U20guy2

65- by 32-foot catamaran 3200sqft of living space

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...

One person identified the sail config, he is here.

...

Are you trying to do a wishbone ketch?

 

post-180-0-62393600-1379457822_thumb.jpg

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Hot rod:

Generally speaking:

The best rudders are made from carbon fiber over foam with solid wood or high density foam blocking where the hardware is bolted on.

 

Your kick up rudders could be solid, laminated wood, shaped and then covered in grp. Make the thickness of the blade 17% of the chord length (leading edge to trailing edge dimension). A nice, fat rudder blade will give you more strength. You are going to need a thick GRP skin to add some strength to the blade. If one breaks you have a spare. Just make the next one stronger.

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I still wonder what u all make rudders out of?

 

Most modern boats use fiberglass combined with wood or foam or steel or all of the above. Carbon for the racing crowd is common. A wood core rudder (not plywood, hardwood) covered with fiberglass is quite common on small boats. Larger boats quite often use steel/foam/glass construction. This is one area where you need lots of strength.

 

here's a simple design that uses ply/hardwood:

post-180-0-60176900-1379458518_thumb.jpg

 

I'd cover it with several layers of glass.

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U get a *

Who gets the * ?

 

let it be me...oh please, please, please.

 

Oh great, B Perry is here. Like that guy know anything, pffft.

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I'm shure u r as informed as u have proven with the numerous previous predictions still never seeing this vessel.

Only one person identified the hull type/shape and he's not on this site.

One person identified the sail config, he is here.

And no one here has trans crossing experience on a catamaran,

that i know about .

 

the experience here is limited.

 

 

even after checking out 10,000 trannies you may not want to be braggin in SA

 

Rather take it to PA :o:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

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I have to admit, when I started reading this thread, I read page 1, then jumped to page 77 as I had been reading about this project on another forum. having just read page 2, I spent ten minutes laughing my ass off.

 

bhyde, those construction pics are hilarious. The comments even more so....

 

is it worth reading all of the 77 pages? Is there lots of humour buried in there?

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I have to admit, when I started reading this thread, I read page 1, then jumped to page 77 as I had been reading about this project on another forum. having just read page 2, I spent ten minutes laughing my ass off.

 

bhyde, those construction pics are hilarious. The comments even more so....

 

is it worth reading all of the 77 pages? Is there lots of humour buried in there?

 

 

just be thankfull you have pages set to 100 B)

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Why do I have this constant feeling we're dealing with tim "the toolman" taylor here.......

 

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If u can't c ur pics ,y u give us a hard time?

 

Why is asking perfectly normal questions "giving you a hard time?"

 

 

The combo halyard wire is short.I'm not good enough at splicing to trust my handywork,if u r a rigger u understand,splicing taks a bit of an artistic finesse with experience. I know wher to stop.

 

Know where to stop? Funniest comment in a long time

 

HotRod, it doesn't take any experience or great skill to splice a line. All it takes is the ability to follow instructions instead of just making shit up and pretending you know. Studying 1,000s of ropes won't do it either.

 

Building a rudder is much the same... of course, first you have to have a place on the boat to attach it...

 

FB- Doug

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I am thinking Jack may be a little too old.

How about Verne, Billy Bob Thornton or that My Name Is Earl guy?

We'll get Jack Nicholson to play Hot Rod in the movie.

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I am thinking Jack may be a little too old.

How about Verne, Billy Bob Thornton or that My Name Is Earl guy?

We'll get Jack Nicholson to play Hot Rod in the movie.

 

Anthony Hopkins has the most relevant experience...

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I never asked for help sailing ,thats the fun part.

And i managed to build the sponsons,load them on a trailer transport them 175 mils without damage.put the rest of the cat together,load the tons of cat back on the trailer move it and put it in without a hich. And i think that was the hard part.

And we r green ,solar,wind and water.

we make our own counter tops ,dressers ,everything.

 

If FH was anything like described here ,id recycle it!

 

Wasn't there a hitch with the hitch? Didn't you snap it off on first attempt?

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I have to admit, when I started reading this thread, I read page 1, then jumped to page 77 as I had been reading about this project on another forum. having just read page 2, I spent ten minutes laughing my ass off.

 

bhyde, those construction pics are hilarious. The comments even more so....

 

is it worth reading all of the 77 pages? Is there lots of humour buried in there?

 

OH YES INDEEDY!

