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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
sarah0809

Artemis?

12,607 posts in this topic

hello from germany! i visited the famous hangar-7 airplane museum in salzburg (austria) this week. a cool place. but i saw something intresting out of the sailing world as well. two guys with Artemis Racing Jackets and two guys with red bull baseball caps had a meeting in the cafeshop of the red bull airplane museum. after some investigation i found out it was Artemis Racing CEO Paul Cayard with the austrian multihull double olympic champions roman hagara and hans peter steinacher. the austrians run an extreme 40 team in the extreme 40 world series. artemis was one of their competitors in 2011....intresting....does anyone know if they are sailing for artemis now?

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and i do not know who the second guy with artemis jacket was

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Some people have been posting they think Terry Hutchinson could or should get replaced, so.. That could fit.

 

Thanks for posting, that's interesting.

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oh! just searched for the name hutchinson. maybe he was the other guy. maybe. in other forums they say that artemis ordered a second ac45?

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Yes, they have another AC45 coming and could be looking to add sailors. Maybe even to compete with TH. And to answer your question, No those two guys have not been on the Artemis team so far.

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i follow the extreme 40 from time to time and know sailors from the german team (not in the series anymore). they were always suprised about the austrians and the red bull team. they said that they sail with less budget compared to the top teams but are the only team which was able to win against them. would be intresting to see how they act in a top team.

 

anarchist, thanks for your post and the information about the ac45 boat!

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Some people have been posting they think Terry Hutchinson could or should get replaced, so.. That could fit.

 

Thanks for posting, that's interesting.

 

The Stache and perhaps TH. A long way from home. Don'cha love serendipity!

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Yes, they have another AC45 coming and could be looking to add sailors. Maybe even to compete with TH. And to answer your question, No those two guys have not been on the Artemis team so far.

 

I'm sure they need to build the team - and I think TH will benefit from having a regular sparring partner.

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the left guy (cayard) was there for sure. i saw them with the austrian sailors. if it was hutchinson or not - i cant say 100 percent.

 

 

 

Did they look like these guys ?

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online i found a picture from steinacher with russell coutts from san diego?post-58243-066545100 1324204072_thumb.jpg

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online i found a picture from steinacher with russell coutts from san diego?post-58243-066545100 1324204072_thumb.jpg

So, was RC the second guy in Artemis gear? blink.gif

What did RC and Steinacher had to talk about? What's the connection between this conversation and the Austrian meeting? Link of the pic?

 

 

 

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haha :)

 

there are plenty of images from them from san diego on the net in austria. http://www.redbull.at/cs/Satellite/de_AT/Article/Hagara-Steinacher-Erfahrungsaustausch-in-San-Diego-021243124365318

 

i guess it has nothing to do with that but i found it when i searched for ac images of them

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PC's twitter did say he was meeting with his boss.

(cant find a pic of him right now).

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PC's twitter did say he was meeting with his boss.

(cant find a pic of him right now).

Russell? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

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PC's twitter did say he was meeting with his boss.

(cant find a pic of him right now).

They were there discussing the future of their WSL circus once the AC prefix drops off soon.

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Artemis has Santi Lange already on the payroll since day 1, strange him not having a chance at the AC45. Lange is sponsored by Red Bull as the Austrians and they've trained together for two Olympics. Two Golds for the Euros and two bronce for the Argies plus a T WC in 2004..

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There will be big changes in Artemis.

When they became the new CoR much of trhe talk concerned OR and AR.

 

Now you hear little about the "Swedish" syndicate.

 

Why?

 

Because their AC45 peformance has been less than stellar.

 

Hutch yells too much and hovers at the edge of meltdown (cf TNZ, Race 7, Valencia).

 

There are continuing doubts about Juan.

 

Right now, the focus is on OR and the obvious LVC winner - TNZ.

So, you can be certain PC was not in Austria for alpine skiing or yodelling.

 

 

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would be cool if artemis racing send two ac45 on the circuit!

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would be cool if artemis racing send two ac45 on the circuit!

 

 

Yes, it could be cool.

 

But it does not have much to do with winning the America's Cup.

Because the AC45 is a scaled-down version of the AC72 everyone assumes there is a high level of what psychologists used to call "transfer of training."

 

Some AC45 racing competence will transfer tothe AC72.

 

But there is lots of loose variance.

 

And you will notice really determined syndicates (eg. TNZ) make their appearance at the AC45 world circus.

 

But spend most of their energy and time working on the main event.

 

We all make our own beds.

 

And live with the consequences.

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^ ETNZ shipping their AC45 all the way to NZ, then to Italy, suggests they see high value in using it. That they sent DB & co to Singapore to get more time in on the X40 suggests similar benefits to be gained even there.

 

Yes, I too hope Artemis puts both on the racing circuit. TH could use a little hot competition. Roman Hagara, I assume that's China Team Hagara's brother?

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would be cool if artemis racing send two ac45 on the circuit!

 

 

Yes, it could be cool.

 

But it does not have much to do with winning the America's Cup.

Because the AC45 is a scaled-down version of the AC72 everyone assumes there is a high level of what psychologists used to call "transfer of training."

 

 

Disagree - any team intending to do two boat AC72 testing will need two well seasoned 11 man crews, plus back-ups.

