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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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Sportboat Jeff

Fuck Afghanistan and fuck Karzai

43 posts in this topic

I heard this on the BBC on the way to work this am. WTFO????

 

KABUL, Afghanistan — Just days after he stood with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and accused Pakistan of harboring the enemies of his government, President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan said his country would support Pakistan if it ever went to war with the United States.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/world/asia/karzai-says-afghanistan-would-back-pakistan-in-a-conflict-with-us.html

 

Well, that's nice to know, you fucking douchebag. Especially considering that Pakistan has been THE MAJOR source of their problems since day one of the soviet era and probably well before. Certainly Paki has been the biggest de-stabilizing factor in Afghanistan since 9/11.

 

So yeah, what exactly DID all our blood and treasure buy us? It certainly wasn't any sense of gratitude or loyalty. If Obama had any sense, he'd be out of there so fast Karzai wouldn't even be able to shit himself fast enough. Fuck him and fuck that tribal, backward, stoneage POS patch of dirt.

 

[/rant off]

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Karzai is a corrupt, incompetent sleazebag and a back stabbing cock nozzle. WTF are we sacrificing our troops' lives for to keep him in power for?.

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I heard this on the BBC on the way to work this am. WTFO????

 

KABUL, Afghanistan — Just days after he stood with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and accused Pakistan of harboring the enemies of his government, President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan said his country would support Pakistan if it ever went to war with the United States.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/world/asia/karzai-says-afghanistan-would-back-pakistan-in-a-conflict-with-us.html

 

Well, that's nice to know, you fucking douchebag. Especially considering that Pakistan has been THE MAJOR source of their problems since day one of the soviet era and probably well before. Certainly Paki has been the biggest de-stabilizing factor in Afghanistan since 9/11.

 

So yeah, what exactly DID all our blood and treasure buy us? It certainly wasn't any sense of gratitude or loyalty. If Obama had any sense, he'd be out of there so fast Karzai wouldn't even be able to shit himself fast enough. Fuck him and fuck that tribal, backward, stoneage POS patch of dirt.

 

[/rant off]

Whack-a-mole is the answer. Our politicians are not capable of nationbuilding.

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why should they be, we have no business nation building anyway.

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Fuck him and fuck that tribal, backward, stoneage POS patch of dirt.

 

[/rant off]

 

There is a interesting video online of Karzai sitting with Hillary last week and laughing about Hermann Cain and others who know nothing about the geography of the world.

 

It can sometimes make one wonder just WHO is backward. At least Karzai knows who and what is where.....

 

That said, I'm with you. Obama took out Bin Laden for a tiny bit of scratch. We could have done that in the first place. Perhaps your beef lies with the 85% of Americans who cheered the first bombs dropping?

 

Once you create shitworld, it's hard to get out without stinking bad.

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He's pleading for his life. They caught one of his bodyguards in a plot to kill him early this month.

 

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/10/afghanistan-karzai-bodyguard-had-been-recruited-in-assassination-plot-against-him.html

 

I suspect it was one of those "gotcha" questions, or the anticipation of one, or perhaps after a bong hit. The main point appeared to be that he would go to war with Pakistan against India, at least to the Indian press. America was just an add on, as we are clearly becoming more allied with India and less with Pakistan.

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/10467672.cms

 

He has allied himself with India, and that is unacceptable to Pakistan. He knows they can kill him if they keep at it, more likely than not.

 

We are leaving. He has to try to stay alive in there. Fuck him? No problem with that, but I think he's pretty well fucked already.

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why should they be, we have no business nation building anyway.

+1

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We are leaving. He has to try to stay alive in there. Fuck him? No problem with that, but I think he's pretty well fucked already.

 

Bingo, in that part of the world, staying alive isn't just a political thing.

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Well, that's nice to know, you fucking douchebag. Especially considering that Pakistan has been THE MAJOR source of their problems since day one of the soviet era and probably well before. Certainly Paki has been the biggest de-stabilizing factor in Afghanistan since 9/11.

