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port tack

What 20fter class do we bet on?

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I was wondering about the size of the bulb. Thought I read in one early report that the VX had turtled after broaching, which I think is basically impossible in the Viper?

 

We turtled the VX last November at Lake Murray when we got hit with a small microburst barely a couple hundred feet off the dock. Not a broach, just a two-sail knockdown in bizarre conditions that left two crew standing on the tank, the sails firmly in the water and one person perched on the keel. She went over very slowly at that point, but did go over. Since then I've seen plenty of broaches, but no more turtles so far. I'm sure there will be some eventually, and I'm sure the Viper is more resistant to turtling than the VX, but it's by no means impossible because I've personally seen carbon-mast/heavy keel Vipers do it. But it's very rare and takes the right combination of wind, waves and current to pull it off. Plus someone standing on the down-side tank. Nevertheless, either model is very easy to right if things do get that bad and they come up dry and ready to carry on.

 

Both are about the same amount of wet upwind, and both are easy to drive downwind. Both generally self-rescue if you broach. Upwind, the Viper drives like a keelboat and the VX like a dinghy. Downwind the VX is carrying less crew weight, less boat weight, less rocker and less sail area so the loads are much lower. Again, more dinghy-like than the Viper. I sail and race both my Viper and my VX with my two pre-teen kids and they love both, but the VX is easier for us. The personalities of the two boats will appeal differently to different people - you should pick the one that matches yours.

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Well, I haven't yet sailed a VX, but I've been really happily surprised at how nicely the viper is to sail -- it's a nice middle ground between keelboat and dinghy. Yes it's not as helm sensitive as a dinghy like a Thistle (which I've sailed for 15 years) but you *have* to roll-tack the boat in lighter winds and be very crew-weight sensitive to be competitive, and generally speaking you trim the boat & sails like you would a dinghy.

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The used boat market for the U20 is still very active. Boats selling in the 19 - 24 range. They still hold their value very well. We had very good interest after the NA's in Pensacola this year adding 3 boats to the area. In the mountains I have 3 new owners who are loving the boat. You can take it out with the kids or S.O. and blast around then race Wednesday nights one design. The fleet travels and there are no shortage of events to go to.

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Junta,

 

Is the U20 drier than a V640 or Vx ? What about turtling ?

 

 

6924, I can answer that one. Yes, the U20 is much drier than both. Higher freeboard and the 'U' hull/deck joint sheds most of the water.

 

I used to own a U20 and sailed it extensively on SF Bay. Great heavy air boat, though the tin rig is a bit tweaky and needs a diligent eye on tuning to keep it in column (there is a new carbon option).

 

I hammered the crap out of my U20 and never even got close to turtling. Did many spreader washes and cleaned off a few windexes from the masthead. It has a 400lb keel, big butt and huge rudder. All keep it upright.

 

Frankly, the U20 is a much better boat for the average trailer sailor than the J70. It planes easy, has a generous cabin down below (for a 20 footer) and is superbly built. VERY much a small keelboat though. That's part of the beauty of it!

 

There's some VERY good news on the horizon for the U20 as well :ph34r:

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Junta,

 

Is the U20 drier than a V640 or Vx ? What about turtling ?

 

 

6924, I can answer that one. Yes, the U20 is much drier than both. Higher freeboard and the 'U' hull/deck joint sheds most of the water.

 

I used to own a U20 and sailed it extensively on SF Bay. Great heavy air boat, though the tin rig is a bit tweaky and needs a diligent eye on tuning to keep it in column (there is a new carbon option).

 

I hammered the crap out of my U20 and never even got close to turtling. Did many spreader washes and cleaned off a few windexes from the masthead. It has a 400lb keel, big butt and huge rudder. All keep it upright.

 

Frankly, the U20 is a much better boat for the average trailer sailor than the J70. It planes easy, has a generous cabin down below (for a 20 footer) and is superbly built. VERY much a small keelboat though. That's part of the beauty of it!

 

There's some VERY good news on the horizon for the U20 as well :ph34r:

 

Schoonerman attempted to wash the windex off my U20 during his first sport boat driving experience a few years back ;-) LOL I recall something was said about Oh geeze you need to drive these things with a quick hand on the helm given they move fast! HA HA

 

As for turtle only boats that have inverted without extreme conditions all were sailed without the keels bolted ie locked down. All were recovered with no issues though possibly some lost gear and wet sailors. The only U20 to turtle or get rolled 360 was a little over a year ago hit by the same storm that flipped the 38footer in the Mac Race. The U20 was participating in the GreenBay overnight race with three on board. It was after dark when they were hit by either a water spout or just 50+mph winds with full main up. The boat was rolled 360 crew was able to stabilize the boat and get the main down. The winds continued to batter them eventually rolling the boat again. The U20 has a large sealed front tank and rear sealed tank area designed to keep it floating level even with the cabin filled. The crew recovered a cell phone from the cabin after getting the boat upright again and called in their status to a local sheriff which sent out a boat to pick them up. While waiting for the pick up the bow began to sink due to a ruptured forward tank. All crew were rescued and the boat was recovered the next day floating stern up bow down and was racing again a few weeks later. Of all the 20footers out there the U20 is probably the most sea worthy of the bunch when it comes to being able to take a beating and still remain on the surface.

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I recall some owners during a hot windless day decided to test the stability factor on the U20. It took two big guys climbing the mast and a third hanging off the halyard to pull the boat over. Very different boat than the VX and Viper.

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50 knot squall in 20 foot boat ? At night ?

 

Am I to understand from this account that U20 has positive floatation ?

Does J/70 have positive floatation ?

 

 

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50 knot squall in 20 foot boat ? At night ?

 

Am I to understand from this account that U20 has positive floatation ?

Does J/70 have positive floatation ?

 

You are correct. Owner and crew are possibly one of the most experienced and traveled U20 sailors in the US. They never saw it coming due to it being dark out but they suspect they were hit by a water spout and for sure think the winds were in excess of 50 during the ordeal.

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We have pushed a little hard (involuntarily) on the VX. :D This time, going to the wrong side of the finish line and saved it at last minute on a crash gybe...no drama.

 

Weight on the rail: 335 lbs. (light for the overall crew weight and even more for those conditions):

 

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Why would you say the U20 is a better boat for the J70 for the average trailer sailor? Do you mean average by skill?

 

"it planes easily" - sounds like the J70 will too (and the J70 sounds like it's even quicker around the course)

"has a generous cabin down below" - J70 does too

"superbly built" - i doubt that it has any better construction than the 70 and in fact would put that in the 70's corner.

 

Big difference seems to be price, which would favor the U20. But dealer and factory support, J70 hands down. There will probably be more J70's on the water by the end of this year than there will ever be U20's so assuming the average trailer is interested in OD racing - more options nationally for the J70. I'd also suspect the J70 is a lot more forgiving to sail.

 

I've not sailed either boat - from your statement you've obviously spent time on both boats to be able to make such a definitive comparison. Interested in your experience sailing the 70.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Junta,

 

Is the U20 drier than a V640 or Vx ? What about turtling ?

 

 

6924, I can answer that one. Yes, the U20 is much drier than both. Higher freeboard and the 'U' hull/deck joint sheds most of the water.

 

I used to own a U20 and sailed it extensively on SF Bay. Great heavy air boat, though the tin rig is a bit tweaky and needs a diligent eye on tuning to keep it in column (there is a new carbon option).

 

I hammered the crap out of my U20 and never even got close to turtling. Did many spreader washes and cleaned off a few windexes from the masthead. It has a 400lb keel, big butt and huge rudder. All keep it upright.

 

Frankly, the U20 is a much better boat for the average trailer sailor than the J70. It planes easy, has a generous cabin down below (for a 20 footer) and is superbly built. VERY much a small keelboat though. That's part of the beauty of it!

 

There's some VERY good news on the horizon for the U20 as well :ph34r:

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Why would you say the U20 is a better boat for the J70 for the average trailer sailor? Do you mean average by skill?