 

The sooner you line up the resources, the sooner they operate as a team.

 

This is why OR have 4 AC45's.

 

 

 

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Disagree - any team intending to do two boat AC72 testing will need two well seasoned 11 man crews, plus back-ups.

 

The sooner you line up the resources, the sooner they operate as a team.

 

This is why OR have 4 AC45's.

 

This connects a lot of dots for me concerning 4 boat testing.

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This is why OR have 4 AC45's.

My speculation: two for racing and practice, the other two have major foil case, rig and wing step mods and will never race.

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This is why OR have 4 AC45's.

My speculation: two for racing and practice, the other two have major foil case, rig and wing step mods and will never race.

 

 

I think this also but people much smarter than me say foil and wing mods don't automaticly scale up.

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Yes, they have another AC45 coming and could be looking to add sailors. Maybe even to compete with TH. And to answer your question, No those two guys have not been on the Artemis team so far.

 

With this in mind has anyone seen any signs of AC 45 construction? Artemis will have to get in line behind LR wont they anyway? If LR is really serious shouldn't they have one shortly?

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Yes, they have another AC45 coming and could be looking to add sailors. Maybe even to compete with TH. And to answer your question, No those two guys have not been on the Artemis team so far.

 

With this in mind has anyone seen any signs of AC 45 construction? Artemis will have to get in line behind LR wont they anyway? If LR is really serious shouldn't they have one shortly?

 

I think it depends on when they were ordered. If I recall correctly, Artemis has had their 45 on order first, but I'm sure Kiwi porta potty will correct me if I'm wrong smile.gif

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This is why OR have 4 AC45's.

My speculation: two for racing and practice, the other two have major foil case, rig and wing step mods and will never race.

 

And either way you develop 20 crew. They will race to assess the changes.

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And either way you develop 20 crew. They will race to assess the changes.

Agreed.

 

I've always admired OR's "more is better approach" to everything -- very American. I hope they keep it up. Twenty sailors are always better than eleven, eh? Bigger numbers assures a tight, coordinated sailing team.

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I've always admired OR's "more is better approach" to everything -- very American. I hope they keep it up. Twenty sailors are always better than eleven, eh? Bigger numbers assures a tight, coordinated sailing team.

 

Chuckling sounds.

 

Throats clearing.

 

Murmuring and knowing looks at the back of the crowd.

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And either way you develop 20 crew. They will race to assess the changes.

Agreed.

 

I've always admired OR's "more is better approach" to everything -- very American. I hope they keep it up. Twenty sailors are always better than eleven, eh? Bigger numbers assures a tight, coordinated sailing team.

 

 

why yes it is :) RE: AC 33

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^ ETNZ shipping their AC45 all the way to NZ, then to Italy, suggests they see high value in using it. That they sent DB & co to Singapore to get more time in on the X40 suggests similar benefits to be gained even there.

 

Yes, I too hope Artemis puts both on the racing circuit. TH could use a little hot competition. Roman Hagara, I assume that's China Team Hagara's brother?

 

Yes. Roman and Andreas are brothers.

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let me know if you have any news if roman hagara and hans peter steinacher join artemis! i think it would be great for the ac to have the two times tornado olympic gold medalist involved! thanks!

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It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that the handle-ability of this seriously over-powered boat which is under-crewed on an extremely short course in the windiest venue in the world - you multiply all that together and you have a s---fight on your hands.

 

S..l..o..w..l..y dawning on the former Stache ..

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^ PC is obviously not the money (the class-act billionaire behind him is) but: I'm guessing he is at least the leader of campaigns that GD is. PC is highly experienced and absolutely driven to win.

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^ PC is obviously not the money (the class-act billionaire behind him is) but: I'm guessing he is at least the leader of campaigns that GD is. PC is highly experienced and absolutely driven to win.

 

 

We know alot about PC here in the Bay Area, some of us have even sailed against him. However, I was told that PC had a lot of his own money in this venture and am looking for conformation ya or nay.

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I could believe PC has a lot at stake, perhaps bonus-wise on how far Artemis reaches.

 

But he can't possibly be in anywhere the same league as what TT is, the difference must be many orders of magnitude. He drives an older Ferrari and the modest Sausalito-side house he sold recently went for a few million, not tens of millions.

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Yes, they have another AC45 coming and could be looking to add sailors. Maybe even to compete with TH. And to answer your question, No those two guys have not been on the Artemis team so far.

 

With this in mind has anyone seen any signs of AC 45 construction? Artemis will have to get in line behind LR wont they anyway? If LR is really serious shouldn't they have one shortly?

 

Read today that Artemis now has their second AC45.

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PC has not invested a single USD/EUR/SEK into Artemis. TT is bankrolling the whole enchilada...

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There are continuing doubts about Juan.

 

 

i saw Juan K in Paris 2 weeks ago late at night in a Hotel talking with 2 guys about sailing and ship design. I was not that impressed.

 

Basically he designed a boat for Beneteau (first 30) that wassaid to be a cruise racer but teh said boat is crap at racing and crap at cruising... He seems to be the kind of guys that never doubt of himself, doesn recognise his mistakes or doesn't take into account others point of view. Not sure it is the right behaviour to lead a AC design team.

