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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
opusone

Ker 43 Ptarmigan

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Bill:

 

Thanks a lot for your reports, I must have been great.

 

But your comment of

- It is something to be going upwind at 8.9 knots at 35 degrees TWA in 20 knots of wind. We had a heavy crew and with the righting moment provided by the dramatic hull flair she sailed flatter than i expected

 

Your boatspeed must be optimistic. It is hard to believe that a 43 footer can do 8.9 kn beating ...

 

Best,

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Bill:

 

Thanks a lot for your reports, I must have been great.

 

But your comment of

- It is something to be going upwind at 8.9 knots at 35 degrees TWA in 20 knots of wind. We had a heavy crew and with the righting moment provided by the dramatic hull flair she sailed flatter than i expected

 

Your boatspeed must be optimistic. It is hard to believe that a 43 footer can do 8.9 kn beating ...

 

Best,

 

You may be right, but, Polars for the boat in flat water are

 

20 knots TWS, 36 TWA: 8.70 knots boatspeed

20 knots TWS, 40 TWA: 9.07 knots boatspeed

 

Instrument accuracy and calibration are always a concern, however, at least during KWRW they seemed pretty close to reality.

 

Bill

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Bill,

 

As I said, very impressive.

 

We sail a Farr45 and its polars are

 

20 knots TWS, 37 TWA: 8.0 knots boatspeed

 

 

We have identical LWP and a slightly larger LH (13,8m), which is what I believe matters most when fully powered.

 

True the boat is heavier, but has somewhat more sail; it is a significantly older design, though.

With your TCC of 1.261 you would not see us in real time, not even in compensate (vs our 1.213), beating. Downwind bye bye ...

 

 

;-)

 

 

 

 

 

Bill:

 

Thanks a lot for your reports, I must have been great.

 

But your comment of

- It is something to be going upwind at 8.9 knots at 35 degrees TWA in 20 knots of wind. We had a heavy crew and with the righting moment provided by the dramatic hull flair she sailed flatter than i expected

 

Your boatspeed must be optimistic. It is hard to believe that a 43 footer can do 8.9 kn beating ...

 

Best,

 

You may be right, but, Polars for the boat in flat water are

 

20 knots TWS, 36 TWA: 8.70 knots boatspeed

20 knots TWS, 40 TWA: 9.07 knots boatspeed

 

Instrument accuracy and calibration are always a concern, however, at least during KWRW they seemed pretty close to reality.

 

Bill

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FWIW - UK Ker 40's were marginally slower than the Farr 45's (except Ran) on the water. Hardest conditions were mid range when the 45's were poled back and heading straight at the leeward mark. Tonnerre would be 4+ minutes/ hour further down the track.

 

Bill, congrats on the boat and early results, and thanks for the insights into what you're doing, sounds like you've got a good programme going.

 

Re your comment on the light airs performance and apart from the rig tune that you mentioned - from 40 experience, sail it flat, uphill and down. From memory, polars for the 40 called for 2/3 degrees of heel, can't imagine the 46 is much different. Very counter-intuitive for a big boat, and took us a while to believe it, but good for .5+ of a knot, try it off the race track.

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Bill:

 

Thanks a lot for your reports, I must have been great.

 

But your comment of

- It is something to be going upwind at 8.9 knots at 35 degrees TWA in 20 knots of wind. We had a heavy crew and with the righting moment provided by the dramatic hull flair she sailed flatter than i expected

 

Your boatspeed must be optimistic. It is hard to believe that a 43 footer can do 8.9 kn beating ...

 

Best,

 

You may be right, but, Polars for the boat in flat water are

 

20 knots TWS, 36 TWA: 8.70 knots boatspeed

20 knots TWS, 40 TWA: 9.07 knots boatspeed

 

Instrument accuracy and calibration are always a concern, however, at least during KWRW they seemed pretty close to reality.

 

Bill

Bill -

 

Your polars are about .4 faster than ours upwind in those wind conditions. In flat water we were about 8.5 knots at 34 TWA and thought that was great. At times we can hold those speeds at closer TWA's, but is wave dependent. And we owe you time.

You definitely have a weapon on your hands.

 

Enjoy your boat.

 

Cheers,

opusone

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Otra Vez is heading to St. Thomas tomorrow via Sevenstar. The team has been working hard the past few days to outfit a 20 ft. container to replace our trailer. The container was dropped off on Wednesday, and over the next 72 hours they worked non stop to build the interior and then transfer all the sails and spares. David Shriner deserves a lot of credit for getting this done.

 

Heineken, here we come!

