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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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schobidoo

Best Boats 2012 Winner: The VX One Design

101 posts in this topic

How are we going to square 1D racing with two models on the same course? We need to handicap them someway to encourage larger fleets for both.

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Awesome award! The VX is a sweet boat.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

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post-21083-092958400 1321999871_thumb.jpg

 

 

Great boat from a great guy (mate). Rachel and Hayden, too. All this in less than a year, and made in the good ol' USA.

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post-21083-092958400 1321999871_thumb.jpg

 

 

Great boat from a great guy (mate). Rachel and Hayden, too. All this in less than a year, and made in the good ol' USA.

 

 

Boat looks like a lot of fun. I guess, a trap would be a nice addtition thiough. I don't like the idea of having to sail such a boat 3 up in a breeze. Looks like a 2-person boat to me.

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You can put a MHK, fat head main, and traps for the gran prix level boat....I think you can drop the keel and put in a daggerboard...I'm sure somebody else could clarify further.

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You can put a MHK, fat head main, and traps for the gran prix level boat....I think you can drop the keel and put in a daggerboard...I'm sure somebody else could clarify further.

 

Or you can get a Nacra 20, F18, F20C... and go even faster.

 

Not knocking the VX, love the boat. The boat is a small keel sportboat, so why change it?

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concept is for 1 platform which can accommodate a range of skill levels...I think its pretty cool (not a buyer, fyi)

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How much is in the keel ?

 

Isvit self righting ?

 

I believe the bulb weighs aroud 140 pound. I would guess this is just enough to make the boat self righting. Assuming the boat will be sailed rather flat, the bulb likely isn't going to contribute a lot of righting moment when sailing though.

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How much is in the keel ?

 

Isvit self righting ?

 

I believe the bulb weighs aroud 140 pound. I would guess this is just enough to make the boat self righting. Assuming the boat will be sailed rather flat, the bulb likely isn't going to contribute a lot of righting moment when sailing though.

 

I asked the same question.

 

Looking at the spec sheet,the bulb's design weight is 135 pounds.

This seems to be the lightest bulb of the Twenty foot hiking sporties by a considerable margin.

 

Open 5.70 : 330lbs

K6 : 270lbs

Viper : 220 lbs

VX : 135lbs

 

I think that the stability order of the four boats is approximately the same, with VX as closest to dinghy.

 

The Open is regarded as very much a keel boat, and passes the self righting standard.

The K6 has same upwind sail area as the VX, similar hull weight but double the ballast and passes the self righting standard.

The Viper class promo material says that Paul Handley redesigned the original Bennett keel bulb adding just enough weight,35lbs, to pass the self righting standard.

 

One guesses that the VX was aimed at the furthest end of the performance spectrum and is not trying to pass the self righting standard.

 

Nothing wrong with that, but I doubt VX wants to be burdened with the legal liability of the self-righting description. It is bulb assisted righting or something like that.

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Take a look here at 00:52

 

 

The boat did not turtle, but the keel went completely out of the water with still one crew member standing on the leeward side. It gives you an idea of what to expect. I think the beam gives the crew enough time to react in case of a broach.

 

As soon as our hull is here we will plug more detailed info.

 

Best,

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And now Brian is turning VX production over to Edgewater Yachts in Florida.

 

I guess he doesn't want to actually build boats, just do the fun demo / marketing part.

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Rod. Nobody is knocking the boat, just asking the question of whether it passes the international self righting standard. The video was a very controlled and deliberate broach - it was not going over. The self righting standard is a totally objective standard which the VX will either pass or not pass. It is described in the Open website somewhere. In Europe I believe you are required to state if a boat meets the standard. In the US, its optional but for obvious liability reasons you wouldn't be wise to use the the phrase "self righting" unless it met that precise defined standard.

 

Hotair,Where did you get that info? Okay just spotted that on the website. Agreed its a change in course, but why not? Building boats is hard work and who blames the designer for wanting to focus on the fun part. You dont see Reichel with a brush full of epoxy in his hand.

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Right on!

 

No worries,we are all on the same page on both subjects. I have not tested the boat yet, so as soon as we get it on the water (sometime in January) I'll see how she behaves. We sail in Texas in winter, but still the water is not welcoming enough for a swim.

 

Brian is supervising the construction process as well supporting the dealers and the owners, so having a boat builder work on the boats allows for time to support the other areas of the project, which is moving quite well.

 

Stay tuned!

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I was going to repond to Hotair's post by saying "wouldn't you" ;-)

 

Smart move ( my vx, hull number 106 will be sitting right next to my two Bennett vipers in a few weeks, hopefully). I believe out of the gate sales far exceeded expectations, some of that may be due to international interest. My info is that boat's are being infused to Brian's standards by Edgewater - a company with large resources and a lot of techincal experience.

