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sarah0809

Artemis?

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^^ Barnyb, looks like one of your reluctant ETNZ benefactors on the right - correct?

 

 

Technically yes, but it was the previous government that made the promise, that dickhead in the photo just agreed to honour it.

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i shore wish the trolls on both sides would go to the kiwi bash thred or even better go on twitta or faecebooke

 

its like a junier plaground heir ecxept theirs no food fites

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i don't see why they wouldn't line up against LR today.

 

Yes they need to practice, yes they need to "learn" the boat more etc etc etc

 

way i see it, time on the water is time on the water. what's the worse that can happen? finish more than 5 mins behind and not get a point ala LR?

 

ya so, they don't push it 100% and if needed stay clear of LR...

 

I personally would love to see then on the race course today. would send message out that they're coming soon, yes, yes, yes... a little late but still.

 

would be a hell of a lot more interesting to watch than any of the races so far....

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i don't see why they wouldn't line up against LR today.

 

Yes they need to practice, yes they need to "learn" the boat more etc etc etc

 

way i see it, time on the water is time on the water. what's the worse that can happen? finish more than 5 mins behind and not get a point ala LR?

 

ya so, they don't push it 100% and if needed stay clear of LR...

 

I personally would love to see then on the race course today. would send message out that they're coming soon, yes, yes, yes... a little late but still.

 

would be a hell of a lot more interesting to watch than any of the races so far....

 

+1 I was just gonna post that...

 

Unless it's 15+kts, I'd say go for it! At least do the entry-prestart- first reach and bear away.

Shit, if all goes well they could end their second day with a RR point. How cool would that be!!

 

You're my boy Blue!!!

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Shit, if all goes well they could end their second day with a RR point. How cool would that be!!

 

It would be fantastic to have them competing on the racecourse today but I don't think they already have any possibility to win. It's too early and they need some time to learn and optimize the new boat and feel confident again. But they have the right positive attitude (Outteridge smile says so) and I think they will be soon very competitive.

I'm Italian and of course I root for LR but I wish all the best to AR crew and expecially to PC, who is still loved in Italy from the old days of the unforgettable campaign of the Moro di Venezia back in 1992. BTW, was that the last RC defeat in AC/LVC?

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^ I'd like to see them race too but might be more prudent to practice that bear away a little before they do it in race mode. Yesterdays straight line stuff and hard round up at the end of the video was awesome but I believe they will want to practice a few more of the downwind turns before getting in race mode. BRAVO AR!! Nice comeback

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^^

Thanks K38BoB

Its always nice to see his happy face.

Cheers

You're welcome. That link has even more smiles. Its been cool to see that club extend hospitality to the team and families. Artemis responds in kind with this support. Cheers!

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Here's the thing for you guys that keep spouting off about how AR should have pulled the plug, that they are a hazard to the other teams, blah blah blah blah . . . .

 

The reason many of us kept calling for a little bit of patience is you just don't know how they are going to be able to go, and how compliant they can get their boat. What we know is (or at least, for lack of evidence to the contrary) they have compliant rudders, but their boat came in heavy, much of which was due to mandated "safety equipment". There may be other added weight related to beefing up the structure, but we have NO IDEA how much, and how much may have been dictated to them in an over-kill manner. A good deal of added weight is related to accommodating the "safety equipment" (extra wing ribs, for instance), which would not have been part of the original design specs. So, they could not measure now, and it is reasonable for the other teams to agree to the dispensation related to the weight issue. I believe it is still very likely they will be able to shave the weight by the time needed, and none of us know for sure, one way or the other. So, in that light, might it seem reasonable to just be patient?

 

As for their ability to get around the track. First of all, these are professional sailors. They are also pros that have sailed many days on an AC72. Yes, it may not have been foiling, but foiling may very well be the easier way around the track, from what we have seen. They are not jumping on the Blue Boat as green rookies. Hey, maybe they can get on the Blue Boat and run her around the track under full control. Top pros, with top experience foiling, and a significant amount of experience sailing an AC72 . . . . it is hardly beyond the realm of possibility that they could get on the Blue Boat and actually be able to keep her under control. So, while others were, with NO evidence they could not control the boat, calling for AR to pull the plug, many of us called for patience. Well, seems to me, they looked like they can sail her around without threat to themselves or others, within the first few hours.

 

The rules, as well as good sportsmanship, does not dictate that only those with X hours of training can or should compete, or only those who have mastered foiling jybes. It is not the case where only those who currently look like they are going to win should continue on. AR should NOT have pulled the plug, throwing away years of development, training, and investment just because they were looking at a monumental challenge, that is unless they did not have their heart into it, or believed they had no chance. That was not the case, and true sportsmen should have always just rooted them on, with the only reservation being that they should not actually race if it became apparent that they required competitive advantage rule accommodations and/or really posed a threat to themselves or others. Well, they currently need some allowance for extra weight, but it does not represent a competitive advantage, but rather to accommodate new "safety" requirements not in the original protocol, and they have now shown they can do a damned good job of controlling the beast within the very first hours under sail. And yet, some around here can't un-dig their heels for long enough to see that patience really was in order.

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Fairly telling:


Helmsman Nathan Outteridge said Big Blue felt good right from the off.

“The changes we’ve made (between boat 1 and boat 2) have been night and day,” he said. “Everyone is comfortable right away. From my perspective of driving, the moment it takes off out of the water, I have a pretty good idea of what’s supposed to happen and everything was as expected. It was a very nice boat to sail.”

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/3/news/16826/morning-briefing-luna-rossa-vs-artemis-racing

 

So, sounds like they are already more comfortable with Blue than they were with Red. Given their days on the water with Red, I would say it is hardly as though they were starting from scratch. Can't wait to see what they can do over the next few days. I hope our videographers are able catch some of their work. Thank you in advance for your efforts.

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Just fantastic to see them foil on the first day!

 

Congratulations!

 

Not sure if this was brought up already...

 

What is the meaning of the "P" like logo at the base of the wing???

 

fs

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Sounds like a new name for her "Patience" or "Smokin Blue".



MM, your close to the team, any hint for today? Wheels should be in motion...

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I think these photos say it all!

says a bit more

970004_663211023706564_321013215_n.jpg

He seems happier with B2....

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I think his smile should be used on Wikipedia under the phrase "shit eating grin". Would love to have been in his shoes yesterday.

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They had to foil out of the box, they did it. Now they have to fine tune the boat and foil lower.

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By the way, less than impressed by the half-hearted Front Page show of respect for AR's achievement yesterday. SHOCKING that they could not even say "good job", but rather "everyone is doing it". Nothing but class, huh!

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over on the "Spotting" thread, AR's suiting up and going out.

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For those out of the bay area, this is Encinal YC in Alameda, next door to Oakland YC. A few miles away from the Artemis base on the former Alameda Naval air station which is now gone.

 

Great YC and glad that they are bonding with Artemis and getting a little out of what is mostly conceived as an SF event. Alameda has just as much or maybe more, marinas, YCs, sailing related businesses etc, than SF these days.

 

 

 

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Ras...

 

Are you saying the "P" like symbol is for Pelle Pettersen?

 

Its cool looking... just havent heard any memntion of what it represents.

 

FS

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That is Pelle Petersens logo. I think he raced with his daughter, now Mrs Cayard. Must be a Scandinavian thing racing with your daughter, like Elvstrom.

Wait, that was Elvstroms grandaughter.

 

Pelle did some nice keelboats, but I was surprised that he is credited with as the designer of the Volvo P1800. They did a hatchback version of the P 1800 that I think is still one of the best looking cars ever.

 

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Volvo/72-Volvo_P1800ES_DV-08_CC_02.jpg

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Ras...

 

Are you saying the "P" like symbol is for Pelle Pettersen?

