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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
sarah0809

Artemis?

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Nice job, ART. Hope to see you in Auckland next time.

PS: Be good if you could give us a bit of starting practice, between now and the Match.

Oh well. OK. I guess you can't leave the cartel without your concrete boots. Fair enough.

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Well done to AR - much respect, really hope this squad continues for the next AC - pleasure to watch these gentlemen

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6 hours ago, PabloAU said:

Well done to AR - much respect, really hope this squad continues for the next AC - pleasure to watch these gentlemen

Well said!

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The boat had so much potential. Too many penalties and Nathan overboard did not help. Why do I get the impression NZ won this play off with the slower boat? And this was on purpose so they could make the latest changes at a point when Oracle couldn't see them?

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4 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Why do I get the impression NZ won this play off with the slower boat? 

I have no idea how you got that impression. ETNZ had the quicker boat in almost all the conditions. the reason why Artemis got the penalties was because they knew that if they didn't push everything to the limit, they wouldn't win any races. The 2 races they won were as perfect as you could get but when you are onj the limit at all times, mistakes happen.

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2 hours ago, terrafirma said:

The boat had so much potential. Too many penalties and Nathan overboard did not help. Why do I get the impression NZ won this play off with the slower boat? And this was on purpose so they could make the latest changes at a point when Oracle couldn't see them?

Slower boat? You're kidding right? 

They monstered Artemis on practically every upwind leg, overtook them in 4 races and generally looked similar speed downwind.

There is no doubt that they have more speed implants in the shed but slower boat than Artemis?  No chance.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Congrats Artemis, you deserved to win, it will be for another time. Bravo !

I think saying they deserve to win is a bit strong.

However they are clearly a much better team than last time and an all around class act who have done themselves proud.

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I actually got the feeling that Artemis were sailing better than ETNZ they just had the slower platform.  All series, the races Artemis won were head out of the boat races.  I think the lack of talk on ETNZ may prove problematic if Oracle are close in speed.  Which is interesting as in theory the pedals should be freeing up a tactition.

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Classy and Competitive. So refreshing to see a real team truly united and fighting for honourable outcomes. 

Artemis show that you do not need to be a corporate robot or uncommunicative compared with the other teams. TT shows the other billionaires a few tips as to how to conduct yourself. IP is passionate about his sailing and the outbursts he has are nothing other than a manifestation of that passion.

I dread the march towards corporatised and sanitised behaviour that eradicates such displays. This is sport first, and business should be a distant second.

The Kiwis are not a nation known for hyperbole, and given their history in SF you can forgive them for revealing nothing. Oracle and Spitbull have all the sympathetic qualities of an american character in a sylvester stallone movie, but it doesn't travel well.........  

So Artemis, we salute you, miss you and pray that you come back for another crack.

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One the eve of the final races of AC35, I want to congratulate ETNZ for their skill and tenacity in overcoming the odds placed before them in the early development of this cycle.

I have enjoyed watching Artemis become and actual power (I don't care what anyone says, they are at least #2 behind ETNZ when it comes to the AC50) in the America's Cup world and hope to live long enough to see them challenge AC36.

It would still be a shame not to continue with some form of the ACWS in the AC50 so the development of the class and the sailing technique can continue, as this has been one hell of a Cup.

I am now going to search for a miracle cure to a mangled and crushed cervical spine.

Chainlocker; out but not down.

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I have no information to dispute that, but just the fact that they would return to monos would not seem reason for TT to "get out" as he has been campaigning monos for years. He would finally get a chance to sail what his money buys and would boost his RC44 teams.

But then again, who knows? I really do not feel ETNZ will stray too far from the current technologies where they have a proven advantage at this point.

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On 03/06/2017 at 1:51 PM, Boink said:

.....

Look at ETNZ in this cup, on the boat the sailing talent is Burling Ashby and Tuke - bolstered by 3 super fit cyclists.

Most serious nations could rustle up 3 quality sailors . . . . .

Andy and Josh wer boath (krewshilly) eksellent sailerz on TNZ, no?

 

EDIT ritten with hyndsyt, now we no (eg) that Andy woz subbing in for Tuke becoz sumwun needed to fly the bote the hole tym

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20 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

Warning! Includes an enormous tanty!

 

That heavy wind series between AR and SBTJ was stunningly good racing and excellent viewing entertainment. 

Those two boats set the highest speeds of all of AC35, the top 10 iirc by avg leg speeds were set during that matchup. Intense, balls to the wall racing, it's amazing that both boats finished all 7.

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8 hours ago, mikerocks said:

Best move of the whole AC!