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Rod, why are you so frightened of giving anyone a straight answer ? Is it a wishbone ketch ? And if so, why the extra stick ? And where's the wishbone shaped boom the rig is named after ? Is there an answer ? Do you actually know what your doing and if so, why be so unwilling to explain to all us what that might be ?

Usually when someone of exceptional intelligence comes along, they often share that knowledge for the betterment of others. Kinda like some of the more experienced guys do on various forums when newbies come in asking questions ans seeking advice.

But I can't help but notice that rather than offer any answers you tend to hide behind the false bravado of humor. Why do you suppose that is ?

Could it be those really are pictures of the FH on those first few pages and that really is your work, for all to see ? When people see that kinda work, is this how you've always handled criticism ? By blocking it out, ignoring it and sheltering behind some imaginary humor, only you seem to understand ?

Rod I wonder if you realize that some people will see someone teetering on a ledge, and shout jump, others simply watch enthralled, in morbid curiosity, others might try and talk them down. It takes all kinds. Rod I don't think anyone who knows what they are doing has looked at your work on the boat and declared it safe and seaworthy. Have you more than one or two experiences of people seeing the pictures and declaring it safe ? Compared to the hundreds who's told you otherwise.

Come in from the ledge Rod.

think it over,

Go up the delta to a nice quiet spot where you can rest in the mud in peace from prying eyes and enjoy the boat for what it is.

cheers
B

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Hot rod:

Generally speaking:

The best rudders are made from carbon fiber over foam with solid wood or high density foam blocking where the hardware is bolted on.

 

Your kick up rudders could be solid, laminated wood, shaped and then covered in grp. Make the thickness of the blade 17% of the chord length (leading edge to trailing edge dimension). A nice, fat rudder blade will give you more strength. You are going to need a thick GRP skin to add some strength to the blade. If one breaks you have a spare. Just make the next one stronger.

No point in making strong rudders. Check out how close together the pintles are and the size of the pins.

 

He needs to cut the existing ones in half I think, for the pintles to have any chance.

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Yes I did snap it off. .I did it without a hich. U know many that can do that.

I have moved tractor traylers the same way.

And y is the rudder sleeve a bad place for the rudder? 3/4"pins 1/4"thickplate box all stainless 1"pivot pin. And the rudder isn't broken.

I'm changing the cables to linkages. Nothing more.

I wonder what u guys r looking at ???????

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I have to admit, when I started reading this thread, I read page 1, then jumped to page 77 as I had been reading about this project on another forum. having just read page 2, I spent ten minutes laughing my ass off.

 

bhyde, those construction pics are hilarious. The comments even more so....

 

is it worth reading all of the 77 pages? Is there lots of humour buried in there?

OH YES INDEEDY!

There are people that have mysteriously disappeared in those pages.

Keep building and posting HR I'm a fan

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We r waiting to c if pd shows up to ask about the vessel we recovered and returned.

I'm so looking forward to leaveing here.

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1000 gallons of resin by my rough maths is approx 8000 lbs ..really HR??...

 

Depends on the VOC content, a good bit of that mass is supposed to go into the air as it cures.

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Is it just me, or does 1/4" diamond plate seem woefully undersized for rudder mounts on this size boat? I'm using 1/4" ss on my 22' mono...

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And y is the rudder sleeve a bad place for the rudder? 3/4"pins 1/4"thickplate box all stainless 1"pivot pin. And the rudder isn't broken.

I'm changing the cables to linkages. Nothing more.

I wonder what u guys r looking at ???????

 

A rudder stock for a run-of-the-mill 35-footer is around 2" diameter or larger.

And they still break sometimes.

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And y is the rudder sleeve a bad place for the rudder? 3/4"pins 1/4"thickplate box all stainless 1"pivot pin. And the rudder isn't broken.

I'm changing the cables to linkages. Nothing more.

I wonder what u guys r looking at ???????

A rudder stock for a run-of-the-mill 35-footer is around 2" diameter or larger.

And they still break sometimes.

My J35 uses a fiberglass stock that is 4 inch diameter with big ball bearings top and bottom.

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1/4" galvanized is what I used for my back yard lagoon dock. Inside and outside corners. All stringers (joists). 1./4" seem undersized for a 65' yacht. In fact, I witnessed a neighbors dock split even with 1/4" when the lagoon pumps failed and pretty much emptied it. Really... just a few months ago. The dock is replaced. One thing, It lists badly for the gardener who built it forgot about the weight of the ramp Think 45 degree angle at that point load.