 

I'm pleased with the move, and i'm a real stickler for construction (just ask Viper640.org ;-) Bennett's done what he needed to do - he designed the boat (with the help of some solid guys), specified construction material / techniques (again with experts in that field that i know very well), will oversee that process and is freed up to do what he does best - introducing people to fun, fast sailing ;-) Not to mention it moved my delivery date up a bit!

 

By the way: Plug for Mardi Gras Race Week, who's going? Already 15 vipers signed up and 7 VX's ( i think). I expect we'll get at least 20 vipers on the line which i've heard we will share with the VX. It's going to rock!

 

Any M20's going? Be cool to have a roaring twenties line at that event. Hope to see it grow into a Charleston Race Week caliber regatta, 10 hours closer to home

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Looking at the spec sheet,the bulb's design weight is 135 pounds.

This seems to be the lightest bulb of the Twenty foot hiking sporties by a considerable margin.

 

Open 5.70 : 330lbs

K6 : 270lbs

Viper : 220 lbs

VX : 135lbs

 

I think that the stability order of the four boats is approximately the same, with VX as closest to dinghy.

 

The Open is regarded as very much a keel boat, and passes the self righting standard.

The K6 has same upwind sail area as the VX, similar hull weight but double the ballast and passes the self righting standard.

The Viper class promo material says that Paul Handley redesigned the original Bennett keel bulb adding just enough weight,35lbs, to pass the self righting standard.

 

One guesses that the VX was aimed at the furthest end of the performance spectrum and is not trying to pass the self righting standard.

 

One can't just compare bulb weights without also considering displacement and beam, as well as other aspects of hull shape. The VX is much lighter (385 empty lb vs 749 lb for the Viper; 830 lb sailing displacement vs about 1300 for the Viper), a bit shorter, and about a foot narrower so the question of whether it passes the self-righting standard is not as simple as just listing the bulb weights.

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Congrats, and best wishes.

 

Looks like a first class operation all the way around. The choice of Edgewater for building seems logical...

 

This certainly heats up the 20 footer market...

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Looking at the spec sheet,the bulb's design weight is 135 pounds.

This seems to be the lightest bulb of the Twenty foot hiking sporties by a considerable margin.

 

Open 5.70 : 330lbs

K6 : 270lbs

Viper : 220 lbs

VX : 135lbs

 

I think that the stability order of the four boats is approximately the same, with VX as closest to dinghy.

 

The Open is regarded as very much a keel boat, and passes the self righting standard.

The K6 has same upwind sail area as the VX, similar hull weight but double the ballast and passes the self righting standard.

The Viper class promo material says that Paul Handley redesigned the original Bennett keel bulb adding just enough weight,35lbs, to pass the self righting standard.

 

One guesses that the VX was aimed at the furthest end of the performance spectrum and is not trying to pass the self righting standard.

 

One can't just compare bulb weights without also considering displacement and beam, as well as other aspects of hull shape. The VX is much lighter (385 empty lb vs 749 lb for the Viper; 830 lb sailing displacement vs about 1300 for the Viper), a bit shorter, and about a foot narrower so the question of whether it passes the self-righting standard is not as simple as just listing the bulb weights.

 

According recent information from Brian Bennett the total weight for the VX will be 230 kgs which equals 507 lb (fully rigged boat without crew)

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Looking at the spec sheet,the bulb's design weight is 135 pounds.

This seems to be the lightest bulb of the Twenty foot hiking sporties by a considerable margin.

 

Open 5.70 : 330lbs

K6 : 270lbs

Viper : 220 lbs

VX : 135lbs

 

I think that the stability order of the four boats is approximately the same, with VX as closest to dinghy.

 

The Open is regarded as very much a keel boat, and passes the self righting standard.

The K6 has same upwind sail area as the VX, similar hull weight but double the ballast and passes the self righting standard.

The Viper class promo material says that Paul Handley redesigned the original Bennett keel bulb adding just enough weight,35lbs, to pass the self righting standard.

 

One guesses that the VX was aimed at the furthest end of the performance spectrum and is not trying to pass the self righting standard.

 

One can't just compare bulb weights without also considering displacement and beam, as well as other aspects of hull shape. The VX is much lighter (385 empty lb vs 749 lb for the Viper; 830 lb sailing displacement vs about 1300 for the Viper), a bit shorter, and about a foot narrower so the question of whether it passes the self-righting standard is not as simple as just listing the bulb weights.

 

According recent information from Brian Bennett the total weight for the VX will be 230 kgs which equals 507 lb (fully rigged boat without crew)

 

230 kg (507 lbs) is 30% over the projected displacement of 175 kg in the design drawings. This is in line with the similar K6 so it seems more realistic.

