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Ajax

Twings, guys, or none of the above?

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I searched the archives for twings and I got a lot of references on doing things with them, but it still didn't answer my question as to their exact function or whether they are interchangeable with guys.

 

I have a 30', 8300lb. boat (Pearson 30), and now I have a symmetric spinnaker rig. It seems that on larger boats (35 + feet) that guys are used to help control the pole, and sheets trim the sail. On smaller boats, the sheets perform the function of both? Do twings also perform the function of guys on smaller boats? (say, 25-30 feet) How are twings attached? I don't have secondary winches yet. I have found shackle points amidships that seem to indicate that guy or twing blocks were present at one point.

 

I guess what I'm asking is, on my 30' boat, should I go with full-blown guys, twings, or just use the spin sheets to control everything?

 

Thanks.

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Mount the deck-side of the twing line to the mid-ship pad eye. Then run the twing to the sheet (sheet will freely run through the twing). When you pull down on the twing, you are bringing the sheet down toward the deck, giving more control of the pole (if on the pole side) or choking down the spin (if the clew side).

 

Don't worry about not having a winch for the twing. With a 2-1 tackle, it should be more than enough purchase (this worked on an Express 37, so should be good for the P30). Just have the twing line lock-off in a cam cleat (maybe attached to the deck-side of the tackle rather than run back to cockpit), and you are good to go.

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Twings usually consist of a small block that the sheet is led through forward of the rear sheet blocks. The control line for the twing goes down to a block at the deck or the rail at a point a little aft of the max beam and back to a cam cleat usually so you can pull it in when the sheet is used as the guy and let it out on the other tack. Alternatively you can just have a second block on the rail on a track that you slide forward when serving as the guy and back when its the sheet. A bit simpler and works fine but not as convenient. On a boat this size with the masthead chute you really want to get that guy side block forward. Helps control the pole and your guy doesn't bear against your lifelines.

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My friend has a Pearson 30 and he uses twings and mounted the cleats for them on the side of the cabin near his foreguy cleat. I don't remember where he led the other side to. I'll see what I can do about getting pictures of his setup, but it will be next week since I'm racing the whole weekend.

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Ajax,

The Guy is the sheet and the sheet is the guy. They are interchangeable (it depends on which sheet the pole is attached to(this is the Guy) the other is the sheet. You are referring to the Downfucker or the Sidefucker (Dwonhaul or twing). This all depends on how your boat is set up. It sounds like you are set up for twings and brian has that covered. The Downhaul would be lead on centerline to an eye on the foredeck where it would be attached directly to the pole. Some boats have a bridle that has a ring opposing the uphaul or Upfucker, and some attach it directly to a ring in the back end of the jaw of the pole. A downhaul makes it difficult to do end for end Gybes which are faster so therefore people use twings.. Also Twings allow you to strap down the chute when things get dodgy (pull em both on hard when the wind is blowing so you get more controol) they will also let you settle the chute when gybing making it easier to handle.

 

Have fun.

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Ajax,

30' boat, twings yes. No need for separate guys. Twings, use a small snatch block or similar so you can attach them to the sheet, then a small block a midship on the rail, lead the twings to cam cleats on the top corner of the doghouse or where ever else makes ergonomic sense for you. Heavy air gybe, twing down and go!

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Ajax,

30' boat, twings yes. No need for separate guys. Twings, use a small snatch block or similar so you can attach them to the sheet, then a small block a midship on the rail, lead the twings to cam cleats on the top corner of the doghouse or where ever else makes ergonomic sense for you. Heavy air gybe, twing down and go!

 

Ajax, the above is how our boat is set up. Next time we meet up we can go through it if you want.

 

I may also have a picture that shows it... lemme look.

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On the C&C 29 i race beer cans wit, the twings are a pully shackle, attached to a line which goes through a pully/ cleat that is one piece. Even in 20 knots it isnt hard to yank them in by hand. The hard part is making sure you dont wrap the guy over the lifelines when you do. As for the tail we run them under all the sheets and halyards and tie them together on the cabin top. Out of the way yet still reachable.

 

Ajax, why are end for end gybes harder with a downfucker? I have never had a problem, as long as the genoa sheets are long enough.

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You will be fine with twings:

1. If you use "less strechy' type of line made in the last 15 yrs.

2. It is not blowing 25 +.

3. If you have a figure 8 knot tied on the end of the twing line so it does not 'run out'.

 

Be very careful of the Guy stretching with each puff and smacking the headstay.

 

YMMV

Sail safe!

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Ajax,

30' boat, twings yes. No need for separate guys. Twings, use a small snatch block or similar so you can attach them to the sheet, then a small block a midship on the rail, lead the twings to cam cleats on the top corner of the doghouse or where ever else makes ergonomic sense for you. Heavy air gybe, twing down and go!

 

A-ha! The boat had to have had twings. There are cleats on the coaming corners, and padeyes for the rail blocks are adjustable. Let me clarify this last bit:

 

Someone added inner jib tracks, forward of the main tracks to my boat so that you can hard-sheet small jibs inside the shrouds. At forward end of the tracks, (midships) are adjustable cars that are nothing but padeyes that you can attach blocks to (in addition to the usual jib cars that are sharing the track).

 

I've almost got a mental picture of the way you say twings work, and connect but not quite. A photo or sketch would be worth a thousand words.

 

Good stuff tho, keep it coming.

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On the C&C 29 i race beer cans wit, the twings are a pully shackle, attached to a line which goes through a pully/ cleat that is one piece. Even in 20 knots it isnt hard to yank them in by hand. The hard part is making sure you dont wrap the guy over the lifelines when you do. As for the tail we run them under all the sheets and halyards and tie them together on the cabin top. Out of the way yet still reachable.

 

Ajax, why are end for end gybes harder with a downfucker? I have never had a problem, as long as the genoa sheets are long enough.

 

More crap to get in the way and if you have it attached to the pole end you have to dip. Bridle I donno, but if your boat is small enough to have a bridle on the pole you really don't need a downfucker do ya??

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On the C&C 29 i race beer cans wit, the twings are a pully shackle, attached to a line which goes through a pully/ cleat that is one piece. Even in 20 knots it isnt hard to yank them in by hand. The hard part is making sure you dont wrap the guy over the lifelines when you do. As for the tail we run them under all the sheets and halyards and tie them together on the cabin top. Out of the way yet still reachable.

 

Ajax, why are end for end gybes harder with a downfucker? I have never had a problem, as long as the genoa sheets are long enough.

 

More crap to get in the way and if you have it attached to the pole end you have to dip. Bridle I donno, but if your boat is small enough to have a bridle on the pole you really don't need a downfucker do ya??

 

Size of boat isn't what determines the use of a bridle on a pole. if you gybe end-for-end, us a bridle. There's also no boat size parameter that dictates when you use end-for-end gybing versus dip pole. It's more related to how easy it is to manhandle the pole.

