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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Woodland2828

Roll and tip problems

42 posts in this topic

I sanded my hull with 120 grit and rolled and tipped with Brightside. I am not happy with the results because i can still see brush marks. My first attempt was with the foam brush and that looked so bad i sanded it all off. I then bought a better quality brush and that came out better but I'm still not happy with it. Any suggestions?

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Was it really hot out? Direct sun? I'm thinking the stuff set up faster then it could level out - Also does it call for a reducer/thinner - Adding more thinner will reduce the viscosity and allow the brush marks to level out (if it calls for it)

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Michigan weather between 60 and 70. I didn't do it all on the same day. I thinned it about 2 oz per quart. Maybe I should have thinned it more put i have also seen directions of no thinning at all.

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Michigan weather between 60 and 70. I didn't do it all on the same day. I thinned it about 2 oz per quart. Maybe I should have thinned it more put i have also seen directions of no thinning at all.

 

What color? Dark colors show more.

 

Which direction did you work? Horizontal or vertical.

 

Maybe you should have tried a test section rather than doing the whole boat?

 

Maybe that way you would learn about proper thinning, brush angle, speed, etc?

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In my experience, you need to thin more than that. More like 8%. You could try 5% and work up from there based on how the brush feels.

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In my experience, you need to thin more than that. More like 8%. You could try 5% and work up from there based on how the brush feels.

 

Use a hair brush, not foam. Make sure not to press too hard -- just let the tip ride against the surface.

 

I tipped my boat's deck and topsides side to side/up and down (as opposed to along the waterline).

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2011_05210006.jpg

2011_05100005.jpg

 

 

Use the Redtree foam roller thin to the max and plan on more coats the brush should only pop the air bubbles

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With Brightside, I've used Penetrol to stretch it out.

 

Overall, while it's relatively easy to apply, Briteside's poor longevity has convinced me that LPU paints (Awlgrip, Perfection) are worth the added cost and effort.

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With Brightside, I've used Penetrol to stretch it out.

 

Overall, while it's relatively easy to apply, Briteside's poor longevity has convinced me that LPU paints (Awlgrip, Perfection) are worth the added cost and effort.

+1 perfection and perfection's thinner. Roll and tip. Make sure all pinholes filled !!!!

Can add craterx if filling pinholes is not possible. I used a light wipe with Gougeon epoxy under.

 

Beautiful.

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With Brightside, I've used Penetrol to stretch it out.

 

Overall, while it's relatively easy to apply, Briteside's poor longevity has convinced me that LPU paints (Awlgrip, Perfection) are worth the added cost and effort.

+1 perfection and perfection's thinner. Roll and tip. Make sure all pinholes filled !!!!

Can add craterx if filling pinholes is not possible. I used a light wipe with Gougeon epoxy under.

 

Beautiful.

 

 

 

Hey BIG,

 

How about a bit more verbiage about the "light wipe with Gourgeon epoxy under"?

What exactly are you doing, and why?

 

Inquiring minds, you know?

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It took 24 oz of Awlgrip mixed 2:1:1 per coat on a 29 ft hull how much you going to save ?

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The big cost is in the prep, which has to be very good. Every zit shows, in high gloss!

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I sanded my hull with 120 grit and rolled and tipped with Brightside. I am not happy with the results because i can still see brush marks. My first attempt was with the foam brush and that looked so bad i sanded it all off. I then bought a better quality brush and that came out better but I'm still not happy with it. Any suggestions?

120 grit prep?? try going down the grades a bit, 320 grit minimum.

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Thanks for the tips. Its been raining pretty steady so I might have to wait till next fall to redo it. I want to get it in the water to race next Wed.

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With Brightside, I've used Penetrol to stretch it out.

 

Overall, while it's relatively easy to apply, Briteside's poor longevity has convinced me that LPU paints (Awlgrip, Perfection) are worth the added cost and effort.

+1 perfection and perfection's thinner. Roll and tip. Make sure all pinholes filled !!!!

Can add craterx if filling pinholes is not possible. I used a light wipe with Gougeon epoxy under.

 

Beautiful.

 

 

 

Hey BIG,

 

How about a bit more verbiage about the "light wipe with Gourgeon epoxy under"?

What exactly are you doing, and why?

 

Inquiring minds, you know?

This is all you ever need to know. http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/waynehicks/chapter_25_skimcoating.htm

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temp/humidity all play a role......I varnish my hull every year....I like to use 320 grit wetsand.....70's temp is good...low humidity. no direct sunlight. 10% thinning.

