ianlf

F-22 Update

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Hi nuddy,

Do you mean like a windsurfer boom?

thanks but I was hoping to simplify the self tacker, and a jib boom seems a bit over the top, but good idea

Yes, what could be simpler than that? Much simpler than having a track. And to get the same effect you would need a track curved in 2 planes and barber haulers for reaching and running. Also eliminates the problem with the daggerboard. It would certainly be the way I would go if I wanted a self tacker. However I hate self tackers. Even though I use a non overlapping Jib I prefer to sheet out a little as I go through a tack (both sails) and sheet on as I accelerate. Something I learned from dinghy sailing.

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I agree with you re easing the sails on tacking, but I do a lot of singlehanding, so it's nice to sail without having to alter sheets.

Your idea would be easy to try.

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The 22 (Midnight Rain) we sailed in Airlie and a few races beforehand has the standard jib and 2:1 sheets and the last thing I would do is to ruin that arrangement with the deck junk of a self tacker. We sailed with three crew, youngest a sprightly 54 yr old, and we were actually laughing through the tacks as they were so easy. We gained time turning corners, and it was very rare to put the jib sheet on a winch. If the new sheet was pulled in just before the tack and then hardened manually coming out of the tack, things were sweet.

 

Rob from GM tried a jib boom for a while on a Sprint. Ahead of its time actually , as it was just a stiff full length bottom batten like on Ian's new mainsail.

 

As for the boomless sheeting, I have to admit some reservations but am keen to have a boat with one less piece of junk flying around. For cruising it seems a no-brainer and I believe it will convert those guys fast. especially with the roller furling which was the single biggest improvement to my family's love of cruising and racing our F27. For racing, the DDW in some of our drain races like Bay to Bay might need a main tweaker on the light days. Perhaps a shockcorded hook tensioned under the float rails to deploy after each gybe? Certainly a small price to pay for this innovation.

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The 22 (Midnight Rain) we sailed in Airlie and a few races beforehand has the standard jib and 2:1 sheets and the last thing I would do is to ruin that arrangement with the deck junk of a self tacker. We sailed with three crew, youngest a sprightly 54 yr old, and we were actually laughing through the tacks as they were so easy. We gained time turning corners, and it was very rare to put the jib sheet on a winch. If the new sheet was pulled in just before the tack and then hardened manually coming out of the tack, things were sweet.

 

Rob from GM tried a jib boom for a while on a Sprint. Ahead of its time actually , as it was just a stiff full length bottom batten like on Ian's new mainsail.

 

As for the boomless sheeting, I have to admit some reservations but am keen to have a boat with one less piece of junk flying around. For cruising it seems a no-brainer and I believe it will convert those guys fast. especially with the roller furling which was the single biggest improvement to my family's love of cruising and racing our F27. For racing, the DDW in some of our drain races like Bay to Bay might need a main tweaker on the light days. Perhaps a shockcorded hook tensioned under the float rails to deploy after each gybe? Certainly a small price to pay for this innovation.

Realy plywoody less than 8 knts, 2 to 1 and you still managed without a winch?

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The 22 (Midnight Rain) we sailed in Airlie and a few races beforehand has the standard jib and 2:1 sheets and the last thing I would do is to ruin that arrangement with the deck junk of a self tacker. We sailed with three crew, youngest a sprightly 54 yr old, and we were actually laughing through the tacks as they were so easy. We gained time turning corners, and it was very rare to put the jib sheet on a winch. If the new sheet was pulled in just before the tack and then hardened manually coming out of the tack, things were sweet.

 

Rob from GM tried a jib boom for a while on a Sprint. Ahead of its time actually , as it was just a stiff full length bottom batten like on Ian's new mainsail.

 

As for the boomless sheeting, I have to admit some reservations but am keen to have a boat with one less piece of junk flying around. For cruising it seems a no-brainer and I believe it will convert those guys fast. especially with the roller furling which was the single biggest improvement to my family's love of cruising and racing our F27. For racing, the DDW in some of our drain races like Bay to Bay might need a main tweaker on the light days. Perhaps a shockcorded hook tensioned under the float rails to deploy after each gybe? Certainly a small price to pay for this innovation.

Realy plywoody less than 8 knts, 2 to 1 and you still managed without a winch?

That was the young guy, I had the main, but the boom got in my way on that model.

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On my F242 the mainsheet is used alot to tighten the forestay, helped by the pull of the mainsheet on the boom. Is this lost to an extent because the pull of the mainsheet is at a different angle without a boom?

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On my F242 the mainsheet is used alot to tighten the forestay, helped by the pull of the mainsheet on the boom. Is this lost to an extent because the pull of the mainsheet is at a different angle without a boom?

No not at all. When the boom is there it just transfers the force to to the clew of the main. Without a boom the force goes directly to the clew.

Without a boom, or with a boom perfectly aligned (no forward push) there will be slightly less force required on the main sheet for the same forestry tension.

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On my F242 the mainsheet is used alot to tighten the forestay, helped by the pull of the mainsheet on the boom. Is this lost to an extent because the pull of the mainsheet is at a different angle without a boom?

 

Depends. If the mainsail takes the correct shape, the distribution of stress within the sail is correct and whether this is achieved by a more or less vertically oriented mainsheet plus boom, or angled mainsheet alone is irrelevant. However, if you tend to extreme oversheeting of the main in the interest of forestay tension, you will pay a higher price with the boomless setup due to a main that is flatter as well as closed in the leech.

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Thanks Nuddy and diggler.

Iguess my question is, have others with boomless mains found they can't get enough forestay tension. (Thinking now of running the screacher upwind in the light as an example)

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my question is, have others with boomless mains found they can't get enough forestay tension. (Thinking now of running the screacher upwind in the light as an example)

 

The mainsail can act like a backstay with or without a boom if you pull it on tight enough.

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A question. Does the F22 have a rotating mast ? If so and I hope it would have, then the mast rotation will be seriously compromised by the rearward pull of the traveller set behind the rear of the sail.

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A question. Does the F22 have a rotating mast ? If so and I hope it would have, then the mast rotation will be seriously compromised by the rearward pull of the traveller set behind the rear of the sail.

Obviously you have not been following the thread. The F22 has a wing shaped carbon fibre rotating mast that significantly contributes to the overall foil of the main. The boom less version obviously has the rotation controlled independent of the boom.

The mainsheet angle is adjusted at the clew to give the desired sail shape. The rotation is adjusted at the base of the mast to give the desired overall foil shape.

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He brings up a valid point. Most (at least on small boats) rotating mast rely on force from the boom to push them off centre, hense you have the main sheet pulling the boom toward the mast. I guess without a boom you can't do this, so do you have to trim the mast to an angle rather tham limiting it? I'm sure there is a nice simple way that this has been set up, but I can't quite think of it off the top of my head.

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He brings up a valid point. Most (at least on small boats) rotating mast rely on force from the boom to push them off centre, hense you have the main sheet pulling the boom toward the mast. I guess without a boom you can't do this, so do you have to trim the mast to an angle rather tham limiting it? I'm sure there is a nice simple way that this has been set up, but I can't quite think of it off the top of my head.

On the F25C, which also has a boomless main, the mast rotates adequately on it's own for upwind work. For reaching or running, it is necessary to rig some form of positive madt rotator. This is a small price to pay for all the benefits that the boomless configuration offers, IMHO.

 

............your mileage may vary.

 

-MH

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He brings up a valid point. Most (at least on small boats) rotating mast rely on force from the boom to push them off centre, hense you have the main sheet pulling the boom toward the mast. I guess without a boom you can't do this, so do you have to trim the mast to an angle rather tham limiting it? I'm sure there is a nice simple way that this has been set up, but I can't quite think of it off the top of my head.