 

So yeah, what exactly DID all our blood and treasure buy us? It certainly wasn't any sense of gratitude or loyalty. If Obama had any sense, he'd be out of there so fast Karzai wouldn't even be able to shit himself fast enough. Fuck him and fuck that tribal, backward, stoneage POS patch of dirt.

 

[/rant off]

lol.

 

Of course you have been wasting your time. You are a moron for believing your government's/military's positive spin.

A few of them may smile nicely while the cameras are around, but they are all just waiting for you to leave and quit shooting the countryside up. They are plenty good at that themselves, and need no extra help.

 

The whole enterprise has been obvious fail ever since the US decided to do more than bomb a few terrorist training facilities and gtfo.

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... but I think he's pretty well fucked already.

American stooge regimes never last long once support is removed. Sometimes, like in Tunisia and Egypt, even US support isn't enough.

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Of course you have been wasting your time. You are a moron for believing your government's/military's positive spin.

A few of them may smile nicely while the cameras are around, but they are all just waiting for you to leave and quit shooting the countryside up. They are plenty good at that themselves, and need no extra help.

 

The whole enterprise has been obvious fail ever since the US decided to do more than bomb a few terrorist training facilities and gtfo.

 

I never believed the shit for one second.

 

I learned that lesson when I was 16 - the government lies...early and often. I was revolted as they trotted out all the lies and PR (the Pat TIllman one was particularly disgusting) to buttress the case for war. Even time I hear "listen to the generals" or "support the troops", I see more liberty down the drain.....since those are code words for "pay no attention to what is really occurring".

 

If only the right, who now questions everything Obama does, would have asked a question or two of their own neocons.

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Listen to what Mark K had to say - and try to understand the precarious nature of EVERYTHING over there, coupled w/the myriad of conflicting intents being described in a variety of media outlets. I'm not givin' Karzai a pass, but, in his shoes, w/Pakistani based insurgents waitin' to pounce - I'd probably be making political statements that got me the most mileage w/whoever was gonna be left.

 

What's this got to do w/what we've done - not a whole lot. What're WE gonna do once we're gone? Probably not a whole lot, 'til we go back for round 2.

 

Interesting to see the comments from the weasels who want to trust every despot out there to not hurt us as long as we don't call them on their bad behavior - some of you are truly naive to the evil that flourishes in some parts of the world.

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Listen to what Mark K had to say - and try to understand the precarious nature of EVERYTHING over there, coupled w/the myriad of conflicting intents being described in a variety of media outlets. I'm not givin' Karzai a pass, but, in his shoes, w/Pakistani based insurgents waitin' to pounce - I'd probably be making political statements that got me the most mileage w/whoever was gonna be left.

It doesn't matter what he says. He's toast. He knows it.

What's this got to do w/what we've done - not a whole lot. What're WE gonna do once we're gone? Probably not a whole lot, 'til we go back for round 2.

 

Interesting to see the comments from the weasels who want to trust every despot out there to not hurt us as long as we don't call them on their bad behavior - some of you are truly naive to the evil that flourishes in some parts of the world.

You are truely naive if you believe that the US is capable of restraining said evilness by visiting death and destruction upon entire countries.

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What's this got to do w/what we've done - not a whole lot. What're WE gonna do once we're gone? Probably not a whole lot, 'til we go back for round 2.

 

 

 

Hmm...what's it got to so with what we do and have done?

 

How about this? We go to war against Iraq for virtually nothing, threaten regularly to go to war against Iran for the same....EXCUSE the Saudis for financing evil and 9/11 and everything else...THEN, we make excuses for Karzai saying he would fight against us????

 

Whatever happened to "moral authority" ?? Perhaps you are too ingrained to see. But I can assure you - from the outside, it looks worse than bad. It looks like it is against EVERYTHING our founders and constitution...as well as many of the other important documents of the last 800 years...stand for.