Still think the penalty was bullshit though. Japan were outside the circle. How much room did they have to give before it was judged enough ?

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

Still think the penalty was bullshit though. Japan were outside the circle. How much room did they have to give before it was judged enough ?

Rules are rules. Artemis was entitled to enough room to do a proper tack, which in those conditions was a foiling tack which they didn't have room to do and they had o steer to avoid SBTJ. It is pretty clear to me that SBTJ was in the circle, or at least the circle that was "drawn" on the coverage, which to me looked a little small anyway. In those circumstances, SBTJ could see that Artemis was going to tack inside them from some way out so should have known to stay out of the circle. It was a mistake by SBTJ. Watch carefully and you can see that Artemis begins the turn as soon as they can. It becomes clearer if you also watch the wake. They did the turn as soon as they could, stayed within the circle while SBTJ entered the circle. Game over. If SBTJ had headed up just a little sooner and played safe, they would have been round and away.

Maybe what threw them was the move by Outteridge, thinking he couldn't possibly try what he did.. That needed the biggest pair of balls, split second timing and total faith. If he had got it wrong it would have been the end of both boats. I guess that is why he got paid the big bucks and why you have to be a total god to steer one of those beasts.

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The umpires clarified after this that the give way boat had to allow three boat lengths room to remain clear - SBTJ cut the corner and were in the circle so deserved the pen.  Ironically, I also think the revised interpretation probably means the penalty against Artemis in their first (or second?) race against ETNZ would now be considered the correct call as they also clipped the circle IIRC.

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1 hour ago, ezyb said:

The umpires clarified after this that the give way boat had to allow three boat lengths room to remain clear - SBTJ cut the corner and were in the circle so deserved the pen.  Ironically, I also think the revised interpretation probably means the penalty against Artemis in their first (or second?) race against ETNZ would now be considered the correct call as they also clipped the circle IIRC.

According to analyses of that incident, they were not on collision course though.

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1 hour ago, monochrome said:

According to analyses of that incident, they were not on collision course though.

I suspect that Burling pulled a great move by reacting in a way that made the umpires believe there would have been a collision when later analysis showed there would not have been. Very smart and tricked the umpire who then admitted he had got it wrong. I see that as a Burling win, not an umpire screw up.

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"Torquist's vision .... to create a sailing circus..":blink:..so this was the motivation for the London Framework Agreement? But they already had ACWS circus...

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On 20/07/2017 at 3:42 PM, A Class Sailor said:

I suspect that Burling pulled a great move by reacting in a way that made the umpires believe there would have been a collision when later analysis showed there would not have been. Very smart and tricked the umpire who then admitted he had got it wrong. I see that as a Burling win, not an umpire screw up.

Part of umpiring is determining when the sailors are Hollywooding, and trying it on. Being taken in is definitely a screw up. 

Must be bloody difficult to determine at 40 knots, though. 

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12 hours ago, sclarke said:

The sad legacy of the Oracle vision.

 

Can't pin that on orifice. The world is littered with unwanted A.C. boats. Just the nature of the game.

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21 hours ago, sclarke said:

The sad legacy of the Oracle vision.

 

What will happen with all of this equipment since now rendered obsolete? Expensive landfill.

 

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11 hours ago, jaysper said:

Can't pin that on orifice. The world is littered with unwanted A.C. boats. Just the nature of the game.

This is the difference between mono's and multi's. Many former AC boats have had another life after the AC. Mono's can be bought and sailed in many other races around the world. Wingsailed, hydraulically powered, foiling catamarans can not.

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18 minutes ago, sclarke said:

This is the difference between mono's and multi's. Many former AC boats have had another life after the AC. Mono's can be bought and sailed in many other races around the world. Wingsailed, hydraulically powered, foiling catamarans can not.

and some funky foiling monohull will?

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24 minutes ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

and some funky foiling monohull will?

With some pretty straightforward modifications, I should thing so, yes.

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Had AR not taco'ed the one above - it could probably have been converted into something useful (but compromised - like the ex-AC monos mentioned) as well.

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5 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

With some pretty straightforward modifications, I should thing so, yes.

I would have thought so too. Replace the wing and dagger boards with non foilers and hey presto. 

I keep telling people that Orifice did enough shitty stuff that we CAN blame them for without making shit up.

Sadly A.C. boats are often mistreated. Even the mighty nzl60 got dumped like a hot turd after 2000.

I think maybe etnz got her back eventually but it was still hardly a fitting treatment.

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

I would have thought so too. Replace the wing and dagger boards with non foilers and hey presto. 

I keep telling people that Orifice did enough shitty stuff that we CAN blame them for without making shit up.