 

In addition, there's no boat size that dictates when you should use a single sheet/guy versus double. It's more a function of wind speed and ease of gybing. Double sheets and guys make heavy air gybing much easier on the foredeck crew because you can fly the chute on the sheets through the gybe leaving the guys unloaded. The foredeck crew can then easily lead the unloaded guy through the pole's jaws and push the pole back out.

 

Ajex,

further to what others have said about pulling the twings down in heavy air and during gybes, the lee side twing is also trimmed when sailing deeper (similar in concept to moving a genoa car forward when reaching). It controls twist and also allows the boom to be eased further, particularly in heavy air when you may need to dump the main.

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Ajax,

 

For your boat twings are a yes but double sheets and guys a no for virtually all conditions. End for end on gybing the pole. Once you get above 35' and are gybing the chute in heavy air, doubles make sense as you can "make" the new pole without it being under load and then switch it over. Adds a bunch of complexity you don't need.

 

Edit. WHL nailed it.

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Image isn't working, just scroll down to post #6

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/77915-j-29-spinnaker-setup.html

 

I can stop by next week and lay something out for ya for twings. I have a bridle and a downhaul for the pole on my boat, and I also have twings. However the bit that attaches to the sheet is just a snap shackle. My boat is small enough that I don't need a block, and if it goes light, just pop the shackle off.

 

The turning blocks at the toe rail are Ti-lites from harken. Easy to lash to the toe rail, or in your case, a pad eye.

 

Make a bridle, route downfucker

Make some twings (pick your end fitting, snatch block, shackle, ferrule, whatever)

Make some sheets, one pair.

Go have fun.

 

image-full.png

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I've almost got a mental picture of the way you say twings work, and connect but not quite. A photo or sketch would be worth a thousand words.

 

Good stuff tho, keep it coming.

 

You asked this at the top and no one answered so let me try, but I don't have drawing.

 

Imagine setting your spinnaker pole up but without the spinnaker.

 

What is it that keeps the pole "stable?

 

essentially it is a triangle of three lines:


  1.  
  2. Topping lift pulls up and in
  3. Foreguy pulls forward and down and in
  4. Guy pulls aft and down and in.
     

 

now in the case of the spinnaker sheet - the load on the sheet is MAINLY FORWARD, and you don't want much in the way of downforce at all, so you run it as aft as possible.

 

Wheras with the guy you WANT the downward force so as to counteract the lifting energy of the kite, you have some of that downward force in the foreguy, but this also has a bit of a forward component. So Particularly as the pole comes aft, this downward force starts to minimize

 

Similarly as the pole goes forward, you want the guy to pull "to weather" not just aft, so you want it to lead from the widest part of the boat.

 

 

So on bigger boats where you need to do a "dip pole", you run TWO lines to each Spinnaker clew - the sheet that runs all the way aft, and the Guy that rons to a block midships (widest point). But this is a lot of extra weight and another line and and and.

 

Wouldn't it be simpler to simply run on line to each spin clew. a line that can double as the Sheet AND the guy?

 

 

The gothca is that for it to be effective as a sheet, it needs to run as straight forward from aft as it can - which kinda makes it useless when the pole is way forward since it will exert almost no latteral force to keep the pole off the forestay, And similarly when the pole is all the way squre, the amount of "down force" it will contribute is low.

 

OTOH, if you just use a block at the widest point (ie the guy) it works great on the pole side, but because the block is so far forward, it tends to choke the kite inwards whenever you are above DDW.

 

 

So how to make this work?? TWINDS... A twing is a floating block on the line that runs slack and floats on the line whne it is being used as a sheet, but gets cinched tight to the widest point of the hull when it is being used as a guy. That way the one line can be used as both the sheet and the guy and optimized for BOTH.

 

 

Dos this help?

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here is a picture of a twing in action twing on a soling . (linked not included for copyright reasons :) )

 

you can see the spinnaker guy coming down at a sharp angle to the deck around midships on the boat, that is because the twing is ON hard, the twing adjusts the angle the spinnaker sheet/guy comes off the sail,

if the twing is off, then sheet comes from the very back of the boat.

 

as noted above it allow you to use the same line for sheet and guy, and still keep control of the pole when the pole is forward.

 

The other job they are for is to hold the corners of the kite down in higher winds, to keep the kite under control, and help you to keep the boat on her feet :)

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harken is a good resource for this kind of stuff.

STANDARD SHEETS

Masthead rigs to 28 ft (8.5 m) and fractional rigs to 32 ft (9.7 m) use one pair of lines which lead to turning blocks at the transom. Tweakers bring the guy to the deck near the point of maximum beam to provide additional control over the spinnaker pole. One foreguy line is appropriate for these boats.

 

Interesting that Harken is using a twing for both the sheet and for the guy. I've never seen a twing used for a guy. You'd need hella purchase for anything requiring sheets+guys. Also, Harken doesn't show twings at all for the Standard Sheets and Guys layout.

 

[Edit] Ok, I don't sail on small boats much and yeah, now I remember twinging down on both before a gybe. But I still wonder why no twings on the layout for bigger boats.

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harken is a good resource for this kind of stuff.

STANDARD SHEETS

Masthead rigs to 28 ft (8.5 m) and fractional rigs to 32 ft (9.7 m) use one pair of lines which lead to turning blocks at the transom. Tweakers bring the guy to the deck near the point of maximum beam to provide additional control over the spinnaker pole. One foreguy line is appropriate for these boats.

 

Interesting that Harken is using a twing for both the sheet and for the guy. I've never seen a twing used for a guy. You'd need hella purchase for anything requiring sheets+guys. Also, Harken doesn't show twings at all for the Standard Sheets and Guys layout.

 

[Edit] Ok, I don't sail on small boats much and yeah, now I remember twinging down on both before a gybe. But I still wonder why no twings on the layout for bigger boats.

 

Can't do a dip-pole without a lazy guy.

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Shite... Looks like I'm still missing some hardware. I don't think I have a downfucker. The spinnaker bag is kind of heavy for what should be in it. I'll bet there's some goodies in there with the sail. Thanks for the diagrams, I get it. So twings have got to be pretty non-stretchy. I like the ferrules in Merit's photo, probably less chafy than rings.

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We use twings on our 30 footer. singe line, no added purchase. They work exactly as discussed many times above. We end-for-end our pole for what it's worth. All that being said, here's a nifty little trick we've added to our twing lines:

 

At the end of each of our twing lines where the block (or nifty ring thing shown a few posts before me) is located, we've also tied a lightweight Nicro-Fico (sp?) plastic snap shackle. It doesn't add any real weight to the twing line when it is being used as a spinnaker twing - AND it allows our twing lines to also be used as clip-on barber-haulers when we sail jib & main and are trying to tweak the genoa down a bit on a broad reach. The twing lines are led, cleated and used exactly the same way in either scenario. One set of lines with two handy uses!

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Can't do a dip-pole without a lazy guy.

Tricky but not impossible with "short" poles running. Requires good coordination fordeck/helm + trimmers.