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Docks and galvanized and monohulls! Any body have a 50'-60' yacht on this site

Or a Catamaran. the disruption i gave was for one side cats have two rudders two pivot pins

two sleeves a made of stainless steal billit welded together ,not bent diamondplate.

 

This is a waste

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Dwight Yokum will play Hot Rod.

Not another sock!

 

Swan65 ;)

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Monohull Rudders don't retract or pivot .

 

They only swing and there is only one.

The lead weight on the botom of ur 30'monohull

weighs more than my yacht.

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1000 gallons of resin by my rough maths is approx 8000 lbs ..really HR??...

 

Depends on the VOC content, a good bit of that mass is supposed to go into the air as it cures.

Yea well, i am not buying that HR lined up over 22 x 44 gallon drums of epoxy resin and smothered his boat in the stuff...i mean if you were going to use that much resin wouldn't you do the smart thing and actually build it out of glass and resin...8000 lbs of resin would be enough for a 60ft cat with out the construction ply rotting away under it..

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Monohull Rudders don't retract or pivot .

 

They only swing and there is only one.

The lead weight on the botom of ur 30'monohull

weighs more than my yacht.

 

I am not smart enough to see how any of those statements make 3/4" rudder shafts strong enough.

 

The rudder pins on my old Hobie 16 were 3/8" stainless. Those retract and pivot.

Shouldn't a boat that is 4-times longer have rudder pins 4-times bigger?

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Monohull Rudders don't retract or pivot .

 

They only swing and there is only one.

The lead weight on the botom of ur 30'monohull

weighs more than my yacht.

 

I am not smart enough to see how any of those statements make 3/4" rudder shafts strong enough.

 

The rudder pins on my old Hobie 16 were 3/8" stainless. Those retract and pivot.

Shouldn't a boat that is 4-times longer have rudder pins 4-times bigger?

 

 

Depends - How fast did your H-16 go

 

I've had a Hobie-14, 16, 18 - Prindle 18 & NACRA 5.2

 

and to this day, I wouldn't trade Any of my Old Kat's for teh F-H

 

(even not knowing the condition the Kat's I owned Oh So Long Ago)

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Monohull Rudders don't retract or pivot .

 

They only swing and there is only one.

The lead weight on the botom of ur 30'monohull

weighs more than my yacht.

 

Actually, very often rudders on a monohull do retract or pivot.

 

Many monohulls have dual rudders.

 

There is no way the keel on pretty much any monohull comes even close to the weight of the FH, this I can tell from the pics. But just to be sure, how much does the FH weigh?

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Monohull Rudders don't retract or pivot .

 

They only swing and there is only one.

The lead weight on the botom of ur 30'monohull

weighs more than my yacht.

 

I am not smart enough to see how any of those statements make 3/4" rudder shafts strong enough.

 

The rudder pins on my old Hobie 16 were 3/8" stainless. Those retract and pivot.

Shouldn't a boat that is 4-times longer have rudder pins 4-times bigger?

 

Not necessarily. Rather than a linear progression, it could be exponential.

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I am not smart enough to see how any of those statements make 3/4" rudder shafts strong enough.

 

The rudder pins on my old Hobie 16 were 3/8" stainless. Those retract and pivot.

Shouldn't a boat that is 4-times longer have rudder pins 4-times bigger?

 

Not necessarily. Rather than a linear progression, it could be exponential.

 

I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

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I am not smart enough to see how any of those statements make 3/4" rudder shafts strong enough.

 

The rudder pins on my old Hobie 16 were 3/8" stainless. Those retract and pivot.

Shouldn't a boat that is 4-times longer have rudder pins 4-times bigger?

 

Not necessarily. Rather than a linear progression, it could be exponential.

 

I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

 

YES

 

but the F-H's cubes have been melting :)

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We r waiting to c if pd shows up to ask about the vessel we recovered and returned.

I'm so looking forward to leaveing here.

 

I hope you are leaving for a more sheltered place to sit in the mud? Don't head for Hawaii until you have a proper well found vessel, or you will be sorry. Many of us have crossed oceans, maybe not in a plywood Catamaran, but you have no idea what you are up against, if you try to cross the Pacific.