Sadly A.C. boats are often mistreated. Even the mighty nzl60 got dumped like a hot turd after 2000.

I think maybe etnz got her back eventually but it was still hardly a fitting treatment.

NZL60 was bought by the K-Challenge and was used in the acts before the 2007 cup, and then bought by Mike Sanderson and Team Origin, and used as a test boat after 2007 before that campaign folded. It was also raced in the Louis Vuitton Trophy in 2010, under the Team Origin colours along with the 2 ETNZ boats, the two Oracle boats, the two Mascalzone Latino boats and the K Challenge boat from 2007. Not sure where she is now, but she a somewhat decent race life after the 2000 defence.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

NZL60 was bought by the K-Challenge and was used in the acts before the 2007 cup, and then bought by Mike Sanderson and Team Origin, and used as a test boat after 2007 before that campaign folded. It was also raced in the Louis Vuitton Trophy in 2010, under the Team Origin colours along with the 2 ETNZ boats, the two Oracle boats, the two Mascalzone Latino boats and the K Challenge boat from 2007. Not sure where she is now, but she a somewhat decent race life after the 2000 defence.

Sure, but it's an A.C. winner that demolished the challenger 5 - zip.

Hardly a fitting end.

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Looking positive for ART

Artemis waiting on final protocol before America's Cup decision - Nathan Outteridge

He (Outteridge) said Törnqvist was "very passionate" about the direction the America's Cup was heading in.

"He thinks that for himself and his involvement in sailing, he would like the high performance foiling yachts, so I think that will play a big part in what he wants to do," Outteridge said.

"But until we see the full details, it's hard to make a commitment one way or another."

 

Outteridge said Artemis decides not to compete, he'd want to join the Australian boat.

"I think that would great if Tom could make that happen," said Outteridge.

"It's about finding the right people and getting them involved, and I think Tom has been working hard on that, so I'm confident he will be able to get it together.

"Tom and I have been mates for a long time and funnily enough we have never sailed together, so if Artemis decided not to go ahead, then I'd love to compete with Australia."

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/10/artemis-waiting-on-final-protocol-before-america-s-cup-decision-nathan-outteridge.html

 

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Final Protocol? WT....?

The outline of the event, the costs and the time-line are already there and clear enough but of course there remains the possibility of changes along the way

As to the boat which it all seems to hang on from the Artemis perspective, they will get a look see next month if they turn up, their input if any will be considered but they won't know the Class Rule definitively until March 2018 obviously.

It sounds like TT is coming around, but NO is still betting a dollar each way :D

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18 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Would like AR turning up, but how can they possibly work around the nationality requirements?

Easy .. Just hook up with an Australian YC and represent Australia.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Plenty of that suggests Artemis will be entering if it's 'a high performance foiler' which, given the latitude of what that can mean, it surely will be.

NO says outright that he and IP have been discussing what a campaign would look like, for in case TT does give them a Go.

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8 hours ago, nav said:

Final Protocol? WT....?

The outline of the event, the costs and the time-line are already there and clear enough but of course there remains the possibility of changes along the way

As to the boat which it all seems to hang on from the Artemis perspective, they will get a look see next month if they turn up, their input if any will be considered but they won't know the Class Rule definitively until March 2018 obviously.

It sounds like TT is coming around, but NO is still betting a dollar each way :D

I hope the "final Protocol" reference was lost in translation, and he meant the AC75 Class Rule. But if the real deal-breaker for Artemis is the Nationality qualification, there's nothing preventing the Swedish Embassy in Auckland or any other warm-water city in Southern Europe or Australia from hosting 8 or 9 Artemis foreigner sailors for 6 months each year to satisfy the 380-days residency requirement.

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

But if the real deal-breaker for Artemis is the Nationality qualification, there's nothing preventing the Swedish Embassy in Auckland or any other warm-water city in Southern Europe or Australia from hosting 8 or 9 Artemis foreigner sailors for 6 months each year to satisfy the 380-days residency requirement.

Uh? You mean à la Julian Assange? Doubt it would work

 

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9 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Easy .. Just hook up with an Australian YC and represent Australia.

A rather simple and effective soln

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45 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Uh? You mean à la Julian Assange? Doubt it would work

 

Hahaha, Assange's circumstances are more political asylum. But if the world recognise and accept that a country's embassy is that country's territory, then theoretically the Swedish Embassy in Auckland could accommodate Artemis' foreign sailors as guests or "employees" so they can practise in the Hauraki Gulf while qualifying under the residency requirement. There's nothing in the Protocol that says non-nationals have to reside in Sweden (as an example). The Arbitration might have to adjudicate but I think they'll agree with me.