 

Its cool looking... just havent heard any memntion of what it represents.

 

FS

Correct -

Great!

 

Thanks... I must have missed that part of the discussion.

 

Does anyone know what the connection is...?

 

I looked at the links from Ras but they were only pictures of Pelle.

 

Fs

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That is Pelle Petersens logo. I think he raced with his daughter, now Mrs Cayard. Must be a Scandinavian thing racing with your daughter, like Elvstrom.

Wait, that was Elvstroms grandaughter.

 

Pelle did some nice keelboats, but I was surprised that he is credited with as the designer of the Volvo P1800. They did a hatchback version of the P 1800 that I think is still one of the best looking cars ever.

 

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Volvo/72-Volvo_P1800ES_DV-08_CC_02.jpg

Cool!

 

Thanks Ras! Much appreciated!

 

FS

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It is one of his daughters Cecilia that has all the neat fashion and sailing swag. The funny P must be her companies logo, but I'm sure Dad is a part of the firm. The other daughter Ulrika is married to Cayard.

 

Just checked the morning briefing and Artemis has asked for a 'black flag' start against Luna Rossa. Meaning that they will be disqualified 10 minutes after the start. Good on them to take a start, but WTF is the black flag all about. Imagine something failing on LR 5 minutes after the start slowing them down and AR getting lead, would AR still get the dsq at ten minutes?

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It is one of his daughters Cecilia that has all the neat fashion and sailing swag. The funny P must be her companies logo, but I'm sure Dad is a part of the firm. The other daughter Ulrika is married to Cayard.

 

Just checked the morning briefing and Artemis has asked for a 'black flag' start against Luna Rossa. Meaning that they will be disqualified 10 minutes after the start. Good on them to take a start, but WTF is the black flag all about. Imagine something failing on LR 5 minutes after the start slowing them down and AR getting lead, would AR still get the dsq at ten minutes?

 

Seems odd, doesn't it? Why not just go out there and be very conservative. Nothing says you HAVE to finish, or if you don't, you get any less than you would with the Black Flag. Maybe they are just old-school punkers. LR should see them their Black Flag, and raise them some Dead Kennedys

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Just checked the morning briefing and Artemis has asked for a 'black flag' start against Luna Rossa. Meaning that they will be disqualified 10 minutes after the start. Good on them to take a start, but WTF is the black flag all about. Imagine something failing on LR 5 minutes after the start slowing them down and AR getting lead, would AR still get the dsq at ten minutes?

Probably means that LR has agreed not to match race them in the start sequence.

Artemis hasn't had enough time to rehearse any maneuvers and rather than choose between risk of being damaged at the start or not racing at all, they chose this.

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Just checked the morning briefing and Artemis has asked for a 'black flag' start against Luna Rossa. Meaning that they will be disqualified 10 minutes after the start. Good on them to take a start, but WTF is the black flag all about. Imagine something failing on LR 5 minutes after the start slowing them down and AR getting lead, would AR still get the dsq at ten minutes?

Probably means that LR has agreed not to match race them in the start sequence.

Artemis hasn't had enough time to rehearse any maneuvers and rather than choose between risk of being damaged at the start or not racing at all, they chose this.

No , it means LR gets the win and can go home after 10 mins.

 

 

0820 update

Luna Rossa has asked the Race Committee for a ‘Black Flag’ race today. That means Artemis Racing will be disqualified 10 minutes after the start, ending the race. Due to this, today’s race will not be broadcast in any territories, including the local NBC and COZI channels and and YouTube.

Meanwhile, ORACLE TEAM USA has confirmed it will not be using its Defender Access today, and will be staying ashore. But Artemis Racing is expected to continue its training program in Big Blue and Emirates Team New Zealand will be out on the Bay as well.

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LR requested the black flag, not AR. LR and AR will not line up at the start. This will be just like the last time LR "raced" AR, except that AR will be somewhere on the bay (not on the race course).

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LR requested the black flag, not AR. LR and AR will not line up at the start. This will be just like the last time LR "raced" AR, except that AR will be somewhere on the bay (not on the race course).

Well, at least they'll make the time limit this time.

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So the black flags essentially screws the viewing fans at home...

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Today’s race will not be shown on YouTube, but can be followed online via VirtualEye or the America’s Cup ap

 

My iPad tells me live racing will start shortly.

 

Am more interested, though, in following Artemis on the StFYC cam.

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That is Pelle Petersens logo. I think he raced with his daughter, now Mrs Cayard. Must be a Scandinavian thing racing with your daughter, like Elvstrom.

Wait, that was Elvstroms grandaughter.

 

Pelle did some nice keelboats, but I was surprised that he is credited with as the designer of the Volvo P1800. They did a hatchback version of the P 1800 that I think is still one of the best looking cars ever.

 

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Volvo/72-Volvo_P1800ES_DV-08_CC_02.jpg

A favorite moment from the 70s was observing a friend of mine show off his HatchBack P1800 to Pele Peterson at a regatta in LA. He didn't know Peterson designed it, but I did. I bit my tongue to keep from bursting out laughing during the discussion.

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1968-volvo-p1800-es-rocket-concept-1024x

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Perhaps assisting in the grieving process for the survivors? I'm seeing smiles again.

 

 

Like I said, if they don't sail again they will have achieved something for themselves, as a team and as individuals who completed a task that Andrew Simpson was a part of. I am sure many kept going for him as much as anything else.

 

I have lost several friends in my sport and we all do what is right for them.

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LR requested the black flag, not AR. LR and AR will not line up at the start. This will be just like the last time LR "raced" AR, except that AR will be somewhere on the bay (not on the race course).

This is the part I have a big problem with. I applaud the AR guys both on and off the water for getting big blue ready to go and to be foiling already. I wish them luck and hope they actually add something to the event beyond just another competitor. All that being said, if you are scheduled to be on the race course you should be on the race course or back at base. A team, ANY team, should not be allowed to just say FU to the racing so that they can spend more time training. I understand that they have been through a tremendous amount in the last few months and everyone (myself included) want to see them out racing. I just find it very hard to believe that they are allowed to go out and sail around the course and put in some practice time when they are scheduled to be RACING. If nothing else they should have to be on the mooring during the time scheduled for the race, you can practice before or after (as the other teams do) but not when you are scheduled to be on the course racing.

 

My 2 cents

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congratulations, looks like they got it pretty right, given the talent not unexpected except by the koolade crew

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Has to be one of the best videos so far.

 

Quote of the day from NO "that is the first time I have driven a boat with a wheel"! These guys deserve to be there.

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Great news for everyone !!

 

We are all so pleased.

 

Looking forward to seeing how AR goes on the race track.

 

This is what we have all been waiting for go the AC72s and Artemis!

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So glad to see Big Blue on the water. Accolades to the team for their heart and perseverance under really tough circumstances.

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There is a dichotomy in this thread between:

  • Those who see AR as brave little battlers doing their utmost to get a boat on the course and triumphing against tragedy, with the potential for a "written for the movies" upset.
  • Those who see a disastrous campaign with multiple design and team stuff ups, that killed someone, who are now dicking around spending more money in a futile attempt to prove nothing.

I would suggest that the majority of us who have followed the AC over the last few decades are hard headed realists and fall into the latter camp. Unfortunately we seem to be mostly Kiwis. In reality spending well north of $100 million on a campaign that launches a non-measuring boat in the latter stages of the qualifying regatta is no achievement. What are they hoping to prove??

 

I don't hate them or consider that I am spewing vitriol in their direction. Individually they are great sailors and probably great people. But I hope they don't kill or injure anyone else. Dreaming they will do anything more is just fantasy land.

If the only goal of racing were to win, how many boats would be in this regatta?

 

How many boats would sail in any regatta?

