 10 minutes. Our boat ramps are fairly poor and there is very little, if any, mast-up storage convenient to them.

 

In RI, the longest we leave in water is usually 5 months. Then it goes to trailer or hard.

 

Of course, the other issue is size of car. There is often a cost in MPG or other factors (year-round) to keep a car or truck that can pull any boat larger than about 2,000 lbs all told (boat, motor, gear, trailer). The perfect solution differs by locale, I guess....

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I've just switched from keeping a boat in a slip ( a 35' cat ) to an F27 that will live on its trailer. As others have said, there's no time savings having the boat in a slip. It is quicker to get underway, but no quicker at all coming back in and getting everything cleaned up and put away. But the big attraction with trailering (which I did for 15 years before the 5-year slip experiment)is that you can do all the maintenance at home, so those chores don't eat into your sailing/vacation time. That adds days to the time spent out on the water instead of working at the dock. And, of course, it's way cheaper to escape the endless marina fees.

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VMG: you are pretty close regarding the Telstar guess, it is an Australian built Manta which was basically an updated Telsar with extended stern and different deck config.Still circa 1982.

 

You are right regarding the sailing attitude. It does not get anywhere near the angles a powered up F boat can do, mainly due to the weight and smaller rig.

 

We've had trailables such as Hartley 16's growing up, and I can't imagine loading up, towing down to the beach, mast raising, etc to go for a sail but we did, even just for an afternoon. After 6 years of owning a boat on a mooring, I don't mind still having to antifoul each year, and we have comorants here that sure know how to sh*t on you boat.

 

So Ian, if you imagine turning back the clock to when you had you did have you old tri, what would be today's equivalent? There's bugger all from what I can see over here.Yes it is good fun for it's cost, and certainly had more attractive features for family sailing than other 4ksb's that were alternatives.I'd still be happy to upgrade it for something newer if there was a similar alternative...

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The first F-22 production main hull has now been made:

 

post-18231-074561900 1321039393_thumb.jpg

 

This was resin infused and the first infusion for such a large part is always a nervous time, as one can never be sure how the resin will travel through the laminate. If it does not go to plan, the hull can even be lost. However, considerable thought went into the placement of the various reinforcements and flow layers to where infusion proved to be problem free. The whole hull was literally infused in around an hour, with no fumes or mess, while the infusion process gives just about the perfect laminate. Some more details are on:

 

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

 

This first main hull is now being used to make the interior molds, and the only major mold left to develop is the deck mold, which is in process. Still many little details to go, but it is important to get them just right, and this takes time.

 

Space had become the main problem as more major molds appeared, plus also the main hull just made, but a new much larger 10,800sq. ft factory has just been secured. Move in will be on February 1st, and this will give us the room necessary for F-22 series production.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Very cool, Ian, and congrats on the first hull!

 

So, after this, hulls should come out of the mold at about 2 per week? Or does it get even quicker after that? Building boats in quantity seems like a complicated matter, what with all the other molded parts and hand work. I've read a bit about the number of hours required - hopefully your modern production methods can bring that down, but it still seems to be quite a labor intensive process.

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Very cool, Ian, and congrats on the first hull!

 

So, after this, hulls should come out of the mold at about 2 per week? Or does it get even quicker after that? Building boats in quantity seems like a complicated matter, what with all the other molded parts and hand work. I've read a bit about the number of hours required - hopefully your modern production methods can bring that down, but it still seems to be quite a labor intensive process.

 

Building a folding trimaran is always going to be more labor intensive than other boats, so one has to make the extra effort to be more efficient, and also not to over capitalize by just throwing money at it. It took 4 years to get the F-27 production rate from one a month to two a week, but doing the same with the F-22 will be considerably quicker, and cost significantly less.

 

post-18231-050815000 1321118923_thumb.jpg

Photo shows the F-27 Factory around 1987 at end of the production line.

The F-22 factory will be bigger again by February 2012, and it will be possible

to build the smaller F-22 even faster.

 

Using molds more efficiently is one key, and my latest methods will enable us to build boats faster out of one mold, but to get the volume needed it will still take more main hull and float molds. This requires master plugs to make those molds from, and we already have the float masters, while the next step with the main hull will be to build the master plug. Deck master plug is currently under construction.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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Does anyone here know of any F-22 builds taking place along the Eastern seaboard (US). I am interested in having a look at what is involved in building, as well as getting a feel of how the F-22 compares in size to the Corsair 24!!.

