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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
sarah0809

Artemis?

12,630 posts in this topic

LOVE IT...

 

 

Alameda leading race to host America's Cup teams

Carolyn Jones

 

San Francisco Chronicle June 5, 2012 04:00 AM Tuesday, June 5, 2012

 

ba-alameda03_ph1_SFC0111410731_part6.jpgarticlebox_img_bg.gifLance Iversen / The Chronicle

 

Kame Richards (left) of the Alameda America's Cup committee visits with Guillaume Canivet of Canivet Construction inside the former naval plane hangar that will be home to Artemis Racing.

 

Waterfront cities around the East Bay are busy trying to lure America's Cup teams, but so far Alameda has the most wind in its sails.The island city landed one of the biggest America's Cup teams, Artemis Racing from the Royal Swedish Yacht Club, and is mobilizing to attract more.

 

"If you ask how many America's Cup teams do we want, the answer is, we want them all," said Kame Richards, owner of Pineapple Sails in Alameda. "San Francisco is a perfectly wonderful city, but ... Alameda is a perfect fit for this."

 

In late May, Artemis signed a one-year, $20,000-per-month lease, effective immediately, for a former airplane hangar at the old Naval Air Station. The hangar is spacious enough to house the monstrous 72-foot catamarans used in the race and is adjacent to Seaplane Lagoon, an easy 2.7-mile sail from San Francisco's Ferry Building.

 

Along with the boats, Artemis is bringing 70 families who will decamp to Alameda as well as fans and tourists for America's Cup World Series events leading up to the main race in September 2013.

 

No one's sure what the exact windfall will be for Alameda, but regionally the America's Cup is expected to bring in more than $1 billion, according to the Bay Area Council and America's Cup organizers.

 

That figure doesn't include the international exposure, which officials throughout the Bay Area hope will entice millions of future tourists.

 

Alameda is not done with its America's Cup. The city has room at the defunct Navy base for at least three other teams, and has one of the state's largest sailing communities lobbying in its favor.

 

The city has eight marinas and 3,400 sailboat slips, the second-largest conglomeration of sailboats in the state behind Marina Del Rey (Los Angeles County). It's also home to countless boatyards, maritime suppliers, sailmakers, engine shops, two ferry terminals and other nautical-related businesses.

 

Some of the city's most avid sailors and business owners sit on the city's America's Cup committee.

 

"We're even getting the landlubbers involved," said Christopher Seiwald, committee chair.

 

But Alameda has some competition. Richmond and Oakland are also vying for America's Cup teams and related businesses.

 

 

Deepwater access

Like Alameda, both cities have large vacant warehouses - at their respective commercial ports - and easy waterfront access. They also both have active sailing communities.

 

"We have a lot of space and good deepwater access to the bay," said Richmond City Councilman Tom Butt, adding that rents in Richmond are likely to be cheaper than those in Alameda or San Francisco.

 

America's Cup facilities would be at the Port of Richmond's Terminal One, which is currently vacant and adjacent to the Richmond Yacht Club, heart of the city's sailing community.

 

Another bonus is its proximity to affordable family housing at the nearby Marina Bay development, said Mark Howe, chair of the city's America's Cup committee.

 

"We're not San Francisco, but we have a great location and a tremendous sailing community," he said.

 

In Oakland, officials are trying to lure a team to a warehouse near Jack London Square, which is on the waterfront and likely has better freeway, airport and public transit access than any other potential America's Cup site in the Bay Area.

 

"San Francisco can't handle it all. It's going to take the entire region to host an event of this magnitude, and we are excited to be a part of it," said Samee Roberts, Oakland's marketing director.

 

In addition, Oakland is considering waterfront festivals along the estuary and Lake Merritt, viewing parties and promotion of its restaurant, hotel and cultural scene, which is among the most popular in the Bay Area.

 

 

Lively waterfront

Oakland also has a lively waterfront entertainment district at Jack London Square, with a slew of restaurants, parks, theaters and hotels as well as marinas.

 

But Alameda, with its vast, mostly vacant former base property and plethora of harbors, might be tough to beat.

 

"The America's Cup is one of the biggest sporting events in the world, and we are at ground zero," said Alameda Mayor Marie Gilmore. "Or at least 2.7 miles from it."

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I think they may have been hoping for some sort of rigging failure as that would have most likely been a little easier to figure out. Sounds like it is still not solved at this time.

 

 

An educated (??) guess is this was a construction QA/QC mistake rather than a design issue, because:

 

- with composites, that is the case 95% of the time

 

- chief structural designer Andrea Avaldi is nearly as good as his ETNZ counterpart Giovanni Belgrano

 

- openly declaring that outside consultants have been called in is only admissible if the problem's deemed to be external to the design team

 

So, I believe the reason for the failure has already been determined, and it's not something that should overly concern the competition. Rather, I'm surprised at the huge setback in terms of delay: it's like the defect affects the entire spar and they are constrained by the 30% weight replacement rule and cannot simply include new parts.

