opusone

Ker 43 Ptarmigan

Recommended Posts

To answer several of the questions posed...

 

The "make it lighter" mod was done to Tonnerre and to "Catapult" the Ker 40. What we are doing is similar in scope. We are not changing the hull shape at all, just the fin and bulb are getting reworked.

 

As to the question of Carkeek, given the short time frame it made more sense to have someone "local" do the work. Sean is based in Palma where OV is for the remainder of the season. He is able to go down to the boat and check on progress of the mods and talk to the boatbuilders and my boat captain face to face, which makes things easier. The CFD/VPP work was started from a clean slate. The hull and appendages were laser scanned, and the bulb/fin weighed independently for verification. Then a vpp run was made on the current boat, and then many iterations were made varying displacement, draft, trim, etc to find the optimum of rating versus speed. So when looking at the numbers in the table a few posts ago, they are numbers from the base boat as run by CDP versus the new configuration. We have a lot of data on OV and how she performs across the spectrum and the proposed numbers were the best fit for what we were looking for. As i noted before, we are not changing the hull shape. Just the trimming the bow up, improving the efficiency of the foils, and taking some weight out, while keeping a slightly higher RM. The sailplan is unaltered as well.

 

Kemah has been the home port of the Otra Vez, program since 2006, but the current version with 10 ft draft is not suitable for Galvestion Bay. OV usually circulates between KWRW, the Caribbean and then Newport for the summers.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What/Who's VPP is Carkeek using?

 

Sorry for the Questions, just interested to see how the real world numbers stack up as the 47 and 60 were a bit off the pace regarding VPP work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Black Betty. It is WA based but went and did east coast Regatta.

 

The other GP 42 Dirty Deeds is getting there, Less consistent but able to knock off BB now and then.

 

The problem is they suck upwind offshore. W/L is ok. but if you get some waves and breeze on, they cant sail to rating and prone to damage.

 

Ie Black Betty does the 220nm down wind leg of the Fremantle to Gero Race. But has not done the Return, Historically Upwind leg since they tried the first time and did damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Black Betty. It is WA based but went and did east coast Regatta.

 

The other GP 42 Dirty Deeds is getting there, Less consistent but able to knock off BB now and then.

 

The problem is they suck upwind offshore. W/L is ok. but if you get some waves and breeze on, they cant sail to rating and prone to damage.

 

Ie Black Betty does the 220nm down wind leg of the Fremantle to Gero Race. But has not done the Return, Historically Upwind leg since they tried the first time and did damage.

Lets clarify,

Nothing on Black Betty Structural broke on that race or any other race, only one glass stanchion on the port side.

Half the crew went down due serve seasick so the boat was nursed home. We were racing a season. The following week, 3 of our competition where unable to compete due to damage sustained.

We have never done the return race since, because we don't like it and the owner is unable to sail the return leg due to major Spinal Issues, which is no secret.

 

How many times have you had to retire MSA due to incompetence ??? You should be able to add another retirement to your ever failing reputation in 6 weeks, also I really hope you enjoy your race to Eden on the 26th Dec.

 

Please before you type, think.....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Black Betty. It is WA based but went and did east coast Regatta.

 

The other GP 42 Dirty Deeds is getting there, Less consistent but able to knock off BB now and then.

 

The problem is they suck upwind offshore. W/L is ok. but if you get some waves and breeze on, they cant sail to rating and prone to damage.

 

Ie Black Betty does the 220nm down wind leg of the Fremantle to Gero Race. But has not done the Return, Historically Upwind leg since they tried the first time and did damage.

Lets clarify,

Nothing on Black Betty Structural broke on that race or any other race, only one glass stanchion on the port side.

Half the crew went down due serve seasick so the boat was nursed home. We were racing a season. The following week, 3 of our competition where unable to compete due to damage sustained.

We have never done the return race since, because we don't like it and the owner is unable to sail the return leg due to major Spinal Issues, which is no secret.