 

 

Please pm me the details.

 

Regards,

 

**Robert Thompson**

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hi Robert,

not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

 

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

 

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

 

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space

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hi Robert,

not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

 

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

 

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

 

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space

Hi Eric,

 

Thanks for the information. I was unaware that the F-22 plans were no longer available from Mr. Farrier. In all honesty it probably doesn't matter as building a complete boat improbable when realistically considering both work and family obligations. However, with the sailing season having given way to old man winter up here, it's easy to find one's mind wandering onto such self-delusional endeavors. laugh.gif

 

I am still interested in having a look at a F-22 build if possible, as I said, if for no other reason that to get a realistic feel for the size comparison between the boats. So, if some F-22 builder is hunkered down in his (HEATED) workshop and is willing to show off his work-in-progress, please let me know.

 

Best Regards,

 

**Robert Thompson**

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hi Robert,

not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

 

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

 

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

 

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space

 

The F-22 and F-24 are actually very similar in size, main exception being the larger floats on the F-22. The F-24 has been a great boat for its size, but it is now over 20 years old, and I have worked very hard at making the F-22 even better in every way, not just in performance. As a result it has more interior room, with less intrusion from the third generation beams, plus a wider/roomier forward bunk which is 6" (150mm) wider around the shoulder area between the forward beams. The F-22 centerboard version will look significantly larger again, although in reality the difference is not major, it just looks and feels larger (which can be important too).

 

The following is a good comparison shot of the F-22 and Sprint/24 from the exterior.

 

post-18231-015294000 1321369653_thumb.jpg

 

And the following is a frontal comparison of the F-22 and F-24 (blue line), where the greater volume of the all yellow F-22 is fairly obvious

 

post-18231-007115500 1321369596_thumb.jpg

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine,

Designs that work..

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hi Robert,

not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

 

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

 

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

 

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space

 

The F-22 and F-24 are actually very similar in size, main exception being the larger floats on the F-22. The F-24 has been a great boat for its size, but it is now over 20 years old, and I have worked very hard at making the F-22 even better in every way, not just in performance. As a result it has more interior room, with less intrusion from the third generation beams, plus a wider/roomier forward bunk which is 6" (150mm) wider around the shoulder area between the forward beams. The F-22 centerboard version will look significantly larger again, although in reality the difference is not major, it just looks and feels larger (which can be important too).

 

The following is a good comparison shot of the F-22 and Sprint/24 from the exterior.

 

post-18231-015294000 1321369653_thumb.jpg

 

And the following is a frontal comparison of the F-22 and F-24 (blue line), where the greater volume of the all yellow F-22 is fairly obvious

 

post-18231-007115500 1321369596_thumb.jpg

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine,

Designs that work..

 

Mr. Farrier,

 

Thank you for the response. The comparison image very helpful, however would be more helpful to me if it showed the difference between the F-22 and C-24II. Also, is there a possibility getting this same type of comparison in profile?

 

Best Regards,

 

**Robert Thompson**

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Thank you for the response. The comparison image very helpful, however would be more helpful to me if it showed the difference between the F-22 and C-24II. Also, is there a possibility getting this same type of comparison in profile?

 

Best Regards,

 

**Robert Thompson**

 

The C-24II is exactly the same as the F-24 Mk II, just a different name. After I left Corsair they were no longer allowed to use my name or trademarks, as the boats were not necessarily being built to my specifications. The Sprint is also the C24II with a different deck mold, which gives a bigger cockpit but a smaller cabin. It also has a much bigger rig to make it faster, but which also makes it less suitable as a cruiser. That is my opinion, others may disagree.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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Ian, I don't know you but from your comments in various threads in here it would appear that you have a fairly sizeable chip on your shoulder regarding anything to do with your old employer. Perhaps you should promote the positive aspects of your ideas and less of the negatives from others?

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MacPherson...

 

THIS thread is about the F22 by the designer of the F22.

 

Some people find the information in it refreshingly honest and informative.

 

YOU ARE TROLLING! Go and spoil something else.

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Not trolling (whatever the hell that is)

 

But based on the interjections in the sprint thread and in this one it's pretty clear that there are cheap shots being taken at corsair and as I stated above; it would be better to focus on the positives rather than putting someone else's product down.

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Ian, I don't know you but from your comments in various threads in here it would appear that you have a fairly sizeable chip on your shoulder regarding anything to do with your old employer. Perhaps you should promote the positive aspects of your ideas and less of the negatives from others?