 

 

If, however, you truly believe we are simply Mad Max, then your views make perfect sense.

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Listen to what Mark K had to say - and try to understand the precarious nature of EVERYTHING over there, coupled w/the myriad of conflicting intents being described in a variety of media outlets. I'm not givin' Karzai a pass, but, in his shoes, w/Pakistani based insurgents waitin' to pounce - I'd probably be making political statements that got me the most mileage w/whoever was gonna be left.

 

What's this got to do w/what we've done - not a whole lot. What're WE gonna do once we're gone? Probably not a whole lot, 'til we go back for round 2.

 

Interesting to see the comments from the weasels who want to trust every despot out there to not hurt us as long as we don't call them on their bad behavior - some of you are truly naive to the evil that flourishes in some parts of the world.

 

Look, I know its total political posturing on Karzai's part based on survival. Part of my rant was directed at his words, but the reality is that after 10 years - the Afghans (outside of Kabul maybe) don't want our help. They're a tribal society and don't want our money and roads and schools. SO fuck 'em.

 

For a pretty good look at the mentality in the countryside - go watch the movie "Restrepo". The contempt for the American's who were giving their lives to protect these villages from the Taliban was obvious.

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The CNN special "Living with the Taliban", the Norwegian guy who lived with them, must be watched along with Restrepo. They happened to be the guys on the other side of the hill behind that position. Next valley over.

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The CNN special "Living with the Taliban", the Norwegian guy who lived with them, must be watched along with Restrepo. They happened to be the guys on the other side of the hill behind that position. Next valley over.

I will definitely look for it. Any idea if its still on CNN's page?

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In the average democracy, the citizenry are required to 'authorize'– either by supporting or at least capitulating – the sending of forces to war. However, the average citizenry are not actually very interested in finding the deeper meanings behind such actions so the Government broadly and the media specifically are prone to simplify and dumb down the conflict. Eventually, everything is painted as black and white because it's easy and lets face it, people are generally lazy and can get away with such simplified assertions mostof the time.

 

 

Afghanistanis one of those places where it's very hard to broad brush everything. Given the number of foreign forces that have ground themselves to dust against that part of the world, we're just par for course.

 

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Our experience with Pakistan should teach us about that part of the world; The people in power over there really don't give a shit about their people or their country. Rather, they use their authority to promote war, while speaking out of both sides of their mouths, taking all available cash, and wrapping it all up in the guise of nationalism and religious xenophobia, while protecting the sources of their income.

 

 

There's a lesson in there for those who deign to take a second to reflect...

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The people in power over there really don't give a shit about their people or their country. Rather, they use their authority to promote war, while speaking out of both sides of their mouths, taking all available cash, and wrapping it all up in the guise of nationalism and religious xenophobia, while protecting the sources of their income.

 

 

There's a lesson in there for those who deign to take a second to reflect...

 

Sounds like a description of modern America, when you think of it, eh???

 

Tell me which parts don't fit.

 

 

 

 

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The people in power over there really don't give a shit about their people or their country. Rather, they use their authority to promote war, while speaking out of both sides of their mouths, taking all available cash, and wrapping it all up in the guise of nationalism and religious xenophobia, while protecting the sources of their income.

 

 

There's a lesson in there for those who deign to take a second to reflect...

 

Sounds like a description of modern America most western governments, when you think of it, eh???

 

Tell me which parts don't fit.

Fixed

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The people in power over there really don't give a shit about their people or their country. Rather, they use their authority to promote war, while speaking out of both sides of their mouths, taking all available cash, and wrapping it all up in the guise of nationalism and religious xenophobia, while protecting the sources of their income.

 

 

There's a lesson in there for those who deign to take a second to reflect...

 

Sounds like a description of modern America most western governments, when you think of it, eh???

 

Tell me which parts don't fit.