Yeah I think you are confusing an amateur effort with a professional one. I go along to my local club regatta for a fun day out racing with no intention of winning - but then that is my aim. But its a slightly different kettle of fish if you have spent $100 million + and spent three years on it. They can't even claim marketing aims (LR), or development of the team (because the next regatta won't be in these boats, and the team will I imagine be radically different).

 

My post was responding to the outpouring of congratulations to AR for getting a boat in the water at this late stage, and the suggestions that they may cause an upset. I say cool story bro, but they are simply placing themselves and probably others in danger trying to race the most dangerous boat in sailing at the moment, in an underprepared state.

 

To those of you who buy the whole "tribute to Bart" story, have a think about it. Respond to the death of your friend by putting the lives everyone else on the line - with no possible gain in sight? Doesn't sound like a great tribute to me.

 

And for those of you who think it will add some interest to the racing in this regatta - sorry but out of luck. You may get about 2 minutes of interest at the start then it will be a total bore-fest (a la ETNZ/LR).

 

Sorry to be a wet blanket and I know I sound desperately cynical, but this "brave" effort is primarily to allow those in charge to avoid the total failure spectacle of not even making the start. It is about assuaging egos, proving they have achieved something after all. And even then they didn't really make it - they need a dispensation from the other teams on the weight, and it looks like another one from IM to allow them to sail with rudders that are under the "safe" area (but class legal).

 

I simply can't see where the congratulations are deserved.

 

I am right with you.

Many die hard AC followers see the AR team as a bit of a wank. As in Tank. Sherman tank. Need I say more to those that know Kevin Bloody Wilson?

 

All that being said, good job for getting your boat in the water and foiling on your first day.

Amazing what you can do after studying other boats.

 

I hate to say it, but you really shouldn't be in the LV series if you can't turn up for the first races.

 

You can't in other sports, so why can they do it now.

AAAAAAAnd, not pay the $100K fine for each race missed.

When LR are being sued for $400K.

 

Many people think it's kewl too. Why???

Sure they have had their challenges. PC and his potty mouth being one of the largest.

Still doesn't make it right.

 

Any questions?

 

Would also like to make apologies for not responding to any posts that may have been, and may soon be, thrown in my direction.

Just moved from Croatia to Montenegro so lost wifi in Croatia and the wifi in Montenegro is right dodgy.

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Quote of the day from NO "that is the first time I have driven a boat with a wheel"! These guys deserve to be there.

 

Funny thing, I built two sisterships, one with wheel, one with tiller.

After sitting out wide and steering the first boat for 8 months with a tiller....When I got to the wheel, I wanted to hunt up a little....I pushed the wheel away slightly (DOH)

Not the sort of instant reaction you want to do at 35knts.

After a few minutes it all clicked in natural but I had a chuckle to myself....the crew never noticed

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Big Blue made a brief appearance in North Bay, then hooked up with ETNZ and headed south.

 

DSC_2128_zps62486c3f.jpg

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Here's the thing for you guys that keep spouting off about how AR should have pulled the plug, that they are a hazard to the other teams, blah blah blah blah . . . .

 

The reason many of us kept calling for a little bit of patience is you just don't know how they are going to be able to go, and how compliant they can get their boat. What we know is (or at least, for lack of evidence to the contrary) they have compliant rudders, but their boat came in heavy, much of which was due to mandated "safety equipment". There may be other added weight related to beefing up the structure, but we have NO IDEA how much, and how much may have been dictated to them in an over-kill manner. A good deal of added weight is related to accommodating the "safety equipment" (extra wing ribs, for instance), which would not have been part of the original design specs. So, they could not measure now, and it is reasonable for the other teams to agree to the dispensation related to the weight issue. I believe it is still very likely they will be able to shave the weight by the time needed, and none of us know for sure, one way or the other. So, in that light, might it seem reasonable to just be patient?

 

As for their ability to get around the track. First of all, these are professional sailors. They are also pros that have sailed many days on an AC72. Yes, it may not have been foiling, but foiling may very well be the easier way around the track, from what we have seen. They are not jumping on the Blue Boat as green rookies. Hey, maybe they can get on the Blue Boat and run her around the track under full control. Top pros, with top experience foiling, and a significant amount of experience sailing an AC72 . . . . it is hardly beyond the realm of possibility that they could get on the Blue Boat and actually be able to keep her under control. So, while others were, with NO evidence they could not control the boat, calling for AR to pull the plug, many of us called for patience. Well, seems to me, they looked like they can sail her around without threat to themselves or others, within the first few hours.

 

The rules, as well as good sportsmanship, does not dictate that only those with X hours of training can or should compete, or only those who have mastered foiling jybes. It is not the case where only those who currently look like they are going to win should continue on. AR should NOT have pulled the plug, throwing away years of development, training, and investment just because they were looking at a monumental challenge, that is unless they did not have their heart into it, or believed they had no chance. That was not the case, and true sportsmen should have always just rooted them on, with the only reservation being that they should not actually race if it became apparent that they required competitive advantage rule accommodations and/or really posed a threat to themselves or others. Well, they currently need some allowance for extra weight, but it does not represent a competitive advantage, but rather to accommodate new "safety" requirements not in the original protocol, and they have now shown they can do a damned good job of controlling the beast within the very first hours under sail. And yet, some around here can't un-dig their heels for long enough to see that patience really was in order.

 

The safety requirements that require extra equipment were accommodated without dispensations - generally because they are outside the measurement rules. The dispensations are needed because the design was not strong enough, and they had to add extra material into the boat in order to meet the same loads as the other boats. Saying that it is fair is stupid - they fucked up their design and made an unsafe boat, and couldn't make a safe boat within the measurement rules. There is no fair in it - the only reason they have been given a dispensation is because the other syndicates know that they won't be competitive, and it looks better for the regatta to have another boat. If they were remotely competitive LR would have vetoed the dispensation, and AR would not be in the regatta, and that would have been fair.

 

As for the rudder elevator issue, this is the wording of the IM dispensation approach:

 

A Competitor may use a rudder /elevator combination deviating from the above
provided the Competitor has provided the Regatta Director with a report
demonstrating with data, calculations and/or other information (including any other
ameliorating AC72 design and operational factors, and recent rule changes) that the
rudder/elevator combination provides overall a sufficient level of control and
reliability for their AC72 yacht.

 

Because the other boats are going to voluntarily comply with the original directive, and because they are much more advanced in their understanding of foiling AC72's it is highly unlikely that IM will simply accept a set of calculations wherein AR prove that their <0.32m2 rudder elevator is "safe". They will have to prove that they can achieve an equivalent to a 0.32m2 elevator, as used by the other boats on the course that will have larger rudder elevators. This is in line with AR meeting the load factors provided by the other boats to prove its structural soundness.

 

How will they do that? They could change the angle of attack, but that would make it useless for foiling. They can't adjust it dynamically. My guess therefore is that the operational factors will be key, and going further with the speculation, the only thing I can see them using to prove they are OK is by limiting the conditions in which they will sail. ie they will agree not to race if the wind is >18knots perhaps?

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Big Blue made a brief appearance in North Bay, then hooked up with ETNZ and headed south.

 

DSC_2128_zps62486c3f.jpg

So now ETNZ is teaching them how to flybe already?! Is there no limit to the philanthropy of Pope Dalton?? B) He should be annointed Saint Grant

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At the end of the day, this America's Cup is a competition. In every competition, competitors must first (at least) complete the first stage of the competition to gain access to the next stage. Its a progression. You have to earn your way from one stage to the next. There are only two teams who have earned their way through to the semi-finals stages of the Louis Vuitton Cup. Luna rossa and ETNZ, they have sailed the course, earned points, notched up wins and losses and that qualifies them for the semi-finals.