 

I agree 100% with Trenance that bulb weight is not a complete measure of stability and righting. My post was a follow up after 2 posts about bulb weight and self righting. We can compare bulb weights with sail area, displacement etc but the real test is the objective “self righting” test in the international stability and bouyancy standard ISO 12217. The other three boats have passed this test which apparently is required in Europe by their recreational craft directive. My understanding from previous threads is that the Viper only just scraped past this test after having additional weight added to the original designed keel bulb. The other two boats were designed to meet the standard and did.

 

So comparing K6 and VX.

VX Overall weight: 507lbs Bulb : 135 lbs Weight ex bulb : 372 +/- Upwind SA : 215 sq ft Beam 7.17'

K6 Overall weight: 616lbs Bulb : 270 lbs Weight ex bulb : 346 +/- Upwind SA : 210 sq ft Beam 6'

 

I am going to guess that the K6 has a better righting moment than the VX, but there are plenty of other variables.

 

Frankly I'm not sure that "self righting" matters when you get to the VX end of the spectrum. The VX offers an option without any bulb at all, and Ultra seems to have a visceral dislike of the bulb on his Viper and sheds it from time to time. There is a niche for bulb assisted high performance, so why not?

 

Admittedly, we're waiting for our demo on the J70 but that's a whole different story and it doesn't stop me admiring the more frisky end of the sport boats

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So, based on the specs, do you think the VX will pass the ISO 12217 self righting test, 'just scrape by' or turtle.

If Brian wants to sell the boat in Europe will it need to pass the test ?

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Looking at the spec sheet,the bulb's design weight is 135 pounds.

This seems to be the lightest bulb of the Twenty foot hiking sporties by a considerable margin.

 

Open 5.70 : 330lbs

K6 : 270lbs

Viper : 220 lbs

VX : 135lbs

 

I think that the stability order of the four boats is approximately the same, with VX as closest to dinghy.

 

The Open is regarded as very much a keel boat, and passes the self righting standard.

The K6 has same upwind sail area as the VX, similar hull weight but double the ballast and passes the self righting standard.

The Viper class promo material says that Paul Handley redesigned the original Bennett keel bulb adding just enough weight,35lbs, to pass the self righting standard.

 

One guesses that the VX was aimed at the furthest end of the performance spectrum and is not trying to pass the self righting standard.

 

One can't just compare bulb weights without also considering displacement and beam, as well as other aspects of hull shape. The VX is much lighter (385 empty lb vs 749 lb for the Viper; 830 lb sailing displacement vs about 1300 for the Viper), a bit shorter, and about a foot narrower so the question of whether it passes the self-righting standard is not as simple as just listing the bulb weights.

 

According recent information from Brian Bennett the total weight for the VX will be 230 kgs which equals 507 lb (fully rigged boat without crew)

That weight makes a lot more sense.

 

This page should then update their figure: http://www.velasaili...-PUB-6-1-11.pdf

 

Still a lot lighter than the Viper, but now by a margin that is unsurprising.

 

Thank you for the corrected figure!

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The number of boats actually sold is a great indicator of popularity but what really matters is number of boats sold near YOUR sailing venue.

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Boy, i'm sure glad i didn't let that weigh too heavily on my decision before i pulled the trigger on my viper.

 

The number of boats actually sold is a great indicator of popularity but what really matters is number of boats sold near YOUR sailing venue.

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So it's "buy a VX, and be a leader" Maybe i can get some cred. if they use that in their marketing. A t-shirt or something?

 

Good to to be a leader somewhere - i usually follow on the racecourse.

 

How about ya Kiwi or Brian, can we get some more pictures of this thing? Maybe a sneak peak at some of the finer points?

 

 

Yes, both

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Hey, Ultraracer613um, no worries.

 

As soon as I have the final art for the t-shirts for the Texan VXers you'll get yours.

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So, based on the specs, do you think the VX will pass the ISO 12217 self righting test, 'just scrape by' or turtle.

If Brian wants to sell the boat in Europe will it need to pass the test ?

not if it is sold as a dinghy, which in some forms it will be, a little bulb does not really change that

 

it is shorter than a lot of euro dinghies

 

i don't think you can consider this boat a 'keel boat' type based on it's LOA and bulb

 

fact is it's lighter than a load of U.S. 'can be left tied to the dock' larger dinghies

 

it and the O, V & M are the modern replacement of these Lightnings, Hamptons, heavyweights etc, arguably about time too?

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According recent information from Brian Bennett the total weight for the VX will be 230 kgs which equals 507 lb (fully rigged boat without crew)

That weight makes a lot more sense.

 

This page should then update their figure: http://www.velasaili...-PUB-6-1-11.pdf

 

Still a lot lighter than the Viper, but now by a margin that is unsurprising.

