ianlf

F-22 Update

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Of course there are internal halyards. It's foam core in the side walls not solid foam. You would taper to solid laminate at each sheave box / strong point etc.

 

Of course there are internal halyards. It's foam core in the side walls not solid foam. You would taper to solid laminate at each sheave box / strong point etc.

 

Of course there are internal halyards. It's foam core in the side walls not solid foam. You would taper to solid laminate at each sheave box / strong point etc.

 

Sorry for the triple up there.

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This is the only mast I have seen that uses foam and a sheer web in a rig. How come none of the heavy hitters engineer like this? Presentation wise they are a glamour. Well done.

 

The engineer behind these masts is an extremely heavy hitter. Designed the masts and foils for Spitfire, the 12m/40' cat that foiled at 30 knots 10 years ago.

 

Plenty of wing masts have foam or nomex in the walls, and sheer webs. Problem is, they are very labour intensive to fit if you have a two piece mast, and require a lot of blind gluing, which is always tricky. This, and the join add a lot of weight as well so a lot of designers try to avoid it by making the wall laminate thicker. Apart from being heavier, this rarely works as you need a lot of thickness to make the sides stiff enough to resist buckling.

Doing it properly in one hit removes a lot of weight, work and worry.

A glamour finish is mostly a function of heaps of filling and sanding, but with decent moulds, this is minimised. A lot of time has gone into fittings design with the aim of minimising metal to reduce weight, stress concentrations and corrosion issues.

 

I doubt there would be enough buoyancy in the mast to prevent CC hitting the mud.

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Of course there are internal halyards. It's foam core in the side walls not solid foam. You would taper to solid laminate at each sheave box / strong point etc.

 

 

Thats what I get for looking at the photos on my phone, I thought I saw a solid foam section in one shot.

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Wait, can we review? Did I understand right that the "tree trunk" mast also broke? Was this a Farrier section? F22's are now going to alu masts? Is the carbon mast program being abandoned? Sorry for being a fed troll if that's what I am, and I have no dog, etc. but a LITTLE more info would be appreciated!

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yes

I think so

yes

&

yes at this stage

 

how many points did I get out of four?

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It did make a sound like a tree trunk snapping!

 

Still early days yet on what happens next, just sharing the info. More will be shared as decisions are made.

 

Aluminium was always on the program, and is cheaper and probably more durable for a number of reasons that you can find on many other forums.

The decision has been made to stick with aluminium masts for the first few boats, at least until production lands a few boats in a few continents.

 

My boat and the other Brisbane boat nearly complete are looking at either local ally products to get us on the water promptly, or one from OS if a better option develops.

 

Further than that there are no solid decisions, but some really interesting possibilities in other materials and countries.

 

I hope that all the great stuff learned so far making masts in the NZ factory is able to be reused in the future. The shape of the wing is lovely, and the concept of gluing together 3 sections of front and back pairs has all sorts of possibilities. With the right glues and jigs, it would be great to get your boat delivered with a six-pack of carbon inside with a tube of glue and instructions wouldn't it?

Just not yet.

 

Peter H

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yes

I think so

yes

&

yes at this stage

 

how many points did I get out of four?

Four!

You win one of the carbon bits from my garden!

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yes

I think so

yes

&

yes at this stage

 

how many points did I get out of four?

Four!

You win one of the carbon bits from my garden!

Aww sweet thanks. All this action around BOOM must be why the hardstand is so hard to get into ATM.

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Sknot from a different angle at the nationals

Looks like you have a oversize tall

mast, you need to be re-measured!!!

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A question for F22 owners: Have any of you guys raced against Corsair Sprints? If so what have the boat for boat outcomes been?

 

Any observations on speed differences for conditions would be greatly appreciated!

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A question for F22 owners: Have any of you guys raced against Corsair Sprints? If so what have the boat for boat outcomes been?

 

Any observations on speed differences for conditions would be greatly appreciated!

I'm not an F22 owner but have sailed on a couple and raced against a number on my Sprint Mk1.

The plan built standard version F22 I've sailed on is definitely not as fast as the Sprint. It is in my club and the handicap difference for around a 1.5 hour race is about 8 minutes which I think is about right.

The R version F22 is a different story. Having sailed against the plan built versions a fair bit, I think with a skipper and crew of equal ability the 22 is slightly faster than the Sprint. Maybe less so in lighter wind but more so in heavier wind due to the higher volume floats and being able to push a bit harder. They are close though and crew skill, stuff ups and gear issues can quickly reverse the result.

The Australian measurement rating system also confirms my impression. In recent events my rating on the Sprint has been .810 while two other f22's have been .845 and .839 with the higher being the faster and also dependant on crew weight.

Here is a set of results from a regatta last November where two Sprints sailed against an F22R. http://www.yachtingaustralia.com.au/site/yachting/results//wangirslasc/2015/events/Multi2014/series.htm

The thing to look at is the elapsed times and the F22 is in it's early days of development and learning. It will only get faster!

In last year's Surf to City - a 70NM passage raise a well sailed F22 was about 15 minutes in front of my Sprint in an approximately 6 hour race.

I've yet to race against the only factory built F22 on the water even though it is only about 7km away from me due to its well publicised mast issues. Hopefully we will get on the water together tomorrow week in a 40NM race. I'll post the results if it happens.

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Thanks alot Wet. Great info for us in the USA who don't see many F22's, at least on the race course.

 

I have to admit I'm a little bit surprised. I had hopes and dreams that an F22r would be considerably faster than the Sprint.

 

Please keep us posted on your next encounters.

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Thanks alot Wet. Great info for us in the USA who don't see many F22's, at least on the race course.

 

I have to admit I'm a little bit surprised. I had hopes and dreams that an F22r would be considerably faster than the Sprint.

 

Please keep us posted on your next encounters.

 

Don't know where you have been getting your information from, but the F-22 was never designed to be 'considerably faster than the Sprint'. Outright speed was not a design object for the F-22, there being many much more important factors for most buyers. These include a roomier interior, a drier boat, more float buoyancy, cleaner flangeless floats, better foils, all composite parts where possible, cleaner 'metal free' flatter decks, and an all composite high aspect daggerboard rudder. But the core difference is the third generation beams and folding system, the F-22 beams having 18% less frontal area, are higher off the water (drier and less drag), plus they are significantly lighter at only 10kg (22lbs) each, with no metal brackets or multiple bolts.

post-18231-0-12314200-1423853977_thumb.jpg

The beam clearance difference is obvious in the above photo, F-22 at right.