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Nice interview at CupInfo

http://www.cupinfo.c...-artemis-01.php

--

You name it, Sean Clarkson has probably sailed it. Clarkson has been hard at it in some of the toughest yacht racing competition in the world: winning the Whitbread on New Zealand Endeavour; sailing as bowman on New Zealand's Soling entry in the 1996 Olympic Games; TP52 World Champion with Quantum Racing; and five America's Cup challenges from 1992 to 2007, with New Zealand, Tag Heuer, AmericaOne, Luna Rossa, and BMW Oracle Racing.

 

So Clarkson knows the America’s Cup, but this America’s Cup? Well, not every so-called “Flintstone” is stuck in Bedrock. Clarkson, a longtime Quantum Racing crew member, emphatically made the transition to multihulls with his TP52 skipper Terry Hutchinson and jib trimmer Morgan Trubovich. After such a lengthy history racing monohulls, moving into the world of multihulls has not been as difficult as one might think -- excepting a few moments onboard the Extreme 40 the team raced last year.

 

Contd

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at ac.com

--

 

 

King Marine busy building the Artemis AC72

Posted on 11 January 2012

 

[source: King Marine] In early December, King Marine relocated a portion of its work force to the Artemis Racing operations base, near Gothenburg, Sweden, to begin the construction of the team’s AC72 catamaran designed by Juan Kouyoumidjian. Artemis Racing, Challenger of Record for the 34th America’s Cup, represents the Royal Swedish Yacht Club / Kungliga Svenska Segel Sällskapet (KSSS).

 

“We arrived a week ago from Sweden to check on the operations, test the new oven, coordinate logistics and explain the quality standards and storage system of King Marine to the local team of builders,” said Gabriel Mariani, CEO of King Marine.

 

A group of 50 specialists from King Marine & King Composite (led by Pablo Santarsiero and Guillermo Ponzinibbio respectively), together with strategic partners Sinergìa Racing Group, will build the AC72 in three different locations: Valencia, Cartagena and Sweden.

 

Everything is going according to schedule under the direction of Naval Architect James Muller who has worked with King Marine on the build of the TP52 Azzurra 2011 and the modification of Orma 60 for Artemis Racing.

 

contd

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Yes, they have another AC45 coming and could be looking to add sailors. Maybe even to compete with TH. And to answer your question, No those two guys have not been on the Artemis team so far.

 

With this in mind has anyone seen any signs of AC 45 construction? Artemis will have to get in line behind LR wont they anyway? If LR is really serious shouldn't they have one shortly?

 

Read today that Artemis now has their second AC45.

Fresh photo from Sagunto, looks like their first AC45 but it's hard to say for certain

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=9247345&l=4ed61eaf5e&id=167319026086

 

378910_10150479079986087_167319026086_9247345_469208263_n.jpg

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Yes, they have another AC45 coming and could be looking to add sailors. Maybe even to compete with TH. And to answer your question, No those two guys have not been on the Artemis team so far.

 

With this in mind has anyone seen any signs of AC 45 construction? Artemis will have to get in line behind LR wont they anyway? If LR is really serious shouldn't they have one shortly?

 

Read today that Artemis now has their second AC45.

Fresh photo from Sagunto, looks like their first AC45 but it's hard to say for certain

 

https://www.facebook...id=167319026086

 

Yea PC and Artemis.

Any insight into second boat helm?

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^^ The OP of this thread could be suggestive of an additional helm?

 

On the King Marine article above, RG at Sail World includes this in his comments,

--

The soonest an AC72 can be launched is July 2012. As cost reduction measure of the current edition of the America's Cup Protocol, they can be sailed for just 30 days in 2012. At least four other teams, of the ten entered in the America's Cup World Series, are expected to build AC72 yachts for the America's Cup Regatta, and most if not all are expected to build the maximum two each.

--

 

At least four others, besides Artemis, and two boats each? Interesting he has that opinion this early.

 

RG, in case you see this: would have posted a link but already closed that page. On Safari using an iPhone, but also using FF under Vista, the SW site has been near-crippling since an apparent format change that happened seemingly around the new year?

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Stingray, no link in this page.

 

RG, since a few weeks, the sail-world page is blocking my chrome

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Simply not-to-be-missed PC interview on VS

 

I think we can safely assume he is no longer on GD's Christmas card list. Estar's spying scenario is off the agenda if PC's interpretation is correct.

 

Sounds like AR was squared off on the BAR announcement and has no intention to protest as (I think again) Estar was suggesting.

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"Grant Dalton hasn’t been speaking about that one as much as he’s speaking about the ones that go his way. It’s a big knock against them and they can’t sail the two boats against each other."

 

Did Dalton F this one up? PC is making a lot sense though.

Good to see Santi Lange helming the 2nd AC45.

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excellent interview by VS...Pierre really went beyond the call of duty and ASKED all the hard questions

Cayard defended himself quite nicely

if i was a jury member i would have sided with him

 

that is until and ONLY until i hear the other side.

come on Grant, show us your cards

 

very interesting for sure

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Simply not-to-be-missed PC interview on VS

 

I think we can safely assume he is no longer on GD's Christmas card list. Estar's spying scenario is off the agenda if PC's interpretation is correct.