We often used a variation with masthead kites/oversize pole on a 38 footer with only single sheets/guy where we would release the brace, realease the mast end of the oversize pole, swing it to the other side past the forestay then attach to new brace, push out and reattache to mast.

Very fast gybing in moderate breezes with well coordinated crew.

Not really for reach to reach gybe unless you can go DDW for abit

Gets real messy real quick if boat is not kept under spin, new brace pulled on to much before pole back on mast etc

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Image isn't working, just scroll down to post #6

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/77915-j-29-spinnaker-setup.html

 

I can stop by next week and lay something out for ya for twings. I have a bridle and a downhaul for the pole on my boat, and I also have twings. However the bit that attaches to the sheet is just a snap shackle. My boat is small enough that I don't need a block, and if it goes light, just pop the shackle off.

 

The turning blocks at the toe rail are Ti-lites from harken. Easy to lash to the toe rail, or in your case, a pad eye.

 

Make a bridle, route downfucker

Make some twings (pick your end fitting, snatch block, shackle, ferrule, whatever)

Make some sheets, one pair.

Go have fun.

 

image-full.png

 

While the ring ferules shown above are sweet in some applications (outhaul, vang), some itty bitty snatch blocks will save your bacon when guest crew (or the owner) puts the tweaker on the wrong side of the stanchion or lifelines. Not that I would know anything about that.

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We're using these ferrules on our 33-footer for twings. They are great, lighter than any block and very low friction.

And they've never shown up on the wrong side of lifelines or stanchions... :)

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So twings have got to be pretty non-stretchy.

 

Not really. A standard 6 mm trim line is more than enough.

 

Not all boats need twings, but they do help. When the pole is close to forestay, you may need twings to protect the stanchions. When the pole is squared, you may need twings to hold it steady, but quite often pole downhaul is enough for that. And they help in jibes.

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So twings have got to be pretty non-stretchy.

 

Not really. A standard 6 mm trim line is more than enough.

 

Not all boats need twings, but they do help. When the pole is close to forestay, you may need twings to protect the stanchions. When the pole is squared, you may need twings to hold it steady, but quite often pole downhaul is enough for that. And they help in jibes.

 

 

Yup, that's true for sure.

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harken is a good resource for this kind of stuff.

STANDARD SHEETS

Masthead rigs to 28 ft (8.5 m) and fractional rigs to 32 ft (9.7 m) use one pair of lines which lead to turning blocks at the transom. Tweakers bring the guy to the deck near the point of maximum beam to provide additional control over the spinnaker pole. One foreguy line is appropriate for these boats.

 

Interesting that Harken is using a twing for both the sheet and for the guy. I've never seen a twing used for a guy. You'd need hella purchase for anything requiring sheets+guys. Also, Harken doesn't show twings at all for the Standard Sheets and Guys layout.

 

[Edit] Ok, I don't sail on small boats much and yeah, now I remember twinging down on both before a gybe. But I still wonder why no twings on the layout for bigger boats.

 

 

Thats cause when you gybe the old sheet becomes the new guy and vise a versa.

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harken is a good resource for this kind of stuff.

STANDARD SHEETS

Masthead rigs to 28 ft (8.5 m) and fractional rigs to 32 ft (9.7 m) use one pair of lines which lead to turning blocks at the transom. Tweakers bring the guy to the deck near the point of maximum beam to provide additional control over the spinnaker pole. One foreguy line is appropriate for these boats.

 

Interesting that Harken is using a twing for both the sheet and for the guy. I've never seen a twing used for a guy. You'd need hella purchase for anything requiring sheets+guys. Also, Harken doesn't show twings at all for the Standard Sheets and Guys layout.

 

[Edit] Ok, I don't sail on small boats much and yeah, now I remember twinging down on both before a gybe. But I still wonder why no twings on the layout for bigger boats.

 

Seriously? The Harken set-up has twings/tweakers for two reasons:

  1. When the line is a sheet: To adjust the sheeting angle (if desired/required); and
  2. When the (same) line is a brace/guy (on the other board): To move the brace/guy point forward (cannot properly adjust the pole from the kite sheeting point, as explained by several people in this thread already).

In the big boat set-up on the Harken site (separate sheets and braces/guys), the sheets still have twings/tweakers (same reason as 1. above) but the braces/guys obviously do not need any, as they already in the correct spot (more or less at B max).

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If you want a good example - go to the Farr 30 website n check out the deck lines - the twings are direct acting (no purchase) to simply get the guy lower and nearer Bmax and as mentioned before get the sheet slightly restrained away from the boom end / tighten the leach on A sails.

 

And of course they end for end pole - lazy lines = dip pole for bigger boats with headbangingly heavy poles & a kite that's too broad to reach across without trotting around the foredeck weilding a fkn great tube whilst the guys at the back try and keep a boat under a lose kite.

 

My quarter tonner runs twings (I call them tweakers - dunno why), single lines, end for end pole - single handed it's easy to gybe when you strap both clews down to the deck just aft of the shrouds - all the rag is going nowhere and is too tight in the foot & leaches tto allow a wrap (singlehanders second worse nightmare to going over the side..)

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harken is a good resource for this kind of stuff.

 

Thanks for the pic, Clean. That helps a lot.

 

The sheets in that diagram are not what I envisioned though. They go all the way back to turning blocks on the stern, much like sheets for an asymm would. On the ride I normally crew for, we cross-sheet to cabin top winches, through toe rail blocks that are aft of the guy blocks.

 

In the Harken diagram, I guess I could follow their example, and run the sheets forward to the primaries from turning blocks mounted on the stern corners. Hmm...maybe this was how it was done on my boat by the PO's, because there are shackles mounted on pads on the aft cockpit corners, just like in the diagram but there are no blocks there now, so I didn't know what they were for.

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Ajax,

 

On your regular ride, the blocks for the sheets are much further back than the blocks for the guys. No, the sheet blocks aren't all the way to the stern, but they probably don't need to be since the angles work where they are. Plus, without some turning blocks they'd be in the way of the whole cockpit.

 

on your boat, and mine, get the sheet blocks as far back as you can. The twing acts just like the forward guy block on your usual ride (but adjustable) so it needs to be "set" for the next gybe for the new guy and released for the new sheet. A couple more steps for the crew, but there are less long lines to play with otherwise.

 

For a downfucker, ours goes to the base of the mast instead of pad eyes on deck. Thay may be how yours was set up too.

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Ajax,

 

On your regular ride, the blocks for the sheets are much further back than the blocks for the guys. No, the sheet blocks aren't all the way to the stern, but they probably don't need to be since the angles work where they are. Plus, without some turning blocks they'd be in the way of the whole cockpit.

 

on your boat, and mine, get the sheet blocks as far back as you can. The twing acts just like the forward guy block on your usual ride (but adjustable) so it needs to be "set" for the next gybe for the new guy and released for the new sheet. A couple more steps for the crew, but there are less long lines to play with otherwise.

 

For a downfucker, ours goes to the base of the mast instead of pad eyes on deck. Thay may be how yours was set up too.

