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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
sarah0809

Artemis?

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Actually what was reported is that LR has had 80 days on the water vs AR's 8 days.

 

AR has disproven so many posters here their is a shortage of crow, and Jasper is at the front of the line.

 

Where now are all the insightful kiwi geniuses that said they should have done the right thing and withdraw ?

 

Back under their rocks ?

 

In the days leading up to the jury decision you were posting smack like an immature little boy but when the decision was announced you suddenly became very busy with "meetings" As a sore loser you are the last person to be calling out others

 

Well fuck me dead, I must have been watching a totally different race to the whole rest of the wide world, cos I coulda sworn that AR got beaten today.

Not only that, I coulda sworn that they got beaten by a margin of nearly 2 minutes by a team that:

 

1. Ripped their sail and by their own admission did not sail optimally upwind.

2. Had a totally piss poor start, and

3. Clearly took the foot off the pedal for the last two legs.

 

Did anyone else see that or was it just me?

 

Its all very well to get up on your soapbox and say that AR did really well all things considered. Certainly they did better than I thought they might.

 

However, to suggest they were remotely competitive even against a coasting LR is a bit like saying my 4 year old will take out the next Tour De France cos, well damn it he rides a two wheeler really well considering he is only 4!

 

*yawn* get back to me when you have something based in reality rather than cognitive dissonance.

Exactly. Here is how I saw the race:

 

  • NO goes very aggressively across LR's bows at the start. CD says be my guest - I don't want to be anywhere near you thanks.
  • LR sails around AR at first gybe and makes gains for the rest of the race bar one leg where they lose 8.6 seconds.
  • Commentators cream themselves because margin is under 10 minutes.
  • Spectators listen to commentators and consequently convince themselves they have seen a magnificent spectacle of close racing.

This is typical of the whole approach to AR fiasco - act as if the team are the unwitting victims of events outside their control. I am wondering how they are going to convince themselves that the remaining three races are interesting.

totally agree and i am a big fan of NO

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Actually what was reported is that LR has had 80 days on the water vs AR's 8 days.

 

AR has disproven so many posters here their is a shortage of crow, and Jasper is at the front of the line.

 

Where now are all the insightful kiwi geniuses that said they should have done the right thing and withdraw ?

 

Back under their rocks ?

 

In the days leading up to the jury decision you were posting smack like an immature little boy but when the decision was announced you suddenly became very busy with "meetings" As a sore loser you are the last person to be calling out others

 

Well fuck me dead, I must have been watching a totally different race to the whole rest of the wide world, cos I coulda sworn that AR got beaten today.

Not only that, I coulda sworn that they got beaten by a margin of nearly 2 minutes by a team that:

 

1. Ripped their sail and by their own admission did not sail optimally upwind.

2. Had a totally piss poor start, and

3. Clearly took the foot off the pedal for the last two legs.

 

Did anyone else see that or was it just me?

 

Its all very well to get up on your soapbox and say that AR did really well all things considered. Certainly they did better than I thought they might.

 

However, to suggest they were remotely competitive even against a coasting LR is a bit like saying my 4 year old will take out the next Tour De France cos, well damn it he rides a two wheeler really well considering he is only 4!

 

*yawn* get back to me when you have something based in reality rather than cognitive dissonance.

Exactly. Here is how I saw the race:

 

  • NO goes very aggressively across LR's bows at the start. CD says be my guest - I don't want to be anywhere near you thanks.
  • LR sails around AR at first gybe and makes gains for the rest of the race bar one leg where they lose 8.6 seconds.
  • Commentators cream themselves because margin is under 10 minutes.
  • Spectators listen to commentators and consequently convince themselves they have seen a magnificent spectacle of close racing.

This is typical of the whole approach to AR fiasco - act as if the team are the unwitting victims of events outside their control. I am wondering how they are going to convince themselves that the remaining three races are interesting.

totally agree and i am a big fan of NO

 

Cue the music and..

 

"I can fly higher than an eeeeagle...because you are the wind beneath my wiiiings!"

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of the two boats as they raced today given another 6 months development AR has the greater potential for increase in performance, albeit starting from a lower baseline.

Pure speculation. Too bad the regatta will be well and truly over by then, eh.

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of the two boats as they raced today given another 6 months development AR has the greater potential for increase in performance, albeit starting from a lower baseline.

Pure speculation. Too bad the regatta will be well and truly over by then, eh.

 

I dunno SBD, I think AR would be the fastest team out there if only:

 

* They had 12 months more to develop,

* They hadn't demolished their first boat and first 2 wings,

* They hadn't completely chosen the wrong concept out of the box, and

* ...

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of the two boats as they raced today given another 6 months development AR has the greater potential for increase in performance, albeit starting from a lower baseline.

Pure speculation. Too bad the regatta will be well and truly over by then, eh.

 

I dunno SBD, I think AR would be the fastest team out there if only:

 

* They had 12 months more to develop,

* They hadn't demolished their first boat and first 2 wings,

* They hadn't completely chosen the wrong concept out of the box, and

* ...

Ha, ha. Yeah. Maybe. :)

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of the two boats as they raced today given another 6 months development AR has the greater potential for increase in performance, albeit starting from a lower baseline.

Pure speculation. Too bad the regatta will be well and truly over by then, eh.

 

I dunno SBD, I think AR would be the fastest team out there if only:

 

* They had 12 months more to develop,

* They hadn't demolished their first boat and first 2 wings,

* They hadn't completely chosen the wrong concept out of the box, and

* ...

Ha, ha. Yeah. Maybe. :)

 

I've noticed that pretty much every Hollywood movie has a happy ending no matter what.

You know, little boy and his puppy take a direct hit from a nuke and when the dust settles the boy has a bloody lip and the puppy has a limp.

 

Is it a cultural thing that Americans just can't bear an unhappy ending?

Does the phrase "shit happens" just not apply?

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Sad to think Artemis could be finished in a few days time, if they can't get past Luna Rossa, which looks the case. It seems like they've only just started. Without the time on the water they may only end up doing 120 hours with the Blue Boat and you wonder how much learning will they have achieved to date.? So far time on the water has been proven to be king and it must have ETNZ a fair way ahead of Oracle as well. Boat handling and fybes can dictate the race as we saw in todays race Luna Rossa vs Artemis. Scary to think the Kiwis have mastered all this and have their boat in the shed with go faster mods and some upwind tricks.

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Sad to think Artemis could be finished in a few days time

Yes it is. I still believe they have the strongest sailing team and as far as it's possible to tell, the boat seems to have promise. But (of course) they needed to be where they are today six months ago.

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You will have to pardon cosmicfuckwit, s/he has been on a mission to rage against anything I write since I correctly pointed out what a gutless loser s/he is.

Wants to open his/her trap, flinging shit and acting like a big girl because of the protection the internet affords him/her, when in fact s/he would never have the guts to say this shit to anyones fact because s/he would get flattened.

 

This is why I have him/her on ignore, but unfortunately I can see the drivel s/he writes when you quote him/her.

 

So don't worry, s/he doesn't mean any of the stuff written. Its only his/her gutless way of showing how "super tuff" s/he is, cos in the real world s/he is afraid of his/her own shadow.

 

Seriously, what a fuckwit.

 

You have done nothing but shit on this campaign from day one, and refuse to give it a rest.

 

Still think they should withdraw, like the troll takootie/hasting/kia ora, who can't figure out why they would want to proceed ? I guess that makes him a confirmed quitter - and you've put yourself in the same class.

 

This team goes off and accomplishes a tremendous feat given their position on May 9th and you are lost for a good word. I think you and others seriously under estimate the tenacity of PC, NO, LP IP and the entire AR team. Time for some humble pie.

 

Oh yeah, can't wait to see this hit the front page instead of some 100 year old tub :)

Probably a good time to revisit this post as well Jasper, since you've done nothing but shit on this team from the start.

And I'll accept an apology any time Jasper!

You really are a gutless wimp.

I questioned your whiny behaviour ONCE! Long ago and for hearing vitriol in a JS written interview.

By that performance you must have half the posters on here, on ignore.

You talk about respect/disrespect. What a joke coming from you.

I've no time to go back and wade through your 3500K posts to find your absurdities and disrespect but there are plenty there and no amount of backpeddling now can remove those from the historical fact.

Stop trying to be the nice guy now and just hope to god you don't meet up with a Craig Monk on a dark night in Auckland/Wellington.

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AR did better than I thought they would, and they can only get better.

 

Because Big Blue is a new generation II boat I would expect to see a greater degree of development than what is now possible from LR,

who have already picked the low-hanging fruit as far as further development goes.

 

The big question is, can AR do it within the next 3 races?

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...

The big question is, can AR do it within the next 3 races?

Nope: LR will DNF them tomorrow.

 

Haha, that's what we thought would happen in the first race!

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I was really surprised with how aggressive AR were sailing considering their time on the water. They must have been shitting bricks for a fair amount of that race. I'm not defending the mess they've got themselves into at all, but it was a ballsy effort to go out and race being that green in a boat that's barely had a shake down. So I give them credit for that.

I will admit that I was quite shocked to see them in front at the start. But with Prada overtaking them so easily and knowing that there were most likely buttoned off to keep the wing together, the writing was on the wall for AR. I think Prada will DNF them a few times in this series also.

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I gess a lot depends on whats impeeding there flybes

 

If its aspeckts of bote balance and desing, maybe theres kwite a low cieling there going to hit.

 

Wheras if its pewerly tyming and helming, just poss they coud start naling a few kwite soon.

 

(Kepe studying those heli shots of TNZ, boys)

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Sad to think Artemis could be finished in a few days time

Yes it is. I still believe they have the strongest sailing team and as far as it's possible to tell, the boat seems to have promise. But (of course) they needed to be where they are today six months ago.

Imho, people keep forgetting the limitation of AR's wing. W3 hasn't been really looked at, but by all accounts it's identical to W2 - and although that was in theory similar to OR's wings, in all the sailing Big Red did the wing appeared "wooden", with very little twist.

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Almost everyone is saying the NO had a great start and CD had a shocker....