On the F25C, which also has a boomless main, the mast rotates adequately on it's own for upwind work. For reaching or running, it is necessary to rig some form of positive madt rotator. This is a small price to pay for all the benefits that the boomless configuration offers, IMHO.

............your mileage may vary.

-MH

On my first cat, a SeaWind 24, I had a lot of boom thrust which forced rotation. It had to be controlled and connecting to the boom was in no way adequate. Next cat I put together myself and had very little boom thrust, set it up from the start with full control over the rotation. 3rd cat had a non rotating mast. Then I got my sprint. It has a little boom thrust and rotation control to the boom. Terrible system. Set and forget, so the rotation is never right for the conditions and in light wind whenever a power boat goes past the whole thing slams about one side to the other, shaking the wind out of the sails and shock loading everything in the rig. I have to get the crew to hand hold the spanner.

On my new to me 30' cat the gooseneck is on the nain crossbeam, not on the mast. Thus the effect on rotation is the same as boomless, that is none. The rotation is properly controlled and adjusted frequently to give what we think is the best foil shape for the wind strength and direction. It does not move at all over waves etc. as it is locked in.

I think this is the best way to go whether the rig has a boom or not, when the gooseneck is on the mast or not.

It is good for the skipper/ crew to have control of the foil shape etc. If you don't think so you should sail a Laser.

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Nacra 5.8 s don't have a boom and have a rotating mast , and if the clew is set up in the right place on the clew board you don't have to touch the rotation upwind , the mast just sets automatically . Downwind the mast rotation needs to be induced ,with manual control of the spanner , or else in lighter wind the mast flaps around .The leech tension also stands up fine with the boomless rig.

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Nacra 5.8 s don't have a boom and have a rotating mast , and if the clew is set up in the right place on the clew board you don't have to touch the rotation upwind , the mast just sets automatically . Downwind the mast rotation needs to be induced ,with manual control of the spanner , or else in lighter wind the mast flaps around .The leech tension also stands up fine with the boomless rig.

A friend of mine used to sail NACRAs and always had rotation control in hand when on the wire. He said he could control hull flying on rotation control. So I suggest that sure you don't HAVE to touch the rotation upwind, but if you don't, you are not sailing as fast as you can.

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Just throwing this out there, if anyone is interested in a one-design fleet of these boats in Eastern Long Island Sound please send me a PM or just reply on the forum. I like the looks of this boat and a local fleet could just push me over the edge.

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Nacra 5.8 s don't have a boom and have a rotating mast , and if the clew is set up in the right place on the clew board you don't have to touch the rotation upwind , the mast just sets automatically . Downwind the mast rotation needs to be induced ,with manual control of the spanner , or else in lighter wind the mast flaps around .The leech tension also stands up fine with the boomless rig.

A friend of mine used to sail NACRAs and always had rotation control in hand when on the wire. He said he could control hull flying on rotation control. So I suggest that sure you don't HAVE to touch the rotation upwind, but if you don't, you are not sailing as fast as you can.

If the boat is set up properly you don't have to touch the rotation going upwind unless it's blowing shitloads , then you induce rotation using the spanner and crank the downhaul to bend the mast and flatten the main , when the wind gets up you back off the diamonds to let the mast bend.

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On my F242 the mainsheet is used alot to tighten the forestay, helped by the pull of the mainsheet on the boom. Is this lost to an extent because the pull of the mainsheet is at a different angle without a boom?

Yes.

 

What am i going to attach my Lazy Jacks to when i want to go cruising??? Do i have to take the sail off every time i drop it?

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If the boat is set up properly you don't have to touch the rotation going upwind unless it's blowing shitloads , then you induce rotation using the spanner and crank the downhaul to bend the mast and flatten the main , when the wind gets up you back off the diamonds to let the mast bend.

Are you sure you add more rotation, most masts are stronger when rotated more ( hence why most beach cats rotate fully out when under spinny ) and when the wind gets up, its more usual to decrease rotation so that the mast top will bend under downhaul to allow the head of the sail to fall away in the larger puffs.

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On my F242 the mainsheet is used alot to tighten the forestay, helped by the pull of the mainsheet on the boom. Is this lost to an extent because the pull of the mainsheet is at a different angle without a boom?

Yes.

 

What am i going to attach my Lazy Jacks to when i want to go cruising??? Do i have to take the sail off every time i drop it?

 

You don't need the complication of lazy jacks on this size boat, as the F-22's unique roller furling boomless main is much easier and quicker. The sail will come down as fast as you can roll it up. No folds, no lines flapping in the breeze.

 

post-18231-0-71347100-1380578338_thumb.jpg

 

Quick, neat, and simple.

 

One can see how quickly a similar roller furling F-27 main can be rolled up on:

 

http://www.farriermarine.com/videos/Mexico.mov (about 3/4 the way through)

 

It really does work as easily as that.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

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On my F242 the mainsheet is used alot to tighten the forestay, helped by the pull of the mainsheet on the boom. Is this lost to an extent because the pull of the mainsheet is at a different angle without a boom?

Yes.

 

What am i going to attach my Lazy Jacks to when i want to go cruising??? Do i have to take the sail off every time i drop it?

 

You don't need the complication of lazy jacks on this size boat, as the F-22's unique roller furling boomless main is much easier and quicker. The sail will come down as fast as you can roll it up. No folds, no lines flapping in the breeze.

 

attachicon.gifFurling-Main.jpg

 

Quick, neat, and simple.

 

One can see how quickly a similar roller furling F-27 main can be rolled up on:

 

http://www.farriermarine.com/videos/Mexico.mov (about 3/4 the way through)

 

It really does work as easily as that.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

Excuse my ignorance but does't the boat in the video you linked have a boom??

 

Cant really see how a rolling boomless main is going to work the same way. What does the topping lift attach to? What do you do with the mainsheet?

 

Eric, sometimes you want to drop your mainsail, you know, when you want to stop and stuff like that.

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Checked the photos of the launch. The boat looks great. The sail looks like it does have a boom of sorts. Certainly a very stiff bottom batten.

 

Wish it had a proper boom and traveller tho. Tacking and gybing sails is hard enough, tacking and gybing the mast is completely unnecessary.

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On my F242 the mainsheet is used alot to tighten the forestay, helped by the pull of the mainsheet on the boom. Is this lost to an extent because the pull of the mainsheet is at a different angle without a boom?

Yes.

 

What am i going to attach my Lazy Jacks to when i want to go cruising??? Do i have to take the sail off every time i drop it?

 

You don't need the complication of lazy jacks on this size boat, as the F-22's unique roller furling boomless main is much easier and quicker. The sail will come down as fast as you can roll it up. No folds, no lines flapping in the breeze.

 

attachicon.gifFurling-Main.jpg

 

Quick, neat, and simple.

 

One can see how quickly a similar roller furling F-27 main can be rolled up on:

 

http://www.farriermarine.com/videos/Mexico.mov (about 3/4 the way through)

 

It really does work as easily as that.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

Excuse my ignorance but does't the boat in the video you linked have a boom??

 

Cant really see how a rolling boomless main is going to work the same way. What does the topping lift attach to? What do you do with the mainsheet?

 

Yes, the F-27 has a boom, but the F-22 does not, and F-22 main roller furls in exactly the same way except it does not need an expensive and heavy boom. Topping lift attaches to a swivel on the back of the batten, and main sheet is simply released (which one also does on the F-27 but in a slightly different way). It is shown doing it in the photos, and we will soon have a video too.

 

Ian Farrier,

 

Farrier Marine,

Designs that Work

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Checked the photos of the launch. The boat looks great. The sail looks like it does have a boom of sorts. Certainly a very stiff bottom batten.

 

Wish it had a proper boom and traveller tho. Tacking and gybing sails is hard enough, tacking and gybing the mast is completely unnecessary.