 

Ah, excellent. I'll check this out. I feel pretty close to a good design and solution for the boat now.

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Interesting that Harken is using a twing for both the sheet and for the guy. I've never seen a twing used for a guy. You'd need hella purchase for anything requiring sheets+guys. Also, Harken doesn't show twings at all for the Standard Sheets and Guys layout.

 

Thats cause when you gybe the old sheet becomes the new guy and vise a versa.

I know that but what Harken was saying was:

 

Tweakers
bring
the guy
to the deck
near the point of maximum beam to provide additional control over the spinnaker pole.

This means that they are using the twing on the guy. I've never seen a twing used on the guy and you'd need hella purchase to deflect a guy on a big boat.

[Edit] Ok, I kind of get Harken's point about bringing the guy down to Bmax. This is for the Standard Sheets layout and not for Standard Sheets and Guys. So since the sheet runs back to the pushpit and turns it'd be nice to have the guy cinched down to Bmax.

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Interesting that Harken is using a twing for both the sheet and for the guy. I've never seen a twing used for a guy. You'd need hella purchase for anything requiring sheets+guys. Also, Harken doesn't show twings at all for the Standard Sheets and Guys layout.

 

Thats cause when you gybe the old sheet becomes the new guy and vise a versa.

I know that but what Harken was saying was:

 

Tweakers
bring
the guy
to the deck
near the point of maximum beam to provide additional control over the spinnaker pole.

This means that they are using the twing on the guy. I've never seen a twing used on the guy and you'd need hella purchase to deflect a guy on a big boat.

but we're talking about a p-30. it isn't a big boat. yes, you want twings on a single sheet per clew setup. the twing will always be on and pulled tight on the windward line attached to the clew. this line is acting as a guy. I've never seen a boat need more than 2:1 purchase on a guy, and those times are rare.

 

to the comment about dipping without dedicated guys, yes it is possible. I've done it. my family's 1978 C&C 26 was set up this way when I was a kid. it is a pain for the foredeck crew, especially without twings, but can be done if you know what you're doing and have a semi-competent driver. rigging a bridle and downhaul is pretty easy and cheap and makes everyone's lives much easier. on your boat, put the downhaul padeye in the center of the foredeck.to find the proper position, put up your pole perpendicular to the mast and against the forestay. then drop a plumb bob from the downhaul bridle. put the padeye on center below the bob.

 

an alternative to twings that was also used in the good old days was to put a snatch block on a padeye or toerail at max beam. then, before the gybe, the foredeck crew would simply grab the line acting as the sheet and put it in the snatch block. this is similar to using a guy hook on dinghys. there are obvious disadvantages to this, but advantages include: no additional weight on the sheet when it is not needed or in light air, also no additional rigging needed.

 

finally, you'll want to lead your sheets all the way to the back corner of your boat. do yourself a favor and put a standard harken hexaratchet (with a switch, not auto) block back there. in light to medium winds, you can trim directly from the block and get much better feel without losing effort through the trimmer's arms. then when it loads up, you can go to the winch. the guy will always be on the winch.

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Ajax,

 

On your regular ride, the blocks for the sheets are much further back than the blocks for the guys. No, the sheet blocks aren't all the way to the stern, but they probably don't need to be since the angles work where they are. Plus, without some turning blocks they'd be in the way of the whole cockpit.

 

on your boat, and mine, get the sheet blocks as far back as you can. The twing acts just like the forward guy block on your usual ride (but adjustable) so it needs to be "set" for the next gybe for the new guy and released for the new sheet. A couple more steps for the crew, but there are less long lines to play with otherwise.

 

For a downfucker, ours goes to the base of the mast instead of pad eyes on deck. Thay may be how yours was set up too.

 

Ah, excellent. I'll check this out. I feel pretty close to a good design and solution for the boat now.

 

The advantage to running the downfucker (kicker in the antipodes I believe) to the base of the mast is that you can crank it on after the gybe and leave it until it is time to gybe again - because the pivot of the downfucker is the pivot of the pole and so they move in synch

 

OTOH you have a bit less DOWN with that. If you use a padeye further fwd, you get more "down" but you also have to ease or trim in the downfucker every time you adjust the pole position.

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Ajax,

 

On your regular ride, the blocks for the sheets are much further back than the blocks for the guys. No, the sheet blocks aren't all the way to the stern, but they probably don't need to be since the angles work where they are. Plus, without some turning blocks they'd be in the way of the whole cockpit.

 

on your boat, and mine, get the sheet blocks as far back as you can. The twing acts just like the forward guy block on your usual ride (but adjustable) so it needs to be "set" for the next gybe for the new guy and released for the new sheet. A couple more steps for the crew, but there are less long lines to play with otherwise.

 

For a downfucker, ours goes to the base of the mast instead of pad eyes on deck. Thay may be how yours was set up too.

 

Ah, excellent. I'll check this out. I feel pretty close to a good design and solution for the boat now.

 

Works really well on smaller boats. On your 30' er you may need to go 2:1 on the foreguy (down f'er)

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the base of the mast thing works well on smaller boats for a few reasons. I recommend the middle of the foredeck position for the p-30. rationale is as follows:

 

1. you are going to require a substantial down force component, especially when reaching. the most efficient place for this is the middle of the foredeck. as you bring the lead back, you're adding a more or less useless additional compressive load to the inboard pole end at the expense of down force. you're further reducing the effectiveness of the downhaul by placing it behind your hatch on the coach roof, which is an elevated surface. decent hardware and a 2:1 purchase will provide the appropriate tension needed, but I would be more worried about the fiberglass into which you're installing the padeye. the hardware would be under less total load with a foredeck padeye and appropriate backing plate or 1/4" fender washers.

 

2. that additional compressive force for the p-30 may make it difficult for your foredeck crew to release and make the pole during a gybe. this can already be difficult with just the force from the new guy.

 

3. boats that use the base of the mast position tend to be smaller, so the overall loads are smaller. also the angles tend to be a bit better such that the twinged-down guy provides a substantial fraction of the necessary down force, reducing the need for downhaul tension. indeed, on some boats, they will not even connect the down haul below 15 kts. the angles are not appropriate for doing this with the p-30.

 

4. don't worry about the foredeck crew getting tripped up on the downhaul line, nor what to do with the genoa sheets. if you've got someone up there with half a brain cell, they'll figure it out pretty quickly. this is common stuff for the foredeck playbook. you just sit in the back, hold your stick, and watch the magic happen.

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No need for a 2:1 on the down fucker or the twings. It's a 30'er.

[/quote

 

Ajax, you can split the downf)(^'er and bring it back to both sides of the cockpit. It'll be 2:1 which isn't all that big a deal, but you'll like this very much when things get reachy.

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Nuts has this right for your boat. When beam reaching in any decent wind, you will need some purchase on the downhaul/foreguy. The easiest would be a tackle, led back on deck through bullseyes to a cleat mounted on the aft side of the coach house. The useful aspect to a tackle is that you can double end it easily and have it led back to each side of the coach house. That will make trimming the guy easier because on either gybe, the foreguy is close to the guy on the windward primary winch.