 

How many times have you had to retire MSA due to incompetence ??? You should be able to add another retirement to your ever failing reputation in 6 weeks, also I really hope you enjoy your race to Eden on the 26th Dec.

 

Please before you type, think.....

 

 

I get you're having a whinge because you sail on the boat. But the shipwright that did repairs after the race tells a different story.

The Fact is, a GP 42 (without major structural mods, like Dirty Deeds) is an inshore/downwind boat. The same as a TP 52 needs core replacement and extra laminate to be a successful, strong boat upwind when the going gets tough. Its the Nature of the beast.

All GP's that race offshore have do it, As have all TP's.

Horses for courses. You can argue until you are Black and Blue in the face, but its true.

And the Year a Bulkhead fractured while we were leading the race and the Overall Offshore Championship, toughing it out in 40.. Well we backed that one up, by doing the same race 6 months later and Winning.. This is the same Race BB does not enter. I think it is the best race in the series, a true test of Seamanship.

I know the owners Spine condition, I have the same Autoimmune disease, It is debilitating and fucking frustrating. I'm just lucky they have injections to slow down the disc damage these days.

 

But nice to know I touched on a Nerve there and you needed to get personal. Stay Classy...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Black Betty. It is WA based but went and did east coast Regatta.

 

The other GP 42 Dirty Deeds is getting there, Less consistent but able to knock off BB now and then.

 

The problem is they suck upwind offshore. W/L is ok. but if you get some waves and breeze on, they cant sail to rating and prone to damage.

 

Ie Black Betty does the 220nm down wind leg of the Fremantle to Gero Race. But has not done the Return, Historically Upwind leg since they tried the first time and did damage.

Lets clarify,

Nothing on Black Betty Structural broke on that race or any other race, only one glass stanchion on the port side.

Half the crew went down due serve seasick so the boat was nursed home. We were racing a season. The following week, 3 of our competition where unable to compete due to damage sustained.

We have never done the return race since, because we don't like it and the owner is unable to sail the return leg due to major Spinal Issues, which is no secret.

 

How many times have you had to retire MSA due to incompetence ??? You should be able to add another retirement to your ever failing reputation in 6 weeks, also I really hope you enjoy your race to Eden on the 26th Dec.

 

Please before you type, think.....

 

 

I get you're having a whinge because you sail on the boat. But the shipwright that did repairs after the race tells a different story.

The Fact is, a GP 42 (without major structural mods, like Dirty Deeds) is an inshore/downwind boat. The same as a TP 52 needs core replacement and extra laminate to be a successful, strong boat upwind when the going gets tough. Its the Nature of the beast.

All GP's that race offshore have do it, As have all TP's.

Horses for courses. You can argue until you are Black and Blue in the face, but its true.

And the Year a Bulkhead fractured while we were leading the race and the Overall Offshore Championship, toughing it out in 40.. Well we backed that one up, by doing the same race 6 months later and Winning.. This is the same Race BB does not enter. I think it is the best race in the series, a true test of Seamanship.

I know the owners Spine condition, I have the same Autoimmune disease, It is debilitating and fucking frustrating. I'm just lucky they have injections to slow down the disc damage these days.

 

But nice to know I touched on a Nerve there and you needed to get personal. Stay Classy...

 

I am glad you believe yourself....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought this thread was about Otra Vez? You two wankers can go shit on yourselves and continue your dick swinging contest somewhere else. The rest of us would like to keep this to Bill's pictures and commentaries on the adventures and modifications of his beautiful boat.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought this thread was about Otra Vez? You two wankers can go shit on yourselves and continue your dick swinging contest somewhere else. The rest of us would like to keep this to Bill's pictures and commentaries on the adventures and modifications of his beautiful boat.

 

Thanks

thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are less than a month to the start of the RMSR...and the mods are nearing completion. The interior work is basically done and the affected areas were repainted last week. A few photos are attached. The rudder fairing is also complete. We found some minor delamination near the tip which we took the opportunity to repair.

 

Sean is going to Longitud Cero this week to inspect the finished keel prior to shipping. With some luck we will have her installed by the weekend. There will be some time spent to ensure proper alingnment of the keel and rig, then some sea trials, a new measurement for IRC and then straight to Malta.