 

post-18231-0-84911600-1423854271_thumb.jpg post-18231-0-00351700-1423855904_thumb.jpg

Besides the flatter (more crew friendly) deck, there are also no beam recesses (can be foot traps)

in main hull (which also allows more room inside),

 

However, while the main improvements are in comfort, convenience, and safety, the many design improvements with hulls and beams will make the F-22R around 5% faster than the Sprint (whose hulls and beams I also designed 23 years ago). But this is just a side benefit, and dependent on crew and sails, so results will vary. A well sailed Sprint could beat a poorly sailed F-22R for instance, a 5% margin not being that much. But a well sailed F-22R could do a horizon job on a poorly sailed Sprint.

 

The standard F-22 will be slower than both, but it is intended to be that way, being much safer and more fun for family crews. Not every owner wants to beat everything else on the water, as the price in peace of mind, and the boat cost, can be too high. Both the F-22R and Sprint are powerful boats and not suitable for the inexperienced (in my opinion), as the potential for capsize is much higher. Less so in the F-22R's case as it has been specifically designed for the taller rig, with floats to suit, having 43% more buoyancy in the first 200mm (8") of float bow immersion for significantly greater fore and aft stability. Not just scaled up floats - they are a completely new design. However, while the floats were designed for the taller rig, it is still a more powerful boat, and best suited only for racers, or light wind areas.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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I have been trying not to make unsubstantiated comments about racing prowess here because as any real sailor knows, the nuts at the wheel make the difference. I will offer some (elapsed time) comparisons from the last 18 months. **

 

WetnWild for example has 3 accomplished A class guys on board his Sprint I, and new rags, and I doubt that any new Sprint II would get near him in all conditions in this country. If he ever gets an F22R I will hang up the TacTic and go cruising.

 

We have in our group an optimised national champ F24 II with square top main and masthead kite and he narrowly beat a very quick F82R in the Surf to City this year. They were both about 15 minutes behind us. We had a bigger gap but some freshening breeze from behind brought them up closer.

 

The plan 22R has attained some great results in the last couple of nationals ahead of any of the Sprints. I spent some time on one (Midnight Rain) in many races and it feels pretty similar to the prod 22R. Differences have been tactical and some sail design nuances. MidRain has the shorter rudder blade which cavitates at high speed so that helps me in stronger stuff. (pimp ad - that blade is for sale). We usually easily beat any Sprints and Dash's, but remember **.

 

post-10329-0-86246700-1423869867_thumb.jpg

 

I have also raced on the plan standard 22 with swinging centreboard and it is roomier but definitely feels detuned. It could certainly do with some new rags for a valid comparison, but I feel the centreboards make a big difference in this comparison.

 

The older designs are still not far away in light stuff with the narrower floats working in their favour, but as it gets up past 10 knots the smiles on all faces on the 22R's grow like the gaps between the boats. Above 12 knots the 22R belies its size and as more of us get the boats set up and sailed well there will be more surprising results posted on the board.

 

The mast program has interrupted racing data collection a fair bit of course, and we are just having fun sailing and cruising the boat so much that racing has not been a burning priority. Our cruising grounds are just too tempting. This was a recent one from near the top of the the sandhills of Moreton Island looking south to the course of the Surf to City race. You will see my (ex) mast in lower picture.

 

Peter

 

post-10329-0-66718200-1423869958_thumb.jpg

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The older designs are still not far away in light stuff with the narrower floats working in their favour, but as it gets up past 10 knots the smiles on all faces on the 22R's grow like the gaps between the boats. Above 12 knots the 22R belies its size and as more of us get the boats set up and sailed well there will be more surprising results posted on the board.

 

Ever raced against a well sailed F31 Peter?

 

I also think the little green boat still has speed to come. When the main matches the mast I'm sure C&C will get more out of her.

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Hey Mitch!

No 31's racing with us at the moment, but my old 27 was on the course for the Surf to City. He was behind the 82R but there is a lot of local knowledge in the first half of that drain race, and I had a great crew.

The green boat is certainly the one to beat, hoping to sail next to her one day soon.

Peter

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The little green F22R, Sknot, was only a whisker behind trailable multi div 2 winner F31 Goldfinger at Geelong - but as light and little boat, it needs flat water to excel.

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Definitely, it feels lovely in flat water. We have had a couple of southeasters growing ahead of the swell building up, and they are the days it feels like a giant killer. But a big seabreeze with wind against tide reminds you that physics laws cannot be broken, and inevitably upwind legs against big condomarans can be a bit painful. :angry:

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I have been trying not to make unsubstantiated comments about racing prowess here because as any real sailor knows, the nuts at the wheel make the difference. I will offer some (elapsed time) comparisons from the last 18 months. **

 

WetnWild for example has 3 accomplished A class guys on board his Sprint I, and new rags, and I doubt that any new Sprint II would get near him in all conditions in this country. If he ever gets an F22R I will hang up the TacTic and go cruising.

 

We have in our group an optimised national champ F24 II with square top main and masthead kite and he narrowly beat a very quick F82R in the Surf to City this year. They were both about 15 minutes behind us. We had a bigger gap but some freshening breeze from behind brought them up closer.

 

The plan 22R has attained some great results in the last couple of nationals ahead of any of the Sprints. I spent some time on one (Midnight Rain) in many races and it feels pretty similar to the prod 22R. Differences have been tactical and some sail design nuances. MidRain has the shorter rudder blade which cavitates at high speed so that helps me in stronger stuff. (pimp ad - that blade is for sale). We usually easily beat any Sprints and Dash's, but remember **.

 

IMG_1172low.jpg

 

I have also raced on the plan standard 22 with swinging centreboard and it is roomier but definitely feels detuned. It could certainly do with some new rags for a valid comparison, but I feel the centreboards make a big difference in this comparison.

 

The older designs are still not far away in light stuff with the narrower floats working in their favour, but as it gets up past 10 knots the smiles on all faces on the 22R's grow like the gaps between the boats. Above 12 knots the 22R belies its size and as more of us get the boats set up and sailed well there will be more surprising results posted on the board.

 

The mast program has interrupted racing data collection a fair bit of course, and we are just having fun sailing and cruising the boat so much that racing has not been a burning priority. Our cruising grounds are just too tempting. This was a recent one from near the top of the the sandhills of Moreton Island looking south to the course of the Surf to City race. You will see my (ex) mast in lower picture.

 

Peter

 

IMG_20140915_130004low.jpg

Good to see some useful and constructive comments in the last few posts.

Peter you are far too generous in your comments about my Sprint. I have a rotating band of geriatric A Class sailors on my boat who help me fill in time by racing it while we search for the ideal nursing home.

I certainly agree with both yours and Ian's views that the 22r is already slightly faster than the Sprint in most conditions and will only get faster with rig refinement and crew familiarity of the design potential. I don't think there will ever be huge margins between them so that boat on boat racing will always be interesting.

I am purely a racer so have no views on the cruising issues. My idea of a cruise is sitting in a five star hotel near a decent bar and Thai restaurant watching boats float by. My Sprint can accomodate three with their swags, a frozen stew and a couple of bottles of rum for the odd overnight race.