 

"it planes easily" - sounds like the J70 will too (and the J70 sounds like it's even quicker around the course)

"has a generous cabin down below" - J70 does too

"superbly built" - i doubt that it has any better construction than the 70 and in fact would put that in the 70's corner.

 

Big difference seems to be price, which would favor the U20. But dealer and factory support, J70 hands down. There will probably be more J70's on the water by the end of this year than there will ever be U20's so assuming the average trailer is interested in OD racing - more options nationally for the J70. I'd also suspect the J70 is a lot more forgiving to sail.

 

I've not sailed either boat - from your statement you've obviously spent time on both boats to be able to make such a definitive comparison. Interested in your experience sailing the 70.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Junta,

 

Is the U20 drier than a V640 or Vx ? What about turtling ?

 

 

6924, I can answer that one. Yes, the U20 is much drier than both. Higher freeboard and the 'U' hull/deck joint sheds most of the water.

 

I used to own a U20 and sailed it extensively on SF Bay. Great heavy air boat, though the tin rig is a bit tweaky and needs a diligent eye on tuning to keep it in column (there is a new carbon option).

 

I hammered the crap out of my U20 and never even got close to turtling. Did many spreader washes and cleaned off a few windexes from the masthead. It has a 400lb keel, big butt and huge rudder. All keep it upright.

 

Frankly, the U20 is a much better boat for the average trailer sailor than the J70. It planes easy, has a generous cabin down below (for a 20 footer) and is superbly built. VERY much a small keelboat though. That's part of the beauty of it!

 

There's some VERY good news on the horizon for the U20 as well :ph34r:

 

My experience with Jboats is that build quality is better than other mass production shops but does not compete with the small specialty builders who have built the U20's some of which are the most respected custom boat builders in the US. So no J70 quality might be good but I highly doubt they can match the specialty builders who have and are building the U20.

 

I highly doubt Jboats can build over 200 J/70's in a year actually I'm not sure they would even want to build that many in a year given I highly doubt they can sell that many in a year.

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I admit, i've not looked the U20 over closely. I did spend some time with my head in a J70 and it looked pretty solid.

 

I guess it depends on the specialty builder. - but understand the guy who was building U20s' up in Canada was top notch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why would you say the U20 is a better boat for the J70 for the average trailer sailor? Do you mean average by skill?

 

"it planes easily" - sounds like the J70 will too (and the J70 sounds like it's even quicker around the course)

"has a generous cabin down below" - J70 does too

"superbly built" - i doubt that it has any better construction than the 70 and in fact would put that in the 70's corner.

 

Big difference seems to be price, which would favor the U20. But dealer and factory support, J70 hands down. There will probably be more J70's on the water by the end of this year than there will ever be U20's so assuming the average trailer is interested in OD racing - more options nationally for the J70. I'd also suspect the J70 is a lot more forgiving to sail.

 

I've not sailed either boat - from your statement you've obviously spent time on both boats to be able to make such a definitive comparison. Interested in your experience sailing the 70.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Junta,

 

Is the U20 drier than a V640 or Vx ? What about turtling ?

 

 

6924, I can answer that one. Yes, the U20 is much drier than both. Higher freeboard and the 'U' hull/deck joint sheds most of the water.

 

I used to own a U20 and sailed it extensively on SF Bay. Great heavy air boat, though the tin rig is a bit tweaky and needs a diligent eye on tuning to keep it in column (there is a new carbon option).

 

I hammered the crap out of my U20 and never even got close to turtling. Did many spreader washes and cleaned off a few windexes from the masthead. It has a 400lb keel, big butt and huge rudder. All keep it upright.

 

Frankly, the U20 is a much better boat for the average trailer sailor than the J70. It planes easy, has a generous cabin down below (for a 20 footer) and is superbly built. VERY much a small keelboat though. That's part of the beauty of it!

 

There's some VERY good news on the horizon for the U20 as well :ph34r:

 

My experience with Jboats is that build quality is better than other mass production shops but does not compete with the small specialty builders who have built the U20's some of which are the most respected custom boat builders in the US. So no J70 quality might be good but I highly doubt they can match the specialty builders who have and are building the U20.

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The shop that created the "Cook book" with Jim Antrim is Ron Moore as in the legendary Moore 24 and many other very highly respected boats. Since then they have been built by a small builder with close ties to Antrim Composites. If you think a mass production boat builder like Jboats is building nice boats - you need to take a look at some of the custom boats built by the smaller builders an afternoon spent with a small builder will have you looking at boats in a whole different way. Nothing wrong with mass produced boats besides its gets more people out on the water faster, but the quality of the work that goes into the boats is really not the same level found at the smaller builders and for good reason. The smaller builders stake their name and reputation on the boats they build. Jboats simply move to a new builder when things don't get built well.

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I highly doubt Jboats can build over 200 J/70's in a year actually I'm not sure they would even want to build that many in a year given I highly doubt they can sell that many in a year.

 

They've sold over 200 already, and may get them all out the door in the first year of production.

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IIRC Columbia was starting to build U20s a couple of years ago. Now, looking at the class website there does not appear to be any builders. Is anyone building U20s any more? No agenda here, I honestly don't know.

 

I like the U20 from what I've seen of them. The Vipers and VXs look fun, too but I want a boat I can sleep on from time to time. I camp-cruise an open boat now, so having real cabin would be quite a step up for me. When I'm in the market in a couple of years I hope they are being made somewhere.

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Yes U20's are being built - the only OD class sport boat I know of thats owned and controlled by the OD class its self.

Contact the class president for details.

 

As for over night or even cruising it has proven to work well for this even though its small.

A few years back one of our elder owners along with his wife spent two weeks cruising the San Juan Islands with his U20. After the trip he promptly sold his very nice 90's Pearson 35.

 

I spent a few nights aboard ours here and there over the years it works well as long as you keep in mind its only 20ft long and 1300lbs empty.

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Unfortunatly, that has NOT been my experiencen - although my recent dealings with Bennett and his local dealer has been a very positive one.

 

With Jboat's the local southwest dealer also does a very good job of making sure sailors are well cared for. And like i said, with the J70 - the product looks good...

 

 

 

 

The shop that created the "Cook book" with Jim Antrim is Ron Moore as in the legendary Moore 24 and many other very highly respected boats. Since then they have been built by a small builder with close ties to Antrim Composites. If you think a mass production boat builder like Jboats is building nice boats - you need to take a look at some of the custom boats built by the smaller builders an afternoon spent with a small builder will have you looking at boats in a whole different way. Nothing wrong with mass produced boats besides its gets more people out on the water faster, but the quality of the work that goes into the boats is really not the same level found at the smaller builders and for good reason. The smaller builders stake their name and reputation on the boats they build. Jboats simply move to a new builder when things don't get built well.

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A DEALER is not a builder. And a dealer who deals Jboats should by all means kiss your feet and do all things to make you happy given if they don't they will not remain a Jboat dealer for long and the money they make on the over priced bigger Jboats is more than enough to line their pockets and enable them to kiss baby's and rub J/70 potential buyers the right way. However from the industry side of things the small boats are usually viewed as a waste of time for the brokers who like selling the big boats for large paychecks.

 

The viper - U20 and the Open are all sold with much of the class and owners being the support group given dealers again make almost nothing selling these small boats. Just a basic fact of the boat business.

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Why would you say the U20 is a better boat for the J70 for the average trailer sailor? Do you mean average by skill?

 

"it planes easily" - sounds like the J70 will too (and the J70 sounds like it's even quicker around the course)

"has a generous cabin down below" - J70 does too

"superbly built" - i doubt that it has any better construction than the 70 and in fact would put that in the 70's corner.

 

Big difference seems to be price, which would favor the U20. But dealer and factory support, J70 hands down. There will probably be more J70's on the water by the end of this year than there will ever be U20's so assuming the average trailer is interested in OD racing - more options nationally for the J70. I'd also suspect the J70 is a lot more forgiving to sail.