 

Exciting times ahead.

 

Bill

 

post-7277-0-07392600-1442855130_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-47538500-1442855130_thumb.jpg

post-7277-0-67532200-1442855182_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The current plan is to head to South Florida after the Middle Sea Race....

 

We have experienced some delays on the keel but we are still making good progress. The fin arrived this morning in Palma, and fit better than we were expecting on the flange, she is being vacuum bagged as i type this...The bulb will arrive on Monday at 8 am. A small team from Longitud Cero is arriving Sunday to finalize the bulb installation and final fair/paint/sand of the entire keel/bulb structure.

 

The rudder is finished and painted in durapox white.

 

With some luck Keel/bulb will be together Monday, rig in on Tuesday, final paint/sand/fair finished on Wednesday, IRC measurement Wed/Thur and sea trials on Fri/Sat.

 

Here a few photos...

 

post-7277-0-87464300-1443289257_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-96121400-1443289327_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-15771000-1443289478_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No rest on Sunday for team OV....David Shriner (boat captain) and our boatbuilders along with the team from Longitud Cero are hard at it today.

 

The first coat of hi-build were sprayed and faired on the fin, the end of the sprit was modifed to make the 2:1 tackline more stable under the high load of the FR0, and the rig is being put into Category 2 mode (installed tri-color, vhf and AIS antenna's). The bulb left LC this afternoon and will at the yard at 8 am tommorrow.

 

post-7277-0-34143000-1443374950_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-40509000-1443374960_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-33181300-1443374980_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-61900300-1443374992_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-14479500-1443375014_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-35037700-1443375061_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who does your sails for you, what is in your wardrobe?

Full Quantum inventory...

J1, J1.5, J2, J3, J3.5, J4, SS, GS, Drifter, JT

A1.5, A2, A2.5, A3, A4, A7

MH0, FR0

Inshore Main

Offshore Main

 

Most are 2015 vintage...

 

Sails are photographed and analysed constantly . For optimum IRC rating you need to remeasure the sails before each big regatta. We have recut all the january 2015 sails at least once to keep optimum shape.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Impressive program!

 

Can you give some more info on your .5 in between sails? Are they cut like the j1,a1 etc and just a heavier material to cover wider ranges offshore when allowable sails are limited or are you that dialed in on crossovers now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Who does your sails for you, what is in your wardrobe?

Full Quantum inventory...

J1, J1.5, J2, J3, J3.5, J4, SS, GS, Drifter, JT

A1.5, A2, A2.5, A3, A4, A7

MH0, FR0

Inshore Main

Offshore Main

 

Most are 2015 vintage...

 

Sails are photographed and analysed constantly . For optimum IRC rating you need to remeasure the sails before each big regatta. We have recut all the january 2015 sails at least once to keep optimum shape.

 

Bill

 

very classy buddy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When it launched that boat was meant to be the last word in IRC boats under fifty feet. Consistently updated and now with a nice little age allowance bump and it's an epic machine.

 

Bill, has moving the pedestal aft been toyed with at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

 

Didn't you previously mention that your original sail inventory for the boat was all North? 3Di main and jibs? Why the switch to Q? Just curious of your experience with the two and what you see as the major performance differences.

 

Thanks.

 

David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

 

Didn't you previously mention that your original sail inventory for the boat was all North? 3Di main and jibs? Why the switch to Q? Just curious of your experience with the two and what you see as the major performance differences.

 

Thanks.

 

David

After seeing the current prices for 3Di sails I would say that plus previous relationship with Q would have been a major factor.

 

The inventory for OV looks fantastic but I shudder to think how much it would cost getting all that from Norths.

 

I have no idea about the budget etc for Bill's program but might hazard a guess to say that if he'd gone the North/3Di path this current round of mods may not be as extensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i was doing some day labor a few years ago sanding a boat. Got to take a break to help the boat captain place the bulb (among other keel related projects). Was a lot of fun seeing how all that shit goes together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Bill,

 

Didn't you previously mention that your original sail inventory for the boat was all North? 3Di main and jibs? Why the switch to Q? Just curious of your experience with the two and what you see as the major performance differences.