Fixed

Yeah, but the pakis are a lot more subtle about it than we are.

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The CNN special "Living with the Taliban", the Norwegian guy who lived with them, must be watched along with Restrepo. They happened to be the guys on the other side of the hill behind that position. Next valley over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3G8RkKdXhc

 

A one-half hour long production in two parts:

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkk5HMwCCQE

 

and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On4OE9Ikb4U

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The CNN special "Living with the Taliban", the Norwegian guy who lived with them, must be watched along with Restrepo. They happened to be the guys on the other side of the hill behind that position. Next valley over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3G8RkKdXhc

 

A one-half hour long production in two parts:

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkk5HMwCCQE

 

and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On4OE9Ikb4U

Cool, thanks!

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Karzai is a corrupt, incompetent sleazebag and a back stabbing cock nozzle. WTF are we sacrificing our troops' lives for to keep him in power for?.

That may be true but he was the best applicant for the job. It's him or the Taliban.

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Karzai is a corrupt, incompetent sleazebag and a back stabbing cock nozzle. WTF are we sacrificing our troops' lives for to keep him in power for?.

That may be true but he was the best applicant for the job. It's him or the Taliban.

If you paid attention to the news you'd probably notice that it's going to end up being the Taliban again anyway.

 

And what was wrong with the Taliban anyway? Sure, they didn't go to your church, but after an exhaustive civil war process they were selected by the people.

If the government had been permitted to run for a while and sort out some of the mayhem left over from 15 years of war, I'm sure there would have been an organic and natural progression towards a more familiar style of government.

 

These things don't happen overnight, and bombing them some more doesn't help.

 

If you guys had gone and got some evidence rather than going all rambo, you would have saved yourself a decade:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm

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Battlecheese WTF are you talking about ?

 

The Taliban were happy to shelter Bin_Laden and Al-Q. The only remotely positive thing they did was stamp out the growing of poppies for the drug trade.

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Karzai is a corrupt, incompetent sleazebag and a back stabbing cock nozzle. WTF are we sacrificing our troops' lives for to keep him in power for?.

That may be true but he was the best applicant for the job. It's him or the Taliban.

If you paid attention to the news you'd probably notice that it's going to end up being the Taliban again anyway.

 

And what was wrong with the Taliban anyway? Sure, they didn't go to your church, but after an exhaustive civil war process they were selected by the people.

If the government had been permitted to run for a while and sort out some of the mayhem left over from 15 years of war, I'm sure there would have been an organic and natural progression towards a more familiar style of government.

 

These things don't happen overnight, and bombing them some more doesn't help.

 

If you guys had gone and got some evidence rather than going all rambo, you would have saved yourself a decade:

http://news.bbc.co.u...sia/1539468.stm

...except for that World Trade Center thingy and a few other attacks..., outright intimidation, subjugation of women and outright bloody cowardly murder...If there was a button to make them all disappear, there would be people crushed in the scrum.

 

Religious law always leads to the basest examples of human exploitation.

 

 

 

Keerysssst. You're officially on the douche list.

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Battlecheese WTF are you talking about ?

 

The Taliban were happy to shelter Bin_Laden and Al-Q. The only remotely positive thing they did was stamp out the growing of poppies for the drug trade.

 

Record crops last year. The Taliban and the junkies are all happy.The world should just write off that entire part of the world as a hopelessly corrupt and morally bankrupt lost cause. Want to help? Help those that want to get out of there...

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Battlecheese WTF are you talking about ?

 

The Taliban were happy to shelter Bin_Laden and Al-Q. The only remotely positive thing they did was stamp out the growing of poppies for the drug trade.

As the BBC report I linked showed, they were also quite happy to extradite him to the US if any evidence linking him to the bombing was provided.

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Battlecheese WTF are you talking about ?

 

The Taliban were happy to shelter Bin_Laden and Al-Q. The only remotely positive thing they did was stamp out the growing of poppies for the drug trade.