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No they wouldn't - immunity != sovereignty.  Unless something has changed recently, international law states that an embassy is the territory of the "home" state

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1 hour ago, ezyb said:

No they wouldn't - immunity != sovereignty.  Unless something has changed recently, international law states that an embassy is the territory of the "home" state

I stand corrected - you are correct re. property. The Artemis foreign mercenaries will just have to freeze their nads in Stockholm for 6 months a year for 2 years - IF they challenge.

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3 minutes ago, Indio said:

The Artemis foreign mercenaries will just have to freeze their nads in Stockholm for 6 months a year for 2 years - IF they challenge.

So the Artemis foreign mercenaries cannot sail for 6 months a year for 2 years while the ETNZ mercenaries can live where the event is going to be sailed all year around and LR's mercenaries can also sail all the year around, because that is totally fair to "punish" teams because in their country you cannot sail in winter.

The more likely scenario would be that they don't freeze their nads off, because during winter they base themselves in NZ and spend the summer in Sweden, when they can sail, because again it is fair to force a team from colder climates to have 2 bases when teams from warmer ones can get by with just one.

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10 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

So the Artemis foreign mercenaries cannot sail for 6 months a year for 2 years while the ETNZ mercenaries can live where the event is going to be sailed all year around and LR's mercenaries can also sail all the year around, because that is totally fair to "punish" teams because in their country you cannot sail in winter.

The more likely scenario would be that they don't freeze their nads off, because during winter they base themselves in NZ and spend the summer in Sweden, when they can sail, because again it is fair to force a team from colder climates to have 2 bases when teams from warmer ones can get by with just one.

I think you are rather over estimating how many sailing days these boats do...

ETNZ's AC50 did 21 days sailing before shipping to Bermuda.

With the AC72's only ETNZ managed to hit the 30 day limit in the first 6 month sailing period.

You cannot even launch the first boat until 6 months into the first year... so you only have to pick up 6 more months over the next 18 months. 

Artemis could literally put off sailing until the early in the Swedish summer sail one summer in Sweden and then move to Auckland and have satisfied the requirements.  They could also simply base themselves in the med (or similar southern Europe location) for their initial phase of testing and have the crew take a 2 or 3 hour flight home for the weekend and still satisfy the remaining 6 out of 18 months.

EVERY team not based in New Zealand is going to need two bases anyway...

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4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

So the Artemis foreign mercenaries cannot sail for 6 months a year for 2 years while the ETNZ mercenaries can live where the event is going to be sailed all year around and LR's mercenaries can also sail all the year around, because that is totally fair to "punish" teams because in their country you cannot sail in winter.

The more likely scenario would be that they don't freeze their nads off, because during winter they base themselves in NZ and spend the summer in Sweden, when they can sail, because again it is fair to force a team from colder climates to have 2 bases when teams from warmer ones can get by with just one.

Team_GBR.jpg.9611eb51c573187e3acfecff398aa0ca.jpgWhine off to someone who gives a fuck!!

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7 hours ago, Boybland said:

I think you are rather over estimating how many sailing days these boats do...

ETNZ's AC50 did 21 days sailing before shipping to Bermuda.

With the AC72's only ETNZ managed to hit the 30 day limit in the first 6 month sailing period.

You cannot even launch the first boat until 6 months into the first year... so you only have to pick up 6 more months over the next 18 months. 

Artemis could literally put off sailing until the early in the Swedish summer sail one summer in Sweden and then move to Auckland and have satisfied the requirements.  They could also simply base themselves in the med (or similar southern Europe location) for their initial phase of testing and have the crew take a 2 or 3 hour flight home for the weekend and still satisfy the remaining 6 out of 18 months.

EVERY team not based in New Zealand is going to need two bases anyway...

Not necessarily .. If a team has 100% nationals they can have just one base in New Zealand .. Australia might be a possibility.

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17 hours ago, Boybland said:

I think you are rather over estimating how many sailing days these boats do...

ETNZ's AC50 did 21 days sailing before shipping to Bermuda.

With the AC72's only ETNZ managed to hit the 30 day limit in the first 6 month sailing period.

You cannot even launch the first boat until 6 months into the first year... so you only have to pick up 6 more months over the next 18 months. 

Artemis could literally put off sailing until the early in the Swedish summer sail one summer in Sweden and then move to Auckland and have satisfied the requirements.  They could also simply base themselves in the med (or similar southern Europe location) for their initial phase of testing and have the crew take a 2 or 3 hour flight home for the weekend and still satisfy the remaining 6 out of 18 months.