 

Thanks.

 

David

After seeing the current prices for 3Di sails I would say that plus previous relationship with Q would have been a major factor.

 

The inventory for OV looks fantastic but I shudder to think how much it would cost getting all that from Norths.

 

I have no idea about the budget etc for Bill's program but might hazard a guess to say that if he'd gone the North/3Di path this current round of mods may not be as extensive.

I'm more curious as to the observed performance differences between the two sail manufacturers. While everyone has a budget, this seems to be a pretty top notch team, and I don't see them compromising the best available sails just to save a buck. Why go through all the modifications to the boat in an effort to improve its rating and not give it the best chance to sail to that rating.

 

If I remember correctly, the boat had a full set of Q's when Bill bought the boat, but he chose to outfit with North. Now he has what appears to be a very impressive set of Q's again. I'm just curious as to what were the major influences in changing back, and my hunch is cost is further down the list than you think.

 

Again, Bill, thanks for the pics and commentary. We all wish we could have as much fun as you and your team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We continue to plug away at it...the rig went in today and most of the interior detailing is finished.

 

If you have been down below on OV before you will be shocked at the more open and functional layout.

 

post-7277-0-49101200-1443546881_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-62483200-1443546938_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-72730900-1443546965_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-01305600-1443547062_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-13525200-1443547083_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maybe we can get the thread renamed ?

 

bill i dont see that tempurpedic i requested !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I'm really curious about the hollowness of the trailing edge of the fin. I was always told that was a no no but i guess it's like everything else. What was bad for ya is now good for ya...

 

Anyway Bill the boat just looks great and as always wish you guys all of the luck! cya jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And now for the moment of truth, the crane came today and she weighed....

 

 

post-7277-0-21648400-1443689201_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-51111800-1443689234_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-80247400-1443689270_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

Which is a saving of 700 kgs give or take a few (the bulb excluding the fin was 2780 kgs)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you allow people to use the head?

Some prefer the bucket...but yes, it does work and has been used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And now for the moment of truth, the crane came today and she weighed....

 

 

attachicon.gifIMG_1522.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_9018.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_7858.jpg

 

 

 

 

Which is a saving of 700 kgs give or take a few (the bulb excluding the fin was 2780 kgs)

Bill - what is the length of tyour sprit? Noticed boats are going longer now - Ker 50 was 10 feet, Ker 56 is now 12 feet, J 125's were always long at 8.5 feet.

 

Thanks,

opusone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And now for the moment of truth, the crane came today and she weighed....

 

 

attachicon.gifIMG_1522.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_9018.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_7858.jpg

 

 

 

 

Which is a saving of 700 kgs give or take a few (the bulb excluding the fin was 2780 kgs)

Bill - what is the length of tyour sprit? Noticed boats are going longer now - Ker 50 was 10 feet, Ker 56 is now 12 feet, J 125's were always long at 8.5 feet.

 

Thanks,

opusone

 

Just over 8 ft, OV has a longer STL than the Ker 46's that came after her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I'm really curious about the hollowness of the trailing edge of the fin. I was always told that was a no no but i guess it's like everything else. What was bad for ya is now good for ya...

 

Anyway Bill the boat just looks great and as always wish you guys all of the luck! cya jeff

 

my limited understanding is that hollow cavity aids in keeping the flow laminar and re-attaching it on the back 30% of the foil when it starts to separate.

 

In looking at polars for these sections (some of the Epplers for example), if you are operating within the drag bucket these foils are a good 2 to 3 points lower in drag than a more conventional foil, and outside the performance penalty is negligible. The concern with these foil sections is they are a laminar foil, meaning they need to be built very accurately (to better than 99.9%), kept extremely fair, and are likely to suffer more of a performance hit if picking up weed or sailing in really nasty water. Tradeoffs I am sure the design team evaluated before recommending the section.

