sarah0809

Artemis?

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Good paragraph here,

--

 

"We need to understand the limits of these boats and that revolves a lot around the dagger boards and what they can provide in terms of lift," Cayard said. "The sooner we can understand what it means to sail near to the edge then how to create some buffer for the boat so it doesn't go over the edge and capsize, the better."

 

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Good paragraph here,

--

 

"We need to understand the limits of these boats and that revolves a lot around the dagger boards and what they can provide in terms of lift," Cayard said. "The sooner we can understand what it means to sail near to the edge then how to create some buffer for the boat so it doesn't go over the edge and capsize, the better."

 

The New Year resolution of Brother Spithill suggests he agrees with Cayard.

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20110901_101701_marinij-logo.gif

Sailing in Marin: Cayard meets America's Cup challenge on home turf

 

By Michelle Slade IJ correspondent

 

"To put it mildly, the 34th America's Cup is extremely equipment intensive. Each wing sail involves about 25,000 man-hours to design and construct, while each AC72 racing boat uses some 50,000 man-hours. Each team is allowed three wing sails and two boats. It's a massive undertaking says Paul Cayard, CEO of Artemis Racing, Challenger for the America's Cup representing the Royal Swedish Yacht Club.

 

"To give some perspective, a Version 5 boat from previous Cup events had about 22,000 to 25,000 man-hours in it and we were only allowed to build two back in those days," said Cayard, a long-time Ross resident. "We're now building seven Version 5 boats and we're still doing it in two-plus years."

 

Read the rest here ..

 

http://www.marinij.c...-challenge-home

 

For those who were trying to say that a version 5 program and a AC72 were the same cost wise were close to being equal this should prove enlightening. That is before you get into the difference between repair costs which are off the scale .

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What do you reckon an ETNZ SL33 and wing would set you back, secondhand?

 

Their boats have typically gone for "a song" in the past (although their TP52 was different since it could be used for something other than the last AC).

Maybe you can pick one up for quarter mill or less?

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What do you reckon an ETNZ SL33 and wing would set you back, secondhand?

The value depends absolutely on what the next AC boat will be .. If the next AC boat is a scaled down version of the AC72 the SL33's will continue their role as development platform and would not be sold at any price ..

 

If the next AC goes to monohulls the SL33's would go for about $100,000 each ..

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What do you reckon an ETNZ SL33 and wing would set you back, secondhand?

The value depends absolutely on what the next AC boat will be .. If the next AC boat is a scaled down version of the AC72 the SL33's will continue their role as development platform and would not be sold at any price ..

 

If the next AC goes to monohulls the SL33's would go for about $100,000 each ..

 

Hey Terry

 

The SL33s weren't developed specifically for AC, so presumably they have some value in other regattas? If not, then you're probably right that they'll be worth stuff all.

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You'd think the SL33's with wings and with ETNZ graphics are by far the sexiest ones on the planet, they must easily be worth twice any other.

 

Nice boats..

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The SL33s weren't developed specifically for AC, so presumably they have some value in other regattas?

 

Hasn't the mfr folded?

 

 

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Looks like they merged with Hudson and moved manufacturing from NZ to China. Press release is undated.

 

http://www.hakesmari...e_20120626.html

 

Looking to upgrade the quality or lower the price or both ?

 

It's probably part of the free trade agreement :) .

 

The economy definately slowed up the no of grand prix race boats being commissioned. Hakes made fantastic boats but was an expensive operation to run in a small City like Wellington.

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Agreed. Maybe they'll post another mustache video.

 

Seriously, a couple of things should be happening shortly.

The second boat should be showing up soon

The second wing needs to be tested.

Probably different foils will be tested once the new sailing period starts.

The other SF site is doing a good job of documenting on the water and Swedish Girl activitites, a couple of us will try to update land based activities.

 

Edit It sure would add to the exciement if another team (or two) came to Alameda. Maybe KBOB has some inside info.

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from another nice piece by Michelle Slade

--

... What’s the progress on Artemis’ boat 2?

 

PC: Our second boat will be launched in April here in San Francisco. We have the two AC45 events in Naples (April) and New York (May). We will try to find ways to handle those but we really just need to focus on our AC72 and San Francisco Bay, learn the racecourse and the limits of these boats. The first big challenge is going to be just to sail it well, not have it break down day in and day out in San Francisco in the summertime here in very harsh conditions.

 

more at http://www.sailingworld.com/blogs/racing/americas-cup/complexity-squared

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Good find.

" Launched in April " means it should arrive in March or sooner.

Hopefully they will give Wing 2 a try before then.

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We have the two AC45 events in Naples (April) and New York (May). We will try to find ways to handle those but we really just need to focus on our AC72 and San Francisco Bay, learn the racecourse and the limits of these boats. The first big challenge is going to be just to sail it well, not have it break down day in and day out in San Francisco in the summertime here in very harsh conditions.

 

quelle horreur!

 

AR may be looking at doing an etnz

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Looks like they merged with Hudson and moved manufacturing from NZ to China. Press release is undated.