 

To play Devil's advocate, NO had a great start, but how close was he? It looked like 1mm! which is great, but that really isn't giving yourself anything for an error by yourself or others..... CD must have known that they had an advantage in the gybes and had to back themselves on that and planned for a clean start. How much do you trust the start line equipment to not call you over even if you aren't?

 

Not saying that NO didn't do an amazing job, only that he gave himself, the rest of the crew or the electronic equipment no margin for error.....

 

What would people's reaction have been had he been over by 1mm? How about 'what an idiot, he screwed their whole race'.

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Yes, it apperes to be the evil "third way" solutoin which semes to work so well for TNZ/LR, but the meer sudjeschin of which exited PC to parrocksisms of mock outraidge

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Semes to me: Best that cd happen (for TNZs prospeckts) wd be for

 

a ) Artemis to prevale in semis, or

 

 

Careful .. the second that happened (god forbid), Defender and CoR would also have a majority and they would force through a Prot change switching to the "long", upwind-biased course for the AC ..

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Semes to me: Best that cd happen (for TNZs prospeckts) wd be for

 

a ) Artemis to prevale in semis, or

 

Careful .. the second that happened (god forbid), Defender and CoR would also have a majority and they would force through a Prot change switching to the "long", upwind-biased course for the AC ..

Atta boy Xlotty - now you're with the programme B) . Now 3 more races and LR-ETNZ can vote to bring back the higher wind limits :P

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Semes to me: Best that cd happen (for TNZs prospeckts) wd be for

 

a ) Artemis to prevale in semis, or

 

Careful .. the second that happened (god forbid), Defender and CoR would also have a majority and they would force through a Prot change switching to the "long", upwind-biased course for the AC ..

Atta boy Xlotty - now you're with the programme B) . Now 3 more races and LR-ETNZ can vote to bring back the higher wind limits :P

 

summens up visoins of a struggling pudel strapped on back on opperating chambre table with legs splaid & elecktrodes applyed to tender arias.

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Do the starts really matter? These craft make 100's of metres in a single puff or awesome fybe ... It seems to be only a first rounding mark prize. Unless the boats are so even, I doubt starts will matter until OR vs ETNZ

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NO was the man in that start, CD didnt get a show in, he was way to conservative.

It's hard to say if it was well-calculated (need to watch that again) but AR looked to be accelerating too soon to the line; but then (intentionally? Luck?) blocked LR out by luffing up between LR and the line, maybe because they were early and were forced too; then pulled the trigger and hit the line with nail-bitingly close to Zero on the countdown, at speed and accelerating like a Banshee.

 

It may be the best start we've seen - accidental or not.

I think it was clearly intentional, aggressive move, NO would have been pretty stuff in the position he was in, CD thought we got this, relaxed NO fired one across the bow, and the rest (of the start) is history, It was a great move, nothing less. The only thing that would have improved it was if they held off (forgetting about time on distance) and luffed CD up and past the pin just squeezing through themselves and turning a 6 second advantage at the mark to a 20 second (or more one)

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Did anyone else catch the fact that AR had the top of their wing inverted to provide positive righting moment on one of the upwind legs?

 

The camera shot showed the top of their wing with LR in the distance for long enough to take a good look at it. The wing wasn't just 'min drag flat' it was inverted.

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Actually what was reported is that LR has had 80 days on the water vs AR's 8 days.

 

AR has disproven so many posters here their is a shortage of crow, and Jasper is at the front of the line.

 

Where now are all the insightful kiwi geniuses that said they should have done the right thing and withdraw ?

 

Back under their rocks ?

 

In the days leading up to the jury decision you were posting smack like an immature little boy but when the decision was announced you suddenly became very busy with "meetings" As a sore loser you are the last person to be calling out others

 

Well fuck me dead, I must have been watching a totally different race to the whole rest of the wide world, cos I coulda sworn that AR got beaten today.

Not only that, I coulda sworn that they got beaten by a margin of nearly 2 minutes by a team that:

 

1. Ripped their sail and by their own admission did not sail optimally upwind.

2. Had a totally piss poor start, and

3. Clearly took the foot off the pedal for the last two legs.

 

Did anyone else see that or was it just me?

 

Its all very well to get up on your soapbox and say that AR did really well all things considered. Certainly they did better than I thought they might.

 

However, to suggest they were remotely competitive even against a coasting LR is a bit like saying my 4 year old will take out the next Tour De France cos, well damn it he rides a two wheeler really well considering he is only 4!

 

*yawn* get back to me when you have something based in reality rather than cognitive dissonance.

Only a matter of time before the excuses came out, what a surprise. You forgot that Max had a bad hair day :)

 

Still think they should have done "the right thing" and withdrawn, as they pose such a great safety risk and will never be competitive ?

 

How about the only first and only team to foil on the first day ? How about dominating the start of their first race, with almost no practice ? How about finishing within two minutes in their first race, after almost no time on the water ? Quite a few accomplishments that you choose to ignore. Seems to be a cultural thing.

 

Should I quote all your other cancerous statements about the team, and PC, that have gone on for a few months ?

 

Face it, credit where credit is due, and you have been proven wrong in almost every criticism of the team given the circumstances.

Thanks SWS, we all know you have been proven right regarding AR strength.

How many more races before OR lose their poodle ? :)

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prettyy sure thats wrong. Its a match race and and

 

NO should have held LR out at the start. He will learn to match race real quick. Lets see a close race

Pretty sure they have to go to proper course once the start signal goes...

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AR did better than I thought they would, and they can only get better.

 

Because Big Blue is a new generation II boat I would expect to see a greater degree of development than what is now possible from LR,

who have already picked the low-hanging fruit as far as further development goes.

 

The big question is, can AR do it within the next 3 races?

It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?

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seems legit

 

A crop from Sander van da Borsch photo

 

 

860112308927375111761_zpsc06dade0.jpg

 

flaunt'em

 

if you've got'em

In a world of carbon, the aluminium bars seem so out of place. Has someone been stealing fittings out of disabled toilet for AR?

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After finally getting to watch the whole race, my take away is that AR actually was able to carry over, really well, their more than 30 days sailing a non-foiling AC72 with their pre-start and their upwind work. People forget that they actually are not totally green in AC72 sailing. While they have obviously learned a lot over the past week, the entire race was lost on the fact that they have only sailed a FOILING AC72. People should not be surprised that they were able to gain ground on every upwind leg, or that NO did well in the pre-start/start . . . . they were actually able to get a lot of good, applicable practice on those elements with the red boat, which would not be THAT much different for those elements of the race. But downwind . . . the difference is still currently ugly.

 

The good thing for AR is that they have the best person in the entire business at the helm for learning to get up to speed with the foiling. The problem is obviously time, and that he is not the only one involved with these kinds of boats, and he is having to learn more than just how to steer and trim this boat, but rather how to do it with a big team. Good thing Cayard named IP to be the Skip, allows NO to focus on what he knows best.

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After finally getting to watch the whole race, my take away is that AR actually was able to carry over, really well, their more than 30 days sailing a non-foiling AC72 with their pre-start and their upwind work. People forget that they actually are not totally green in AC72 sailing. While they have obviously learned a lot over the past week, the entire race was lost on the fact that they have only sailed a FOILING AC72. People should not be surprised that they were able to gain ground on every upwind leg, or that NO did well in the pre-start/start . . . . they were actually able to get a lot of good, applicable practice on those elements with the red boat, which would not be THAT much different for those elements of the race. But downwind . . . the difference is still currently ugly.

 

The good thing for AR is that they have the best person in the entire business at the helm for learning to get up to speed with the foiling. The problem is obviously time, and that he is not the only one involved with these kinds of boats, and he is having to learn more than just how to steer and trim this boat, but rather how to do it with a big team. Good thing Cayard named IP to be the Skip, allows NO to focus on what he knows best.

AR has the best person at the helm ? I'm not so sure : NO is brilliant ,agressive ,talented and and..But he has no experience helming multihulls. Yes they have the best person ,but it's Peyron .Even an arrogant Bertarelli gave him the helm in the second Valencia race .

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Actually what was reported is that LR has had 80 days on the water vs AR's 8 days.

 

AR has disproven so many posters here their is a shortage of crow, and Jasper is at the front of the line.

 

Where now are all the insightful kiwi geniuses that said they should have done the right thing and withdraw ?

 

Back under their rocks ?

 

In the days leading up to the jury decision you were posting smack like an immature little boy but when the decision was announced you suddenly became very busy with "meetings" As a sore loser you are the last person to be calling out others

 

Well fuck me dead, I must have been watching a totally different race to the whole rest of the wide world, cos I coulda sworn that AR got beaten today.

Not only that, I coulda sworn that they got beaten by a margin of nearly 2 minutes by a team that:

 

1. Ripped their sail and by their own admission did not sail optimally upwind.

2. Had a totally piss poor start, and

3. Clearly took the foot off the pedal for the last two legs.

 

Did anyone else see that or was it just me?

 

Its all very well to get up on your soapbox and say that AR did really well all things considered. Certainly they did better than I thought they might.

 

However, to suggest they were remotely competitive even against a coasting LR is a bit like saying my 4 year old will take out the next Tour De France cos, well damn it he rides a two wheeler really well considering he is only 4!

 

*yawn* get back to me when you have something based in reality rather than cognitive dissonance.

Exactly. Here is how I saw the race:

 

  • NO goes very aggressively across LR's bows at the start. CD says be my guest - I don't want to be anywhere near you thanks.
  • LR sails around AR at first gybe and makes gains for the rest of the race bar one leg where they lose 8.6 seconds.
  • Commentators cream themselves because margin is under 10 minutes.
  • Spectators listen to commentators and consequently convince themselves they have seen a magnificent spectacle of close racing.

This is typical of the whole approach to AR fiasco - act as if the team are the unwitting victims of events outside their control. I am wondering how they are going to convince themselves that the remaining three races are interesting.

 

Actually, the whole point is that fools like you kept calling for AR to do the "right thing" and pull out, that they were surely going to be a hazard to themselves and others.

 

That you fools kept ignoring that EVERYONE that matters, and that includes the other teams, wanted AR to be able to participate. That it would be good for all of them, for this AC and the future.