 

Really awesome program and it is fantastic to see the work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

post-7277-0-07597300-1443727243_thumb.jpeg

 

 

 

 

For those of you who know OV, you will realize what a huge difference the reduced displacement and bulb location have made...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had missed this thread, glad it came up on the front page.

 

Nice work on the old Ptarmigan, I actually sailed, and ran for a few months, the an older Ptarmigan (N/M43) back in the IMS40 days. Larry buys good boats....except maybe the 52 LOL. I loved the K43 from day one and I love the fact that you are putting the effort into her to keep her competitive....Nice work.

 

One question, are you guys still running the Ronstan Furlers?

 

Cheers,

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good luck from Clear Lake Shores Bill!

 

You should be able to press her harder in the heavy running and reaching. Mods look good. You are reminding me of the glory days of IOR racing.

 

Cheers,

 

Paolo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And now for the moment of truth, the crane came today and she weighed....

 

 

attachicon.gifIMG_1522.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_9018.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_7858.jpg

 

 

 

 

Which is a saving of 700 kgs give or take a few (the bulb excluding the fin was 2780 kgs)

Will be interesting to see what displacement ORCi comes up with if it's rated that way....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

attachicon.gifimage.jpeg

For those of you who know OV, you will realize what a huge difference the reduced displacement and bulb location have made...

So, how much has the bow knuckle raised?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So how much has all this cost ?

 

Keel fin & bulb, roughly 40K euros with re-machining of the existing bulb. We had quotes for new fin and new bulb that in some cases were closer to 100k euros. The interior mods and all the little bits of boatbuilding that have occurred in the past month were roughly 15k euros.

 

We sailed OV for 2 hours yesterday and 4 hours today. Our main objectives were to check out the boat mods effect on performance as well as fit the new offshore main to the boat. The new A2 also went up to check the design tweaks that have been made in the past 18 months.

 

Yesterday was "mainsail day", we spent 4 hours on the loft floor installing the luff cars, batten boxes, etc. Our late afterrnoon sail, then, was spent checking luff curves, batten tension, tack placement, and all the other adjustment to make sure we were happy with the shape of the sail. There was 13-16 knots and a bit of chop. Upwind the boat was on or over polars easily, but the software wasn't predicting much of a gain in this range upwind. On the jib reach back to the harbor, however, she felt dramatically better, we were nearly reaching the polars, which are assuming a Fr0, with a eased #3 jib and not yet well set main and the bow is much better behaved.

 

Today, we have 4 hours on the water in really light winds with a lumpy leftover swell. When we had 5-6 knots of breeze, the results were encouraging, she seemed to track upwind better and was .3-.4 kntos over the old polars consistenly. We did not have enough stabilty in the breeze to really get a feel a range of angles like we had hoped.

 

At this point:

 

New Offshore main: We like the shape, looks good.]

New A2; Slight desgin tweals met with great approval from our kite trimmer.

New fin and bulb: really too early to tell on rating v. speed, but the boat is noticeably more lively upwind in the 5-6 knot range, so the initial reaction is very positive.

 

Will post some photos later

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great mods and nice detailed overview here!

 

I saw Otra Vez at ORCi Worlds in Barcelona

Great looking boat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bow knuckle: 31mm over the water, maybe 65mm - 75 mm higher than before as ahe was always immersed previously.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.

All sails 2015 been recut? New spinn recut per Pro??? Trimming?

None of my business...best of luck in everything. .wrong sail designer/loft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.

All sails 2015 been recut? New spinn recut per Pro??? Trimming?

None of my business...best of luck in everything. .wrong sail designer/loft.