 

http://www.hakesmari...e_20120626.html

 

Looking to upgrade the quality or lower the price or both ?

 

It's probably part of the free trade agreement :)/> .

 

The economy definately slowed up the no of grand prix race boats being commissioned. Hakes made fantastic boats but was an expensive operation to run in a small City like Wellington.

 

Hakes went into voluntary receivership and liquidated leaving many creditors unpaid. The plant and tools were auctioned off, bought by the owners

of Hakes privately and shipped to China.

 

There are some pissed of creditors.

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Looks like they merged with Hudson and moved manufacturing from NZ to China. Press release is undated.

 

http://www.hakesmari...e_20120626.html

 

Looking to upgrade the quality or lower the price or both ?

 

It's probably part of the free trade agreement :)/> .

 

The economy definately slowed up the no of grand prix race boats being commissioned. Hakes made fantastic boats but was an expensive operation to run in a small City like Wellington.

 

Hakes went into voluntary receivership and liquidated leaving many creditors unpaid. The plant and tools were auctioned off, bought by the owners

of Hakes privately and shipped to China.

 

There are some pissed of creditors.

I rather suspect Morelli & Melvin will be looking for another manufacturer for their SL33s: they would not want to be associated with such shenanigans by Hakes. I still think the SL33 is the ideal design for the Red Bull Junior WSL Series.

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Good find.

" Launched in April " means it should arrive in March or sooner.

Hopefully they will give Wing 2 a try before then.

 

Launch in April??? That only gives them 2 months to get the sucker from in the water to racing in the LVC.

That REALLY seems to be cutting things quite fine!!!

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We have the two AC45 events in Naples (April) and New York (May). We will try to find ways to handle those but we really just need to focus on our AC72

Boycott ? :lol:

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Good find.

" Launched in April " means it should arrive in March or sooner.

Hopefully they will give Wing 2 a try before then.

 

Launch in April??? That only gives them 2 months to get the sucker from in the water to racing in the LVC.

That REALLY seems to be cutting things quite fine!!!

 

and two months less than ETNZ who look almost certain to try for the easliest day they are allowed to sail.

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^

 

A good thing then that Artemis has (I'd argue) the strongest sailing team in AC34. Doesn't mean however I think they are going to win.

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^

 

A good thing then that Artemis has (I'd argue) the strongest sailing team in AC34. Doesn't mean however I think they are going to win.

 

Actually, wouldn't you have to lay your money down on Oracle for the strongest sailing team? Especially after Artemis ditched their specialist match racer.

 

Either way, April just seems too damned late for them to have a serious shot at this thing.

It will take at least month just to get to the point that they are comfortable with the reliability of the boat.

Then they have to learn how to sail it properly.

 

And God only knows what they will do if they have more breakages as with boat 1.

 

I would never write them off completely. But I am prepared to say that this does really put a damper on their chances.

Especially when they are only upto about day 10 with boat 1.

 

They just seem to be running late and missing deadlines the whole time.

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Actually, wouldn't you have to lay your money down on Oracle for the strongest sailing team?

 

Artemis has got the best apparent wind helm in the world in Outerridge, the best large multihull sailor in Peyron and a brilliant tactician in Percy. For the task in hand, I think that's a stronger combination than Spithill and Ainslie. Match racing experts - well I don't think we'll see much demand for that in AC34.

 

They just seem to be running late and missing deadlines the whole time.

 

Yes - I doubt having the best sailors is going to offset that.

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Actually, wouldn't you have to lay your money down on Oracle for the strongest sailing team?

 

Artemis has got the best apparent wind helm in the world in Outerridge, the best large multihull sailor in Peyron and a brilliant tactician in Percy. For the task in hand, I think that's a stronger combination than Spithill and Ainslie. Match racing experts - well I don't think we'll see much demand for that in AC34.

 

They just seem to be running late and missing deadlines the whole time.

 

Yes - I doubt having the best sailors is going to offset that.

 

Fair call. I do think that tagging someone in the start box could be a deciding factor. We will have to see B)

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This wing is the original one that was broken in Valencia. Yes it is heavy, overweight by some hundreds of kgs

to start with and it did not get any lighter with all the repair work.

 

The 2nd wing is almost ready, expect to see it sailing next week if not sooner. It is much better built and down to minimum

weight. They have ditched the carbon skins on the flaps and gone for the normal fabric covering. Big weight saving.

 

The 2nd boat is going together in Valencia . No info yet on when it will be shipped over.

 

April may be a deliberate bit of misinformation from Cayard. J-BIRD who has a 100% record on accurate AR updates posted that AR2 is being assembled in Valencia...

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This wing is the original one that was broken in Valencia. Yes it is heavy, overweight by some hundreds of kgs

to start with and it did not get any lighter with all the repair work.

 

The 2nd wing is almost ready, expect to see it sailing next week if not sooner. It is much better built and down to minimum

weight. They have ditched the carbon skins on the flaps and gone for the normal fabric covering. Big weight saving.