 

Your posting seems more of a personal attack then contributing anything new.

 

The facts are facts when comparing boats as asked, in a topic about the F-22:

 

The F-22 and F-24 are actually very similar in size, main exception being the larger floats on the F-22. The F-24 has been a great boat for its size, but it is now over 20 years old, and I have worked very hard at making the F-22 even better in every way, not just in performance. As a result it has more interior room, with less intrusion from the third generation beams, plus a wider/roomier forward bunk which is 6" (150mm) wider around the shoulder area between the forward beams. The F-22 centerboard version will look significantly larger again, although in reality the difference is not major, it just looks and feels larger (which can be important too).

---------

 

The C-24II is exactly the same as the F-24 Mk II, just a different name. After I left Corsair they were no longer allowed to use my name or trademarks, as the boats were not necessarily being built to my specifications (a fact and explains the different names). The Sprint is also the C24II with a different deck mold, which gives a bigger cockpit but a smaller cabin. It also has a much bigger rig to make it faster, but which also makes it less suitable as a cruiser. That is my opinion, others may disagree.

 

I'm not going to hide the improvements in the F-22 compared to my older designs. If you don't like hearing about my latest designs and all the new developments at Farrier Marine then don't read my postings.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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I have to testify to quite the contrary as macca's post.

 

I've been following and admiring Ian's work for years and until now hadn't even gathered that the relationship wasn't current. He hardly goes about blowing the trumpet on this subject, to say the least.

 

I don't think the above post is out of line in the slightest in tone, content, or in any way. Including upon re-reading. I don't find the "negative" in it at all, let alone any "chip."

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Not trolling (whatever the hell that is)

 

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".

 

 

Now bugger off troll.post-32772-067222900 1321414807_thumb.jpg

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Perhaps I have it all wrong, and if so I apologise.

 

I would like to know what specifications are unsatisfactory on the C24 compared to the F24?

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Nowhere did he say "unsatisfactory." Only "not necessarily built to my specifications."

 

That includes simply different. It doesn't even begin to suggest "unsatisfactory."

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You're ought to bait the man, aren't you?

 

I've answered fully and am done.

 

It's obviously your prerogative to think whatever you want. I extremely strongly suspect you are the only person thinking this way, however.

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Perhaps I have it all wrong, and if so I apologise.

 

I would like to know what specifications are unsatisfactory on the C24 compared to the F24?

 

I do not know if they are unsatisfactory, and I have never stated such. There have been no major problems with the C24II that I have heard of, but obviously it would not be a good idea to allow my name or trademarks to be used on a boat that I no longer have any control over.

 

When I parted ways with Corsair (who was a licensee to me, not my employer) the F-24/C24 was being built to my specifications, but I could no longer be sure that it would be from then on. Corsair's name has thus been on that boat since I left, so they have taken full responsibility, and hence the name change to C24 after I left. It was part of our parting agreement.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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If a designer says a boat is not being built to his specifications it can hardly be viewed as a positive statement, which brings me to my initial point about focussing on the positives of his product and less on the negatives of others.

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Perhaps I have it all wrong, and if so I apologise.

 

I would like to know what specifications are unsatisfactory on the C24 compared to the F24?

 

I do not know if they are unsatisfactory, and I have never stated such. There have been no major problems with the C24II that I have heard of, but obviously it would not be a good idea to allow my name or trademarks to be used on a boat that I no longer have any control over.

 

When I parted ways with Corsair (who was a licensee to me, not my employer) the F-24/C24 was being built to my specifications, but I could no longer be sure that it would be from then on. Corsair's name has thus been on that boat since I left, so they have taken full responsibility, and hence the name change to C24 after I left. It was part of our parting agreement.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

 

 

Ian, no problem, it just comes accross (to me) that it could be better to push the positives of your new stuff (which I like a lot) and leave the history with your old designs and the current builder of such where it lies.

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Ian, no problem, it just comes accross (to me) that it could be better to push the positives of your new stuff (which I like a lot) and leave the history with your old designs and the current builder of such where it lies.

 

+1

 

More eye candy and hot news on the 22, 85, and 32SR please!

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Hot enough for ya?

 

post-32772-087341300 1321466860_thumb.jpg

 

I believe that boat will need extra tiedowns, when folded and on the trailer, to keep it from flying away. Looks like it would tow behind a bicycle.