While not being out and out racers the Sprint and 22r have enough performance to keep me interested and are probably not best suited to inexperienced cruisers.

The Sprint is a delight to own and race and has no real vices. There are limits in heavy breeze and I've had the odd handstand but been able to recover. The alloy foils are functional but I'd prefer better composite ones if the cost were not so high.

I'd also be delighted if someone gave me a 22r. A more modern take on a line of terrific designs.

BTW I have no affiliation with Corsair or Farrier and I'll be out racing on a 22 tomorrow.

Now Peter hurry up and nominate for next Saturday's race so we can see if 22r Boomless can beat the geriatric populated alloy foiled Sprint.

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With yesterday's race being a cruisy passage race in 10 knots I packed the GoPro and today did a quick edit for those here asking for details of some systems and relative performance data. One of my best crew Dave and his lady Ash were on board for our (Brisbane) QCYC Pearl Channel Race (apologies to the snowbound up in the north).

There was a reasonable group of monohulls starting 10 mins ahead of us and 3 multihulls including the F82R Redshift duelling with us.

I have left all the boring audio in the file, I get a bit sick of the same music on these clips. Fast forward any of the slow stuff. Apologies for filming quality, I just turned the camera on occasionally and most times it was in my hand while steering the boat.

 

Race summary based around the chunks of titled video:

- Redshift got a better start but in the short upwind we got a couple of good shifts to beat them around Fisheries Beacon.

- In a 10 mile screacher reach they used a bigger and fuller screacher to edge ahead and to leeward of us by nearly a minute. Towards the end of the leg it got up near 12 knots and we started pulling them back.

- After the Pearl Channel mark there was a 2 mile windward into a growing chop which slowed us down. They were definitely more stable through the swells and got us by more than a minute at the Rear Sea Lead.

- In the 10 mile downwind to Fisheries Beacon we were pleasantly surprised to be able to run deeper and faster, especially if it freshened a little. That leg was just fun, and with daggerboard all the way down things felt nice and even look pretty good on the video.

We finished about a minute ahead (could not see any monohulls behind us), but my feeling is still that the fresher the wind the faster this lovely little girl goes.

Peter

 

http://youtu.be/3gdApdSpsHg

 

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Nice video Peter.

We were out in the same area racing to the Pearl Marker from the North arriving a bit after you on the standard F22. In the long light windward of 8 to 10 knots we were a little faster than the big slugs but a bit lower in the flat water. Once we got to the channel and the bigger chop it was much worse and we lost ground. Waterline length and weight rules in those conditions. Around the mark and with kite up we left the slugs behind before setting the screecher for the long leg up the peninsular. Constant 12+ knots of boat speed in the 11 to 13 knots true wind. The boat felt comfortable and loved that angle and pressure. Monoslugs were left behind to enjoy the cruise.

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Thanks alot Wet. Great info for us in the USA who don't see many F22's, at least on the race course.

 

I have to admit I'm a little bit surprised. I had hopes and dreams that an F22r would be considerably faster than the Sprint.

 

Please keep us posted on your next encounters.

S'Knot is a bit faster than a Sprint Mk1 in the light and can be driven harder when windy. The production F-22R appears to be significantly lighter and thus should be significantly faster in all conditions. The OMR rating will indicate this.

 

Hey Mitch!

No 31's racing with us at the moment, but my old 27 was on the course for the Surf to City. He was behind the 82R but there is a lot of local knowledge in the first half of that drain race, and I had a great crew.

The green boat is certainly the one to beat, hoping to sail next to her one day soon.

Peter

I have never raced the inside course S2C but have sailed or motored that course dozens of times since 1990. Any result over the first half of that race indicates nothing about the boat's performance.

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Pescotts and Schionnings hardly class as "condomarans". If you get beaten by a Seawind....

Correct. We have some very capable 'cruising cats' racing right now in Aust. A 23' 'cruising tri' can't hope to compete in rough water. Conversley when the water is flat the tables are turned.

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Race summary based around the chunks of titled video:

- Redshift got a better start but in the short upwind we got a couple of good shifts to beat them around Fisheries Beacon.

- In a 10 mile screacher reach they used a bigger and fuller screacher to edge ahead and to leeward of us by nearly a minute. Towards the end of the leg it got up near 12 knots and we started pulling them back.

- After the Pearl Channel mark there was a 2 mile windward into a growing chop which slowed us down. They were definitely more stable through the swells and got us by more than a minute at the Rear Sea Lead.

- In the 10 mile downwind to Fisheries Beacon we were pleasantly surprised to be able to run deeper and faster, especially if it freshened a little. That leg was just fun, and with daggerboard all the way down things felt nice and even look pretty good on the video.

We finished about a minute ahead (could not see any monohulls behind us), but my feeling is still that the fresher the wind the faster this lovely little girl goes.

Peter

My take on that: Peter has demonstrated his ability over the years and is not slowing the F-22R down. Redshift is a particularly good example of a well built F-82R, perhaps the best around. To be duelling with Redshift indicates that the performance is comparable.

 

Redshift OMR 0.903 (would be Div 1 at Geelong), S'Knot (heavy plan built F-22R - 920 kg) OMR 0.854 (920 kg), Midnight Rain (light plan built F-22R - 820 kg) OMR 0.926, Triple A (Sprint Mk1 - 951 kg) OMR 0.877, Louie da Tri (Sprint Mk1 - 995 kg) OMR 0.880.

 

Predicting the production F-22R will weigh in well under 800 kg should come in around OMR 0.950, very much a Div 1 boat (OMR>0.9)

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WHAT?!?!?!

My cruising Boom in Div 1? Never.

All been on the OMR website sheet since before S2C. Weight is 871 kg with a bit of light galley stuff, bunk cushions, and generous safety gear, no reason to keep her light when the formula is so harsh. It seemed sensible to get both ends of the boat down near the water lol.

Rating with approx 240 kg typical crew is around .839 which is not too bad. In choppy upwind the 82R's will smash us around the park, but downwind we will get some of it back. Good times.

 

Peter

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WHAT?!?!?!

My cruising Boom in Div 1? Never.

All been on the OMR website sheet since before S2C. Weight is 871 kg with a bit of light galley stuff, bunk cushions, and generous safety gear, no reason to keep her light when the formula is so harsh. It seemed sensible to get both ends of the boat down near the water lol.

Rating with approx 240 kg typical crew is around .839 which is not too bad. In choppy upwind the 82R's will smash us around the park, but downwind we will get some of it back. Good times.

 

Peter

Sorry Peter, Div 1 is OMR without crew weight of 0.9 and above. Boom without crew is 0.908, actually for Geelong the cutoff was lowered to allow Airplay to race with Div 1. You will have to add a fair bit more weight to keep out of div 1 if that's what you want. 900 kg without crew will do the trick. Perhaps a big anchor and chain?