 

I've not sailed either boat - from your statement you've obviously spent time on both boats to be able to make such a definitive comparison. Interested in your experience sailing the 70.

 

 

 

I have not sailed to J70 however I have been speaking to a U20 owner who keeps beating a J70 around the racecourse boat for boat so I am not so sure about "quicker"

 

I have not seen a U20 turtle. The best I have done is put the mast about a foot under water. Came back up once we got it sorted. I have seen them rammed into a dock, shoved under a dock dropped on a dock, keel dropped from full up position, Tboned. Very tough little boats with thorough layup schedule. Every single builder has won the NA's over the years so the integrity of the one design has been excellent.

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50 knot squall in 20 foot boat ? At night ?

 

Am I to understand from this account that U20 has positive floatation ?

Does J/70 have positive floatation ?

J/70 has flotation fore and aft according to RCR, see post #1 http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=131412

 

 

The white boat might have foatation but does it have P O S I T I V E floatation ?

 

Big difference

 

 

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50 knot squall in 20 foot boat ? At night ?

 

Am I to understand from this account that U20 has positive floatation ?

Does J/70 have positive floatation ?

J/70 has flotation fore and aft according to RCR, see post #1 http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=131412

 

 

The white boat might have foatation but does it have P O S I T I V E floatation ?

 

Big difference

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking at J70's for my sailing school. Huge cockpit, really easy to detune for SF Bay and not to ballistic in race mode for the Bays bigger breezes with neophytes aboard.

 

I'd glady use a U20 for this but the Cockpit is WAY small. The additional 2 feet of length and the dinky cabin make the 70 a real contender. The math in the teaching biz is you need 3-4 students per instructor. The J70 is a good design for this. Backstay keeps the rig more stable for those inevitable accidental jibes the students will toss at the boat too. Truth be told, I looked hard at even building a custom boat for sailing schools but the J70 ticks enough checkboxes to keenly look at. Only huge issue is price. VERY hard to pay the fully amortized cost of the boat and it's proper upkeep with what you can charge for sailing lessons.

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Schoonerman - Your opinion means alot on this board as repeatedly you are right.

 

Is it your opinion that the construction especially the hull (fully balsa sandwich) is up to handling San Francisco sailing school conditions. Repeated collisions, considerable use etc, etc ?? I know the J22 and J70 were used at various schools but this is the first that I have heard of a school interested in the J70.

 

If so that is the biggest vote of confidence that I have heard for the J70 so far.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking at J70's for my sailing school. Huge cockpit, really easy to detune for SF Bay and not to ballistic in race mode for the Bays bigger breezes with neophytes aboard.

 

I'd glady use a U20 for this but the Cockpit is WAY small. The additional 2 feet of length and the dinky cabin make the 70 a real contender. The math in the teaching biz is you need 3-4 students per instructor. The J70 is a good design for this. Backstay keeps the rig more stable for those inevitable accidental jibes the students will toss at the boat too. Truth be told, I looked hard at even building a custom boat for sailing schools but the J70 ticks enough checkboxes to keenly look at. Only huge issue is price. VERY hard to pay the fully amortized cost of the boat and it's proper upkeep with what you can charge for sailing lessons.

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I agree with Schoonerman, too, other than the fact that probably wouldn't use it as a "Learn to sail" boat just because errors on the water and use/abuse can be costly.

I have not sailed on the J/70 yet, but we did a demo day together in Houston. The boats is very well built and the cockpit is very generous, similar to a J/80's cockpit. Every time they went out they had about 5 people onboard and they did look comfortable, even in the super light breeze we were sailing on. Should say that they also kept moving nicely in the light stuff. The J/70 has a very large kite for the size of boat, yet easy to control.

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I agree with Schoonerman, too, other than the fact that probably wouldn't use it as a "Learn to sail" boat just because errors on the water and use/abuse can be costly.

I have not sailed on the J/70 yet, but we did a demo day together in Houston. The boats is very well built and the cockpit is very generous, similar to a J/80's cockpit. Every time they went out they had about 5 people onboard and they did look comfortable, even in the super light breeze we were sailing on. Should say that they also kept moving nicely in the light stuff. The J/70 has a very large kite for the size of boat, yet easy to control.

 

How did y'all do compared to them? Although I didn't get a chance to sail the 70 I did like the feel of the VX a lot.

 

 

Robby

 

P.S. thanks for returning everything for us, everything was good to go that wednesday.

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50 knot squall in 20 foot boat ? At night ?

 

Am I to understand from this account that U20 has positive floatation ?

Does J/70 have positive floatation ?

J/70 has flotation fore and aft according to RCR, see post #1 http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=131412

 

 

The white boat might have foatation but does it have P O S I T I V E floatation ?

 

Big difference

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking at J70's for my sailing school. Huge cockpit, really easy to detune for SF Bay and not to ballistic in race mode for the Bays bigger breezes with neophytes aboard.

 

I'd glady use a U20 for this but the Cockpit is WAY small. The additional 2 feet of length and the dinky cabin make the 70 a real contender. The math in the teaching biz is you need 3-4 students per instructor. The J70 is a good design for this. Backstay keeps the rig more stable for those inevitable accidental jibes the students will toss at the boat too. Truth be told, I looked hard at even building a custom boat for sailing schools but the J70 ticks enough checkboxes to keenly look at. Only huge issue is price. VERY hard to pay the fully amortized cost of the boat and it's proper upkeep with what you can charge for sailing lessons.

 

There was One U20 specifically built with a 2ft longer cockpit ie reduced cabin to pitch to sailing schools and programs. However times were rough regarding money and most schools were not in a position to make a decision or order one. I recall that boat ended up north possibly Montana.

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I agree with Schoonerman, too, other than the fact that probably wouldn't use it as a "Learn to sail" boat just because errors on the water and use/abuse can be costly.

I have not sailed on the J/70 yet, but we did a demo day together in Houston. The boats is very well built and the cockpit is very generous, similar to a J/80's cockpit. Every time they went out they had about 5 people onboard and they did look comfortable, even in the super light breeze we were sailing on. Should say that they also kept moving nicely in the light stuff. The J/70 has a very large kite for the size of boat, yet easy to control.

 

How did y'all do compared to them? Although I didn't get a chance to sail the 70 I did like the feel of the VX a lot.

 

 

Robby

 

P.S. thanks for returning everything for us, everything was good to go that wednesday.

 

Robby, Thanks for all the help. You Da'man!

 

Well, the VX has the dinghy feeling and that includes taller "peaks" on the acceleration/deceleration in the light stuff when going upwind. Once we sailed with some pressure, both boats were pretty even. When the wind faded n there was some advantage to the J/70 as it kept going for longer thanks to momentum. Off the wind the VX was easier to keep moving, but again it was too light. The only lucky enough to hit 15 knots that day was you :lol:

 

The both J/70 and VX were really loaded with people so hard to tell. I guess some of the Northesat VX'ers can tell what's going on as some of them are sharing the course with the J/70 and Vipers.

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50 knot squall in 20 foot boat ? At night ?

 

Am I to understand from this account that U20 has positive floatation ?

Does J/70 have positive floatation ?

J/70 has flotation fore and aft according to RCR, see post #1 http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=131412

 

 

The white boat might have foatation but does it have P O S I T I V E floatation ?

 

Big difference

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking at J70's for my sailing school. Huge cockpit, really easy to detune for SF Bay and not to ballistic in race mode for the Bays bigger breezes with neophytes aboard.

 

I'd glady use a U20 for this but the Cockpit is WAY small. The additional 2 feet of length and the dinky cabin make the 70 a real contender. The math in the teaching biz is you need 3-4 students per instructor. The J70 is a good design for this. Backstay keeps the rig more stable for those inevitable accidental jibes the students will toss at the boat too. Truth be told, I looked hard at even building a custom boat for sailing schools but the J70 ticks enough checkboxes to keenly look at. Only huge issue is price. VERY hard to pay the fully amortized cost of the boat and it's proper upkeep with what you can charge for sailing lessons.