 

The 2nd boat is going together in Valencia . No info yet on when it will be shipped over.

 

April may be a deliberate bit of misinformation from Cayard. J-BIRD who has a 100% record on accurate AR updates posted that AR2 is being assembled in Valencia...

 

Maybe assembled and tested in VLC before landing in SF in April?

 

We can all speculate, right?

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This wing is the original one that was broken in Valencia. Yes it is heavy, overweight by some hundreds of kgs

to start with and it did not get any lighter with all the repair work.

 

The 2nd wing is almost ready, expect to see it sailing next week if not sooner. It is much better built and down to minimum

weight. They have ditched the carbon skins on the flaps and gone for the normal fabric covering. Big weight saving.

 

The 2nd boat is going together in Valencia . No info yet on when it will be shipped over.

 

April may be a deliberate bit of misinformation from Cayard. J-BIRD who has a 100% record on accurate AR updates posted that AR2 is being assembled in Valencia...

 

It shouldn't be to hard to track the 2nd boat if we can find a couple of interested feet on the ground in Valencia.

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This wing is the original one that was broken in Valencia. Yes it is heavy, overweight by some hundreds of kgs

to start with and it did not get any lighter with all the repair work.

 

The 2nd wing is almost ready, expect to see it sailing next week if not sooner. It is much better built and down to minimum

weight. They have ditched the carbon skins on the flaps and gone for the normal fabric covering. Big weight saving.

 

The 2nd boat is going together in Valencia . No info yet on when it will be shipped over.

 

April may be a deliberate bit of misinformation from Cayard. J-BIRD who has a 100% record on accurate AR updates posted that AR2 is being assembled in Valencia...

 

Maybe assembled and tested in VLC before landing in SF in April?

 

We can all speculate, right?

I think they can splash it on the 1st February, perhaps they're planning on doing what you're suggesting before shipping to SF in April, so it may not be as bad as some think.

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For what it's worth I'm guessing this (rumour) is more like the pre-assembly of NZ72.2 at Cookson. A post build check of fit before disassembly transport to the base, final assembly, launch etc. Doubt they'll move the team to Valencia when they are all set up in Alemeda, but.........time will tell.

 

In the mean time what has happened to Valencia Sailing, photos please

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Fairly odd that as of yesterday afternoon, Artemis has yet to put so much as a RIB back in the water in SF. Not sure what's going on there, looks more like someone abandoned ship than went away for a holiday. Not chiming in to have a discussion, just mentioning my observation, as I'm next door 5 times a week or so at the gym.

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^^

But hey it is good to have some thing to speculate on???

 

I just think with all their delays, breakages and changes to key personnel that Artemis are really up against it.

Unless they have stumbled on the right design concept whilst all other teams have not, I think they are really going to struggle.

 

I also have little confidence in Cayard to deliver. He is, in my opinion, America's answer to Chris Dickson.

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^^

But hey it is good to have some thing to speculate on???

 

I just think with all their delays, breakages and changes to key personnel that Artemis are really up against it.

Unless they have stumbled on the right design concept whilst all other teams have not, I think they are really going to struggle.

 

I also have little confidence in Cayard to deliver. He is, in my opinion, America's answer to Chris Dickson.

What exactly have you achieved which compares remotely to what Dickson and Cayard have achieved in their respective careers, which entitles you to pass criticism on them? Some of you critics need to get some historical perspective before blathering off.

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I'm now getting consistent murmurs from good sources that things are an absolute mess inside Artemis. Mismanaged, consistently late, a lack of fundamental comprehension of what is needed (from the top down), morale at an all-time low, and just generally looking like they might as well not even show up.

 

Maybe JuanK can save them, because Cayard certainly can't.

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Fairly odd that as of yesterday afternoon, Artemis has yet to put so much as a RIB back in the water in SF. Not sure what's going on there, looks more like someone abandoned ship than went away for a holiday. Not chiming in to have a discussion, just mentioning my observation, as I'm next door 5 times a week or so at the gym.

 

Some of the girls came back on the 2nd, the boys are scheduled in tomorow.

Have to agree there seems to be no real sense of urgency.

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^^

But hey it is good to have some thing to speculate on???

 

I just think with all their delays, breakages and changes to key personnel that Artemis are really up against it.

Unless they have stumbled on the right design concept whilst all other teams have not, I think they are really going to struggle.

 

I also have little confidence in Cayard to deliver. He is, in my opinion, America's answer to Chris Dickson.

What exactly have you achieved which compares remotely to what Dickson and Cayard have achieved in their respective careers, which entitles you to pass criticism on them? Some of you critics need to get some historical perspective before blathering off.

 

Hmmm, there is no need to have yachting experience or knowledge to crtitique Dickson or Cayard.

A simpe study in human nature is all that is required. Anyone with any level of perception should be able to make the same observations.

 

They both lack the skills to build or lead a team effectively, with the former in particular being a corrosive influence on any AC team in which he has been involved.