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you're making unicorns cry with that talk...

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The whole reason for having divisions is to have boats of relatively equal performance racing each other on the water. I think the OMR 0.9 cutoff works pretty well. Airplay was looking like being an anomaly but now I see the OMR without crew is 0.904

Surely Boom should be racing with Airplay, Redshift(.908), The Tribe(.925), Sirocco(.926), Sha-zaul(.908), Purple Haze(.919), Peregrine(.954), Oui Oui(.943), On Top(.923), Midnight Rain(.926), Hot Property(.910), Gumphy(.962) etc.

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Dear oh dear! Airplay 0.904 and people wonder why I keep thinking OMR is significantly flawed. Paul you've seen Airplay on a Monday night. It would leave all of the above in its wake in any conditions even without David R on board. And Gumphy (a lovely little F-22R) at 0.962 is just plain ridiculous IMHO.

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Am I missing something or do all of the boats mentioned need crew and that effects the OMR rather more on the smaller lighter ones

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Dear oh dear! Airplay 0.904 and people wonder why I keep thinking OMR is significantly flawed. Paul you've seen Airplay on a Monday night. It would leave all of the above in its wake in any conditions even without David R on board. And Gumphy (a lovely little F-22R) at 0.962 is just plain ridiculous IMHO.

I disagree. What happens on Pittwater is not a valid guide, however put David in Redshift on Pittwater and I would expect the same result. WM for Gumphy is listed at 710 kg, hence the 0.962 OMR. Is that the correct weight? 190 kg less than S'Knot? If it is I would suggest David and Linda could sail it to that rating.

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WHAT?!?!?!

My cruising Boom in Div 1? Never.

All been on the OMR website sheet since before S2C. Weight is 871 kg with a bit of light galley stuff, bunk cushions, and generous safety gear, no reason to keep her light when the formula is so harsh. It seemed sensible to get both ends of the boat down near the water lol.

Rating with approx 240 kg typical crew is around .839 which is not too bad. In choppy upwind the 82R's will smash us around the park, but downwind we will get some of it back. Good times.

 

Peter

Sorry Peter, Div 1 is OMR without crew weight of 0.9 and above. Boom without crew is 0.908, actually for Geelong the cutoff was lowered to allow Airplay to race with Div 1. You will have to add a fair bit more weight to keep out of div 1 if that's what you want. 900 kg without crew will do the trick. Perhaps a big anchor and chain?

 

Boat weights have always varied and it is up to the owner to optimise and make the boat comfortable to suit their local conditions and style of sailing. Unfortunately there have also been some weights that cannot be right due to load cells needing calibrating one year, and in another I can remember a big cat swinging in a 25 knot south-easter with the crane operator yellng numbers from a single cell, so those numbers were doubtful. Again in the absence of a functional national authority, MYCQ as the administrator of OMR is addressing this issue as we type.

 

Div 1/2 separations in the absence of a functional national authority have been determined by the organising clubs at each event, and I am not aware of any club up in sensible-land putting little boats in div 1, that would be just silly. For all our big events, the F22, F24, F25, F27, F28, F9 (Quickskips/Emarineworld), Sprint, Dash, F32 (Trinket) and even F33 (Pocahontas) have sensibly been put into Div 2. My recollection is that borderline case like Pocahontas was put in Div 1 for the lightwind nationals at Hervey Bay and it was tough for them in the back of that fleet. At Airlie nats they got into Div 2 and won the nats, but did not necessarily get line honours. Consensus was that they belonged in Div 2.

 

The only little boat that I can remember getting into Div 1 up here was Moving Finger/Dux Nutts, and that was sensible also.

 

Peter

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Dear oh dear! Airplay 0.904 and people wonder why I keep thinking OMR is significantly flawed. Paul you've seen Airplay on a Monday night. It would leave all of the above in its wake in any conditions even without David R on board. And Gumphy (a lovely little F-22R) at 0.962 is just plain ridiculous IMHO.

+6.02X10E23

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What's your take on Airplay then Peter? 9.2m tri, 2065kg without crew,beat Wilparina II across the line in every race. Should have been in Div 2?

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VMG its because the faster boats do longer courses which the slower divisions would DNF. The start line is also pretty restricted in some places (like Wangi) so having larger very fast Div1 boats getting thrown in with slower driftwood or condomarans would be a recipe for disaster.

 

The only contentious issue I see with divisions is those close to the cutoff boundary as your either the fastest in a pack or slowest and thus the thrill of the chase is somewhat lost ... I think handicaps are good for results but are a real wank when it comes to real racing as opposed to being faster on paper.

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WHAT?!?!?!

My cruising Boom in Div 1? Never.

All been on the OMR website sheet since before S2C. Weight is 871 kg with a bit of light galley stuff, bunk cushions, and generous safety gear, no reason to keep her light when the formula is so harsh. It seemed sensible to get both ends of the boat down near the water lol.

Rating with approx 240 kg typical crew is around .839 which is not too bad. In choppy upwind the 82R's will smash us around the park, but downwind we will get some of it back. Good times.

 

Peter

Sorry Peter, Div 1 is OMR without crew weight of 0.9 and above. Boom without crew is 0.908, actually for Geelong the cutoff was lowered to allow Airplay to race with Div 1. You will have to add a fair bit more weight to keep out of div 1 if that's what you want. 900 kg without crew will do the trick. Perhaps a big anchor and chain?

 

Boat weights have always varied and it is up to the owner to optimise and make the boat comfortable to suit their local conditions and style of sailing. Unfortunately there have also been some weights that cannot be right due to load cells needing calibrating one year, and in another I can remember a big cat swinging in a 25 knot south-easter with the crane operator yellng numbers from a single cell, so those numbers were doubtful. Again in the absence of a functional national authority, MYCQ as the administrator of OMR is addressing this issue as we type.

 

Div 1/2 separations in the absence of a functional national authority have been determined by the organising clubs at each event, and I am not aware of any club up in sensible-land putting little boats in div 1, that would be just silly. For all our big events, the F22, F24, F25, F27, F28, F9 (Quickskips/Emarineworld), Sprint, Dash, F32 (Trinket) and even F33 (Pocahontas) have sensibly been put into Div 2. My recollection is that borderline case like Pocahontas was put in Div 1 for the lightwind nationals at Hervey Bay and it was tough for them in the back of that fleet. At Airlie nats they got into Div 2 and won the nats, but did not necessarily get line honours. Consensus was that they belonged in Div 2.

 

The only little boat that I can remember getting into Div 1 up here was Moving Finger/Dux Nutts, and that was sensible also.

 

Peter

 

agree

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Why do you have 'Divisions'?

Surely better to have one overall result?