 

The twings won't need a purchase and can be led straight back to a cleat on your coaming.

 

Your Pearson 30 is a displacement boat and relatively heavy. That means in heavier air, the spinnaker gear will load up more than a light displacement 30 footer. Don't under estimate it. There's also nothing sacred about only using single sheet/guy just because it's 30ft as some in here seem to suggest. You won't lose the man card using double sheets and guys !! Farr 30's end-for-end using double sheets and guys. It's a whole lot easier to setup for, and execute the gybe with an unloaded guy in heavier air, in control with no fusterclucks. There's no reason why you can't rig a double sheet/guy system and just use single sheets if it's too light to fly the chute with the extra weight of the guy. Double sheets and guys also don't preclude you also using twings on the sheets. They would still be used when flying the chute through the gybe on the sheets to help stabilize the chute, while the guys are unloaded and being swapped on the pole. The twings would still be used to control the chute's twist and/or twing in to give the mainsail boom freedom to be eased as in this pic:

post-5483-012428000 1316199394_thumb.jpg

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Nuts has this right for your boat. When beam reaching in any decent wind, you will need some purchase on the downhaul/foreguy. The easiest would be a tackle, led back on deck through bullseyes to a cleat mounted on the aft side of the coach house. The useful aspect to a tackle is that you can double end it easily and have it led back to each side of the coach house. That will make trimming the guy easier because on either gybe, the foreguy is close to the guy on the windward primary winch.

 

The twings won't need a purchase and can be led straight back to a cleat on your coaming.

 

Your Pearson 30 is a displacement boat and relatively heavy. That means in heavier air, the spinnaker gear will load up more than a light displacement 30 footer. Don't under estimate it. There's also nothing sacred about only using single sheet/guy just because it's 30ft as some in here seem to suggest. You won't lose the man card using double sheets and guys !! Farr 30's end-for-end using double sheets and guys. It's a whole lot easier to setup for, and execute the gybe with an unloaded guy in heavier air, in control with no fusterclucks. There's no reason why you can't rig a double sheet/guy system and just use single sheets if it's too light to fly the chute with the extra weight of the guy. Double sheets and guys also don't preclude you also using twings on the sheets. They would still be used when flying the chute through the gybe on the sheets to help stabilize the chute, while the guys are unloaded and being swapped on the pole. The twings would still be used to control the chute's twist and/or twing in to give the mainsail boom freedom to be eased as in this pic:

post-5483-012428000 1316199394_thumb.jpg

 

WHL

 

I'm with you but Ajax is a newbie to all this. If it's a big enough day to need double doubles, he probably will be as fast with a poled out headsail. An IACC spin won't make that boat break free. I'd recommend singles with twings and sail it a lot before considering adding the extra spaghetti. He can always do that if he decides he needs it.

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Ajax, you can split the downf)(^'er and bring it back to both sides of the cockpit. It'll be 2:1 which isn't all that big a deal, but you'll like this very much when things get reachy.

 

And if you lead it right, the person working the guy can reach the pole downhaul too. From either side.

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WHL

 

I'm with you but Ajax is a newbie to all this. If it's a big enough day to need double doubles, he probably will be as fast with a poled out headsail. An IACC spin won't make that boat break free. I'd recommend singles with twings and sail it a lot before considering adding the extra spaghetti. He can always do that if he decides he needs it.

 

Yes. biggrin.gif

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Nuts has this right for your boat. When beam reaching in any decent wind, you will need some purchase on the downhaul/foreguy. The easiest would be a tackle, led back on deck through bullseyes to a cleat mounted on the aft side of the coach house. The useful aspect to a tackle is that you can double end it easily and have it led back to each side of the coach house. That will make trimming the guy easier because on either gybe, the foreguy is close to the guy on the windward primary winch.

 

The twings won't need a purchase and can be led straight back to a cleat on your coaming.

 

Your Pearson 30 is a displacement boat and relatively heavy. That means in heavier air, the spinnaker gear will load up more than a light displacement 30 footer. Don't under estimate it. There's also nothing sacred about only using single sheet/guy just because it's 30ft as some in here seem to suggest. You won't lose the man card using double sheets and guys !! Farr 30's end-for-end using double sheets and guys. It's a whole lot easier to setup for, and execute the gybe with an unloaded guy in heavier air, in control with no fusterclucks. There's no reason why you can't rig a double sheet/guy system and just use single sheets if it's too light to fly the chute with the extra weight of the guy. Double sheets and guys also don't preclude you also using twings on the sheets. They would still be used when flying the chute through the gybe on the sheets to help stabilize the chute, while the guys are unloaded and being swapped on the pole. The twings would still be used to control the chute's twist and/or twing in to give the mainsail boom freedom to be eased as in this pic:

post-5483-012428000 1316199394_thumb.jpg

 

+1

 

It's really nice to have both. Can choke down the chute with the twings while jibing in heavy air to help keep the chute centered in front of the boat and assure a "made" pole. Can remove the guys in light air too.

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Nuts has this right for your boat. When beam reaching in any decent wind, you will need some purchase on the downhaul/foreguy. The easiest would be a tackle, led back on deck through bullseyes to a cleat mounted on the aft side of the coach house. The useful aspect to a tackle is that you can double end it easily and have it led back to each side of the coach house. That will make trimming the guy easier because on either gybe, the foreguy is close to the guy on the windward primary winch.

 

The twings won't need a purchase and can be led straight back to a cleat on your coaming.

 

Your Pearson 30 is a displacement boat and relatively heavy. That means in heavier air, the spinnaker gear will load up more than a light displacement 30 footer. Don't under estimate it. There's also nothing sacred about only using single sheet/guy just because it's 30ft as some in here seem to suggest. You won't lose the man card using double sheets and guys !! Farr 30's end-for-end using double sheets and guys. It's a whole lot easier to setup for, and execute the gybe with an unloaded guy in heavier air, in control with no fusterclucks. There's no reason why you can't rig a double sheet/guy system and just use single sheets if it's too light to fly the chute with the extra weight of the guy. Double sheets and guys also don't preclude you also using twings on the sheets. They would still be used when flying the chute through the gybe on the sheets to help stabilize the chute, while the guys are unloaded and being swapped on the pole. The twings would still be used to control the chute's twist and/or twing in to give the mainsail boom freedom to be eased as in this pic:

post-5483-012428000 1316199394_thumb.jpg

 

+1

 

It's really nice to have both. Can choke down the chute with the twings while jibing in heavy air to help keep the chute centered in front of the boat and assure a "made" pole. Can remove the guys in light air too.

 

Guys suck. More string to go wrong, more expense, more lines to drag in the water. I've been on board J35s that end-for-end. One of the reasons older 30' designs used sheets and braces/guys was that the kites of that era were much less stable as a result of the measurement rule used, And also had narrower wind ranges and hence required "peels" fairly often. And peels ARE easier to do with braces and sheets because the braces give you something with which to pull in the kite being peeled without affecting the new kite.