 

There was One U20 specifically built with a 2ft longer cockpit ie reduced cabin to pitch to sailing schools and programs. However times were rough regarding money and most schools were not in a position to make a decision or order one. I recall that boat ended up north possibly Montana.

The modified u20 resides in Sandpoint, Idaho. Standard U20 with 2' of cabin removed. I've sailed both and like the standard model better. Interior of the modified one is pretty useless and difficult to crawl into if you are 6'2". Picture hands and knees crawling into a cave. Took it to the double dammed this year, but motored the last 1/2 mile so dnf. Plan to do the NA in Santa Cruz if they will let us race the modified boat. Originally built as a prototype for Bayview Yacht Club near Detroit (at their request), but they stuck with the standard model instead.

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Schoonerman - Your opinion means alot on this board as repeatedly you are right.

 

Is it your opinion that the construction especially the hull (fully balsa sandwich) is up to handling San Francisco sailing school conditions. Repeated collisions, considerable use etc, etc ?? I know the J22 and J70 were used at various schools but this is the first that I have heard of a school interested in the J70.

 

If so that is the biggest vote of confidence that I have heard for the J70 so far.

 

 

Hi Kent

 

Balsa has MUCH better compression performance than foam. It's pricey and the damn stuff is nearly impossible to get in 3/8" as the wind turbine biz buys most of what Baltek has in stock (bird strikes kill foam blades). The U20 uses 3/8" balsa and the damn things are nearly indestructible. I do think that foam provides 'potentially' more uniform weights when used with the infusion process.

 

The J80 is a great boat but too big for most schools and the lack of the lifting keel along with the brick/tin rig makes it a difficult choice. If there were a ton of J70's that lowered the price on the used 80's, then it might be a different story. Many of the j80's I've seen have pretty funky gelcoat too. Most that I've seen all seem to have significant stress cracks all over them, particularly where the boat is loaded...chainplates, stanchion bases, corners.

 

J22 doesn't work for the same reason as the U20. Dinky cockpit. For teaching you need:

 

- Big Cockpit

- Strong Hull/Deck

- Easy Outboard Access

- Foolproof Rig

- Affordable Price

- Small interior to hold porta potty for schools that can't get back to dock in the middle of the day for bathroom breaks.

 

The J70 offers all this except the price. It does offer a few other things

 

- Contemporary Design. The boat is pertinent....it's under construction, available, growing and very well marketed

- Carbon Rig is easy. Backstay makes it more bulletproof

- Lifting Keel makes the boat easily servicable via boat ramp. Schools can dodge expensive boat yards and maintain their boats independantly.

- Lifting keel also opens up many temporary locations otherwise not available...ramp launching it is easy and tows behind a VW.

- Furler is easy

- You can beercan race it even with bottom paint on it and it'll be huge fun for students.

- It trains people how to sail sport/sprit boats. Certainly a good thing!

- Sails are cheap as they are small. Training sails can be bought for under $1200 offshore (inc Kite)

- Resale should be relatively good.

 

I inquired about the new Bavaria B-One. It's hull is chopstrand built on coremat....not a great combo for a school.

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The modified u20 resides in Sandpoint, Idaho. Standard U20 with 2' of cabin removed. I've sailed both and like the standard model better. Interior of the modified one is pretty useless and difficult to crawl into if you are 6'2". Picture hands and knees crawling into a cave. Took it to the double dammed this year, but motored the last 1/2 mile so dnf. Plan to do the NA in Santa Cruz if they will let us race the modified boat. Originally built as a prototype for Bayview Yacht Club near Detroit (at their request), but they stuck with the standard model instead.

 

 

Can you send me pics of this boat please. I'm quite interested. Do you feel you could get 4 students plus and instructor (generally standing in the companionway) on the boat?

 

TIA....

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The modified u20 resides in Sandpoint, Idaho. Standard U20 with 2' of cabin removed. I've sailed both and like the standard model better. Interior of the modified one is pretty useless and difficult to crawl into if you are 6'2". Picture hands and knees crawling into a cave. Took it to the double dammed this year, but motored the last 1/2 mile so dnf. Plan to do the NA in Santa Cruz if they will let us race the modified boat. Originally built as a prototype for Bayview Yacht Club near Detroit (at their request), but they stuck with the standard model instead.

 

 

Can you send me pics of this boat please. I'm quite interested. Do you feel you could get 4 students plus and instructor (generally standing in the companionway) on the boat?

 

TIA....

No companionway, sorry. We "race" tomorrow evening and I'll try to take some photos for you.

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I agree with Schoonerman, too, other than the fact that probably wouldn't use it as a "Learn to sail" boat just because errors on the water and use/abuse can be costly.

I have not sailed on the J/70 yet, but we did a demo day together in Houston. The boats is very well built and the cockpit is very generous, similar to a J/80's cockpit. Every time they went out they had about 5 people onboard and they did look comfortable, even in the super light breeze we were sailing on. Should say that they also kept moving nicely in the light stuff. The J/70 has a very large kite for the size of boat, yet easy to control.

 

How did y'all do compared to them? Although I didn't get a chance to sail the 70 I did like the feel of the VX a lot.

 

 

Robby

 

P.S. thanks for returning everything for us, everything was good to go that wednesday.

 

Robby, Thanks for all the help. You Da'man!

 

Well, the VX has the dinghy feeling and that includes taller "peaks" on the acceleration/deceleration in the light stuff when going upwind. Once we sailed with some pressure, both boats were pretty even. When the wind faded n there was some advantage to the J/70 as it kept going for longer thanks to momentum. Off the wind the VX was easier to keep moving, but again it was too light. The only lucky enough to hit 15 knots that day was you :lol:

 

The both J/70 and VX were really loaded with people so hard to tell. I guess some of the Northesat VX'ers can tell what's going on as some of them are sharing the course with the J/70 and Vipers.

 

That's kinda what I figured. We have the same problem on the 1d versus the heavier boats. Like you said it's thought to compare when you have too many crew who haven't sailed the boat much.

 

I think we got more than 15 out of it for a second or two there haha.

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Can you send me pics of this boat please. I'm quite interested. Do you feel you could get 4 students plus and instructor (generally standing in the companionway) on the boat?

 

TIA....

+1

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Schoonerman - Your opinion means alot on this board as repeatedly you are right.

 

Is it your opinion that the construction especially the hull (fully balsa sandwich) is up to handling San Francisco sailing school conditions. Repeated collisions, considerable use etc, etc ?? I know the J22 and J70 were used at various schools but this is the first that I have heard of a school interested in the J70.

 

If so that is the biggest vote of confidence that I have heard for the J70 so far.

 

 

Hi Kent

 

Balsa has MUCH better compression performance than foam. It's pricey and the damn stuff is nearly impossible to get in 3/8" as the wind turbine biz buys most of what Baltek has in stock (bird strikes kill foam blades). The U20 uses 3/8" balsa and the damn things are nearly indestructible. I do think that foam provides 'potentially' more uniform weights when used with the infusion process.

 

The J80 is a great boat but too big for most schools and the lack of the lifting keel along with the brick/tin rig makes it a difficult choice. If there were a ton of J70's that lowered the price on the used 80's, then it might be a different story. Many of the j80's I've seen have pretty funky gelcoat too. Most that I've seen all seem to have significant stress cracks all over them, particularly where the boat is loaded...chainplates, stanchion bases, corners.

 

J22 doesn't work for the same reason as the U20. Dinky cockpit. For teaching you need:

 

- Big Cockpit

- Strong Hull/Deck

- Easy Outboard Access

- Foolproof Rig

- Affordable Price

- Small interior to hold porta potty for schools that can't get back to dock in the middle of the day for bathroom breaks.

 

The J70 offers all this except the price. It does offer a few other things

 

- Contemporary Design. The boat is pertinent....it's under construction, available, growing and very well marketed

- Carbon Rig is easy. Backstay makes it more bulletproof

- Lifting Keel makes the boat easily servicable via boat ramp. Schools can dodge expensive boat yards and maintain their boats independantly.