 

Bill

 

 

post-7277-0-47185000-1392549154_thumb.jpg

post-7277-0-80625900-1392549173_thumb.jpg

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Otra Vez is heading to St. Thomas tomorrow via Sevenstar. The team has been working hard the past few days to outfit a 20 ft. container to replace our trailer. The container was dropped off on Wednesday, and over the next 72 hours they worked non stop to build the interior and then transfer all the sails and spares. David Shriner deserves a lot of credit for getting this done.

 

Heineken, here we come!

 

Bill

 

Hi Bill. If you're gonna give a plug, give it right!

 

To all grand prix BOs:

 

Shriner is the man, and if his schedule allows it, this is the dude you want working on/doing logistics for/racing on your boat. He's also a good dog-sitter.

 

 

http://www.shrinersailing.com

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Alan-

Is this an example of pimpin' services without the need to compensate Scooter?

Simply have someone else blow your horn?

Seems simple enough.

 

Bill-

Magnificent boat!

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Otra Vez has arrived in St. Thomas....With some luck with the weather they will leave for St. Maarten tomorrow.

 

Since KWRW we have completed another long to do list, including:

 

1) Modifying the banding system for all the kites as per Huey's suggestions (as he mentioned in the string drop thread)

2) Increased the purchase from 3:1 to 4:1 on the running backstays, (Harken TTR2 blocks)

3) Added an Ipad to the instrument network in place of the panasonic tablet.

4) Re-machined the vang fitting as it enters the mast to reduce chafe

5) Repaired the bow pulpit

6) Went through the boat electronics and wiring, cleaned and simplified where possible.

7) repaired the burn marks on the keel fin, faired, sprayed, and sanded.

8) replaced all the loops, soft shackles, and mainsheet strop

9) new spin sheets

10) built container, etc.

 

We will break out the full inventory for the Heineken, including the MH0, FR0, Jib top, staysails, etc. Lots to learn. We will have Simon Schofield of Ker Design racing with us and I am sure pushing us up the learning curve.

 

When in the caribbean a swim ladder is critical for the after race splash and drinks party. We are still working on this one....

 

Bill

post-7277-0-58670900-1393097263_thumb.jpg

post-7277-0-28198900-1393097310_thumb.jpg

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Alan-

Is this an example of pimpin' services without the need to compensate Scooter?

Simply have someone else blow your horn?

Seems simple enough.

 

Bill-

Magnificent boat!

 

Sharing good reviews of boat products and boat service providers by customers has ALWAYS been welcome here. It doesn't hurt that I know Dave well and he is extremely conscientious and hardworking, and can pull off shit that a lot of other guys just can't seem to, and at the right price.

 

Or that his girl watches our dog when we go out of town.

 

If you are a commercial entity, buy an ad. they are very reasonable especially with the discounts we give smaller companies. If you give great service to someone, encourage them to post reviews of your work to places like the SA forums, Facebook pages, Twitter, or whatever. I think that is fair, don't you?

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What type of rope did you get?

For the spin sheets, a custom blend PBO/technora from Marlow strong enough to use throughout the upper end of the wind range but light enough (the stripped part) to not need a set of "light air sheets"....there is a lot of Dynex/Dux and various other flavors of Dyneema on board for the rest.

 

Bill

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#200 : I saw some of thread from Haulie41 in the "line drop" thread. He discussed the challenges you guys had at KWRW with the line drop. I have developed a pretty idiot proof line drop system/aid for my 36' boat that you might be interested in. I also live relatively close to you guys. Any interest?

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I found my preious post on the topic and edited it a bit for this one:

 

I have been working on such a system to be used on a 36 foot R/C with sprit. It's taken 3 years but it works well and results in a very competitive system. The biggest issue I have seen in posts and videos is in keeping the sail, particularly the foot, out of the water. Last year I sucessfully used this system racing solo competively in a beer can fleet without an auopilot. The chute never hit the water and the retrieval process can be abandoned halfway through the douse if a steering adjustment needs to be made. The system has proven successful for winds ranging from 3 to 25 knots sailing solo. I have applied retrieval patches to 2 sails, one is a 1/2 oz, 8 years old chute, and the olther a 4 year old 3/4 oz chute. Some posters have warned of excessive wear and tear to chutes in such systems, however my chutes show no such signs. My system has many traits that have been mentioned including a faired foredeck hatch with aft roller, and a "runway" or sock to contain the chute. My sock has 2 levels which each having one of the above mentioned chutes. The sheets and retieval lines stay on the sail and all are rerun when a chute change is made. The retreival line runs from the foredeck hatch and to pulleys at the aft end of the aft stateroom, then back to the mast, and then through the companionway to the cockpit. For my solo set up, the halyard and retrieval line are tied together so that both lines are handled concurrently in a controlled fashion. This permits my leaving the dousing operation described earlier. The beauty of the dousing system is not only the speed at which it comes down, but the sail does not need to be packed since it is in the sock. If I had crew there would be no need for anyone to be on the foredeck or down below packing. This means that imediately after the douse and rounding the mark, all crew can be hiking hard. One key element to making my system work is how I am pulling from the chute and how I can control where it is being pulled, and having it reset for a hoist unattended. The big question: What would one pay for a retrieval system as described? Please be nice :)

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The main sheet strop is now strong enough to lift the boat. Twice.