 

Interesting comment, and I understand how you might end up there. As someone noted above, when I bought OV I switched her key sails (main, jib, kites) to North as I had a very positive experience with North on my J122. After 12 months I went back to Quantum, as I learned if you have a true one-off boat, which OV is, the amount of effort in sail development is 100% on the program. There are no sisterships, no close relatives that the sailmakers can use to improve, only the data that is coming off of your boat, which as we learn to sail it, also changes what is the "ideal shape". I will give North credit, the 3Di (non-raw) have to be the most durable sails i have ever seen but the shapes were in a different design corner than what we ended up needing. Before making any changes to the program, the team spent 3 days last November testing every sail that we owned. We photo'ed, digitized, discussed and agonized as a change of sailmakers again was going to incur a fairly large expense that wasn't planned for. In the end, the design route that Quantum had started down was chosen. We have ended up with sails that are much flatter ( See photo below) than you might suspect prudent but with the older fin package at 11 knots it was what we needed, but we sacrificed some light air grunt in the process.

 

As for the recuts, sails are "living objects", they shrink, they stretch, they change. We are not looking for an ok sail shape at each regatta, but a nearly perfect one. We photo every sail we use every day (with a smartphone, nothing else needed), they are sent to Quantum and analyzed and we adjust the sails as necessary in order to maintain the best performance possible. Quantum has been fantastically supportive of my program in this way and we dialog with them constantly.

 

At the end of the day, you could do a little less, but you will give up something. We are winning and losing races by seconds/hr and keeping the sails in top shape is a very small investment in the total cost of the program.

 

I am sure North does the same with its top programs.

 

Bill

 

 

post-7277-0-21882500-1443960271_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do you mostly sail with pro's on this boat?

It depends on the regatta. I have invested in more pro's this year than in the past 10 years combined,but it was part of our goal to truly understand the potential of the boat and find the best way to sail her. Ideally for a boat of this size and the type of sailing I do, a core team of 4 pros and 8 amateurs should get you what you want.

 

One caveat, we have sailed OV all in the US, in the Caribbean, and in Europe this year, and when you can't have the local practice, and the regattas all involve a week plus of crew time, its hard to get enough amateurs together for an entire year due to their own time/job/financial constraints.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those interested in hull shapes... I can't imagine you can find a much greater contrast. OV is very narrow on the WL, but with extreme hull flair above the static w/l in the aft 40%. Here are the bow shots...

 

post-7277-0-26552400-1443961076_thumb.jpgpost-7277-0-00759500-1443961029_thumb.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do you mostly sail with pro's on this boat?

It would suck to have all of those refinements with a crap driver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing but respect for the approach you have taken with this passion. I hope the experience has been everything you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All that effort and you will get beaten by a jpk 10.10 or 10.80.

 

Oh well. As long as it's fun!

Time will tell, but that has not been my experience. We race a variety of courses, but w/l racetracks are the majority and our competition is more likely an IRC optimized Tp52, GP42, or Carkeek 40 than a J122,or JPK 10.80 or 10.10.

 

For the offshore races, the weather will often pick the favorite horse. In the C600 the chances of a JPK 10.10 or 10.80 winning are nearly zero. The course has a lot of upwind, power reaching, and running in relatively stronger average winds and the big boats usually win. I think if you have the budget to campaign it well and IRC optimized TP52 is the most likely to win answer. The mods we have made to OV were in the direction of being more competitive against a TP52 on speed v. rating rather than looking towards the smaller boats.

 

For the RMSR the weapon of choice has been a J122 or a TP52 in the recent past.

 

All we can do is sail her the best we can and lets the chips fall where they may.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the way you spend your money, mate. Cheers for being so open and honest about how it is all going.

 

All the best

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

I own a one off sport boat with a very narrow waterline and lots of flair like OV. We are very fast in under 5.5tws but struggle upwind until the breeze gets over 10. I am told it's because of the prismatic coefficients! Was this the issue you were having with OV? My obvious answer was more horsepower,bigger rig, but you seemed to opt for less weight

 

Without modifying, any suggestions for overcoming the increased drag when heeled in that wind range?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

I own a one off sport boat with a very narrow waterline and lots of flair like OV. We are very fast in under 5.5tws but struggle upwind until the breeze gets over 10. I am told it's because of the prismatic coefficients! Was this the issue you were having with OV? My obvious answer was more horsepower,bigger rig, but you seemed to opt for less weight

 

Without modifying, any suggestions for overcoming the increased drag when heeled in that wind range?