- Lifting keel also opens up many temporary locations otherwise not available...ramp launching it is easy and tows behind a VW.

- Furler is easy

- You can beercan race it even with bottom paint on it and it'll be huge fun for students.

- It trains people how to sail sport/sprit boats. Certainly a good thing!

- Sails are cheap as they are small. Training sails can be bought for under $1200 offshore (inc Kite)

- Resale should be relatively good.

 

I inquired about the new Bavaria B-One. It's hull is chopstrand built on coremat....not a great combo for a school.

 

Wow, first I have ever heard of the U20 cockpit referred to as small. Sounds like you are looking for a Colgate 26. A sportboat may not be the best learning platform for what you are looking for.

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Schoonerman - Your opinion means alot on this board as repeatedly you are right.

 

Is it your opinion that the construction especially the hull (fully balsa sandwich) is up to handling San Francisco sailing school conditions. Repeated collisions, considerable use etc, etc ?? I know the J22 and J70 were used at various schools but this is the first that I have heard of a school interested in the J70.

 

If so that is the biggest vote of confidence that I have heard for the J70 so far.

 

 

Hi Kent

 

Balsa has MUCH better compression performance than foam. It's pricey and the damn stuff is nearly impossible to get in 3/8" as the wind turbine biz buys most of what Baltek has in stock (bird strikes kill foam blades). The U20 uses 3/8" balsa and the damn things are nearly indestructible. I do think that foam provides 'potentially' more uniform weights when used with the infusion process.

 

The J80 is a great boat but too big for most schools and the lack of the lifting keel along with the brick/tin rig makes it a difficult choice. If there were a ton of J70's that lowered the price on the used 80's, then it might be a different story. Many of the j80's I've seen have pretty funky gelcoat too. Most that I've seen all seem to have significant stress cracks all over them, particularly where the boat is loaded...chainplates, stanchion bases, corners.

 

J22 doesn't work for the same reason as the U20. Dinky cockpit. For teaching you need:

 

- Big Cockpit

- Strong Hull/Deck

- Easy Outboard Access

- Foolproof Rig

- Affordable Price

- Small interior to hold porta potty for schools that can't get back to dock in the middle of the day for bathroom breaks.

 

The J70 offers all this except the price. It does offer a few other things

 

- Contemporary Design. The boat is pertinent....it's under construction, available, growing and very well marketed

- Carbon Rig is easy. Backstay makes it more bulletproof

- Lifting Keel makes the boat easily servicable via boat ramp. Schools can dodge expensive boat yards and maintain their boats independantly.

- Lifting keel also opens up many temporary locations otherwise not available...ramp launching it is easy and tows behind a VW.

- Furler is easy

- You can beercan race it even with bottom paint on it and it'll be huge fun for students.

- It trains people how to sail sport/sprit boats. Certainly a good thing!

- Sails are cheap as they are small. Training sails can be bought for under $1200 offshore (inc Kite)

- Resale should be relatively good.

 

I inquired about the new Bavaria B-One. It's hull is chopstrand built on coremat....not a great combo for a school.

 

Wow, first I have ever heard of the U20 cockpit referred to as small. Sounds like you are looking for a Colgate 26. A sportboat may not be the best learning platform for what you are looking for.

 

I've sailed the Toothpaste 26...no thanks.

 

I'd rather keep my Santa Cruz 27's, small cockpit and all. Much better build and they sail infinitely better.

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[quote

 

I've sailed the Toothpaste 26...no thanks.

 

I'd rather keep my Santa Cruz 27's, small cockpit and all. Much better build and they sail infinitely better.

 

Schoonerman, I'm curious why you feel that way about the Colgate? Its certainly not a sportboat, but has been proven to be a good school boat and used in match racing many times. Strongly built with an offshore rating, huge cockpit with dual mainsheet control for the instructor, good performance with a 155, roller furling for the beginners, etc. I race against one here in the club, and have crewed once for the owner. Again not the latest and greatest compared to a modern sportboat, but if were talking about a school boat, I don't see any drawbacks.

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Isn't the Colgate 26 notoriously tender ?

 

From my experience they do tend to be a bit tender, but that was generally two up (and fairly skinny two at that). It's been years since I was last on one, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be on their ear most of the time in SF. They were _very_ easy to get surfing, however, and plenty large enough to be good instructional boats in light-wind venues.

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Isn't the Colgate 26 notoriously tender ?

 

From my experience they do tend to be a bit tender, but that was generally two up (and fairly skinny two at that). It's been years since I was last on one, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be on their ear most of the time in SF. They were _very_ easy to get surfing, however, and plenty large enough to be good instructional boats in light-wind venues.

The Colgate I race against here is far from tender under 20. They often race with their 155. If its upwards of 20, they put a reef in the main, and have no issues. I would think that using only the stock jib in most wind conditions would be suitable for teaching purposes.

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The modified u20 resides in Sandpoint, Idaho. Standard U20 with 2' of cabin removed. I've sailed both and like the standard model better. Interior of the modified one is pretty useless and difficult to crawl into if you are 6'2". Picture hands and knees crawling into a cave. Took it to the double dammed this year, but motored the last 1/2 mile so dnf. Plan to do the NA in Santa Cruz if they will let us race the modified boat. Originally built as a prototype for Bayview Yacht Club near Detroit (at their request), but they stuck with the standard model instead.

 

 

Can you send me pics of this boat please. I'm quite interested. Do you feel you could get 4 students plus and instructor (generally standing in the companionway) on the boat?

 

TIA....

post-14713-069149700 1345206876_thumb.jpg

 

post-14713-066729600 1345206926_thumb.jpg

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Isn't the Colgate 26 notoriously tender ?

.... however, and plenty large enough to be good instructional boats in light-wind venues.

and therein lies the crux of the matter

 

in Schoonermans San Francisco no tender sportsboat is gonna cut it as a trainer, and that includes the ones he's mentioning

 

should look at a fleet deal on the stiffer ones, FT7.5 - LC Dart, Longzte premier

 

 

 

 

 

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Isn't the Colgate 26 notoriously tender ?

 

From my experience they do tend to be a bit tender, but that was generally two up (and fairly skinny two at that). It's been years since I was last on one, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be on their ear most of the time in SF. They were _very_ easy to get surfing, however, and plenty large enough to be good instructional boats in light-wind venues.

The Colgate I race against here is far from tender under 20. They often race with their 155. If its upwards of 20, they put a reef in the main, and have no issues. I would think that using only the stock jib in most wind conditions would be suitable for teaching purposes.

The stock Colgate is tender as hell, with only 4 and a half feet of draft, and a ballast ratio of 40%, which totally discounts that the ballast is in a low aspect fin and not concentrated in a bulb. Also a tiny kite, which is great for shorthanding in 20 knots because you can get it down in three pulls. I taught sailing in Charleston and raced every week there a C26 for most of a year, nothing wrong with the boat but just not a racing design. I constantly lobbied for something faster, because the Colgate does nothing to dispel newbies of the notion that sailboats are slow and impractical. Has plenty of positives, especially for people who have a dream to go cruising...because it has similar performance characteristics to a fat cruising boat. I think we rated slower than a J/24.

 

u20_1.jpg

 

u20_2.jpg

My new favorite U-20!

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What did the class think about the Ultimate 20 with the longer cockpit ?

 

Was it considered OD ?

 

Does it have a name ?

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What did the class think about the Ultimate 20 with the longer cockpit ?

 

Was it considered OD ?

 

Does it have a name ?

"Black Sheep" hopes to do the 2013 NAs if the class will let her, so we will find out what the class thinks.

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The modified u20 resides in Sandpoint, Idaho. Standard U20 with 2' of cabin removed. I've sailed both and like the standard model better. Interior of the modified one is pretty useless and difficult to crawl into if you are 6'2". Picture hands and knees crawling into a cave. Took it to the double dammed this year, but motored the last 1/2 mile so dnf. Plan to do the NA in Santa Cruz if they will let us race the modified boat. Originally built as a prototype for Bayview Yacht Club near Detroit (at their request), but they stuck with the standard model instead.