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The Fish's take now, for S-W

 

Now we can take some satisfaction from the data we have collected in the 12 days of sailing we have had, said Cayard.

 

The break has been across the main spar, around which the wing elements pivot

.....

No one has ever built one of these wings before, or exploited the possibilities their complexity affords. The C-class guys are using twist, and there is no doubt that twist is a speed-contributing factor of the wing rig. We will be among those who will have twist in our equation, maybe others won’t.

 

is PC talking about lead element twist??

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What actually happened was that the wing snapped in two and the whole structure fell on to the boat – 'nothing got wet,

 

so it must have broken about the middle, which would be the classic break of an over-loaded, weak spar....if it's not design then poor assembly?

 

just above the green arrows there looks to be a join in the main spar, about the right place for a 2 part split where nothing gets wet

wrong bolts? loose nuts? forgot to beef up the carbon around the bolt heads and they simply worked their way through the laminate???

 

post-23477-069842800 1338934900_thumb.jpg

 

post-23477-006422400 1338935146_thumb.jpg

 

The set-back will probably be of four months duration

 

ouch!, from 1 july launch to 1 november....no summer sailing

'We had planned to launch our boat – the platform is ready here in Valencia – on July 1st, and we will be beaten to that punch

 

so their ac72 is finished and sitting in a shed

how frustrating, all the 72s will be launched and sailing, showing their design tricks

and artemis can't capitalize on being the last in the water

as their boat was first finished and gathering dust

 

No one has ever built one of these wings before, or exploited the possibilities their complexity affords.

 

oracle built a bigger wing for DZ and the C class guys have complex smaller wings

so i guess he means the most complex big wing...

 

Maybe we would have designed the wing differently if we had intended to race with it

 

what does this mean, no twist?

didn't they always intend to race with it?

otherwise why do they HAVE TO rebuild it

the fact it failed in only medium winds and light sea state could mean they don't learn much from it's failure at all...

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X, my read on that is a 'Yes' - it has lead element twist. Can't see why else he would bring up the complexity.

 

I wonder how the rumor started that it broke into 4 pieces. Intentional, as a jab at Artemis? Or just rumor run amok? Curious. Fisher:

--

 

The amazing factor of America’s Cup stories is how exaggeration immerses them. The breaking of the AC-72 wing of Artemis that was being trialled on an ORMA 60 hull platform for example was retold to a degree that defied belief. No sooner had the wing folded than it was in four pieces and with that the rumour mill built so that everything that Artemis Racing had achieved was in the trash-can.

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X, my read on that is a 'Yes' - it has lead element twist. Can't see why else he would bring up the complexity.

 

I wonder how the rumor started that it broke into 4 pieces. Intentional, as a jab at Artemis? Or just rumor run amok? Curious.

 

Until we see photos the rumor could actually be it only broke in one spot.

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Here's Artemis's new home in Alameda. They are building what appears to be a sail loft floor in these pictures. approx 100'X250'

post-34764-094002300 1338935482_thumb.jpg

post-34764-039638300 1338935545_thumb.jpg

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J-bird, our mysterious euro based, native english speaking, pro-sailor, said it broke in 4

 

like had seen it or had received a first hand account before the censors kicked in

 

"Yes, It buckled while sailing, not a lot of breeze. Landed on the beam in 3-4 pieces all of which were recovered.

I doubt it will be repaired. "

 

said he doubted it would be repaired and later that it wasn't a rigging failure...

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'significant', 'severely damaged' - thank God 'No one was injured.'

 

That wing is frikkin' huge.. wonder if it actually came down??

 

 

 

Yes, It buckled while sailing, not a lot of breeze. Landed on the beam in 3-4 pieces all of which were recovered.

I doubt it will be repaired.

 

here

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So is this the result of another Future Fibre rigging failure?

 

No

 

here

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Wouldn't surprise me if a flap or two came unhinged and got counted as pieces by someone's definition.

 

I complimented Fisher's perspective, it deserves it. But hats off to Pierre for getting the goods for us, and to PC for agreeing and for being so forthright. He doesn't mince words there in his answers - good interview by both.

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Here's Artemis's new home in Alameda. They are building what appears to be a sail loft floor in these pictures. approx 100'X250'

 

I see they are using manufactured I-joists. Smart move, they are straight and will not warp like 2x lumber. They should have called me, seeing how I designed quite a few structures with those products. (well, back in the day)

 

edit: they should have pressure treated wood against that concrete floor, unless they placed a barrier underneath.

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just to show

 

how carbon blows

 

what the crew saw below

 

after hearing the god almighty crack above

 

a few days ago

 

on the auckland - noumea race

 

post-23477-094590500 1338942180_thumb.jpg

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(BF said) The amazing factor of America's Cup stories is how exaggeration immerses them. The breaking of the AC-72 wing of Artemis that was being trialled on an ORMA 60 hull platform for example was retold to a degree that defied belief. No sooner had the wing folded than it was in four pieces and with that the rumour mill built so that everything that Artemis Racing had achieved was in the trash-can.