Get back to work!

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The main sheet strop is now strong enough to lift the boat. Twice.

What happens if you try to lift the boat a third time?

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The main sheet strop is now strong enough to lift the boat. Twice.

What happens if you try to lift the boat a third time?

LOL

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Otra Vez has arrived in St. Thomas....With some luck with the weather they will leave for St. Maarten tomorrow.

 

Since KWRW we have completed another long to do list, including:

 

1) Modifying the banding system for all the kites as per Huey's suggestions (as he mentioned in the string drop thread)

2) Increased the purchase from 3:1 to 4:1 on the running backstays, (Harken TTR2 blocks)

3) Added an Ipad to the instrument network in place of the panasonic tablet.

4) Re-machined the vang fitting as it enters the mast to reduce chafe

5) Repaired the bow pulpit

6) Went through the boat electronics and wiring, cleaned and simplified where possible.

7) repaired the burn marks on the keel fin, faired, sprayed, and sanded.

8) replaced all the loops, soft shackles, and mainsheet strop

9) new spin sheets

10) built container, etc.

 

We will break out the full inventory for the Heineken, including the MH0, FR0, Jib top, staysails, etc. Lots to learn. We will have Simon Schofield of Ker Design racing with us and I am sure pushing us up the learning curve.

 

When in the caribbean a swim ladder is critical for the after race splash and drinks party. We are still working on this one....

 

Bill

if you're hauling fatties that cant hop back on, we need to rethink the strategy here. looks great man, keep the updates coming and best of luck to you!!

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Otra Vez is heading to St. Thomas tomorrow via Sevenstar. The team has been working hard the past few days to outfit a 20 ft. container to replace our trailer. The container was dropped off on Wednesday, and over the next 72 hours they worked non stop to build the interior and then transfer all the sails and spares. David Shriner deserves a lot of credit for getting this done.

 

Heineken, here we come!

 

Bill

 

Hi Bill. If you're gonna give a plug, give it right!

 

To all grand prix BOs:

 

Shriner is the man, and if his schedule allows it, this is the dude you want working on/doing logistics for/racing on your boat. He's also a good dog-sitter.

 

 

http://www.shrinersailing.com

 

10-4 on this, wholeheartedly agree, fortunate to have spent last summer watching him jig circles around the the other guys.

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Did you consider the 600?

I would love to do it. It was simply a scheduling matter, with KWRW, the Heineken, and St Bart's fitting more neatly into my work schedule this year. We will do the 600 or the Rolex Middle Sea race in the next 12-24 months.

 

Bill

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Did you consider the 600?

I would love to do it. It was simply a scheduling matter, with KWRW, the Heineken, and St Bart's fitting more neatly into my work schedule this year. We will do the 600 or the Rolex Middle Sea race in the next 12-24 months.

 

Bill

tough life. good on you for whatever you do and busting your ass as much as you do to get OV around. i'd be lying if i didn't say i was extremely jealous. she's a gorgeous ride.

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Did you consider the 600?

 

I would love to do it. It was simply a scheduling matter, with KWRW, the Heineken, and St Bart's fitting more neatly into my work schedule this year. We will do the 600 or the Rolex Middle Sea race in the next 12-24 months.

Bill

tough life. good on you for whatever you do and busting your ass as much as you do to get OV around. i'd be lying if i didn't say i was extremely jealous. she's a gorgeous ride.

This from the guy who spends 11 months a year sailing around the world with Victoria's secret models...

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Maybe....last word from the testing at Hall Spars is positive...but we really will not know until we hoist the main and try to get it down....

 

Bill

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Did you consider the 600?

I would love to do it. It was simply a scheduling matter, with KWRW, the Heineken, and St Bart's fitting more neatly into my work schedule this year. We will do the 600 or the Rolex Middle Sea race in the next 12-24 months.

Bill

tough life. good on you for whatever you do and busting your ass as much as you do to get OV around. i'd be lying if i didn't say i was extremely jealous. she's a gorgeous ride.

This from the guy who spends 11 months a year sailing around the world with Victoria's secret models...

We need pictures :P

 

 

Sorry for the hi-jack

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Gonna have to check the harness closely!!! Went up the rig 13 times in Key West! Also, I'm gonna sharpen up the ole knife on "Skeletool"! "A Cowboy's work is never done"!