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And y is the rudder sleeve a bad place for the rudder? 3/4"pins 1/4"thickplate box all stainless 1"pivot pin. And the rudder isn't broken.

I'm changing the cables to linkages. Nothing more.

I wonder what u guys r looking at ???????

 

A rudder stock for a run-of-the-mill 35-footer is around 2" diameter or larger.

And they still break sometimes.

 

Yeah, but that's only on boats that actually sail

 

Besides, do you really understand how STRONG steel is? U dnnt have eny experiences! Can you break steel with yr hands? No Can U move the rutter with yr hands? So steel is strong enough fr rudter QED

 

See, I understand the HotROd design process perfctly, thats why he thinks everybody else is stupid

 

FB- Doug

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I'm shure u r as informed as u have proven with the numerous previous predictions still never seeing this vessel.

Only one person identified the hull type/shape and he's not on this site.

One person identified the sail config, he is here.

And no one here has trans crossing experience on a catamaran,

that i know about .

 

the experience here is limited.

 

By 'here' you mean inside the FH, right?

 

You seemed a lot less dumb before you started posting regularly. Now you've gone from dumb to dumberer.

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I'm shure u r as informed as u have proven with the numerous previous predictions still never seeing this vessel.

Only one person identified the hull type/shape and he's not on this site.

One person identified the sail config, he is here.

And no one here has trans crossing experience on a catamaran,

that i know about .

 

the experience here is limited.

 

By 'here' you mean inside the FH, right?

 

You seemed a lot less dumb before you started posting regularly. Now you've gone from dumb to dumberer.

Yeah. Lets insult & chase away the subject of the thread. Good plan.

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Has anyone attempted to estimate a SA/D ratio for the FH?

 

Guessing displacement is likely in the 15K to 18K lb range (more than reported by the ROD....less than it should be for a seaworthy vessel of its size)

 

Seems like it should be possible. With that and a couple other "known" dimensions (LWL, etc) we might even be able to take a guess at the polars. I'm guessing it probably should be able to make some way about 75 to 80 degrees apparent upwind or basically no higher than a beam reach true wind.

 

If nothing else should add some interesting new conversation to the thread!

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Staysail Ketch.

 

It's an uncommon rig without any particular merits.

 

Clearly not. Are we looking at the same pictures? It's missing a boom for the main mast, and wtf is that long angled pole thing? It also doesn't have one of the key features of a staysail rig, which is a staysail. There's only one forestay, I don't see anywhere to rig a staysail.

 

It looks like the long angled thing could sort of be a gaff, but it's too long and looks to be fixed at the bottom of the "mast".

 

I think it's a spritsail ketch. The spritsail is something I've never heard of but just looked up and is apparently a thing. image002.jpg

 

This would also serve to increase his sail area considerably over our initial calculations assuming that it was a triangular sail.

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senor caliente has studied 1,000's of opti's (sailplan) and sunfish (rutters)

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So is it a spritsail ketch? We're genuinely curious about the sailplan. Do you have any downwind sails or are you just going to wing and wing?

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Staysail Ketch.

 

It's an uncommon rig without any particular merits.

 

Clearly not. Are we looking at the same pictures? It's missing a boom for the main mast,

 

Yeah...

 

I stopped reading right there.

By your logic, the yacht America, which won the 100 Guinea Cup in 1851, isn't a schooner.

 

Do a Google image search on staysail ketch, then go back and edit your post.

 

And to the spritsail advocates: how do you deal with the mizzen headstay?

 

And because James seems to take delight in meting out cryptic and incomplete information, there is no info on the diagonal spar.

Since second-hand sails to fit that space would be very rare, I doubt it's for a sail. I'm sticking with "Cargo Boom" and/or "Dinghy Davit".

Though the rarity of proper sails for that fisherman(?) area hasn't stopped other innovative and adaptive sailor from hoisting "something" up there.

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We saw the framing Rod, and we understood it to be of such poor quality that people began multiple discussions across the internet as to what you could possibly be thinking. Whats different about the rig, and why not show it to us ? Or at least explain it ? So far no one can make heads or tails out of it.

Again I think we can all see your avoiding the questions and sheltering behind the false humor. Obviously your posting here in some effort to gain attention and approval, Your convinced your going to eventually show all of us up and pull the proverbial rabbit out of a hat. So why not show us, or explain the rig to us, are you concerned you'll meet with the same reaction everything else has ? Will you reconsider then ? You seem to think that a couple hem fir 2xs glued with who knows what constitutes a glue lam. Why ? Your sails fell apart soon as you set them and now there in the shop, someone else making it right, why ? Why waste money on sails if your about to go to court on the assault charge ? Thought Viking said you were going up the Delta ?