 

None of the other competitors were concerned that AR would be a hazard if they actually were able to recover in time to race, surely because they knew AR was full of pros who would not race if they actually were not in control enough to be safe. But you guys knew better.

 

Many of us believed that with a brand new, innovative class, AR might be able to come up with something that could at least partially overcome what would obviously be a deficit in practice and boat optimization, but more than anything else, we just were hoping for the guys on AR that they could make something out of an incredibly shitty campaign, and for ourselves to be able to see one more of these incredible machines on the water. There was never a prediction that AR would win, or even any great hopes that they would win, just that they would make it. But it seems that you guys must be the types that quit when things don't go your way, and you think everyone else should do the same.

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Has TT confirmed yet that he will fund a team for AC35 and, therefore, all of the work they have put in (haters gotta hate....) are part of the wider AR plan ??

 

I'd like to see them in NZ.

 

BJL

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Not really sure what I'm missing here.

AR just in the water.

Millions and millions spent.

Boat way behind the 8 ball.

 

For the life of me, I cannot understand any club/sponsor deciding to put throw all that dosh at a boat that will not win.

Through all prior defender series that I have followed, there are a bunch of challengers that are totally un-competitive.

For Christ bloody sake, if a man is going to spend millions on a boat, he should do it to win, not just to turn up and say "I did it".

That is what 75% - 85% of them do.

 

If the Kiwis can arrive at their first cup and be front runners - on the Doctors doorstep - then why don't others do the same thing?

 

Seriously, it isn't just because it is a bunch of Kiwis that make them so special.

The reality is - other challengers just don't take it seriously.

 

Am I totally off the wall???

 

Back to AR. What a complete waste of money. Is it all PC's problem?

 

This sort of crap totally frustrates me .... Sorry, just getting it off my chest! But for the life of me, it is so totally bloody daft.

 

Their are so many gems of naysayers on this thread popping off like idiots, it's hard to pick the best from such a great selection of posts that are so far off the mark and purely politically based.

 

After today's performance by AR, after only 8 days on the water vs LR's 80, this one by three different sock puppets clearly stands out as one of the best , if not the top post for being most politically biased and inaccurate. I guess LR may just take them seriously after such a short time on the water.

 

What a pleasant surprise AR provided.

 

This is my vote for the top "idiot" post of the thread.

Ya know... I try not to bag Atemis so much but then people come out with posts like this one! After only 8 days on the water blah blah blah. Look, they are PROFESSIONAL sports people, competing in a high stakes competition with MILLIONS of dollars and national pride on the line. (well one team has national pride on the line anyway) They're not children competing in a competition where you get a trophy or a certificate for participation with your Mum waiting for you on the finish line to give you a big hug. If you turn up to the Americas Cup, you turn up to win the Americas Cup. In terms of the Luna Rossa situation, they entered late in the piece, and they entered the only viable way they could. They bought a design package which at the time for them was obviously a good idea (proven today) They then refined that design and are on track to face the form team in the LVC final. If the Kiwis make a mistake or have a major gear failure (unlikely as it might be) The Italians are there and ready to race and take the Americas Cup. Luna Rossa are in a position where they could realistically race Oracle Racing and have an outside chance of pulling off an upset. They know that and are ready to take any opportunity that might present itself. Artemis are well off the pace. Their boat is 2nd generation and is clearly not in any way faster or more maneuverable than Luna Rossa's Generation one boat. Luna Rossa has so much more potential than Artemis does. Its just sad that in all this "Feel good" emotional Cinderella story stuff thats come out the "Win the Americas Cup" mentality has got lost in the shuffle. ETNZ, Luna Rossa and OTUSA are here for one reason, and one reason only...To win The Americas Cup. Artemis, it would seem, to gain as much sympathy votes as they can before they're sent packing.

 

Hogwash!!! There are different points in the AC where you are going to focus on different things. I am pleased as punch to see another AC72 on the water and to see the guys on AR make something out of a situation where all things crumbled apart, including the loss of their mate. It is not as though they just had a mildly rough time, and we are rooting on an underdog at the expense of the more professional team. I hope LR wins if it is clearly the case that they are the better team. And that will likely be the case. On the other hand, if AR's designers did come up with a better design, and the sailors are that damned good that they can overcome their lack of boat time, then THAT will be a great story. Either way, I hope the best team wins, and I think all of us that are cheering AR's achievements feel the same way. AR is not there to "gain sympathy votes", they are passionate sailors and pros trying to be the best they can be, for now, for Bart, and for their future.

 

Some of you guys are truly . . . . well, forget it.

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I was really surprised with how aggressive AR were sailing considering their time on the water. They must have been shitting bricks for a fair amount of that race. I'm not defending the mess they've got themselves into at all, but it was a ballsy effort to go out and race being that green in a boat that's barely had a shake down. So I give them credit for that.

I will admit that I was quite shocked to see them in front at the start. But with Prada overtaking them so easily and knowing that there were most likely buttoned off to keep the wing together, the writing was on the wall for AR. I think Prada will DNF them a few times in this series also.

 

The question will be "who improves more?" LR by fixing their boat or AR by fixing their maneuvers and optimizing their trim? LR's crew work does not look like it has much room for improvement, and AR will have little ability to make much in the way of improvements to their equipment as they just need to have some stability in that arena so they can improve their crew-work. Both will improve over the course of the Semis, but who more?

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After finally getting to watch the whole race, my take away is that AR actually was able to carry over, really well, their more than 30 days sailing a non-foiling AC72 with their pre-start and their upwind work. People forget that they actually are not totally green in AC72 sailing. While they have obviously learned a lot over the past week, the entire race was lost on the fact that they have only sailed a FOILING AC72. People should not be surprised that they were able to gain ground on every upwind leg, or that NO did well in the pre-start/start . . . . they were actually able to get a lot of good, applicable practice on those elements with the red boat, which would not be THAT much different for those elements of the race. But downwind . . . the difference is still currently ugly.

 

The good thing for AR is that they have the best person in the entire business at the helm for learning to get up to speed with the foiling. The problem is obviously time, and that he is not the only one involved with these kinds of boats, and he is having to learn more than just how to steer and trim this boat, but rather how to do it with a big team. Good thing Cayard named IP to be the Skip, allows NO to focus on what he knows best.

AR has the best person at the helm ? I'm not so sure : NO is brilliant ,agressive ,talented and and..But he has no experience helming multihulls. Yes they have the best person ,but it's Peyron .Even an arrogant Bertarelli gave him the helm in the second Valencia race .

 

I am a HUGE LP fan, but NO is helming because he is the best they have for this boat. I think Loick would probably agree to that. You would probably have an argument if they were still sailing a non-foiling AC72, but that is not the case now. NO has plenty of apparent wind sailing experience, and has certainly sailed multis a bunch, but the big thing is that he has WAY more experience with foiling than LP. It is obvious his non-foiling work is fine, as AR was able to actually outperform LR on the upwind beats, while the deficit was entirely created downwind. I would bet that LP would be the first to say that they are better off having NO at the helm downwind. Unfortunately, he needs about 3 more weeks of time on the wheel, as would anyone, before he could really start getting the most out of the boat.

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After finally getting to watch the whole race, my take away is that AR actually was able to carry over, really well, their more than 30 days sailing a non-foiling AC72 with their pre-start and their upwind work. People forget that they actually are not totally green in AC72 sailing. While they have obviously learned a lot over the past week, the entire race was lost on the fact that they have only sailed a FOILING AC72. People should not be surprised that they were able to gain ground on every upwind leg, or that NO did well in the pre-start/start . . . . they were actually able to get a lot of good, applicable practice on those elements with the red boat, which would not be THAT much different for those elements of the race. But downwind . . . the difference is still currently ugly.

 

The good thing for AR is that they have the best person in the entire business at the helm for learning to get up to speed with the foiling. The problem is obviously time, and that he is not the only one involved with these kinds of boats, and he is having to learn more than just how to steer and trim this boat, but rather how to do it with a big team. Good thing Cayard named IP to be the Skip, allows NO to focus on what he knows best.

AR has the best person at the helm ? I'm not so sure : NO is brilliant ,agressive ,talented and and..But he has no experience helming multihulls. Yes they have the best person ,but it's Peyron .Even an arrogant Bertarelli gave him the helm in the second Valencia race .

 

I am a HUGE LP fan, but NO is helming because he is the best they have for this boat. I think Loick would probably agree to that. You would probably have an argument if they were still sailing a non-foiling AC72, but that is not the case now. NO has plenty of apparent wind sailing experience, and has certainly sailed multis a bunch, but the big thing is that he has WAY more experience with foiling than LP. It is obvious his non-foiling work is fine, as AR was able to actually outperform LR on the upwind beats, while the deficit was entirely created downwind. I would bet that LP would be the first to say that they are better off having NO at the helm downwind. Unfortunately, he needs about 3 more weeks of time on the wheel, as would anyone, before he could really start getting the most out of the boat.

Well ,you're probably right concerning foiling experience . By the way ,i'm afraid this problem is not important : NO as LP are out of time ,and it's a pity .AR has a good potential ,but too late...It seems their wing has a lot of raw power ,but the system foils/rudder looks a bit agricultural . Is it your impression ?

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After finally getting to watch the whole race, my take away is that AR actually was able to carry over, really well, their more than 30 days sailing a non-foiling AC72 with their pre-start and their upwind work. People forget that they actually are not totally green in AC72 sailing. While they have obviously learned a lot over the past week, the entire race was lost on the fact that they have only sailed a FOILING AC72. People should not be surprised that they were able to gain ground on every upwind leg, or that NO did well in the pre-start/start . . . . they were actually able to get a lot of good, applicable practice on those elements with the red boat, which would not be THAT much different for those elements of the race. But downwind . . . the difference is still currently ugly.

 

The good thing for AR is that they have the best person in the entire business at the helm for learning to get up to speed with the foiling. The problem is obviously time, and that he is not the only one involved with these kinds of boats, and he is having to learn more than just how to steer and trim this boat, but rather how to do it with a big team. Good thing Cayard named IP to be the Skip, allows NO to focus on what he knows best.

AR has the best person at the helm ? I'm not so sure : NO is brilliant ,agressive ,talented and and..But he has no experience helming multihulls. Yes they have the best person ,but it's Peyron .Even an arrogant Bertarelli gave him the helm in the second Valencia race .