What Mark said. The speed difference between for example Mad Max (OMR 1.158) and a Tramp or a TrailerTri (OMR 0.658) would mean if they sailed the same course a 1 hour race for Mad Max would take the Tramp or Trailertri about 3 hours. That would be problematic if trying to run 2 or 3 races in one day.

Thus we often run 3 divisions with a long course for Div 1, a short course for Div 3 and something in between for Div 2, aiming for a 1 - 1.5 hour race.

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Paul, back to Airplay vs Gumphy. At 270kg crew weight, both boats would have a virtually equal OMR rating (869 vs 866). Would you seriously claim this would be a "fair" contest "equalising the two boats so the best sailors win" which is the common catchcry amongst OMR advocates. Airplay would hardly notice 270kg. And if there was any significant breeze, swell or chop, Airplay would be a speck on the horizon. BTW this is to say nothing negative about Gumphy or the way it is sailed. It's a fantastic boat and Neville sails it very well. You know my views. On the one hand there is OMR and on the other there is reality. Sometimes the two are at stark odds with each other.

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Then there's this scenario. Forecast is for a windy series. Need big boys on the boat but not much room on F-22R Gumphy so let's have 3 large lads for a total of 270kgs. As above, OMR is 0.866. Airplay adds 4 big lads totalling 360kg. Hmmmm OMR is now 0.858. Now that's got to be fair!

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'Bit of topic drift but...

 

How successful (ie has it been done) / possible is it to use OMR ratings to translate into a mixed fleet ie. monos ?

 

And..

 

If there was "a functional national authority " what would the likely cutoff figure be for divisions? (assuming adequate numbers of boats in each) ?

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Why do you have 'Divisions'?

Surely better to have one overall result?

What Mark said. The speed difference between for example Mad Max (OMR 1.158) and a Tramp or a TrailerTri (OMR 0.658) would mean if they sailed the same course a 1 hour race for Mad Max would take the Tramp or Trailertri about 3 hours. That would be problematic if trying to run 2 or 3 races in one day.

Thus we often run 3 divisions with a long course for Div 1, a short course for Div 3 and something in between for Div 2, aiming for a 1 - 1.5 hour race.

 

Why not run one course and do average lap timing?

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Why do you have 'Divisions'?

Surely better to have one overall result?

What Mark said. The speed difference between for example Mad Max (OMR 1.158) and a Tramp or a TrailerTri (OMR 0.658) would mean if they sailed the same course a 1 hour race for Mad Max would take the Tramp or Trailertri about 3 hours. That would be problematic if trying to run 2 or 3 races in one day.

Thus we often run 3 divisions with a long course for Div 1, a short course for Div 3 and something in between for Div 2, aiming for a 1 - 1.5 hour race.

Why not run one course and do average lap timing?
Most of the regattas have passage races as part of the program so average would not work. Also for cans races wind variations add inaccuracy for that method.

I found at Wangi the traditional Div 2 boats were fine with the longer courses. It was the slower Div 3 boats that needed the shorter course. The breakup is also influenced by the numbers in each speed group.

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'Bit of topic drift but...

 

How successful (ie has it been done) / possible is it to use OMR ratings to translate into a mixed fleet ie. monos ?

 

And..

 

If there was "a functional national authority " what would the likely cutoff figure be for divisions? (assuming adequate numbers of boats in each) ?

Trying to rate cats and monos fairly is a losing game. Assuming all boats have equal sailors, the weather and course type will decide whether a multi or mono will win.

That said, we have rated no problems, Ray Hobbs' schionning, as about the same as an irc of 1.085. A reachy passage race, ray beats monos. Windward leeward, depends on breeze and who is onboard. Uphill in waves, the monos win. We only race mixed fleet with multis and monos if we are short on numbers.

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Why do you have 'Divisions'?

Surely better to have one overall result?

What Mark said. The speed difference between for example Mad Max (OMR 1.158) and a Tramp or a TrailerTri (OMR 0.658) would mean if they sailed the same course a 1 hour race for Mad Max would take the Tramp or Trailertri about 3 hours. That would be problematic if trying to run 2 or 3 races in one day.

Thus we often run 3 divisions with a long course for Div 1, a short course for Div 3 and something in between for Div 2, aiming for a 1 - 1.5 hour race.

Why not run one course and do average lap timing?
Most of the regattas have passage races as part of the program so average would not work. Also for cans races wind variations add inaccuracy for that method.

I found at Wangi the traditional Div 2 boats were fine with the longer courses. It was the slower Div 3 boats that needed the shorter course. The breakup is also influenced by the numbers in each speed group.

 

At wangi div 2 did shorter courses.

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'Bit of topic drift but...

 

How successful (ie has it been done) / possible is it to use OMR ratings to translate into a mixed fleet ie. monos ?

 

And..

 

If there was "a functional national authority " what would the likely cutoff figure be for divisions? (assuming adequate numbers of boats in each) ?

Trying to rate cats and monos fairly is a losing game. Assuming all boats have equal sailors, the weather and course type will decide whether a multi or mono will win.

That said, we have rated no problems, Ray Hobbs' schionning, as about the same as an irc of 1.085. A reachy passage race, ray beats monos. Windward leeward, depends on breeze and who is onboard. Uphill in waves, the monos win. We only race mixed fleet with multis and monos if we are short on numbers.

 

Hard enough rating cats vs tris for the same reasons.

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Why do you have 'Divisions'?

Surely better to have one overall result?

 

What Mark said. The speed difference between for example Mad Max (OMR 1.158) and a Tramp or a TrailerTri (OMR 0.658) would mean if they sailed the same course a 1 hour race for Mad Max would take the Tramp or Trailertri about 3 hours. That would be problematic if trying to run 2 or 3 races in one day.

Thus we often run 3 divisions with a long course for Div 1, a short course for Div 3 and something in between for Div 2, aiming for a 1 - 1.5 hour race.

Why not run one course and do average lap timing?
Most of the regattas have passage races as part of the program so average would not work. Also for cans races wind variations add inaccuracy for that method.

I found at Wangi the traditional Div 2 boats were fine with the longer courses. It was the slower Div 3 boats that needed the shorter course. The breakup is also influenced by the numbers in each speed group.

At wangi div 2 did shorter courses.
No the traditional Div 3 boats like tramps etc did shorter courses. The traditional Div 2 boats like Sprints, F22, F28 etc did the longer courses in the same start and course as the Div 1 traditional boats. They were called Div 1 at Wangi but haven't been in the past.

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Boat weights have always varied and it is up to the owner to optimise and make the boat comfortable to suit their local conditions and style of sailing. Unfortunately there have also been some weights that cannot be right due to load cells needing calibrating one year, and in another I can remember a big cat swinging in a 25 knot south-easter with the crane operator yellng numbers from a single cell, so those numbers were doubtful. Again in the absence of a functional national authority, MYCQ as the administrator of OMR is addressing this issue as we type.