I think you respond with gibberish because you think all these questions are gibberish. What if they're not ? What if you made one whopping huge monumental mistake and you need to fix it just like a rational adult would do. Are you acting rationally Rod ?

Don't respond, I'm not really expecting you to, but as you walk into that courtroom, you might want to reconsider a lot of things you've been doing lately, not just the finger biting incident.

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So is it a spritsail ketch? We're genuinely curious about the sailplan. Do you have any downwind sails or are you just going to wing and wing?

 

You really need to stop.

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A Shrubber

What does that mean?
"Crazier than a coconut..."

 

Fetch, dogs...

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HR has told me that the diagonal boom will be used to hoist a Lateen style sail. ....also plans to use it for a Hawaiian crabclaw sail later.

 

If you ask legitimate questions politely and he likes you, HR may PM you directly.

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Hay ,I'm a big part of the entertainment "here"( referring to the site again).

I'm doing my part.

So relax and remember its "web". bloody Pirates

I'm enjoying ur part as well. Except ur being critical of the dead.

His friends all called him "captain" affectionately.

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hey folks - here's a link to how to calc rudder loads. Displacement doesn't matter. Estimated max speed does. Rod - you might want to look at this to see how to build an "emergency" rudder - but you could also build your regular rudder this way.

 

http://www.well.com/~pk/PCrudder.html

 

3) CALCULATE FORCE ON THE BLADE:

Use the formula:

F = A * Cl * 1/2 * RHO * V^2

F = force (lb)
A = area below transom (ft^2)
Cl = Coeff. of lift (use 3.0 to allow for pumping transients)
RHO = density of water (1.9905 slugs/ft^3)
V = design speed (ft/sec)
(1 knot = 1.6878 ft/sec)

F = 8.5 * A * V^2

F = force (lb)
A = area below transom (ft^2)
V = design speed (knots)

[example: 1 ft. x 4 ft. blade, 7 knots: F = 1,666 lb.]

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This tread is really starting to slow down, why don’t we all leave the HR alone so that he can finish his boat! Until he either tries to motor her or sail her someplace there really is nothing to report.

 

Congrats HR for being the quickest Anarchist to reach 400 posts! Well done! Now stop waisting your time on SA and get back to work on the task at hand!

 

 

And how about this for some boat building!

http://www.peterkovesi.com/home/farr37/

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I'm sticking with "Cargo Boom" and/or "Dinghy Davit".

 

that spar isn't long enough to reach over the side to be anything meaningful in that area. Your guesses are getting closer to what HR is thinking, I'll drop a very misleading hint, since it has been brought up. Thames River Barge. note: that hint is very misleading. HR will let you know what it is when he's ready

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Monohull Rudders don't retract or pivot .

 

They only swing and there is only one.

The lead weight on the botom of ur 30'monohull

weighs more than my yacht.

 

I am not smart enough to see how any of those statements make 3/4" rudder shafts strong enough.

 

The rudder pins on my old Hobie 16 were 3/8" stainless. Those retract and pivot.

Shouldn't a boat that is 4-times longer have rudder pins 4-times bigger?

 

As I said earlier, the rudder hardware looks strangely undersized, but it is hard to know if/when it will break. First, the 3/4" seems to refer to a pin not a rudder shaft (it is not clear if this is the pivot pin or the pintle), so it is not directly comparable to a the size of a rudder shaft which would be loaded quite a lot higher than either the pivot pin or the pintle. Second, max rudder loads are determined almost entirely by boat speed. A rudder with 4 times the area, but installed on a boat that goes half as fast will generate the same maximum lateral loads. How fast will this boat be going?

 

Said another way, if this boat goes the same speed as a J24 and had rudders the size of a J24, then the size of the pintles on a J24 would be fine for this boat even though the FH is much much larger.

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I'm shure u r as informed as u have proven with the numerous previous predictions still never seeing this vessel.

Only one person identified the hull type/shape and he's not on this site.

One person identified the sail config, he is here.

And no one here has trans crossing experience on a catamaran,

that i know about .

 

the experience here is limited.

I crossed a trans once. She gave me a black eye.