 

Thank you for the corrected figure!

now the weight has come to light, Mythbuster time

 

using any number of DLr calculators with EffWL (not LWL), and the fact that the Viper is a much longer boat, measurably over 10%

 

the comparable weight is virtually the same, DLr: vxo - 33 and vip - 33.9

wind in crew weight to the calc and this is reversed, the Viper then has the lower DLr as it's size allows a greater capacity for the extra weight

 

In any case either way they are both so close as to mean nothing. e.g difference will swap depending on how many water bottles on board, or the slight weight variations of the helmsman say

 

 

 

Note: i am not buying the published LWL figures as a true comparison, they simply do not add up,

especially compared to the real world Eff.WL

 

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The keel trunk also has crash blocks. In case the boat is ran aground is very unlikely to have structural damage, as the blocks will absorb the impact.

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I think this boat should be compared to the RS K6 as they are both really 2 men boats where the Viper etc are 3 men boats.

 

I have an RS K6 and I talked to Paul Young at Rondar to get it measure in Sweden, and the 270 pounds is for the keel+bulb. The keel is about 20kg (45 pounds), so the bulb is about 225 pounds which makes the none ballasted hull weight for the VX and RSK6 about the same. This would be expected given similar size and biuld methods. The RSK6 is an Epoxi boat and have smaller pannel sizes, so if anything I would expect the RSK6 to be a little lighter.

 

Even if they are similar size, they are very different. The RSK6 hull has roundish cross sections, a very narrow water line, and can take a little heal without increasing hull drag that much. A heavier ballast makes sense, as you can actually use it to improve RM.

 

The VX is more dinghy like with flat cross sections aft, and should really be sailed as upright as possible. Here the ballast will do little to improve RM, hence the ballast should only serve to make it self righting and more forgiving to sail. A lesser ballast makes sense.

 

It will be interesting to see how the two compare on the water. My take is that the RSK6 will have a slight edge in light wind thanks to its narrower water line and less wetted surface. Once the breeze is up, the VX should be faster especially downwind where it will plane at lower wind speeds and also have a higher top speed. The RSK6 should also be a more forgiving ride not only due to its higher ballast. The VX should want to round up more when healed excessively (by mistake) due its flatter and wider hull shape at the water line.

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disagree

 

at Garda the K6 is a 3-manner

 

the VX in hiking mode is designer pitched at 450lbs, a 3 manner

 

at SanFrancisco, the gorge, Gulf coast, key west etc etc the faster VX-Ones will be a 3-manners

 

2-man dinghy like hikers top out at about the tasar size, not large skiff type rigs ( they have wings, multi traps etc)

 

the 49er for example needs both wings and traps to hold down a similar rig

 

the Garda K6s show this in practice, not theory

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VX Page on Facebook gets updated pretty regular. Just posted some pics of the new keel struts. http://www.facebook.com/vxone

 

388261_232473843487844_157136427688253_571781_503692608_n.jpg

 

I am just wondering in how far the slot for the kelp cutter at the leading edge of the keel will affect upwind performance. After all, the leading edge is very critical for keel efficiency and I could imagine that the slot would generate unwanted turbulences and hence would prevent laminar flow over the keel profile. Not so much an issue if one sails one design but still I wonder if and how much this will affect upwind performance. Any expert opinions on this?

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I am just wondering in how far the slot for the kelp cutter at the leading edge of the keel will affect upwind performance. After all, the leading edge is very critical for keel efficiency and I could imagine that the slot would generate unwanted turbulences and hence would prevent laminar flow over the keel profile. Not so much an issue if one sails one design but still I wonder if and how much this will affect upwind performance. Any expert opinions on this?

 

The slot for kelp cutter is pretty proven concept, for example on the Melges 20 and 24.

 

AFAIK alloy strut is new territory for a kelp cutter. I do wonder if a stainless steel cutter travelling up and down an aluminum slot will wear out the anodizing? Aluminum and salt water are not great bedfellows?

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disagree

 

at Garda the K6 is a 3-manner

 

the VX in hiking mode is designer pitched at 450lbs, a 3 manner

 

at SanFrancisco, the gorge, Gulf coast, key west etc etc the faster VX-Ones will be a 3-manners

 

2-man dinghy like hikers top out at about the tasar size, not large skiff type rigs ( they have wings, multi traps etc)

 

the 49er for example needs both wings and traps to hold down a similar rig

 

the Garda K6s show this in practice, not theory

 

How predictable that you disagree.

 

I've done many major regattas at both Lake Garda and SF Bay in other classes, and they are hardly typical venues. At both locations you get 20-25 knots wind. And its a thermal wind, so you get this every day. Never raced at the other locations you mentioned, but I think they are similar. To take configurations from these locations and claim they prove something you quite frankly got to be pretty stupid or at best deliberatly just trying to mislead people.

 

Anyhow, the RSK6 is positoned as a 2-3 men boat. But if you look at all the the major regattas in the UK where most of the RSK6 are raced, its predominently sailed by two and I don't think a boat crewed by three have won a single event over the years but it might have happened. But its a great that its also possible to race it with three, to take some hopefully not that heavy girls out.