 

Sounds like AR was squared off on the BAR announcement and has no intention to protest as (I think again) Estar was suggesting.

 

 

Yes, I have taken PC off my Christmas card list :)

 

He is taking sides here and being hard on GD but easy on RC.

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Simply not-to-be-missed PC interview on VS

 

I think we can safely assume he is no longer on GD's Christmas card list. Estar's spying scenario is off the agenda if PC's interpretation is correct.

 

Sounds like AR was squared off on the BAR announcement and has no intention to protest as (I think again) Estar was suggesting.

 

 

Yes, I have taken PC off my Christmas card list :)

 

He is taking sides here and being hard on GD but easy on RC.

 

Not surprising really when he sees ba as a big plus for the 'russ and paul world series of the world show' and gd as someone who wouldn't give it the time of day if he didn't have to..

.

for sure rc and pc had dicussed ba's third oracle entry and pc has decided to give them a pass, and concentrate on using his cor role to put the boot into dalton and luna rossa...

I wouldn't have expected it any other way but it doesn't make any less pathetic....

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"Grant Dalton hasn't been speaking about that one as much as he's speaking about the ones that go his way. It's a big knock against them and they can't sail the two boats against each other."

 

Did Dalton F this one up? PC is making a lot sense though.

Good to see Santi Lange helming the 2nd AC45.

What's to worry about? Who has seen the ETNZ/LR pact? All they need is a written agreement to co-operate on design, leave construction to a 3rd party contractor and not to test or race against each other. That complies 100%. Then they can go out and test or race against each other informally/by accident because they have a contractual agreement not to test or race against each other. Simple. The Attorney's Cup. Ha, ha.

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Cayard sure comes off like the cat that ate the canary in the Vsail interview. He's been so focused on stopping ETNZ from training with a team that, so far is just on paper (Luna Rosa) that he seems to forget that there really isn't much time to 2 boat test anyway.

 

I think GD has had PC twisting in his shorts the last few months with the LR collaboration. It was interesting how detailed GD was in going into how close ETNZ and LR were going to trade info back and forth and train side by side. That was the bait, and Cayard took it. Dalton knew all along it wasn't possible to get that close to another challenger and trade secrets. He only wanted the money so he could build his 2nd boat. He doen't need to line up against the italians, he need to line up ETNZ A and ETNZ B.

PC really needs to settle down and focus on finding a solution to TH and Juan K lack of multihull experience. He seems to be avoiding that decision, which unfortunately, the International Jury can't make for him.

 

Cayard is pretty famous for making some poor decisions in the begining of his Cup campaigns that he is never able to recover from. I mean, really. He must have a budget close to OR, but look at the B grade talent he has locked up compared to OR. Why doesn't his team look and feel more like OR than an antiquated V5 sailing and design team? He has one multihull guy in Santiago Lange.

 

I have to say, GD get his money's worth.

 

I bet Cayard tried to sign Morelli & Melvin in the begining of this cycleand they said no way due to the fact that Cayard had picked TH as Skipper and Director of Sailing Operations. it was flawed from the beginning.

 

Cayards ego is too big to admit a mistake and fire one of his top picks.

 

And why no protest against the 3rd OR boat in the world series? BAR is really OR. Right?

 

 

 

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Cayard sure comes off like the cat that ate the canary in the Vsail interview. He's been so focused on stopping ETNZ from training with a team that, so far is just on paper (Luna Rosa) that he seems to forget that there really isn't much time to 2 boat test anyway.

 

 

 

Remember when the US was forced to bomb North Vietnam "back to the stone age" for the purpose of "saving" democracy.

 

Now, the AC must practice censorship because what was once sport is now a buisiness.

 

In Cayard's words:

"If you have people walking around the dock, going up to people that want to sponsor events, telling them a bunch of bad information with the aim to discourage them from sponsoring an AC World Series event, then my answer is yes, unfortunately, we need to censor them"

 

As usual, the ends (saving the ACWS business) justify the means (censorship)

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In Cayard's words:

".. with the aim to discourage them from sponsoring an AC World Series event.."

It brings up the question of Why whoever it was, may be trying to basically sabotage, 'bomb into the stone age' the world they occupy. To kill as many enemies as possible, perhaps? The ends justify the means?

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Simply not-to-be-missed PC interview on VS

Nice one, thanks.

 

VSail.info: What about the modified Orma60 trimaran you have. What’s the current situation?

Paul Cayard: We are not sure whether it’s going to sail again. It was good for us last year but it’s still in working progress. We don’t have a schedule to sail that again.

 

VSail.info: I might be wrong but I thought you planned to step a wing on that trimaran. Is that correct?

Paul Cayard: It’s a possibility but we don’t have any schedule for when it’s going to happen.

Yikes. The outcome of JuanK's failed trimaran science project might explain PC's mood, eh?

 

What's Plan B?

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In Cayard's words:

".. with the aim to discourage them from sponsoring an AC World Series event.."

It brings up the question of Why whoever it was, may be trying to basically sabotage, 'bomb into the stone age' the world they occupy. To kill as many enemies as possible, perhaps? The ends justify the means?

Hey man people will talk. What's your problem? If it's a good product people talk good stuff and if it's not... well that's capitalism. You will just find an AC "Spring" emerges on social media. You just can't control like this any longer.