I am with the realists, its great for Artemis that they were able to get back out on the course and sail, however, a lot of that credit has to go to the other teams, because without their help (Load data and design help), and without the suggested dispensation Artemis would not be able to sail or compete in any way in this regatta because their boat exceeds measurement criteria.

Its a great sight to see them out on the bay but we can't forget that they have not sailed the required schedule, they have not contributed to the "on the water" regatta, they have not won, they have not lost, therefor, they should not progress to a semi-final stage where the stakes are high. It seems a lot of people on here, while praising Artemis for their efforts (and rightly so) are forgetting the effort and time the other teams have put in to their own campaigns and in helping Artemis achieve theirs. All this after being protested against at every point by Artemis Racing early on in their campaigns. It does seem to be mostly Kiwis that are maybe "against" Artemis but its a tough ask to say to someone (especially Kiwis), forget about the schedule, forget about the past, forget everything and just praise Artemis for being out there. After all, this is Do or Die for us. NZ wins, awesome!, NZ loses its over, no more challenges, no more Americas Cup (as far as we know) anyway.

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As for the 49er not sure it the measure of a skiff helm, pretty benign boat especially with the class wind limits, have you sailed an r class, 12', 18' in 30 knots?

I don't claim to be any sort of sailor but yes I have crewed a Murray 18 in 30 knots. We ended up dropping the main and coming in on the jib alone when the race was cancelled.

 

The point I make is that winning a 49er gold medal is probably the best preparation there is for sailing an AC72. There are a lot of other skills needed when sailing with a large team but your helming skills will be second to none.

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Like the little smile on IP when he suggests they need to go out and beat ETNZ...

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Big Blue made a brief appearance in North Bay, then hooked up with ETNZ and headed south.

 

DSC_2128_zps62486c3f.jpg

So now ETNZ is teaching them how to flybe already?! Is there no limit to the philanthropy of Pope Dalton?? B) He should be annointed Saint Grant

 

 

Come on this ins't anything new.

 

We've been saying all along GD is a giver :)

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Big Blue made a brief appearance in North Bay, then hooked up with ETNZ and headed south.

 

DSC_2128_zps62486c3f.jpg

So now ETNZ is teaching them how to flybe already?! Is there no limit to the philanthropy of Pope Dalton?? B) He should be annointed Saint Grant

i wonder at the aspect ratio of that jib. Any thoughts

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Aspect ratio looks somewhere in between ETNZ/LR's skinny ones and OR's stodgy looking overlapping triangles.

The tack looks a long way forward on the boat, but Clifford looked the same.

 

What caught my attention was the second line coming from just under the Swedish flag and passes to the rear of the jib head. Halyard? Baby-stay?

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You guys just won't give up, will you, no matter how wrong you are?

 

 

Here's the thing for you guys that keep spouting off about how AR should have pulled the plug, that they are a hazard to the other teams, blah blah blah blah . . . .

 

The reason many of us kept calling for a little bit of patience is you just don't know how they are going to be able to go, and how compliant they can get their boat. What we know is (or at least, for lack of evidence to the contrary) they have compliant rudders, but their boat came in heavy, much of which was due to mandated "safety equipment". There may be other added weight related to beefing up the structure, but we have NO IDEA how much, and how much may have been dictated to them in an over-kill manner. A good deal of added weight is related to accommodating the "safety equipment" (extra wing ribs, for instance), which would not have been part of the original design specs. So, they could not measure now, and it is reasonable for the other teams to agree to the dispensation related to the weight issue. I believe it is still very likely they will be able to shave the weight by the time needed, and none of us know for sure, one way or the other. So, in that light, might it seem reasonable to just be patient?

 

As for their ability to get around the track. First of all, these are professional sailors. They are also pros that have sailed many days on an AC72. Yes, it may not have been foiling, but foiling may very well be the easier way around the track, from what we have seen. They are not jumping on the Blue Boat as green rookies. Hey, maybe they can get on the Blue Boat and run her around the track under full control. Top pros, with top experience foiling, and a significant amount of experience sailing an AC72 . . . . it is hardly beyond the realm of possibility that they could get on the Blue Boat and actually be able to keep her under control. So, while others were, with NO evidence they could not control the boat, calling for AR to pull the plug, many of us called for patience. Well, seems to me, they looked like they can sail her around without threat to themselves or others, within the first few hours.

 

The rules, as well as good sportsmanship, does not dictate that only those with X hours of training can or should compete, or only those who have mastered foiling jybes. It is not the case where only those who currently look like they are going to win should continue on. AR should NOT have pulled the plug, throwing away years of development, training, and investment just because they were looking at a monumental challenge, that is unless they did not have their heart into it, or believed they had no chance. That was not the case, and true sportsmen should have always just rooted them on, with the only reservation being that they should not actually race if it became apparent that they required competitive advantage rule accommodations and/or really posed a threat to themselves or others. Well, they currently need some allowance for extra weight, but it does not represent a competitive advantage, but rather to accommodate new "safety" requirements not in the original protocol, and they have now shown they can do a damned good job of controlling the beast within the very first hours under sail. And yet, some around here can't un-dig their heels for long enough to see that patience really was in order.

 

The safety requirements that require extra equipment were accommodated without dispensations - generally because they are outside the measurement rules. The dispensations are needed because the design was not strong enough, and they had to add extra material into the boat in order to meet the same loads as the other boats. Saying that it is fair is stupid - they fucked up their design and made an unsafe boat, and couldn't make a safe boat within the measurement rules. There is no fair in it - the only reason they have been given a dispensation is because the other syndicates know that they won't be competitive, and it looks better for the regatta to have another boat. If they were remotely competitive LR would have vetoed the dispensation, and AR would not be in the regatta, and that would have been fair.

 

As for the rudder elevator issue, this is the wording of the IM dispensation approach:

 

A Competitor may use a rudder /elevator combination deviating from the above
provided the Competitor has provided the Regatta Director with a report
demonstrating with data, calculations and/or other information (including any other
ameliorating AC72 design and operational factors, and recent rule changes) that the
rudder/elevator combination provides overall a sufficient level of control and
reliability for their AC72 yacht.

 

Because the other boats are going to voluntarily comply with the original directive, and because they are much more advanced in their understanding of foiling AC72's it is highly unlikely that IM will simply accept a set of calculations wherein AR prove that their <0.32m2 rudder elevator is "safe". They will have to prove that they can achieve an equivalent to a 0.32m2 elevator, as used by the other boats on the course that will have larger rudder elevators. This is in line with AR meeting the load factors provided by the other boats to prove its structural soundness.

 

How will they do that? They could change the angle of attack, but that would make it useless for foiling. They can't adjust it dynamically. My guess therefore is that the operational factors will be key, and going further with the speculation, the only thing I can see them using to prove they are OK is by limiting the conditions in which they will sail. ie they will agree not to race if the wind is >18knots perhaps?

 

First of all, could you reference the detail of what was required for work on AR's boat, specifically the "they had to add extra material into the boat in order to meet the same loads as the other boats" part? Maybe I'm wrong, but we have not been given any details. The closest we can come is where IP or NO were talking about how the different wing film required for the safety rules was forcing them to add ribs to the wing. We have heard rumors of different structural bolstering, specifically around the beams, but no facts or referenced details that I know of, right?

 

As for the rudders, I find it kind of interesting that you Kiwis were all up in arms about IM forcing the safety rules related to the boat, how you can't have changes to the protocol at the last minute, but now you think it is totally reasonable to force AR to either comply with the rules or not race if winds are over certain levels. Their rudders comply with the protocol rules, so they should be able to race if they so choose, without any restrictions by the organizers, at least if you guys want to be consistent.


At the end of the day, this America's Cup is a competition. In every competition, competitors must first (at least) complete the first stage of the competition to gain access to the next stage. Its a progression. You have to earn your way from one stage to the next. There are only two teams who have earned their way through to the semi-finals stages of the Louis Vuitton Cup. Luna rossa and ETNZ, they have sailed the course, earned points, notched up wins and losses and that qualifies them for the semi-finals.