 

 

I always use a foam brush to tip....and always towards the wet finish, never tip to dry surface. I find that the brush carries too much product with it over and leaves excess at each end....hence it curtains.

 

perhaps with Briteside, a soft brush, very soft brush would be best.

 

and of course never go back to correct a mistake.

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Great info. Appreciated, as I am roll/tipping small dinghy and encountered similar problems. Feint brush marks need to go...

 

I understand the light touch, but it seems where the new coat meets the previous coat one needs more pressure to spread out, mix, etc. Is that right or not thin enough?

 

I use mohair or foam short roller to smooth our on small flat areas, tip and proceed. On vertical surfaces, stern, just roll and tip small areas, applying toward previous application.

 

Advice to say thin 10%, is that by weight or volume? Am guessing by volume, but good to know for sure.

 

I just finished 3rd coat and about to sand, this time I may wet sand, although it may be overkill, then go for thinner paint, if that makes sense. Seems to be better to wait 2 days to assure hard coats, instead of 24 hours, humidity and temp considered.

 

The reference piece link above is close to what I did, using seal coat of plain epoxy, to seal pin holes, but was not perfect, and now note some things I should have seen and fixed. Author is right on course with advice about cabo...forget it, save glue...I ended up sanding off and use thick epoxy for verticals, at least for me.

 

Next time, it will be perfect, but for now, time to sail. Will add pics in morning.

 

Thanks for great stuff.

 

FWIW...Using topside Mega Gloss paint as boat is dry-sailed, stuff is quite nice, and the choice was by color, not brand. Oil base acrylic, uses naphtha to thin, a bit messy, but right color, good coverage, lower cost.

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2011_05210006.jpg

2011_05100005.jpg

 

 

Use the Redtree foam roller thin to the max and plan on more coats the brush should only pop the air bubbles

 

Beautious, almost a crime to wet it.

 

You sand between all coats? Wet or dry?

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One bit of advice that I saw somewhere was to use two good brushes when you tip and roll. I've done some tip and roll and a really dry brush does a much better job of tipping off. If you have two brushes, you can keep one brush in thinner and then spin it dry. When the 2nd brush is getting too wet then switch brushes. I have not tried this advice but it made sense to me.

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Forget thinning to percentages. Thin to the right consistency. That's the most important part as the paint will behave differently if it is hot or humid.

 

Basically you should thin the paint until it doesn't feel draggy when you tip it. Practise on a sheet of glass or plexi. You will have to keep adding thinner as you go, as some will flash off in your tray. When your tipping brush feels draggy, add some thinner.

 

Surface prep is important. 320 grit is about right.

 

If you are rolling and tipping properly, it shouldn't really matter what direction you tip in, as you are only popping bubbles, not moving alot of paint around. Tip in whatever direction works best for you.

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I waited out the weather till that perfect week about 3 weeks ago

 

IF you do coat one on Monday and cant do coat two within 24 hours (or the window ) you have to wet sand and the stuff is TOUGH to wet sand compared to say the 545 epoxy primer which sands very easy

 

Rolling on the first coat over the 545 primer the flow was completely different and very easy compared to the second coat which had far more tendency to RUN about 15 minutes after it was to late :(

 

And this was working within a 5 degree window with very consistent humidity

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Forget thinning to percentages. Thin to the right consistency. That's the most important part as the paint will behave differently if it is hot or humid.

 

 

 

 

Basically you should thin the paint until it doesn't feel draggy when you tip it. Practise on a sheet of glass or plexi. You will have to keep adding thinner as you go, as some will flash off in your tray. When your tipping brush feels draggy, add some thinner.

 

 

 

 

Surface prep is important. 320 grit is about right.

 

 

 

 

If you are rolling and tipping properly, it shouldn't really matter what direction you tip in, as you are only popping bubbles, not moving alot of paint around. Tip in whatever direction works best for you.

 

 

i agree with this advice, however,

 

 

............In my experience, if you tip from the wetted surface to the dry surface first, the brush will leave an entry mark in it. If you tip from the dry surface into the wetted surface, at the exit area of the brush there will be no mark. The product will flatten and blend leaving no mark.

 

you are not just popping bubbles here also.....in the tipping process, you are evening out the thickness of the product on the surface as best you can. When rolling, the product will apply at different thickness at edge of roller as your arm pressure will not be the same when applying throughout the proccess.

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I used Ipaints Mega Gloss. More for color, but price was quite decent at $16/quart. Dinghy is 11' 7", 1973, Kite Class dinghy...hull section.