 

I am a HUGE LP fan, but NO is helming because he is the best they have for this boat. I think Loick would probably agree to that. You would probably have an argument if they were still sailing a non-foiling AC72, but that is not the case now. NO has plenty of apparent wind sailing experience, and has certainly sailed multis a bunch, but the big thing is that he has WAY more experience with foiling than LP. It is obvious his non-foiling work is fine, as AR was able to actually outperform LR on the upwind beats, while the deficit was entirely created downwind. I would bet that LP would be the first to say that they are better off having NO at the helm downwind. Unfortunately, he needs about 3 more weeks of time on the wheel, as would anyone, before he could really start getting the most out of the boat.

Well ,you're probably right concerning foiling experience . By the way ,i'm afraid this problem is not important : NO as LP are out of time ,and it's a pity .AR has a good potential ,but too late...It seems their wing has a lot of raw power ,but the system foils/rudder looks a bit agricultural . Is it your impression ?

 

Hard to say. Don't know for sure how AR's dagger-foils compares to LR, but their rudder foils are surely sleeker (we know for sure they have less surface area), but harder to master. My guess, from AR's upwind performance, is that their dagger-foils are also more slippery. So, I would not say their foils/rudder are more agricultural, probably the opposite, but they simply do not have enough time to be able to take advantage of them.

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Almost everyone is saying the NO had a great start and CD had a shocker....

 

To play Devil's advocate, NO had a great start, but how close was he? It looked like 1mm! which is great, but that really isn't giving yourself anything for an error by yourself or others..... CD must have known that they had an advantage in the gybes and had to back themselves on that and planned for a clean start. How much do you trust the start line equipment to not call you over even if you aren't?

 

Not saying that NO didn't do an amazing job, only that he gave himself, the rest of the crew or the electronic equipment no margin for error.....

 

What would people's reaction have been had he been over by 1mm? How about 'what an idiot, he screwed their whole race'.

I couldn't agree more.

 

I know that I keep banging on about it, but there really is a thing about team safety culture. AR just don't have it. That was a relatively high risk maneuver for an experienced team, and probably suicidally high for an inexperienced team. What did they gain - 3s on the start line and 6s at the first mark?

 

CD backed off, and gets hammered for it by the media. I even read on the TVNZ website some commentator suggesting that CDs job could be on the line if he didn't do a better job starting - what a complete joke. Listening to him interviewed post race he actually says that their game plan was to stay out of NO's way in the prestart because they knew they had plenty of speed on them. CD made a smart decision and was rewarded with a safe start, and a 2 minute win.

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I think AR's problems are wing related sailing the downwind legs. The wing just looks wrong, camber appears to reversed in the lower third. I can't put a finger on exactly what it is but it doesn't look fast and apparently it isn't. They do seem able to sail a little lower than LR.

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Not really sure what I'm missing here.

AR just in the water.

Millions and millions spent.

Boat way behind the 8 ball.

 

For the life of me, I cannot understand any club/sponsor deciding to put throw all that dosh at a boat that will not win.

Through all prior defender series that I have followed, there are a bunch of challengers that are totally un-competitive.

For Christ bloody sake, if a man is going to spend millions on a boat, he should do it to win, not just to turn up and say "I did it".

That is what 75% - 85% of them do.

 

If the Kiwis can arrive at their first cup and be front runners - on the Doctors doorstep - then why don't others do the same thing?

 

Seriously, it isn't just because it is a bunch of Kiwis that make them so special.

The reality is - other challengers just don't take it seriously.

 

Am I totally off the wall???

 

Back to AR. What a complete waste of money. Is it all PC's problem?

 

This sort of crap totally frustrates me .... Sorry, just getting it off my chest! But for the life of me, it is so totally bloody daft.

 

Their are so many gems of naysayers on this thread popping off like idiots, it's hard to pick the best from such a great selection of posts that are so far off the mark and purely politically based.

 

After today's performance by AR, after only 8 days on the water vs LR's 80, this one by three different sock puppets clearly stands out as one of the best , if not the top post for being most politically biased and inaccurate. I guess LR may just take them seriously after such a short time on the water.

 

What a pleasant surprise AR provided.

 

This is my vote for the top "idiot" post of the thread.

Ya know... I try not to bag Atemis so much but then people come out with posts like this one! After only 8 days on the water blah blah blah. Look, they are PROFESSIONAL sports people, competing in a high stakes competition with MILLIONS of dollars and national pride on the line. (well one team has national pride on the line anyway) They're not children competing in a competition where you get a trophy or a certificate for participation with your Mum waiting for you on the finish line to give you a big hug. If you turn up to the Americas Cup, you turn up to win the Americas Cup. In terms of the Luna Rossa situation, they entered late in the piece, and they entered the only viable way they could. They bought a design package which at the time for them was obviously a good idea (proven today) They then refined that design and are on track to face the form team in the LVC final. If the Kiwis make a mistake or have a major gear failure (unlikely as it might be) The Italians are there and ready to race and take the Americas Cup. Luna Rossa are in a position where they could realistically race Oracle Racing and have an outside chance of pulling off an upset. They know that and are ready to take any opportunity that might present itself. Artemis are well off the pace. Their boat is 2nd generation and is clearly not in any way faster or more maneuverable than Luna Rossa's Generation one boat. Luna Rossa has so much more potential than Artemis does. Its just sad that in all this "Feel good" emotional Cinderella story stuff thats come out the "Win the Americas Cup" mentality has got lost in the shuffle. ETNZ, Luna Rossa and OTUSA are here for one reason, and one reason only...To win The Americas Cup. Artemis, it would seem, to gain as much sympathy votes as they can before they're sent packing.

 

Hogwash!!! There are different points in the AC where you are going to focus on different things. I am pleased as punch to see another AC72 on the water and to see the guys on AR make something out of a situation where all things crumbled apart, including the loss of their mate. It is not as though they just had a mildly rough time, and we are rooting on an underdog at the expense of the more professional team. I hope LR wins if it is clearly the case that they are the better team. And that will likely be the case. On the other hand, if AR's designers did come up with a better design, and the sailors are that damned good that they can overcome their lack of boat time, then THAT will be a great story. Either way, I hope the best team wins, and I think all of us that are cheering AR's achievements feel the same way. AR is not there to "gain sympathy votes", they are passionate sailors and pros trying to be the best they can be, for now, for Bart, and for their future.

 

Some of you guys are truly . . . . well, forget it.

I think the difference is between those of us who look at the big picture, and those of you who focus on the small picture.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the shore crew have done getting a boat in the water with post crash modifications. But overall the team has consistently missed deadlines.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the AR sailors have done with only 8 days on the water. But overall the sailors are miles behind the others, have crashed a boat, and undertake high risk maneuvers in unnecessary situations.

 

In the small picture AR getting around the racecourse without a DNF is an achievement. But overall AR are losing by 2 minutes to a 1 boat team that bought a first gen boat off another team. They are losing by a lot to a team that has significantly fewer monetary and design resources, and probably a lot less sailing talent. That AR are losing by such a large margin is no accident or fluke of nature, and points to LR being a better team than AR by a significant margin. More than that it points to AR being a major fuckup.

 

All the shouldas, couldas, maybes, buts, if onlys in the world don't change that.

 

And that is why I praise LR rather than AR for their performance. Looking at the big picture LR deserve praise, AR don't.

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I think the difference is between those of us who look at the big picture, and those of you who focus on the small picture.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the shore crew have done getting a boat in the water with post crash modifications. But overall the team has consistently missed deadlines.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the AR sailors have done with only 8 days on the water. But overall the sailors are miles behind the others, have crashed a boat, and undertake high risk maneuvers in unnecessary situations.

 

In the small picture AR getting around the racecourse without a DNF is an achievement. But overall AR are losing by 2 minutes to a 1 boat team that bought a first gen boat off another team. They are losing by a lot to a team that has significantly fewer monetary and design resources, and probably a lot less sailing talent. That AR are losing by such a large margin is no accident or fluke of nature, and points to LR being a better team than AR by a significant margin. More than that it points to AR being a major fuckup.

 

All the shouldas, couldas, maybes, buts, if onlys in the world don't change that.

 

And that is why I praise LR rather than AR for their performance. Looking at the big picture LR deserve praise, AR don't.

 

Unfortunately many people here are acting like AR were beset by a series of problems that were none of their making.

Oh you know, poor AR. Their base got hit by a series of large Tornadoes or something.

 

These problems weren't foist upon AR, they created them.

And the real shame is that it is only a handful of people in the team that created them and foist them upon the rest of the team.

 

AR have done remarkably well in the last 8 weeks or so considering all the problems they have experienced.

However, the other teams all started with the same constraints as AR (some had greater constraints in terms of finances) and yet there they are with boats and crew that are far better prepared.

 

The America's Cup is not a handicapped race. You don't figure out how fucking useless the slow teams are and then let them sail off the line early.

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I feel sorry for the AR team because even though it seemed a long shot they could recover well enough to even make it to a start line, here they are so tantalizingly close to winning a race if only they'd had a few more days of practicing flybing.

 

These have been the closest two races raced so far, they won both starts, have even eaten time out of an improved LR on a few upwind legs (and one downwind today) - the poor guys must be just tasting the possibility to actually win a race.

 

It's going to be crushing if after all this effort they get 'excused' on Saturday.

 

My hope is TT comes out with something very supportive they can hold onto. He's been a rock so far, it's a great opportunity to reinforce that course for the team.

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^^ AR, unlike OR, did launch a B1 that did not contemplate the possibility that foiling might win out. It was not designed to be able to go either way. After the (already foiling) OR1 pitchpoled and spent 3 months being rebuilt, only then did AR get taught that lesson. So yes, they missed the commitment to foiling bet, just as PC explained in his 'the numbers didn't line up right' interview back when.

 

But I still vehemently object to anyone at AR getting blamed for what happened on May 9, setting them back far worse. We saw even an ETNZ boat blow out a simple jib halyard clasp last week. Can you imagine if that part had been in the undercarriage? It didn't, but could have happened to any boat with catastrophic consequences through a bearaway.