 

Div 1/2 separations in the absence of a functional national authority have been determined by the organising clubs at each event, and I am not aware of any club up in sensible-land putting little boats in div 1, that would be just silly. For all our big events, the F22, F24, F25, F27, F28, F9 (Quickskips/Emarineworld), Sprint, Dash, F32 (Trinket) and even F33 (Pocahontas) have sensibly been put into Div 2. My recollection is that borderline case like Pocahontas was put in Div 1 for the lightwind nationals at Hervey Bay and it was tough for them in the back of that fleet. At Airlie nats they got into Div 2 and won the nats, but did not necessarily get line honours. Consensus was that they belonged in Div 2.

 

The only little boat that I can remember getting into Div 1 up here was Moving Finger/Dux Nutts, and that was sensible also.

 

Peter

 

What is a 'little boat'? F9 (31'), F31, F32, F33 little boats? compared to Bare Essentials (28'10") Hot Vindaloo (28') and Two Tribes (30'4"). Would you put Insulation Solutions (27', OMR 1.238) in Div 2?

 

You can't divide it on big vs little, it only makes sense on fast vs not so fast.

 

OMR 0.9 has been used successfully at Wangi and Geelong. Not sure what it was at Pt Lincoln.

 

If you put it up to 0.910 you would put Airplay into Div 2 which would make nobody happy.

 

What's the answer? Can't use LOA, can't use OMR. Just leave it up to the entrants to nominate which division they would like to enter?

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GS that is such a very rare commodity ;)

 

I agree that its problematic to fairly rate different designs (hence one design rules) but what I was after was a conversion factor/scale/formula from OMR to whatever the equivalent standard mono rating would be (ie IRC) which appears to be non existent at this point?

 

I get the whole "depends on the day" issue (waves versus flat, reach versus beat) but to my eye handicaps are a comparison of potential speed under all conditions, ie boat A that has a polar diagram X versus boat B the has a polar Y irrespective of design or number of hulls. Area under the graph perhaps or weighted values depending on which quadrant is stronger/weaker (run versus beat etc)

Ins't OMR with all its measurements of boat weights and sail area etc basically trying to predict what a perfectly sailed boats potential would be? ie guesstimates of what its polar would look like.

 

I don't think its easy but dismiss that its impossible...I substitute your reality and insert my own! :P

 

My interest lays with passage/longer style races (like the HCW24hr etc) so the vagaries of course and wind direction/strength are somewhat canceled compared to short round the cans style races.

 

Food for thought......

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It is possible with multiple number handicaps. Not possible with single number, although you can make an approximation.

Omr/irc = 783/1096 = 0.7144

Anyone care to improve on this with some other data points, pairs of boats with an irc and omr that are close enough on the race course?

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GS that is such a very rare commodity ;)

 

I agree that its problematic to fairly rate different designs (hence one design rules) but what I was after was a conversion factor/scale/formula from OMR to whatever the equivalent standard mono rating would be (ie IRC) which appears to be non existent at this point?

 

I get the whole "depends on the day" issue (waves versus flat, reach versus beat) but to my eye handicaps are a comparison of potential speed under all conditions, ie boat A that has a polar diagram X versus boat B the has a polar Y irrespective of design or number of hulls. Area under the graph perhaps or weighted values depending on which quadrant is stronger/weaker (run versus beat etc)

Ins't OMR with all its measurements of boat weights and sail area etc basically trying to predict what a perfectly sailed boats potential would be? ie guesstimates of what its polar would look like.

 

I don't think its easy but dismiss that its impossible...I substitute your reality and insert my own! :P

 

My interest lays with passage/longer style races (like the HCW24hr etc) so the vagaries of course and wind direction/strength are somewhat canceled compared to short round the cans style races.

 

Food for thought......

It's so much more than waves versus flat, reach versus beat. It's the radical differences in the polars with wind strength.

 

An extreme example imagine trying to rate a foiling moth vs a foiling laser. a moth will foil in 5 kts? a laser needs 20 kts?

 

Compare Two Tribes (30' cat OMR 1.085), Morticia (30' Tri OMR 1.085) and a Mumm 30.

Upwind in 5 knots all 3 will sail at the same VMG and get to the top mark together.

In 8 knots the Tri will get there first, the cat and keeler still together.

10 knots and TT will hull fly upwind and be up there with the tri while the Mumm reached hull speed 7.5 kts?) at 8 knots of windspeed and can go no faster upwind.

 

In 15 knots TT and Morticia will go upwind at 13, while the Mumm is still doing 7.5

Downwind the differences are even greater. Sure the Mumm can plane downwind given enough breeze but if the multihulls can sail downwind on one hull they can do multiples of windspeed.

Then throw in the 'extremes' of keelboats, the traditional long keeler and the 30' ballasted skiff. Then add the extremes of multihulls, GC32 foiling cat and say the Seawind 1000.

 

Every boat would need a range of ratings for each 3 knots of windspeed and for upwind vs down for each windspeed.

Then try to work out how to apply those ratings to each race.

 

Rating works well for similar boats, Mad Max vs Two Tribes, Morticia vs Bare Essentials, F-22R vs Corsair Sprint/Dash, F31 vs Grainger MTB 920, and particularly well for when a boat is modified such as adding more sail area or more weight. Crew weight is a problem as heavy crew is 'rewarded' with a lower rating yet can be advantageous in stronger wind.

 

Rating radically different designs such as traditional long keeler vs a foiling cat and radically different LOA such as 20' vs 70' is a huge challenge.

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Last weekend the guys on Midnight Rain, the plan built F-22R. had a decent blast in from Scarborough to Bribie Island, northern limits of Moreton Bay.

 

 

http://youtu.be/W33QstBCoDc

 

 

Very cool! The leeward ama seems to be holding up it's end of the bargain quite well. What was their top speed on that reach?

 

And a couple of noob questions:

What is the teak-ish looking cockpit sole made from?

What do you call the shroud tensioning purchase that runs from the shroud to the rear beams? Is that adjusted after every tack?

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Last weekend the guys on Midnight Rain, the plan built F-22R. had a decent blast in from Scarborough to Bribie Island, northern limits of Moreton Bay.

 

 

http://youtu.be/W33QstBCoDc

 

 

Very cool! The leeward ama seems to be holding up it's end of the bargain quite well. What was their top speed on that reach?

 

And a couple of noob questions:

What is the teak-ish looking cockpit sole made from?

What do you call the shroud tensioning purchase that runs from the shroud to the rear beams? Is that adjusted after every tack?

 

 

Not sure what the cockpit veneer is - could be the real thing, or an imitation - I saw this boat while it was being built, but did not take a close look at the floor - too many other things to see:

post-18231-0-81623700-1425063645_thumb.jpg

This was also one of the first cuddly cabin versions with a larger cockpit, but the interior is still quite roomy:

post-18231-0-88510800-1425063672_thumb.jpg

The production version will be a little roomier again.