 

Main has a flexible batten, and just plain old wood on the prototype, costing around $25, compared to a $1500 heavy boom. Will go to a composite batten on final version, but still at a fraction of the cost and weight.

 

What's a 'proper boom' anyway - something like a 'proper boat' that our monohull friends keep wanting to be in the America's Cup, or just something old?

 

We don't tack or gybe the mast, the sail does that all on its own:

 

post-18231-0-91281900-1380595038_thumb.jpg

See any rotation controls here?

 

It is even easier and simpler than having the boom do it, the loads on mast are much less, and the deck is cleaner. The provision is there to induce more rotation when needed for racers, and very simply, but cruisers will have no need to do this (less deck clutter).

 

post-18231-0-98163500-1380595055_thumb.jpg

 

Traveler is also a 'proper traveler' but located at the end of the cockpit and right out of the way where it should be. Better still it is much easier to release traveler control lines when cam cleats are angled forward towards you.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

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^

on a rotating mast with a boom

 

having the traveller fwd of the clew helps induce mast rotation no?

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

 

Try it and see what happens...

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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No, the traveller needs to be forward of the mainsheet attachment to the boom

^

on a rotating mast with a boom

 

having the traveller fwd of the clew helps induce mast rotation no?

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I have a Nacra 5.8 which is boomless and fast, in good wind if the mainsheet and traveller are set correctly the mast aligns itself at the proper angle, I do not touch the mast rotation upwind or on a reach unless it's light wind and the mast is slopping around, it the sails are trimmed it is all adjusting downhaul in the gusts. The mast rotation lever sticks out the front, once you lock the positive rotation on, the mast is fixed no slopping, just remember to release in a tack. Down wind the mast rotation is locked with the mast across the boat so the mast is part of the sail, in heavy wind I don't adjust the mast rotation or lock it at all even over 25kts just let it align itself with the sail.

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

 

Try it and see what happens...

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Hard to believe that this is even being spoken about. The boomless setup might be fine for mum and dad to go cruising with - but if you even mention the word racing and think that a boomless setup is the go you are on drugs. You cannot ever properly control the the depth of the mainsail without a boom. If the boomless main setup worked - then we would all be using it as it would be much lighter and less weight and cost. But it does not work for anything requiring correct mainsail trim - so no one uses it. This subject should be in Cruising Anarchy.

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

 

Try it and see what happens...

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Hard to believe that this is even being spoken about. The boomless setup might be fine for mum and dad to go cruising with - but if you even mention the word racing and think that a boomless setup is the go you are on drugs. You cannot ever properly control the the depth of the mainsail without a boom. If the boomless main setup worked - then we would all be using it as it would be much lighter and less weight and cost. But it does not work for anything requiring correct mainsail trim - so no one uses it. This subject should be in Cruising Anarchy.

ever raced against Randy ?

 

didn't think so :-)

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

 

Try it and see what happens...

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Hard to believe that this is even being spoken about. The boomless setup might be fine for mum and dad to go cruising with - but if you even mention the word racing and think that a boomless setup is the go you are on drugs. You cannot ever properly control the the depth of the mainsail without a boom. If the boomless main setup worked - then we would all be using it as it would be much lighter and less weight and cost. But it does not work for anything requiring correct mainsail trim - so no one uses it. This subject should be in Cruising Anarchy.

ever raced against Randy ?

 

didn't think so :-)

Send us all a list of boats that go racing without booms whilst your on your knees with Randy. If a boomless setup was to go everyone would be using them. Ever seen an Orma 60 without a boom? What about an extreme 40 catamaran? What about the lake boats in Europe? What a dumb thing to argue.

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

 

Try it and see what happens...

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Hard to believe that this is even being spoken about. The boomless setup might be fine for mum and dad to go cruising with - but if you even mention the word racing and think that a boomless setup is the go you are on drugs. You cannot ever properly control the the depth of the mainsail without a boom. If the boomless main setup worked - then we would all be using it as it would be much lighter and less weight and cost. But it does not work for anything requiring correct mainsail trim - so no one uses it. This subject should be in Cruising Anarchy.

 

So how do you control the depth of your boomless jib?

 

Is the above opinion based on actual fact such as identical designs, with one using a boomless main, and one using a boomed main?

 

We have such a comparison between production F-25Cs, some of which use booms, some boomless, and the fastest F-25C has always been the boomless version.

 

post-18231-0-17551200-1380684489_thumb.jpg

 

Have you even tried a boomless main? I was once a skeptic, but then tried one, saw how easy they were to handle, and how fast they were. It was obvious right from the start that the F-22 had to have a boomless main, provided I could develop a good roller furling system, which has now been achieved.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

 

Try it and see what happens...

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Hard to believe that this is even being spoken about. The boomless setup might be fine for mum and dad to go cruising with - but if you even mention the word racing and think that a boomless setup is the go you are on drugs. You cannot ever properly control the the depth of the mainsail without a boom. If the boomless main setup worked - then we would all be using it as it would be much lighter and less weight and cost. But it does not work for anything requiring correct mainsail trim - so no one uses it. This subject should be in Cruising Anarchy.

 

So how do you control the depth of your boomless jib?

 

Is the above opinion based on actual fact such as identical designs, with one using a boomless main, and one using a boomed main?

 

We have such a comparison between production F-25Cs, some of which use booms, some boomless, and the fastest F-25C has always been the boomless version.

 

attachicon.gifF-25CBoomless.jpg

 

Have you even tried a boomless main? I was once a skeptic, but then tried one, saw how easy they were to handle, and how fast they were. It was obvious right from the start that the F-22 had to have a boomless main, provided I could develop a good roller furling system, which has now been achieved.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

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No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

 

 

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

 

The personal insult already, and thus it appears the above is all you have? No actual facts to back up your claims, .....anything?

 

We all know how to trim a jib (just another very effective boomless sail), and the fact you don't know that a boomless main has similar or better control options, does tend to show that you have never used one. We don't need to move the traveler fore and aft to vary mainsheet angle, as this is done at the clew end just as it is with a self tacking (boomless) jib. The traveler also gives much greater variability athwartships with no need for any outboard sheets.

 

 

It also seems you have no answer to the fact that the fastest F-25C (an all carbon racing boat) has always been the boomless main version? Surely you must have a credible answer to this absolute fact other than 'stop arguing' or 'no one else uses it'?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

Oomummado,

 

Thought I would share some images of some of the fastest "Mums, Dads and Kids" on San Francisco Bay, out on their boomless "Cruising Boats". As you can see, this setup is completely unsuitable for any serious race boat. ;)

 

All images courtesy of Slackwater_SF.

 

Prosail 40 Shadow:

shadowlow.jpg

 

Prosail 40 Tuki:

tuki.jpg

 

D-Class Rocket 88:

rocket88low.jpg

 

D-Class Beowulf:

beowulf.jpg

 

F-25C Khimaira:

khimairalow.jpg

 

Cheers!!!

 

-MH

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Why wouldn't you have the traveller there with a boom?

 

Try it and see what happens...

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Hard to believe that this is even being spoken about. The boomless setup might be fine for mum and dad to go cruising with - but if you even mention the word racing and think that a boomless setup is the go you are on drugs. You cannot ever properly control the the depth of the mainsail without a boom. If the boomless main setup worked - then we would all be using it as it would be much lighter and less weight and cost. But it does not work for anything requiring correct mainsail trim - so no one uses it. This subject should be in Cruising Anarchy.

 

So how do you control the depth of your boomless jib?

 

Is the above opinion based on actual fact such as identical designs, with one using a boomless main, and one using a boomed main?

 

We have such a comparison between production F-25Cs, some of which use booms, some boomless, and the fastest F-25C has always been the boomless version.