 

I am not predicting more injury or God forbid fatalities but I'm absolutely certain we will see significant equipment failures in the weeks ahead, by other teams.

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^^ AR, unlike OR, did launch a B1 that did not contemplate the possibility that foiling might win out. It was not designed to be able to go either way. After the (already foiling) OR1 pitchpoled and spent 3 months being rebuilt, only then did AR get taught that lesson. So yes, they missed the commitment to foiling bet, just as PC explained in his 'the numbers didn't line up right' interview back when.

 

But I still vehemently object to anyone at AR getting blamed for what happened on May 9, setting them back far worse. We saw even an ETNZ boat blow out a simple jib halyard clasp last week. Can you imagine if that part had been in the undercarriage? It didn't, but could have happened to any boat with catastrophic consequences through a bearaway.

 

I am not predicting more injury or God forbid fatalities but I'm absolutely certain we will see significant equipment failures in the weeks ahead, by other teams.

I don't think 'equipment failures' are in quite the same league as a catastrophic structural failure, Stinger. 'The blame' must be sheeted home to the designer or the builder, or possibly both.

 

One hopes we'll actually hear what caused the structural failure one day.

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Not really sure what I'm missing here.

AR just in the water.

Millions and millions spent.

Boat way behind the 8 ball.

 

For the life of me, I cannot understand any club/sponsor deciding to put throw all that dosh at a boat that will not win.

Through all prior defender series that I have followed, there are a bunch of challengers that are totally un-competitive.

For Christ bloody sake, if a man is going to spend millions on a boat, he should do it to win, not just to turn up and say "I did it".

That is what 75% - 85% of them do.

 

If the Kiwis can arrive at their first cup and be front runners - on the Doctors doorstep - then why don't others do the same thing?

 

Seriously, it isn't just because it is a bunch of Kiwis that make them so special.

The reality is - other challengers just don't take it seriously.

 

Am I totally off the wall???

 

Back to AR. What a complete waste of money. Is it all PC's problem?

 

This sort of crap totally frustrates me .... Sorry, just getting it off my chest! But for the life of me, it is so totally bloody daft.

 

Their are so many gems of naysayers on this thread popping off like idiots, it's hard to pick the best from such a great selection of posts that are so far off the mark and purely politically based.

 

After today's performance by AR, after only 8 days on the water vs LR's 80, this one by three different sock puppets clearly stands out as one of the best , if not the top post for being most politically biased and inaccurate. I guess LR may just take them seriously after such a short time on the water.

 

What a pleasant surprise AR provided.

 

This is my vote for the top "idiot" post of the thread.

Ya know... I try not to bag Atemis so much but then people come out with posts like this one! After only 8 days on the water blah blah blah. Look, they are PROFESSIONAL sports people, competing in a high stakes competition with MILLIONS of dollars and national pride on the line. (well one team has national pride on the line anyway) They're not children competing in a competition where you get a trophy or a certificate for participation with your Mum waiting for you on the finish line to give you a big hug. If you turn up to the Americas Cup, you turn up to win the Americas Cup. In terms of the Luna Rossa situation, they entered late in the piece, and they entered the only viable way they could. They bought a design package which at the time for them was obviously a good idea (proven today) They then refined that design and are on track to face the form team in the LVC final. If the Kiwis make a mistake or have a major gear failure (unlikely as it might be) The Italians are there and ready to race and take the Americas Cup. Luna Rossa are in a position where they could realistically race Oracle Racing and have an outside chance of pulling off an upset. They know that and are ready to take any opportunity that might present itself. Artemis are well off the pace. Their boat is 2nd generation and is clearly not in any way faster or more maneuverable than Luna Rossa's Generation one boat. Luna Rossa has so much more potential than Artemis does. Its just sad that in all this "Feel good" emotional Cinderella story stuff thats come out the "Win the Americas Cup" mentality has got lost in the shuffle. ETNZ, Luna Rossa and OTUSA are here for one reason, and one reason only...To win The Americas Cup. Artemis, it would seem, to gain as much sympathy votes as they can before they're sent packing.

 

Hogwash!!! There are different points in the AC where you are going to focus on different things. I am pleased as punch to see another AC72 on the water and to see the guys on AR make something out of a situation where all things crumbled apart, including the loss of their mate. It is not as though they just had a mildly rough time, and we are rooting on an underdog at the expense of the more professional team. I hope LR wins if it is clearly the case that they are the better team. And that will likely be the case. On the other hand, if AR's designers did come up with a better design, and the sailors are that damned good that they can overcome their lack of boat time, then THAT will be a great story. Either way, I hope the best team wins, and I think all of us that are cheering AR's achievements feel the same way. AR is not there to "gain sympathy votes", they are passionate sailors and pros trying to be the best they can be, for now, for Bart, and for their future.

 

Some of you guys are truly . . . . well, forget it.

I think the difference is between those of us who look at the big picture, and those of you who focus on the small picture.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the shore crew have done getting a boat in the water with post crash modifications. But overall the team has consistently missed deadlines.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the AR sailors have done with only 8 days on the water. But overall the sailors are miles behind the others, have crashed a boat, and undertake high risk maneuvers in unnecessary situations.

 

In the small picture AR getting around the racecourse without a DNF is an achievement. But overall AR are losing by 2 minutes to a 1 boat team that bought a first gen boat off another team. They are losing by a lot to a team that has significantly fewer monetary and design resources, and probably a lot less sailing talent. That AR are losing by such a large margin is no accident or fluke of nature, and points to LR being a better team than AR by a significant margin. More than that it points to AR being a major fuckup.

 

All the shouldas, couldas, maybes, buts, if onlys in the world don't change that.

 

And that is why I praise LR rather than AR for their performance. Looking at the big picture LR deserve praise, AR don't.

 

They both deserve praise for different things. Sheesh, how hard is that to understand? It is part of sportsmanship to praise the loser for a good effort and any special achievements they make. There is a huge difference between that and giving the winning team their just due. LR is winning, and almost assuredly will win the Semis. They are the better team, overall, particularly because of their organization or development teams, which gave their sailing team a far superior ability to hone their skills.

 

I was raised to shake the hands of the team my team just beat, to root on a losing team in the waning moments of a game for gutting it out, for cheering when someone hobbles in at the end of a marathon, way behind the winners. That does not mean I fail to give all the credit in the world for the winner for their excellence, or act like their achievement isn't greater than those other lesser achievements. You guys are acting like there is only one team that should be given any credit for anything.

 

Damn, I'm impressed with how well the AR shore crew has put things together and how the team has performed, and after what they have gone through, I believe they deserve all the praise they can get.

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Ya know... I try not to bag Atemis so much but then people come out with posts like this one! After only 8 days on the water blah blah blah. Look, they are PROFESSIONAL sports people, competing in a high stakes competition with MILLIONS of dollars and national pride on the line. (well one team has national pride on the line anyway) They're not children competing in a competition where you get a trophy or a certificate for participation with your Mum waiting for you on the finish line to give you a big hug. If you turn up to the Americas Cup, you turn up to win the Americas Cup. In terms of the Luna Rossa situation, they entered late in the piece, and they entered the only viable way they could. They bought a design package which at the time for them was obviously a good idea (proven today) They then refined that design and are on track to face the form team in the LVC final. If the Kiwis make a mistake or have a major gear failure (unlikely as it might be) The Italians are there and ready to race and take the Americas Cup. Luna Rossa are in a position where they could realistically race Oracle Racing and have an outside chance of pulling off an upset. They know that and are ready to take any opportunity that might present itself. Artemis are well off the pace. Their boat is 2nd generation and is clearly not in any way faster or more maneuverable than Luna Rossa's Generation one boat. Luna Rossa has so much more potential than Artemis does. Its just sad that in all this "Feel good" emotional Cinderella story stuff thats come out the "Win the Americas Cup" mentality has got lost in the shuffle. ETNZ, Luna Rossa and OTUSA are here for one reason, and one reason only...To win The Americas Cup. Artemis, it would seem, to gain as much sympathy votes as they can before they're sent packing.

 

Hogwash!!! There are different points in the AC where you are going to focus on different things. I am pleased as punch to see another AC72 on the water and to see the guys on AR make something out of a situation where all things crumbled apart, including the loss of their mate. It is not as though they just had a mildly rough time, and we are rooting on an underdog at the expense of the more professional team. I hope LR wins if it is clearly the case that they are the better team. And that will likely be the case. On the other hand, if AR's designers did come up with a better design, and the sailors are that damned good that they can overcome their lack of boat time, then THAT will be a great story. Either way, I hope the best team wins, and I think all of us that are cheering AR's achievements feel the same way. AR is not there to "gain sympathy votes", they are passionate sailors and pros trying to be the best they can be, for now, for Bart, and for their future.

 

Some of you guys are truly . . . . well, forget it.

I think the difference is between those of us who look at the big picture, and those of you who focus on the small picture.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the shore crew have done getting a boat in the water with post crash modifications. But overall the team has consistently missed deadlines.

 

In the small picture I am impressed with how well the AR sailors have done with only 8 days on the water. But overall the sailors are miles behind the others, have crashed a boat, and undertake high risk maneuvers in unnecessary situations.

 

In the small picture AR getting around the racecourse without a DNF is an achievement. But overall AR are losing by 2 minutes to a 1 boat team that bought a first gen boat off another team. They are losing by a lot to a team that has significantly fewer monetary and design resources, and probably a lot less sailing talent. That AR are losing by such a large margin is no accident or fluke of nature, and points to LR being a better team than AR by a significant margin. More than that it points to AR being a major fuckup.

 

All the shouldas, couldas, maybes, buts, if onlys in the world don't change that.

 

And that is why I praise LR rather than AR for their performance. Looking at the big picture LR deserve praise, AR don't.

 

They both deserve praise for different things. Sheesh, how hard is that to understand? It is part of sportsmanship to praise the loser for a good effort and any special achievements they make. There is a huge difference between that and giving the winning team their just due. LR is winning, and almost assuredly will win the Semis. They are the better team, overall, particularly because of their organization or development teams, which gave their sailing team a far superior ability to hone their skills. But damn, I'm impressed with how well the AR shore crew has put things together and how the team has performed, and after what they have gone through, I believe they deserve all the praise they can get.