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Did you consider the 600?

I would love to do it. It was simply a scheduling matter, with KWRW, the Heineken, and St Bart's fitting more neatly into my work schedule this year. We will do the 600 or the Rolex Middle Sea race in the next 12-24 months.

Bill

tough life. good on you for whatever you do and busting your ass as much as you do to get OV around. i'd be lying if i didn't say i was extremely jealous. she's a gorgeous ride.

This from the guy who spends 11 months a year sailing around the world with Victoria's secret models...

We need pictures :P

 

 

Sorry for the hi-jack

Small taste. I have hundreds. back on topic though!

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Halyard lock fixed?

 

The lock has arrived in St. Maarten and with some luck will go back into the rig on Saturday to be tested under load.

 

In the end the major issue seems to movement of the lock body inside the mast due to an incorrect fastener, with the result that under load their was too much side force on the "bullet" for it to release.

 

A few photos of the lock in the test stand and the "wrong fastener" are attached. The masthead blueprint is included to give an idea of how the locks are installed in the mast.

 

Bill

post-7277-0-73182700-1393589814_thumb.jpg

post-7277-0-68972200-1393589869_thumb.jpg

Masthead_diagram.pdf

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Halyard lock fixed?

 

The lock has arrived in St. Maarten and with some luck will go back into the rig on Saturday to be tested under load.

 

In the end the major issue seems to movement of the lock body inside the mast due to an incorrect fastener, with the result that under load their was too much side force on the "bullet" for it to release.

 

A few photos of the lock in the test stand and the "wrong fastener" are attached. The masthead blueprint is included to give an idea of how the locks are installed in the mast.

 

Bill

 

For want of a correctly sized screw...

 

Thanks for posting pics and the diagram though, cool to see how it all goes together

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For those who are interested in such things, attached is the CSA rating certificate. Otra Vez was measured today.

 

For comparison:

 

Carkeek 40: IRC 1.270, CSA 1.130

Marten 49: IRC 1.251, CSA 1.091

Otra Vez: IRC 1.261, CSA 1.114

 

So its in the ball park for similar boats.

 

Bill

 

Otra Ves measurement_id=8467 (1).pdf

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Congrats on the 2nd place overall at the Heineken! Is there a regatta report in the works?

Of course....give me another day or two. Otra Vez was the first boat shown in the drone video and there is a good shot of a gybe a few minutes in as well.

 

And the halyard locks were flawless all regatta.

 

Bill

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^^^^I want your job.

professional Rocky mountain Oyster salesman........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

actually one of NYC's Bravest. He deserves time off when he can

 

 

^^^^I want your job.

professional Rocky mountain Oyster salesman........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

actually one of NYC's Bravest. He deserves time off when he can

ps. Par Avion....got to come check out the new family cruising boat this spring

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Wetted surface area....you can see why they say "sail her flat"!!

+1 Nice to get a different angle.

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Congrats on the 2nd place overall at the Heineken! Is there a regatta report in the works?

Of course....give me another day or two. Otra Vez was the first boat shown in the drone video and there is a good shot of a gybe a few minutes in as well.

 

And the halyard locks were flawless all regatta.

 

Bill

She looks even better in motion! Beautiful boat.

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Congrats on the 2nd place overall at the Heineken! Is there a regatta report in the works?

Of course....give me another day or two. Otra Vez was the first boat shown in the drone video and there is a good shot of a gybe a few minutes in as well.

 

And the halyard locks were flawless all regatta.

 

Bill

congrats bill, i clicked on the video hoping to see the blue !! fukker rips!

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Gills Commodore Cup/Heineken Regatta Report

 

1. I heard many stories of great parties, jealous strippers, and general debauchery....But I know NOTHING....and the crew was always at the boat at 07:15 ready to go.

 

2. Overall scoreline was 2, 2, 2, 2, 1 across the Gill Commodores Cup and the Heineken regatta. Highland Fling XII a Reichel/Pugh 52 had 1,1,1,1,2 and took first overall.

 

3. Kudo's to David Shriner and the boat prep team. Otra Vez was in immaculate form and ready to go from the first bell. I had been worried about the draft of OV versus the water around the Marina, but we never had an issue getting from the lagoon to racecourse. We were able to get the container onto the Marina grounds, no more than 50 meters from the boat, which was a minor miracle on its own. Ray the dockmaster was a great help. The container has air-con and a dehumidifier which allowed sails to dry and the team to work in comfort as needed throughout the regatta.

 

4. The Heineken/Commodore combo is a great regatta. The water is amazing, when the trades are blowing you have wind, waves, and water over the deck in HUGE quantities. The social side is the best of any regatta that I have ever attended, so if you even have the slightest twitch, just go for it.