 

But unless you have a dippole on your 30'er you don't bother with guys

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Nuts has this right for your boat. When beam reaching in any decent wind, you will need some purchase on the downhaul/foreguy. The easiest would be a tackle, led back on deck through bullseyes to a cleat mounted on the aft side of the coach house. The useful aspect to a tackle is that you can double end it easily and have it led back to each side of the coach house. That will make trimming the guy easier because on either gybe, the foreguy is close to the guy on the windward primary winch.

 

The twings won't need a purchase and can be led straight back to a cleat on your coaming.

 

Your Pearson 30 is a displacement boat and relatively heavy. That means in heavier air, the spinnaker gear will load up more than a light displacement 30 footer. Don't under estimate it. There's also nothing sacred about only using single sheet/guy just because it's 30ft as some in here seem to suggest. You won't lose the man card using double sheets and guys !! Farr 30's end-for-end using double sheets and guys. It's a whole lot easier to setup for, and execute the gybe with an unloaded guy in heavier air, in control with no fusterclucks. There's no reason why you can't rig a double sheet/guy system and just use single sheets if it's too light to fly the chute with the extra weight of the guy. Double sheets and guys also don't preclude you also using twings on the sheets. They would still be used when flying the chute through the gybe on the sheets to help stabilize the chute, while the guys are unloaded and being swapped on the pole. The twings would still be used to control the chute's twist and/or twing in to give the mainsail boom freedom to be eased as in this pic:

post-5483-012428000 1316199394_thumb.jpg

 

+1

 

It's really nice to have both. Can choke down the chute with the twings while jibing in heavy air to help keep the chute centered in front of the boat and assure a "made" pole. Can remove the guys in light air too.

 

Guys suck. More string to go wrong, more expense, more lines to drag in the water. I've been on board J35s that end-for-end. One of the reasons older 30' designs used sheets and braces/guys was that the kites of that era were much less stable as a result of the measurement rule used, And also had narrower wind ranges and hence required "peels" fairly often. And peels ARE easier to do with braces and sheets because the braces give you something with which to pull in the kite being peeled without affecting the new kite.

 

But unless you have a dippole on your 30'er you don't bother with guys

Bollocks

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the p-30 cockpit is pretty tiny. it's got enough strings all over the place as it is without needing to worry about another 45' of guy. stick with one line per side and you'll do just fine. if you don't feel like screwing around too much just put some snatch blocks on the rail.

 

the double ended downhaul is nice to have, but completely unnecessary.

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Ajax,

 

The Friction eyes are great for tweakers/twings. The problem is you are locked in with a 1:1 purchase. You would need a 2:1 system on the deck, and that's just another thing to stand on.

 

I like to use these blocks (Click Linky Thing)

 

A 2:1 setup is easy with these and if you do a Spinnaker peel you can "unclip" the Twin/tweaker and snap it onto the new Brace/sheet. Also you can unclip the tweaker/twing off the sheet in light airs to stop the extra weight hanging on the clew when pole forward, VMG running.

 

Cheers

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Nuts has this right for your boat. When beam reaching in any decent wind, you will need some purchase on the downhaul/foreguy. The easiest would be a tackle, led back on deck through bullseyes to a cleat mounted on the aft side of the coach house. The useful aspect to a tackle is that you can double end it easily and have it led back to each side of the coach house. That will make trimming the guy easier because on either gybe, the foreguy is close to the guy on the windward primary winch.

 

The twings won't need a purchase and can be led straight back to a cleat on your coaming.

 

Your Pearson 30 is a displacement boat and relatively heavy. That means in heavier air, the spinnaker gear will load up more than a light displacement 30 footer. Don't under estimate it. There's also nothing sacred about only using single sheet/guy just because it's 30ft as some in here seem to suggest. You won't lose the man card using double sheets and guys !! Farr 30's end-for-end using double sheets and guys. It's a whole lot easier to setup for, and execute the gybe with an unloaded guy in heavier air, in control with no fusterclucks. There's no reason why you can't rig a double sheet/guy system and just use single sheets if it's too light to fly the chute with the extra weight of the guy. Double sheets and guys also don't preclude you also using twings on the sheets. They would still be used when flying the chute through the gybe on the sheets to help stabilize the chute, while the guys are unloaded and being swapped on the pole. The twings would still be used to control the chute's twist and/or twing in to give the mainsail boom freedom to be eased as in this pic:

post-5483-012428000 1316199394_thumb.jpg

 

+1

 

It's really nice to have both. Can choke down the chute with the twings while jibing in heavy air to help keep the chute centered in front of the boat and assure a "made" pole. Can remove the guys in light air too.

 

Guys suck. More string to go wrong, more expense, more lines to drag in the water. I've been on board J35s that end-for-end. One of the reasons older 30' designs used sheets and braces/guys was that the kites of that era were much less stable as a result of the measurement rule used, And also had narrower wind ranges and hence required "peels" fairly often. And peels ARE easier to do with braces and sheets because the braces give you something with which to pull in the kite being peeled without affecting the new kite.

 

But unless you have a dippole on your 30'er you don't bother with guys

Bollocks

 

Agreed, especially if it's windy beyond the skill range of the crew. With both guy and sheet you can make a mistake in the timing and still complete an end for end gybe.

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Ajax,

 

The Friction eyes are great for tweakers/twings. The problem is you are locked in with a 1:1 purchase. You would need a 2:1 system on the deck, and that's just another thing to stand on.

 

I like to use these blocks (Click Linky Thing)

 

A 2:1 setup is easy with these and if you do a Spinnaker peel you can "unclip" the Twin/tweaker and snap it onto the new Brace/sheet. Also you can unclip the tweaker/twing off the sheet in light airs to stop the extra weight hanging on the clew when pole forward, VMG running.

 

Cheers

 

Those are my favorite. You can unclip them in the light stuff to take weight off the sheet. Closed blocks, rings, etc, need to be rigged when you set up and stay their unless you unreeve the line.

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What are peoples thoughts for using twings on an assy kite and sprits?

 

if your turning blocks are in the right place they are useless.. though the ability to add them should the sails stretch or are in need of them for some unfortunate reason is a bonus. not to mention the usefulness of being able to turn them to barberhaulers for close reaching conditions where the track positions aren't quite wide enough

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What are peoples thoughts for using twings on an assy kite and sprits?

 

if your turning blocks are in the right place they are useless.. though the ability to add them should the sails stretch or are in need of them for some unfortunate reason is a bonus. not to mention the usefulness of being able to turn them to barberhaulers for close reaching conditions where the track positions aren't quite wide enough

 

I would suggest to you that the ability to move the lead forward under certain conditions for the kite could improve performance. It is something we are currently playing with on my FT10M.

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What are peoples thoughts for using twings on an assy kite and sprits?