 

 

Can you send me pics of this boat please. I'm quite interested. Do you feel you could get 4 students plus and instructor (generally standing in the companionway) on the boat?

 

TIA....

post-14713-069149700 1345206876_thumb.jpg

 

post-14713-066729600 1345206926_thumb.jpg

 

This looks great and overcomes my only concern with the U20. Not because I teach, but a large selling point with the wife is the ability to take people out on Sundays. Very hard to achieve in a boat with sails and loads she can handle that isn't a floating pig.

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The stock Colgate is tender as hell, with only 4 and a half feet of draft, and a ballast ratio of 40%, which totally discounts that the ballast is in a low aspect fin and not concentrated in a bulb. Also a tiny kite, which is great for shorthanding in 20 knots because you can get it down in three pulls. I taught sailing in Charleston and raced every week there a C26 for most of a year, nothing wrong with the boat but just not a racing design. I constantly lobbied for something faster, because the Colgate does nothing to dispel newbies of the notion that sailboats are slow and impractical. Has plenty of positives, especially for people who have a dream to go cruising...because it has similar performance characteristics to a fat cruising boat. I think we rated slower than a J/24.

 

 

You must have been on a different boat? I've raced against it and seen it in strong winds to see that's not the case. Upwind its just as fast as anything else in its size range. J/24 rates in the 160's versus the Colgate in the 150's. I can't imagine that a sailing schoool catering to new sailors would need more? Of course unless you're teaching experienced sailors racing.

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You must have been on a different boat? I've raced against it and seen it in strong winds to see that's not the case. Upwind its just as fast as anything else in its size range. J/24 rates in the 160's versus the Colgate in the 150's. I can't imagine that a sailing schoool catering to new sailors would need more? Of course unless you're teaching experienced sailors racing.

 

Nope. Stock Colgate 26, we had two of them. Can't argue with the numbers; shallow keel, not much righting moment from crew, boat goes sideways more than upwind, tiny kite.

 

There was one from Annapolis that had lifelines instead of the granny bars, bigger kites, and a few other mods that helped it go OK and win quite a bit (they used to do KW IIRC) but the boat in stock sailing school trim is a dog right out of the box.

 

Definitely not 'as fast as anything else in its size range' unless you are talking learn-to-sail boats and not more racy things from the same era. For instance the Tripp 26, Soverel 26, Melges 24, Ultimate 24, all were designed around the same time (early to mid 90s) and all will crush a Colgate in any condition, upwind and down.

 

One clarification: The OD boat has a tiny jib, impossible to make it go anywhere in <10 knots.

 

Correction: You are right, in most places an unmodified C26 rates slightly faster than a J/24. But it is rarely in the 150s.

Screen Shot 2012-08-17 at 10.52.19 AM.png

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On the one hand, if focus is one area, say modern sport boats, then comparison to that area makes total sense, but on the other hand, the Colgate just isn't a good fit with the Melges or Ultimate 24. Relative to them for speed, what a dog. It's more of a day cruiser.

 

While using the word the way I personally do I wouldn't call it tender - from limited experience on a friend's Colgate - but from the perspective of a racing-oriented boat then for its very substantial weight and modest sail area I guess indeed it is tender as hell.

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Agree, good looking boat. If the production u20's looked like that it would have been on my short list when I was shopping.

 

Who really uses the cabin for anything other than storage and an occasional squat anyway?

 

The modified u20 resides in Sandpoint, Idaho. Standard U20 with 2' of cabin removed. I've sailed both and like the standard model better. Interior of the modified one is pretty useless and difficult to crawl into if you are 6'2". Picture hands and knees crawling into a cave. Took it to the double dammed this year, but motored the last 1/2 mile so dnf. Plan to do the NA in Santa Cruz if they will let us race the modified boat. Originally built as a prototype for Bayview Yacht Club near Detroit (at their request), but they stuck with the standard model instead.

 

 

Can you send me pics of this boat please. I'm quite interested. Do you feel you could get 4 students plus and instructor (generally standing in the companionway) on the boat?

 

TIA....

post-14713-069149700 1345206876_thumb.jpg

 

post-14713-066729600 1345206926_thumb.jpg

 

This looks great and overcomes my only concern with the U20. Not because I teach, but a large selling point with the wife is the ability to take people out on Sundays. Very hard to achieve in a boat with sails and loads she can handle that isn't a floating pig.

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Agree, good looking boat. If the production u20's looked like that it would have been on my short list when I was shopping.

 

Who really uses the cabin for anything other than storage and an occasional squat anyway?

 

 

 

Oh, I don't know, kinda nice for those to get out of the cold and rain sometimes.

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Agree, good looking boat. If the production u20's looked like that it would have been on my short list when I was shopping.

 

Who really uses the cabin for anything other than storage and an occasional squat anyway?

 

 

 

 

When did you ever bother with a cabin for a squat?

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[quote

 

I've sailed the Toothpaste 26...no thanks.

 

I'd rather keep my Santa Cruz 27's, small cockpit and all. Much better build and they sail infinitely better.

 

Schoonerman, I'm curious why you feel that way about the Colgate? Its certainly not a sportboat, but has been proven to be a good school boat and used in match racing many times. Strongly built with an offshore rating, huge cockpit with dual mainsheet control for the instructor, good performance with a 155, roller furling for the beginners, etc. I race against one here in the club, and have crewed once for the owner. Again not the latest and greatest compared to a modern sportboat, but if were talking about a school boat, I don't see any drawbacks.

 

 

Hi Jerry,

 

Colgate 26 is VERY tippy in the Bay, doesn't handle the chop well and the build is particularly suspect in my mind. Mind you, I'm comparing it against Santa Cruz 27's (we own 4 of those, owned 6 at one time). These were built locally and are particularly robust, especially for pretty old technology at play. The Toothpaste 26 is a freakin 'barge' in the Bay. Add to that, while I like Steve, Doris and her in-your-face-constantly politics drive me fucking insane.

 

I sailed a Colgate 26 extensively in the Caribe for 3 days and quite a few issues on the boat in 18 knots TWS. It fell apart for no reason other than build/quality issues.

 

Part of our concept for the new school boat is to teach on boats that are pertinent, functional (big cockpit) and marketable. We'd like to teach on a boat that is easily detuned but as just as easily brought up to speed. We will HAVE to bottom paint them which kills them in OD racing but they'll be fine for beercans. It'd be nice to have a boat that we can set the asym on in the winter when the winds are light. We generally wont' set the kites in the summer unless it's a purely performance class.

 

I REALLY like the look of the LC U20. Bayview decided the normal sized cockpit U20 was their best choice as the resale would be much higher. That's not such an issue with us. We'll keep the boats 10+ years. As it turns out, I think so will Bayview.

 

I agree with Ultra (shit, did I say that outloud :lol: ) this layout is pretty damn appealing. I'm gonna do some more research on this and report back to ya'll.

 

No matter what, we'd have to add a backstay to the U20 just so I wouldn't worry about the rig constantly.

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Agree, good looking boat. If the production u20's looked like that it would have been on my short list when I was shopping.

 

Who really uses the cabin for anything other than storage and an occasional squat anyway?

 

The modified u20 resides in Sandpoint, Idaho. Standard U20 with 2' of cabin removed. I've sailed both and like the standard model better. Interior of the modified one is pretty useless and difficult to crawl into if you are 6'2". Picture hands and knees crawling into a cave. Took it to the double dammed this year, but motored the last 1/2 mile so dnf. Plan to do the NA in Santa Cruz if they will let us race the modified boat. Originally built as a prototype for Bayview Yacht Club near Detroit (at their request), but they stuck with the standard model instead.

 

 

Can you send me pics of this boat please. I'm quite interested. Do you feel you could get 4 students plus and instructor (generally standing in the companionway) on the boat?