 

Nysly put

 

Those who think winning is the only thing can never truely win;

 

even when they win, they are losers in a sents

 

becoz victery for the sake of victery will be water in there hands

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I am not trying to stir the pot but curious because I feel bad for the AR sailors. They are professional but they deserved more practice. Here's the question:

 

Big red crashed on the last day it was supposed to sail, if the crash never occurred, what was the scheduled launch date of Big Blue?

 

One would assume AR had the intention of launching Big Blue before the start of the LVC RR?

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I am not trying to stir the pot but curious because I feel bad for the AR sailors. They are professional but they deserved more practice. Here's the question:

 

Big red crashed on the last day it was supposed to sail, if the crash never occurred, what was the scheduled launch date of Big Blue?

 

One would assume AR had the intention of launching Big Blue before the start of the LVC RR?

Suddenly having no confidence in structural integrity can set a program back a day or three.

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I am not trying to stir the pot but curious because I feel bad for the AR sailors. They are professional but they deserved more practice. Here's the question:

 

Big red crashed on the last day it was supposed to sail, if the crash never occurred, what was the scheduled launch date of Big Blue?

 

One would assume AR had the intention of launching Big Blue before the start of the LVC RR?

 

All academic questions. In 2 more races AR are gone and the CoR goes to TNZ.

AR will be forgotten and the major talent like NO will sign with new (higher performing) team.

 

AR were in the wrong design space from day 1 and that is a MAJOR part of the AC.

 

Team New Zealand were in pretty much the same position with NZL 82 in 03.

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^^ AR, unlike OR, did launch a B1 that did not contemplate the possibility that foiling might win out. It was not designed to be able to go either way. After the (already foiling) OR1 pitchpoled and spent 3 months being rebuilt, only then did AR get taught that lesson. So yes, they missed the commitment to foiling bet, just as PC explained in his 'the numbers didn't line up right' interview back when.

 

But I still vehemently object to anyone at AR getting blamed for what happened on May 9, setting them back far worse. We saw even an ETNZ boat blow out a simple jib halyard clasp last week. Can you imagine if that part had been in the undercarriage? It didn't, but could have happened to any boat with catastrophic consequences through a bearaway.

 

I am not predicting more injury or God forbid fatalities but I'm absolutely certain we will see significant equipment failures in the weeks ahead, by other teams.

I don't think 'equipment failures' are in quite the same league as a catastrophic structural failure, Stinger. 'The blame' must be sheeted home to the designer or the builder, or possibly both.

 

One hopes we'll actually hear what caused the structural failure one day.

 

Stingray does have a point .. if one of the connections downstairs was to fail that could be catastrophic .. and you are right the failure of a jib halyard clip is most unlikely to lead to catastrophic failure ..

 

A well organised team would recognize the difference and incorporate higher safety factors and more sophisticated inspection regimes in the components that could lead to catastrophic failure ..

 

It is clear that Artemis are not a well organised team while ETNZ are .. failures in the Artemis team tend to be major (wing beams & scheduling) while failures in the ETNZ team tend to be minor hiccups .

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^^ AR, unlike OR, did launch a B1 that did not contemplate the possibility that foiling might win out. It was not designed to be able to go either way. After the (already foiling) OR1 pitchpoled and spent 3 months being rebuilt, only then did AR get taught that lesson. So yes, they missed the commitment to foiling bet, just as PC explained in his 'the numbers didn't line up right' interview back when.

 

But I still vehemently object to anyone at AR getting blamed for what happened on May 9, setting them back far worse. We saw even an ETNZ boat blow out a simple jib halyard clasp last week. Can you imagine if that part had been in the undercarriage? It didn't, but could have happened to any boat with catastrophic consequences through a bearaway.

 

I am not predicting more injury or God forbid fatalities but I'm absolutely certain we will see significant equipment failures in the weeks ahead, by other teams.

 

Im not saying yore making it up about OR bote 1 foyling, SR, becoz I dont have tym to reserch, nor do I mutsh caer.

 

[ My reckoleckshun, FWIW, is that OR pitshpolled there first saling day after first confirmation of full foyling, by TNZ. ]

 

But I cant help notissing you seme to have a 'tell' like a poker player.

 

When you have a peace of history youd lyk to rerite, you slip in innokewus little referentses to it all over the plaice, agen and agen and agen.

 

You myt wont to rethink that tacktick, or at leest ewes it more selecktivly.

 

 

The larger poynt your post trize to maek is, to my way of thinking, self refewting ... so I will shut up now.

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Pre start ssen from the SFYC

 

Great to see from another angle. LR up on foils and...GONE. Sayanara baby.

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I think what a lot of people who don't understand the cheering for AR are missing is that people are cheering for the sailors not the very clearly lacking management and designers.

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AR did better than I thought they would, and they can only get better.

 

Because Big Blue is a new generation II boat I would expect to see a greater degree of development than what is now possible from LR,

who have already picked the low-hanging fruit as far as further development goes.

 

The big question is, can AR do it within the next 3 races?

It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?
WTF kind of sailboat racing do you do? Thanks for the comments doctor obvious...

 

At least these AR guys can catch a shift.

 

LR is sailing like dog shit. They have managed to find the longest way around the course every race thus far. That's not a winning formula no matter how fast you are...

 

How about LRs starts? Leeward gate management?

 

Piss poor for this level of racing. No excuses for that

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AR did better than I thought they would, and they can only get better.

 

Because Big Blue is a new generation II boat I would expect to see a greater degree of development than what is now possible from LR,

who have already picked the low-hanging fruit as far as further development goes.

 

The big question is, can AR do it within the next 3 races?

It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?
WTF kind of sailboat racing do you do? Thanks for the comments doctor obvious...

 

At least these AR guys can catch a shift.

 

LR is sailing like dog shit. They have managed to find the longest way around the course every race thus far. That's not a winning formula no matter how fast you are...

 

How about LRs starts? Leeward gate management?

 

Piss poor for this level of racing. No excuses for that

But you gotta admit, it looks like pretty handy dog shit, when it comes to sailing against AR. Not too bad for 2nd division teams. :)

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I think what a lot of people who don't understand the cheering for AR are missing is that people are cheering for the sailors not the very clearly lacking management and designers.

Absolutely. If those sailors were on another team, under another leader, sailing another boat, there wouldn't be a problem. But when you're on a failing team (Keyword being Team) You represent that team, and everything they have done (Or havent done) you represent what that team stands for, and the failings that team has incurred. Its part and parcel of being a part of that team. You take the good, and you take the bad. Just as Team New Zealand did in 2003. Yes Russell and friends left the team, but ultimately the team was underprepared, inexperienced with no clear leader, sailing a boat that was structurally lacking and did not perform. (deja vu anyone??) and the team (Mainly Dean Barker) shouldered the blame for a miserable, failure of a defense campaign. Those words were echoed around the world and were strongest in New Zealand. There was no...well at least they're trying hard, and its good to see them on the water and lets cheer them on back then. They lost and they lost bad. But there was no postponing any races, there was no not turning up on race day. They turned up and got their asses handed to them every race day. Thats what Artemis needs to realise, in The America's Cup you can sugarcoat it all you want, but its not about how hard you try, its about winning and losing...like the Oracle video says: There is no second place.

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It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?WTF kind of sailboat racing do you do? Thanks for the comments doctor obvious...

 

At least these AR guys can catch a shift.

 

LR is sailing like dog shit. They have managed to find the longest way around the course every race thus far. That's not a winning formula no matter how fast you are...

 

How about LRs starts? Leeward gate management?

 

Piss poor for this level of racing. No excuses for that

But you gotta admit, it looks like pretty handy dog shit, when it comes to sailing against AR. Not too bad for 2nd division teams. :)

 

What ever type of shit it is LR is doing a poor job of getting their boat around the course.

 

It's only a matter of days that would put AR ahead of LR. Maybe 10?

 

LR has nothing to be proud of.

 

If I was in LR management I would question why their OTW team can't dispose of a 'broken' team like AR.

 

This is as exciting as it will get until the match.

 

I expect AR to improve vs LR. I'm taking 10:1 that AR win a race.

 

No doubt AR will be working hard until Friday. I don't think LR will do much except lay like the dog they are.

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It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?WTF kind of sailboat racing do you do? Thanks for the comments doctor obvious...

 

At least these AR guys can catch a shift.

 

LR is sailing like dog shit. They have managed to find the longest way around the course every race thus far. That's not a winning formula no matter how fast you are...

 

How about LRs starts? Leeward gate management?

 

Piss poor for this level of racing. No excuses for that

But you gotta admit, it looks like pretty handy dog shit, when it comes to sailing against AR. Not too bad for 2nd division teams. :)

 

What ever type of shit it is LR is doing a poor job of getting their boat around the course.

 

It's only a matter of days that would put AR ahead of LR. Maybe 10?

 

LR has nothing to be proud of.

 

If I was in LR management I would question why their OTW team can't dispose of a 'broken' team like AR.

 

This is as exciting as it will get until the match.

 

I expect AR to improve vs LR. I'm taking 10:1 that AR win a race.

 

No doubt AR will be working hard until Friday. I don't think LR will do much except lay like the dog they are.

It's all relative. Relative to AR, LR is looking like a winner.

 

There's no way NO and team can overcome that fuck-up of a boat, no matter how good they are. And there's no denying they're good.

 

Pretty sure you'll lose your money.

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I think what a lot of people who don't understand the cheering for AR are missing is that people are cheering for the sailors not the very clearly lacking management and designers.

Precisely, you could cheer for the billionaire owner - or not. You could cheer for the CEO - or not. You could cheer for the designers - or not. Or instead cheer for the sailors on board - hooray!

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It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?
WTF kind of sailboat racing do you do? Thanks for the comments doctor obvious...

 

At least these AR guys can catch a shift.

 

LR is sailing like dog shit. They have managed to find the longest way around the course every race thus far. That's not a winning formula no matter how fast you are...

 

How about LRs starts? Leeward gate management?