I am with the realists [TOO DAMNED FUNNY, THIS], its great for Artemis that they were able to get back out on the course and sail, however, a lot of that credit has to go to the other teams, because without their help (Load data and design help), and without the suggested dispensation Artemis would not be able to sail or compete in any way in this regatta because their boat exceeds measurement criteria.

Its a great sight to see them out on the bay but we can't forget that they have not sailed the required schedule, they have not contributed to the "on the water" regatta, they have not won, they have not lost, therefor, they should not progress to a semi-final stage where the stakes are high. It seems a lot of people on here, while praising Artemis for their efforts (and rightly so) are forgetting the effort and time the other teams have put in to their own campaigns and in helping Artemis achieve theirs. All this after being protested against at every point by Artemis Racing early on in their campaigns. It does seem to be mostly Kiwis that are maybe "against" Artemis but its a tough ask to say to someone (especially Kiwis), forget about the schedule, forget about the past, forget everything and just praise Artemis for being out there. After all, this is Do or Die for us. NZ wins, awesome!, NZ loses its over, no more challenges, no more Americas Cup (as far as we know) anyway.

 

First of all, LR asked to have the fines dropped for not racing, and they were. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one is getting fined. Secondly, the regatta set up involves fairly worthless Round Robbins that have not intended to eliminate anyone since it was determined that there would only be three teams, long before AR's accident. Someone point out to the rest of us where there is anything indicating that anyone has to do anything to advance to the Semis. It is fantasy to say that AR has not satisfied their requirements to move on to the semis.

 

By the way, can you point out anyone that has not given ETNZ full credit for conducting a first rate operation? Not one has forgotten what they have done, so cut the poor disrespected Kiwi crap.

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Aspect ratio looks somewhere in between ETNZ/LR's skinny ones and OR's stodgy looking overlapping triangles.

The tack looks a long way forward on the boat, but Clifford looked the same.

 

What caught my attention was the second line coming from just under the Swedish flag and passes to the rear of the jib head. Halyard? Baby-stay?

Sack from the halyard for the gennaker? Honest question and pure supposition.

 

EDIT:

 

They don't have an extended bowsprit do they?

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You guys just won't give up, will you, no matter how wrong you are?

 

 

Here's the thing for you guys that keep spouting off about how AR should have pulled the plug, that they are a hazard to the other teams, blah blah blah blah . . . .

 

The reason many of us kept calling for a little bit of patience is you just don't know how they are going to be able to go, and how compliant they can get their boat. What we know is (or at least, for lack of evidence to the contrary) they have compliant rudders, but their boat came in heavy, much of which was due to mandated "safety equipment". There may be other added weight related to beefing up the structure, but we have NO IDEA how much, and how much may have been dictated to them in an over-kill manner. A good deal of added weight is related to accommodating the "safety equipment" (extra wing ribs, for instance), which would not have been part of the original design specs. So, they could not measure now, and it is reasonable for the other teams to agree to the dispensation related to the weight issue. I believe it is still very likely they will be able to shave the weight by the time needed, and none of us know for sure, one way or the other. So, in that light, might it seem reasonable to just be patient?

 

As for their ability to get around the track. First of all, these are professional sailors. They are also pros that have sailed many days on an AC72. Yes, it may not have been foiling, but foiling may very well be the easier way around the track, from what we have seen. They are not jumping on the Blue Boat as green rookies. Hey, maybe they can get on the Blue Boat and run her around the track under full control. Top pros, with top experience foiling, and a significant amount of experience sailing an AC72 . . . . it is hardly beyond the realm of possibility that they could get on the Blue Boat and actually be able to keep her under control. So, while others were, with NO evidence they could not control the boat, calling for AR to pull the plug, many of us called for patience. Well, seems to me, they looked like they can sail her around without threat to themselves or others, within the first few hours.

 

The rules, as well as good sportsmanship, does not dictate that only those with X hours of training can or should compete, or only those who have mastered foiling jybes. It is not the case where only those who currently look like they are going to win should continue on. AR should NOT have pulled the plug, throwing away years of development, training, and investment just because they were looking at a monumental challenge, that is unless they did not have their heart into it, or believed they had no chance. That was not the case, and true sportsmen should have always just rooted them on, with the only reservation being that they should not actually race if it became apparent that they required competitive advantage rule accommodations and/or really posed a threat to themselves or others. Well, they currently need some allowance for extra weight, but it does not represent a competitive advantage, but rather to accommodate new "safety" requirements not in the original protocol, and they have now shown they can do a damned good job of controlling the beast within the very first hours under sail. And yet, some around here can't un-dig their heels for long enough to see that patience really was in order.

 

The safety requirements that require extra equipment were accommodated without dispensations - generally because they are outside the measurement rules. The dispensations are needed because the design was not strong enough, and they had to add extra material into the boat in order to meet the same loads as the other boats. Saying that it is fair is stupid - they fucked up their design and made an unsafe boat, and couldn't make a safe boat within the measurement rules. There is no fair in it - the only reason they have been given a dispensation is because the other syndicates know that they won't be competitive, and it looks better for the regatta to have another boat. If they were remotely competitive LR would have vetoed the dispensation, and AR would not be in the regatta, and that would have been fair.

 

As for the rudder elevator issue, this is the wording of the IM dispensation approach:

 

A Competitor may use a rudder /elevator combination deviating from the above
provided the Competitor has provided the Regatta Director with a report
demonstrating with data, calculations and/or other information (including any other
ameliorating AC72 design and operational factors, and recent rule changes) that the
rudder/elevator combination provides overall a sufficient level of control and
reliability for their AC72 yacht.

 

Because the other boats are going to voluntarily comply with the original directive, and because they are much more advanced in their understanding of foiling AC72's it is highly unlikely that IM will simply accept a set of calculations wherein AR prove that their <0.32m2 rudder elevator is "safe". They will have to prove that they can achieve an equivalent to a 0.32m2 elevator, as used by the other boats on the course that will have larger rudder elevators. This is in line with AR meeting the load factors provided by the other boats to prove its structural soundness.

 

How will they do that? They could change the angle of attack, but that would make it useless for foiling. They can't adjust it dynamically. My guess therefore is that the operational factors will be key, and going further with the speculation, the only thing I can see them using to prove they are OK is by limiting the conditions in which they will sail. ie they will agree not to race if the wind is >18knots perhaps?

 

First of all, could you reference the detail of what was required for work on AR's boat, specifically the "they had to add extra material into the boat in order to meet the same loads as the other boats" part? Maybe I'm wrong, but we have not been given any details. The closest we can come is where IP or NO were talking about how the different wing film required for the safety rules was forcing them to add ribs to the wing. We have heard rumors of different structural bolstering, specifically around the beams, but no facts or referenced details that I know of, right?

 

As for the rudders, I find it kind of interesting that you Kiwis were all up in arms about IM forcing the safety rules related to the boat, how you can't have changes to the protocol at the last minute, but now you think it is totally reasonable to force AR to either comply with the rules or not race if winds are over certain levels. Their rudders comply with the protocol rules, so they should be able to race if they so choose, without any restrictions by the organizers, at least if you guys want to be consistent.

 

 

>

At the end of the day, this America's Cup is a competition. In every competition, competitors must first (at least) complete the first stage of the competition to gain access to the next stage. Its a progression. You have to earn your way from one stage to the next. There are only two teams who have earned their way through to the semi-finals stages of the Louis Vuitton Cup. Luna rossa and ETNZ, they have sailed the course, earned points, notched up wins and losses and that qualifies them for the semi-finals.