The shroud tensioning purchase is called the shroud tensioner, and there is no need to adjust every tack, unless it is restricting mast rotation too much. It is just there to tension the rig when needed, and is optional.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Paxfish its the real deal..solid teak. I asked the builder (Noosa Marine) as I was also interested in the look as I have some fake stuff laying around and was thinking of blinging my TT. It is quite heavy though.

 

Can't remember how thick it is but definitely more than a thin veneer.

 

Cheers

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Paxfish its the real deal..solid teak. I asked the builder (Noosa Marine) as I was also interested in the look as I have some fake stuff laying around and was thinking of blinging my TT. It is quite heavy though.

 

Can't remember how thick it is but definitely more than a thin veneer.

 

Cheers

 

Looks like it is around 6mm thick. A bit heavy for me, but it looks good :

 

post-18231-0-08623200-1425078591_thumb.jpg

Latest F-22 production update with folding and mast lowering videos can now also be seen at:

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News4/FM-Factory2014.html

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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I have to say that sailing on that boat (Mid Rain) with the teak deck in summer is a PITF (pain in the feet). It gets VERY hot and the heat then buckles the teak with big voids that fill with water.

It does look nice though, but if I am adding weight to a boat I like to gain some comfort as well.

Peter

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Yeah they are one of the best with great reputation from windsurfing to fishing rods as well as the sailing classes, but nothing as long as what we want.

There is a high performance builder now on the job.

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Sknot has a c-tech carbon mast and we found Alex interested and very easy to deal with. The mast is now about 3 years old and has been great. We may not love sailing Sknot in big seas and winds but we do.

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WHAT?!?!?!

My cruising Boom in Div 1? Never.

All been on the OMR website sheet since before S2C. Weight is 871 kg with a bit of light galley stuff, bunk cushions, and generous safety gear, no reason to keep her light when the formula is so harsh. It seemed sensible to get both ends of the boat down near the water lol.

Rating with approx 240 kg typical crew is around .839 which is not too bad. In choppy upwind the 82R's will smash us around the park, but downwind we will get some of it back. Good times.

 

Peter

Sorry Peter, Div 1 is OMR without crew weight of 0.9 and above. Boom without crew is 0.908, actually for Geelong the cutoff was lowered to allow Airplay to race with Div 1. You will have to add a fair bit more weight to keep out of div 1 if that's what you want. 900 kg without crew will do the trick. Perhaps a big anchor and chain?

Seems the rule treats lighter boats harshly in general. The airplay should never rate below .950 IMO just from looking at the boat with no information. That's an issue with the rule for sure. More weight is often advantageous on the wind..... Trilogy falls into a similar bucket. 2 ton and rates low. I've had a recent study of the rule and it seems to strongly encourage heavy boats with small spinnakers / screeches. The F22 should not be in Div one.

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WHAT?!?!?!

My cruising Boom in Div 1? Never.

All been on the OMR website sheet since before S2C. Weight is 871 kg with a bit of light galley stuff, bunk cushions, and generous safety gear, no reason to keep her light when the formula is so harsh. It seemed sensible to get both ends of the boat down near the water lol.

Rating with approx 240 kg typical crew is around .839 which is not too bad. In choppy upwind the 82R's will smash us around the park, but downwind we will get some of it back. Good times.

 

Peter

Sorry Peter, Div 1 is OMR without crew weight of 0.9 and above. Boom without crew is 0.908, actually for Geelong the cutoff was lowered to allow Airplay to race with Div 1. You will have to add a fair bit more weight to keep out of div 1 if that's what you want. 900 kg without crew will do the trick. Perhaps a big anchor and chain?
Seems the rule treats lighter boats harshly in general. The airplay should never rate below .950 IMO just from looking at the boat with no information. That's an issue with the rule for sure. More weight is often advantageous on the wind..... Trilogy falls into a similar bucket. 2 ton and rates low. I've had a recent study of the rule and it seems to strongly encourage heavy boats with small spinnakers / screeches. The F22 should not be in Div one.

I disagree, the last 3 div 1 nationals have been won by the lightest 30 footers in the fleet. IC before that is not at the top end of the weight range either.

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I was fortunate enough to be invited on the other production F-22R #223 on Moreton Bay yesterday.

 

Ken and Ron Godwin are a keen father/son combination successful in dinghy racing, and will have to be watched on the race course. With only safety gear inside the boat, it felt lighter than mine, and the hard black thing above my head had me wondering why my boat is called Boom! and this boat is still unnamed?

The fellas did a lot of the finishing work themselves, and it looks and sails great. The kiwi-grip they used has some of my knuckles in it, a very neat job.

 

The sails are panelled cruiselam and looked pretty good.

 

In a splendid screacher ride from out in the middle of the bay, the boat got to 14.5 knots in wind that rarely got above 10. I was particularly interested in the way the speed jumped when I shifted behind the skipper to handle the mainsheet and camera. The centre hull pulled down at the back and leeward float developed dynamic lift from the flat underneath sections to get nice pace in fairly flat water. The hum you can hear is the next job needed on the trailing edge of the rudder.

 

Peter H

 

 

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I was fortunate enough to be invited on the other production F-22R #223 on Moreton Bay yesterday.

 

Ken and Ron Godwin are a keen father/son combination successful in dinghy racing, and will have to be watched on the race course. With only safety gear inside the boat, it felt lighter than mine, and the hard black thing above my head had me wondering why my boat is called Boom! and this boat is still unnamed?

The fellas did a lot of the finishing work themselves, and it looks and sails great. The kiwi-grip they used has some of my knuckles in it, a very neat job.

 

The sails are panelled cruiselam and looked pretty good.

 

In a splendid screacher ride from out in the middle of the bay, the boat got to 14.5 knots in wind that rarely got above 10. I was particularly interested in the way the speed jumped when I shifted behind the skipper to handle the mainsheet and camera. The centre hull pulled down at the back and leeward float developed dynamic lift from the flat underneath sections to get nice pace in fairly flat water. The hum you can hear is the next job needed on the trailing edge of the rudder.

 

Peter H

 

 

[/size][/color]

Nice. And much better with a boom.

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I was fortunate enough to be invited on the other production F-22R #223 on Moreton Bay yesterday.

 

Ken and Ron Godwin are a keen father/son combination successful in dinghy racing, and will have to be watched on the race course. With only safety gear inside the boat, it felt lighter than mine, and the hard black thing above my head had me wondering why my boat is called Boom! and this boat is still unnamed?

The fellas did a lot of the finishing work themselves, and it looks and sails great. The kiwi-grip they used has some of my knuckles in it, a very neat job.

 

The sails are panelled cruiselam and looked pretty good.