 

Did not prime, sanded fresh epoxy and gel coat. (Pics of boat hanging before setting on trailer and rack. Pic of finished hull. Deck may do this summer or next...need to wet it.)

 

Thinned slightly with Naphtha and used mohair roller and good Purdy brush. Could have used foam, had both. Kept both wet with plastic wrap between coats at 24 to 48 hours between. Just enough to get even flow. Say about 1/4 to 1/3 of plastic film canister to about 5 or 6 oz of paint...enough to do to about half the job or to tape covering the boot stripe. (Same applied to boot strip which was applied first and allowed to dry 48 hours before taping.

 

Light sanding between each coat, using Milwaukee clutched random orbiting sander for flats, and Scotch Brite pad or 240 pad for sharply curved areas...the 3M Scotch Brite pads are amazing. I tried 400 and it clogged to easily and made no difference...

 

The big thing, for me, is that I used a too coarse brush at first, and needed to apply three more coats to get really smooth. Have no clue if primer would have improved, but I think not.

 

I poured paint a little section say about a foot square at a time, rolled out two ways, and immediately tipped using one side of brush for each batch of paint, not each application on hull. Tipped with light strokes using brush weight only, into last section. I tried to be sure to roll to last section vertically so the paint there would be wettest and blend. Of course, I forgot on occasion, but never go back to fix...

 

One more coat, and the paint would look like glass, but I decided to save the paint for some deck coverages.

 

Looks very nice...hard as hell, as I dropped a wrench on it and no harm to finish..very slight brush marks, so orange peel, nice glossy shine.

post-38311-001754600 1307357391_thumb.jpg

post-38311-077308500 1307358642_thumb.jpg

post-38311-003940400 1307359585_thumb.jpg

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Forget thinning to percentages. Thin to the right consistency. That's the most important part as the paint will behave differently if it is hot or humid.

 

 

Thin, thin, thin!

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I JUST finished doing this, and I had help from a very experience boat painter (does a couple dozen of these a year).

 

1. Tape with your fine line tape first - then sand the gloss off of whatever it is you're painting with 220 (or finer if you're a glutton for punishment). Hand sand if you're doing narrow stripes, or porter-cable random-orbital sand it if you're doing a larger area.

 

2. Double check your tape line to insure you didn't get the edge ragged. Clean with laquer thinner. Tackrag it next.

 

3. Now, mix to the specified values for your paint, and roll then lightly tip your first coat. There's a bit of an art here. If you don't have enough paint on the roller, your tipping isn't going to go well. If you have too much, you'll develop sags. Experiement a bit with this coat.

 

4. 20-30 minutes later, once the paint if tacky, put another coat on in the same manner.

 

5. Let these two coats dry thoroughly (1-2 days). Now go back and sand them smooth with 220 grit again.

 

6. Now there's two ways to do this. First, you're going to want the last coat thin. It also helps to do it HOT. In some cases the guy whom I worked with cranks his heat up on a hot day. This helps the paint flow. The point of the last coat isn't coverage - it's to have it as thin as possible so it flows. Now go back with your thin paint and do the roll-tip again. Let it sit over night and you should be good. We didn't thin to a specfic value, we started with the standard mix and then tested on a piece of scrap fiberglass he had laying around - tipped a bit onto the scrap and watched to see if it flowed well. Once it's flowing and the brush marks are erasing themselves, paint your last coat.

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+1. This is a keeper...

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Bump!!

 

Great information as I'm about to do the Pogue's topsides over the weekend. Also found a few good videos on Youtube:

 

 

 

 

cheers

 

Two Heads

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As two others have said...use a piece of plexi or glass, and thin till you get it to flow out but not sag. That way you can get your ratios right before putting any paint on the hull. Also allows you to play with/figure out best roller/brush combos, and how hard/soft etc to tip...

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bringing this topic back up, when rolling and tipping, how big an area should you roll before tipping... will be doing the topsides on a 20' boat.. also any recommendations on rollers? I was thinking 4" microfiber, would a 9" roller be better? in looking at the vids it looks like 4" or 6" is being used,

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We did J/27 with perfection a few years back, and it worked best with one person rolling the other tipping. i tipped. Found that as others have said use the best quality 3" hair brush you can get to tip. Used best quality 6" roller to roll. The tipper works about 2' behind the roller. if you have to do it on your own I'm sure others can help but depending on paint, thinner, and temp the leading edges will go at different times.

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:unsure: I used the 6" roller, did about an arm span at a time. One square yard? For me it was a three-step process though. Wipe down with an acetone-moistened rag, roll, tip, move ladder. OK, four. Temperature was around 90 - 100. Ended up with - oh, better than a 10-foot paint job, but probably worse than a 2-foot job. Infinitely better than what I started with though. +1 on a good quality brush - nothing ruins your day more than leaving a bristle behind in an otherwise-perfect patch. Don't panic - the leading edges do disappear if you don't frack with them.

 

Due to the peculiar color I ended up with, after the first coat, from some angles, I actually could not see the boat - it blended perfectly into the sky. Whoa!

Or maybe it was the fumes.

By the time I could stop and get out a camera, the sky had some haze in it.paintsky_zps2f8b095e.jpg

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bringing this topic back up, when rolling and tipping, how big an area should you roll before tipping... will be doing the topsides on a 20' boat.. also any recommendations on rollers? I was thinking 4" microfiber, would a 9" roller be better? in looking at the vids it looks like 4" or 6" is being used,

It is going to depend a lot on temp., size of your tipping brush and humidity. Get one of each size rollers, and try it. If you can find a piece of glass or plexi that is about as high as your freeboard, you should be able to get a good idea.

 

I would suspect you will be OK with a 9" roller, with a 2 1/2 or 3" brush, as that is only 3 or 4 tips per roller full. Make sure you are using a low knap cover, you don't want a lot of paint on at any one time. You will also want a good, natural bristle brush - a china bristle or badger.

 

You will want to do one roller, then tip.

 

If you screw something up, or get a sag, leave it, and fix it on the next coat. Messing with it after you've tipped it is a sure way of leaving marks. You will probably need 3 coats or more, depending on paint color and base color.

 

Watch out for suicide bugs.

 

Good luck.

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Righteous wipe down.

 

Thinned to the max,

 

Your least drunkest friend on the roller and you on the brush.

 

in the shade.

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I painted my old el toro with perfection, thinned like crazy to accommodate the 80 degree shade. I was painting in my backyard, so the suicide bugs were everywhere. Moral of the story make a small tent to paint in. No matter what. A rag soaked in thinner was used to lure suicide bugs away from my fresh paint.

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no shade, if I'm up early enough it'll be in the 80's... can't pitch a tent.. it'll look better than it is... we'll see.

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no shade, if I'm up early enough it'll be in the 80's... can't pitch a tent.. it'll look better than it is... we'll see.

 

Don't pick them out while the paint is still wet, you'll make a mess. Let it dry, remove what you can, and give it a buff. Won't be perfect, but will be better than leaving them in/picking them out while wet.

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I might be able to pick up a helper... yeah I run into the bristle issue with those cheap harbor freight brushes while doing the primer.. but for 49 cents they are a deal, i'll pick up a nice brush for the finish coat...

 

so do you put two coats of the topside paint? if you do two, do you roll and tip both?

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If you're going with cheap bristle brushes, which I don't recommend for any coating with a picture of boat on the can, the Amazon brushes are much better than the Harbor Freight brushes, and are not much more expensive.

 

Those HF brushes shed like a muthafukka, I hate them although I like most of their stuff for the price.

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I might be able to pick up a helper... yeah I run into the bristle issue with those cheap harbor freight brushes while doing the primer.. but for 49 cents they are a deal, i'll pick up a nice brush for the finish coat...

 

so do you put two coats of the topside paint? if you do two, do you roll and tip both?

I've always rolled and tipped all my topcoats, and find usually it's three as the paint is so thin for rolling and tipping, it takes that much to cover the primer.

 

I did see a guy at our yacht club that rolled on a non-thinned topcoat, sanded the orange peel off, and applied 1 thinned rolled and tipped coat overtop. Looked good, but if it were me, I probably would have accidently sanded through in some conspicous spot.

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I roll & tip LP's either Sterling or Awlgrip. Prep to 320 grit, you might as well dry sand unless you like playing in the water then wet sand. Thin about 40%, it varies a little with different colors but only a few %. Foam weenie rollers for small jobs, West Systems foam rollers for larger. The LP will start to break down the foam, switch covers every 30 minutes or so. Use a high quality softish brush. Since you're not putting the material on with the brush you end up with just a little mat'l on the brush. This dries quickly and your brush will get sticky. Either stop and quickly solvent rinse your brush, use acetone as it evaps quickly, or swap between a couple of brushes. Paint when it's cool, you want time for the paint to flow. Stay out of the wind or sun. Wind, besides blowing dirt in your paint will make the paint tack too quickly. Also amazing how UV even on a cool day will make your tack quickly.

Roll the paint on, quickly brush it out, then quit messing with it.

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