 

attachicon.gifF-25CBoomless.jpg

 

Have you even tried a boomless main? I was once a skeptic, but then tried one, saw how easy they were to handle, and how fast they were. It was obvious right from the start that the F-22 had to have a boomless main, provided I could develop a good roller furling system, which has now been achieved.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

I don't think you have raced a multi this size without a boom, so it's a bit rich of you to be so condemning of it. (Do you live in NZ by any chance?)

I have an F242 with a boom, and honestly, I can't see why this will not work. Even while flying a kite I never have to have the main out further than the traveller allows, so if the mainsheet is pulling the clew back as well as down, there should be no problem.I can get the depth out of the sail by just releasing the mainsheet slightly

As it is with a boom, as soon as you go further out than the traveller, because of no vang, the boom does no good anyway.

You are wrong with the 75 degree cruising angle, with that you would never use the top of your main. The angle is dependent surely on getting the optimum leech tension as well as the optimum foot tension. The only concern I have here is if these two need to be altered individually and I think not. If overpowered I guess it's learning to release the traveller rather than the main.

Any way I am going to give it a go, if it doesn't work, I will add a boom. But rather than criticizing an alternative idea, I will try it first.

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So... I don't actually have an F22 (yet?), but...

 

There are several holes on the clew of the main. And the traveller goes from port rail to starboard rail. And the sheet probably goes in and out. So you can go trav up and sheet out to get more shape/twist; trav down and sheet in to get less shape/twist. Move the sheet up a hole to make the effect more shape and less twist; down to make the effect less shape/more twist. Perhaps it's not the same controls as some other boats, but they are there.

 

The Farrier tris up and down the line have a long record of racing, cruising, and day sailing.

 

Every boat has compromises.

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I also forgot to apologize for the black and white F-25C photo used earlier, and in case it offended here is another one:

 

post-18231-0-52651400-1380694095_thumb.jpg

Boomless F-25C #1

However, it was way back in the black and white photo era when the first squaretop and boomless mainsail was introduced on F-boats, and such historic photos may be of interest .... :)

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

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No, the traveller needs to be forward of the mainsheet attachment to the boom

^

on a rotating mast with a boom

 

having the traveller fwd of the clew helps induce mast rotation no?

 

ah yes

 

not the sail clew

 

but the boom mainsheet attachment point

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So... I don't actually have an F22 (yet?), but...

 

There are several holes on the clew of the main. And the traveller goes from port rail to starboard rail. And the sheet probably goes in and out. So you can go trav up and sheet out to get more shape/twist; trav down and sheet in to get less shape/twist. Move the sheet up a hole to make the effect more shape and less twist; down to make the effect less shape/more twist. Perhaps it's not the same controls as some other boats, but they are there.

 

 

Every boat has compromises.

 

 

Can you actually adjust the attachment to the end of the main under load? Would the inability to adjust this attachment point be a little limiting?

It is a bit like pin-stop jib cars I imagine - very painful when you are racing, great when you are not.

 

 

The real question with those boomless boats above is not whether they are fast, but would they be faster with booms.

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No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

 

 

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

 

The personal insult already, and thus it appears the above is all you have? No actual facts to back up your claims, .....anything?

 

We all know how to trim a jib (just another very effective boomless sail), and the fact you don't know that a boomless main has similar or better control options, does tend to show that you have never used one. We don't need to move the traveler fore and aft to vary mainsheet angle, as this is done at the clew end just as it is with a self tacking (boomless) jib. The traveler also gives much greater variability athwartships with no need for any outboard sheets.

 

 

It also seems you have no answer to the fact that the fastest F-25C (an all carbon racing boat) has always been the boomless main version? Surely you must have a credible answer to this absolute fact other than 'stop arguing' or 'no one else uses it'?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

Once again - Ian Farrier can do no wrong and everything he does and says is the best solution.

 

If your correct (which you are not) then every other designer / engineer / sailor is wrong in the world. No one uses this system because it does not work and will never be effective for racing. Your on your own.

 

Explain to the crowd what happens with your boom less mainsail when you ease the thing out when reaching in 20 knots. Would the sail not end up as full as a maori's nose. Great idea. Also - explain how you can change the mainsheet angle for me. Are you going to tell me that you are going to go full mainsheet off - have two blokes simply hold onto the sail that is flapping its tits off and re-connect the mainsheet!! I have never seen any trimaran in Australia without a boom - but they must all be dick heads and not understand sailing.

 

Love what you have done with the 22 - but the boom less thing is a load of BS if you are promoting it for racing.

 

Keep it real.

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No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

 

 

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

 

The personal insult already, and thus it appears the above is all you have? No actual facts to back up your claims, .....anything?

 

We all know how to trim a jib (just another very effective boomless sail), and the fact you don't know that a boomless main has similar or better control options, does tend to show that you have never used one. We don't need to move the traveler fore and aft to vary mainsheet angle, as this is done at the clew end just as it is with a self tacking (boomless) jib. The traveler also gives much greater variability athwartships with no need for any outboard sheets.

 

 

It also seems you have no answer to the fact that the fastest F-25C (an all carbon racing boat) has always been the boomless main version? Surely you must have a credible answer to this absolute fact other than 'stop arguing' or 'no one else uses it'?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

Show us how you reef the thing efficiently in a race situation as well. Can't wait to hear this one. The clew position is different again for one.... Re-connection of the mainsheet in 20 knots........ Reef lines - where do they run to.....

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What's the story on D Class cat's?

 

Internet said its a class with just a sail area size restriction?

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What's the story on D Class cat's?

 

Internet said its a class with just a sail area size restriction?

 

A class - we all know of

 

B class - tornado, last boat standing

 

C class - little amearica's cup boats

 

D class - the biggest of the 4 box class rules set in 1960

 

from tornado alive post here year ago

 

The A Class was specified as being a maximum of 18 feet long, 8 feet wide and with a sail area of 193 square feet.

 

The B Class was specified as being a maximum of 20 feet long, 10 feet wide and with a sail area of 235 square feet maximum including the mast. The area of the mast being measured as its length multiplied by half the girth.

 

The C Class was specified as being a maximum of 25 feet long, 14 feet wide and with a sail area of 300 square feet maximum.

 

D Class -- 32 feet long with 500 square feet of sail area

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It might surprise you, but you are [or you're] not the first person to think of this. There is a quite clever solution in the pipeline.

 

Why the hell would IF spend time to show you though, you don't seem too enthusiastic for the F-22 despite trolling through an F-22 thread to get here? What are you here for?

 

 

 

 

No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

 

 

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

 

The personal insult already, and thus it appears the above is all you have? No actual facts to back up your claims, .....anything?

 

We all know how to trim a jib (just another very effective boomless sail), and the fact you don't know that a boomless main has similar or better control options, does tend to show that you have never used one. We don't need to move the traveler fore and aft to vary mainsheet angle, as this is done at the clew end just as it is with a self tacking (boomless) jib. The traveler also gives much greater variability athwartships with no need for any outboard sheets.

 

 

It also seems you have no answer to the fact that the fastest F-25C (an all carbon racing boat) has always been the boomless main version? Surely you must have a credible answer to this absolute fact other than 'stop arguing' or 'no one else uses it'?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

Show us how you reef the thing efficiently in a race situation as well. Can't wait to hear this one. The clew position is different again for one.... Re-connection of the mainsheet in 20 knots........ Reef lines - where do they run to.....

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Cool thanks for that. When did the class stop building / developing ?

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No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

 

 

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

 

The personal insult already, and thus it appears the above is all you have? No actual facts to back up your claims, .....anything?

 

We all know how to trim a jib (just another very effective boomless sail), and the fact you don't know that a boomless main has similar or better control options, does tend to show that you have never used one. We don't need to move the traveler fore and aft to vary mainsheet angle, as this is done at the clew end just as it is with a self tacking (boomless) jib. The traveler also gives much greater variability athwartships with no need for any outboard sheets.