 

Congratulations to Mike Mentor, the builder, anf Jerry Fiat, the owner. I hope when more pictures are taken the boat will have its own thread

 

The first F-35 RXSPOhMYGodSuperFast.

 

Great color scheme.

 

 

 

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Ian

 

With every new production F-22 build update, like the deck flange plug below, the more interested I get. But a new sail-away F-22 is out of the picture for me. As I look at the 24MkII's that are in my budget I keep thinking about the F-22 'boat in a box' kit you mentioned on f-boat.com. I can't tell if that section has been updated in a while so not sure if it's still going to be an option. Is it? If so, can you provide a few more details on what what will be included and if you think the cost may still be near your target.

 

Thanks

 

DeckFlange.jpg

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Ian

 

With every new production F-22 build update, like the deck flange plug below, the more interested I get. But a new sail-away F-22 is out of the picture for me. As I look at the 24MkII's that are in my budget I keep thinking about the F-22 'boat in a box' kit you mentioned on f-boat.com. I can't tell if that section has been updated in a while so not sure if it's still going to be an option. Is it? If so, can you provide a few more details on what what will be included and if you think the cost may still be near your target.

 

Thanks

 

DeckFlange.jpg

 

The next stage in development will be the selling of hulls and beams etc in kits. We could supply floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard, rudders etc now, but no point in shipping these until we have the main hull and deck ready as well, so all can be shipped as one. We will start shipping kits for self assembly next year, but cannot give accurate costs until after we have built the first two or three hulls.

 

The fully finished sail away boat will then follow as soon as we have an assembly setup up. Due to move into a new factory on Feb 1st, and this will have enough room for the assembly line needed. Working as fast as we can, but there's no timetable or deadlines - the production F-22 is just going to take as long as it takes to get right.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work..

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I bought the plan set but never managed to actually build it...

 

What will be included in the kits for self assembly?

You mentioned mainhull, floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard and rudders, but how about the etc part? Mast, boom, hardware such as mastfot and all the other stuff I cant even begin to imagine that make out the boat?

 

What would have to be bought elsewere?

 

/Jocke

 

 

 

 

The next stage in development will be the selling of hulls and beams etc in kits. We could supply floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard, rudders etc now, but no point in shipping these until we have the main hull and deck ready as well, so all can be shipped as one. We will start shipping kits for self assembly next year, but cannot give accurate costs until after we have built the first two or three hulls.

 

The fully finished sail away boat will then follow as soon as we have an assembly setup up. Due to move into a new factory on Feb 1st, and this will have enough room for the assembly line needed. Working as fast as we can, but there's no timetable or deadlines - the production F-22 is just going to take as long as it takes to get right.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work..

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I bought the plan set but never managed to actually build it...

 

What will be included in the kits for self assembly?

You mentioned mainhull, floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard and rudders, but how about the etc part? Mast, boom, hardware such as mastfot and all the other stuff I cant even begin to imagine that make out the boat?

 

What would have to be bought elsewere?

 

/Jocke

 

It will depend at which stage you buy the kit, which will range from just the three hulls with beams and folding system only (cheapest stage) to everything including all the fittings, mast, and sails. Still too premature to list exactly what will come with every stage, current priority being to build the boat and all the parts first. But will probably be available in three stages. The finished and fully assembled sail way boat will then start after that.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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We reached a major milestone this week with the F-22, as we move into a much larger factory, where serious production can begin:

 

post-18231-074333400 1327968755_thumb.jpg

 

Photo shows the 'first in' main hull mold. We were having to squeeze by this in the old factory, but now there's plenty of room! Downside is the move and setting up the new factory with gelcoat booth etc. will take some time, and interrupt progress. But we will at least now have plenty of room to finally start production once everything is ready.

 

For those interested in more details on the actual boat, the French magazine Multicoques have just done a 4 page sailing test on a French built F-22 in their current issue (No 122), and this can be seen at:

 

http://www.multihulls-world.com/us/store/magazines/122,650.html

 

Both French/English language versions are available, and the download is on a paid basis, but the magazine is very good, and filled with other multihull news.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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Our new factory is now up and running, and first F-22 main hull was lifted out of the mold last week:

 

post-18231-083334000 1336769166_thumb.jpg

 

and it is perfect.

 

It's great to finally have it out after sitting around for so long in the mold, while we made the interior molds etc. and moved factories.

More photos can be seen at http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

 

Still much work to go, but we are getting there.

 

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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