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Simply not-to-be-missed PC interview on VS

Nice one, thanks.

 

VSail.info: What about the modified Orma60 trimaran you have. What’s the current situation?

Paul Cayard: We are not sure whether it’s going to sail again. It was good for us last year but it’s still in working progress. We don’t have a schedule to sail that again.

 

VSail.info: I might be wrong but I thought you planned to step a wing on that trimaran. Is that correct?

Paul Cayard: It’s a possibility but we don’t have any schedule for when it’s going to happen.

Yikes. The outcome of JuanK's failed trimaran science project might explain PC's mood, eh?

 

What's Plan B?

Yep, could be it all went badly. He doesn't say it but he could also have surrogate issues to worry about somehow?

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In Cayard's words:

".. with the aim to discourage them from sponsoring an AC World Series event.."

It brings up the question of Why whoever it was, may be trying to basically sabotage, 'bomb into the stone age' the world they occupy. To kill as many enemies as possible, perhaps? The ends justify the means?

Hey man people will talk. What's your problem? If it's a good product people talk good stuff and if it's not... well that's capitalism. You will just find an AC "Spring" emerges on social media. You just can't control like this any longer.

Agree some of that but the 'business' of sponsoring AC events belongs w the organizers, right?

 

It's a little short on detail and so maybe not worth too much speculation; curious he got that specific though.

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so what?

GD might get couple of fines...for speaking up against big brother

and IJ

and everyone he darn pleases

big freaking deal

 

sounds like the big NFL, NBA and the boys that don't let Cuban and the team owners say a darn thing....but guess what?

they still do, its great media opportunity...and one way to beef up the non profit contributions.

 

and believe me...PC nor RC nor Ellison have the balls to kick TNZ out of the next Cup

why? because they would have NO Cup if they did

 

:lol:

 

karma is a bitch

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I think that, since what is at stake is money, the relevant penalty is an appropriate fine, nothing else.

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Another meaningful PC interview, this time with FV's Michele Tognozzi - except it's all in Italian, including the Skype original.

And of course, my selected excerpt had to be this:

 

The fact of the 72, with a wing of 40 meters, it might have been modified, you could do differently. As they say, being able to speak with hindsight everything is always perfect ... if we had a boat of 60 feet or 45 feet, would have been different and we would have more competitors. That's for sure. But we are where we are and I am still convinced that the Cup Final, which has always been only between two boats, will be a great event. To suffer is the Louis Vuitton Cup, instead of 10 or 11 teams will have only three. This is unfortunate, of course, but for those who will watch the finale, the show will be there.

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Another meaningful PC interview, this time with FV's Michele Tognozzi - except it's all in Italian, including the Skype original.

And of course, my selected excerpt had to be this:

 

The fact of the 72, with a wing of 40 meters, it might have been modified, you could do differently. As they say, being able to speak with hindsight everything is always perfect ... if we had a boat of 60 feet or 45 feet, would have been different and we would have more competitors. That's for sure. But we are where we are and I am still convinced that the Cup Final, which has always been only between two boats, will be a great event. To suffer is the Louis Vuitton Cup, instead of 10 or 11 teams will have only three. This is unfortunate, of course, but for those who will watch the finale, the show will be there.

 

 

The brilliance of hind-sight, as PC says. Obviously, scaling back down to 60' COULD cost a lot less. But why do I tend to think that Oracle, Artemis, and ETNZ would be spending nearly the same amount regardless of the boat size? For those teams, it is spend as much as you CAN. For the others, it would be spend as much as you NEED. So, yeah, there could very well be more teams that could afford to go the whole way with 60' boats. How would the excitement be, the spectacle? Would the event be even remotely capable of calling itself the ultimate in sailing with a limit to that length? Questionable, I would say. I would say the 72s, combined with the shortened course up close to shore, is a pretty damned exciting combination. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure 60s would be great, too, but these 72s will be awesome.

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The brilliance of hind-sight, as PC says. Obviously, scaling back down to 60' COULD cost a lot less. But why do I tend to think that Oracle, Artemis, and ETNZ would be spending nearly the same amount regardless of the boat size? For those teams, it is spend as much as you CAN. For the others, it would be spend as much as you NEED. So, yeah, there could very well be more teams that could afford to go the whole way with 60' boats. How would the excitement be, the spectacle? Would the event be even remotely capable of calling itself the ultimate in sailing with a limit to that length? Questionable, I would say. I would say the 72s, combined with the shortened course up close to shore, is a pretty damned exciting combination. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure 60s would be great, too, but these 72s will be awesome.

 

Not arguing with that - except in another part of the interview Paul admits he's concerned about taming the beast both logistically and while racing: it could be too awesome.

 

That is why I still believe 72' boats - but a bit narrower and with the original, 30m fresh wind rig - would have been ideal.

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Another meaningful PC interview, this time with FV's Michele Tognozzi - except it's all in Italian, including the Skype original.

And of course, my selected excerpt had to be this:

 

The fact of the 72, with a wing of 40 meters, it might have been modified, you could do differently. As they say, being able to speak with hindsight everything is always perfect ... if we had a boat of 60 feet or 45 feet, would have been different and we would have more competitors. That's for sure. But we are where we are and I am still convinced that the Cup Final, which has always been only between two boats, will be a great event. To suffer is the Louis Vuitton Cup, instead of 10 or 11 teams will have only three. This is unfortunate, of course, but for those who will watch the finale, the show will be there.