I am with the realists [TOO DAMNED FUNNY, THIS], its great for Artemis that they were able to get back out on the course and sail, however, a lot of that credit has to go to the other teams, because without their help (Load data and design help), and without the suggested dispensation Artemis would not be able to sail or compete in any way in this regatta because their boat exceeds measurement criteria.

Its a great sight to see them out on the bay but we can't forget that they have not sailed the required schedule, they have not contributed to the "on the water" regatta, they have not won, they have not lost, therefor, they should not progress to a semi-final stage where the stakes are high. It seems a lot of people on here, while praising Artemis for their efforts (and rightly so) are forgetting the effort and time the other teams have put in to their own campaigns and in helping Artemis achieve theirs. All this after being protested against at every point by Artemis Racing early on in their campaigns. It does seem to be mostly Kiwis that are maybe "against" Artemis but its a tough ask to say to someone (especially Kiwis), forget about the schedule, forget about the past, forget everything and just praise Artemis for being out there. After all, this is Do or Die for us. NZ wins, awesome!, NZ loses its over, no more challenges, no more Americas Cup (as far as we know) anyway.

 

First of all, LR asked to have the fines dropped for not racing, and they were. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one is getting fined. Secondly, the regatta set up involves fairly worthless Round Robbins that have not intended to eliminate anyone since it was determined that there would only be three teams, long before AR's accident. Someone point out to the rest of us where there is anything indicating that anyone has to do anything to advance to the Semis. It is fantasy to say that AR has not satisfied their requirements to move on to the semis.

 

By the way, can you point out anyone that has not given ETNZ full credit for conducting a first rate operation? Not one has forgotten what they have done, so cut the poor disrespected Kiwi crap.

 

You're right, no one is getting fined...why? Because it gave Artemis Racing an out when they weren't going to be ready. And as it became clear there was going to be rule changes arising from that incident, it gave Luna rossa a chance to sit out racing and push their point that they would not let that happen. The one thing that everyone forgets is, its not the fact that Bart Simpson died that put them behind, sure it was a tragedy, A REAL TRAGEDY. But that happened on the LAST sailing day of boat 1. If their second boat was ready to launch soon after that incident, they could've grieved for Andrew and re-started their campaign relatively easily. There are a lot of British sailors e.g Ben Ainslie on Oracle racing who were close friends with Andrew Simpson and who were able to resume their training soon after the tragedy. It was the fact that the Artemis campaign was so far behind schedule, they had one boat that failed and another that had serious structural issues. The design was a failure which had to change direction (to incorporate foiling) very close to the end of its design process, and which still does not meet the AC72 class rule compliance requirements. There's no poor disrespected Kiwi crap going on here, just looking at the situation for what it really is. Something a lot of people refuse to see or think its not relevant. In 1999 Martin Wizner from DeSafio Espanol died instantly when the broken boom hit him in the head. Yet they carried on under their own steam, on schedule, no bending of the rules to accommodate them, no dispensation, and their boat measured before they sailed each day.

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Ta!

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Aspect ratio looks somewhere in between ETNZ/LR's skinny ones and OR's stodgy looking overlapping triangles.

The tack looks a long way forward on the boat, but Clifford looked the same.

 

What caught my attention was the second line coming from just under the Swedish flag and passes to the rear of the jib head. Halyard? Baby-stay?

Sack from the halyard for the gennaker? Honest question and pure supposition.

 

EDIT:

 

They don't have an extended bowsprit do they?

 

No it was a shorty today

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You're right, no one is getting fined...why? Because it gave Artemis Racing an out when they weren't going to be ready. And as it became clear there was going to be rule changes arising from that incident, it gave Luna rossa a chance to sit out racing and push their point that they would not let that happen. The one thing that everyone forgets is, its not the fact that Bart Simpson died that put them behind, sure it was a tragedy, A REAL TRAGEDY. But that happened on the LAST sailing day of boat 1. If their second boat was ready to launch soon after that incident, they could've grieved for Andrew and re-started their campaign relatively easily. There are a lot of British sailors e.g Ben Ainslie on Oracle racing who were close friends with Andrew Simpson and who were able to resume their training soon after the tragedy. It was the fact that the Artemis campaign was so far behind schedule, they had one boat that failed and another that had serious structural issues. The design was a failure which had to change direction (to incorporate foiling) very close to the end of its design process, and which still does not meet the AC72 class rule compliance requirements. There's no poor disrespected Kiwi crap going on here, just looking at the situation for what it really is. Something a lot of people refuse to see or think its not relevant. In 1999 Martin Wizner from DeSafio Espanol died instantly when the broken boom hit him in the head. Yet they carried on under their own steam, on schedule, no bending of the rules to accommodate them, no dispensation, and their boat measured before they sailed each day.

 

Actually, LR initiated the request for fines to be waived, not AR, and it was for LR's own reasons, not any charitable offer to AR.

 

And as for AR being ready to race by July 4, they were to have the Blue Boat ready by mid June had it not been for the accident. The sail that involved the accident was to be the last involving the Red Boat, and had it not been for that accident, they would have had all personnel immediately prepping the Blue Boat. The beams had already been redesigned from the Red Boat, and the work related to the safety committees new rules were almost assuredly overkill for the wind limits. They would not have had to do most of that, and the rudders they are using were created for the Blue Boat before the safety committees new rules. The accident absolutely added at least a month to their preparation time for the Blue Boat. Had it not been for the accident, they would have been doing what they are now doing, but many weeks ago.

 

So give it a damned rest. AR had a poor first design, but their second design is looking pretty good to anyone being objective. We'll see how fast it is, eventually, but the drumbeat against AR is beyond stale.

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You're right, no one is getting fined...why? Because it gave Artemis Racing an out when they weren't going to be ready. And as it became clear there was going to be rule changes arising from that incident, it gave Luna rossa a chance to sit out racing and push their point that they would not let that happen. The one thing that everyone forgets is, its not the fact that Bart Simpson died that put them behind, sure it was a tragedy, A REAL TRAGEDY. But that happened on the LAST sailing day of boat 1. If their second boat was ready to launch soon after that incident, they could've grieved for Andrew and re-started their campaign relatively easily. There are a lot of British sailors e.g Ben Ainslie on Oracle racing who were close friends with Andrew Simpson and who were able to resume their training soon after the tragedy. It was the fact that the Artemis campaign was so far behind schedule, they had one boat that failed and another that had serious structural issues. The design was a failure which had to change direction (to incorporate foiling) very close to the end of its design process, and which still does not meet the AC72 class rule compliance requirements. There's no poor disrespected Kiwi crap going on here, just looking at the situation for what it really is. Something a lot of people refuse to see or think its not relevant. In 1999 Martin Wizner from DeSafio Espanol died instantly when the broken boom hit him in the head. Yet they carried on under their own steam, on schedule, no bending of the rules to accommodate them, no dispensation, and their boat measured before they sailed each day.

 

Actually, LR initiated the request for fines to be waived, not AR, and it was for LR's own reasons, not any charitable offer to AR.

 

And as for AR being ready to race by July 4, they were to have the Blue Boat ready by mid June had it not been for the accident. The sail that involved the accident was to be the last involving the Red Boat, and had it not been for that accident, they would have had all personnel immediately prepping the Blue Boat. The beams had already been redesigned from the Red Boat, and the work related to the safety committees new rules were almost assuredly overkill for the wind limits. They would not have had to do most of that, and the rudders they are using were created for the Blue Boat before the safety committees new rules. The accident absolutely added at least a month to their preparation time for the Blue Boat. Had it not been for the accident, they would have been doing what they are now doing, but many weeks ago.

 

So give it a damned rest. AR had a poor first design, but their second design is looking pretty good to anyone being objective. We'll see how fast it is, eventually, but the drumbeat against AR is beyond stale.