 

if your turning blocks are in the right place they are useless.. though the ability to add them should the sails stretch or are in need of them for some unfortunate reason is a bonus. not to mention the usefulness of being able to turn them to barberhaulers for close reaching conditions where the track positions aren't quite wide enough

 

I would suggest to you that the ability to move the lead forward under certain conditions for the kite could improve performance. It is something we are currently playing with on my FT10M.

 

well certainly the ability to move your leads forward or better yet move them outboard could improve your performance. though a tweaker/twing in a typical spot is midship would probably choke your spin well before it gives you any advantage

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What are peoples thoughts for using twings on an assy kite and sprits?

 

if your turning blocks are in the right place they are useless.. though the ability to add them should the sails stretch or are in need of them for some unfortunate reason is a bonus. not to mention the usefulness of being able to turn them to barberhaulers for close reaching conditions where the track positions aren't quite wide enough

 

Sheesh where do people get these kinds of ideas !!!

twings/tweakers on asymm sheets do the same things as twings on the sheets of a symmetrical.

1. they change the twist on the chute depending on wind angle e.g. off when close reaching and on as needed when sailing deeper.

2. they provide some relief to ease the boom in conditions when you need to.

 

I'll post this pic again for you. It's a J120 broad reaching and surfing in 25 + knots a couple of hundred miles off the California coast. Clearly twings have value on asymm boats. In this pic, there's a heavy bungee on it too to absorb shock loads on the chute.

post-5483-039230700 1316307651_thumb.jpg.

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What are peoples thoughts for using twings on an assy kite and sprits?

 

if your turning blocks are in the right place they are useless.. though the ability to add them should the sails stretch or are in need of them for some unfortunate reason is a bonus. not to mention the usefulness of being able to turn them to barberhaulers for close reaching conditions where the track positions aren't quite wide enough

 

Sheesh where do people get these kinds of ideas !!!

twings/tweakers on asymm sheets do the same things as twings on the sheets of a symmetrical.

1. they change the twist on the chute depending on wind angle e.g. off when close reaching and on as needed when sailing deeper.

2. they provide some relief to ease the boom in conditions when you need to.

 

I'll post this pic again for you. It's a J120 broad reaching and surfing in 25 + knots a couple of hundred miles off the California coast. Clearly twings have value on asymm boats. In this pic, there's a heavy bungee on it too to absorb shock loads on the chute.

post-5483-039230700 1316307651_thumb.jpg.

 

Agree in principle, but in practice the value of tweakers/twings on an asym is pretty limited other than keeping the kite sheet away from the boom.

 

Commandment No. 4: Thou shall use your twings only if you [absolutely] must. (Source)

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Guys suck. More string to go wrong, more expense, more lines to drag in the water. I've been on board J35s that end-for-end.

 

 

That's the way we did it. The only thing to remember is along with the foreguy ease the 'old' twing or your cannot rotate the pole back far enough before releasing it for the end-for-end. No need for a 2:1 purchase on the twings either.

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You don't twing the guys on boats over about 28-35 feet. You use a reaching strut or separate guys led to where they would be twinged on a smaller boat.

 

Hot Allen makes several sizes of these light snatch-blocks. I've used them on B25 and SC27.

 

13962.jpg

 

deck_plan_1242x707.jpg

 

Usually in place but not attached to sheet/guy until needed -- certainly not on in light air when their weight would be detrimental. Usually 1:1 (no purchase).

______________________

 

On even smaller boats (Santana 20, dinghies) a simple guy hook is all you need.

 

91120.jpg

______________________

 

Twings are also used on spinn sheets to position and/or steady the clew. Any size boat.

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I used these little gems on the twings on my J30 years ago.

13962.jpg

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I'm still reading this. Lots of great ideas, thanks for all the diagrams and examples of hardware. I also have a better idea of the purpose of twings, when to employ them and whether or not to use separate guys.

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You don't twing the guys on boats over about 28-35 feet. You use a reaching strut or separate guys led to where they would be twinged on a smaller boat.

 

Hot Allen makes several sizes of these light snatch-blocks. I've used them on B25 and SC27.

 

 

 

 

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a reaching strut?

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I used these little gems on the twings on my J30 years ago.

13962.jpg

 

Ajax, we use these on the Tartan 3000..."works a treat", as they say. clip on, clip off in the real light stuff on the sheet side.

 

Another cheap & easy thing could be a simple stainless caribiener.. ..how the fuck do you spell that? :huh: - that is how we do it on the Farr 30.

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I'm still reading this. Lots of great ideas, thanks for all the diagrams and examples of hardware. I also have a better idea of the purpose of twings, when to employ them and whether or not to use separate guys.

 

 

Ajax, the holt snatch blocks work very well. We use them on our 34' boat. I'd also consider using a small carabiner to the same effect. I don't think I've ever seen a 30' rigged with both sheets and guys. It's way overkill. The twings will largely negate the need on a smaller boat for heavier air gybes. Keep it simple and light. The loads aren't that large in the big scheme of things. If you ever come across a screaming deal on a carbon pole, buy it. Put it on the boom dingy style when it's not in use.

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Our former boat was a 3/4 ton Frac rig with fauirly wide beam and outward slanted stanchons. We didn't need no stinkin double sheets/ guys and ran the single sheets INSIDE the lifelines. The guy is always much more heavly loaded than the sheet when close reaching, so having it inside the lifelines kept it off of them and loaded straight. We had husky snatch blocks at max beam point and would drop the new guy into one while heavy air jibing as that kept things under control while we end for ended the pole.

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Yep, we use them on Akoni and also used them on Lobster. They work very well....easy on, easy off, and inexpensive for whatthey do. Also, pretty light.

APS has them!

 

I used these little gems on the twings on my J30 years ago.

13962.jpg

 

Ajax, we use these on the Tartan 3000..."works a treat", as they say. clip on, clip off in the real light stuff on the sheet side.

 

Another cheap & easy thing could be a simple stainless caribiener.. ..how the fuck do you spell that? :huh: - that is how we do it on the Farr 30.

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Merit - that picture is wrong...there's no "downfucker". :P

 

There's a "downfucker". Its just mislabeled as a "fore guy". But worse, there's no "up-fucker".

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Guys suck. More string to go wrong, more expense, more lines to drag in the water. I've been on board J35s that end-for-end.

 

 

That's the way we did it. The only thing to remember is along with the foreguy ease the 'old' twing or your cannot rotate the pole back far enough before releasing it for the end-for-end. No need for a 2:1 purchase on the twings either.

 

Baltic:

 

We end for end with a 17' pole that's three feet longer than the J measurement. So, in breeze, guys don't suck. We've got twings for the sheets for light air. But in the 25' - 35'range, guys are usually unnecessary, if your bow and trimmers are on speaking terms.

 

Those Holt blocks can do with a little grinding to round off the corners so they don't hang up on the lifelines and are more comfortable to sit on.

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Thanks to all for the help. This is one of the great benefits of this group.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've almost got a mental picture of the way you say twings work, and connect but not quite. A photo or sketch would be worth a thousand words.