 

 

It also seems you have no answer to the fact that the fastest F-25C (an all carbon racing boat) has always been the boomless main version? Surely you must have a credible answer to this absolute fact other than 'stop arguing' or 'no one else uses it'?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

Once again - Ian Farrier can do no wrong and everything he does and says is the best solution.

 

If your correct (which you are not) then every other designer / engineer / sailor is wrong in the world. No one uses this system because it does not work and will never be effective for racing. Your on your own.

 

Explain to the crowd what happens with your boom less mainsail when you ease the thing out when reaching in 20 knots. Would the sail not end up as full as a maori's nose. Great idea. Also - explain how you can change the mainsheet angle for me. Are you going to tell me that you are going to go full mainsheet off - have two blokes simply hold onto the sail that is flapping its tits off and re-connect the mainsheet!! I have never seen any trimaran in Australia without a boom - but they must all be dick heads and not understand sailing.

 

Love what you have done with the 22 - but the boom less thing is a load of BS if you are promoting it for racing.

 

Keep it real.

 

 

 

What are you trying to achieve with this constant attacking of Ian and his efforts? Do you think this will help the sport of sailing or make sailing an appealing place to be?

 

I'm sure that Ian makes many mistakes, I know I do, but given he has been in business for over 30 years and his efforts have produced many successful boats I'm certain he has learnt from those mistakes.

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Cool thanks for that. When did the class stop building / developing ?

 

The catamaran that Thomas Crown is seen racing in Long Island Sound is a D-Type Catamaran. The earliest Class D catamarans were designed and built by individual amateur designers as early as 1963. Richard Karcher, Watchung, NJ built either USD#1 or #2 at the time. His "D" boats were sailed on Barnegat Bay in New Jersey for several years on an experimental basis. Richard also designed and manufactured several other types limited production catamarans at the time, one of which was considered as the official Olympic Class Catamaran and participated in the trial in England. Due to the vast amount of power that this design represented, no "production" versions were ever produced and interest and research into this Class waned. Years later in the 1980s interest in this extremely fast and highly unstable yacht design was revived by California based aeronautical engineers who tried to break inshore multi-hull speed records. Today there are only a handful of them left in the world.

 

that may be a reference to tom rolland who brought the R36 out in the early 70's in the hope of starting a big cat racing league

 

that didn't get off the ground so he redesigned the boat to half size and after a couple of alpha cats it became the 17' nacra 5.2

the grand daddy of today's F18 and olympic class F17

 

the nacra name being carried over from the failed big boat league

 

north

american

catamaran

racing

association

 

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No your wrong and your starting to look pretty amateur by arguing this.

 

 

 

 

How do you control your boom less jib? Are you serious...... You move the car for and aft on a track with a purchase system. When you go outboard for reaching, you attach an outboard sheet and tweak it so that you maintain the correct trim. On a proper race boat, you have either an athwartships floating system or an athwartships track that allows you to move your sheeting angle wider and a fly block that is effectively your car fore and aft. Thats how. Are you going to move your mainsheet track fore and aft....... By the way - a typical sheeting angle for a 'boomless jib' is roughly 45 degrees..... Your boomless cruising system is around 75 degrees.

 

Stop arguing this for a racing boat. Its why no one uses it. It does not work. Keep it for Mum Dad and the kids.

 

The personal insult already, and thus it appears the above is all you have? No actual facts to back up your claims, .....anything?

 

We all know how to trim a jib (just another very effective boomless sail), and the fact you don't know that a boomless main has similar or better control options, does tend to show that you have never used one. We don't need to move the traveler fore and aft to vary mainsheet angle, as this is done at the clew end just as it is with a self tacking (boomless) jib. The traveler also gives much greater variability athwartships with no need for any outboard sheets.

 

 

It also seems you have no answer to the fact that the fastest F-25C (an all carbon racing boat) has always been the boomless main version? Surely you must have a credible answer to this absolute fact other than 'stop arguing' or 'no one else uses it'?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

Once again - Ian Farrier can do no wrong and everything he does and says is the best solution.

 

If your correct (which you are not) then every other designer / engineer / sailor is wrong in the world. No one uses this system because it does not work and will never be effective for racing. Your on your own.

 

Explain to the crowd what happens with your boom less mainsail when you ease the thing out when reaching in 20 knots. Would the sail not end up as full as a maori's nose. Great idea. Also - explain how you can change the mainsheet angle for me. Are you going to tell me that you are going to go full mainsheet off - have two blokes simply hold onto the sail that is flapping its tits off and re-connect the mainsheet!! I have never seen any trimaran in Australia without a boom - but they must all be dick heads and not understand sailing.

 

Love what you have done with the 22 - but the boom less thing is a load of BS if you are promoting it for racing.

 

Keep it real.

Have you ever sailed a boom less main? It should be pretty easy with a full batten main to solve sail shape issues within a pretty wide range with a full beam width traveler.

 

I've never had a roller reefing main that worked. I've never found them to be useable because of the issues with feeding the bolt rope, slugs, cars. If you can figure out a very slick method for handling that issue, the roller reefing is gold.

 

Either issue is really meaningless in respect to the overall boat use. It'd be pretty easy to add a boom. Pretty easy to add cars/slugs and traditional reefing.

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^

on a rotating mast with a boom

 

having the traveller fwd of the clew helps induce mast rotation no?

Can do depending on setup.

On my cat the boom is not attached to the mast so the traveller position is irrelevant.

When the mast is allowed rotate freely it is limited by the shrouds be attached to the side of the mast, not the front.

This works well when overpowered as the mast just feathers into the apparent wind. If we want more power, and for downwind, we can rotate further with the rotation controls. We can also 'lock' the mast in any position we want by cleating off both rotation controls.

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I don't have an opinion on which would be fastest, boom or boomless. I tend to think that if each were well set up they would be pretty even. I do see the many advantages of the boomless setup, all those that Ian has mentioned, except the traveller position.

 

Ian said try it and see what happens. I don't think I need to do that and it would be difficult for me to try it on my cat, because the boom does not attach to the mast and on my sprint because it would be a lot of trouble to move the traveller. So better to think it through.

 

Let's say we take the production F22 with the traveller in the boomless position. And we take the too less main but have it made without the clew board and without the stiff bottom batten. Then we connect the main sheet tackle to the clew via a webbing loop similar to that which many of us use around the boom. Then we insert a boom through that webbing loop and attach it wing a gooseneck fitting, either to the mast or to a mounting point on the deck, just behind the mast.

 

Would this not work exactly as the boomless except that we could use an inhaul instead of having to change attachment points on the clew board?

 

My point is that IMO you could have the traveller back there out of the way and still have a boom if you want to.

 

If I wanted a F22 (and I did until I concluded that I am more of a Cat person Than a Tri person) I would choose the option as above.

I prefer to keep my boat on a mooring and only put it on a trailer once or twice a year. So I would have a boom, lazy jacks a mast track and cars and a hanked on jib (because I don't like furled jibs left up on a mooring). The boom could be a Very light carbon tube as it has no bending forces, nor compression forces. It would give me something to attach my lazy jacks to and I would enjoy coming up to a mooring, or dropping anchor or coming in to a beach, and just releasing the main halyard for the mainsail to drop and flake neatly of the boom. Ready to haul up again after lunch or ready to have a cover put over it to leave on the mooring or at anchor.

 

Nothing wrong with boomless, just for me better to have a boom and I do like the traveller back there.

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So... I don't actually have an F22 (yet?), but...