 

 

The brilliance of hind-sight, as PC says. Obviously, scaling back down to 60' COULD cost a lot less. But why do I tend to think that Oracle, Artemis, and ETNZ would be spending nearly the same amount regardless of the boat size? For those teams, it is spend as much as you CAN. For the others, it would be spend as much as you NEED. So, yeah, there could very well be more teams that could afford to go the whole way with 60' boats. How would the excitement be, the spectacle? Would the event be even remotely capable of calling itself the ultimate in sailing with a limit to that length? Questionable, I would say. I would say the 72s, combined with the shortened course up close to shore, is a pretty damned exciting combination. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure 60s would be great, too, but these 72s will be awesome.

 

 

The casual observer woiuldn't be ble to tell the difference in lengths unless side by side. Same thrills for the buck at 60'

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The casual observer woiuldn't be ble to tell the difference in lengths unless side by side. Same thrills for the buck at 60'

 

 

Maybe? I don't know.

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There is a MOD70 circuit.

If you want the AC to be the pinnacle of sailing, you can't sail with 60s.

The first duty of GGYC is to defend the Cup. The second interest of Larry is to make a great spectacle.

But it's the AC.

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+1000

 

The most interesting part of the interview is that Artemis, the Challenger of Record, is now also saying there will only be 3 Challengers in the CSS and LVC. He obviously doesn't rate Greencomm or he knows something. They are in the same neck of the woods.

 

So Seuss and Groucho, please feel free to give Cayard the same shit that you have been giving Dalts. You know, the stuff about affecting the smaller teams ability to get sponsors, how they only want a few challengers etc etc ad nauseum.

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+1000

 

The most interesting part of the interview is that Artemis, the Challenger of Record, is now also saying there will only be 3 Challengers in the CSS and LVC.

 

So Seuss and Groucho, please feel free to give Cayard the same shit that you have been giving Dalts. You know, the stuff about affecting the smaller teams ability to get sponsors, how they only want a few challengers etc etc ad nauseum.

 

Dalton has been undermining the event ever since he "didn't enter", didn't want to use the website, didn't like the idea of having to use cranes, didn't want ACEA to ship his shit to Cascais, wouldn't buy a second AC 45 in a million years (yet that's the first thing LR did), shot his mouth off in SD, etc. etc.

 

Just a slight difference, but your preference is that TNZ shouldn't even be pursuing the AC, so why so defensive ?

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The most interesting part of the interview

to you, apparently

 

is that Artemis, the Challenger of Record, is now also saying there will only be 3 Challengers in the CSS and LVC.

Responding to a pointed question, from FV, whom he was trying hard to humor

 

He obviously doesn't rate Greencomm or he knows something. They are in the same neck of the woods.

Explain to me: Why would de Leo tell Cayard anything at all?

 

So Seuss and Groucho, please feel free to give Cayard the same shit that you have been giving Dalts. You know, the stuff about affecting the smaller teams ability to get sponsors, how they only want a few challengers etc etc ad nauseum.

PC said nothing of the kind and you would know it if you had read it properly.

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The most interesting part of the interview

to you, apparently

 

is that Artemis, the Challenger of Record, is now also saying there will only be 3 Challengers in the CSS and LVC.

Responding to a pointed question, from FV, whom he was trying hard to humor

 

He obviously doesn't rate Greencomm or he knows something. They are in the same neck of the woods.

Explain to me: Why would de Leo tell Cayard anything at all?

 

 

 

Stingray your spin is getting pathetic

 

'Responding to a pointed question, from FV, whom he was trying hard to humor' :lol::lol:

 

Give us a break. Cayard was not humouring FV, he was answering their question honestly.

 

To suffer is the Louis Vuitton Cup, instead of 10 or 11 teams will have only three. This is unfortunate, of course, but for those who will watch the finale, the show will be there.

 

not 'may' or 'possibly' but 'will' That is emphatic.

 

I stand by my statement that Cayard knows something about the number of teams that will race in the LVC. I never at any point mentioned de Leo but Greencomm is the only other team that have made positive noises about building an AC72 for AC34 and Cayard hasn't included them in his figure of 3 challengers.

 

Cayard very much talks down the Louis Vuitton Cup. I wonder how Bruno feels about that.

 

In the space of a couple of weeks we have had Iain Murray, before he was censured/censored by his bosses, ACEA, and now Cayard confirming Dalts predictions that there will only be 3 challengers.

 

The only people that don't seem to want to admit it are the Defenders.

 

By the way if you had read my post correctly you would have known that my comments to Seuss and Groucho were about what thet have said in their posts about Dalts and not what Cayard has said.

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The most interesting part of the interview

to you, apparently

 

is that Artemis, the Challenger of Record, is now also saying there will only be 3 Challengers in the CSS and LVC.

Responding to a pointed question, from FV, whom he was trying hard to humor

 

He obviously doesn't rate Greencomm or he knows something. They are in the same neck of the woods.

Explain to me: Why would de Leo tell Cayard anything at all?