 

Good stuff tho, keep it coming.

 

You asked this at the top and no one answered so let me try, but I don't have drawing.

 

Imagine setting your spinnaker pole up but without the spinnaker.

 

What is it that keeps the pole "stable?

 

essentially it is a triangle of three lines:

  1. Topping lift pulls up and in
  2. Foreguy pulls forward and down and in
  3. Guy pulls aft and down and in.

 

now in the case of the spinnaker sheet - the load on the sheet is MAINLY FORWARD, and you don't want much in the way of downforce at all, so you run it as aft as possible.

 

Wheras with the guy you WANT the downward force so as to counteract the lifting energy of the kite, you have some of that downward force in the foreguy, but this also has a bit of a forward component. So Particularly as the pole comes aft, this downward force starts to minimize

 

Similarly as the pole goes forward, you want the guy to pull "to weather" not just aft, so you want it to lead from the widest part of the boat.

 

 

So on bigger boats where you need to do a "dip pole", you run TWO lines to each Spinnaker clew - the sheet that runs all the way aft, and the Guy that rons to a block midships (widest point). But this is a lot of extra weight and another line and and and.

 

Wouldn't it be simpler to simply run on line to each spin clew. a line that can double as the Sheet AND the guy?

 

 

The gothca is that for it to be effective as a sheet, it needs to run as straight forward from aft as it can - which kinda makes it useless when the pole is way forward since it will exert almost no latteral force to keep the pole off the forestay, And similarly when the pole is all the way squre, the amount of "down force" it will contribute is low.

 

OTOH, if you just use a block at the widest point (ie the guy) it works great on the pole side, but because the block is so far forward, it tends to choke the kite inwards whenever you are above DDW.

 

 

So how to make this work?? TWINDS... A twing is a floating block on the line that runs slack and floats on the line whne it is being used as a sheet, but gets cinched tight to the widest point of the hull when it is being used as a guy. That way the one line can be used as both the sheet and the guy and optimized for BOTH.

 

 

Dos this help?

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Thanks to all for the info. Just got to get the hardware and try it out.

 

Lela-

 

In the time that this discussion has occurred, I ran with twings instead of guys. They work perfectly. There was some discussion about snatch blocks, etc. and I can tell you that on my 30 foot boat, they are absolutely not necessary. All I'm using is some small, but strong cordage with heavy caribiners that clip onto the sheets. The twings run through blocks I put on the deck at the widest point of beam. The friction and loads aren't bad at all.

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Good onya Jax. great to see/hear you're working it all out and sharing it around.. :)

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I have a T-10, 33' fractional, and we run w twings and the small holt snap blocks 1:1. After trying other opts, that is by far the best set up.

 

Problem w/ carabiners is friction under load. You will most often find that trying to guy back the pole off the headstay in anything over 12kts. Even w/ the small bearing blocks for twings, you're using a winch in low gear to guy back that first foot or so, a carabiner dramatically increase that friction load and beats the shit out of your lines at that one point.

 

Another tip I'll add is we run a continuous line connecting both twing blocks, with the bullseye/camcleat combo right at the toerail.

This allows a mid crew, (forward of the busy cockpit) to control the twing on/twing off through the jibes. Works great.

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What is it that keeps the pole "stable?

 

Essentially it is a triangle of three lines:


  1.  
  2. Topping lift pulls up and in
  3. Foreguy pulls forward and down and in
  4. Guy pulls aft and down and in.
     

 

 

What you need depends on the geometry of the lines on your boat. Some foreguys have more of a down vector than others, depending on where they land on the deck.

 

If you want to get away with one line on each corner of the chute, you can try this. Put a snatch block on the rail each side about mid-ships. When the sail goes up, have the sheet run to a block far back, and then to the winch. The guy runs to the snatch block, then the turning block and the winch. When jibing, capture the sheet in the snatch block and do the jibe with both line rigged as guys. On the new jibe, release the new sheet. This works as long as the wind is light enough that you can control the lines easily. The flaw is the theory is the price of snatch blocks.

 

If you have two lines on each corner of the chute (sheet and guy), it's easier, but there is more line to keep track of. In very light air, you don't want the weight. You might want to use a light line for the sheet and unclip the lazy guy. Just remember to reattach the lazy guy before starting a jibe.

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What is it that keeps the pole "stable?

 

Essentially it is a triangle of three lines:


  1.  
  2. Topping lift pulls up and in
  3. Foreguy pulls forward and down and in
  4. Guy pulls aft and down and in.
     

 

 

If you want to get away with one line on each corner of the chute, you can try this. Put a snatch block on the rail each side about mid-ships. When the sail goes up, have the sheet run to a block far back, and then to the winch. The guy runs to the snatch block, then the turning block and the winch. When jibing, capture the sheet in the snatch block and do the jibe with both line rigged as guys. On the new jibe, release the new sheet. This works as long as the wind is light enough that you can control the lines easily. The flaw is the theory is the price of snatch blocks.

 

 

 

This is exactly why you use TWINGS!!

 

Try getting a loaded sheet out of a snatch block and get back to us on how that goes, I would suggest wearing a mouthguard...

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What is it that keeps the pole "stable?

 

Essentially it is a triangle of three lines:

  1. Topping lift pulls up and in
  2. Foreguy pulls forward and down and in
  3. Guy pulls aft and down and in.

 

 

If you want to get away with one line on each corner of the chute, you can try this. Put a snatch block on the rail each side about mid-ships. When the sail goes up, have the sheet run to a block far back, and then to the winch. The guy runs to the snatch block, then the turning block and the winch. When jibing, capture the sheet in the snatch block and do the jibe with both line rigged as guys. On the new jibe, release the new sheet. This works as long as the wind is light enough that you can control the lines easily. The flaw is the theory is the price of snatch blocks.

 

 

 

This is exactly why you use TWINGS!!

 

Try getting a loaded sheet out of a snatch block and get back to us on how that goes, I would suggest wearing a mouthguard...

 

Obviously it depends on the size of the boat, and how big the chute is, and how much breeze is on, but for right now we do it this way on our S2 9.1. It works even in breezes up to 20kts. Twings are a better solution, and where we are going. It just hasn't reached the top of the priority list. But it can be done with snatch blocks. Make sure block opens away (outside) of the boat so release is away from you body. if you can't hold spin sheet down with one hand (to detension block) its blowing too hard and don't try to release.

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This is exactly why you use TWINGS!!

Try getting a loaded sheet out of a snatch block and get back to us on how that goes, I would suggest wearing a mouthguard...

 

I sail in a light wind area.

 

A general point with respect to jibing: the loads are lightest when the boat is DDW. If the crew is having a bit of a problem, holding DDW can make things a little easier, keeping in mind that an unexpected jibe of the main is decidedly not helpful.

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When running deep in heavy air, you'll be tempted to twing the sheet to control / stabilize the chute. But this also increases the power since it increases draft and stops the head from twisting off. Sometimes you want just a little tension on the twing to stop the oscillations without increasing power.

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