 

There are several holes on the clew of the main. And the traveller goes from port rail to starboard rail. And the sheet probably goes in and out. So you can go trav up and sheet out to get more shape/twist; trav down and sheet in to get less shape/twist. Move the sheet up a hole to make the effect more shape and less twist; down to make the effect less shape/more twist. Perhaps it's not the same controls as some other boats, but they are there.

 

 

Every boat has compromises.

 

 

Can you actually adjust the attachment to the end of the main under load? Would the inability to adjust this attachment point be a little limiting?

It is a bit like pin-stop jib cars I imagine - very painful when you are racing, great when you are not.

 

 

The real question with those boomless boats above is not whether they are fast, but would they be faster with booms.

 

 

Similarly with jibs, you cannot adjust the fore and aft angle under load. Most sailors just find the best compromise (as I do) and then leave it there. But adjustment under load is possible with the jib by fitting a fore and aft control to the car. But same thing with the mainsail clew control - one just fits a track and slide to the clew board, add a fore and aft control and one also has variable mainsheet angle adjustment under load. The only difference being you only need one control instead of two. This may become an option for the F-22R or F-22XR (to be decided) but the fastest boomless F-25C does not use such a control.

And again, the fastest F-25C (an all carbon racing boat) has always been the boomless main version. This is an absolute fact with production boats, and the only case that I know of where a real world comparison exists with near as possible identical boats.

Thus the real question should be how much slower are the boom versions?

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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Once again - Ian Farrier can do no wrong and everything he does and says is the best solution.

 

 

 

If your correct (which you are not) then every other designer / engineer / sailor is wrong in the world. No one uses this system because it does not work and will never be effective for racing. Your on your own.

 

Explain to the crowd what happens with your boom less mainsail when you ease the thing out when reaching in 20 knots. Would the sail not end up as full as a maori's nose. Great idea. Also - explain how you can change the mainsheet angle for me. Are you going to tell me that you are going to go full mainsheet off - have two blokes simply hold onto the sail that is flapping its tits off and re-connect the mainsheet!! I have never seen any trimaran in Australia without a boom - but they must all be dick heads and not understand sailing.

 

Love what you have done with the 22 - but the boom less thing is a load of BS if you are promoting it for racing.

 

Now I think we are getting to your real problem. You appear to have absolutely no experience with boomless mains, have no facts to back up your arguments, all of which have now been shot down with either race facts or photos of boats that you claim not to exist.

 

All you can do is attack me or call real world facts BS, with no facts to support your claims. Okay for in a bar somewhere where your claims will not be challenged, but here some facts and reasoned arguments are required.

 

So we all now know you don't like boomless mains, and anyone promoting boomless mains are insulting the whole Australian race. But nobody has to buy one, as a boomed main is an option. All you have to do is pay around $1500 more and you can have a boom. However, boom gets in the way of mainsail luff, which then has to finish 500mm/20" short, and full length of wing mast cannot then be used. Slow in other words. So you end up paying $1500 more for a heavier and more complex boat that is slower, with a cockpit cut in half by the traveler, and being swept by a heavy boom (remember to duck). Not really a deal I would take.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Show us how you reef the thing efficiently in a race situation as well. Can't wait to hear this one. The clew position is different again for one.... Re-connection of the mainsheet in 20 knots........ Reef lines - where do they run to.....

 

Once again your complete lack of experience with boomless mains is showing. You do not have to disconnect or reconnect mainsheet when reefing, and reefing system is one of the easiest to setup and use that I have experienced. It is currently being setup on our #1 boat, and will be fully detailed soon, along with many photos, as everything always is with my designs.

 

The key moment that completely sold me on the boomless main was in fact reefing an F-31R in Florida that had one of the first boomless mains. I still remember thinking - it's that easy?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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I don't have an opinion on which would be fastest, boom or boomless. I tend to think that if each were well set up they would be pretty even. I do see the many advantages of the boomless setup, all those that Ian has mentioned, except the traveller position.

 

Ian said try it and see what happens. I don't think I need to do that and it would be difficult for me to try it on my cat, because the boom does not attach to the mast and on my sprint because it would be a lot of trouble to move the traveller. So better to think it through.

 

Let's say we take the production F22 with the traveller in the boomless position. And we take the too less main but have it made without the clew board and without the stiff bottom batten. Then we connect the main sheet tackle to the clew via a webbing loop similar to that which many of us use around the boom. Then we insert a boom through that webbing loop and attach it wing a gooseneck fitting, either to the mast or to a mounting point on the deck, just behind the mast.

 

Would this not work exactly as the boomless except that we could use an inhaul instead of having to change attachment points on the clew board?

 

My point is that IMO you could have the traveller back there out of the way and still have a boom if you want to.

 

If I wanted a F22 (and I did until I concluded that I am more of a Cat person Than a Tri person) I would choose the option as above.

I prefer to keep my boat on a mooring and only put it on a trailer once or twice a year. So I would have a boom, lazy jacks a mast track and cars and a hanked on jib (because I don't like furled jibs left up on a mooring). The boom could be a Very light carbon tube as it has no bending forces, nor compression forces. It would give me something to attach my lazy jacks to and I would enjoy coming up to a mooring, or dropping anchor or coming in to a beach, and just releasing the main halyard for the mainsail to drop and flake neatly of the boom. Ready to haul up again after lunch or ready to have a cover put over it to leave on the mooring or at anchor.

 

Nothing wrong with boomless, just for me better to have a boom and I do like the traveller back there.

 

Paul,

 

Thanks for a well reasoned and factual post - some of it wrong of course :), as you don't have to change sheet positions for an inhaul effect, and one would be stuck with lazy jacks, but at least you don't think boomless mains are a threat to civilization.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Interesting discussion with the boomless main and perhaps people should understand fast trimarans and cat sailing a little better before commenting. Comments such as 75 degrees for the main ( if the stays will let you go that far ) simply shows a relative lack of understanding of fast sailing.

 

If sailed correctly then almost all of the time the wind will be foward of a reach due to the apparant wind direction being a combination of wind strength and speed creating a wind direction that always will seem to be less than 45 degrees to the sail. Let out the travellor beyond 10's of centimetres and you will loose all power in the sail as it will simply be in line with the wind. Yes if you get into a blow then the boat speed will not be high enough to reduce the apparant winds direction to low degrees but at that point you are in survival mode and you will have reefed to such an extent that the sail shape will be almost irrelavent.

 

Best VMG downwind will always be with the wind around 45 degrees to the boat, most fast cat sailors now simply let out the travellor a few cm's and ease the main a little to make the head of the sail a little fuller and then enjoy the high speed blasts of speed. Modern materials and better batten control take care of the shape of the sail almost without any input from the sailor other than getting the sail into the right position to operate as a wing shape.

 

The saying is, "theres more than one way to skin the cat" and boomless mains are just another method of sail control. Certainly I look foward to such time that I have a boat suitable to try it.

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Interesting discussion with the boomless main....

 

 

The saying is, "theres more than one way to skin the cat" and boomless mains are just another method of sail control. Certainly I look foward to such time that I have a boat suitable to try it.

Well said, and have to give it a try, so I will be getting my F22 without a boom.

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Interesting discussion with the boomless main and perhaps people should understand fast trimarans and cat sailing a little better before commenting. Comments such as 75 degrees for the main ( if the stays will let you go that far ) simply shows a relative lack of understanding of fast sailing.

 

If sailed correctly then almost all of the time the wind will be foward of a reach due to the apparant wind direction being a combination of wind strength and speed creating a wind direction that always will seem to be less than 45 degrees to the sail. Let out the travellor beyond 10's of centimetres and you will loose all power in the sail as it will simply be in line with the wind. Yes if you get into a blow then the boat speed will not be high enough to reduce the apparant winds direction to low degrees but at that point you are in survival mode and you will have reefed to such an extent that the sail shape will be almost irrelavent.