Their second boat looks good because it doesn't measure. The only way it would survive the load testing was to build it in excess of the weight requirements in the AC72 class rule. And the one thing a lot of people would like to see is a video of Artemis racing thanking the rest of the teams for agreeing to allow them to carry on with their campaign. The only reason they are sailing today is because ETNZ and Luna Rossa allowed them to.

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Thu Jul 25

Louis Vuitton Cup

Round Robin 4

12:15

SWE* vs. ITA

 

Quit screwing around out there and get'r ready to race tomorrow.

You are kidding right?

How can you expect them to race after 1 day on the water?

They are going to be woefully underdone even by the time the semis roll around, perhaps even to the point of being dangerous.

 

Its looking likely now that they will be able to sail in the semis.

Be happy with that. Anything else is just too much to ask.

There is a dichotomy in this thread between:

  • Those who see AR as brave little battlers doing their utmost to get a boat on the course and triumphing against tragedy, with the potential for a "written for the movies" upset.
  • Those who see a disastrous campaign with multiple design and team stuff ups, that killed someone, who are now dicking around spending more money in a futile attempt to prove nothing.

I would suggest that the majority of us who have followed the AC over the last few decades are hard headed realists and fall into the latter camp. Unfortunately we seem to be mostly Kiwis. In reality spending well north of $100 million on a campaign that launches a non-measuring boat in the latter stages of the qualifying regatta is no achievement. What are they hoping to prove??

 

I don't hate them or consider that I am spewing vitriol in their direction. Individually they are great sailors and probably great people. But I hope they don't kill or injure anyone else. Dreaming they will do anything more is just fantasy land.

If the only goal of racing were to win, how many boats would be in this regatta?

 

How many boats would sail in any regatta?

Yeah I think you are confusing an amateur effort with a professional one. I go along to my local club regatta for a fun day out racing with no intention of winning - but then that is my aim. But its a slightly different kettle of fish if you have spent $100 million + and spent three years on it. They can't even claim marketing aims (LR), or development of the team (because the next regatta won't be in these boats, and the team will I imagine be radically different).

 

My post was responding to the outpouring of congratulations to AR for getting a boat in the water at this late stage, and the suggestions that they may cause an upset. I say cool story bro, but they are simply placing themselves and probably others in danger trying to race the most dangerous boat in sailing at the moment, in an underprepared state.

 

To those of you who buy the whole "tribute to Bart" story, have a think about it. Respond to the death of your friend by putting the lives everyone else on the line - with no possible gain in sight? Doesn't sound like a great tribute to me.

 

And for those of you who think it will add some interest to the racing in this regatta - sorry but out of luck. You may get about 2 minutes of interest at the start then it will be a total bore-fest (a la ETNZ/LR).

 

Sorry to be a wet blanket and I know I sound desperately cynical, but this "brave" effort is primarily to allow those in charge to avoid the total failure spectacle of not even making the start. It is about assuaging egos, proving they have achieved something after all. And even then they didn't really make it - they need a dispensation from the other teams on the weight, and it looks like another one from IM to allow them to sail with rudders that are under the "safe" area (but class legal).

 

I simply can't see where the congratulations are deserved.

TT is the owner. He is nurturing his team, and I for one am totally impressed by the fact that he continues to tilt at the AC windmill. Good for him. And congratulations, team, on the stunning effort.

 

And please don't boor with quotes about the expense. What would you have a billionaire spend it on instead? I can think of no thing better than gifting his team the wherewithal to sail such a magnificent yacht.

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TT is the owner. He is nurturing his team, and I for one am totally impressed by the fact that he continues to tilt at the AC windmill. Good for him. And congratulations, team, on the stunning effort.

And please don't boor with quotes about the expense. What would you have a billionaire spend it on instead? I can think of no thing better than gifting his team the wherewithal to sail such a magnificent yacht.

 

Nice view of it.

 

I think I'll choose to believe this, as it's the most palatable explanation on offer I think.

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I think its a much more telling test of charatcer to persist when victory is no longer posible, and honor the eforts of the last cupple of yares.

 

kewdos.

 

Wining is not nothing but its not evrything.

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You're right, no one is getting fined...why? Because it gave Artemis Racing an out when they weren't going to be ready. And as it became clear there was going to be rule changes arising from that incident, it gave Luna rossa a chance to sit out racing and push their point that they would not let that happen. The one thing that everyone forgets is, its not the fact that Bart Simpson died that put them behind, sure it was a tragedy, A REAL TRAGEDY. But that happened on the LAST sailing day of boat 1. If their second boat was ready to launch soon after that incident, they could've grieved for Andrew and re-started their campaign relatively easily. There are a lot of British sailors e.g Ben Ainslie on Oracle racing who were close friends with Andrew Simpson and who were able to resume their training soon after the tragedy. It was the fact that the Artemis campaign was so far behind schedule, they had one boat that failed and another that had serious structural issues. The design was a failure which had to change direction (to incorporate foiling) very close to the end of its design process, and which still does not meet the AC72 class rule compliance requirements. There's no poor disrespected Kiwi crap going on here, just looking at the situation for what it really is. Something a lot of people refuse to see or think its not relevant. In 1999 Martin Wizner from DeSafio Espanol died instantly when the broken boom hit him in the head. Yet they carried on under their own steam, on schedule, no bending of the rules to accommodate them, no dispensation, and their boat measured before they sailed each day.

Actually, LR initiated the request for fines to be waived, not AR, and it was for LR's own reasons, not any charitable offer to AR.

 

And as for AR being ready to race by July 4, they were to have the Blue Boat ready by mid June had it not been for the accident. The sail that involved the accident was to be the last involving the Red Boat, and had it not been for that accident, they would have had all personnel immediately prepping the Blue Boat. The beams had already been redesigned from the Red Boat, and the work related to the safety committees new rules were almost assuredly overkill for the wind limits. They would not have had to do most of that, and the rudders they are using were created for the Blue Boat before the safety committees new rules. The accident absolutely added at least a month to their preparation time for the Blue Boat. Had it not been for the accident, they would have been doing what they are now doing, but many weeks ago.

 

So give it a damned rest. AR had a poor first design, but their second design is looking pretty good to anyone being objective. We'll see how fast it is, eventually, but the drumbeat against AR is beyond stale.

Their second boat looks good because it doesn't measure. The only way it would survive the load testing was to build it in excess of the weight requirements in the AC72 class rule. And the one thing a lot of people would like to see is a video of Artemis racing thanking the rest of the teams for agreeing to allow them to carry on with their campaign. The only reason they are sailing today is because ETNZ and Luna Rossa allowed them to.

There is ZERO evidence that they would not have measured or that the boat would not have been structurally sound as things would have been had the accident not occurred, and there is no evidence that any of the post-crash alterations enhanced performance (more likely the contrary, adding 100s of KGs).

 

You keep pulling crap out of your ass and trying to pass it off as fact to support your shit slinging.

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You guys just won't give up, will you, no matter how wrong you are?

 

 

First of all, LR asked to have the fines dropped for not racing, and they were. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one is getting fined.

 

Pretty decent of LR and lucky for AR.

 

Now the ACEA have to get some dosh back from all the money lost because they cannot collect from AR.

Quotes from NZ Herald:

 

"The spats between the America's Cup Event Authority and Luna Rossa continue - this time with the ACEA asking the Italians to cough up nearly US$400,000 over a hospitality lounge.

The ACEA have appealed to the international jury to force Luna Rossa to pay up after the Italians rejected the lounge built for them.

However, all this political use of protests is doing nothing for the flavour of the event. The ACEA doing battle with one of the few syndicates that has supported the event is one thing. Then add in the fact that Artemis has benefited from having the US$100,000 fine for not turning up to each race waived - yet go straight into the Louis Vuitton semifinals."