 

Not sure what the ideal crew weight for the VX is. It has the same SA as the RSK6, a bit wider for better hiking RM but less ballast. Its pitched at 380-450 Ibs (not 450 as you claim, again just trying to mislead), and that's two guys Swedish size. Most if not all of the photos I seen are with two people, but one might be not seen lying on the floor looking for a beer.

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you need a solid dose of reality regarding sportsboats

 

to win, they need their ballast, in this case and most, that is live ballast

 

believe what you wish

 

 

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I am just wondering in how far the slot for the kelp cutter at the leading edge of the keel will affect upwind performance. After all, the leading edge is very critical for keel efficiency and I could imagine that the slot would generate unwanted turbulences and hence would prevent laminar flow over the keel profile. Not so much an issue if one sails one design but still I wonder if and how much this will affect upwind performance. Any expert opinions on this?

 

The slot for kelp cutter is pretty proven concept, for example on the Melges 20 and 24.

 

AFAIK alloy strut is new territory for a kelp cutter. I do wonder if a stainless steel cutter travelling up and down an aluminum slot will wear out the anodizing? Aluminum and salt water are not great bedfellows?

 

I am aware that the kelp cutter is sucessfully used in some boats but that doesn't really answer my question: Does the slot affect upwind performance?

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Yes

 

how much in practical terms who knows, the slot is certainly minimised in this case

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Congratulations to Brian Bennett and Bennett Yachting Technologies, Southern Spars, North Sails and everyone else involved on this project for been awarded Sailing World's Boat of the Year!

 

Here is the article: Sailing World's BOTY

 

 

Awesome job!

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What's the roll out plan on the "Grand Prix" package? I love the trap idea but not if it simply falls through. Are we talking months or years away? 1 year? 5 years? never? That's where the real buzz is on this boat right...at least for me.

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What's the roll out plan on the "Grand Prix" package? I love the trap idea but not if it simply falls through. Are we talking months or years away? 1 year? 5 years? never? That's where the real buzz is on this boat right...at least for me.

 

As I understand it the boat can take traps already.

 

What one might have to wait for would be the bigger sails (main, and masthead spinnaker) of the GP configuration. But the existing sail area is already good, for most anyway.

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What's the roll out plan on the "Grand Prix" package? I love the trap idea but not if it simply falls through. Are we talking months or years away? 1 year? 5 years? never? That's where the real buzz is on this boat right...at least for me.

 

As I understand it the boat can take traps already.

 

What one might have to wait for would be the bigger sails (main, and masthead spinnaker) of the GP configuration. But the existing sail area is already good, for most anyway.

 

And the keel/board swap.

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What's the roll out plan on the "Grand Prix" package? I love the trap idea but not if it simply falls through. Are we talking months or years away? 1 year? 5 years? never? That's where the real buzz is on this boat right...at least for me.

 

As I understand it the boat can take traps already.

 

What one might have to wait for would be the bigger sails (main, and masthead spinnaker) of the GP configuration. But the existing sail area is already good, for most anyway.

 

And the keel/board swap.

Is it a keel-for-board swap or just removing the bulb and putting an end-cap to fair the board? I don't know.

In any case I believe it's already been sailing with no bulb.

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My personal plan is to have my local sail-maker build me a big-ass sail package and put my own traps on it. As for the keel / board, i'm going to see how crazy she get's with all that stuff in the air before i drop in a CB.

Of course, at class events she'll be in OD configuration but on my local pond when it's just me and my man drake - woo hoo!!!

 

In a few years i think it would be bad-ass to have a three or four grand prix events around the country where it's balls-out VX'n - to compliment all the VX One racing.

 

Nice going to the team, accolades just keep rolling in.

 

What's the roll out plan on the "Grand Prix" package? I love the trap idea but not if it simply falls through. Are we talking months or years away? 1 year? 5 years? never? That's where the real buzz is on this boat right...at least for me.

 

As I understand it the boat can take traps already.

 

What one might have to wait for would be the bigger sails (main, and masthead spinnaker) of the GP configuration. But the existing sail area is already good, for most anyway.

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Too bad the VX turtled on the first gybe in 20-25 knots in the Sailing World test (Jan-Feb issue.)

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Was that after they named it Boat of the Year, or before/during?

 

With the bulb, or not?

 

If with the bulb, self-righted, or no?

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At the beginning of the test sail Bennett told the SW guys the VX had never turtled. First gybe in strong breeze the tiller extension caught the mainsheet, they wiped out, and it kept on going. A full turtle with mud on the mainsail. Brian righted and they kept sailing, but not the ideal test sail. The boat was selected BOTY anyway.

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Well, personally I never expected, when considering the boat as a possible option for when finances allow, that I'd never turtle it. Absolutely I expected that to happen. Basically it seems to fit a point in the spectrum that could be described as rather like a dinghy but with some significant bulb stabilization, but blurring the line so to speak between dinghy and sport boat.