 

His autocratic, sociopathic "my way or the highway" attitude has failed time and time again

If you want a group of people to jell as a team, you have to entrust them with the authority to do their own work.

Dickson is a classic counter example to this and Cayard is not a lot better.

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I'm now getting consistent murmurs from good sources that things are an absolute mess inside Artemis. Mismanaged, consistently late, a lack of fundamental comprehension of what is needed (from the top down), morale at an all-time low, and just generally looking like they might as well not even show up.

 

Maybe JuanK can save them, because Cayard certainly can't.

 

Not surprising. Terry getting ditched sent the message that no one's position is safe in the team, so you best protect your position by holding onto knowledge rather than sharing it and collaborating. A classic case of Teamicide:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-Second/dp/0932633439/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357543690&sr=1-1&keywords=peopleware

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.. there is no need to have yachting experience or knowledge to crtitique Dickson or Cayard.

A simpe study in human nature is all that is required. Anyone with any level of perception should be able to make the same observations.

 

They both lack the skills to build or lead a team effectively, with the former in particular being a corrosive influence on any AC team in which he has been involved.

 

His autocratic, sociopathic "my way or the highway" attitude has failed time and time again

If you want a group of people to jell as a team, you have to entrust them with the authority to do their own work.

Dickson is a classic counter example to this and Cayard is not a lot better.

Let us say for arguments sake that you have done "a simple study of human nature" and are right about Dickson and Cayard ..

 

Now compare them to GD ..

 

All three have been employed by somebody to do a job .. GD was employed by the TNZ Trustees .. the Trustees (who happen to be experienced sailors and businessmen) did a good job when they chose GD ..

 

Cayard has been employed by someone who owns or works for Artemis .. If as you say Cayard is not suitable for the job he has been employed to do .. who's fault is that who failed to do a "a simple study of human nature" ?? .. If you are right that would make his employer incompetent ..

 

I am sure you get the point so we don't need to involve Dickson in this ..

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Dicko's alright and he's a damn clever sailor. He was hustled in 87 By some wiley old men. His stint with Larry was a bit of a mess, but I think his boat was shit. I think he's actually a nice guy and perhaps is a better natural helmsman than Barker ?

 

But none of them are anywhere near Russell in his prime.

 

My Opinion of course.

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Maybe JuanK can save them, because Cayard certainly can't.

Artemis should replace Cayard by LP if possible and not too late.

While I have a lot of respect for LP his lack of experience in the AC would be a problem .. at least Cayard has years of experience in several AC's .. it is apparent though that there is a lack of leadership in AR ..

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Lots of bullshit in this thread lately.

As you clearly have inside knowldege we would appreciate some bits of info.

 

- Boat: why did they only sail 8 days ? why did they avoid strong winds ? is the from beam too much ahead ? when do they sail again ?

 

- Team : is there a leadership crisis ? what is the morale of the team ? why these rumors ?

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.. there is no need to have yachting experience or knowledge to crtitique Dickson or Cayard.

A simpe study in human nature is all that is required. Anyone with any level of perception should be able to make the same observations.

 

They both lack the skills to build or lead a team effectively, with the former in particular being a corrosive influence on any AC team in which he has been involved.

 

His autocratic, sociopathic "my way or the highway" attitude has failed time and time again

If you want a group of people to jell as a team, you have to entrust them with the authority to do their own work.

Dickson is a classic counter example to this and Cayard is not a lot better.

Let us say for arguments sake that you have done "a simple study of human nature" and are right about Dickson and Cayard ..

 

Now compare them to GD ..

 

All three have been employed by somebody to do a job .. GD was employed by the TNZ Trustees .. the Trustees (who happen to be experienced sailors and businessmen) did a good job when they chose GD ..

 

Cayard has been employed by someone who owns or works for Artemis .. If as you say Cayard is not suitable for the job he has been employed to do .. who's fault is that who failed to do a "a simple study of human nature" ?? .. If you are right that would make his employer incompetent ..

 

I am sure you get the point so we don't need to involve Dickson in this ..

 

Terry, you are right that the ETNZ trustees did a magnificent job in hiring GD.

 

However, Dickson is the perfect counter example to GD (Cayard is not good, but not as bad). He has proven corrosive time an time again.

I still remember his last challenge as skipper aboard OR.

He was screaming orders to his team, treating them as mere "marionettes" whose sole purpose was to do his bidding rather than the seasoned and brilliant professionals that they are.

 

He was as George W Bush put it "The Decider".

 

If you treat highly capable people in this manner, you are pissing them off and destroying the fabric of the team.

You could do little more damage than to line your team in front of a firing squad.

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Dicko's alright and he's a damn clever sailor. He was hustled in 87 By some wiley old men. His stint with Larry was a bit of a mess, but I think his boat was shit. I think he's actually a nice guy and perhaps is a better natural helmsman than Barker ?

 

But none of them are anywhere near Russell in his prime.

 

My Opinion of course.

 

You are right, he was/is an excellent helmsman and you may also be right that he is a nice guy.