 

A big hmmmmm to the claim that there has been "exaggeration" that "defie(s) belief".

 

Paul Cayard: We are right now deciding exactly what the methodology is going to be but are going to repair it as fast as we can. I’m pretty sure the AC72 will first sail with Wing 1 because it will take longer to build Wing 2. We hope to sail maybe around October with the AC72.

 

In other words, it appears it is expected to take several months to repair, not a lot less than the time to build wing 2 from scratch.

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Do the wings have to be built in two pieces? What do the rules say about this?

If it broke at the top/bottom joint (which I assume it did) why not build it in one piece?

Will be harder to transport but not impossible.

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^^^

 

AC72 Class Rule V1.1

 

10.3 Further to Protocol Article 29.6, the Wing Spar shall be capable of being disassembled into

two separate sections. The lower Wing Spar section shall be at least 18.000 m, and no

more than 19.900 m in length. For the purposes of this rule, fittings shall not be considered

part of the Wing Spar.

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on further reflection

 

if the main-spar failed at the join

 

the lower section of the wing should have remained standing

 

as the lower stays attach just below the join...

 

so it may have more likely failed

 

just below the lower stays, inadequate carbon strength in the spar just below the stay area

 

or a lower spar stay mount pulled free..., inadequate carbon strength or bonding at the mount...

 

post-23477-073888000 1338979220_thumb.jpg

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Paul Cayard: We are right now deciding exactly what the methodology is going to be but are going to repair it as fast as we can. I’m pretty sure the AC72 will first sail with Wing 1 because it will take longer to build Wing 2. We hope to sail maybe around October with the AC72.

 

In other words, it appears it is expected to take several months to repair, not a lot less than the time to build wing 2 from scratch.

October???

 

A mid-2011 schedule had their first wing sailing by September 2011. First sail was mid-March 2012. They managed twelve days sailing in two and a half months before their wing collapsed in moderate conditions.

 

In retrospect, the sailable scale model development strategy (AC45, SL33) doesn't sound too bad after all. Time will tell.

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Paul Cayard: We are right now deciding exactly what the methodology is going to be but are going to repair it as fast as we can. I’m pretty sure the AC72 will first sail with Wing 1 because it will take longer to build Wing 2. We hope to sail maybe around October with the AC72.

 

In other words, it appears it is expected to take several months to repair, not a lot less than the time to build wing 2 from scratch.

October???

 

A mid-2011 schedule had their first wing sailing by September 2011. First sail was mid-March 2012. They managed twelve days sailing in two and a half months before their wing collapsed in moderate conditions.

 

In retrospect, the sailable scale model development strategy (AC45, SL33) doesn't sound too bad after all. Time will tell.

You seem to mhave forgotten that they have also been sailing with other, small wings. And the one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down. Imagine if ETNZ, LR or OR drop their first wing after 12 days sailing. They will be a lot further back than Artemis, who I believe dodged a huge bullet. I find it pretty amazing that they dropped the wing and, as far as we know, didn't damage the boat. I find it hard to believe that is the norm, and if any of the others drop their rigs they are, imo, likely to damage their AC72's.

 

Overall, it obviously isn't good for the Artemis program, but it would have been a lot wrose if they had waited for their AC72 before trying their first wing.

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And the one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down. Imagine if ETNZ, LR or OR drop their first wing after 12 days sailing. They will be a lot further back than Artemis, who I believe dodged a huge bullet.

 

Circumstantial evidence (outside consultants brought in, very long repair time, PC not confirming Future Fibres will be doing their second wing) points to a serious, generalized construction mistake. Lesson not directly applicable to other teams.

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one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down.

 

 

 

Hi mum, I wrapped you car around a lamp post.

 

But it's all good.

 

I learned that, in future, I should not send text messages while I drive.

 

So it's all positive.

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In retrospect, the sailable scale model development strategy (AC45, SL33) doesn't sound too bad after all. Time will tell.

 

When historians write-up this AC, this will be one of the big issues.

 

Full-size versus scaled-down versions of the wing.

Which was the best strategy?

 

It does sound like this breakage has put Artemis on a back foot.

 

And, to me, it further reinforces "breakage" as an issue in AC35.

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And, to me, it further reinforces "breakage" as an issue in AC35.

 

You going Ben Ainslie on us now? :lol:

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And the one thing they now have going for them is lots of information on why it fell down. Imagine if ETNZ, LR or OR drop their first wing after 12 days sailing. They will be a lot further back than Artemis, who I believe dodged a huge bullet.

 

Circumstantial evidence (outside consultants brought in, very long repair time, PC not confirming Future Fibres will be doing their second wing) points to a serious, generalized construction mistake. Lesson not directly applicable to other teams.

+1, my take on it too; other 'evidence' are PC's mentions of complication and (vs) the weight limits; that it's a good thing they did not already start W2 (using presumably the same layup/framing/bake process/etc).

 

That the 'repair' is going to take so long suggests a complete rebuild; which would I would guess bring up the definition, the distinction between, repair versus new, with the measurers.

 

He also suggests they have been experimenting with different things; possibly accounting for the only 12 days sailed since the March 15 launch.

--

 

TK, the question about wing frailty did get asked by VS; PC had a solid response, worth a re-read, they've sailed in 25 knots and 1m seas, even.

 

--

(on a phone)

Is Fisher's piece a commentary on the VS interview, or did he also hear PC - perhaps during a conf call? Iirc there are some quotes in BF's at SW that are not in even the updated VS interview, which may have been an aside for VS and done in addition to my imagined conf call?

 

No biggy, just curious if it struck anyone else that way too.

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You seem to have forgotten that they have also been sailing with other, small wings.

Good point -- but only if their small wings tested new, critical subsystems that their big wings depend upon.

 

Can you share with us the valuable similarities between their small Tornado and big AC72 wings?

 

Differences in the respective control systems are obvious.

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Can you share with us the valuable similarities between their small Tornado and big AC72 wings?

Sorry, cannot share anything on this. I am fortunate enough to get "insider" info from a few people in a few teams and the guys are always very clear about what can and acnnot be shared. Surprisingly, I ahve been told numerous times that anything to do with design and testing mustn't be repeated! What i can say is that Santi and Adam have done a lot of hours on the T. I don't think it takes an special knowledge to believe that they wouldn't have done that just for fun. To have 2 of the key design team guys just playing with a wing for fun would seem to me to be a bit of a waste of time. I therefore think it is reasonable to assume that they have been doing a lot of testing and that there are valuable lessons that have been learnt.

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I expect that the exact nature of the failure may well be kept quiet too.

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I therefore think it is reasonable to assume that they have been doing a lot of testing and that there are valuable lessons that have been learnt.

I agree, hence my previous point about the relative cost/benefit of scale testing. One question remains: how small is too small?

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I expect that the exact nature of the failure may well be kept quiet too.

 

I certainly wouldn't expect them to publish specific details of whatever happened, at least before September 2013.

 

Hell, ETNZ has even hid details of their first AC45 capsize to this day, which would have revealed absolutely nothing relevant.

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I certainly wouldn't expect them to publish specific details of whatever happened, at least before September 2013.

 

Hell, ETNZ has even hid details of their first AC45 capsize to this day, which would have revealed absolutely nothing relevant.

 

 

You will never understand that capsize 'cause it was taniwha related.

Piss off the taniwha and .....

 

Watch out!

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I expect that the exact nature of the failure may well be kept quiet too.

 

I certainly wouldn't expect them to publish specific details of whatever happened, at least before September 2013.

 

Hell, ETNZ has even hid details of their first AC45 capsize to this day, which would have revealed absolutely nothing relevant.

 

5:28 PM Wed 20 Apr 2011

 

Emirates Team New Zealand today confirmed that their AC45 had capsized in Auckland while training today.

 

The one design wingsailed catamaran left the Viaduct Harbour just before 1000hrs this morning and returned soon after noon.

 

A Team confirmed the incident had taken place when approached by Sail-World, saying the time of the capsize was late this this morning (Wednesday) NZT.

 

The yacht toppled on to its side as it rounded a mark. No one was injured. The yacht was righted without incident and it sailed back to base, Sail-World was told.

 

Minor damage to the top of the wing will be repaired overnight and the yacht will be back on the water tomorrow.

 

Skipper Dean Barker said the capsize was all part of the learning process. 'Every time we take the yacht out we test to the limits in the conditions prevailing otherwise there’s no point to the testing process.'

 

No cameras were on hand to video the incident. A southwesterly wind (offshore) was blowing at the time gusting to 29 kts.

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Reliable source:

 

failure due to front element twist testing.

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Reliable source:

 

failure due to front element twist testing.

 

very interesting!

 

was wondering if perhaps the mast box section hadn't been engineered enough for twisting loads

 

not something carbon is renown for

 

more kevlar??? would make it heavier and cayard has already bitched about having to take weight off somewhere else if they are going to add any

 

or perhaps the twisting hydraulics? got a little apeshit?

 

internal limit switch fell off and, actuator went full stroke???

 

computer software glitched while activating twist with same result???

 

perhaps would help explain while no one was injured

 

reaching along in medium winds doing test after test

 

someone yells, "twist test", all eyes up, section starts twisting

 

keeps twisting

 

then the cracking carbon canon

 

splits in the middle of the box

 

everyone starts looking for an escape route forward or back

 

the lower sections falls away to leeward

 

upper section falls to windward

 

silence for a moment

 

then

 

fuck, FUCK, FUCK!

 

the tri coasts to a halt

 

the tender comes alongside to say

 

"ya wanna tow?"

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^ Nice imagination, really!

--

 

Gtran of a rare TT interview, AC is at the end.

 

http://translate.goo...ticle644773.ece

 

 

Ummm, what's this about Nice (FR) in November?

 

Quote:

The big news for all Swedish sailing lovers is that the "Swedish Artemis Challenge" will take part in the Louis Vuitton Cup, the most prestigious sailing competition in the world after troubled American Cup. The first regatta in Nice in November. Then it's a pro, not Torbjörn Törnqvist, who are behind the helm. But he appears perhaps up to the cockpit anyway.

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Could be a typo; but yes, could well instead have come from TT - good catch.

 

In a Jobson video interview that I posted somewhere, at the time I was reading something else while he droned on so didn't listen very closely, but at about 20 minutes in he made reference to 'hard work' going on to make a couple post-September ACWS events happen. Perhaps there's a tie-in?

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Could be a typo; but yes, could well instead have come from TT - good catch.

 

In a Jobson video interview that I posted somewhere, at the time I was reading something else while he droned on so didn't listen very closely, but at about 20 minutes in he made reference to 'hard work' going on to make a couple post-September ACWS events happen. Perhaps there's a tie-in?

 

Nice would be great. Not sure if it would be as good as Marseille, but certainly a fantastic venue. They need to do one in France. Whether it be down in the South (Marseilles or Nice), or north (Lorient or Brest). Not sure on the timing, though. Wouldn't it make more sense, logistics-wise, to do an event in Korea, Australia, and/or New Zealand following SFO, then do France just before Venice in the Spring?

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In one of Barot's recent tweets he twitted that an ACWS just had to happen in Hong Kong. Makes me wonder if the fact it didn't happen contributed to CT's demise.

 

The opposite may be true for ET, if there's anything to this one? Fingers crossed.

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So in this interview I think it is the author saying this not TT . The nerve of some people ;)

 

The big news for all Swedish sailing lovers is that the "Swedish Artemis Challenge" will take part in the Louis Vuitton Cup, the most prestigious sailing competition in the world after troubled American Cup. Första regattan är i Nice i november. The first regatta in Nice in November. Då är det ett proffs, inte Torbjörn Törnqvist, som står bakom rodret. Then it's a pro, not Torbjörn Törnqvist, who are behind the helm. Men han dyker kanske upp i sittbrunnen ändå. But he appears perhaps up to the cockpit anyway.

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FFS, check the date of the article

 

The secret oil billionaire

 

By: Erik Wahlin

Published September 25, 2009 13:47

 

The first Louis Vuitton Trophy was in Nice, November 2009

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FFS, check the date of the article

 

The secret oil billionaire

 

By: Erik Wahlin

Published September 25, 2009 13:47

 

The first Louis Vuitton Trophy was in Nice, November 2009

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Toooo Damned funny. I be got!!!

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FFS, check the date of the article

 

The secret oil billionaire

 

By: Erik Wahlin

Published September 25, 2009 13:47

 

The first Louis Vuitton Trophy was in Nice, November 2009

Oracle Racing had not yet won the Cup in November 2009.

 

AR did not challenge for the America's Cup until late 2010.

 

The article date may not be accurate. FFS yourself.

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Oracle Racing had not yet won the Cup in November 2009.

 

AR did not challenge for the America's Cup until late 2010.

 

The article date may not be accurate. FFS yourself.

 

The article date is accurate. Every thing in that article point to the article being written in 2009

 

By last summer, when sailing race Around Gotland. After an intense duel for three days, his Artemis defeated the infamous four minutes of Niklas Zennström boat Ran, which consequently won in storbåtsklassen Grand Open IRC.

 

Artemis beat Ran on the water by 4 minutes in the Gotland Runt in July 2009 but was 2nd on corrected time. That was TP52 Rans last race as they launched Ran II, the mini maxi, soon after.

 

Just such a direct investment came to be known now September. Lundin Petroleum announced that the Gunvor Group will be partners in the Russian Lagansky block, with the proviso that the Russian authorities approve the deal.

 

2 September 2009

 

LUNDIN PETROLEUM PARTNERS WITH GUNVOR IN THE LAGANSKY BLOCK, RUSSIA

 

Lundin Petroleum AB ("Lundin Petroleum") is pleased to announce that it has entered into an agreement with Gunvor Cyprus Holding Ltd, an entity in the Gunvor Group, ("Gunvor") under which Gunvor will acquire a 30 percent interest in the Lagansky Block, located in the Russian sector of the Caspian. Lundin Petroleum will hold the remaining 70 percent interest in the Lagansky Block.

 

 

Where in that article does it mention Oracle Racing or that Artemis has entered the Americas Cup. It talks about the Louis Vuitton Cup in Nice in November. That is meant to be Louis Vuitton Trophy in Nice in November 2009.

 

Face it Spinray, you were just plain wrong and your attempt to backtrack was pathetic.

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Can you share with us the valuable similarities between their small Tornado and big AC72 wings?

Sorry, cannot share anything on this. I am fortunate enough to get "insider" info from a few people in a few teams

 

Yea, same as us!

 

Look around you boy!

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^^ Okay fine, you proved it is old.

 

The link was posted today as being new, at a SF/Swede website, whose link I have since lost. Cayard addressed them last week, so I lent it some credence.

 

Again, mildly interesting regardless, TT does not often give interviews.

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on further reflection

 

if the main-spar failed at the join

 

the lower section of the wing should have remained standing

 

as the lower stays attach just below the join...

 

so it may have more likely failed

 

just below the lower stays, inadequate carbon strength in the spar just below the stay area

 

or a lower spar stay mount pulled free..., inadequate carbon strength or bonding at the mount...

post-23477-073888000%201338979220_thumb.jpg

 

If I remember correctly the designations on the photo were mistaken. There is no 'fairing', the wing-spar is 'D' shaped.

 

 

 

 

2d94htf.jpg

 

amdw6u.jpg

 

 

Load paths....

12_018480_OrmaWing_firstsail.JPG.jpg

 

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as you say

 

thanks for the correction

 

i can imagine twisting a box section with hydraulics reasonably easy and sort of get a feel of where the loads are going to be

 

but a D section...............

 

that:s going to be loaded right across and around the forward face

 

and then there's a whole lot hanging off the back and 3? sets of stays bonded in there too....

 

i wonder if twist is going to be worth it...

 

 

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They are in Spain. Kings Marine are in Valencia.

 

The hulls were built in Sweden by Kings Marine staff then trucked to Kings Marine in Valencia where they were completed and the rest of the components built and assembled then disassembled and trucked to the Artemis base.

 

Looks like Artemis are at about the same stage as TNZ who are about to take delivery of their AC72 and assemble it on base. The one difference is TNZ will have a wing to play with. :lol:

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Looks like Artemis will be on a schedule like Luna Rosa - possible September launch.

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I wonder if TNZ's platform has arrived to the base yet? GD had mentioned mid-month in the recent RG video interview, could be close.

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Looks like Artemis are at about the same stage as TNZ who are about to take delivery of their AC72 and assemble it on base. The one difference is TNZ will have a wing to play with. :lol:

Isn't the big difference about Artemis having already sailed with their wing in a wide range of conditions (up to 25 knots) and now know the failure point of their wing. ETNZ haven't got a clue how their wing will work or whether it will even stay together!

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Hopefully NZ's wing lasts better than AR's did; but AR may have the time benefit regardless, none of their earlier wing time having counted against the limit.

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Looks like Artemis are at about the same stage as TNZ who are about to take delivery of their AC72 and assemble it on base. The one difference is TNZ will have a wing to play with. :lol:

Isn't the big difference about Artemis having already sailed with their wing in a wide range of conditions (up to 25 knots) and now know the failure point of their wing. ETNZ haven't got a clue how their wing will work or whether it will even stay together!

Not really. By the time Artemis splash their AC72 TNZ and Oracle will have had wing time on an AC72 with a real set of data to work with pertaining to an AC72 not data on a hull the wing was never designed for.

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I wonder if TNZ's platform has arrived to the base yet? GD had mentioned mid-month in the recent RG video interview, could be close.

 

Dalts said they were pretty much committed to a public launch on the 21st July. There have been trucks arriving at the tent but nothing big. That will probably happen at night and the webcam stops recording at 7pm.

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Yes, caught that too, but he said that once everything had been prefitted at Cooksons then if it all worked out, then it would go to the Viaduct mid-June.

 

Am wondering why they have a Saturday night launch scheduled. For a good light-show publicity event, maybe? Could be pretty cool.

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What would be the righting moment difference between an ORMA 60 and an AC72? Weight and beam are the critical items, anyone got these?

 

This determines the loads on the mast, in particular the compression.

 

Could this have been a mistake in the basic structure calcs of the wing, rather than a twist experiment gone wrong?

 

Max righting moment is the limit and that occurs the instant the leeward hull is taking all the weight, you can't load it up any more than that no matter the wind speed, apart from adding rig tension.

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ORMA

Beam = ~60 feet (18.4m)

Weight = ???

Righting Moment = ???

 

AC72

Beam = 14m

Weight = 5.9 tonnes

Righting Moment = 82.6 t.m

 

 

 

It's gonna have to weigh less than 4.4 tonnes to match the righting moment. With an extra hull is that weight even possible despite being a fraction shorter?

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I suspect part of the many changes made to the ORMA was matching it as closely as possible with regards to righting moments etc. With cat training days limited by the rules I'd expect to see the tri being used right up to the main event (expect to see it in the states) so that wings can be tested and modified separately to the platform allowing the Artemis's boats to be far more refined and tested than the competition.

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^ Once you are flying on a 72' hull, there could be a lot to learn wing-wise, be it mounted on an AC72 or mounted on a custom-made Orma72 outer hull, also flying.

 

The degree to which how valuable that AR wing program has already been, is almost insignificant compared to the statement it has made about just how serious that syndicate's program is. AR is coming down the train track full on, Cayard and TT are not mincing any words either.

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if the wing compression loads were too much for the mast ball? pivot point

 

i guess it could have collapsed, dropped the wing a few feet and triggered an internal collapse

 

probably would have been a dirty big hole boat tho....

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To all the Match Racing purists:

 

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

 

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

 

(running and ducking)

 

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.

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To all the Match Racing purists:

 

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

 

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

 

(running and ducking)

 

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.

 

Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

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To all the Match Racing purists:

 

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

 

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

 

(running and ducking)

 

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.

 

Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

That's simple if you've been paying attention - he yells more than Jimmy and DB.

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To all the Match Racing purists:

 

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

 

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

 

(running and ducking)

 

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.

 

Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

That's simple if you've been paying attention - he yells more than Jimmy and DB.

 

Actually it pays to suck at fleet racing, something Artemis does extremely well.

 

With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

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To all the Match Racing purists:

 

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

 

What's your analysis? Does DB need a faster boat than TH has? Is there any guarantee that he'll get it?

 

(running and ducking)

 

Newport could get fierce on that front too, DB already suggested it.

 

Why is TH kicking JS's ass in AC45 MR events?

That's simple if you've been paying attention - he yells more than Jimmy and DB.

 

Actually it pays to suck at fleet racing, something Artemis does extremely well.

 

With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

Then apparently JS didn't get the memo in SD.

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To all the Match Racing purists:

 

Why is TH kicking DB's ass in AC45 MR events?

 

What's your analysis?

 

Since there's no TV coverage and no journalistic coverage, feck knows. The only match race I've seen lately had coverage beginning when TH had already established a pre-start controlling position which was held to the finish. So that wasn't all that enlightening.

 

I wouldn't take 1 race sudden death elimination events too seriously anyway.

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With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

 

Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?

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With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

 

Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?

 

Pretty simple, his team lost so it must be flawed, even though he wished his team never entered this event.

 

Actually they didn't enter for about 6 months. We just heard a litany of excuses as to why.

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With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

 

Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?

 

Points have everything to do with it.

 

seed 1 races seed 8 in the QF. If seed 8 wins then seed 1 gets MR points for 8th place and seed 8 moves to the semis

 

seed 4 races seed 5 in the QF. If seed 5 wins then seed 4 gets MR points for 5th place and seed 5 moves to the semis

 

seeds 4 or 5 are guaranteed MR points for a minimum of 5th place.

 

Prior to San Diego the top 2 seeds were automatically placed in the semis and the other seeds fought out for a place in the semis.

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With the sudden death match racing format that was bought in at San Diego it pays to be either 4th or 5th in the seeding fleet race as you have a guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing.

 

Huh? It's an elimination event. What have points got to do with it?

 

Pretty simple, his team lost so it must be flawed, even though he wished his team never entered this event.

 

Actually they didn't enter for about 6 months. We just heard a litany of excuses as to why.

 

Nobody gives a fuck about the WSL45 series. Ask the same questions in 2013 when the real event is under way.

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seed 1 races seed 8 in the QF. If seed 8 wins then seed 1 gets MR points for 8th place and seed 8 moves to the semis

 

Yes I realise how the seedings work. What you said that makes no sense to me was:

 

"guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing."

 

It's not points-based, it's elimination-based.

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seed 1 races seed 8 in the QF. If seed 8 wins then seed 1 gets MR points for 8th place and seed 8 moves to the semis

 

Yes I realise how the seedings work. What you said that makes no sense to me was:

 

"guaranteed 6 or 7 points in the match racing."

 

It's not points-based, it's elimination-based.

 

I am talking about Match Racing Championship points which are added to the Fleet Race Championship point to get an overall event winner.

 

winner of Match Race gets 10 MR Championship points

2nd - 9 points

etc

8th - 3 points

 

The Quarter Finals are

 

QF1 1st seed vs 8th seed loser gets 3 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 1

QF2 2nd seed vs 7th seed loser gets 4 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 2

QF3 3rd seed vs 6th seed loser gets 5 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 2

QF4 4th seed vs 5th seed loser gets 6 Match Race Championship points winner to Semi 1

 

Semi1 loser gets 7 Match Race Championship points winner to Final

Semi2 loser gets 8 Match Race Championship points winner to Final

 

Final loser gets 9 Match Race Championship points

Final winner gets 10 Match Race Championship points

 

Seeds 4 and 5 are guaranteed to get 6 Match Race Championship points if they lose QF4 which is the maximum points you can get without going into a Semi and winner of QF4 is guaranteed a minimum of 7 Match Race Championship points if they lose their Semi.

 

Seeds 1,2 or 3 have the most to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.

 

I know I would want to go into the Match Race seeded 4th or 5th because you have the least to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.

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I know I would want to go into the Match Race seeded 4th or 5th because you have the least to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.

 

Fair enough although like pretty much everyone else, I couldn't care less about series points.

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I know I would want to go into the Match Race seeded 4th or 5th because you have the least to lose as far as Match Race Championship points go.

 

Fair enough although like pretty much everyone else, I couldn't care less about series points.

 

I think you will find the ACWS teams care. At the end of the day it is Trophy in the cabinet and bragging rights.

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I think you will find the ACWS teams care.

 

If that were true they would have been spending time and money practising in Valencia over the winter. Which, it seems, nobody very much did.

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I think you will find the ACWS teams care.

 

If that were true they would have been spending time and money practising in Valencia over the winter. Which, it seems, nobody very much did.

 

TNZ shipped their AC45 to NZ for our summer and trained here along with Luna Rossa who then did further training in Italy. Oracle shipped their AC45's back to SF and trained there and Artemis trained on their AC45 in Valencia.

 

And the top teams are?

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TNZ shipped their AC45 to NZ for our summer and trained here along with Luna Rossa

 

Not what DB said, which was that there had been no significant training by TNZ in AC45s between SD and Naples. Interviewed in Naples IIRC.

 

But if you want to continue arguing that TNZ cares deeply about ACWS, be my guest. It seems curiously at odds with your general Weltanschauung.

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^ DB said again in the video just yesterday they hope to win the season championship. GD has in the past said that if he had the extra budget, that he'd run two boats in it. And both have said they wished Auckland had gotten an event.

 

But it's not an either/or, either TNZ does care about winning or they do not care; they do care, but not at the cost of the Big Picture. You give and take what you can from the WS and try to win while at it, but you balance it with for example the SL testing - which for sure took priority whenever on the schedule.

 

PC has said they are considering entering their second AC45; perhaps the construction delay will affect the decision one way or another.

 

LR is all over it. Haven't done the math but in accumulated points from over just Naples and Venice both boats must be doing pretty well in those standings - especially Draper/Piranha.

 

For Energy it's a huge deal for proving themselves to sponsors, the frers amplify that constantly.

 

RC hasn't helmed since Plymouth but did very well; could be in the mix this time too. Outteridge could also be in the thick of it, this being his second event.

 

These guys are all highly competitive. They will most definitely be trying to win. ETNZ included.

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For Energy it's a huge deal for proving themselves to sponsors, the frers amplify that constantly.

 

LP was also asked whether they had practised between SD and Naples. The answer was "non".

 

I was really surprised that teams didn't take the opportunity for training and two-boat tuning in Valencia. I fully expected them to and that they did not speaks volumes.

 

Of course the sailors will be highly motivated to win because that's what they do. That isn't the same as saying the teams - as financial/managerial enterprises - are taking the ACWS series competition seriously.

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^ Can't think of any team's management not taking it pretty seriously, TNZ included. But it it floats your boat to think it, then .. :) Again, so long as the AC72 work is not affected by it, they will take what they can from the WS, which does not involve their designers and builders anyway.

 

Newport being the finale for Season 1 does help make this event more interesting. Just 4 points separate ORS and ETNZ, it could be decided only on Sunday July 1.

 

Once the first 72s have been launched then Yes, some teams may find further WS events more distracting than useful, along some team factors.

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But it it floats your boat to think it, then .....

 

My boat is presently ashore on the Hard of Reality. It is your craft that floats on the Ocean of Wishful-ness.

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ORMA

Beam = ~60 feet (18.4m)

Weight = ???

Righting Moment = ???

 

AC72

Beam = 14m

Weight = 5.9 tonnes

Righting Moment = 82.6 t.m

 

 

 

It's gonna have to weigh less than 4.4 tonnes to match the righting moment. With an extra hull is that weight even possible despite being a fraction shorter?

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For RM calculation, consider half the width ( actually a touch more as the center of beyonce is not on cl of hull) as the CoG is likely to be at the centeline of the boat. Add to this the crew weight * total width.

Ac 72 RM : 5.9 * 7.2 + 1.2*14 : 59 T.m

 

Orma 60 : say 6 T and 18 m wide : 6*9 : 54 T.m. Add crew RM, some on main hull, some on ww float

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For RM calculation, consider half the width ( actually a touch more as the center of beyonce is not on cl of hull) as the CoG is likely to be at the centeline of the boat. Add to this the crew weight * total width.

Ac 72 RM : 5.9 * 7.2 + 1.2*14 : 59 T.m

 

Orma 60 : say 6 T and 18 m wide : 6*9 : 54 T.m. Add crew RM, some on main hull, some on ww float

 

oops, you're right.

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While snooping around Artemis's new digs in Alameda today I saw this bad boy.

 

I think it belongs to this guy.

post-34764-042000000 1340398930_thumb.jpg

post-34764-022887600 1340398989_thumb.jpg

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Interesting in the Newport photos that the front section of artemis's wing has gone from clear to black. Wonder if there are some new sponsor stickers to be applied.

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Interesting in the Newport photos that the front section of artemis's wing has gone from clear to black. Wonder if there are some new sponsor stickers to be applied.

 

Sea Tow perhaps ?

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No license plate on the Maserati?

 

Maybe it's on the back of the car!!

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No license plate on the Maserati? And the BMW, a rather moderate model.

 

Maybe it was stolen...the car, that is. unsure.gif

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While snooping around Artemis's new digs in Alameda today I saw this bad boy.

 

I think it belongs to this guy.

 

 

I guess being a sailor mercenary isn't such a bad gig...

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