 

Thank you for the further info!

 

I wonder if there was some sticking into the mud, with regard to not self-righting.

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Basically it seems to fit a point in the spectrum that could be described as rather like a dinghy but with some significant bulb stabilization, but blurring the line so to speak between dinghy and sport boat.

 

+1

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I am just going on what is written in the new issue of SW, but I infer that the mud was the result of the turtle (and not selfrighting) not the cause.

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But one can't get mud on the sail unless the sail, and mast, hits the mud. Which raises the possibility of some sticking in the mud as interference to self-righting.

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If a VX (or Viper) is completely over, the bulb is not going to help right the boat until the crew or wind or tide gets it started off center.

They are both just too wide and flat.

On Nov 6th we had a Viper on its ear twice when sudden gusts hit and the guest helmsman was slow to react.

Both times it hung at 85ish degrees for a few seconds and then came back.

In its new configuration the Viper has adequate minimum ballast for almost all conditions.

Brian went a little light with the original Viper keel weight, he may have done the same with the VX.

Wouldn't want his old design rolling his new baby.

Currently Viper regs require the main sheet system to be only at the forward (mid boom) position.

That way the tiller will not get tangled and no one will have an excuse.

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But one can't get mud on the sail unless the sail, and mast, hits the mud. Which raises the possibility of some sticking in the mud as interference to self-righting.

 

 

I think it is fair to assume that when the boat is inverted far enough to stick the mast top in the mud, it is far beyond the point of self-righting. Like hotair said, once its inverted, the hull is very stable upside down. So, no, sticking in the mud did not interfere with self-righting. It was the result of turtling, i.e., failure to self-right.

Maybe Brian cares to clarify?

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It seems to me you must define "self-right" differently than I do.

 

Personally I don't see it as being able to always prevent reaching 180 degrees (if water is deep enough and force was great enough) or being able to always prevent the mast from hitting bottom (if water is shallower.)

 

On, once at 180 degrees, needing some impetus to move off of 180 degrees, all or virtually all boats need that.

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I think it is fair to assume that when the boat is inverted far enough to stick the mast top in the mud, it is far beyond the point of self-righting. Like hotair said, once its inverted, the hull is very stable upside down. So, no, sticking in the mud did not interfere with self-righting. It was the result of turtling, i.e., failure to self-right.

Maybe Brian cares to clarify?

 

Brian is offline today, but you can't get more clear than that. Mud on the mast is a result, not a cause. The story I heard was that once they flipped, the support boat picked up the judges then Brian righted the VX by himself, they all re-boarded and continued the test. And judging by the two-sail photo they put in the magazine, there had to have been gusts somewhat higher than just 20-25.

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If being able, under at least some condition, to go over far enough for a sail to hit mud means a boat is not self-righting, then what boats do you consider self-righting?

 

There are boats that can go over 180 degrees while having 50% ballast ratio after all.

 

What does the term mean to you?

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Currently Viper regs require the main sheet system to be only at the forward (mid boom) position.

That way the tiller will not get tangled and no one will have an excuse.

Not to turn this into a Viper thread, but this is incorrect.

 

6.3 The main sheet system shall be a split end mainsheet where the split ends are attached to either the aft pad eyes or the mid bridle pad eyes.

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I stand corrected on the mainsheet issue.

When did they backtrack on this?

I guess Viper owners need to check the online rulebook at least twice a year / month for the latest tweaks.

Several months ago Drew was stewing over how to get around the mid-boom rule.

He didn't like the cosmetic conjestion of the split tail and bridal next to each other.

He is now presumably, pacified.

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I think you have misunderstood the Viper mid boom sheeting thing. You have always been able to either have all your falls at mid boom or take one back to the aft position.

As I recall, Drew does not think leading an aft sheet, which can and does get tangled in your tiller extension, is a good thing when demoing boats to prospective owners (& I agree).

When the class made split tail mandatory last year that resulted in a rather complicated looking mess of line under the mid boom, for those who chose to not go with aft option.

What Drew wanted was the option to keep the simplest of all options - mid boom sheeting without any split tail.

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AMEN essex.

 

I think most of us (outside the North East perhaps) just disregard it. We still have better than half our Texas fleet using the factory-supplied SIMPLE AND CLEAN mid-boom sheeting. I understand the rule was written in an effort to make the viper more "one design" and simple. It gave you two totally different options which is NOT one design, and made the center sheeting system far more complicated.

 

 

Sounds like the 2011 AGM which was not held in sarnia 2011 as schedule, will be held up in your neck of the woods in 2012 (where the audience is less unruly) . Submit a proposal to change the rule back (to no mainsheet rule) Say KISS, and you'll have loads of support.

 

OK, you struck a nerve ;-)

 

Back on track.. I'm heading east next weekend with another fella to pick up our VX One's. Someone earlier hit it - ballast assisted dingy. I cant wait.