 

However, the point I made was that he had a corrosive effect on every AC team he was involved in.

This very effect means that he was a nett liability to these teams regardless of his other numerous talents.

 

Compare him with Russell, whose most valuable skill is the ability to build teams.

Great sailor? Check.

Nice guy? Probably so.

 

But none of this compares to his value in causing teams to form effectively.

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Maybe JuanK can save them, because Cayard certainly can't.

Artemis should replace Cayard by LP if possible and not too late.

While I have a lot of respect for LP his lack of experience in the AC would be a problem .. at least Cayard has years of experience in several AC's .. it is apparent though that there is a lack of leadership in AR ..

 

Agreed Terry.

Cayard should (ideally) be replaced, but only by someone suitable.

Peyron is by no means suitable for the reason you have given.

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.. there is no need to have yachting experience or knowledge to crtitique Dickson or Cayard.

A simpe study in human nature is all that is required. Anyone with any level of perception should be able to make the same observations.

 

They both lack the skills to build or lead a team effectively, with the former in particular being a corrosive influence on any AC team in which he has been involved.

 

His autocratic, sociopathic "my way or the highway" attitude has failed time and time again

If you want a group of people to jell as a team, you have to entrust them with the authority to do their own work.

Dickson is a classic counter example to this and Cayard is not a lot better.

Let us say for arguments sake that you have done "a simple study of human nature" and are right about Dickson and Cayard ..

 

Now compare them to GD ..

 

All three have been employed by somebody to do a job .. GD was employed by the TNZ Trustees .. the Trustees (who happen to be experienced sailors and businessmen) did a good job when they chose GD ..

 

Cayard has been employed by someone who owns or works for Artemis .. If as you say Cayard is not suitable for the job he has been employed to do .. who's fault is that who failed to do a "a simple study of human nature" ?? .. If you are right that would make his employer incompetent ..

 

I am sure you get the point so we don't need to involve Dickson in this ..

 

Terry, you are right that the ETNZ trustees did a magnificent job in hiring GD.

 

However, Dickson is the perfect counter example to GD (Cayard is not good, but not as bad). He has proven corrosive time an time again.

I still remember his last challenge as skipper aboard OR.

He was screaming orders to his team, treating them as mere "marionettes" whose sole purpose was to do his bidding rather than the seasoned and brilliant professionals that they are.

 

He was as George W Bush put it "The Decider".

 

If you treat highly capable people in this manner, you are pissing them off and destroying the fabric of the team.

You could do little more damage than to line your team in front of a firing squad.

I don't know what Dickson has to do with Artemis but the same thing applies .. if you employ someone to do a job and he is unable to do the job because of a lack of people skills you are the one who made the mistake .. not the person who was promoted beyond his skill set ..

 

There are plenty of examples of suitable people with a track record of success in leading a team so there is no excuse for not learning from them as to what is required ..

 

When a new team is assembled in any situation the AC has a great record of complete failure by new teams because of the owners seemingly being unable to employ the right people ..

 

Alinghi for all their faults did show everyone how to start up a new team .

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.. there is no need to have yachting experience or knowledge to crtitique Dickson or Cayard.

A simpe study in human nature is all that is required. Anyone with any level of perception should be able to make the same observations.

 

They both lack the skills to build or lead a team effectively, with the former in particular being a corrosive influence on any AC team in which he has been involved.

 

His autocratic, sociopathic "my way or the highway" attitude has failed time and time again

If you want a group of people to jell as a team, you have to entrust them with the authority to do their own work.

Dickson is a classic counter example to this and Cayard is not a lot better.

Let us say for arguments sake that you have done "a simple study of human nature" and are right about Dickson and Cayard ..

 

Now compare them to GD ..

 

All three have been employed by somebody to do a job .. GD was employed by the TNZ Trustees .. the Trustees (who happen to be experienced sailors and businessmen) did a good job when they chose GD ..

 

Cayard has been employed by someone who owns or works for Artemis .. If as you say Cayard is not suitable for the job he has been employed to do .. who's fault is that who failed to do a "a simple study of human nature" ?? .. If you are right that would make his employer incompetent ..

 

I am sure you get the point so we don't need to involve Dickson in this ..

 

Terry, you are right that the ETNZ trustees did a magnificent job in hiring GD.

 

However, Dickson is the perfect counter example to GD (Cayard is not good, but not as bad). He has proven corrosive time an time again.

I still remember his last challenge as skipper aboard OR.

He was screaming orders to his team, treating them as mere "marionettes" whose sole purpose was to do his bidding rather than the seasoned and brilliant professionals that they are.

 

He was as George W Bush put it "The Decider".

 

If you treat highly capable people in this manner, you are pissing them off and destroying the fabric of the team.

You could do little more damage than to line your team in front of a firing squad.

I don't know what Dickson has to do with Artemis but the same thing applies .. if you employ someone to do a job and he is unable to do the job because of a lack of people skills you are the one who made the mistake .. not the person who was promoted beyond his skill set ..