I am not sure I can offer you much advice. OV was designed as an IRC race boat, without much consideration for any other system. So she has a tall rig, small J, big STL, was trimmed nose down to take advantage the "y" measurement of the rule, and a smallish mainsail with a very high aspect. In the blend of these things and how IRC treats various parameters, we chose what we hope was the most fruitful answer (i.e. for IRC its better to lower displacement than increase upwind sail area was our conclusion). We have a lot of sailing and data gathering to do to see how this works in the 7-11 knot window where she was a bit weak upwind. Sailing to the target heel angles has always been the best answer for OV, and we expect them to be 2-3 degrees lower in the new configuration.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Otra Vez left Palma today for Malta. She is currently sailing in 18-19 TWS at 150 TWA, and making 13-16 knots under delivery main and A3 reacher and is at or above 100% of the old polar percentage downwind so good signs so far.

 

According to David the boat captain, she is also much better behaved (much less water over the deck) with the bow up.

 

As i was typing the new IRC certificate, arrived, and we are rating 1.277 in our current configuration.

 

When I bought the boat, we competed at KWRW in the old configuration at 1.261 so I am hopeful that we will be on the right side of the speed for rating curve.

 

Bill

 

post-7277-0-90923700-1444137904_thumb.jpg

 

38293 OTRA VEZ 151006_104252 END.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to see how OV would compare to our UK fleet of 3 GP42s carkeek 40mk 2, ker 40+, mc38 and ker 51 tonnerre when she's about

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

looks like you have B&G 5000

 

i've used them a bit, and the 3000 a lot on many different boats - with the time available, we typically don't have numbers that i am very happy with

 

I assume that in a program where you dot all the i's.., you also do as good a job as possible calibrating the instruments.

 

how happy are you generally with the numbers you are getting?

 

what BSP and heading sensors are you using?

 

how much effort is expended on keeping the numbers good?

 

is it something you are just spending a few minutes with the crew on during practices.., or are bringing in people regularly specifically to keep them working well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Bill,

I own a one off sport boat with a very narrow waterline and lots of flair like OV. We are very fast in under 5.5tws but struggle upwind until the breeze gets over 10. I am told it's because of the prismatic coefficients! Was this the issue you were having with OV? My obvious answer was more horsepower,bigger rig, but you seemed to opt for less weight

 

Without modifying, any suggestions for overcoming the increased drag when heeled in that wind range?

I am not sure I can offer you much advice. OV was designed as an IRC race boat, without much consideration for any other system. So she has a tall rig, small J, big STL, was trimmed nose down to take advantage the "y" measurement of the rule, and a smallish mainsail with a very high aspect. In the blend of these things and how IRC treats various parameters, we chose what we hope was the most fruitful answer (i.e. for IRC its better to lower displacement than increase upwind sail area was our conclusion). We have a lot of sailing and data gathering to do to see how this works in the 7-11 knot window where she was a bit weak upwind. Sailing to the target heel angles has always been the best answer for OV, and we expect them to be 2-3 degrees lower in the new configuration.

 

Bill

 

Was the change caused by a trend in Irc to treat lighter boats less unfavorably, or just a reevaluation of the rating/speed equation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there actually a trend towards fair treatment of light boats under 45', or is that just out wishful thinking again?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this thread is golden on many levels! i think it is very interesting to read what goes in to a high level program. I have sailed relatively high level programs myself with different teams throughout Europe, but this is a tad higher.

I also never had to worry about the boat prep. Now that i have my own boat, i find out what fun and PITA it is. It is really good to read your openness on cost and effort. Thanks for the insight!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It would be interesting to see how OV would compare to our UK fleet of 3 GP42s carkeek 40mk 2, ker 40+, mc38 and ker 51 tonnerre when she's about

Wouldn't be allowed in the fast 40 class. But would be interesting.

And it's 4 gp42's now. More to come! :-)

Why do you say that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Well damn. Seems odd to let in 42s that are faster than the Ker43 but what do I know.