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I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

Nope. The maximum forces on the rudder are determined by the velocity of water over the rudder and its distribution of area, not the size of the vessel.

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I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

Nope. The maximum forces on the rudder are determined by the velocity of water over the rudder and its distribution of area, not the size of the vessel.

 

But that does not necessarily mean that the rudder(s) can turn the boat either...

 

We saw the framing Rod, and we understood it to be of such poor quality that people began multiple discussions across the internet as to what you could possibly be thinking. Whats different about the rig, and why not show it to us ? Or at least explain it ? So far no one can make heads or tails out of it.

 

Again I think we can all see your avoiding the questions and sheltering behind the false humor. Obviously your posting here in some effort to gain attention and approval, Your convinced your going to eventually show all of us up and pull the proverbial rabbit out of a hat. So why not show us, or explain the rig to us, are you concerned you'll meet with the same reaction everything else has ? Will you reconsider then ? You seem to think that a couple hem fir 2xs glued with who knows what constitutes a glue lam. Why ? Your sails fell apart soon as you set them and now there in the shop, someone else making it right, why ? Why waste money on sails if your about to go to court on the assault charge ? Thought Viking said you were going up the Delta ?

 

I think you respond with gibberish because you think all these questions are gibberish. What if they're not ? What if you made one whopping huge monumental mistake and you need to fix it just like a rational adult would do. Are you acting rationally Rod ?

 

Don't respond, I'm not really expecting you to, but as you walk into that courtroom, you might want to reconsider a lot of things you've been doing lately, not just the finger biting incident.

 

 

Seriously, why do you bother? It must take time to type all that.

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I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

Nope. The maximum forces on the rudder are determined by the velocity of water over the rudder and its distribution of area, not the size of the vessel.

 

 

Umm, the lateral resistance and inertia of the boat DOES make a difference. A lightweight fin keeler will spin right around with little force applied by the rudder, a heavy-heavy full-keeler will load it up hard.

 

FB- Doug

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Talk of a minor front blowing through end of this week in the North Bay. The time line is getting shorter for the FH to get moving south or get with it and head up the delta.

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I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

Nope. The maximum forces on the rudder are determined by the velocity of water over the rudder and its distribution of area, not the size of the vessel.

Force has direction, care to try again?

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I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

Nope. The maximum forces on the rudder are determined by the velocity of water over the rudder and its distribution of area, not the size of the vessel.

 

 

Umm, the lateral resistance and inertia of the boat DOES make a difference. A lightweight fin keeler will spin right around with little force applied by the rudder, a heavy-heavy full-keeler will load it up hard.

 

FB- Doug

 

 

Not really. The maximum force occurs in the condition in which you make a rapid change in rudder angle resulting in the AOA that yields the largest possible hydrodymanic force. Essentially all rudders can turn faster than the boats to which they are attached (fin keel, full keel, no keel it does not matter) so the size or angular momentum of the boat is irrelevant to max loading so long as you can turn the rudder fast enough to achieve that AOA.

 

I think you are confused by the fact that some boats require either more average rudder force or for the force to be applied for a longer time in order to turn the boat. The required strength of a rudder is not determined by average loads or the amount of time it will be loaded, but on the maximum load it will see.

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I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

Nope. The maximum forces on the rudder are determined by the velocity of water over the rudder and its distribution of area, not the size of the vessel.

Force has direction, care to try again?

 

I am pretty familiar with force calculations, but I don't follow what you are driving at here. Or course the maximum force vector created by a rudder could be achieved at range of different angles relative to the boat. The rudder and mounting hardware needs to be able to handle that vector. None of that contradicts or limits what I said.

 

You are not going to be able to find any Naval Architecture or Ocean Engineering texts that disagree with what I said. My verbal description is entirely consistent with the formula posted by Occams Razor earlier. It is reflected in all modern engineer standards for yacht structures including: ABS, Lloyd's, Veritas, GL.

 

Don't you find it ironic that many of the people who blast HR for his idiosyncratic approach to engineering are themselves just relying on their own engineering intuition, completely without the aid of load calculations, tables of accepted materials properties, or even guidelines from classification societies? While I seriously doubt that the FH will hold up to any offshore sailing, Hot Rod's eyeball engineering has - to date - had a better track record than most of the eyeball engineers who have been posting to this thread.