 

So Seuss and Groucho, please feel free to give Cayard the same shit that you have been giving Dalts. You know, the stuff about affecting the smaller teams ability to get sponsors, how they only want a few challengers etc etc ad nauseum.

PC said nothing of the kind and you would know it if you had read it properly.

 

You're such a sorry excuse for an OR apologist it wouldn't be fair to take apart your childishly simplistic attempts at explaining away the shortcomings of Cayard's interview. No contest...

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^ PC very clearly pointed out that others may yet enter, but also correctly noted that time until June is running out.

 

Again, if some teams are leaving their Go decision until that time, well then clearly they have not yet decided. We can speculate if any more will be in the LVC but we can't know, so far.

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We can speculate if any more will be in the LVC but we can't know, so far.

 

An honest question - Has LV completely committed to sponsoring the CSS? I sort of remember that they had, but with a caveat/backdoor about a minimum number of entries. Anyone know the details? They have been very silent. They have been excellent sponsors/patrons for the sport and I hope ACEA has kept them happy.

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^ We don't know any of the proprietary business detail contracts, for any of the sponsors be they team or AC level. Bruno has remarked in the past that he was strongly hoping for 6 teams; that's about the closest thing we have on LV 'expectations.'

 

They do get mileage from the ACWS too, and have fancy events planned for in Naples, Venice, and I would guess beyond.

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^ We don't know any of the proprietary business detail contracts, for any of the sponsors be they team or AC level. Bruno has remarked in the past that he was strongly hoping for 6 teams; that's about the closest thing we have on LV 'expectations.'

 

They do get mileage from the ACWS too, and have fancy events planned for in Naples, Venice, and I would guess beyond.

 

 

Good, glad to hear they are still on-board. They are good patrons in addition to being marketing folks.

 

Someone at ACEA should get them involved in helping (re)build a positive aura around around the AC. ACEA have let the story get away from them - there is more media/discussion focus on financial real estate deals and team squabbling - and not enough on the 'sailing aesthetic' and personalities and technology. The need to get out in front and lead the story in a richer direction, rather than just continuing doing videos of cats on one hull with music - and LV could certainly give them advice on how to do that.

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^ Agreed, and once the ACEA/SF deal gets finalized in whatever form, and Naples approaches, hopefully the LV flavor will start to have greater effect. Prada may well be an increasing factor too in the 'shaping' of the aesthetics.

 

Back to Artemis, anything else informative/fun in this TD$ interview?

--

http://www.thedailysail.com/inshore/12/61247/1/terry-hutchinson-artemis-racing-interview#.T0ae7gsaMcM.facebook

 

In Valencia the Artemis Racing sailing team has been busy this month with a two week long training session lining up their newly acquired second AC45 with last year’s boat - team skipper Terry Hutchinson helming one and Tornado double bronze medallist Santiago Lange the other. With precious little time to train on the AC45s last year before they launched straight into the three regatta America’s Cup World Series events in Cascais, Plymouth and San Diego, teams have been taking this period as an opportunity to get some valuable time in on their wingsail one design catamarans prior to this year’s first America’s Cup World Series event in Naples in April. While they now have two AC45s, according to Terry Hutchinson, they won’t race two on the ACWS until San Francisco later in the season. “There is enough going on at home and we have to continue to do that well. And it is expensive.” Artemis Racing also competed on the Extreme Sailing Series last year, but due to their Cup commitments Hutchinson is uncertain if they will be able to make any of the events in 2012. He was looking forward to Cardiff... “I did the J/24 Worlds in Abersoch once! The Extreme 40 was a really great thing for us and that whole series – I take my hat off to Mark [Turner] and what they have done.” The team’s principle focus at the moment is on their new AC72. The new wing sail catamaran has been created by Juan K and his largely Argentinean design team along with some heavy hitters such as former Team New Zealand design head Tom Schnackenberg, Andrea Ivaldi and Paul Bieker on structures, Steve Calder on sail design plus Brits Adam May and Owen Modral and a considerable number of specialists

...

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^ We don't know any of the proprietary business detail contracts, for any of the sponsors be they team or AC level. Bruno has remarked in the past that he was strongly hoping for 6 teams; that's about the closest thing we have on LV 'expectations.'

 

They do get mileage from the ACWS too, and have fancy events planned for in Naples, Venice, and I would guess beyond.

 

 

Good, glad to hear they are still on-board. They are good patrons in addition to being marketing folks.

 

Someone at ACEA should get them involved in helping (re)build a positive aura around around the AC. ACEA have let the story get away from them - there is more media/discussion focus on financial real estate deals and team squabbling - and not enough on the 'sailing aesthetic' and personalities and technology. The need to get out in front and lead the story in a richer direction, rather than just continuing doing videos of cats on one hull with music - and LV could certainly give them advice on how to do that.

 

You are, again, correct about what ACEA should be doing.

 

However, with zero background in the sport, Richard Worth doesn't have a clue about how to tell the story you suggest. He's more interested in issuing press releases about the latest chef.

 

They have let this story wander, because they lost the plot, if they ever even had it. Worth is now just being defensive when making his comments, the richest of all is that the story has been told because there are three quality challengers, and the rest really don't matter. Worth has made the classic mistake of letting others define his story.