 

Record crops last year. The Taliban and the junkies are all happy.The world should just write off that entire part of the world as a hopelessly corrupt and morally bankrupt lost cause. Want to help? Help those that want to get out of there...

The Taliban are religious freaks who do not approve of the Poppy trade.

These poppies you bitch about are being grown by your allies. As you observe, the poppy trade has been booming since the US intervention disrupted the Taliban.

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...except for that World Trade Center thingy and a few other attacks..., outright intimidation, subjugation of women and outright bloody cowardly murder...If there was a button to make them all disappear, there would be people crushed in the scrum.

 

Religious law always leads to the basest examples of human exploitation.

 

Keerysssst. You're officially on the douche list.

Countries which are warzones tend to get fairly oppressive leadership until everything settles down a bit. Especially if they are fragmented tribal areas to begin with.

Expect something similar in Libya.

 

The Taliban were not responsible for any of those attacks. As already discussed, they were happy to work with the US on extradition provided any evidence could be provided.

 

Your comic-book world must be nice with it's clear black/white goodies/baddies delineations.

Unfortunately in real life there's a lot of grey around.

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Karzai is a corrupt, incompetent sleazebag and a back stabbing cock nozzle. WTF are we sacrificing our troops' lives for to keep him in power for?.

That may be true but he was the best applicant for the job. It's him or the Taliban.

If you paid attention to the news you'd probably notice that it's going to end up being the Taliban again anyway.

 

And what was wrong with the Taliban anyway? Sure, they didn't go to your church, but after an exhaustive civil war process they were selected by the people.

If the government had been permitted to run for a while and sort out some of the mayhem left over from 15 years of war, I'm sure there would have been an organic and natural progression towards a more familiar style of government.

 

These things don't happen overnight, and bombing them some more doesn't help.

 

If you guys had gone and got some evidence rather than going all rambo, you would have saved yourself a decade:

http://news.bbc.co.u...sia/1539468.stm

...except for that World Trade Center thingy and a few other attacks..., outright intimidation, subjugation of women and outright bloody cowardly murder...If there was a button to make them all disappear, there would be people crushed in the scrum.

 

Religious law always leads to the basest examples of human exploitation.

 

 

 

Keerysssst. You're officially on the douche list.

 

It's probably not correct to conflate the Taliban with Al Qaeda. There has never been any evidence that he let Mullah Omar in on the 9/11 plot, or any of the other ones, and much anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

 

They brought law and order, and that was the reason they prevailed in the Afghanistan of the 90's, which was just plain nuts. So bad, many people were willing to support them, some may even have known how puritan the brand of Islam would be. That, with Paki funding and arms, and religious organization giving them cadres of young, committed men, made them all but unstoppable despite their low numbers.

 

They, like most puritanical orders, were inward focused. Much more interested in fencing the rest of the world out than evangelically spreading a "message". Contact with the unclean outsiders they tended to avoid whenever possible.

 

It's entirely possible some combination of disbelieving, about what the consequences would be (they did think of themselves as tough guys) or in Bin Ladens guilt, and adherence with Sharia laws of hospitality, shaped their decision making process.

 

They ran to Palistan, but being a refugee can really suck. They eventually decided to take a shot at going back home, and since we had done squat-all about anticipating and preventing that, it was pretty easy for them to move back in with family among the Pashtun mountain tribes.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/25/the-taliban-in-their-own-words.html

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Hate to say I told you so........

 

But I did at least 4 years ago.

 

It's a shame so many American soldiers gave their lives for nothing

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Battlecheese WTF are you talking about ?

 

The Taliban were happy to shelter Bin_Laden and Al-Q. The only remotely positive thing they did was stamp out the growing of poppies for the drug trade.

As the BBC report I linked showed, they were also quite happy to extradite him to the US if any evidence linking him to the bombing was provided.

 

Cite?