 

Piss poor for this level of racing. No excuses for that

But you gotta admit, it looks like pretty handy dog shit, when it comes to sailing against AR. Not too bad for 2nd division teams. :)

 

What ever type of shit it is LR is doing a poor job of getting their boat around the course.

 

It's only a matter of days that would put AR ahead of LR. Maybe 10?

 

LR has nothing to be proud of.

 

If I was in LR management I would question why their OTW team can't dispose of a 'broken' team like AR.

 

This is as exciting as it will get until the match.

 

I expect AR to improve vs LR. I'm taking 10:1 that AR win a race.

 

No doubt AR will be working hard until Friday. I don't think LR will do much except lay like the dog they are.

It's all relative. Relative to AR, LR is looking like a winner.

 

There's no way NO and team can overcome that fuck-up of a boat, no matter how good they are. And there's no denying they're good.

 

Pretty sure you'll lose your money.

 

I agree...LRs platform and time in the boat SHOULD mean they will walk away with the LVC Semis. But they arent putting the nail in the coffin.

 

In both starts AR could have parked LR.... but it didnt happen. Respect?

 

All Im saying is that AR is sailing the course better than LR. If LR could actually hit some shifts/pressure the delta would be considerably higher.

But so far LR has only relied on their speed and comfort with their time on their platform. IF AR can continue to sail well and close the gap on boat handling then we will have an interesting situation.

 

The slope of ARs improvement is of interest. Too bad there isnt enough time.

 

Can you imagine what big blue could have accomplished with more time on the H2O?

 

IMHO AR is faster than LR upwind.

 

Blue doesnt look like a fuck up to me...Maybe the AR program is Fd up...But given the time and development opportunity Blue beats LR/ETNZ Gen1 all day.

 

Do you think the LR guys would be able to put down the same performance after 9 or 10 days on the H2O?

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I think what a lot of people who don't understand the cheering for AR are missing is that people are cheering for the sailors not the very clearly lacking management and designers.

Absolutely. If those sailors were on another team, under another leader, sailing another boat, there wouldn't be a problem. But when you're on a failing team (Keyword being Team) You represent that team, and everything they have done (Or havent done) you represent what that team stands for, and the failings that team has incurred. Its part and parcel of being a part of that team. You take the good, and you take the bad. Just as Team New Zealand did in 2003. Yes Russell and friends left the team, but ultimately the team was underprepared, inexperienced with no clear leader, sailing a boat that was structurally lacking and did not perform. (deja vu anyone??) and the team (Mainly Dean Barker) shouldered the blame for a miserable, failure of a defense campaign. Those words were echoed around the world and were strongest in New Zealand. There was no...well at least they're trying hard, and its good to see them on the water and lets cheer them on back then. They lost and they lost bad. But there was no postponing any races, there was no not turning up on race day. They turned up and got their asses handed to them every race day. Thats what Artemis needs to realise, in The America's Cup you can sugarcoat it all you want, but its not about how hard you try, its about winning and losing...like the Oracle video says: There is no second place.

 

Agree.

 

I am a little tired of hearing about the sailors on AR (particularly NO) being top class.

 

No they are not. They may have won other classes or gold medals but this is about sailing an AC72. And in this class they have achieved nothing part from finishing two races (2nd)

 

There are questions about LR, but they have finished more races and won 2 of them.

 

OR - BA we have not really see him do anything and he is really second fiddle to JS. OR - JS trashed boat 1 in a situation where a more level headed or mature helmsman would not have.

 

DB - yes it is easy to look good when you are in a good team but this is a new class and DB has all the ticks the others have and more. And he is a key part of that team.

 

On top of this I think we need to be able to look at the helmsman and wing trimmer relationship. Clearly TNZ score higher in this regard as well.

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I think what a lot of people who don't understand the cheering for AR are missing is that people are cheering for the sailors not the very clearly lacking management and designers.

Absolutely. If those sailors were on another team, under another leader, sailing another boat, there wouldn't be a problem. But when you're on a failing team (Keyword being Team) You represent that team, and everything they have done (Or havent done) you represent what that team stands for, and the failings that team has incurred. Its part and parcel of being a part of that team. You take the good, and you take the bad. Just as Team New Zealand did in 2003. Yes Russell and friends left the team, but ultimately the team was underprepared, inexperienced with no clear leader, sailing a boat that was structurally lacking and did not perform. (deja vu anyone??) and the team (Mainly Dean Barker) shouldered the blame for a miserable, failure of a defense campaign. Those words were echoed around the world and were strongest in New Zealand. There was no...well at least they're trying hard, and its good to see them on the water and lets cheer them on back then. They lost and they lost bad. But there was no postponing any races, there was no not turning up on race day. They turned up and got their asses handed to them every race day. Thats what Artemis needs to realise, in The America's Cup you can sugarcoat it all you want, but its not about how hard you try, its about winning and losing...like the Oracle video says: There is no second place.

 

Agree.

 

I am a little tired of hearing about the sailors on AR (particularly NO) being top class.

 

No they are not. They may have won other classes or gold medals but this is about sailing an AC72. And in this class they have achieved nothing part from finishing two races (2nd)

 

There are questions about LR, but they have finished more races and won 2 of them.

 

OR - BA we have not really see him do anything and he is really second fiddle to JS. OR - JS trashed boat 1 in a situation where a more level headed or mature helmsman would not have.

 

DB - yes it is easy to look good when you are in a good team but this is a new class and DB has all the ticks the others have and more. And he is a key part of that team.

 

On top of this I think we need to be able to look at the helmsman and wing trimmer relationship. Clearly TNZ score higher in this regard as well.

Talk about being double sided...

 

There is no precedent for anyone on these boats. You cant compare DB/GA vs. JS/Anyone as a helm/wing tandem. Have you seen them race against each other on AC72s?

 

There is no doubt that NO, JS, or anyone else on any team is nothing but top class. Who else is there?

 

If DB was sailing for AR and JS was sailing with LR would you have the same opinion?

 

This is the AC...Its a design match. Period.

 

I could beat up on these guys if I had the right rocketship.

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It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?
WTF kind of sailboat racing do you do? Thanks for the comments doctor obvious...

 

At least these AR guys can catch a shift.

 

LR is sailing like dog shit. They have managed to find the longest way around the course every race thus far. That's not a winning formula no matter how fast you are...

 

How about LRs starts? Leeward gate management?

 

Piss poor for this level of racing. No excuses for that

But you gotta admit, it looks like pretty handy dog shit, when it comes to sailing against AR. Not too bad for 2nd division teams. :)

 

What ever type of shit it is LR is doing a poor job of getting their boat around the course.

 

It's only a matter of days that would put AR ahead of LR. Maybe 10?

 

LR has nothing to be proud of.

 

If I was in LR management I would question why their OTW team can't dispose of a 'broken' team like AR.

 

This is as exciting as it will get until the match.

 

I expect AR to improve vs LR. I'm taking 10:1 that AR win a race.

 

No doubt AR will be working hard until Friday. I don't think LR will do much except lay like the dog they are.

It's all relative. Relative to AR, LR is looking like a winner.

 

There's no way NO and team can overcome that fuck-up of a boat, no matter how good they are. And there's no denying they're good.

 

Pretty sure you'll lose your money.

 

I agree...LRs platform and time in the boat SHOULD mean they will walk away with the LVC Semis. But they arent putting the nail in the coffin.

 

In both starts AR could have parked LR.... but it didnt happen. Respect?

 

All Im saying is that AR is sailing the course better than LR. If LR could actually hit some shifts/pressure the delta would be considerably higher.

But so far LR has only relied on their speed and comfort with their time on their platform. IF AR can continue to sail well and close the gap on boat handling then we will have an interesting situation.

 

The slope of ARs improvement is of interest. Too bad there isnt enough time.

 

Can you imagine what big blue could have accomplished with more time on the H2O?

 

IMHO AR is faster than LR upwind.

 

Blue doesnt look like a fuck up to me...Maybe the AR program is Fd up...But given the time and development opportunity Blue beats LR/ETNZ Gen1 all day.

 

Do you think the LR guys would be able to put down the same performance after 9 or 10 days on the H2O?

Here's how I see it.

 

Big Blue is supposedly a SECOND generation AC72. Yet technically, she's a first-time foiler. (Big Red wasn't even designed for racing in the correct country, let alone exploiting the AC72 Rule - if PC is to be believed). Prada is a FIRST generation AC72, yet is still bucket loads faster than Big Blue.

 

Had Big Blue been AR's FIRST boat, then maybe their 2nd generation would have been competitive. I guess we'll never know, since they're unlikely to build a 3rd generation AC72.

Edited by Sailbydate

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It's becoming very clear the the team that best manages time on the water with boat development will take home the chocolates. It seems that those that are consistently slick turning corners can make as much ground or more than a 5% boatspeed advantage does. Wouldn't it be extraordinary if the AC was decided on who does the lowest number of non-foiling gybes over the series?WTF kind of sailboat racing do you do? Thanks for the comments doctor obvious...

 

At least these AR guys can catch a shift.

 

LR is sailing like dog shit. They have managed to find the longest way around the course every race thus far. That's not a winning formula no matter how fast you are...

 

How about LRs starts? Leeward gate management?

 

Piss poor for this level of racing. No excuses for that

But you gotta admit, it looks like pretty handy dog shit, when it comes to sailing against AR. Not too bad for 2nd division teams. :)

 

What ever type of shit it is LR is doing a poor job of getting their boat around the course.

 

It's only a matter of days that would put AR ahead of LR. Maybe 10?

 

LR has nothing to be proud of.

 

If I was in LR management I would question why their OTW team can't dispose of a 'broken' team like AR.

 

This is as exciting as it will get until the match.

 

I expect AR to improve vs LR. I'm taking 10:1 that AR win a race.

 

No doubt AR will be working hard until Friday. I don't think LR will do much except lay like the dog they are.

There was a famous phrase coined by Russell Coutts himself when his starting wasn't that good in San Diego in 95. It goes like this: My starting wasn't particularly good, but if i had to choose between winning the start and winning the finish, i'd take winning the finish" Never a more true word spoken. Winners are grinners! And I'm sure if the race committee let them race the other two races today, they would've disposed of Artemis today. But only one race per day means you only race once a day. Im sure a lot of Italians and Kiwi's are very proud of Luna Rossa.