 

Why would a particular rudder at a given speed and a given angle relative to the flow create more force if it were attached to a supertanker instead of a Hobie 16? It wouldn't.

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Staysail Ketch.

 

It's an uncommon rig without any particular merits.

Clearly not. Are we looking at the same pictures? It's missing a boom for the main mast,

Yeah...

 

I stopped reading right there.

By your logic, the yacht America, which won the 100 Guinea Cup in 1851, isn't a schooner.

 

Do a Google image search on staysail ketch, then go back and edit your post.

 

And to the spritsail advocates: how do you deal with the mizzen headstay?

 

And because James seems to take delight in meting out cryptic and incomplete information, there is no info on the diagonal spar.

Since second-hand sails to fit that space would be very rare, I doubt it's for a sail. I'm sticking with "Cargo Boom" and/or "Dinghy Davit".

Though the rarity of proper sails for that fisherman(?) area hasn't stopped other innovative and adaptive sailor from hoisting "something" up there.

A cargo boom to lift the Harzuki on and off? If the Rod was any good, he'd ride up and down the stairs like D-Day.

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HR has told me that the diagonal boom will be used to hoist a Lateen style sail. ....also plans to use it for a Hawaiian crabclaw sail later.

 

Christopher Columbus got so sick of dealing with Nina's lateen sailplan that he rerigged it to square in the middle of the ocean, halfway across the Atlantic.

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HR has told me that the diagonal boom will be used to hoist a Lateen style sail. ....also plans to use it for a Hawaiian crabclaw sail later.

 

Christopher Columbus got so sick of dealing with Nina's lateen sailplan that he rerigged it to square in the middle of the ocean, halfway across the Atlantic.

Columbus was a cunt. The end.

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I'm not up on the math, but shouldn't the shear strength of the rudder shaft be a function of the displacement of the boat?

And doesn't the shear strength by diameter correspond loosely with the displacement by length? Aren't they both [very roughly] cubes?

 

Nope. The maximum forces on the rudder are determined by the velocity of water over the rudder and its distribution of area, not the size of the vessel.

Force has direction, care to try again?

 

I am pretty familiar with force calculations, but I don't follow what you are driving at here. Or course the maximum force vector created by a rudder could be achieved at range of different angles relative to the boat. The rudder and mounting hardware needs to be able to handle that vector. None of that contradicts or limits what I said.

 

You are not going to be able to find any Naval Architecture or Ocean Engineering texts that disagree with what I said. My verbal description is entirely consistent with the formula posted by Occams Razor earlier. It is reflected in all modern engineer standards for yacht structures including: ABS, Lloyd's, Veritas, GL.

 

Don't you find it ironic that many of the people who blast HR for his idiosyncratic approach to engineering are themselves just relying on their own engineering intuition, completely without the aid of load calculations, tables of accepted materials properties, or even guidelines from classification societies? While I seriously doubt that the FH will hold up to any offshore sailing, Hot Rod's eyeball engineering has - to date - had a better track record than most of the eyeball engineers who have been posting to this thread.

 

Why would a particular rudder at a given speed and a given angle relative to the flow create more force if it were attached to a supertanker instead of a Hobie 16? It wouldn't.

That's a start... Don't get your knickers in a twist over it. I am sure that there are a ton of finite element modelling tools out there, or take the Buckminster Fuller approach, build it really weak, let it fail, build it a bit stronger and repeat. Or study thousands of designs and see what they did.

 

Funny thing is this thing looks like a Hobie Cat on Steroids below the toe rail, well not really but...

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Why would a particular rudder at a given speed and a given angle relative to the flow create more force if it were attached to a supertanker instead of a Hobie 16? It wouldn't.

 

Umm, wrong

 

That methodology may be a standard way of deciding how strong it should be built; given in engineering textbooks to people who neither know nor care about physics.

 

However, ACCELERATION is also present in real-world forces & moments. A vessel which accelerates in rotation readily will generate less force on the rudder than a vessel with exactly the same size & shape rudder in exactly the same flow velocity, but which accelerates very slowly in rotation.

 

Which is going to generate more force... a Laser rudder at angle X on a Laser sailing at 10 knots, or a Laser rudder at angle X hooked to a dock over water moving past it at 10 knots?

 

Why do people assume that engineering textbooks... which basically give recipes for how to build stuff so it won't break... contain the total sum of knowledge to be gained about a general or global approach?

 

FB- Doug

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