 

Best VMG downwind will always be with the wind around 45 degrees to the boat, most fast cat sailors now simply let out the travellor a few cm's and ease the main a little to make the head of the sail a little fuller and then enjoy the high speed blasts of speed. Modern materials and better batten control take care of the shape of the sail almost without any input from the sailor other than getting the sail into the right position to operate as a wing shape.

 

The saying is, "theres more than one way to skin the cat" and boomless mains are just another method of sail control. Certainly I look foward to such time that I have a boat suitable to try it.

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. No experience with apparent wind sailing.

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As with all racing it takes more planning than cruising, with the boomless main getting good battens and using correct tension is the most important setting. In real light wind my battens are tied as tight as possible so that the sail has shape in no wind. On real heavy days the battens are tied in a bit loose so that the sail can slide along the batten and flatten once the downhaul is applied. Because it is a factory one design sail the centre clew hole has proven to be the only one used on Nacra 5.8's and it is never changed. You can certainly ease it on a reach without worrying about sail shape. With a boom the main sheet must always pull a bit forward or it effects your mast rotation or could pull your boom off the gooseneck. Boomless if designed correctly the mainsheet pulls back and down so as you tighten your mainsheet it flattens your sail, pulling the mast into alignment with the wind and sail, the last few inches on the mainsheet can have a dramatic effect on sail shape. The reason there aren't more boomless boats is that the boat and sail has to be designed for it.

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Interesting discussion with the boomless main and perhaps people should understand fast trimarans and cat sailing a little better before commenting. Comments such as 75 degrees for the main ( if the stays will let you go that far ) simply shows a relative lack of understanding of fast sailing.

 

If sailed correctly then almost all of the time the wind will be foward of a reach due to the apparant wind direction being a combination of wind strength and speed creating a wind direction that always will seem to be less than 45 degrees to the sail. Let out the travellor beyond 10's of centimetres and you will loose all power in the sail as it will simply be in line with the wind. Yes if you get into a blow then the boat speed will not be high enough to reduce the apparant winds direction to low degrees but at that point you are in survival mode and you will have reefed to such an extent that the sail shape will be almost irrelavent.

 

Best VMG downwind will always be with the wind around 45 degrees to the boat, most fast cat sailors now simply let out the travellor a few cm's and ease the main a little to make the head of the sail a little fuller and then enjoy the high speed blasts of speed. Modern materials and better batten control take care of the shape of the sail almost without any input from the sailor other than getting the sail into the right position to operate as a wing shape.

 

The saying is, "theres more than one way to skin the cat" and boomless mains are just another method of sail control. Certainly I look foward to such time that I have a boat suitable to try it.

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. No experience with apparent wind sailing.

Its sheeting angle of the sheet you rocket scientists. Can you not read. Not the sheeting angle of the sail off centreline or boom angle.

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I don't have an opinion on which would be fastest, boom or boomless. I tend to think that if each were well set up they would be pretty even. I do see the many advantages of the boomless setup, all those that Ian has mentioned, except the traveller position.

Ian said try it and see what happens. I don't think I need to do that and it would be difficult for me to try it on my cat, because the boom does not attach to the mast and on my sprint because it would be a lot of trouble to move the traveller. So better to think it through.

Let's say we take the production F22 with the traveller in the boomless position. And we take the too less main but have it made without the clew board and without the stiff bottom batten. Then we connect the main sheet tackle to the clew via a webbing loop similar to that which many of us use around the boom. Then we insert a boom through that webbing loop and attach it wing a gooseneck fitting, either to the mast or to a mounting point on the deck, just behind the mast.

Would this not work exactly as the boomless except that we could use an inhaul instead of having to change attachment points on the clew board?

My point is that IMO you could have the traveller back there out of the way and still have a boom if you want to.

If I wanted a F22 (and I did until I concluded that I am more of a Cat person Than a Tri person) I would choose the option as above.

I prefer to keep my boat on a mooring and only put it on a trailer once or twice a year. So I would have a boom, lazy jacks a mast track and cars and a hanked on jib (because I don't like furled jibs left up on a mooring). The boom could be a Very light carbon tube as it has no bending forces, nor compression forces. It would give me something to attach my lazy jacks to and I would enjoy coming up to a mooring, or dropping anchor or coming in to a beach, and just releasing the main halyard for the mainsail to drop and flake neatly of the boom. Ready to haul up again after lunch or ready to have a cover put over it to leave on the mooring or at anchor.

Nothing wrong with boomless, just for me better to have a boom and I do like the traveller back there.

Paul,

 

Thanks for a well reasoned and factual post - some of it wrong of course :), as you don't have to change sheet positions for an inhaul effect, and one would be stuck with lazy jacks, but at least you don't think boomless mains are a threat to civilization.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Far fom it, I think your boomless main setup is ideal for an owner who wishes to keep the boat in the driveway/carport/garage/backyard and tow to the water when wanting to go sailing.

For me, who prefers to keep my boat on a mooring, the ideal steup would be to have everything the same as boomless so that I could have the traveller back where it should be, as you say, but I would have a light boom so that I could have the lazy jacks that I love and the track on the mast and cars.

 

Please let me in on the secret of the inhaul effect without moving the main sheet attachment on the clew board. Would it work the same with my proposed minimalist boom proposal? And what is the purpose of the clew board?

All very much in theory now as I am very happy with my cat and my sprint is for sale.

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The debate will get some data when the first two aussie boats come out of the container in the not too distant future. Boat #2 (mine) will be boomless and Boat #3 is going with a boom because he feels comfortable that way. No big problem, I will have a few dollars left in my pocket to wager the rums as both boats will be based in Brisvegas.

Ian took a while to convince me of the merits of roller-furling, and I now I am convinced it is absolutely essential to carefree small (under 31') boat sailing. So I am looking forward to trying out this next development. When I see the best Nacra boomless guys sailing without moving the clew hook from the middle spot, it gives me confidence in the new game.

Anyone want my old lazyjacks?

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The debate will get some data when the first two aussie boats come out of the container in the not too distant future. Boat #2 (mine) will be boomless and Boat #3 is going with a boom because he feels comfortable that way. No big problem, I will have a few dollars left in my pocket to wager the rums as both boats will be based in Brisvegas.

Ian took a while to convince me of the merits of roller-furling, and I now I am convinced it is absolutely essential to carefree small (under 31') boat sailing. So I am looking forward to trying out this next development. When I see the best Nacra boomless guys sailing without moving the clew hook from the middle spot, it gives me confidence in the new game.

Anyone want my old lazyjacks?

How far along is Ian on your boat? I am boat #6. It is going to the USA.

 

Bill

F-22 #6

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Interesting discussion with the boomless main and perhaps people should understand fast trimarans and cat sailing a little better before commenting. Comments such as 75 degrees for the main ( if the stays will let you go that far ) simply shows a relative lack of understanding of fast sailing.

 

If sailed correctly then almost all of the time the wind will be foward of a reach due to the apparant wind direction being a combination of wind strength and speed creating a wind direction that always will seem to be less than 45 degrees to the sail. Let out the travellor beyond 10's of centimetres and you will loose all power in the sail as it will simply be in line with the wind. Yes if you get into a blow then the boat speed will not be high enough to reduce the apparant winds direction to low degrees but at that point you are in survival mode and you will have reefed to such an extent that the sail shape will be almost irrelavent.

 

Best VMG downwind will always be with the wind around 45 degrees to the boat, most fast cat sailors now simply let out the travellor a few cm's and ease the main a little to make the head of the sail a little fuller and then enjoy the high speed blasts of speed. Modern materials and better batten control take care of the shape of the sail almost without any input from the sailor other than getting the sail into the right position to operate as a wing shape.

 

The saying is, "theres more than one way to skin the cat" and boomless mains are just another method of sail control. Certainly I look foward to such time that I have a boat suitable to try it.