 

Essex - you need to come down to MGRW! Should be at least 25 vipers sharing a line with 8 - 10 VX one's. Good times.

I think you have misunderstood the Viper mid boom sheeting thing. You have always been able to either have all your falls at mid boom or take one back to the aft position.

As I recall, Drew does not think leading an aft sheet, which can and does get tangled in your tiller extension, is a good thing when demoing boats to prospective owners (& I agree).

When the class made split tail mandatory last year that resulted in a rather complicated looking mess of line under the mid boom, for those who chose to not go with aft option.

What Drew wanted was the option to keep the simplest of all options - mid boom sheeting without any split tail.

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For iso self righting test which the viper (iirc) and shaw use, the test is inversion for 5 min in the turtled position, then righting the boat and getting all crew back on board. Boat over with all sails up etc.

 

So by definition self righting under iso 12x77 means bringing it back from being over without the boat sinking, leaking, or being stuck upside down.

 

I don't know if the new smaller boat aims to qualify under the same regulations; the smaller u go the less the ballast ratio matters since crew form an increasingly large proportion of the displacement and can force the boat to stay upright or tip it over when they are in the wrong place.

 

Having volume in the wings is partly why some boats sit turtled so comfortably; it is a wide stable 'float' so the boat is quite happy there. The turboed viper sailed by some very slick sailors had the same issue when they turtled it as the bigger rig coupled with the small original bulb made the boat impossible to bring back up with sails up.

 

This boat will go over on its side sure but its so small it will be dead easy to bring it back well before it gets to turtle point. Has anyone paced the std config one against the current smaller breed of sportsboats - viper etc? Curious to know how it goes.

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the problem with self righting and sportboats is IMO that on a plane these boats reach 3-4 times hullspeed. therefore they have a lot of kinetic energy (remember speed is squared in this equation). during a broach this energy is dissipated into the rolling motion. if the kinetic energy is higher than area below the righting arm curve the boat will turtle.

imagine a leadbelly doing similar speeds, I guess some of them would end up upside down after a broach.

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Re-reading the SW test, it does appear that it was gusting higher than 20-25 knots, since boat speeds were 20-24.

 

On the definition of self righting, I was not referring to the ISO definition, just a practical definition that when the boat capsizes 90 degrees or so, the righting moment is sufficient to right the boat without sending crew out on the keel. Of course the amount and location of the crew in the boat is also a factor. For example, a Viper might not self right if the crew stayed on the low side of the cockpit.

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I extremely doubt we'd find that the AVS of the VX One is less than 90 degrees, but perhaps the figure will be provided at some time.

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Bit of video from the recent GYA meeting - bennett taking questions about the VX.

 

 

 

www.noyc.org

 

 

 

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Come see the boat this weekend at Chicago Strictly Sail. Brian is here and will be glad to answer all of your questions.

 

I don't think any test sails are going to happen, considering the harbor is frozen over...

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good time for a video update! See you there Mike. We'll be there open to close on Saturday, well, maybe not open depending on how crazy the winter anarchy party is tomorrow...

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AMEN essex.

 

I think most of us (outside the North East perhaps) just disregard it. We still have better than half our Texas fleet using the factory-supplied SIMPLE AND CLEAN mid-boom sheeting. I understand the rule was written in an effort to make the viper more "one design" and simple. It gave you two totally different options which is NOT one design, and made the center sheeting system far more complicated.

 

 

Sounds like the 2011 AGM which was not held in sarnia 2011 as schedule, will be held up in your neck of the woods in 2012 (where the audience is less unruly) . Submit a proposal to change the rule back (to no mainsheet rule) Say KISS, and you'll have loads of support.

 

OK, you struck a nerve ;-)

 

Back on track.. I'm heading east next weekend with another fella to pick up our VX One's. Someone earlier hit it - ballast assisted dingy. I cant wait.

 

Essex - you need to come down to MGRW! Should be at least 25 vipers sharing a line with 8 - 10 VX one's. Good times.

I think you have misunderstood the Viper mid boom sheeting thing. You have always been able to either have all your falls at mid boom or take one back to the aft position.

As I recall, Drew does not think leading an aft sheet, which can and does get tangled in your tiller extension, is a good thing when demoing boats to prospective owners (& I agree).

When the class made split tail mandatory last year that resulted in a rather complicated looking mess of line under the mid boom, for those who chose to not go with aft option.

What Drew wanted was the option to keep the simplest of all options - mid boom sheeting without any split tail.

 

 

And??? Hows the boat? When do I get a ride?

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Dave,

 

Show up in New Orleans for MGRW in Febuary and there will be a number of them offering rides. Brian is coming aboard as a sponsor, and we should have 8-10 of them on the water racing.

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Fear the monkey - whatever! A pretty funny video from sailing this weekend.