 

5. What worked.... the boat prep....while it took a while to diagnose and repair the main halyard lock, it worked perfectly every time. The change of 3:1 to 4:1 purchase on the runners made life much easier for the back of the boat team. We were at max runner (11K lbs on the forestay) a fair amount during the regatta. Having the designer (Simon Schofield from Ker) onboard for the regatta was a revelation in learning why the boat behaves the way she does. Simon has an amazing attitude and while he was the navigator on paper, he was the first to jump to give a hand on the bow, grind, or just slap the sail when the telltales were stuck. And most important of all, the never quit attitude of team Otra Vez. We were pretty sloppy on the race course a few times, but we never gave up, and the race on Sunday, which had every imaginable condition, was all about concentrating, keeping the boat moving, and everyone doing whatever is needed, even if it means being inside the boat, in the bow, in what can only be described as a carbon fiber dungeon for a long time during the light air.

 

6. What didn't work....complexity....we were sloppy and lost a lot of time the first 3 days because we gave ourselves too many options, most of which were not properly practiced. Otra Vez has more sails than most nations have people and sometimes thats not a good thing. When you look at the courses and the weather, you end up with fractional code zero, masthead code zero, an A3, and A2, an A1.5, staysails and more staysails, along with 3 or more jibs. The code sails are on furlers which is simple in some ways and terribly complicated in others, especially when you are in the washing machine at the top of the island, already traveling 14-15 knots with a main, jib and genoa staysail and you are trying to get the furler to the end of the sprit, the halyard on lock....All these machinations take time, and when a leg is 15-20 minutes at the speeds we were already going it is a recipe for a clusterfuck and we got it twice, when the codes only partially unfurled, could not re-furl, and had to manhandled to the deck....which means 4-5 people on the bow, losing concentration on the driving, etc.

 

On Sunday, I used my owners perogative card to banish most of the sails from the boat. Not only did it dramatically change the discourse on board by eliminating most of options, it allowed us to focus only on sailing the boat. Losing all the extra weight was also a strong plus on what turned out to be a very light air day. And oddly enough we won!

 

7. This was our second regatta racing the boat, and we continue to make positive steps (even if they feel like baby steps). Our Gybes are crisper our tacks got better, and by the last day we had found a better upwind mode as the computer told us we were sailing a bit fat previously. It took the right mix of rig tune, sail selection, weight placement, and my just accepting that there is a never too much feel in the helm. We had installed a rudder angle sensor after Key West, and this little bit of data tells a story upwind that I didn't really appreciate before.

 

8. As I and others have said before, the boat is wet, wet, wet and fast, fast, fast. We were routinely in the 17's and 18's on Friday and Saturday, and had a brief time over 20 in the flat water of the Anguilla channel. While Jay was driving I was standing at the back it looked like we had a foot of water running off the back at times....

 

9. Nothing broken, nobody hurt, great racing, and a pretty good result that the win on Sunday made much better.

 

So to Huey, Ben, Janet, Simon, Kevin, Beatrice, Vince, PK, Jay, Mike, Dave, Alex I say thank you for an amazing time and a great finish.

 

Bill

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Bill, thanks for the continued updates. It's fun to track the progress of Team OV from way up here in the frozen North. Looking forward to warmer times.

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Thursday's races were Gill Cup W/L's, so sail selection was easy. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday were point to point around the island type of races with various angles, wind conditions, and seas. Otra Vez (Kerr 43) being such a technical boat has many options as Bill pointed out above for sail selectioin. We attempted to utilize staysails, MH Code 0, Frac Code 0, and various spinnakers. Many mistakes were made and time lost in attempting to put these up and take them down. The consensus was we needed more practice and experience with hosting and peeling on Otra Vez to become proficient with the inventory. Bill's choice for Sunday made it easy to concentrate on pure sailing. speed, tactics, and reading the weather. It proved to be the right call. Our primary competition was a "VERY" well sailed boat called Highland Fling with local Peter Gilmore on board. They nearly swept the class except for our win on Sunday. Congratulations to them for their hard earned victory.

 

I'm quite proud of where we have come in such a short time. We are all looking forward to the rest of the year and continuing to get better as a team. There is no doubt in our minds that we have "The Weapon" and are only limited by our own skill set.

 

BTW, Thanks Bill for a great ride!

 

H

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Just a quick update...

 

Otra Vez is in Newport getting ready for the 160th Annual Regatta. She is based out of the Hinckley yard for the season and we are tackling quite a list of maintenance items.

 

The bobstay was due for change and I am glad we did, the pin on the hull side of the stay had a nice crack and wouldn't have lasted much longer. We are building quite a list of "things that should be changed annually" and the bobstay pins will be added to it.