 

TIA....

post-14713-069149700 1345206876_thumb.jpg

 

post-14713-066729600 1345206926_thumb.jpg

 

This looks great and overcomes my only concern with the U20. Not because I teach, but a large selling point with the wife is the ability to take people out on Sundays. Very hard to achieve in a boat with sails and loads she can handle that isn't a floating pig.

 

couple of things the long cockpit school U20 was called black sheep because weight forward makes a dramatic difference in upwind speed and performance on the U20. Also every family owned U20 uses the cabin on the U20 and they use it a bunch. I know of one particular very well known and respected racing family who practically raised their two girls in the Vberth learning to put their dolls on the high side while playing and rolling around on the v berth pads while mom and dad raced the boat. Many of the owners have also done races where you have an overnight then race back the next day and the U20 cabin is ideal for one or two crew to crash out not to mention it makes the M24 look like a torture device. And yes several of the U20 owners have done fairly decent cruises on their U20's.

 

The U20 was the first sprit sport boat to go full production and the big appeal to it was having a functional cabin for multiple types of use - ie racing - gear storage- cruising etc. Given the target crew was 3 people the extended cockpit length made no sense beyond the teaching platform needs of a sailing school.

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Also the U20's were developed in Santa Cruz the early boats were often tossed in the water at Santa Cruz and raced down the coast by the original guys who talked Jim into the idea. They were all long time old school Hobie guys looking for a fast - dry - comfortable boat they could relive their Hobie racing days with. The U20 was built and designed for places like SF bay and is far from tender compared to the current crop of Sport boats not counting the chop strand boat that came out a few years ago and never seemed to make it in the US.

 

Also as Jim Antrim has mentioned to a few of us there is only so much you can do with 20ft of water line the speed differences between the U20 and some what similar weight newer designs is not going to be dramatic though each design might have a range of conditions its excels at over the other etc.

 

Some of the best U20 racing results in mixed company has been light air however the U20 in heavy air has proven over and over again to be a stable and predictable boat regardless of how bad you mess up.

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Another interesting U20 factoid. Ron Moore worked with Jim Antrim to develop a layup that was lighter than anything done on a boat like the U20 - ie light weight very strong and stiff. Ron is a really amazing guy who ooozes build process history and design efforts spending a couple of hours BS'ing with him or one of the guys who worked in Ron's shop will really make you view boats in a different way.

 

The way the U20's were built was new never really done with a boat like the U20 regarding its size etc.

What I think is cool is that the U20 even today is 100% in the game and it has taken nearly 20yrs for the rest of the industry to catch up.

 

By the way the original vipers hit the water nearly the same time as the U20. They were viewed as very odd and given their super light set up and high powered rig the keel boat types who bought them sailed them as if they were a keel boat which usually ended up with a turtled boat. As a result the viper was a bit extreme and way too different for people to accept back in the mid 90's.

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Another interesting U20 factoid. Ron Moore worked with Jim Antrim to develop a layup that was lighter than anything done on a boat like the U20 - ie light weight very strong and stiff. Ron is a really amazing guy who ooozes build process history and design efforts spending a couple of hours BS'ing with him or one of the guys who worked in Ron's shop will really make you view boats in a different way.

 

The way the U20's were built was new never really done with a boat like the U20 regarding its size etc.

What I think is cool is that the U20 even today is 100% in the game and it has taken nearly 20yrs for the rest of the industry to catch up.

 

By the way the original vipers hit the water nearly the same time as the U20. They were viewed as very odd and given their super light set up and high powered rig the keel boat types who bought them sailed them as if they were a keel boat which usually ended up with a turtled boat. As a result the viper was a bit extreme and way too different for people to accept back in the mid 90's.

 

Something's changed? :)

 

1938-cw.jpg

 

 

Note the Moore 24 trucking to weather...

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My Bad...Garett does look pretty sporty up on the keel though :P I just can't remember where the hell M was in that shot?

 

Hell, I flipped a J24 too...not that hard actually.

 

Moores are awesome boats...so are SC 27's, O30's and oh yeah...SC 50's :lol:

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My Bad...Garett does look pretty sporty up on the keel though :P I just can't remember where the hell M was in that shot?

 

Hell, I flipped a J24 too...not that hard actually.

 

Moores are awesome boats...so are SC 27's, O30's and oh yeah...SC 50's :lol:

 

I think she was doing the reverse swim back to the Rock ;-) She seemed very interested in racing on the U20 after that little adventure ha ha. The current was ripping that day no doubt played a big role.

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By the way the original vipers hit the water nearly the same time as the U20. They were viewed as very odd and given their super light set up and high powered rig the keel boat types who bought them sailed them as if they were a keel boat which usually ended up with a turtled boat. As a result the viper was a bit extreme and way too different for people to accept back in the mid 90's.

 

Yeah, JB and Curtis had no idea what to do with the boat. Couple of hacks.

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By the way the original vipers hit the water nearly the same time as the U20. They were viewed as very odd and given their super light set up and high powered rig the keel boat types who bought them sailed them as if they were a keel boat which usually ended up with a turtled boat. As a result the viper was a bit extreme and way too different for people to accept back in the mid 90's.

 

Yeah, JB and Curtis had no idea what to do with the boat. Couple of hacks.

 

Hermit OK to call you that?

 

I was speaking about the general boat buying public who were buying these boats in the early/ mid 90's. The cost of these boats and them being so small made them mainly an interest to older sailors who had money and in many cases had already done the big boat thing and wanted something sporty and fun. The first Viper I shared a race course with was on Whiskey Town Lake in northern CA - generally a lake where you find tired well loved older boats on fairly small budget sailing programs. And lots of retired SF sailors enjoying the warm water quiet lake life. The lake is also known for having very very light air during the summer months. The owner was an older gent trying to sort out this new Asymmetric kite thing as was everyone else at the time - go look at the Asymmetric kites the top sail makers were making you would laugh at them compared to what the very same boats are using today. That boat even in light air was dunked and turtled more than once just during that one event. The owner eventually sold it great guy really tried hard to make it work but he told me that going swimming when you make a mistake was not his old body's idea of fun. That was very much the story of the viper early on given the young guns like my self had no money to drop $18,500 on the viper or $20,000 on the U20. That was perhaps the largest issue that the Viper and the U20 faced for many years the boats were simply too different for the older money spending heavy keelboat sailors. Several of the younger owners who had money and got the U20's early on ended up in the Melges 24 fleet - moved to the J-105's and very possible some may have actually gone full circle now and might actually be in Vipers now. But those are the guys who were trying to race the early M24's in 30knot SF winds and dropping rigs like they were a dime a dozen back in the day.

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What did the class think about the Ultimate 20 with the longer cockpit ?

 

Was it considered OD ?

 

Does it have a name ?

"Black Sheep" hopes to do the 2013 NAs if the class will let her, so we will find out what the class thinks.

 

 

The Class didn't have an issue with Black Sheep doing OD in the Seattle NOODs 2-3 years back. I doubt they say no about Black Sheep at NAs. At most, if there is a hull weight differential, then corrector weights might be in order.

 

Looking at past results Black Sheep is well a sailed boat, so getting good competition on the water is better than exclusion.

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Noods are not the NA's and probably not the right place to be discussing its legality. Take it up with the class if they approve then no big deal. If there are enough people that feel that its not equal footing and do not approve then get over it and move on. Has nothing to do with who is sailing the boat - has everything to do with OD boat design and performance. As for good competition vs exclusion that is up to the class members to decide exclusion has nothing to do with competition hence why a boat might be excluded.

 

By the way the crew and the owner are not excluded they can charter a U20 and go race like any other U20 owner and if its not the big of a deal to the owner and he wants to race but the boat gets "excluded" then charter a rig and go race. No big deal

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Noods are not the NA's and probably not the right place to be discussing its legality. Take it up with the class if they approve then no big deal. If there are enough people that feel that its not equal footing and do not approve then get over it and move on. Has nothing to do with who is sailing the boat - has everything to do with OD boat design and performance. As for good competition vs exclusion that is up to the class members to decide exclusion has nothing to do with competition hence why a boat might be excluded.