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"The ACEA doing battle with one of the few syndicates that has supported the event is one thing."

Who precisely is doing the "irreparable damage" here?

 

If OR wins, it will be a fun pitch for teams for funding. "That ACEA, didn't they fine one of the team who didn't attend a party? Well thanks for the presentation. We'll get back to you."

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You're right, no one is getting fined...why? Because it gave Artemis Racing an out when they weren't going to be ready. And as it became clear there was going to be rule changes arising from that incident, it gave Luna rossa a chance to sit out racing and push their point that they would not let that happen. The one thing that everyone forgets is, its not the fact that Bart Simpson died that put them behind, sure it was a tragedy, A REAL TRAGEDY. But that happened on the LAST sailing day of boat 1. If their second boat was ready to launch soon after that incident, they could've grieved for Andrew and re-started their campaign relatively easily. There are a lot of British sailors e.g Ben Ainslie on Oracle racing who were close friends with Andrew Simpson and who were able to resume their training soon after the tragedy. It was the fact that the Artemis campaign was so far behind schedule, they had one boat that failed and another that had serious structural issues. The design was a failure which had to change direction (to incorporate foiling) very close to the end of its design process, and which still does not meet the AC72 class rule compliance requirements. There's no poor disrespected Kiwi crap going on here, just looking at the situation for what it really is. Something a lot of people refuse to see or think its not relevant. In 1999 Martin Wizner from DeSafio Espanol died instantly when the broken boom hit him in the head. Yet they carried on under their own steam, on schedule, no bending of the rules to accommodate them, no dispensation, and their boat measured before they sailed each day.

Actually, LR initiated the request for fines to be waived, not AR, and it was for LR's own reasons, not any charitable offer to AR.

 

And as for AR being ready to race by July 4, they were to have the Blue Boat ready by mid June had it not been for the accident. The sail that involved the accident was to be the last involving the Red Boat, and had it not been for that accident, they would have had all personnel immediately prepping the Blue Boat. The beams had already been redesigned from the Red Boat, and the work related to the safety committees new rules were almost assuredly overkill for the wind limits. They would not have had to do most of that, and the rudders they are using were created for the Blue Boat before the safety committees new rules. The accident absolutely added at least a month to their preparation time for the Blue Boat. Had it not been for the accident, they would have been doing what they are now doing, but many weeks ago.

 

So give it a damned rest. AR had a poor first design, but their second design is looking pretty good to anyone being objective. We'll see how fast it is, eventually, but the drumbeat against AR is beyond stale.

Their second boat looks good because it doesn't measure. The only way it would survive the load testing was to build it in excess of the weight requirements in the AC72 class rule. And the one thing a lot of people would like to see is a video of Artemis racing thanking the rest of the teams for agreeing to allow them to carry on with their campaign. The only reason they are sailing today is because ETNZ and Luna Rossa allowed them to.

There is ZERO evidence that they would not have measured or that the boat would not have been structurally sound as things would have been had the accident not occurred, and there is no evidence that any of the post-crash alterations enhanced performance (more likely the contrary, adding 100s of KGs).

 

You keep pulling crap out of your ass and trying to pass it off as fact to support your shit slinging.

Shit slinging! Speaking the truth is NOT shit slinging! Its people like you that can't see the wood from the trees! Artemis is behind schedule and the rest of the teams are accommodating them, not because Andrew Simpson died but because their campaign management from start to finish has been piss poor!

Im not saying having them on the water is a bad thing, im just saying, look at the big picture. The whole event has been catered towards Artemis, all for what?? so they can sail a few races in a semi final they shouldn't even be in, that they have not acquired any points whatsoever to qualify for, that they (in theory) have no chance of winning?? And if they did it would turn into even more of a farce because the Artemis boat isn't even AC72 class compliant! The Louis Vuitton has become a joke because of the exhibition races that have become a staple in this cycle. Even ACEA has given up on it and publicly stated its all about September and the Americas Cup. There's more to this than Artemis's "triumphant" return. Triumphant because the other teams and the event organisers have bent over backwards to allow them to return?? But i guess its the same old story... forget about everyone and everything, forget about everything that's happened because Artemis have triumphantly returned.

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Pity the poor bastard in the ETNZ shore crew that has to fix 300kg of weight each time they race AR, then take it off again.

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So give it a damned rest.

I reckon too.

 

I think we all understand the fraught big picture of the Artemis track in this Cup Challenge story. And we all understand the normal racing and regatta standards of being in the box on time and ready to race according to the published racing schedule are not being applied to the front end of the LVC, primarily because of the distortion of having only 3 challengers - this is the one feature which has let Artemis off the hook of being late to the challenger event, everything else has been a subset responding to circumstances arising along the way, including political crap.

 

In praising the effort and tenacity of the whole Artemis team for getting a boat out and sailing I think we all understand the dispensations that have been offered, fairly or unfairly, even to the point where Artemis could theoretically be a semi and finals winner. Other than getting away with being late to the start of racing, Artemis should of course have to meet all the race and measurement standards in place, mutally agreed dispensations notwithstanding.

 

We all know this is a non-standard AC in its vision and it has long turned out highly problematic in its implementation. So why does the angst and criticism about it all have to be recycled like an endless liturgical closed loop. The LVC has ended up a patchwork event and Artemis turning up is just another patch that will make it a better as a spectacle to this spectator.

 

I'm full on for each team protecting its legitimate competitive self-interest against the wiles of others including event sponsors and management, within the Rules and Protocol and Disputes processes. I'm also full-on for the best ongoing patch ups possible to make the best of the whole AC program. Including seeing just how high the potential of the Artemis design space might be in the time available. Isn't that more interesting than endless carping about 'the true facts' we are already well aware of and most of which I have long agreed with.

 

I just don't have an outcome for endless tiresome criticism no matter the righteousness of it, I want to enjoy the sailing available and all the teams getting the most out of their flying boats, the informed discussion of the SA talent base on these threads really helpsthis enjoyment.

 

I honestly can't figure the intended outcomes of those who at this stage of the game continually crap on nearly every aspect of the Event and comparing over and over it to how the world should be.

 

It'll soon be over ya know, don't ya wanna enjoy it for what's available rather than what's not? Four set of colours out on the Bay for JNavis to try and keep track of. Awesome. Four boat sheds for MM to keep an eye on. Awesome. Four programs finally all out sailing in flying boats. Awesome. It's the best its ever gonna get for AC 72 wings on water. Get it. Get it.

 

Hey give it a damned rest Maricat!

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It'll soon be over ya know, don't ya wanna enjoy it for what's available rather than what's not?

Because when presented with a Horse's Arse, it is not my preference to kiss it or pretend it is fragrant.

 

However as far as Artemis goes, this is the moment to offer congratulations for getting B2 on the water and good luck in the semis.

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Pity the poor bastard in the ETNZ shore crew that has to fix 300kg of weight each time they race AR, then take it off again.

 

They don't have to fix it do they - it's just there as an option should they like to match AR's declared weight?

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It's a great result from AR given where they were only a short time ago. The faces back on the dock said it all really.

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... recycled like an endless liturgical closed loop ..

 

 

Too good to let it pass unmentioned

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It'll soon be over ya know, don't ya wanna enjoy it for what's available rather than what's not?

Because when presented with a Horse's Arse, it is not my preference to kiss it or pretend it is fragrant.

 

However as far as Artemis goes, this is the moment to offer congratulations for getting B2 on the water and good luck in the semis.

Yes, understand the dilemma of your first line, especially as the Horses Arse is the only AC game that's in town. And agree the second line is the right attitude at this moment

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Artemis Speed Data July 25, 2013

 

Upwind

 

Wind speed 17.2 kts

Best speed 17 kts

 

Downwind

 

Wind speed 18.0. kts

Best speed 34 kts

Radar been bought?

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