 

The keel has been on since Key West and after the upwind bashing in St Barths a torque check was in order. We are lucky in that we have all the equipment to do this in a calibrated and professional fashion. In the end every bolt needed at least 1/8 of a turn to get back to the specified torque values.

 

The vang is getting a re-designed sheave box at the mast base and the carbon fabrication should start today.

 

Rgds,

 

Bill

 

 

post-7277-0-31713900-1401693556_thumb.jpeg

post-7277-0-82544800-1401693593_thumb.jpg

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And to think we took 3rd in that race, and the gap to 2nd was 3 seconds and first all of 9 seconds.....last second call to change from right gate, right turn to left gate left turn, not enough tension on the takedown line..and what you see is what you get. Spin was repaired and back on the boat for the next's days racing.

 

The Copa del Rey is an amazing regatta. Maybe the best I have ever done. We sailed Otra Vez well, nearly took first from a TP-52, and had a great time off the water.

 

Next regatta is the Middle Sea Race. New fin/bulb being built, trying to take 800-900 kgs out of the boat to give her a little more performance when the wind is less than 16 knots.

 

Weldox700 Fin, with carbon shells, lead bulb, CNC machined to final shape.

 

Deeper draft, lighter bulb, more efficient foil shape, less drag, a bit more righting moment...hopefully equals 2-3% more performance under 16 knots.

 

Bill

 

post-7277-0-67290400-1439370382_thumb.jpg

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The old keel came off today, going to Longitud Cero tomorrow in the AM where they will weigh it to confirm the calculations from the laser scan, then separate and re-machine the bulb to its new profile.

 

Bill

 

post-7277-0-71311700-1439386832_thumb.jpg

 

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And to think we took 3rd in that race, and the gap to 2nd was 3 seconds and first all of 9 seconds.....last second call to change from right gate, right turn to left gate left turn, not enough tension on the takedown line..and what you see is what you get. Spin was repaired and back on the boat for the next's days racing.

 

The Copa del Rey is an amazing regatta. Maybe the best I have ever done. We sailed Otra Vez well, nearly took first from a TP-52, and had a great time off the water.

 

Next regatta is the Middle Sea Race. New fin/bulb being built, trying to take 800-900 kgs out of the boat to give her a little more performance when the wind is less than 16 knots.

 

Weldox700 Fin, with carbon shells, lead bulb, CNC machined to final shape.

 

Deeper draft, lighter bulb, more efficient foil shape, less drag, a bit more righting moment...hopefully equals 2-3% more performance under 16 knots.

 

Bill

 

attachicon.gifBulb_andFin.jpg

 

Wasn't the boats original design brief to be a light wind irc killer? The daily sail article on the first page even quotes it to be so. So what changed from then to now?

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The old keel came off today, going to Longitud Cero tomorrow in the AM where they will weigh it to confirm the calculations from the laser scan, then separate and re-machine the bulb to its new profile.

 

Bill

 

attachicon.gifOld_OVkeel_2.jpg

 

Ximo and the boys at Longitud Cero are awesome, serious talent in that shop.

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Wasn't the boats original design brief to be a light wind irc killer? The daily sail article on the first page even quotes it to be so. So what changed from then to now?

 

It was and is successful in very light air. But to understand why we are making the changes you have to think about some of the boat characteristics and also what is happening in the regattas we compete when it comes to class breaks and competition.

 

At present she is relatively heavy (DLR 114) compared to the newest 40 footers, has low wetted surface at low heel angles, small high aspect mainsail, smallish jibs, long sprit for big kites, and bow down trim to take advantage of some peculiarities in the IRC rule at the time.

 

Translating into performance, in very light air (0-5 knots) where you can keep her heel angle around 2 degrees, the low wetted surfaces dominates and she does very well. Once you get into the 5-10 knot range and she leans over to lengthen the water line and put her hull flare to work the lack of horsepower in the main and jib become an issue. NYYC Race Week in 2014 and ORC Worlds this year were great examples of this problem although we see this issue everytime we go upwind in the 5-10 knot range. Once we get over 10 knots upwind she just gets better and better. Downwind, we suffer in the transition zone to planing. The newer, lighter boats like the Carkeek 40 will leave us in the 13-16 knot range. Once we get to 16 its a bit easier, but we still are pulling around relatively more weight.

 

So, what we are trying to improve is the hp/weight ratio by lowering displacement by 15% roughly. We also expect the more efficient (higher aspect fin and more accurate foil section) underwater package to help with upwind performance in the 5-10 knot range. The CFD runs are showing we should see improved performance upwind all the way to 16 knots. Downwind, we want to get into planing mode at 13.5 or 14 rather than 16-17 knots. The hull shape is not the ideal planing hull as low wetted surface in light air was a specification.