 

By the way the crew and the owner are not excluded they can charter a U20 and go race like any other U20 owner and if its not the big of a deal to the owner and he wants to race but the boat gets "excluded" then charter a rig and go race. No big deal

That's the plan.

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One thing is for sure I'm Glad Jboats finally decided a low profit margin small boat for the not so wealthy sailors was worth designing and building +1!!! They could have given it a try about 15yrs ago though. LOL

 

Anyone new to the small sport boat idea will find that each class has its own flavor when it comes to how much they travel - how competitive they are - how social they are etc etc etc. Thats the great thing about having more than one or two or three of these boats to choose from. You can pick the boat and the class that best matches your level of interest regarding competition - travel etc.

 

I don't see the J/70 sailors traveling like the viper guys Obvious reasons the 70 still isn't as small and light as the Viper which gets hauled long distances with some pretty good road warrior cars that fit every day life and return good mileage. I also don't see the J/70 having all kinds of top level talent in the OD events either given there is a much hotter faster more challenging boat out there for those folks to race ie the Viper.

 

I put the J/70 class dynamic more along the lines of the U20 class lots of families, lots of retired guys who are quite skilled racers but have no interest in going balls to the wall because they have other interests besides sailing they enjoy spending time doing etc.

 

The Open 5.70 the largest group down in Socal for the most part is a group of people learning what sailing sport boats is all about having fun - racing when they can - doing a little local event travel but seems like most of those folks have plenty of other things they spend time on besides every weekend being on the boat.

 

As I said each class and boat is going to have a flavor and the more boats in this category the more potential sailors we have on US waters learning how to sail - sailing hard and fast- or becoming the next best US sailors. So its all good!

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What's the issue with forward weight on the U20sport VS the U20wagon? Crew not allowed to get out of the cockpit and move forward?

 

Schock came out with a revamped (moderized) wavelength 24 about ten years ago. Cut a bunch of the cabin off and made the cockpit bigger. Raced OD all over the place - it was a huge improvement over the small cockpit design (for those that dont use is as an RV of course)

 

 

 

Noods are not the NA's and probably not the right place to be discussing its legality. Take it up with the class if they approve then no big deal. If there are enough people that feel that its not equal footing and do not approve then get over it and move on. Has nothing to do with who is sailing the boat - has everything to do with OD boat design and performance. As for good competition vs exclusion that is up to the class members to decide exclusion has nothing to do with competition hence why a boat might be excluded.

 

By the way the crew and the owner are not excluded they can charter a U20 and go race like any other U20 owner and if its not the big of a deal to the owner and he wants to race but the boat gets "excluded" then charter a rig and go race. No big deal

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What's the issue with forward weight on the U20sport VS the U20wagon? Crew not allowed to get out of the cockpit and move forward?

 

Schock came out with a revamped (moderized) wavelength 24 about ten years ago. Cut a bunch of the cabin off and made the cockpit bigger. Raced OD all over the place - it was a huge improvement over the small cockpit design (for those that dont use is as an RV of course)

 

 

 

Noods are not the NA's and probably not the right place to be discussing its legality. Take it up with the class if they approve then no big deal. If there are enough people that feel that its not equal footing and do not approve then get over it and move on. Has nothing to do with who is sailing the boat - has everything to do with OD boat design and performance. As for good competition vs exclusion that is up to the class members to decide exclusion has nothing to do with competition hence why a boat might be excluded.

 

By the way the crew and the owner are not excluded they can charter a U20 and go race like any other U20 owner and if its not the big of a deal to the owner and he wants to race but the boat gets "excluded" then charter a rig and go race. No big deal

 

No issue, Crew can go forward. Best to do it in light air to get the stern out of the water and reduce wetted surface. You can sit on the bow the whole race if you wanted to but I hear that's not fast.

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We're here, any doubts you have about the boat or what it offers?.. Spent all day giving demo's @ ABYC, probably took 20+ folks out. At one time we had 3 adult males and 4 juniors aboard. Everybody had a blast and the kids loved the boat, jumping off and coming in the back, just dragging feet. The overiding comments were ease, comfort and speed.

 

Sold one today and possibly two more.. the one brings the So Cal fleet numbers to 15, and 31 on the West Coast. Next year @ LBRW we expect to over 25 boats.

 

I leave in two weeks towing a 3 boat trailer to Marblehead for a 50 boat North Americans. There are other options for your money out there, but this one is right in so many ways.

 

 

 

http://viper640.org/

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Great to see Schoon. That makes Viper, VX, Melges 20, J/70, and U-20 (i think) all made in USA now or shortly. What else?

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Great to see Schoon. That makes Viper, VX, Melges 20, J/70, and U-20 (i think) all made in USA now or shortly. What else?

Open 5.70, Left Coast Dart, Rocket 22 (Canada).

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Great to see Schoon. That makes Viper, VX, Melges 20, J/70, and U-20 (i think) all made in USA now or shortly. What else?

 

We're also currently building our line of collegiate boats in Peabody including Collegiate 420, Firefly and yes, even the Tech Dinghy (in carbon). Once we land the K1 on the shores of the US market, we'll consider that one, depending on volumes. When we get the K6 sales at the pace we are looking for, we may well bring that production from the UK to Peabody too.

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Great to see Schoon. That makes Viper, VX, Melges 20, J/70, and U-20 (i think) all made in USA now or shortly. What else?

Open 5.70, Left Coast Dart, Rocket 22 (Canada).

 

Canada doesn't count and as i understand it there hasn't been a new R22 in ages, Dart is not really in production, but Open is a good addition to my list. All good action!

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I have tried or owned many sportboats from 20 ft to 25 ft - Melges 24, Magic 25, Open 5.70, Viper and now the Elite (an excellent, but heavier and more mini metre boat design). I have ended up having a Viper for fun sailing in Switzerland and an Elite for the quality of the one design racing in the UK.

 

The Viper is by far the best of the sportsboats I have sailed. Very responsive and easy to sail. Miles faster than the Open 5,70 and often up with the Melges 24's we have here. There was one in Cowes Week this year which was always a long way in front in the sportsboat class in which I thought I saw a J70 competing. I often sail the boat alone (not racing) in up to force 3/4 for fun which is only possible with the spi chute and using a (non-class) trapeze. Also very easy to launch/recover. Effectively a bigger, safer dinghy giving the thrill of skiff sailing.

 

Hope this is helpful

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I have tried or owned many sportboats from 20 ft to 25 ft - Melges 24, Magic 25, Open 5.70, Viper and now the Elite (an excellent, but heavier and more mini metre boat design). I have ended up having a Viper for fun sailing in Switzerland and an Elite for the quality of the one design racing in the UK.

 

The Viper is by far the best of the sportsboats I have sailed. Very responsive and easy to sail. Miles faster than the Open 5,70 and often up with the Melges 24's we have here. There was one in Cowes Week this year which was always a long way in front in the sportsboat class in which I thought I saw a J70 competing. I often sail the boat alone (not racing) in up to force 3/4 for fun which is only possible with the spi chute and using a (non-class) trapeze. Also very easy to launch/recover. Effectively a bigger, safer dinghy giving the thrill of skiff sailing.

 

Hope this is helpful

 

Agree, the Viper is an excellent fun sporty day sailer for our mountain lake conditions at Lake Dillon, CO (9200 feet.) I sail mostly two up with my wife, son and daughter. We have added a furling jib for flexibility. I have sailed singlehanded in Force 4 with jib furled and still reached double digit boat speeds.

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Nice image of tooling - did they spray the gelcoat outside ?

 

No Way. That's no bueno for the environment. Built Inside, within a controlled air environment. It was put outside for post cure after a day in the booth. First Deck is done....it's a work of art!

 

Ben P, Paul Z and crew are to be commended!

 

Pics to follow!

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Where are the Vipers ?

 

How'd this thread turn into a U20 lovefest ?

 

Because that is the kind of people U20 owners are..... Passionate!

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