 

There are plenty of examples of suitable people with a track record of success in leading a team so there is no excuse for not learning from them as to what is required ..

 

When a new team is assembled in any situation the AC has a great record of complete failure by new teams because of the owners seemingly being unable to employ the right people ..

 

Alinghi for all their faults did show everyone how to start up a new team .

 

My original point was that Cayard and Dickson suffer similar problems, to differing degrees.

 

I agree that ultimately the blame lies with whoever hired Cayard. However, this does not lessen the point I have made about him.

 

With regards to Alinghi. It would be fair to say that the bought the core of an existing team so I am not sure this is a fair statement.

That said, Russell is expert at developing teams and without him on board, they would likely not have succeeded.

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

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the proof is in the pudding

 

and so far we have 2 plum duffs

 

Pudding.jpg

 

and 2 light meringues

 

meringue-berry-m.jpg

 

time will tell

 

which flies well

 

in san francisco sun

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

Two major breakages. IIRC only 8 days AC72 sailing completed to date. The skipper has been thrown off the team. The CEO has said if they'd anticipated the Jury decision on foils Artemis would have "made different decisions". I'd call that catalogue of setbacks a bit more than mere "speculation".

 

Btw I'm a fan of both Iain Percy and Loïck Peyron and if Artemis does better than I'm expecting them to, that's fine with me.

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.. there is no need to have yachting experience or knowledge to crtitique Dickson or Cayard.

A simpe study in human nature is all that is required. Anyone with any level of perception should be able to make the same observations.

 

They both lack the skills to build or lead a team effectively, with the former in particular being a corrosive influence on any AC team in which he has been involved.

 

His autocratic, sociopathic "my way or the highway" attitude has failed time and time again

If you want a group of people to jell as a team, you have to entrust them with the authority to do their own work.

Dickson is a classic counter example to this and Cayard is not a lot better.

Let us say for arguments sake that you have done "a simple study of human nature" and are right about Dickson and Cayard ..

 

Now compare them to GD ..

 

All three have been employed by somebody to do a job .. GD was employed by the TNZ Trustees .. the Trustees (who happen to be experienced sailors and businessmen) did a good job when they chose GD ..

 

Cayard has been employed by someone who owns or works for Artemis .. If as you say Cayard is not suitable for the job he has been employed to do .. who's fault is that who failed to do a "a simple study of human nature" ?? .. If you are right that would make his employer incompetent ..

 

I am sure you get the point so we don't need to involve Dickson in this ..

 

Terry, you are right that the ETNZ trustees did a magnificent job in hiring GD.

 

However, Dickson is the perfect counter example to GD (Cayard is not good, but not as bad). He has proven corrosive time an time again.

I still remember his last challenge as skipper aboard OR.

He was screaming orders to his team, treating them as mere "marionettes" whose sole purpose was to do his bidding rather than the seasoned and brilliant professionals that they are.

 

He was as George W Bush put it "The Decider".

 

If you treat highly capable people in this manner, you are pissing them off and destroying the fabric of the team.

You could do little more damage than to line your team in front of a firing squad.

I don't know what Dickson has to do with Artemis but the same thing applies .. if you employ someone to do a job and he is unable to do the job because of a lack of people skills you are the one who made the mistake .. not the person who was promoted beyond his skill set ..

 

There are plenty of examples of suitable people with a track record of success in leading a team so there is no excuse for not learning from them as to what is required ..

 

When a new team is assembled in any situation the AC has a great record of complete failure by new teams because of the owners seemingly being unable to employ the right people ..

 

Alinghi for all their faults did show everyone how to start up a new team .

 

My original point was that Cayard and Dickson suffer similar problems, to differing degrees.

 

I agree that ultimately the blame lies with whoever hired Cayard. However, this does not lessen the point I have made about him.

 

With regards to Alinghi. It would be fair to say that the bought the core of an existing team so I am not sure this is a fair statement.

That said, Russell is expert at developing teams and without him on board, they would likely not have succeeded.

 

PC has been running TT's RC44 program for a number of years, with certain degrees of success between the two boats, and so was a natural hire when it came to who was going to run his campaign. He had seen PC in action and obviously liked what he saw.

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

 

How many people have quit or been fired over the past 8 weeks?

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

 

How many people have quit or been fired over the past 8 weeks?

 

Wouldn't it be a bigger surprise if they weren't making changes?

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

 

How many people have quit or been fired over the past 8 weeks?

 

Wouldn't it be a bigger surprise if they weren't making changes?

 

Making changes to a team like this at any stage in a campaign is a pretty serious warning bell.

This late in the piece, its just plain scary.

 

This sort of thing causes untold damage to ANY team (sports or otherwise), such as:

 

- People no longer feel secure in their position and start trying to protect it in counter productive ways (hoarding knowledge, etc.).

- People feel angry that their friends have been given the arse.

- Back bitching and sometimes back stabbing starts.

 

Once all these symptoms start to take place, it is almost impossible to turn it around.

It is pretty optimistic to believe that the same management structure that built this dysfunctional team culture can possibly turn it around.

 

It may be possible that JuanK has built a boat so much faster than everyone elses that the team dysfunction won't matter.

Who knows. But they need some pretty significant technological edge to compensate for their sociological problems.

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... Russell is expert at developing teams and without him on board, they would likely not have succeeded.

Brad Butterworth did a pretty good job of handing us out butts in 2007....and I don't recall Russell Coutts anywhere on the scene. You spout off a lot of presumptions over two of the most successful professional sailors on the planet. Let me guess - sports "psychologist"?

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

 

How many people have quit or been fired over the past 8 weeks?

 

I haven't heard of any big exit, but things have been quiet over the holidays.

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There are many who don't buy the foiling hipe and want Artemis to concentrate on proving non-foiling is competitive.

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There was a reference somewhere to TH being not the only one released. Whoever all were included likely are unhappy about that.

 

It's also possible that signings and releases happen as the various stages in a team's cycle ramp up and down for re-emphasis or other reasons.

 

OT but on PC's FB page he says he is back in Alameda today.

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I'm now getting consistent murmurs from good sources that things are an absolute mess inside Artemis. Mismanaged, consistently late, a lack of fundamental comprehension of what is needed (from the top down), morale at an all-time low, and just generally looking like they might as well not even show up.

 

Maybe JuanK can save them, because Cayard certainly can't.

you gotta be kidding? tnz as next cor? so soon?

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Making changes to a team like this at any stage in a campaign is a pretty serious warning bell.

 

My warning bells are a lot simpler when it comes to big pro teams; when things are going well, I don't hear shit. When I start getting skype messages that start with 'this is completely confidential, but..." from deep insiders, it is almost invariably the beginning of the end.

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Making changes to a team like this at any stage in a campaign is a pretty serious warning bell.

 

My warning bells are a lot simpler when it comes to big pro teams; when things are going well, I don't hear shit. When I start getting skype messages that start with 'this is completely confidential, but..." from deep insiders, it is almost invariably the beginning of the end.

You just keep cultivating them deepthroats Cleanmeister! When are you going to do a 1-on-1 with Pete Melvin? Interested anarchists want to know..

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

 

How many people have quit or been fired over the past 8 weeks?

 

You'd have to find a copy of the old team roster and compare it to the new team roster but someone who did told me it was mostly engineering and fabrication staff.

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

 

How many people have quit or been fired over the past 8 weeks?

 

You'd have to find a copy of the old team roster and compare it to the new team roster but someone who did told me it was mostly engineering and fabrication staff.

 

 

Will boat two even get splashed ???? May run out of time

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... Russell is expert at developing teams and without him on board, they would likely not have succeeded.

Brad Butterworth did a pretty good job of handing us out butts in 2007....and I don't recall Russell Coutts anywhere on the scene. You spout off a lot of presumptions over two of the most successful professional sailors on the planet. Let me guess - sports "psychologist"?

 

I never said that Brad wasn't excellent, clearly he is.

However, by the time he took the lead at Alinghi:

 

1. The team was already formed.

2. The team had the fastest IACC upon which to base their next generation.

 

It is a testament to GD that he took a broken team with a previous generation of boat that was so poor in so many ways that ETNZ managed to put up such a credible challenge.

Losing 5-2 after all is no whitewash, especially with the last race being lost by 1 second.

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Cayards last cup then ? gone burger

 

Dunno, took Dickson a long time to finally cook his own goose.

I have been continually amazed over the years that Cayard not only keeps getting a start in these teams, but actually moves up the ladder!

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I would ask people claiming the team to be in disarray and having leadership issues to prove it, but thats of course difficult. Point is such statements are only speculation given what i´ve heard.

 

And Cayard wasn't the one wanting TH of the boat an ultimately the team.

 

How many people have quit or been fired over the past 8 weeks?

 

You'd have to find a copy of the old team roster and compare it to the new team roster but someone who did told me it was mostly engineering and fabrication staff.

 

 

Will boat two even get splashed ???? May run out of time

 

Nah, they'll get there.

The unknowns are:

 

1. Will they have time to extract the full performance (or anything like it) from the boat?

2. Will the boat be up to sailing in heavy conditions (why has boat 1 been mostly out on a mill pond?)

3. Will the team be sufficiently jelled to sail the boat

 

If you look at all the other teams, their line up is settled and locked in for good reason.

The ETNZ team is typically very cohesive, with both OR and LR looking similarly so.

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This could equally go on the ETNZ thread. But this thread needs something positive so......

 

The only 'neutral' comparison between broadly the AR and ETNZ style foils reveals;

 

"Today tested our 'TNZ foils' on the DNA, together with Mischa and Arno.

6th of January, and 10 degrees C !

Although these foils are not class-legal on the A class, it is good fun to see if the A cat can fly!

And it can fly ! not much wind , but downwind with 11/12 knts it lifts clear out of the water... balancing on the rudder T foils, which are standard on the DNA now.

All three of us don't think it will give any benefits on the race course, because of the extra drag upwind.

We think our new J boards are the smart solution. See dnacatamaran.com"

 

tnz+foil+3.jpg

 

 

The other thing I note is something I have suggested - despite the negativism of 'old hands' here. Namely that the multihullers do view the AC development as very significant;

 

As always I think we are privileged to be living current Americas Cup times with developments that are going to be a milestone in the history of the sport.http://www.catsailingnews.com/?m=1

 

 

Even going as far as voting NZ72.1 as multihull of 2012 https://www.facebook.../catsailingnews

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Making changes to a team like this at any stage in a campaign is a pretty serious warning bell.

 

My warning bells are a lot simpler when it comes to big pro teams; when things are going well, I don't hear shit. When I start getting skype messages that start with 'this is completely confidential, but..." from deep insiders, it is almost invariably the beginning of the end.

You just keep cultivating them deepthroats Cleanmeister! When are you going to do a 1-on-1 with Pete Melvin? Interested anarchists want to know..

 

There was a time here on SA that 'rumours and lies' like this would make front page news - now we get some drivel about how the Ed got a free kite ..... Is this AC becoming that irrelevant ???

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It is a testament to GD that he took a broken team with a previous generation of boat that was so poor in so many ways that ETNZ managed to put up such a credible challenge.

Losing 5-2 after all is no whitewash, especially with the last race being lost by 1 second.

 

How exactly was NZL92 a "previous generation" IACC? Its revolutionary bow was copied by most of the other teams including the defenders.

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Even Artemis is getting into the holiday spirits...

 

naked-sailing-sailboat.jpg

I did not know my girlfriend was making this kind of photos

 

You couldn't rent a girl like that even if you had Larry's wallet.

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It is a testament to GD that he took a broken team with a previous generation of boat that was so poor in so many ways that ETNZ managed to put up such a credible challenge.

Losing 5-2 after all is no whitewash, especially with the last race being lost by 1 second.

 

How exactly was NZL92 a "previous generation" IACC? Its revolutionary bow was copied by most of the other teams including the defenders.

 

I think it was the bow shape from their AC30 defender that was widely copied, except by SUI100 which defended in AC32.

 

Speaking of SUI100, has its shape and keel design, etc. been revealed and figured-out how it could live on NZL92's hip all day long?

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In an interview about his ETNZ days TH stated SUI100´s bulb was 300kg heavier, I don´t know if that tells the whole story though.

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It is a testament to GD that he took a broken team with a previous generation of boat that was so poor in so many ways that ETNZ managed to put up such a credible challenge.

Losing 5-2 after all is no whitewash, especially with the last race being lost by 1 second.

 

How exactly was NZL92 a "previous generation" IACC? Its revolutionary bow was copied by most of the other teams including the defenders.

 

I think it was the bow shape from their AC30 defender that was widely copied, except by SUI100 which defended in AC32.

 

Speaking of SUI100, has its shape and keel design, etc. been revealed and figured-out how it could live on NZL92's hip all day long?

Was said by a reliable source that a scaled model of nz's ac30 defender to be was accidentally dropped, smashing the bow. The model hastily replaced on the table, lines were then taken from the model, and lofted for the build.

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It is a testament to GD that he took a broken team with a previous generation of boat that was so poor in so many ways that ETNZ managed to put up such a credible challenge.

Losing 5-2 after all is no whitewash, especially with the last race being lost by 1 second.

 

How exactly was NZL92 a "previous generation" IACC? Its revolutionary bow was copied by most of the other teams including the defenders.

 

I think it was the bow shape from their AC30 defender that was widely copied, except by SUI100 which defended in AC32.

 

Speaking of SUI100, has its shape and keel design, etc. been revealed and figured-out how it could live on NZL92's hip all day long?

Was said by a reliable source that a scaled model of nz's ac30 defender to be was accidentally dropped, smashing the bow. The model hastily replaced on the table, lines were then taken from the model, and lofted for the build.

 

It s better to be lucky than good :)

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It is a testament to GD that he took a broken team with a previous generation of boat that was so poor in so many ways that ETNZ managed to put up such a credible challenge.

Losing 5-2 after all is no whitewash, especially with the last race being lost by 1 second.

 

How exactly was NZL92 a "previous generation" IACC? Its revolutionary bow was copied by most of the other teams including the defenders.

 

Please read what I said again.

The previous generation of boat that ETNZ had (i.e. the 2003 defence boat) was a POS (Piece of Shit).

Consequently, ETNZ had a lot of ground to cover.

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I'm now getting consistent murmurs from good sources that things are an absolute mess inside Artemis. Mismanaged, consistently late, a lack of fundamental comprehension of what is needed (from the top down), morale at an all-time low, and just generally looking like they might as well not even show up.

 

Maybe JuanK can save them, because Cayard certainly can't.

They need to get downunder preferably flying Emirates, hire a Toyota, get down to the local beach, garb a coffee and open the checkbook!

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