 

The other issue is how the classes are working out in the regattas where we compete. At the moment, if you want to win in IRC 1, you need to have a TP52. They are lumping the "faster 40's" most of which are fully pro crewed up with the bigger boats rather than with the 40 ft racer cruisers, who for good reason dont really want to compete with the 40-45' racing boats. In the copa del rey, IRC 1 was 2 TP52's, 2 swan 601's, a swan 80, 2 gp42's, a Soto 48, and Otra Vez. With the go left racetrack in the bay of Palma, the smaller boats always have to overstand the port layline to get clear air and you lose valuable time in doing so. Downwind, the the more powerful TP52's have clear air and better speed. If you sail your 43 footer perfectly you have a chance, if you don't, even a less well sailed 52 will beat you everytime.

 

As I don't see the class break situation changing anytime soon, the question was bite the bullet and upscale to a '52, or see if we could ring the last ounce of extra performance from what is by all accounts a great hullshape. I must also say, OV was built exceptionally well by Salthouse in New Zealand, and I don't think I could ever own a finer boat than this one. So here we are. We should be back sailing in about 5 weeks if the project schedule is kept, OV will have a draft increase of roughly 40 cm to 3.2meters, a displacement roughly 900 kgs less, a more neutral trim (less bow down) with her current sailplan.

 

Bill

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Wasn't the boats original design brief to be a light wind irc killer? The daily sail article on the first page even quotes it to be so. So what changed from then to now?

 

It was and is successful in very light air. But to understand why we are making the changes you have to think about some of the boat characteristics and also what is happening in the regattas we compete when it comes to class breaks and competition.

 

At present she is relatively heavy (DLR 114) compared to the newest 40 footers, has low wetted surface at low heel angles, small high aspect mainsail, smallish jibs, long sprit for big kites, and bow down trim to take advantage of some peculiarities in the IRC rule at the time.

 

Translating into performance, in very light air (0-5 knots) where you can keep her heel angle around 2 degrees, the low wetted surfaces dominates and she does very well. Once you get into the 5-10 knot range and she leans over to lengthen the water line and put her hull flare to work the lack of horsepower in the main and jib become an issue. NYYC Race Week in 2014 and ORC Worlds this year were great examples of this problem although we see this issue everytime we go upwind in the 5-10 knot range. Once we get over 10 knots upwind she just gets better and better. Downwind, we suffer in the transition zone to planing. The newer, lighter boats like the Carkeek 40 will leave us in the 13-16 knot range. Once we get to 16 its a bit easier, but we still are pulling around relatively more weight.

 

So, what we are trying to improve is the hp/weight ratio by lowering displacement by 15% roughly. We also expect the more efficient (higher aspect fin and more accurate foil section) underwater package to help with upwind performance in the 5-10 knot range. The CFD runs are showing we should see improved performance upwind all the way to 16 knots. Downwind, we want to get into planing mode at 13.5 or 14 rather than 16-17 knots. The hull shape is not the ideal planing hull as low wetted surface in light air was a specification.

 

The other issue is how the classes are working out in the regattas where we compete. At the moment, if you want to win in IRC 1, you need to have a TP52. They are lumping the "faster 40's" most of which are fully pro crewed up with the bigger boats rather than with the 40 ft racer cruisers, who for good reason dont really want to compete with the 40-45' racing boats. In the copa del rey, IRC 1 was 2 TP52's, 2 swan 601's, a swan 80, 2 gp42's, a Soto 48, and Otra Vez. With the go left racetrack in the bay of Palma, the smaller boats always have to overstand the port layline to get clear air and you lose valuable time in doing so. Downwind, the the more powerful TP52's have clear air and better speed. If you sail your 43 footer perfectly you have a chance, if you don't, even a less well sailed 52 will beat you everytime.

 

As I don't see the class break situation changing anytime soon, the question was bite the bullet and upscale to a '52, or see if we could ring the last ounce of extra performance from what is by all accounts a great hullshape. I must also say, OV was built exceptionally well by Salthouse in New Zealand, and I don't think I could ever own a finer boat than this one. So here we are. We should be back sailing in about 5 weeks if the project schedule is kept, OV will have a draft increase of roughly 40 cm to 3.2meters, a displacement roughly 900 kgs less, a more neutral trim (less bow down) with her current sailplan.

 

Bill

 

Thanks so much for the update! Always very informative and a pleasure to read! Wish you and Otra Vez much luck with the current improvements. Keep the updates coming! Sucks the way current class breakdown is working out. TP 52's are sick rides, but then the expenses are astronomical and the competition, like Jeff Bezos, etc, basically has unlimited funding.

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Currently at 1.253 with 3 spins and slightly smaller spinnaker than normal (218 v 225 sq meter).