 

Fun boat.

 

Fear the monkey Beatch!!!

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When are we going to see a the interview on the front page of SA with Brian Bennett from the show?

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I think you have misunderstood the Viper mid boom sheeting thing. You have always been able to either have all your falls at mid boom or take one back to the aft position.

As I recall, Drew does not think leading an aft sheet, which can and does get tangled in your tiller extension, is a good thing when demoing boats to prospective owners (& I agree).

When the class made split tail mandatory last year that resulted in a rather complicated looking mess of line under the mid boom, for those who chose to not go with aft option.

What Drew wanted was the option to keep the simplest of all options - mid boom sheeting without any split tail.

 

Hey guys...

 

I don't want to camp on the VX post but I ended up using spectra on the mid-cockpit bridle block, tight as a piano string so the block now sits on the cockpit floor, still attached to the bridle though. Got rid of the two bridle thing for demos and heavy air sailing. It's a rule workaround and it works well.

 

Ok, now back to your regularly scheduled VX one discussion.

 

Oh yeah...cool boat Brain. Congrats on the BOTY.

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I'd like to get a pic of that schoon

 

I think you have misunderstood the Viper mid boom sheeting thing. You have always been able to either have all your falls at mid boom or take one back to the aft position.

As I recall, Drew does not think leading an aft sheet, which can and does get tangled in your tiller extension, is a good thing when demoing boats to prospective owners (& I agree).

When the class made split tail mandatory last year that resulted in a rather complicated looking mess of line under the mid boom, for those who chose to not go with aft option.

What Drew wanted was the option to keep the simplest of all options - mid boom sheeting without any split tail.

 

Hey guys...

 

I don't want to camp on the VX post but I ended up using spectra on the mid-cockpit bridle block, tight as a piano string so the block now sits on the cockpit floor, still attached to the bridle though. Got rid of the two bridle thing for demos and heavy air sailing. It's a rule workaround and it works well.

 

Ok, now back to your regularly scheduled VX one discussion.

 

Oh yeah...cool boat Brain. Congrats on the BOTY.

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If you don't have a VX One and aren't planning on having one, then your rental-boats post seems to be spam...

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I would be interested in learning more about the upwind performance of the VX one. I am sure someone must have taken a GPS or velocitek on the boat when sailing and should be able to provide numbers in this regard. Downwind most sport boats look good in comparison to a conventional keel boat. It is the upwind part where sport boats tend to look less convincing. My prediction would be that the VX one is not particularly strong upwind (short waterline lenght plus wide aft sections) but I may be mistaken. Can anybody please provide numbers regarding tacking angles and upwind speed for the VX one under various wind conditions?

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mr. schobideau, mistaken as you predicted

 

it will be faster upwind than a 19 foot 'conventional keel boat'

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I would be interested in learning more about the upwind performance of the VX one. I am sure someone must have taken a GPS or velocitek on the boat when sailing and should be able to provide numbers in this regard. Downwind most sport boats look good in comparison to a conventional keel boat. It is the upwind part where sport boats tend to look less convincing. My prediction would be that the VX one is not particularly strong upwind (short waterline lenght plus wide aft sections) but I may be mistaken. Can anybody please provide numbers regarding tacking angles and upwind speed for the VX one under various wind conditions?

 

I can provide one upwind data point from racing in Pensacola yesterday, but it's not numbers as I didn't have a compass or velocitek installed yet. We rounded the leeward mark right with the Tripp 26 fleet and headed upwind in 10-15. Lots of dirty air so we stayed away from them as best we could, but ended up right back together again at the weather mark. We were only 360 lbs on the VX which was rather light for the conditions and we were fully or overpowered almost all the time, but FWIW we kept pace upwind with a fleet with 7 feet more waterline, huge keels and large sails.

 

Still, that's just one data point and it's still early days. YMMV.

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Downwind wow! Upwind, too good to be true so until it lines up against something else I'll hold my comment.

 

Downwind it reminded me of the regatta I did where I replaced my viper keel with a centerboard.

 

Never felt even a pinch out of control. I was warned about the instant acceleration in puffs but it was more than I expected

 

The self tacking jib, furler and spin control system were fantastic.

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Jay,

 

How did it go off the wind ?

 

Like Ultra said, nothing but fun. We were easily able to pass the Tripps downwind.

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Sailed #110 yesterday in puffy conditions: 8 to 16 kts of TWS most of the time.

 

Logged 16.2 kts on the Velocitek, reaching down with an 10 second average of 14.2 knots. Relatively flat water, no white caps and very small chop. Upwind was very fast and easy to control. We had almost 480 lbs. on the rail and we got to speeds that we are not going to post here until we are sure can repeat them under similar conditions and with other Velocitek, just to make sure we are not off. However, 5.8 to 6.2 was common to see on the GPS.

 

Pix coming soon.

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