 

The problem is there just aren't many good storytellers inside ACEA, or the teams for that matter. The current teams, other than ETNZ, have no real reason to be out telling stories about the personalities on the teams, or the cool technology they will use. They are all funded already, so they don't need the burden of the media program to constantly tell an engaging story. Money spent on stuff like that really doesn't help to win the Cup, at least not directly.

 

Worth made the story of ACEA how his advancement in TV technology was going to revolutionize the sport. In the long run, the work that Stan Honey has done will probably (hopefully) trickle down to other aspects of the sport, if for nothing else than being used for starts. But it really isn't revolutionizing the sport. It might, if the tide turns, revolutionize some aspects of the broadcasting of the sport, but it's not revolutionizing the sport.

 

Interestingly, if you listen to Stan do an interview about the technology, he pretty much always ends it with something like "well, this technology is great, but I keep asking 'what's the story'?" Having sailed with Roy Disney 10's of thousands of miles, and been a very close friend of his, I'd wager Stan knows more about storytelling, especially as it relates to sailing, than Worth could ever possibility hope to know.

 

There have been plenty of people saying what ACEA should do. Probably the first thing Worth should do is listen to the market. He ought to start with you.

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By the way if you had read my post correctly you would have known that my comments to Seuss and Groucho were about what thet have said in their posts about Dalts and not what Cayard has said.

 

LOVE the level of intellect, there. I have consistently been positive about the cup, how I am excited about it, critical where I believe criticism is valid (lack of promotion, lack of set schedule, most notable), but you drop the silly names. Whatever.

 

Regarding your point. Forgive me if I don't instantly jump on Cayard for a single remark, following those of Murray and others, that there may be only three challengers, as opposed to Daltons non-stop crap, as SWS pointed out. Cayard has consistently supported the direction of the cup, as you haters have constantly pointed out. Only an ass would equate the two.

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^ PC very clearly pointed out that others may yet enter, but also correctly noted that time until June is running out.

 

Again, if some teams are leaving their Go decision until that time, well then clearly they have not yet decided. We can speculate if any more will be in the LVC but we can't know, so far.

 

I think it would be safe to say, knowing how Bruno Peyron works, that if they had thrown in the towel on AC34, that they would announce it and officially reformulate their effort as interim competition in the ACWS with hard plans for AC35. The fact Energy has not thrown in the towel, to me, would seem to indicate they still feel they have a good shot at making it. In many ways, they sound a lot like ETNZ early last year.

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^ Right. Of the ten teams in the ACWS only BAR has precluded building a 72. That the 9 remaining teams are not sharing details of their prospects with us, or probably with GD as he himself has already admitted, precludes anyone from making declarative In or Out statements until the teams themselves announce them.

 

So far 4 of 9 have begun building, and several people who should have a general feel of it suggest that at least 1 and maybe 3 more will also go into Build. That would put us at 5 to 7 of the 9. Me, I still like 6 but we could have to guess until June before we'll know the ultimate AC72s count aimed at early 2013 launch dates.

 

I don't read where PC said anything at all to the contrary, even if others thought they did.

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Saw this from someone with a vested interest in the event. I think he is sitting back and laughing;

post-24261-090283000 1330105878_thumb.jpg

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^ PC very clearly pointed out that others may yet enter, but also correctly noted that time until June is running out.

 

Again, if some teams are leaving their Go decision until that time, well then clearly they have not yet decided. We can speculate if any more will be in the LVC but we can't know, so far.

 

I think it would be safe to say, knowing how Bruno Peyron works, that if they had thrown in the towel on AC34, that they would announce it and officially reformulate their effort as interim competition in the ACWS with hard plans for AC35. The fact Energy has not thrown in the towel, to me, would seem to indicate they still feel they have a good shot at making it. In many ways, they sound a lot like ETNZ early last year.

 

Without all the bitching about the event and constantly playing the pity card that they're broke.

 

Gotta love Loick's attitude and his interviews, and would love to see him funded for at least one 72 if not two.

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^ PC very clearly pointed out that others may yet enter, but also correctly noted that time until June is running out.

 

Again, if some teams are leaving their Go decision until that time, well then clearly they have not yet decided. We can speculate if any more will be in the LVC but we can't know, so far.

 

I think it would be safe to say, knowing how Bruno Peyron works, that if they had thrown in the towel on AC34, that they would announce it and officially reformulate their effort as interim competition in the ACWS with hard plans for AC35. The fact Energy has not thrown in the towel, to me, would seem to indicate they still feel they have a good shot at making it. In many ways, they sound a lot like ETNZ early last year.

 

Without all the bitching about the event and constantly playing the pity card that they're broke.

 

Gotta love Loick's attitude and his interviews, and would love to see him funded for at least one 72 if not two.

 

^Ditto!

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At least one of the teams were more than half-way to full funding (build 72' and race in the LV) late January and signing up sailors a couple of weeks ago. With 3 months to go to entry fee deadline and another few months for build start deadline it is too early to write off this team (and a few others I suspect). I can't reveal which team I am talking about but it ain't China, the other French or the Finn team. The pessimists around here will have become quite by 2013 when we'll see - yes we will actually be able to see it wherever we are - the greatest sail boat race ever I predict. Just my 2 cents /vf

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