 

Trial cert came in at 1.279 with the same sailplan. I expect we will end up at 1.280-1.285 when all is said and done as the new A2 will be back to full size and the main will be ever so slightly bigger than the current one.

 

At 1.279 versus the 1.253 the light OV owes the heavy OV 74 seconds an hour or roughly 2.05%. A TP52 at 1.394 will owe the new OV 5 min 24 seconds and hour.

 

Another comparison is the new Botin 44 Interlodge which is 13.40 LOA vs 13.30 LOA of OV is 1.311 or thereabouts.

 

Bill

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The old keel came off today, going to Longitud Cero tomorrow in the AM where they will weigh it to confirm the calculations from the laser scan, then separate and re-machine the bulb to its new profile.

 

Bill

 

attachicon.gifOld_OVkeel_2.jpg

 

Nice upgrade Bill, looking forward to seeing the end result.

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I am sure you have run the numbers, but how much of a hit do the mods bring into the rating picture?

could have done the same with a bolt on shoe

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I am sure you have run the numbers, but how much of a hit do the mods bring into the rating picture?

could have done the same with a bolt on shoe
How do you make a bulb smaller by bolting a shoe on to it? Magic?

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I am sure you have run the numbers, but how much of a hit do the mods bring into the rating picture?

could have done the same with a bolt on shoe

Please feel free to post up your extensive knowledge on the current boat and your review of what should be done to optimise the boat for the current program.

 

Failing that, your last program will do.

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I am sure you have run the numbers, but how much of a hit do the mods bring into the rating picture?

could have done the same with a bolt on shoe
How do you make a bulb smaller by bolting a shoe on to it? Magic?

It's just a Wes based sock puppet.

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Once you engage a designer in the process of optimizing the list of suggestions is very long. I am not the type who supports too much change at once because you can lose track of what the causes of good or bad outcomes are. But as we have the boat without rig and keel for a month, our boatbuilder is going to remove the two interior modules (galley and toilet) that are currently in the boat and are nice to look at but impede traffic flow and make sail movements more difficult. As they are standalone modules and just taped to the hull, so removal will be quick. We will add some more effective storage and waterproofing around the up/downs for the jib and use a curtain to isolate the head. The boat will be more open inside, and given we can proceed at a normal pace, the fit and finish post removal will be equal or better to current (the boatbuilder is really good). We will weigh everything as it comes out and that weight will be added to bulb.

 

Other items on the designer wish list....that we will be doing in the near term.

 

1) Re-template and refair the rudder (he wanted to chop off 300mm but i said no)

2) Move jib tracks inboard for tighter sheeting angles (it appears that 4 degrees is what is needed these days) ** after middle sea race

3) Complete the ring frame under the tracks to support the move inboard, this will also make for a stiffer boat in general

4) run the rig with more rake (3.5deg versus current max rake of 2.75) **this re-tune will occur after middle sea race as sail recuts will be needed

5) new forward hatch for offshore.

 

As nothing is exact in the world of CFD we are going to have the bulb built with a forward and aft mounting option. The extreme nose down nature of the boat will get resolved by lightening the boat (it will float 3.5 cm higher in the water and the bow will rotate up in the process) to some extent, but we will also move the bulb 10cm aft from its current position. In the case that the boat is too bow up, we may not have the knuckle immersed properly upwind so we want the option to slide the bulb back forward.

 

While the engineer in me enjoys all of this, i must admit that the effort to find a 0.5% difference between rating and speed is ridiculously expensive. You can't win without it unfortunately.

 

And for my mini-rant on rating systems....I thought ORCi in the end was quite hard on OV compared to IRC and to prove the point of boats optimized for ratings. There is a beautiful 2014 Soto 48, Kuan Kun, that rates nearly level (19 seconds/hr she owes OV) in ORCi and in IRC she owes OV approximately 4 minutes an hour. The huge delta is simply an IRC optimized boat to and ORC optimized boat. If you sail your boat well you may be able to live with a 30-40 sec difference per hour, but 4 minutes, impossible.

 

Bill

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I am sure you have run the numbers, but how much of a hit do the mods bring into the rating picture?

could have done the same with a bolt on shoe
How do you make a bulb smaller by bolting a shoe on to it? Magic?

It's just a Wes based sock puppet.

 

Whatever happened to him?

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We are in full on work mode, with the boat modifications. Keel is expected to be finished with 14 days and interior and rudder work is ongoing.

 

A few photos of the removal of the interior toilet module and galley module.

 

post-7277-0-23956900-1441836245_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-94209400-1441836245_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-40752100-1441836246_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-87178600-1441836246_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-31374400-1441836247_thumb.jpg

 

 

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