 

Well. By that comment you clearly miss the point. Faster and smaller is the whole point of the class.

 

And you are not correct, the top rated boat is 1.267 at present.

 

The cutoffs for the Fast 40 are an IRC DLR below 110 and the max LH is 12.85 meters. At an LH of 13.30 we are a bit too long.

 

In 2015 we have competed against basically every type of fast 40 with the exception of the Ker 40+. In Key West (10 races) we finished 3.5 points out of first (Tonerre 4, the Ker 51) and 13 points ahead of third (Spookie, the Carkeek 40)

with a variety of boats in the rest of the fleet (Swan 42, J125, Mills 43, Kernan 47, etc). At the Copa Del Ray we finished 3 points out of first to a Tp52 and well clear of the 2 GP42's, Silva Neo and Team Vision Future. As stated before, it was the problem of competing with the IRC 52's that pushed us to make the mods not competiveness against of the growing fleet of "faster" 40's that are appearing.

 

If you compare to Spookie, OV has a significant upwind advantage that the Carkeek's DW legs can't overcome on a w/l racetrack. If the race is coastal or offshore with a lot of reaching or running, the Carkeek would leave us well behind in 12-16 knot conditions.

 

It is an intriguing prospect to bring OV to the UK after the RMSR.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a delivery update from the boat a few hours ago...

 

They had a good downwind run to the tip of Tunisia, had just passed Pantelleria, and less than 140 miles to go.

 

It looks like the weather has been ideal for the delivery as they racked up nearly 500nm in 48 hrs.

 

ETA is early morning tmrw in Malta.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like one of those "Buggerbuggerbuggerbugger. Why do I have to sit in an office to pay for my toys when others get all the fun...." (*) moments.

 

 

* Of course, if nobody sat in an office, nobody would get any fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like one of those "Buggerbuggerbuggerbugger. Why do I have to sit in an office to pay for my toys when others get all the fun...." (*) moments.

 

 

* Of course, if nobody sat in an office, nobody would get any fun.

So true!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Otra Vez left Palma today for Malta. She is currently sailing in 18-19 TWS at 150 TWA, and making 13-16 knots under delivery main and A3 reacher and is at or above 100% of the old polar percentage downwind so good signs so far.

 

According to David the boat captain, she is also much better behaved (much less water over the deck) with the bow up.

 

As i was typing the new IRC certificate, arrived, and we are rating 1.277 in our current configuration.

 

When I bought the boat, we competed at KWRW in the old configuration at 1.261 so I am hopeful that we will be on the right side of the speed for rating curve.

 

Bill

 

attachicon.gifDeliveryToMalta.jpg

 

attachicon.gif38293 OTRA VEZ 151006_104252 END.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill,

How much of a hit under IRC did you take for changing your headstay to carbon? When only the headstay is carbon and the remaining standing rigging is rod, how is that interpreted by the rule?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! Very impressive! Mods must be working! Would enjoy seeing more pics of the deck layout and rigging systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is there actually a trend towards fair treatment of light boats under 45', or is that just out wishful thinking again?

Wishful thinking. Must protect the fleet!

 

However at the top end of the classes a lot of people are moving to similar boats so those light weight 40 footers are doing OK.

 

And in the UK there is a class developing that has only the same type of light boats - still races under IRC but the assumption is that all are at least treated the same so it'd fair.

 

 

Perhaps if the trend to lighter, faster, more entertaining boats continues, protecting the fleet in IRC might result in fairness to non-bulldozer boats? Although the production yards will still have substantial clout ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congratulations on your result … it is always gratifying to see lots of hard work pay off.

Getting back to the sail inventory … could you elaborate on the development of the sail inventory, especially with respect to the “tweener” sails – the J1.5, the J3.5 and the A2.5. What is their design brief, wind range, material, etc

.

Building a custom inventory is an exercise in building sails with effective cross overs so I am interested in hearing how these sails fit into your overall inventory.

 

Thanks in advance for sharing your insights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites