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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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sarah0809

Artemis?

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Something will be done , it just has to .

 

Foremost, is the sadness felt for the individuals and families of those hurt and deceased. I was hoping to see some good video this afternoon. That was not to be.

 

Beyond that, from memory, I think that both teams who have capsized have had 50 outings at best in the Bay. Not a comfortable probability going forward at this ratio. There are lots of contributing elements, some may need to be removed less they have to sail AC45's as the big boats are on the sidelines in pieces.

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THANKS RUSSELL and LARRY.........

 

You sir are a huge piece of shit. You think Russell and Larry and sitting in a mansion laughing at this? No, they are heartbroken to the core.

 

Die slow asshole.

Absolutely no class, intelligence or tact whatsoever.

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Well said.......

 

OK, stop and think for a moment.

 

Everyone sailing these boats knows that there are risks. These are big high powered boats by design.

 

"No risk" is not even part of the equation when pushing any big fast boat like these are meant to be pushed.

 

Everyone sailing these boats is a competitor and I will give you ten to one odds that most every one would say "if I was the one that was lost, I would want may team to just fix what went wrong, then jump back in and try to win it"

 

 

Yes any boat structural failure would need to be looked at carefully. If it was such a failure, does anyone question that it will be investigated adequately?

 

Any design/construction issue can be corrected.

 

Once the details become better known, the other teams should also double check to see if there are any lessons they need to deal with.

 

 

Yes this will be a big hit to the team emotionally.

 

I say we offer condolences, support and cheer them on to respond professionally and then get back into the game.

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Well said.......

 

OK, stop and think for a moment.

 

Everyone sailing these boats knows that there are risks. These are big high powered boats by design.

 

"No risk" is not even part of the equation when pushing any big fast boat like these are meant to be pushed.

 

Everyone sailing these boats is a competitor and I will give you ten to one odds that most every one would say "if I was the one that was lost, I would want may team to just fix what went wrong, then jump back in and try to win it"

 

 

Yes any boat structural failure would need to be looked at carefully. If it was such a failure, does anyone question that it will be investigated adequately?

 

Any design/construction issue can be corrected.

 

Once the details become better known, the other teams should also double check to see if there are any lessons they need to deal with.

 

 

Yes this will be a big hit to the team emotionally.

 

I say we offer condolences, support and cheer them on to respond professionally and then get back into the game.

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Something will be done , it just has to .

 

Foremost, is the sadness felt for the individuals and families of those hurt and deceased. I was hoping to see some good video this afternoon. That was not to be.

 

Beyond that, from memory, I think that both teams who have capsized have had 50 outings at best in the Bay. Not a comfortable probability going forward at this ratio. There are lots of contributing elements, some may need to be removed less they have to sail AC45's as the big boats are on the sidelines in pieces.

 

 

The part that is the most troubling is that both capsizes happened when the boats were on their own, making moves when and where they wanted to. Come race time they will not have that luxury and will have to make split second decisions often based on what the other guy is doing not what you want to do. The ratio as you mentioned is will no doubt be even worse under these conditions. There will be much more about this at a later time , lets just get thru the shock of this afternoon and hope its not something we will do too frequently in the future.

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Its an unfortunate by product of sailing becoming faster and more exciting. Crashes will happen, boats will break and at higher speeds, more injuries or worse will occur. This is the same with all sports.

I just hope we don't see boat on boat collisions and the carbon confetti that would result from this.

 

It's not "the same with all sports" - Formula One for example has seen the death rate drop from over one driver per year in the '50s and '60s to zero fatalities in the last 18 years. There may be no other sport that has accepted a rising or static death rate like sailing seems to.

 

As someone whose father (a regional champion with a wife pregnant with her fourth child) was killed in an accident in an early and un-developed cat, I have to say that those left behind may not find much consolation in the fact that their beloved was taken in the cause of sailing faster. That is not worth losing a father and husband for.

 

We may all feel the tragedy and post condolences, but that will not really reduce the tragedy of people being killed in this sport. Making boats safer will.

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OK, stop and think for a moment.

 

Everyone sailing these boats knows that there are risks. These are big high powered boats by design.

 

"No risk" is not even part of the equation when pushing any big fast boat like these are meant to be pushed.

 

Everyone sailing these boats is a competitor and I will give you ten to one odds that most every one would say "if I was the one that was lost, I would want may team to just fix what went wrong, then jump back in and try to win it"

 

 

Yes any boat structural failure would need to be looked at carefully. If it was such a failure, does anyone question that it will be investigated adequately?

 

Any design/construction issue can be corrected.

 

Once the details become better known, the other teams should also double check to see if there are any lessons they need to deal with.

 

 

Yes this will be a big hit to the team emotionally.

 

I say we offer condolences, support and cheer them on to respond professionally and then get back into the game.

 

Very Well said.

 

But the ruth is... are really multihulls what we want?? True, the AC deserves top high end technology. I like these beasts... and we all know sailing can be a dangerous sport.... but i really don't know what is going to happen with the AC, respect to the US police manners.

 

I think Bart would like to have his friends remember him and that the show must keep going. But lets see what happens.

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THANKS RUSSELL and LARRY.........

 

You sir are a huge piece of shit. You think Russell and Larry and sitting in a mansion laughing at this? No, they are heartbroken to the core.

 

Die slow asshole.

Agreed ... rarely motivated to comment, but you are truly an asshole

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I think we need to be prepared for very bad news. Local news station reporting CPR has not been successfull.

Hope they're wrong. This is just terrible

They are not wrong, CPR is never successful, and when it is the outcomes can be worse than death. For those who want to learn more about the realities of CPR do yourself a favor and listen to this podcast. I am getting my "No Code" tattoo soon.

 

http://<iframe width="474" height="54" frameborder="0" src="//www.radiolab.org/widgets/ondemand_player/#file=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radiolab.org%2Faudio%2Fxspf%2F262588%2F;containerClass=radiolab"></iframe>

Another insensitive SOB who just doesn't get it!

 

Mate, this is a time to honour the memory of a great guy and an incredible short life.

 

Devastating news for family and friends and a huge kick in the guts for the Artemis guys, especially his Olympic skipper Iain Percy

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OK, stop and think for a moment.

 

Everyone sailing these boats knows that there are risks. These are big high powered boats by design.

 

"No risk" is not even part of the equation when pushing any big fast boat like these are meant to be pushed.

 

Everyone sailing these boats is a competitor and I will give you ten to one odds that most every one would say "if I was the one that was lost, I would want may team to just fix what went wrong, then jump back in and try to win it"

 

 

Yes any boat structural failure would need to be looked at carefully. If it was such a failure, does anyone question that it will be investigated adequately?

 

Any design/construction issue can be corrected.

 

Once the details become better known, the other teams should also double check to see if there are any lessons they need to deal with.

 

 

Yes this will be a big hit to the team emotionally.

 

I say we offer condolences, support and cheer them on to respond professionally and then get back into the game.

 

 

I'd take a harder line than this. Sure risks are part of sports and life in general, but we need to try to minimize them. It's only after this has been done that someone's death can be regarded as a tragic accident.

 

Andrew Simpson had a young family and he was a professional in what should be a fairly safe sport of round the buoys sailing.

 

There needs to be a long hard look at these boats and a serious effort to minimize risks before there are any more accidents.

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Sorry... posting from phone.

 

Thank you KJ... +1

 

I think we need to be prepared for very bad news. Local news station reporting CPR has not been successfull.

Hope they're wrong. This is just terrible

They are not wrong, CPR is never successful, and when it is the outcomes can be worse than death. For those who want to learn more about the realities of CPR do yourself a favor and listen to this podcast. I am getting my "No Code" tattoo soon.

 

http://<iframe width="474" height="54" frameborder="0" src="//www.radiolab.org/widgets/ondemand_player/#file=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radiolab.org%2Faudio%2Fxspf%2F262588%2F;containerClass=radiolab"></iframe>

Another insensitive SOB who just doesn't get it!

 

Mate, this is a time to honour the memory of a great guy and an incredible short life.

 

Devastating news for family and friends and a huge kick in the guts for the Artemis guys, especially his Olympic skipper Iain Percy

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What has always concerned me is the enviable 'are we going to cross?', situation.

 

Two boats closing at 40kts....................

I wonder whether we'll now see a virtual 3-boat-length restriction all the way around the race course...

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But, back then when catastrophic failure happened it wasn't necessarily game over for those challenges.

It was for dennis when S&S sank to the bottom.

Sure, but it wasn't for OneAustralia, Young America, or TNZ when they sunk boats and dropped rigs.

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PD has a link to Channel 7 coverage.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k3l23jmn42amps8/kgo-050913-ks-5pm-capsize-victim-2.flv

 

Watching stock video of ARs boat in action on the Ch7 piece I noticed the grinder station way aft on the hull, and the 2 crew grinding basically standing on top of the hull elevated above the rest of the crew.

 

Is that where the central grinder station was relocated to? The grinder station and crew looked very out of place back there and exposed. Especially with the hull out of the water to the wind. If that is where Simpson was located at the time of the accident, especially if he was the grinder facing aft, I can see why he didn't make it. Long way to fall backwards into the water. Most likely knocked out on impact, or killed instantly.

 

Very sad day.

 

WetHog

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One of the best things about sailing is that those who participate are part of a family. That's why we can feel instantly at home amongst sailors wherever we are. Like all families there are leaders and followers, stars and also-rans, comforters and accusers, and, yes, a few arseholes.

 

Today we have lost a member of our family who was doing what he loved. We must remeber him, mourn him, celebrate his life, and offer our love and support to those closest to him.

 

There will be a time for a detailed technical inquest about why the incident that took Bart's life happened, and, hopefully it will lead to improvements in safety and a moderation of risk. But without risk there is little achievement. Today's risk averse society leaves little opportunity for us to enjoy the life affirmng experience of safely overcoming the elemental forces that exist everywhere in nature. I hope that the outcomes of this terrible event will not include a further tightenin of the dull, grey, bureaucratic grip that suffocates much of our lives and the sport we love.

 

Vale Bart. Fair winds, smooth seas, and a quiet harbour at journeys end.

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But, back then when catastrophic failure happened it wasn't necessarily game over for those challenges.

It was for dennis when S&S sank to the bottom.

Sure, but it wasn't for OneAustralia, Young America, or TNZ when they sunk boats and dropped rigs.

 

That's true of course and I do not recall in any of those situations any of the crew getting anything beyond wet.

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that centerpod was removed a few weeks ago

Right, but where was the grinding stations relocated to? The farthest aft grinding station I saw on the Ch7 piece didn't look right. Looked out of place. Like they stuck it there in place of the central station. Others have said Simpsons position was in the back grinding. If that is the case that explains what happened to him. Exposed position with nothing to grab on to. Tragic

 

WetHog

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Somewhere a Dad is sitting there crying. His kid will never walk through the door again. "Hey Dad , I'm home."

 

 

But I applaud the guys who want to sail these monsters.

My deepest sympathies to "Bart's" parents. It's a pain I know.

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It seems the leeward hull was the correct way up after the capsize, indicating the main beam broke before the capsize.

If that happened, then that would have been a seriously violent crash as the beam hit the water and the boat folded itself around the point of impact

 

My thoughts are with Artemis and the sailors families and friends.

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Sailing boats day-to-day in enclosed waters should never be so dangerous that it is considered normal attrition to lose $10m boats and kill and maim crew members.

 

When space travel is cheaper and safer than AC sailing you have to ask some questions. That will come of course.

 

It's extremely distressing to think Andrew stepped out the door, probably very enthusiastically, to head off for 'work' never to return. As a father myself and an active sailor, I find the thought of how this will affect his family very, very sad.

 

The tributes for Andrew have been impressive. He did some great things and was massively respected. Hopefully in the future there will be a moment when Iain Percy, Ben Ainslie and the rest of that 'posse' will have the opportunity to win the cup for 'Bart'.

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This is a shock. You expect injuries in this sport but not fatalities. My heart and prayers are with the Simpson family.

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Somewhere a Dad is sitting there crying. His kid will never walk through the door again. "Hey Dad , I'm home."

 

 

But I applaud the guys who want to sail these monsters.

My deepest sympathies to "Bart's" parents. It's a pain I know.

 

+1

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Got off the boat tonight, the 40' multi of course, and all were shocked to hear this news. Read the news slowly as SAAC was ovewhelmed trying to get logged-on with an I-phone.

 

Just tragic, but it will be reviewed and time taken to determine what happened, how to fix it, and move forward.

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Somewhere a Dad is sitting there crying. His kid will never walk through the door again. "Hey Dad , I'm home."

 

 

But I applaud the guys who want to sail these monsters.

My deepest sympathies to "Bart's" parents. It's a pain I know.

 

+1

+2

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So will the Coast Guard investigate because of the tragic fatality? What's the process in SF?

 

I would think the Coast Guard would have a look at it but I am not sure of what policies or procedures they could enforce based on their investigation.

 

The one group that could possibly cause a serious problem ,as in complete cancellation of the event , would be OSHA. You do not mess with Occupational Safety and Health Administration in CA.

 

 

You do realize, doncha, that OSHA has zero control over a sporting event?....

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_Safety_and_Health_Administration

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Firstly Condolences, Time and Fond Memories should be your friend right now.

 

Someone asked about a coast guard investigation, I'm guessing if this was AUS and these guys are professional ie: paid, there might be some sort of workcover investigation, similar to a death on a building site? Do they do that in the US? Do the authorities have the power to shut down perceived dangerous work places, or modify safety procedures? Not at all implying that Artemis are / were not safe, more asking the academic question about possible implications, not just for AR but for all the programs?

 

edit maybe answered above ie: no workplace safety agency as such?

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Somewhere a Dad is sitting there crying. His kid will never walk through the door again. "Hey Dad , I'm home."

Ugh Bob you're killing me, my heart goes out to you and all of the dads who are mourning today.

 

Terrible day, I'm gutted.

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IMHO, these boats are like X planes, and their crews more test pilots than sailors. There are huge risks at the cutting edge of design, and a very few with the right stuff have always been willing to test the boundaries. The difference between a sh$t eating grin and catastrophe is a razors edge. No one could look at these machines and consider them to be ultimately "safe", yet no one has walked away from the challenge. This is a very sad day for the Simpson family, Artemis, and sailing...but when you're pushing the limits there will be days like this. R.I.P. Andrew, you left a mark. Not many can say that. Godspeed.

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What a horrible tragedy.

 

It does seem to me that people are rushing to judgement, though.

 

If the wired report is accurate about it being a catastrophic structural failure of one of the beams and Simpson was trapped underneath the boat, that is something that could happen on any bleeding edge carbon fiber boat.

 

There will be time to sort all that out later, though. For now the focus has to be on the life that was lost.

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Firstly Condolences, Time and Fond Memories should be your friend right now.

 

Someone asked about a coast guard investigation, I'm guessing if this was AUS and these guys are professional ie: paid, there might be some sort of workcover investigation, similar to a death on a building site? Do they do that in the US? Do the authorities have the power to shut down perceived dangerous work places, or modify safety procedures? Not at all implying that Artemis are / were not safe, more asking the academic question about possible implications, not just for AR but for all the programs?

 

edit maybe answered above ie: no workplace safety agency as such?

 

 

That is exactly what OSHA is all about. These guys were employed and working in the state of CA .

 

http://www.osha.gov/

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What a horrible tragedy.

 

It does seem to me that people are rushing to judgement, though.

 

If the wired report is accurate about it being a catastrophic structural failure of one of the beams and Simpson was trapped underneath the boat, that is something that could happen on any bleeding edge carbon fiber boat.

 

There will be time to sort all that out later, though. For now the focus has to be on the life that was lost.

 

yes, by their very nature

 

being on board high speed racing prototypes is not especially safe

 

there is just so much that can go wrong and never enough understanding of the forces and risks

 

very sad day indeed

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Sailing boats day-to-day in enclosed waters should never be so dangerous that it is considered normal attrition to lose $10m boats and kill and maim crew members.

 

When space travel is cheaper and safer than AC sailing you have to ask some questions.

Spare us the drama - space travel, cheaper and safer, really ?

 

Even you can do better than that.

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So will the Coast Guard investigate because of the tragic fatality? What's the process in SF?

 

I would think the Coast Guard would have a look at it but I am not sure of what policies or procedures they could enforce based on their investigation.

 

The one group that could possibly cause a serious problem ,as in complete cancellation of the event , would be OSHA. You do not mess with Occupational Safety and Health Administration in CA.

 

 

You do realize, doncha, that OSHA has zero control over a sporting event?....

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_Safety_and_Health_Administration

 

This really is more than a sporting event it is a paid professional endeavor.

 

I would think that two destroyed boats , one tragic death and a serious injury in less than 50 trips on the bay might cause some people to start thinking of this as a "hazardous industry".

 

Enforcement

OSHA is responsible for enforcing its standards on regulated entities. The agency sends Compliance Safety and Health Officers to work sites, where they carry out inspections and assess fines for regulatory violations. Inspections are planned for work sites in particularly hazardous industries. These areas are officially defined by OSHA in the National Electrical Code (NEC) as HAZLOC that is, hazardous locations. Inspections can also result in response to workplace incidents, worker complaints or referrals by other individuals.

OSHA covers approximately 7 million workplaces.[5] According to a report by AFL–CIO, it would take OSHA 129 years to inspect all workplaces under its jurisdiction.[6]

I am not saying this is going to happen but it is a distinct possibility.

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You may be correct. But we're in Kali, about the only state where you f'ng can sue yourself----and win. If'n I was a pro sailor I'd be more concerned about the douche-kayaks in Suckramento may come up with than I would about the Feds.....

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I have to confess a bit of this “let's find something or someone to blame for this tragedy” that some display really bothers me.

 

High level competition in which fast and highly loaded machines are used is intrinsically dangerous. It is a measured risk but time after time sailors (but not only, also designers and in general aficionados) push to sail faster and reach further.

 

I doubt anyone is more aware of that than the sailors themselves and let's face it is dangerous and the only reason there are; no more casualties is that most sailors are well aware of the dangers and behave in a cautious enough manner.

 

Just think of an accidental gybe or even how many times in a big boat someone less careful than he should stands under a boom ignoring that a halyard or halyard lock breaking can kill him.

 

But sometimes even being careful is not enough and a sum of circumstances turn a “phew... that was close” that we forget two days after into a tragedy. That was for instance what happened (added to other circumstances but, again, more than one) when Martin Wizner got killed in 99 in an AC boat, which many of the ones looking for someone to blame might take as a reference of a much safer yacht.

 

Some other times boats capsize, lose a keel, a mast (not such a rare thing!) or sink, nothing happens and we quickly forget about it ignoring how high the chances of that to happen were.

 

You can even kill yourself falling off a bike riding at 10 mph!

 

So as I said this simplistic search of someone to blame really bothers me (like that stupid comment above properly answered already by a few with some more common sense than the author).

 

America's Cup sailors are well aware of the risks which exist (and are not small) and they behave professionally and do what they can within reason to protect themselves. And sometimes, in some rare occasions, like today, even the best ones can get caught in a tragic situation.

 

And trust me, if anyone has any doubt, neither designers, boat builders, team managers, etc, you name it, involved in a project like this even considers to put the safety of any of the members of the teams behind anything else, or simply ignore it.

 

Sure, sometimes mistakes happen and even without mistakes just an unexpected gust can turn a not very easy situation into a critical one but as harsh as it may sound it is a part of this “game” and I doubt there is anyone seriously involved in it not aware of it.

 

So yes, we will all learn to sail and race safer (as it has been happening for many years) but the limits will always be pushed and that is the only reason for progress. It is the very same nature of high level competition and the persons involved in it. There is no room for reckless people.

 

Having said that I think there is a need to put some perspective of what really is important here today and it is the fact that even if it was doing what he loved to do an exceptional sailor died today because of a sum of circumstances and a lot of friends (and he had many around) and family will miss him.

 

And everyone else even related to him just by being a fellow sailor with think about him more than twice and feel sad about it.

 

Also we will all learn and out of that hopefully analyze things with calm and help make sailing, even extreme fast competitive sailing, a bit safer than it was today, which won’t ever guarantee 100% safety but no one ignores that.

 

So… sorry for the long venting but as I said it bothers me to read these finger pointers while sitting in from their sofas simplifying things beyond what they can be simplified looking for something or someone to blame and detracting attention from what I am sure most of us here care about: To regret a sad tragedy that we all hope it had never happened, to send our condolences and wish the best to those who love him and after that try to understand how to reduce the risk of it happening again, but today, unfortunately, even the last one is secondary.

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....so we will all learn and out of that hopefully analyze things with calm and help make sailing, even extreme fast competitive sailing, a bit safer than it was today, which won’t ever guarantee 100% safety but no one ignores that.

 

My question was more about the impact of any investigation, should one occur, on the event. I don't think investigations are there to apportion blame, thats a very american attitude. Investigations should be about how to do it better, or as you say, just to confirm that it was an unlikely occurrence that no amount of planning could have avoided.

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Deepest condolences to "Bart's" family.

I think we all know there is a pretty big chance another AC72 will flip before AC has a winner in September.

It bothers me that a sailor can be under the boat/trampoline/whatever for 10 minutes and we have a follow boat.

I think it should be mandated that follow boats have rescue swimmers. At least one per follow boat. These guys would follow the presence of coast guard/navy rescue swimmers.

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Deepest condolences to "Bart's" family.

I think we all know there is a pretty big chance another AC72 will flip before AC has a winner in September.

It bothers me that a sailor can be under the boat/trampoline/whatever for 10 minutes and we have a follow boat.

I think it should be mandated that follow boats have rescue swimmers. At least one per follow boat. These guys would follow the presence of coast guard/navy rescue swimmers.

 

Probably a good idea. It's pretty clear he had something catastrophic happen to him. Who knows if a rescue swimmer could have saved him, but they should definitely be on hand.

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Firstly Condolences, Time and Fond Memories should be your friend right now.

 

Someone asked about a coast guard investigation, I'm guessing if this was AUS and these guys are professional ie: paid, there might be some sort of workcover investigation, similar to a death on a building site? Do they do that in the US? Do the authorities have the power to shut down perceived dangerous work places, or modify safety procedures? Not at all implying that Artemis are / were not safe, more asking the academic question about possible implications, not just for AR but for all the programs?

 

edit maybe answered above ie: no workplace safety agency as such?

 

 

Here in AUS the boats would have to be registered and this includes satisfying some safety requirements. But they would not be commercial vessels - they would be privately owned vessels used for private purposes (racing) even though the crew are being paid. So they would not be in survey and none of the extra safety requirements for commercial vessels would apply.

 

There would be WorkHealth safety requirements for employees, but in this case the crew were just sailing the boat, they weren't doing anything that would require special safety procedures. An example that would require special safety procedures would be something like sending a man aloft.

 

So I don't see that workplace safety laws are going to be particularly relevant here. Of course, things might be diferent in the US.

 

The local maritime authorities could decide that it's unsafe to have foiling 72 foot catamarans sailing at 40 knots close to shore and close to each other. They could also decide that the risk of capsize is excessive and this requires extra safety procedures for these boats. But I would think this is a public safety issue rather than something to do with workplace safety.

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Terrible terrible tragedy :(

 

And just when Artemis was looking sorted.

Pic of the royal blue hulls with the three crowns looks really nice.

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Deepest condolences to "Bart's" family.

I think we all know there is a pretty big chance another AC72 will flip before AC has a winner in September.

It bothers me that a sailor can be under the boat/trampoline/whatever for 10 minutes and we have a follow boat.

I think it should be mandated that follow boats have rescue swimmers. At least one per follow boat. These guys would follow the presence of coast guard/navy rescue swimmers.

ETNZ Chase1 has two fully-kitted-out rescue divers aboard every time either of their AC72s is out, and we've all seen how close Chase1 sticks to the AC72. Being trapped for 10 minutes sounds like a long time, with tenders seemingly close by. There's more to come out yet on this tragedy....

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Condolences to Andrew's family, friends, and team. A time to mourn. He lived in a way that I admire greatly.

well said. RIP Mr Simpson

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Very sad and I know that all sailors across the globe are heartbroken.. fair winds Andrew!

Just when the next boat (btw the three crownes are Sweden's coat of arms) was to be revieled this tragedy strike, going from positive to negative in matter of minutes - I truly hope that the Artemis team has the inner strength to keep going so its not in vain.

My sincere condolences to Andrews family and friends.

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One of the best things about sailing is that those who participate are part of a family. That's why we can feel instantly at home amongst sailors wherever we are. Like all families there are leaders and followers, stars and also-rans, comforters and accusers, and, yes, a few arseholes.

 

Today we have lost a member of our family who was doing what he loved. We must remeber him, mourn him, celebrate his life, and offer our love and support to those closest to him.

 

There will be a time for a detailed technical inquest about why the incident that took Bart's life happened, and, hopefully it will lead to improvements in safety and a moderation of risk. But without risk there is little achievement. Today's risk averse society leaves little opportunity for us to enjoy the life affirmng experience of safely overcoming the elemental forces that exist everywhere in nature. I hope that the outcomes of this terrible event will not include a further tightenin of the dull, grey, bureaucratic grip that suffocates much of our lives and the sport we love.

 

Vale Bart. Fair winds, smooth seas, and a quiet harbour at journeys end.

 

VERY well said. Kudos!!!

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One of the best things about sailing is that those who participate are part of a family. That's why we can feel instantly at home amongst sailors wherever we are. Like all families there are leaders and followers, stars and also-rans, comforters and accusers, and, yes, a few arseholes.

 

Today we have lost a member of our family who was doing what he loved. We must remeber him, mourn him, celebrate his life, and offer our love and support to those closest to him.

 

There will be a time for a detailed technical inquest about why the incident that took Bart's life happened, and, hopefully it will lead to improvements in safety and a moderation of risk. But without risk there is little achievement. Today's risk averse society leaves little opportunity for us to enjoy the life affirmng experience of safely overcoming the elemental forces that exist everywhere in nature. I hope that the outcomes of this terrible event will not include a further tightenin of the dull, grey, bureaucratic grip that suffocates much of our lives and the sport we love.

 

Vale Bart. Fair winds, smooth seas, and a quiet harbour at journeys end.

 

VERY well said. Kudos!!!

+100

 

God forbid that any sad incident like this adds more fire to the "you can't do that, it's too dangerous" legislative lobby. Else the game we love in all is wonderful ways, whether dinghy sailing on the reservoir, racing on the Bay, flat-out across oceans, or at the wild screaming edge on an AC72 will be truly toast. Our kids will wonder what happened to their basic liberty...

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Deepest condolences to "Bart's" family.

I think we all know there is a pretty big chance another AC72 will flip before AC has a winner in September.

It bothers me that a sailor can be under the boat/trampoline/whatever for 10 minutes and we have a follow boat.

I think it should be mandated that follow boats have rescue swimmers. At least one per follow boat. These guys would follow the presence of coast guard/navy rescue swimmers.

ETNZ Chase1 has two fully-kitted-out rescue divers aboard every time either of their AC72s is out, and we've all seen how close Chase1 sticks to the AC72. Being trapped for 10 minutes sounds like a long time, with tenders seemingly close by. There's more to come out yet on this tragedy....

Yeah I thought about this, but if you were unconscious and trapped, even an oxygen tank would not be much use unfortunately. It's hard to imagine just how fast you would need to be to free someone under one of these if they were no conscious.. :( Very sad day

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They are reporting on the FP that they have corroborated the Wired report that the front beam cracked first, causing the crash. This is, IMO, good news for the sport and the crews for all teams, as it speaks of a catostrophic collapse that should be totally preventable, and a crash that would be of a very different dynamic than that of PPing or other capsize.

 

Damn, though, as someone else said, why couldn't they have gotten out of that red boat and into the blue boat (assuming they have fixed what has been a chronic problem) before Bart got hurt?

 

Very sad.

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Local news stations are reporting with video that

Artemis was towed to TI and recovered for investigation.

Like LSC, this falls under the jurisdiction of the SFPD. The idea that the SFPD would have a frigging clue at all is laughable.

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Condolences are all we can offer Andrew family, who now only have memories.

 

I said in a thread about Low Speed Chase that the best thing that can be taken away from an incident ,is what can be learnt to prevent deaths in the future. The rescue swimmer idea is something that I hope all the teams will action if that haven't all ready.

 

Fireball the rules in Australia changed under the new WHS laws, replacing OHS last year. Any organisation which has paid employees comes under the act, and any volunteer organisation which is big enough to be considered an "conducting a busines or undertaking" also comes under it (usually becaus ethey have some paid employees).

 

As a result in Scouts we now have a WHS manual which is almost 5 centimeters thick to cover all our activities (up to and including fire twirling for the Rovers) and we had to become a federally Recognised Training Organisation with vocational educational training (ie like a TAFE). All our Venturers, Rovers and Leader now have to under go VET training in the actvities, including sailing, as part of our WHS, under the Outdoor Recreation Certificate 2, 3 and 4. Interestingly that now actually makes me more legally qualified to instruct sailing than when I had just the Yachting Australia certification which is not VET recognised.

 

If Scouts are under WHS you can bet your bottom dollar that professional sailing teams would be; they are being paid.

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Local news stations are reporting with video that

Artemis was towed to TI and recovered for investigation.

Like LSC, this falls under the jurisdiction of the SFPD. The idea that the SFPD would have a frigging clue at all is laughable.

I'd like to think this is a formality more than anything else due to the circumstances.

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So will the Coast Guard investigate because of the tragic fatality? What's the process in SF?

 

I would think the Coast Guard would have a look at it but I am not sure of what policies or procedures they could enforce based on their investigation.

 

The one group that could possibly cause a serious problem ,as in complete cancellation of the event , would be OSHA. You do not mess with Occupational Safety and Health Administration in CA.

 

 

You do realize, doncha, that OSHA has zero control over a sporting event?....

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_Safety_and_Health_Administration

 

Fine .. if Artemis was actually participating in a sporting event .. The boat involved was a test platform and was never intended to be raced .

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This is not the first death on an AC Class boat. One of the sailors in the Spanish team died when he was hit in the face by a block in the early days of the IACC class. I also heard rumours of a person dying on a 12m or a J when he got stuck under a sail. Are there any AC historians out there who can shed some light and facts on what has happened in this respect in the past?

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RIP Bart.

 

I hope this gives the Artemis guys more reasons to fight and prove themselves.

 

Sailings a dangerous sport, some classes more than others.

 

They don't pull events like this because of the death of a competitor, they only continue on because that's the reason he was there doing what he did best. I am confident he would have said to march on!

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Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there. I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry;
I am not there. I did not die.

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Condolences are all we can offer Andrew family, who now only have memories.

 

I said in a thread about Low Speed Chase that the best thing that can be taken away from an incident ,is what can be learnt to prevent deaths in the future. The rescue swimmer idea is something that I hope all the teams will action if that haven't all ready.

 

Fireball the rules in Australia changed under the new WHS laws, replacing OHS last year. Any organisation which has paid employees comes under the act, and any volunteer organisation which is big enough to be considered an "conducting a busines or undertaking" also comes under it (usually becaus ethey have some paid employees).

 

As a result in Scouts we now have a WHS manual which is almost 5 centimeters thick to cover all our activities (up to and including fire twirling for the Rovers) and we had to become a federally Recognised Training Organisation with vocational educational training (ie like a TAFE). All our Venturers, Rovers and Leader now have to under go VET training in the actvities, including sailing, as part of our WHS, under the Outdoor Recreation Certificate 2, 3 and 4. Interestingly that now actually makes me more legally qualified to instruct sailing than when I had just the Yachting Australia certification which is not VET recognised.

 

If Scouts are under WHS you can bet your bottom dollar that professional sailing teams would be; they are being paid.

 

 

Yes - in AUS professional sailboat racing teams would have WHS requirements - I said that in my post as well. But exactly what those requirements would be is the question.

 

The Scouts is a different organisation altogether: large numbers of people, lot's of different activities, relatively unskilled participants. You can see why they'd have a huge manual to cover all this.

 

I'm familiar with the WHS requirements for commercial vessels in AUS and they are complicated as well. But the requirements for sailboat racing teams like the AC should be much simpler because they are not commercial vessels and they don't operate offshore. They're just day sailers and they don't even have an engine onboard.

 

One area that could be a problem for these AC teams is the sea worthiness of the boats, which could also be a problem for registering their boats. There would probably be other requirements about training and safety procedures that they would need to comply with and probably already do to some extent.

 

So I don't see a problem with these AC teams complying with any training requirements and implementing any necessary safety procedures. The main issue seems to be whether the boats are unsafe in which case they shouldn't be registered in the first place.

 

The latest news suggests that the boat just split apart due to structural failure, in which case this incident is about construction standards.

 

I should add that IMHO these boats really are unsafe. The risk of capsizing is significant and the consequences for the crew are severe. That doesn't appear to have been the problem in this incident, but it could be in the future. They should never have been allowed to be registered in their current configuration.

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Preliminary reports indicate Artemis’s boat didn’t capsize because the sailors were pushing too hard or made a mistake, as was the case with Team Oracle. The problem was with the boat itself, either faulty engineering or faulty construction. The boat simply broke apart under sail, folded, then flipped. The Artemis boat has had a history of cracking and problems with the carbon fiber used in the twin “beams”

From Wired Mag

 

I suspect there are some individuals at King Marine and Juan Yacht Design in Valencia who are feeling pretty sick right now... rightly or wrongly.

 

Condolences to Bart's family and friends plus the team as a whole.

 

Fair winds and a following sea. RIP Bart.

 

Mex

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One of the best things about sailing is that those who participate are part of a family. That's why we can feel instantly at home amongst sailors wherever we are. Like all families there are leaders and followers, stars and also-rans, comforters and accusers, and, yes, a few arseholes.

 

Today we have lost a member of our family who was doing what he loved. We must remeber him, mourn him, celebrate his life, and offer our love and support to those closest to him.

 

There will be a time for a detailed technical inquest about why the incident that took Bart's life happened, and, hopefully it will lead to improvements in safety and a moderation of risk. But without risk there is little achievement. Today's risk averse society leaves little opportunity for us to enjoy the life affirmng experience of safely overcoming the elemental forces that exist everywhere in nature. I hope that the outcomes of this terrible event will not include a further tightenin of the dull, grey, bureaucratic grip that suffocates much of our lives and the sport we love.

 

Vale Bart. Fair winds, smooth seas, and a quiet harbour at journeys end.

 

Well said - spoton!

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What a horrible tragedy.

 

It does seem to me that people are rushing to judgement, though.

 

If the wired report is accurate about it being a catastrophic structural failure of one of the beams and Simpson was trapped underneath the boat, that is something that could happen on any bleeding edge carbon fiber boat.

 

There will be time to sort all that out later, though. For now the focus has to be on the life that was lost.

 

yes, by their very nature

 

being on board high speed racing prototypes is not especially safe

 

there is just so much that can go wrong and never enough understanding of the forces and risks

 

very sad day indeed

 

Agreed.

 

Yachting/Sailing has its risks. Look at the tragic 1998 Sydney Hobart race when six lives were lost. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sydney_to_Hobart_Yacht_Race

 

There were lots of investigations into that event - with many improvements resulting.

 

Ironically that year the race was won by Larry Ellison on Sayonara. At the end of the race Larry was reported to say that it was a life changing experience and he'd never do it again if he lived to 1000. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/ellison-says-never-again/story-e6freon6-1111118408085

 

Vale Bart.

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Tragic and a very sad day for sailing, sincerest condolences to Andrews family, friends and team mates.

Clean, you had a chance to show some class and blew it, sometimes less is more.

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Indio, best comment so far re chase boats and rescue divers. IF 10 mins is actually correct! that should not be possible! Even if a crew member is unconcious a rescue diver with air should be able to check under everything within a few mins of the incident and provide a much better chance of survival.

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Indio, best comment so far re chase boats and rescue divers. IF 10 mins is actually correct! that should not be possible! Even if a crew member is unconcious a rescue diver with air should be able to check under everything within a few mins of the incident and provide a much better chance of survival.

I seem to remember that one of the conclusions reached after the Oracle PP was that rescue divers would always be on the support boats? Anyway, Andrew's situation may have been complcated by the fact that the boat appears to have folded over itself, so it might be (speculating here) he was trapped between the netting rather than just under the boat...

 

In any case, heartfelt condolences to his family, the Artemis team and the AC community in general after this horrible horrible day...

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RIP Andrew. Condolences to family, friends and teamates. Still a lot of questions that need answering but the boat did not capsize, it appears it suffered a structural failure.

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FYI

Nine News just interviewed NO's dad who said

1 NO and Goobs are OK

2 NO is shattered

3 NO was driving.

Poor buggers. It will take a fair bit of courage to get back on the AC72 horse again.

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FYI

Nine News just interviewed NO's dad who said

1 NO and Goobs are OK

2 NO is shattered

3 NO was driving.

Poor buggers. It will take a fair bit of courage to get back on the AC72 horse again.

I have absolutely no doubt that those boys have bagfuls of courage. NO has previously and publicly demonstrated this.

They will mourn a good mate, as will we all, but they will use this catastrophe to make them stronger.

 

Why do we see these boats as so exciting?

Because they are leading edge and inherently dangerous.

The Wangi boys are ideally suited to tame this beast.

Bring it on!

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You can see a diver in KGO TV footage.

 

Right at the start they have taken a few guys off, rest standing on bowsprit.

RIB drifts closer & you see the diver hop out onto the Y beam.

I thought he had hopped out of the RIB onto the Y & sat there for no obvious reason but watching again, there is no sign of him coming out of the boat -> was already down there before the footage starts & I think he got out to avoid getting squished by the RIB.

There is a while where he is sitting on the beam while the RIB repositions but he goes under again when the RIB comes in & takes everyone else off from a safer angle.

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Aaaaaha!

 

<<US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
“There are many people interested in learning how to sail who have yet to take the first step,” said Jack Gierhart, Executive Director of US Sailing. “Perhaps they don’t know where to begin or believe it is too difficult or expensive – all not true. This new website is the perfect place to welcome newcomers, while serving as a useful resource as they get started. We hope sailors will visit the website and share it with their family members and friends who want to learn.”
(more)>>

Yeah! :rolleyes: Saw this yesterday. Recruiting/training helmsmen and crew for AC37 and AC38.

 

 

I have to confess a bit of this “let's find something or someone to blame for this tragedy” that some display really bothers me.

 

High level competition in which fast and highly loaded machines are used is intrinsically dangerous. It is a measured risk but time after time sailors (but not only, also designers and in general aficionados) push to sail faster and reach further.

 

I doubt anyone is more aware of that than the sailors themselves and let's face it is dangerous and the only reason there are; no more casualties is that most sailors are well aware of the dangers and behave in a cautious enough manner.

 

Just think of an accidental gybe or even how many times in a big boat someone less careful than he should stands under a boom ignoring that a halyard or halyard lock breaking can kill him.

 

But sometimes even being careful is not enough and a sum of circumstances turn a “phew... that was close” that we forget two days after into a tragedy. That was for instance what happened (added to other circumstances but, again, more than one) when Martin Wizner got killed in 99 in an AC boat, which many of the ones looking for someone to blame might take as a reference of a much safer yacht.

 

Some other times boats capsize, lose a keel, a mast (not such a rare thing!) or sink, nothing happens and we quickly forget about it ignoring how high the chances of that to happen were.

 

You can even kill yourself falling off a bike riding at 10 mph!

 

So as I said this simplistic search of someone to blame really bothers me (like that stupid comment above properly answered already by a few with some more common sense than the author).

 

America's Cup sailors are well aware of the risks which exist (and are not small) and they behave professionally and do what they can within reason to protect themselves. And sometimes, in some rare occasions, like today, even the best ones can get caught in a tragic situation.

 

And trust me, if anyone has any doubt, neither designers, boat builders, team managers, etc, you name it, involved in a project like this even considers to put the safety of any of the members of the teams behind anything else, or simply ignore it.

 

Sure, sometimes mistakes happen and even without mistakes just an unexpected gust can turn a not very easy situation into a critical one but as harsh as it may sound it is a part of this “game” and I doubt there is anyone seriously involved in it not aware of it.

 

So yes, we will all learn to sail and race safer (as it has been happening for many years) but the limits will always be pushed and that is the only reason for progress. It is the very same nature of high level competition and the persons involved in it. There is no room for reckless people.

 

Having said that I think there is a need to put some perspective of what really is important here today and it is the fact that even if it was doing what he loved to do an exceptional sailor died today because of a sum of circumstances and a lot of friends (and he had many around) and family will miss him.

 

And everyone else even related to him just by being a fellow sailor with think about him more than twice and feel sad about it.

 

Also we will all learn and out of that hopefully analyze things with calm and help make sailing, even extreme fast competitive sailing, a bit safer than it was today, which won’t ever guarantee 100% safety but no one ignores that.

 

So… sorry for the long venting but as I said it bothers me to read these finger pointers while sitting in from their sofas simplifying things beyond what they can be simplified looking for something or someone to blame and detracting attention from what I am sure most of us here care about: To regret a sad tragedy that we all hope it had never happened, to send our condolences and wish the best to those who love him and after that try to understand how to reduce the risk of it happening again, but today, unfortunately, even the last one is secondary.

+1

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Aaaaaha!

 

<<US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
“There are many people interested in learning how to sail who have yet to take the first step,” said Jack Gierhart, Executive Director of US Sailing. “Perhaps they don’t know where to begin or believe it is too difficult or expensive – all not true. This new website is the perfect place to welcome newcomers, while serving as a useful resource as they get started. We hope sailors will visit the website and share it with their family members and friends who want to learn.”
(more)>>

Yeah! :rolleyes: Saw this yesterday. Recruiting/training helmsmen and crew for AC37 and AC38.

 

 

>I have to confess a bit of this “let's find something or someone to blame for this tragedy” that some display really bothers me.

 

High level competition in which fast and highly loaded machines are used is intrinsically dangerous. It is a measured risk but time after time sailors (but not only, also designers and in general aficionados) push to sail faster and reach further.

 

I doubt anyone is more aware of that than the sailors themselves and let's face it is dangerous and the only reason there are; no more casualties is that most sailors are well aware of the dangers and behave in a cautious enough manner.

 

Just think of an accidental gybe or even how many times in a big boat someone less careful than he should stands under a boom ignoring that a halyard or halyard lock breaking can kill him.

 

But sometimes even being careful is not enough and a sum of circumstances turn a “phew... that was close” that we forget two days after into a tragedy. That was for instance what happened (added to other circumstances but, again, more than one) when Martin Wizner got killed in 99 in an AC boat, which many of the ones looking for someone to blame might take as a reference of a much safer yacht.

 

Some other times boats capsize, lose a keel, a mast (not such a rare thing!) or sink, nothing happens and we quickly forget about it ignoring how high the chances of that to happen were.

 

You can even kill yourself falling off a bike riding at 10 mph!

 

So as I said this simplistic search of someone to blame really bothers me (like that stupid comment above properly answered already by a few with some more common sense than the author).

 

America's Cup sailors are well aware of the risks which exist (and are not small) and they behave professionally and do what they can within reason to protect themselves. And sometimes, in some rare occasions, like today, even the best ones can get caught in a tragic situation.

 

And trust me, if anyone has any doubt, neither designers, boat builders, team managers, etc, you name it, involved in a project like this even considers to put the safety of any of the members of the teams behind anything else, or simply ignore it.

 

Sure, sometimes mistakes happen and even without mistakes just an unexpected gust can turn a not very easy situation into a critical one but as harsh as it may sound it is a part of this “game” and I doubt there is anyone seriously involved in it not aware of it.

 

So yes, we will all learn to sail and race safer (as it has been happening for many years) but the limits will always be pushed and that is the only reason for progress. It is the very same nature of high level competition and the persons involved in it. There is no room for reckless people.

 

Having said that I think there is a need to put some perspective of what really is important here today and it is the fact that even if it was doing what he loved to do an exceptional sailor died today because of a sum of circumstances and a lot of friends (and he had many around) and family will miss him.

 

And everyone else even related to him just by being a fellow sailor with think about him more than twice and feel sad about it.

 

Also we will all learn and out of that hopefully analyze things with calm and help make sailing, even extreme fast competitive sailing, a bit safer than it was today, which won’t ever guarantee 100% safety but no one ignores that.

 

So… sorry for the long venting but as I said it bothers me to read these finger pointers while sitting in from their sofas simplifying things beyond what they can be simplified looking for something or someone to blame and detracting attention from what I am sure most of us here care about: To regret a sad tragedy that we all hope it had never happened, to send our condolences and wish the best to those who love him and after that try to understand how to reduce the risk of it happening again, but today, unfortunately, even the last one is secondary.

+1

 

The US Sailing post above my +1 reply nothing to do with me. No idea what I did to the keyboard to make that unrelated piece turn up.

 

Been feeling v 'close' to SF since hearing the news on radio in NZ. Lost my youngest bro on the land just a few miles from this accident 20 years ago. He too was living life on the edge and to the full. Recall only too well the drama of the family arriving in SF airport, meeting his US fiancee and in due course all making our way to where it all happened. My prayers and heart are surely with Andrew's family and kinsfolk, I know they will be supported and buoyed by team and local folk as we were. Like my bro, Andrew's epitaph will be the life he actually lived.

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I will always remember the interview Bart and Ian gave immediately after the 2012 medal race. Bart and Ian were so sporting and so dignified under the hardest circumstances, true sporting gentlemen. A great bloke. RIP to Bart and deepest condolences to the family.