EVERY team not based in New Zealand is going to need two bases anyway...

I am sure that the crew were out on the water more than 21 days during 6 month and sailing a moth in Sweden in January is hard.

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10 hours ago, RobG said:

Australian team? About as "possible" as a Tongan, Samonan or Tuvuluan team.

Tongan team? Hadn't heard that rumour.

Mind you they would be good in cats as they have had 100's of years experience.

Oh hang on they in mono's this time.

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My understanding is that the Artemis base in Bermuda is still up and running . With the remote possibility that a preliminary regatta will be run in Bermuda and with everything in place already , it would seem probable that the Bermuda base will remain, after all that was the plan if The Cup continued with the AC CIass cat.

I would have thought that with TT's background in TP 52's and RC 44's that a monohull challenge would be a perfect fit, even with the big technical investment the team has in full foiling cats. With everything they have learned over the last 4 years,  they would have a edge in any kind of foiling boat, even a "semi-foiling" monohull.

The crew requirements really shouldn't be that big a hurdle for the team.

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1 hour ago, nav said:

Just challenge out of Bermuda with 3 RBYACers - job done

Or 3 Australians or Kiwis with Bermudan passports.

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21 hours ago, Boybland said:

Artemis could literally put off sailing until the early in the Swedish summer sail one summer in Sweden and then move to Auckland and have satisfied the requirements.  They could also simply base themselves in the med (or similar southern Europe location) for their initial phase of testing and have the crew take a 2 or 3 hour flight home for the weekend and still satisfy the remaining 6 out of 18 months.

EVERY team not based in New Zealand is going to need two bases anyway...

Yes, the travel logistics for some teams could get interesting and due to proximity to Sweden maybe for Artemis a base in a place like Valencia would be good, with frequent flights as you suggest.

The record keeping logistics may be a bit of a nightmare too - how does that get done? If Nate were to fly Valencia to Paris after sailing and the connecting flight to Gothenburg runs 45 minutes late, but still crosses into Swedish airspace at 11:45pm before landing at 12:45am, does he still get that coming day as full credit? Yikes! Lol

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This  might answer the question about whether Artemis will challenge in AC36, from a Rob Mundle blog post Stinger posted in the Oracle thread:

Quote

Larry Ellison, whose syndicate lost the America’s Cup to New Zealand in Bermuda in June this year, is believed to be close to announcing a “World Series of Sailing” based on that regatta.

Reliable sources suggest that the proposed series will be contested at a number of venues around the world. The ultimate prize will be a spectacular trophy provided by French fashion house, Louis Vuitton, which was a major sponsor in Bermuda.

Teams from the USA, Sweden, Japan and France are said to be committed to the event and others are expected to follow, including one possibly headed by two-time Cup winner, Ernesto Bertarelli.

http://www.robmundle.com/is-larry-ellisons-americas-cup-style-world-series-about-to-be-announced/

WetHog  :ph34r:

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21 hours ago, WetHog said:

Teams from the USA, Sweden, Japan and France are said to be committed to the event and others are expected to follow, including one possibly headed by two-time Cup winner, Ernesto Bertarelli.

A perfect ten for Bertarelli for sportmanship already.
Why is the nationality rule not taken in account with the coming Volvo? 
There is one team under dutch flag with point zero dutchman aboard since last friday the 13th.

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From Artemis protocol statement: 

"The most important consideration for our team is the need for a cutting-edge boat design, one that results in speeds that are as fast or faster than in the last America’s Cup held in Bermuda. The boat and race format must be seen as bringing the sport of sailing forward and inspiring young and future generations."

This fully-foiling gecko-thingy is supposed to be as fast as the AC50s,  so what do you think? Could Artemis actually consider challenging in this edition now?

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3 hours ago, Redsail said:

From Artemis protocol statement: 

"The most important consideration for our team is the need for a cutting-edge boat design, one that results in speeds that are as fast or faster than in the last America’s Cup held in Bermuda. The boat and race format must be seen as bringing the sport of sailing forward and inspiring young and future generations."

This fully-foiling gecko-thingy is supposed to be as fast as the AC50s,  so what do you think? Could Artemis actually consider challenging in this edition now?

If it is the biggest thing that the boat be a technologically-challenging competition, then I could actually see this being interesting to them.  They do have a history of thinking outside the box and really putting the investment into their campaign.  Think back to their hiring of JuanK, the purchase and modification of the ORMA (including the fitting of the wing on it, early on), etc.  There is a lot about Artemis I like and find fun to follow.  I could certainly see them having their interest piqued by this.... but not sure they will see this as truly "bringing the sport of sailing forward"?

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