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...except for that World Trade Center thingy and a few other attacks..., outright intimidation, subjugation of women and outright bloody cowardly murder...If there was a button to make them all disappear, there would be people crushed in the scrum.

 

Religious law always leads to the basest examples of human exploitation.

 

Keerysssst. You're officially on the douche list.

Countries which are warzones tend to get fairly oppressive leadership until everything settles down a bit. Especially if they are fragmented tribal areas to begin with.

Expect something similar in Libya.

 

The Taliban were not responsible for any of those attacks. As already discussed, they were happy to work with the US on extradition provided any evidence could be provided.

 

Your comic-book world must be nice with it's clear black/white goodies/baddies delineations.

Unfortunately in real life there's a lot of grey around.

 

Al Qeda was in bed with the Taliban with imported fighters from Arab countries throughout Asia.

 

Toward the end of the mess, an estimated 40-50000 force fighting on the side of the Taliban, but only about 10-15000 were Afghans. In all its grace, the Waziri Taliban specifically targeted persons of the Shia religious or Hazara ethnic background. UN officials are on record that there had been "15 massacres" between 1996 and 2001 committed by the Taliban, in addition to the well documented loss of historic treasures in the name of Sharia and Fundamentalism, and the known oppression of women. Ahmed Shah Massoud was a Taliban moderate, reached out to the West, and after numerous assassination attempts, they killed him. So much for Muslim revisionist history.

 

I find it interesting that the religious/revisionist Fundie nuts are all consistent throughout the world; no matter the religion, all at once predictably declare their righteousness, innocence and underscore their religious writing excerpts to justify crimes carried out against their fellow man, always expounding upon its peaceful tenets as some warm blanketing dominion...while at the same time, they advocate killing people. Damn any Fundamentalist ideologies that place pretense before human reason and compromise.

 

I hope the Taliban and Karzai, and Pakistan form a nice alliance. Those snakes deserve each other.

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...except for that World Trade Center thingy and a few other attacks..., outright intimidation, subjugation of women and outright bloody cowardly murder...If there was a button to make them all disappear, there would be people crushed in the scrum.

 

Religious law always leads to the basest examples of human exploitation.

 

Keerysssst. You're officially on the douche list.

Countries which are warzones tend to get fairly oppressive leadership until everything settles down a bit. Especially if they are fragmented tribal areas to begin with.

Expect something similar in Libya.

 

The Taliban were not responsible for any of those attacks. As already discussed, they were happy to work with the US on extradition provided any evidence could be provided.

 

Your comic-book world must be nice with it's clear black/white goodies/baddies delineations.

Unfortunately in real life there's a lot of grey around.

 

Al Qeda was in bed with the Taliban with imported fighters from Arab countries throughout Asia.

 

Toward the end of the mess, an estimated 40-50000 force fighting on the side of the Taliban, but only about 10-15000 were Afghans. In all its grace, the Waziri Taliban specifically targeted persons of the Shia religious or Hazara ethnic background. UN officials are on record that there had been "15 massacres" between 1996 and 2001 committed by the Taliban, in addition to the well documented loss of historic treasures in the name of Sharia and Fundamentalism, and the known oppression of women. Ahmed Shah Massoud was a Taliban moderate, reached out to the West, and after numerous assassination attempts, they killed him. So much for Muslim revisionist history.

 

I find it interesting that the religious/revisionist Fundie nuts are all consistent throughout the world; no matter the religion, all at once predictably declare their righteousness, innocence and underscore their religious writing excerpts to justify crimes carried out against their fellow man, always expounding upon its peaceful tenets as some warm blanketing dominion...while at the same time, they advocate killing people. Damn any Fundamentalist ideologies that place pretense before human reason and compromise.

 

I hope the Taliban and Karzai, and Pakistan form a nice alliance. Those snakes deserve each other.