 

Have you sailed an F22 or a similar sized tri? They are exiting fast boats that punch above their weight no doubt... but they are not THAT fast, if you can sail them downwind at max VMG in all conditions with the apparent wind at 45 I'll eat my fucking hat.

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I'm thinking about how I can turn my Multi23 into roller reefing. I think it will be fairly straightforward. I need to have a different rotation control - currently controlled with the boom, and then I'd need some sort of topping lift to keep the boom up level. That could be a bother - or not, maybe always tied off to a shroud?

The Farrier systems I've seen are with the crank in front of the mast. And reason you couldn't use the back of the boom to crank it down??

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The debate will get some data when the first two aussie boats come out of the container in the not too distant future. Boat #2 (mine) will be boomless and Boat #3 is going with a boom because he feels comfortable that way. No big problem, I will have a few dollars left in my pocket to wager the rums as both boats will be based in Brisvegas.

Ian took a while to convince me of the merits of roller-furling, and I now I am convinced it is absolutely essential to carefree small (under 31') boat sailing. So I am looking forward to trying out this next development. When I see the best Nacra boomless guys sailing without moving the clew hook from the middle spot, it gives me confidence in the new game.

Anyone want my old lazyjacks?

How far along is Ian on your boat? I am boat #6. It is going to the USA.

 

Bill

F-22 #6

 

Photo taken just this morning:

 

post-18231-0-11523300-1380930066_thumb.jpg

Plywoodboy's F-22 is third one over - both boats shown at center are being shipped to Australia as soon as they are ready - almost there, but still quite a bit of detail work to go yet, plus both masts yet to make (in process).

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

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The debate will get some data when the first two aussie boats come out of the container in the not too distant future. Boat #2 (mine) will be boomless and Boat #3 is going with a boom because he feels comfortable that way. No big problem, I will have a few dollars left in my pocket to wager the rums as both boats will be based in Brisvegas.

Ian took a while to convince me of the merits of roller-furling, and I now I am convinced it is absolutely essential to carefree small (under 31') boat sailing. So I am looking forward to trying out this next development. When I see the best Nacra boomless guys sailing without moving the clew hook from the middle spot, it gives me confidence in the new game.

Anyone want my old lazyjacks?

How far along is Ian on your boat? I am boat #6. It is going to the USA.

 

Bill

F-22 #6

 

Photo taken just this morning:

 

attachicon.gifF-22FactoryOct2013.jpg

Plywoodboy's F-22 is third one over - both boats shown at center are being shipped to Australia as soon as they are ready - almost there, but still quite a bit of detail work to go yet, plus both masts yet to make (in process).

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

It finally is looking like a real assembly line. Is the boat on the far end a kit boat that is being stored in the factory?

 

Bill

f-22 #6

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The debate will get some data when the first two aussie boats come out of the container in the not too distant future. Boat #2 (mine) will be boomless and Boat #3 is going with a boom because he feels comfortable that way. No big problem, I will have a few dollars left in my pocket to wager the rums as both boats will be based in Brisvegas.

Ian took a while to convince me of the merits of roller-furling, and I now I am convinced it is absolutely essential to carefree small (under 31') boat sailing. So I am looking forward to trying out this next development. When I see the best Nacra boomless guys sailing without moving the clew hook from the middle spot, it gives me confidence in the new game.

Anyone want my old lazyjacks?

How far along is Ian on your boat? I am boat #6. It is going to the USA.

 

Bill

F-22 #6

 

Photo taken just this morning:

 

attachicon.gifF-22FactoryOct2013.jpg

Plywoodboy's F-22 is third one over - both boats shown at center are being shipped to Australia as soon as they are ready - almost there, but still quite a bit of detail work to go yet, plus both masts yet to make (in process).

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

It finally is looking like a real assembly line. Is the boat on the far end a kit boat that is being stored in the factory?

 

Bill

f-22 #6

 

Yes, that is Rob Densem's F-22 which he built locally:

 

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News4/F-22LaunchedNZ.html

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

 

Designs that work

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Best VMG downwind will always be with the wind around 45 degrees to the boat, most fast cat sailors now simply let out the travellor a few cm's and ease the main a little to make the head of the sail a little fuller and then enjoy the high speed blasts of speed. Modern materials and better batten control take care of the shape of the sail almost without any input from the sailor other than getting the sail into the right position to operate as a wing shape.

Have you sailed an F22 or a similar sized tri? They are exiting fast boats that punch above their weight no doubt... but they are not THAT fast, if you can sail them downwind at max VMG in all conditions with the apparent wind at 45 I'll eat my fucking hat.

Totally agree, optimum VMG is only a goal and with my limited experience in tris, probably quite hard to get near. Sailing on a 28 ft tri though, I was impressed just how close it could get to near best VMG and was even more impressed with the F24's which weren't too far behind, so I would still reckon that the knowledge I have from actively racing cats must be reasonably broadly applicable.

 

I'm sure there are far more experienced small Tri sailors who could comment better.

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The debate will get some data when the first two aussie boats come out of the container in the not too distant future. Boat #2 (mine) will be boomless and Boat #3 is going with a boom because he feels comfortable that way. No big problem, I will have a few dollars left in my pocket to wager the rums as both boats will be based in Brisvegas.

Ian took a while to convince me of the merits of roller-furling, and I now I am convinced it is absolutely essential to carefree small (under 31') boat sailing. So I am looking forward to trying out this next development. When I see the best Nacra boomless guys sailing without moving the clew hook from the middle spot, it gives me confidence in the new game.

Anyone want my old lazyjacks?

How far along is Ian on your boat? I am boat #6. It is going to the USA.

 

Bill

F-22 #6

 

Photo taken just this morning:

 

attachicon.gifF-22FactoryOct2013.jpg

Plywoodboy's F-22 is third one over - both boats shown at center are being shipped to Australia as soon as they are ready - almost there, but still quite a bit of detail work to go yet, plus both masts yet to make (in process).

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

No gunports for Plywoodboy..?

any particular reason for opting out of this option, other than they only provide artillery range when not in the lead..?

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Priceless!

In my humble and biased view, the Dash is a reasonable evolution of a great old boat.

The 22 is a true generational change and afficianados are voting with their cheque books before it has even left the test track.

The last few depositors have just wanted the boat, the final figure will be just a number.

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Priceless!

In my humble and biased view, the Dash is a reasonable evolution of a great old boat.

The 22 is a true generational change and afficianados are voting with their cheque books before it has even left the test track.

The last few depositors have just wanted the boat, the final figure will be just a number.

Where's "Plywoodyboy" gone?

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I thought that with all my ply boats sold many years ago, it was time to "Come Out". Names like foam sandwich did not seem to work, so the birth certificate won. The new boat name will be interesting though.

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PH/PB

 

How many sleeps to go - getting excited!

 

A very interesting read on the boom less thing although spiced with some bullshit.

I will be very interested in how you achieve optimum sail shape in the lower panels with it and the traveller positioned way aft of 90 degrees to the clew.

As you know I regularly sail an F22 with that setup and as a racer find it very frustrating. The Nacra analogy isn't a good one as their traveller is positioned about 90 degrees to the clew and the different clew positions allow fine tuning to a set and forget. On the pre-factory F22 the fine tuning clew positions are irrelevant as they are all at a poor angle to the leech. One solution would be a longer footed main (about 400mm) but then to get a decent leech profile the head and whole sail would be much bigger and too much for the boat. The other obvious solution is move the traveller forward but that compromises the design criteria of an uncluttered cockpit for cruising. Very much looking forward to seeing you on the water.

BTW the roller furling on my Sprint is the duck's guts and you will love it on the 22.

You missed a great HB regatta - wind and waves.

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