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^^ AR, unlike OR, did launch a B1 that did not contemplate the possibility that foiling might win out. It was not designed to be able to go either way. After the (already foiling) OR1 pitchpoled and spent 3 months being rebuilt, only then did AR get taught that lesson. So yes, they missed the commitment to foiling bet, just as PC explained in his 'the numbers didn't line up right' interview back when.

 

But I still vehemently object to anyone at AR getting blamed for what happened on May 9, setting them back far worse. We saw even an ETNZ boat blow out a simple jib halyard clasp last week. Can you imagine if that part had been in the undercarriage? It didn't, but could have happened to any boat with catastrophic consequences through a bearaway.

 

I am not predicting more injury or God forbid fatalities but I'm absolutely certain we will see significant equipment failures in the weeks ahead, by other teams.

 

It's not valid to compare the failure of "a simple jib halyard clasp" to the apparent structural failure that caused Artemis to disintegrate. If a jib halyard breaks, the jib falls down. If a structural member fails, the boat breaks up. In a safe design, the parts are fail-safed accordingly. Why do you think ETNZ has full bows, for example?

 

It is true that there is an element of luck in all this. OR got lucky when they PPed in the same sense that AR was unlucky to lose a crew member, despite all the safety gear the crew carry. But while it might be true to say "it could happen to anyone", it is more accurate to say "it could happen to anyone (but some more than others)". AR made design decisions that ultimately led to their boat being more at risk of structural failure than others'.

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Almost everyone is saying the NO had a great start and CD had a shocker....

 

To play Devil's advocate, NO had a great start, but how close was he? It looked like 1mm! which is great, but that really isn't giving yourself anything for an error by yourself or others..... CD must have known that they had an advantage in the gybes and had to back themselves on that and planned for a clean start. How much do you trust the start line equipment to not call you over even if you aren't?

 

Not saying that NO didn't do an amazing job, only that he gave himself, the rest of the crew or the electronic equipment no margin for error.....

 

What would people's reaction have been had he been over by 1mm? How about 'what an idiot, he screwed their whole race'.

I couldn't agree more.

 

I know that I keep banging on about it, but there really is a thing about team safety culture. AR just don't have it. That was a relatively high risk maneuver for an experienced team, and probably suicidally high for an inexperienced team. What did they gain - 3s on the start line and 6s at the first mark?

 

CD backed off, and gets hammered for it by the media. I even read on the TVNZ website some commentator suggesting that CDs job could be on the line if he didn't do a better job starting - what a complete joke. Listening to him interviewed post race he actually says that their game plan was to stay out of NO's way in the prestart because they knew they had plenty of speed on them. CD made a smart decision and was rewarded with a safe start, and a 2 minute win.

GD mentioned a lot of carbon fibre around...risk assessment is a survival trait

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You can call me a boy all you like but it only looks even more as if all those long hours graft from the shore crew and team to put this boat together were an exercise in futility - aside from making LR look pretty smart!

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Do you think the LR guys would be able to put down the same performance after 9 or 10 days on the H2O?

 

Yes. They did fly very well after few days (not more than 13) on the water and they were able to reach a speed of 37kts.

See here: http://luna-rossa-challenge-2013.americascup.com/en/latest/2384/auckland-december-2012-racing-vs-emirates-team-new-zealand-2

Having said that, they are far from the perfect performance of ETNZ.

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In both starts AR could have parked LR.... but it didnt happen. Respect?

 

So if CD fails to "park" NO when he has a chance then he is crap. When the reverse happens does it make AR good?

 

Max commented after the first race that he is happy for CD to be very cautious at start. It's understandable if you consider what they have to gain and what they have to lose. They only have one boat. Also NO seems not confident enough to push a dial-up.

It seems to me that they both have good reasons for doing so.

 

All Im saying is that AR is sailing the course better than LR. If LR could actually hit some shifts/pressure the delta would be considerably higher.

But so far LR has only relied on their speed and comfort with their time on their platform. IF AR can continue to sail well and close the gap on boat handling then we will have an interesting situation.

 

The slope of ARs improvement is of interest. Too bad there isnt enough time.

 

Honestly, the boat so far looked so bad that even if the crew made any mistakes we would have missed them.

 

But I agree they have been better in looking for puffs. Or so it seems. On the other hand, the distance between the boats was often so huge that LR was in a different wind. You can see very well in virtual eye, the case of the wind shift to left during the second upwind. It just happened in time for AR to benefit for it. LR was simply elsewhere.

 

Can you imagine what big blue could have accomplished with more time on the H2O?

 

Nothing. The boat is wrong (within the class rule)

 

IMHO AR is faster than LR upwind.

 

Yes/maybe. It was designed for that. And it was a mistake.

 

Blue doesnt look like a fuck up to me...Maybe the AR program is Fd up...But given the time and development opportunity Blue beats LR/ETNZ Gen1 all day.

 

Do you think the LR guys would be able to put down the same performance after 9 or 10 days on the H2O?

Yes, they did.

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I think what a lot of people who don't understand the cheering for AR are missing is that people are cheering for the sailors not the very clearly lacking management and designers.

 

Don't forget the shore team, the families, and probably 95% of everyone else on the team.

 

Hell, I'm even rooting for the guys that did make mistakes. I sure as shit know I have made mistakes in my life, as we all have. And some of them, had things gone the wrong way, may have led to people dying (I would guess the same could be said for 99.9% of you, if just talking about driving in our cars). I am quite sure that those people are going to be haunted by those decisions for the rest of their lives, anyway.

 

Might as well root on the AR team for them to be as good as they can be, and hope for something good to come out of the Artemis AC34 campaign. Doing so does NOT in any way minimize what LR, OR, or ETNZ have done, or mean you are rooting against them.

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All Im saying is that AR is sailing the course better than LR. If LR could actually hit some shifts/pressure the delta would be considerably higher.

But so far LR has only relied on their speed and comfort with their time on their platform. IF AR can continue to sail well and close the gap on boat handling then we will have an interesting situation.

 

The slope of ARs improvement is of interest. Too bad there isnt enough time.

 

Honestly, the boat so far looked so bad that even if the crew made any mistakes we would have missed them.

 

But I agree they have been better in looking for puffs. Or so it seems. On the other hand, the distance between the boats was often so huge that LR was in a different wind. You can see very well in virtual eye, the case of the wind shift to left during the second upwind. It just happened in time for AR to benefit for it. LR was simply elsewhere.

 

>>Can you imagine what big blue could have accomplished with more time on the H2O?

 

Nothing. The boat is wrong (within the class rule)

 

IMHO AR is faster than LR upwind.

 

Yes/maybe. It was designed for that. And it was a mistake.

 

Blue doesnt look like a fuck up to me...Maybe the AR program is Fd up...But given the time and development opportunity Blue beats LR/ETNZ Gen1 all day.

 

Do you think the LR guys would be able to put down the same performance after 9 or 10 days on the H2O?

Yes, they did.

 

 

 

 

This are some of the most narrow minded replys I have ever seen. You must be totally blind, stupid or maybe you are only taking the piss.

 

*What looks so bad with the boat???????????? It might not be perfect but how good is LR looking after 10 times more of sailing. AR has hardly started tuning ther boat and already they look not to bad. Look at LR with its nose down attitude it has many times? Does it look very good for an optimized boat does it????????????? Not to talk about the wing trimming. How many days does AR have with there wing (wing 2 and 3) compared to LR?

 

*The boat might be to heavy but it is for a reason. It was reinforced. We know that it was reinforced but we dont know if it was required. It might just have been done to make the crew feel more relaxed with the boat. It might never have been required. We dont know that and we will never know.

 

*What is wrong with being fast upwind. Being fast upwing might indicate good shape of the hull. What is wrong with that? If you are foiling the hulls do not touch the water anyway so it should not make you slower going downwind.

 

*LR was not able to perform what AR is after 10 days. I dont say that they could not but they never did. They were still sailng i stright lines to learn how to get the boat to go faster and did not even know how to jibe. A flybe were not even invented at that time.

 

I dont see why AR not could be very good with time.They are still on there first set of foils and rudders. How many different foils and rudders has LR tried and what about future R&D. LR hardly has anything and no arganisation for it. How could they develop? I dont say that AR could win AC but they could be very good. The problem is that they went down the wrong road from day 1. They had to pay a very high price for that and they still have to pay for it and will do as long as this AC is running.

 

Give the guys a break. They deserve it.

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Do you think the LR guys would be able to put down the same performance after 9 or 10 days on the H2O?

 

Yes. They did fly very well after few days (not more than 13) on the water and they were able to reach a speed of 37kts.

See here: http://luna-rossa-challenge-2013.americascup.com/en/latest/2384/auckland-december-2012-racing-vs-emirates-team-new-zealand-2

Having said that, they are far from the perfect performance of ETNZ.

 

LR sailed a practice race against ETNZ after sailing for only five days (and without the benefit of 40+ days sailing a non-foiling AC72). Interestingly, ETNZ had been sailing for 20 days at the time, so other teams were also throwing the boats around a race course, albeit a practice one, fairly early in their sailing programs.

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I think what a lot of people who don't understand the cheering for AR are missing is that people are cheering for the sailors not the very clearly lacking management and designers.

This

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Do you think the LR guys would be able to put down the same performance after 9 or 10 days on the H2O?

 

Yes. They did fly very well after few days (not more than 13) on the water and they were able to reach a speed of 37kts.

See here: http://luna-rossa-challenge-2013.americascup.com/en/latest/2384/auckland-december-2012-racing-vs-emirates-team-new-zealand-2

Having said that, they are far from the perfect performance of ETNZ.

 

LR sailed a practice race against ETNZ after sailing for only five days (and without the benefit of 40+ days sailing a non-foiling AC72). Interestingly, ETNZ had been sailing for 20 days at the time, so other teams were also throwing the boats around a race course, albeit a practice one, fairly early in their sailing programs.

 

 

I dont think that a friendly "practice race" is the same as race in LVC. I am sure that it was more like "lets meet up and sail next to eash other in the same direction at the same time around this marks to get a feel for it" type of race. Nothing wrong with that but it is just not the same.

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