 

In a splendid screacher ride from out in the middle of the bay, the boat got to 14.5 knots in wind that rarely got above 10. I was particularly interested in the way the speed jumped when I shifted behind the skipper to handle the mainsheet and camera. The centre hull pulled down at the back and leeward float developed dynamic lift from the flat underneath sections to get nice pace in fairly flat water. The hum you can hear is the next job needed on the trailing edge of the rudder.

 

Peter H

 

 

Thanks Peter - back on topic and nice video, awesome boat.

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On the video above the screecher sheeting point is on the aft beam while on the Midnight Rain video the spin sheeting point is on the ama; is there a preference depending on whether you're using a kite or a screecher?

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Well noted, the kite tends to work well on the ama for deeper angles although it can be moved in to a beam block for flat kites. It has to be outside and clear the shroud however.

The screacher works well in closer, and on the beam straps you gain the luxury of adjustable angle. The smaller screacher we have been trialling surprisingly sheets directly to the cabin winch for upwind work, although overwraps need to be avoided.

 

Peter

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Last weekend the guys on Midnight Rain, the plan built F-22R. had a decent blast in from Scarborough to Bribie Island, northern limits of Moreton Bay.

 

 

http://youtu.be/W33QstBCoDc

 

 

Very cool! The leeward ama seems to be holding up it's end of the bargain quite well. What was their top speed on that reach?

 

And a couple of noob questions:

What is the teak-ish looking cockpit sole made from?

What do you call the shroud tensioning purchase that runs from the shroud to the rear beams? Is that adjusted after every tack?

 

 

Not sure what the cockpit veneer is - could be the real thing, or an imitation - I saw this boat while it was being built, but did not take a close look at the floor - too many other things to see:

attachicon.gifF-22Noosa2.jpg

This was also one of the first cuddly cabin versions with a larger cockpit, but the interior is still quite roomy:

attachicon.gifF-22WesleyInterior.jpg

The production version will be a little roomier again.

The shroud tensioning purchase is called the shroud tensioner, and there is no need to adjust every tack, unless it is restricting mast rotation too much. It is just there to tension the rig when needed, and is optional.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

 

 

Hi Ian and all,

 

I have been wondering when the Cuddy Cabin version was scheduled to start production. Is there a deck mould?

 

Any news on this front? I figure this version would be lighter and maybe cost less.

 

Cheers,

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I found that same thing on the F33. Even stranger, fastest speed upwind is everyone sitting on the rear leeward beam. Gets the main hull light and takes the rocker drag out of the equation.

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Last weekend the guys on Midnight Rain, the plan built F-22R. had a decent blast in from Scarborough to Bribie Island, northern limits of Moreton Bay.

 

 

http://youtu.be/W33QstBCoDc

 

 

Very cool! The leeward ama seems to be holding up it's end of the bargain quite well. What was their top speed on that reach?

 

And a couple of noob questions:

What is the teak-ish looking cockpit sole made from?

What do you call the shroud tensioning purchase that runs from the shroud to the rear beams? Is that adjusted after every tack?

 

 

Not sure what the cockpit veneer is - could be the real thing, or an imitation - I saw this boat while it was being built, but did not take a close look at the floor - too many other things to see:

attachicon.gifF-22Noosa2.jpg

This was also one of the first cuddly cabin versions with a larger cockpit, but the interior is still quite roomy:

attachicon.gifF-22WesleyInterior.jpg

The production version will be a little roomier again.

The shroud tensioning purchase is called the shroud tensioner, and there is no need to adjust every tack, unless it is restricting mast rotation too much. It is just there to tension the rig when needed, and is optional.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

 

 

Hi Ian and all,

 

I have been wondering when the Cuddy Cabin version was scheduled to start production. Is there a deck mould?

 

Any news on this front? I figure this version would be lighter and maybe cost less.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Once the current standard boat is going out the door on a regular basis, then we will look at the cuddy cabin. One thing at a time at this stage, and we do need a lot of standard boats right now.

 

The standard boat also has a very large cockpit, so it is a good alternative choice at present. Another update will be going up this weekend, with more new developments.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work.

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Hi Ian and all,

 

I have been wondering when the Cuddy Cabin version was scheduled to start production. Is there a deck mould?

 

Any news on this front? I figure this version would be lighter and maybe cost less.

 

Cheers,

 

Is he figuring correct? Will the Cuddy Cabin version be lighter and cheaper?

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By the time it's actually available it will overpriced & outdated.

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By the time it's actually available it will overpriced & outdated.

 

You are seeming to be "Mr Positive" today. :blink:

 

It is easy to criticise and hard to do. I believe Ian has proved himself over the years with how his designs address targeted market needs.

 

Safe and happy sailing,

 

Fish

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By the time it's actually available it will overpriced & outdated.

Overpriced?

If it is overpriced it won't sell.

If it is underpriced they won't be able to meet demand.

If it is priced just right they will just meet demand.

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it was Monday somewhere

:-)

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I should have said over budget. I'm not knocking Ian or his boats, BUT at the rate the production F22 is rolling out ( & the price increases over time ) you'll be waiting a very very very long time for your production cuddy version to be on the water. This thread started nearly 4 years ago.

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How much simpler the cuddy? Less interior, but a new cockpit and deck and deck layout required. A bit of tooling...

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Can not see how the cuddy will be lighter or cheaper, still have roughly the same amount of deck, just less air in the cabin

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I should have said over budget. I'm not knocking Ian or his boats, BUT at the rate the production F22 is rolling out ( & the price increases over time ) you'll be waiting a very very very long time for your production cuddy version to be on the water. This thread started nearly 4 years ago.

Yes 4 years ago and well into the story by then. What year were the original plans released?

What year did Ian Farrier tell us he was designing an entry level folding tri?

 

The result coming out of the factory now is brilliant as far as I can tell - I have not seen one 'in the flesh' yet. Great boat, will sell well but it is a long long way from entry level.

 

Corsair's Pulse may be 'it' but I think that may be a bit too 'flash' and a bit to expensive to be truly entry level.

 

The F22 is a 23' boat. Ian's original entry level was a 18' boat.

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By the time it's actually available it will overpriced & outdated.

 

We used to get similar criticism of the F-27, particularly in the early days while we struggled to build 1 or 2 a year. However, then we swamped the critics with 2 boats every week. Also claimed to be overpriced, but then many buyers found they could sell them later for what they paid, or more.

 

Twenty five years later, those original molds are still being used to build boats, so still not outdated, and the F-22 is far more advanced than the F-27 ever was.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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How much simpler the cuddy? Less interior, but a new cockpit and deck and deck layout required. A bit of tooling...

Having sailed the plan built cuddy and now the production full cabin extensively, I don't see any reason to want the cuddy.

The cockpit area for crew or bikini girls on Boom! is HUGE.

 

Peter

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