 

Massoud was never a Talibani. A very pious man, but "Taliban" is not a sect of Islam. Religion played a minimal part compared to ethnic and tribal links for him and others like him. He was a Tajik. The Taliban was (and is) nearly entirely of the of the eastern and southern branches of the Pashtun.

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Battlecheese WTF are you talking about ?

The Taliban were happy to shelter Bin_Laden and Al-Q. The only remotely positive thing they did was stamp out the growing of poppies for the drug trade.

As the BBC report I linked showed, they were also quite happy to extradite him to the US if any evidence linking him to the bombing was provided.

Cite?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm

 

Too cool to scroll up 1 page?

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The Afgans have never been conquered, they are not about to be by ISAF or whatever the US/UK/etc force is called.

 

The invasion of Afganistan was totally justified based on their support of Al-Q. The very big mistake has been to loose focus on that job in the pursuit of personal agendas against Hussain and Iraq (and of course the oil).

 

To me the headline of the thread shows the frustration with the situation in Afganistan. What were you expecting, them to be grateful we invaded their country ? There has never been the political will to win that war and without it we should never have gotten embroiled in it.

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The Afgans have never been conquered, they are not about to be by ISAF or whatever the US/UK/etc force is called.

 

The invasion of Afganistan was totally justified based on their support of Al-Q. The very big mistake has been to loose focus on that job in the pursuit of personal agendas against Hussain and Iraq (and of course the oil).

 

To me the headline of the thread shows the frustration with the situation in Afganistan. What were you expecting, them to be grateful we invaded their country ? There has never been the political will to win that war and without it we should never have gotten embroiled in it.

 

Actually - at the onset of our entry into Afghanistan - locals in opposition to the Taliban were indeed very thankful for our assistance. Read the book "The Horse Soldiers" .

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Al Qeda was in bed with the Taliban with imported fighters from Arab countries throughout Asia.

 

Toward the end of the mess, an estimated 40-50000 force fighting on the side of the Taliban, but only about 10-15000 were Afghans. In all its grace, the Waziri Taliban specifically targeted persons of the Shia religious or Hazara ethnic background. UN officials are on record that there had been "15 massacres" between 1996 and 2001 committed by the Taliban, in addition to the well documented loss of historic treasures in the name of Sharia and Fundamentalism, and the known oppression of women. Ahmed Shah Massoud was a Taliban moderate, reached out to the West, and after numerous assassination attempts, they killed him. So much for Muslim revisionist history.

 

I find it interesting that the religious/revisionist Fundie nuts are all consistent throughout the world; no matter the religion, all at once predictably declare their righteousness, innocence and underscore their religious writing excerpts to justify crimes carried out against their fellow man, always expounding upon its peaceful tenets as some warm blanketing dominion...while at the same time, they advocate killing people. Damn any Fundamentalist ideologies that place pretense before human reason and compromise.

 

I hope the Taliban and Karzai, and Pakistan form a nice alliance. Those snakes deserve each other.

 

Where do you get your information from.... Comic books???? Massoud was actively at war with the Taliban. That was where the "northern alliance" came from..... They were actively at war with the Taliban who were trying to take over the Panjir valley as well as the rest of Northern Afghanistan who were holdouts to being assimilAted by the Taliban. Massed was the head of the Northern Alliance, a loose confederation of tribal warlords who were resisting the Taliban advance. Massoud was killed by AQ spies who posed as a news crew and blew him up during a mock interview. He was assassinated two days before the 9/11 attacks, and it's been postulated that he was killed by AQ to appease the Taliban to continue helping OBL knowing that retaliation by the US was imminent.

 

Read "First in" and "Ghost Wars" to educate yourself on the real history of Afghanistan during that time.

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As an add-on to the topic, here is the first section of the BBC special on Pakistan's double game.

 

 

There are 5 more 10 minute Youtube segments, making the first hour of the series. The second hour should be out next week.

 

People are talking openly now about what went down in there, and is key to understanding Karzai's desperation to cut some kind of deal with Pakistan.

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